 So, welcome everybody to the first of a week of webinars from the Open Ed SIG supported by ALT and ALT's infrastructure, so we're very grateful that we can offer these opportunities for people to come and get together and talk about open education and matters of education and outreach that are really important. So, we're going to look today, the focus will be on the future, what's next for GISC and UK OER in a postural world, but before I get that started I just want to make sure that all the technicalities are sorted and everybody can hear us, can't really access a webinar if you can't hear or see what's going on very well, so let's just go through this. If you haven't done this already can you please check your audio setup, so this is the little menu at the top left hand side, tools, audio and then the setup wizard, that will make sure that not only can you hear us but should you wish to you can also speak to the rest of us as we go through. Your audio settings can also be accessed here if you need to turn anything up or change anything and certainly a headset with a mic is probably the best way of making sure that you can hear us and for participation we have a chat panel, please do participate and join in, I know this sort of session perhaps doesn't lend itself very well to open chat but do chat using the text chat and we will pick up any questions and things and return to them, it will help us to do that if you just prefix a question with a Q and you can of course message people individually through the interface, through the participant interface there as explained. If you have any technical issues just send a link there to, just send a message there to the moderators and we'll do our best to resolve those and we're still getting people joining so we'll just give everybody a chance to run their audio setup wizard. Hopefully you've seen and I will post right now the link to our main web page, so this is our static web page that sits on the alt pages and hopefully you've seen that we've got a run of webinars this week so today we have one, we have another one on Wednesday and another one on Thursday and lots of excitement building towards the OER 16 so hopefully you'll be able to join us for all of those, everything will be recorded so the recordings will be available and we're also in the process, Terry has been working very hard on this, we're also in the process of adding some additional ways of building the community and Martin Horksy from ALT has helped us set up a buddy press site so more news with that later and keep an eye out on that open ed sig, keep an eye out there for the announcements that are just starting to come out and that will be as a work in progress at the moment but it will form a really exciting and interesting new way for us to connect. So the webinars, yes, Monday, Wednesday and I think Thursday rather than Friday but I'm just going to check that first because you may be wrong and I could rather be wrong. Let's have a little look and double check that because I know there's one that I can't make. So the 7th to 9th and the 11th which is indeed Friday. Great. Okay, Siobhan, let's move to your first slide and hand over to you, I know everybody's very keen to hear all about what's going to happen next or where we are and what the future holds. Okay, thank you, Theresa. Yes, I think I've set myself quite an ambitious title there so I will do my best to answer it as best I can but anyone who's read the brief about today's webinar will know that I'm also going to address where Joram is currently up to. I'll just move the slide along. Okay, so there are a number of questions that I think today I will aim to answer. So where are we currently up to in terms of the process of retiring Joram? So I'm going to talk about that. We also want to explain what a retirement Joram will look like and obviously what it won't look like. So I think it's important for people to realise what will actually happen when the service is gone. Importantly, and this is what we were asked to answer a lot about when the announcement was first made about what will happen to the resources, so I'll spend some time talking about that and then I'll finalise the webinar with talking a little bit about the Just Content and App Store. Okay. So if I begin with the timeline of where we are so far. So it's hard to believe that it's nine months ago since the announcement was made to retire the Joram service and the team have been working feverishly away to some extent to carry out a number of activities to see that retirement process come about. That's largely been focusing on the content and what we do with the resources, but we've also worked on coming up with a list of alternative platforms. We've always been aware that Joram wasn't the only platform, but we wanted to include that on Joram with the news of the retirement, so that was made available in October and it may well be that that list is continued post-Joram. And then through the autumn, we really started to look at the content in detail and how we could make decisions about the content, you know, was it all worthwhile moving out of Joram and into some new solution or was it an opportunity to maybe weed out some content that was no longer of use for various reasons and in some cases some very good reasons. I think weeding of collections is something I'm very aware of with my former library background, so that's how we approached that side of Christmas. So we weren't able to make a number of significant decisions that did rule out a lot of content from Joram and having made that decision, we then added that information to each and every resource in Joram in January this year, so every resource now has an indicator on it, so it's a red for not to be migrated, it's a green for to be migrated and an amber for a decision