 Welcome back. It's all the breakfast and plus TV Africa wealth as you've been having in the news Reports even on the papers this morning Nigeria has been once again scored Not too high and quite low 24 points out of 100 points if you look at that if you write in an exam, I'm sure that will be an F while ranking 150 out of 80 180 countries in the 2022 corruption Corruption perception index annually released by transparency international. It was released yesterday morning Well, right here on set on the breakfast. Although the country maintained its previous ranking last year's ranking score of Rather its previous year's core of 2024 sorry out of 100 points. There was a change in a rank last year They were ranked 150 this year Niger ranked hundred and fifty four Rather last year Niger ranked the hundred and fifty four this year hundred and fifty and newly released index So it means the country has gone four places up now the corruption perception index is Transparency internationals tool for measuring the level of corruption in the systems of the 180 countries across the world based on certain prevalent Indices we should look at as we go down. What does this say about the fight against corruption in Nigeria? I'm glad to say joining us to analyze this is The country manager of accountability lab civil society organization in their accountability space all day Friday Good morning to you. Thank you very much for your time Thank you very much for this opportunity. All right, and you are at the the launch or the unveiling of this report Yesterday, I'll turn into a journalist for just a few minutes. What did transparency international say at that? unveiling of this this report Thanks. Good morning. Once again, Nigeria for this opportunity more interestingly. It's Excited to be part of the the panelist who had discussions for the corruption perception index reports for Nigeria Who have run? We'll have like a score of 24 Not necessarily moved up or down as the case may be But we have moved four points from 154 last year. It's 150 out of 180 countries We we as the technical working group for the corruption perception index For the Nigerian office one of the key things we have looked at designed by the corruption perception index This is more not like a perception of what Nigerians feel But this is an assessment of its indexes which one of these is the World Bank index which Which has been assessed and to get the the ranking for Nigeria and one key thing we looked at is Over the years, there's been pushback by the government on these issues as released by the corruption perception index for the ranking this is a global index and and Every country is being run according according to indexes which have been found out there in public sources just to aggregate the figures as the methodology provides for and see how Has been made in the space of a campaign in all the context around the world interestingly for For the whole team was this shows the progress made and how citizens perceive and nothing is done across board and To to understand it's it's something that shows the friend country if you look at the worst number If you look at the US they have been around TV you have look at UK So it's more around what has been done in terms of look at press conference look at open budgets look at all that other Stories is that shows how Nigeria's performed like it's how we handle high-profile corruption case the subsidy regime what has happened around the transparency around that so That's also fed back into the context of what happens on the corruption Asception index run. Are you there? Okay, yes, I think we have you back. So, yes, you can continue with the point you're making please So I must say like the corruption like this data from eight different day data sources Nigeria was part of and they also kick back and push back on the government area this index has been released And we Performed how the government Addressed the issue of press freedom how they've been using the accountability space There's been much progress which has done for too much activity which has been done around the context So if you look at other Scandinavian countries, they always come out like five of the countries in Scandinavia region always come up at the top top ten in the ranking So if you look at the systems you see open system, you see transparent system, you see Freedom of press you see the rule of law All right, we seem to be having some difficulty with the with the network connection I'll try and reach out to him and probably you will reconnect the zoom or we probably will Place a phone call to him and what if right? Are you there? And then you clearly okay fantastic and you know the government, you know perennially Always you know pushes back on Transparency internationals Corruption perception index On which Nigeria's consistently for the past decade or over a decade ranked low One of the things that we usually would hear from Probably the minister of information is that it is not a ranking of Corruption in the country, but the perception of certain people or perception of some people out there about How corrupt the country is that they don't go to take data on who stole what who stole what but they monitor things In media and take the perception of people out there on how corrupt countries are So if you agree with that view and if so and is it is it adequate enough to be able to Gauge how corrupt the country is with this report So I was just saying for me I strongly disagree with him Because this is not a perception of what happens out there in the media and though this out This are valid valid arguments which we can make on what happens around the progress being made by the current government Who has promised to fight corruption? We definitely put a phone call across to August this morning and Hopefully we can have a smooth conversation But the argument has always been whether The you know the reports and the perception is something to write him about is there a Correlation is that connection with what is reported and what it is? So if you look at Nigeria as a country now, we understand that the president Buhari's administration has been big on the the fight against corruption and is upon all of this argument that This administration came on board The fact that hey, we will fight against corruption, but all through the period you're almost going to see eight years now It hasn't been very pleasant It feels like we have gone down the statistics not entirely You know to the president just like you have mentioned because we have I mean Nigeria is not just centered around the president It cuts across different parts, you know of the country so different sectors There are too