still to be made. So yeah, as I said, so through the autumn, we had a problem basically. So there are over 16,000 resources in Joram, so even if the team had the expertise to assess every single one of those resources, you know, we simply would not have had the time to actually make a decision on each resource. And when I say how do we get 16,000 down to zero, that's not us trying to get rid of any content as purely us trying to make a decision about where that content should exist in the future post-Joram. So we were able to make some early decisions, and I'll show those now. And some of them were certainly very valid from my point of view and from, you know, the team's experience of working with open educational resources for a number of years. So the first one I determined was web links, and we have nearly five and a half thousand web links in Joram, believe it or not, and the reason for dismissing these from here on in is the fact that when they fail, they give a very per user experience, you know, the resources are not actually held in the repository, which I think is what a repository should be for. It should actually hold the content, you know, so that's sort of a lesson learned from Joram. Let's not allow that to happen anymore. So we were able to rule that out pretty quickly. So you'll see that any resource currently in Joram that's a web link will have a red no migration indicator. Then we also thought about restrictive licenses, you know, and anyone who's in the webinar today who attended OER 15 last year and heard Cable Green's talk about the sort of the sort of the spectrum of open that the Creative Commons licenses actually talk about, you know, and there is a spectrum there. One end of it is, I think in many people's opinions, including ours in Joram, truly open and therefore suitable for open educational resources on the other end. And I'm talking about those licenses that have, you know, non-derivatives in it or not. And if they're attributed to an open educational resource, then it's not in the true spirit of OER. You know, David Wiley has talked about the four or even the five hours of openness. So again, this was an opportunity going forward of no longer allowing that kind of content to, you know, be called open educational resources because if you can't remix it in any way, then it's not really OER. There were another, there were other licenses within Joram that, you know, there were slight anomalies with them, and again, that's over 500 resources. But as you can see from this diagram, that's still left over 8,500 resources that we still needed to make a decision on. But nevertheless, that is what the current indicators are based on at the moment. So most of them are amber at the minute. And I also mentioned in that timeline that we had a, oh, sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself. This is a current resource in Joram, so it's actually one of my previous webinars. And because it's Joram specific, there's certainly no need to migrate it into a new solution. So this is what one of the indicators actually looks like. Yeah, sorry, I mentioned that in the timeline that we had a decision tree. So this is currently on our website at that address. We have a section on the Joram website where we put all the information about the retirement, as you can see there. So this is part of the content assessment work. And this just describes the decisions or how we've come to the decisions about the resources so far. And as we make more and more decisions, we'll add to this. So anyone who looks at a resource and wonders why we've made that decision, then this decision tree will hopefully help you realize why that is the case. Okay, so next is where I think the remaining timeline for Joram is going to come. So our next steps, and we've been working on this since January, is to determine the rest of the content and make a decision on it. And so we will have that completed by the end of April. So every resource in Joram will be identified as either migrating or not migrating. And at some point, it's a tentative date, say, of June, but at some point, once the discontent in AppStore is up and running and available for deposits, then maybe there will be a month's grace where we'll allow Joram deposits to continue, and at some point we'll end that ahead of 30 September. So I think it seems to make sense to tie it in maybe around June, because of this sort of academic year. Okay. So as I said, we've been working since January, or rather my colleague, Pete Collins, who's on the call today as well, so he's there to answer any more detailed questions about some of our decisions that we've made so far. We've made some positive decisions about content that we want to migrate. So our undecided has got significantly less, which is good for us. So some of the content we identified so far includes the Information and Digital Literacy Skills Collection. And the reason for that is that the collection was created in November 2013, and it started with approximately 50 resources. And since that date, there are nearly 200 resources in there. And so over 150 resources have been created in just that short space of time. So they're very current and they're very good quality. So assuming it met all the other criteria, it wasn't a web link, it didn't have a restrictive license. You know, we gave it the green light to be migrated. So that's how we've identified our next approach. And it's quite an iterative process. We haven't started the content assessment process knowing exactly how we were going to get to zero. It's only through examining what we've got, and we've never examined the Joram content in this much detail ever before because we've simply not had the time. So it's only when we really get under the bonnet, if you like, of what's in Joram that we're able to make some decisions about what to migrate and what not to migrate. So we're going to continue that process throughout the rest of March and April to get the remaining just over 4,000 resources down to zero. So we're probably going to take a collection by collection approach. We're also going to look at maybe file types, other things like that. And as I'll explain in the later stages of the presentation, there are other things that we might look at as well that the content store might require. So there's just an indication of what those resources will look like currently. So that's the AMBER indicator, as you can see. So to be decided. Okay. So what will a retired Joram look like? Those of you who are familiar with JISC will probably be aware that there have been a number of changes in the last three to four years. There have been another number of organizations such as the regional sports centers, JISC like this, just legal, that have been subtuned into JISC. And MIMIS is also one of those areas, and that's where the Joram team comes from. So MIMIS used to have its own website, but when that was sort of closed following the move into JISC, the web address was moved to this page that you can see here. So if you put in MIMIS.ac.uk, this is the page you now come to. So basically, when Joram is closed, and you type in the www.joram.ac.uk address, you'll come to a very similar page. It will not look like the Joram website at all, it will be a JISC page that tells you what has happened as a result of this decision. So we may keep some of the content because there are a number of really good support guides available on Joram. Obviously, we won't keep anything that's Joram specific, but we have some really good guides about attributing Creative Commons licenses, citing Creative Commons licenses and just using them, as well as OER content creation tools. So we'll try and keep that kind of content as guides within the JISC website, so we may well point to them from here. And you'll be able to see an archive of the original website, or sorry, the website as it was when it was closed. What we will also have on this page is an archive of the Joram content. But what that is is it will not allow any kind of browsing or searching. You won't be able to pick content from it. The intention of that is if anyone wants to get all of the content from Joram and add it to a repository, then they can do that. But it's not going to be an accessible entity for individuals trying to get their own resources in some way, or anybody else trying to get resources. Okay, so just going back to answer a bit further about what will happen to the resources in Joram then. So as I said already, by the end of April, a resource will either have a green indicator, as you can see here, to be migrated or have a red will not be migrated. All the ambers will have gone. So what that will mean is for the green resources, that means they will be migrated to the JISC content in that store. So they'll be available at some point ahead of the 30th of September already on the store. But they'll also be available for download until Joram closes, and they'll be available on that archive that I just mentioned. The difference with the red indicated resources is it will not be migrated to the JISC content in that store, but the other two availabilities apply. Okay, and what I would say is if by the end of April, so we do intend to have some other public announcement about the status as they are then, and we'll be contacting depositors directly where we have their details. If any depositors have any issues with, say, the resources, even if they don't want it migrated, in fact, but if they've got any issue with their resource not being migrated, then please do get in touch with us. And that goes for users of content as well. Even if you're not the author, we will try and work with the OER community to ensure that resources that are liked, used, useful, that we will maintain them. Okay, so finally now, just going to briefly talk about the new JISC content in that store. So this has been developed by another department within JISC, so completely outside of and separate to the Joram team. It originated, I think, about a year and a half ago out of JISC's summer of student innovation program. So what that is, is a sort of a Dragon's Den type scenario where students sort of pitch ideas and then work with JISC to get them developed. So our colleagues in JISC Futures wanted to provide some sort of platform to enable that development and facilitate it and promote it, and this is where the App Store idea sort of originated. So the idea of providing content evolved after that and from that to become this new idea of having a shop window for all of JISC products. And when we said products, we mean apps. We might mean services, content services and things like that. So as well as the Joram content that will be in the content in App Store, there will also be content around digital capabilities, which will mean you might be aware of digital leadership. Okay, so some store features then. So some very standard expectations in this day and age and standard as they are, there were still things that Joram, in its present state, could never actually fulfill or at least not at all easily. But, you know, reviews rating the recommendations will certainly be there as you would imagine from any App Store experience. Anyone who's used the Apple Store or Google Play Store, you know, will know what to expect from that kind of experience. And equally, anyone who's used those sites will know, you know, that they're very image heavy, but very metadata light, so that will also be important. So again, when I said about there would be certain other conditions that we'll have to try and meet with the store is the ability to present images of the content. So maybe some thumbnails of a screenshot and things like that are the resource to give people an idea of whether or not they want to download it to use it. You know, again, that's been something that we've been asked for for a long time in Joram, you know, to make it more visually appealing. But it'll also have this ability to create playlists. And again, a Joram nice to have feature that we always wanted was the sense of having an almost, not quite a mini MOOC, but, you know, a mini course where you could link your own content together in a sort of program of study if you wanted, whether as a learner or as a tutor in some way. So I think those playlists will be a nice feature. Two of the other things that are going to be quite different with the store or the latitude here, this open source software approach and a governance-modeled content. Like I said, the Joram team are not directly involved with the development of the content store, but we did have a very useful meeting with our future colleagues back in November. And during that meeting, we had a workshop where we were able to feed in what we felt of the Joram team were the requirements of the OER community. And I think I'm not speaking out of turn for the rest of the team, but we sort of came out of that session with a sense of, you know, we're kind of designing the best version of Joram that we could have come up with. So this idea of the open source software approach and Pete and myself will be speaking at OER 16 next month in a bit more detail, well, as much detail as a 15-minute slot will allow us, but we'll be specifically talking about the open source software approach. And for anyone who doesn't know what that means, I'm not an expert myself, but it will enable users to sort of take a resource and fork off and create their own version of it, you know, and they could resubmit that and it become part of a bigger or better version of the resource. So, you know, the new store will facilitate versioning, which again is something that Joram could never do, but our community wanted. And finally, the governance models content. So what we want to do is put a lot more ownership on the authors to sort of own their content and manage their content. What we want to avoid with the store is that you don't have this dump and run mentality where content is just dumped in the repository and totally forgotten about and never sees the light again or never gets updated or, you know, there's just no indication, apart from say a created date or an accession date as to how valid that resource still is. So that's going to be improved with the store. So that's pretty much as much as I know about this store, happy to ask questions or direct them to my future colleague as needed. But yeah, that's the end of the webinar. So if you've got any questions for me now, I'm happy to take those. I'm not sure what's coming through on the chat box. Yeah, probably. I'm through that in like a whirlwind. No, you've done an excellent job there. It was all very clear, Siobhan. Thank you very much. And there has been some chat going on in the text chat. So I'll come back and go through and return to some of that. If anybody would like to speak to Siobhan as well, just use the raise hands button. And we'll come back to that. Since some of the questions that were raised, I think you actually used to subsequently went on to answer. So I'm just going to come back and there we go. We've got someone wanting to speak. So let's just ask you to press your talk button to see which order those came up in. And sorry, just expand this. Make it a little bit easier to see everybody. OK, so we have some mics open now. So let's have a little look. Josie, would you like to press your talk button? Hi, can you hear me? Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Yes, I can hear you. Hi. So my question is around this community-owned platform model, which is a great way to go, I think. And in terms of the kind of ethos and vision for the open content and for open practice, it makes perfect sense. It's absolutely the right way to go. But what are the interim arrangements for making that happen? So you won't have a community turning up magically overnight. What are the kind of staffing and management arrangements for that transition and for managing that transition? That's a very good question, Josie. I don't have an exact answer. But I've been very much aware of trying to maintain the existing community from Joram and try and bring that into the new solution as best I can. So I've been working with a colleague just specifically who saw almost my equivalent to this project, so not the technical person. She's a lady called Cherie Footdring. I'll just put her name in the chat box because you'll be able to find her email online if anyone wants to get in touch with her. So I've been trying to bring her into these kind of the sort of softer discussions, if you like, about communicating with the community. So like I said, we're maintaining our OER presence to try and, our OER-16 presence, try and keep the community informed. That actually gives me a good idea because we're having one more Joram Steering Group next week. So actually that would seem to me a very good agenda item to get their advice on. Because unfortunately it is still quite early days in terms of that service coming online. I think it's going to be released as a beta possibly even this week. And that's the other change again with how our colleagues and just futures work and how Joram never quite worked in terms of it's no longer going to be the case that we sit on product services until they're perfect and then release them because then we just slip and slip and slip with the development. So I think what they want to do is get that beta out there and get feedback. So I think we'll probably be using the existing Joram channels to get that. So there is an element of trying to maintain the continuity there in terms of getting users involved. And again, like I mentioned, I certainly want some sort of overlap in terms of depositing. So people, hopefully people will be able to see how not easy it is to deposit in Joram and how much better and nicer and easier it is to deposit in the new solution. So it's not something that we haven't answered to just yet, Josie, but I'm very much aware that we need to support that transition. And it's a process that Jisk is also working through itself at the minute as well at a higher level of how we transition these big pieces of work that futures are creating and actually bring them into service. So we're kind of working on that process as well at the minute. So I think that they just come in and that store will actually be a bit of a test for that process. So we're going to learn a lot through doing that. Shavon, that's really helpful. I don't think any of us really could have imagined just how quickly, how quick the pace of change would be in terms of technological development. And I'm sure that has made a challenge in terms of sort of managing open resources. There's been quite a lot of discussion in the chat around one sole place of deposit or multiple places of deposit. My personal take is actually spread things around. It put them in multiple places because that's always going to make them more available. There's a question here from my co-chair on the Open Air to say, do we have an OER champion in Jisk? Shavon, I'm looking to you, really. Again, I think that leads on from no pressure. Well, I can say it's not me, I'm afraid, because I am going to be moving roles within Jisk, so it won't be me. But I think there is going to be a new sort of focus from within my area, my department, within just the digital resources. So there's going to be a refocusing in there. And I think at that point, we need to really think who's going to own the service. And I think that, again, like I said, that's part of the transition from futures into sort of a service mode for these things. And at that point, I think that's when the sort of product service manager will become that focal point. So I think there will be a role, and it will probably be that service manager as it has been me in the past. But yeah, because I know with OER and my title, I'm certainly looked to as the sort of OER contact within Jisk, which is obviously what it should be. But I think until we actually know who's going to take it on within our department, I can't answer that question initially. But it's good that these questions are coming up, because this is obviously where concerns are coming. So we'll be very much aware of this as we transition all the way through to September. That's really helpful. I think, yes, we're all a bit nervous about not knowing quite where things are going, but it's good to know that actually this is on the radar and this is something that's a live discussion. And just sort of scanning back to see if anybody has any further questions. Just click your talk button if you do want to ask Siobhan a question, and if she's able or her colleagues to help us with that. We'll be able to address it. We only have a little while left now. OK, so Liz, thank you. Liz is telling us in the text chat that there are a number of people in Jisk Subject Specialist teams who embrace OER and all things open. And that's great, isn't it? That's a good thing to know, because it's not all about the role. It's very much about an attitude towards education. Yes, because the service would only form one part of a bigger mandate around open education. So yeah, I fully agree with Liz's comment. Liz, do grab the mic if you want to. And Celeste. I've worked with Celeste up in Scotland on open badges and things like that. And I know that something we're keen to continue looking at is something like open badges for any new service. So yeah, the open education agenda is still strong in Jisk. I sound like a Star Wars geek now. As soon as you mention open badges, we have got an open badges conference in Southampton tomorrow. Great. So my colleagues attending from the week. I look forward to seeing lots of people down there, about 150 people coming along to talk about open badges in higher ed. There's a lot of very interesting links and useful links being exchanged in the chat. And just if people want to hang on to that, if you come to File and Save, you can save the chat and then you can access your links rather than having to sort of scour through them right now. So there's lots of good content here to return to. Yes, Josie. Sorry. I've just seen Tavis' question about Resource Share. So that's the service that we offer for College Development Network in Scotland that's based on the dorm infrastructure. The answer is we haven't actually discussed the future in any firm detail as yet, Tavis. But we will certainly be communicating that as soon as we do. I'm sure the College Development Network will communicate that through you as to what changes might occur. Great. Michael Travis says, anybody if you want to turn your mic on would be happy to hear you if you would rather do that than text. Yeah, I've just seen Michael's text as well. We only have one in the dorm window and that's the University of Leeds and again we'll be in discussions with them. Although what I would say, if anyone had been considering a dorm window at some point, going a bit technical now, it's technical as I can speak, there will be an API for the new content store. So people as with dorm before, they could build their own entities using that API and pull out what content they want for themselves. Right. Yes, there's some... Chelsea, I don't know if you'd like to come back on the issue you raised, which is really about, you know, we don't want to go backwards from what we've achieved. It all worked so hard and a few harder than Josie actually in Leicestershire to make the gains on open. But it's kind of reassuring to hear from Siobhan and colleagues that actually OER is very much an open practice is very much on people's minds and very much supported. You're very kind to say so. I appreciate that very much. What I mean, my concern at the moment is that, as we've said in the chat, that the situation, particularly for England at the moment in regards to open education and open education practice is grim in terms of political vision and leadership. And while I agree with your comment previously about the fact that, yes, we should be sharing resources in as many places as possible and we should be kind of distributing things and make, you know, that is a sensible way to go and that is taking full advantage of the actual benefits of the internet as well. My concern is that by decentralising access to OERs, we're also making the kind of fragile state of open education at the moment in England in particular much more vulnerable to being ignored. I think it's a huge concern for most people working in this area and I think the fact that Joram's going, you know, and I really, really appreciate all of the work that the team has been putting into providing a fantastic resource from the site, but it's not... It's very hard to take as an entirely positive thing. You know, lots of people previously used Joram as their first resource port of call for people and used it as an example of a brilliant OER repository and used it as an example of a really successful service that's UK-based. And if we haven't got that as an example, it's very sad, it's just something to lose. I'm really interested in the kind of longer term and securing the longer term gains that we've made as all of us as a community and I really, really do think at the moment that we need to step up in terms of political lobbying at the higher levels because there's very little going on, there's very little appreciation or understanding for the value of open education and there's no push for it at all at those levels. So I'm really, really keen to just understand that clearly because just do clearly understand the benefits of open educational practice and open educational resources and I would like to see them really pushing and lobbying hard to try and take that forward. Yeah, I think we absolutely share your concern. I think we're at a stage really as a community that we need to say for each one of us and everybody that we work with, open educational practice is each of us. So we need to lead by example, we need to model as many of you are actively doing, we need to model this behaviour, we need to spread it and we need to make this a grassroots movement and normalise it. So on to the behalf of the Open Ed SIG, and I know Viv's here as well, she hasn't got a mic at the moment because I know she shares my passion for open as well. We really want to normalise the exchange of discussion and debate around what open means and that's everything from what's open versus free and all the sort of very important discussions that we have to have in order to go from the overall idealistic concept of open to the pragmatics of how do we do it and how do we do it effectively. And what we're trying to do now this week in fact is to start building and strengthening that community by creating an area within the Open Ed SIG that will be a community-based, a body-press site that will enable people to blog and to comment and to discuss and just to grow the community and grow our visibility. You're absolutely right, we need to lobby at the top but unless in this age of austerity and everything else unless the top can see that actually we're prepared to put the legwork in, people are not going to waive funding and things like that around that just isn't the resource. Terry, thank you, just shared the first Open Ed SIG blog post link there in the text chat. So, yeah, we're starting this discussion off and we've got more things coming, everything's still in the process of going live so do take a look, do get active, do share your insights and Josie and many of those of you in this room have many things that you can share and bring. I don't know how others feel but often I find it quite disheartening when I talk to practitioners and they have no idea what Open Education is about and if there's any time when we should be getting that message over this week it's probably the best time we can seize, have discussions, get people to commit on our Open Ed web page we actually have a sign up there to commit to open so it's actually pledging your activity to the cause of Open Education. Josie, go ahead, sorry. Hi, sorry, thanks again. So, I've just opened up the page and it looks fantastic and it's a great start. Can you comment a little bit more about how you see the vision for this particular site as a hub because obviously in the UK we've got several organizations that are involved with Open Education and supported with Open Education including, you know, B-O-E-R, Open Scotland and the other organizations we've also got, you know, with Comedia, a lot of organizations. Is this being positioned as the kind of hub for the organizations that are going on across the UK because I think that is something that's really, really needed. I think we have to listen to the community on that so our idea is to make it as open and inclusive as possible. You don't have to be an alt member in order to access it so it certainly will be open in the true sense of Open. Whether it becomes a hub, you know, I mean, as many of us do, that actually putting things out there doesn't guarantee engagement so it's very much down to how people receive it and what they want to do. We certainly want to advocate and we certainly want to share people's evolving understanding of Open and what it means to us. So, you know, a blog post if I may be so bold to ask you, at this point, a blog post would be very welcome so that we could actually join these dots together. Does that help? Can I just make a point in response to some of Josie's comments? Yes, please do. I mean, I fully agree with you and I'm going back to the transition and things like that. I very much don't want the new solution to be like, I think, perhaps Jordan may have been guilty of or any repository of, you know, if you build a technical platform, they will come, you know, so you do need to attack this from both grassroots level and as Liz said, senior management, you know, it's not something that any of us can do alone. So, yeah, we do need to have to, we do need to centralise our efforts in some way. Yeah, I think, you know, I'd love it if this could step up and take that position because I understand what you're saying about, well, it's up to the community and how the community perceive things and there's obviously, you know, lots of different organisations involved in this space with lots of different priorities as well but there really does need to be a centralised organisation and it is not entirely how the community perceive it or want it to be, it's also how you're positioning yourself too and I know that you might want to not step on toes by positioning yourself in that way but surely between all of the organisations in the UK that are working in this sector, there can be some kind of agreement made to have a nominated centralised place so that people can actually talk to each other across organisations and coordinate actions and practices. Yeah, I think there's a kind of a natural fit, in a way, between the Alt Open Ed SIG and the OER conferences of course because every year those conferences reinforce the message and disseminate and extend so there is a natural fit but it is very much down to individuals and, you know, I think there's kind of, it's quite difficult to get through that perception if somebody puts something in front of you, the perception that it's something that someone else made that's external. We have to start somewhere, so we started with a buddy press site and we have some great facilities within that, we've only started really to make a few things available. So we're going to be very much listening to people and if you're on that on the GISC mail list or if you join the SIGS buddy space area as well, join in those discussions, it's yours, it's not ours, this is a community area. So the more we as individuals put in, the more all of us collectively get out. So, yeah, we want very much people to embrace this and shape it. I'll take your comments forward with GISC as well, just to see about taking more of a leadership in this area. That's great, thanks. I'm just taking a quick scan through the chat to see if there's anything I've missed but please folks, if you've got something to say and you don't feel you've been heard, take a mic and we very much welcome your voices. And Tavish, yes, thank you, talking about sort of getting nice visual examples of things that can be shared quickly and things that people understand, things that get to the heart of teaching and learning really and discussions around teaching and learning and I don't think you can really separate out certainly open educational practice and skills of teachers and teaching and learning. So, you know, for people to embrace teaching and learning and we're starting to see that I was at the GISC, TIGI Fest just the other day and much greater emphasis at last on practitioners. We need to connect practitioners and get ownership and something that Josie did I think very effectively in Leicester with getting policies that actually make it clear that you have the rights over the things that you create and you therefore can share those things and do something more with it. I think that's a very important message that we have to give back to people. Does anybody have another question or something they would like to bring back? I know some people have had to leave already and just don't want to wind up until we're absolutely sure that everybody's had their say or asked their question. Yes, I agree, Liz, sometimes people really do what's OER all about and I think that there is a danger around OER sitting in the R, sitting in the repository where things repose and actually what we want to see is things being actively used. So my mindset is more around OEP, I have to admit. So how does this work in practice? And absolutely we're looking forward to seeing people at OER 16 and yes, this will be there, facilitating debate, no doubt, around OER. So I'm just going to wind up the webinar with just a reminder for people that the OpenEd SIG is an open, supported by the infrastructure of ALT, is an open public group, a special interest group, mindful of the mission of open educational practice. You can tweet us and connect with us on the OpenEd or the OER Discuss Just Nails and of course on our website which is connecting up with the blog and greater work as well going on there, going forward. And there will be an OpenEd SIG session as part of OER 16. So thanks all very much for coming along today. I hope you're taking an active part in the rest of Open Education Week. Share the word, get the word out there. Grab the Open Education Week badge, put it on your websites, get it as visible as you can. And thank you all very much for your contribution and thank you very much Yvonne for really leading us through all the work that's been involved with the Joram and JISC transition. You're welcome. Bye bye everyone. Thank you all very much for coming. Have a great week and keep that OpenEd SIG hashtag going so we can continue to connect.