many indices or Yards they keep you like to say that are used to measure all of this So but you look at it really is this a true reflection of who we are Is this a true reflection of our countries that what it is if you look at the public sector if you look at Nigerians? Basically, you just walk on the streets or in the course of transaction. Just look at it in a holistic Manor is that what it is? These are some of the questions that we're hoping to get answers is this really I mean this statistics this report a true Reflection of who we are or day Friday's good to have you join us once again. Can you hear us? All right then So yes, this is what it is about Usually we've also had situations where the government would put out a different response And some people will say government speak is a government speak situation where government is Aspected to respond to all of this. I mean there's a body that's settled with our responsibility You know to manage the image of the government And what have you but not entirely that it you know? It's on the president, but you look at the fact that if you say We're going to fight against corruption. We're going to ensure that that's No, they fight it. Can you hear us? Yeah, so so the question is This report. I mean the reports that we have by These agencies is this a true reflection of Nigeria as we've had if you look at some of the Pointing where the finger point we have Strong high-profile individual cases which have been part of more like politically exposed persons Which whose case is if you look at the former governor of the state and how the case was handled if you look at high-profile Corruption case and recovery of testing done from from the former account and general office Federation also looking at the issue with a former acting chairman of the economic and financial crimes Commission The issues around the software regime the OSF lack of accountability and transparency in the security sector Constituency project by legislators, which lacks every form of accountability Projects being implemented which shows instead of these documents for the people. They have been branded by Intended by a politician, which is not the situation Also have clearly the issues of judicial challenges, which we need to address the Nigerian judiciary Challenges facing tracking corruption in Nigeria. This was highlighted in which so numerous election-related post-processing differently Different politically exposed persons stops the controversial orders from the cause to perpetrate actions, which were against the public interest of citizens So if you analyze all of this and look at the context of what the corruption perception index would Present you will see that the ranking of Nigeria Is is not we are not doing too well But we one of the things that the corruption perception index produce or provides for is to see that the Nigerian government Improves on accountability good governance and transparency So we can all have the dividends of democracy and also I'll do the issue of public funds So this is what for me, I feel This of course you've said that the the CPI would enable government access itself and improve on its processes and then fight against corruption and Looking at the fact that in the 2022 corruption perception index by the Transparency International Nigeria scored 100 24 points around 154 out of 180 countries having dropped several places down about five places down the ranks From 2020 but in 2022 in 2020 report Nigeria has moved four places up from 154 to from 150 to 150 from 154 to 150. Sorry Would you say that at least in the last 12 months Nigeria has corruption has become has reduced in the country Let's give it as simple as that. Thank you. Just to provide a clarity on some clarity around how this works The report Nigeria scored 24 out of 100 points. So every country is based on a score Nigeria has caused 24 out of 100 points in the 2022 CPI, which means other countries I'm not sure of the other countries, but other countries are also on that power 24 points But if you look at the ranking out of 100 and 80 countries Nigeria has ranked 150 out of 180 countries in what in 2021 we've ranked 154 out of 180 countries as well, but we have moved up the ranking. So of the ranking when you talk about The score our score has been stagnant across instance one and 22 points, but we've moved up meaning One being the highest. So the best country according to the ranking would be number one Why the least would be number 80? So from 154 to 150 looks like first good movement, but in the entirety you still have those challenges which looks at part of the part of the Progress has looked we've looked at the passage of key legislation Talking about the electoral act talking about the process of crime and management act 2022 and also the money laundering and prevention and prohibition Some of this legislation has also strengthened the system So there's been progress to see that Legislations are there, but however, looking at the other side of it the implementation of it is what we are also clamoring for and saying For Nigeria to move up the rank and do better We have to also put more effort to ensuring these have been implemented to ensure like We all have corruption around the world Is not something you can eliminate under under 24 hours or even in a lifetime But there should be progress according to implementation of laws which are there, but you have high profile corruption cases Politically exposed person which are always bending our laws and well, I'm not sure I want to delve into that Maybe another conversation on another day, but we need to strengthen and resolve that anti-corruption agencies And the strength in despite we start without political influence so they can actually do their job so one of the challenges also the influence of Politics that have to do with the anti-corruption fight. Um, yeah for me, I think Nigeria has done good We can still do better Very quickly before Mexico was just a quick one um The the current administration Uh, let the apc let federal government, you know, uh before it came into power and relied on I mean this corruption perception Index that data presented to fiercely Criticize the then ruling people's democratic party led federal government In the campaigns of 2014 They were saying look at how corrupt the country is and they cited the cpi But they've been in power and uh, you know, it's an old ritual that Um, lie Mohammed minutes of information and culture would criticize the report and reject it um What do Nigerians need to To to take do with this report as far as the forthcoming elections are concerned in terms of who they vote for at the various levels And what do the candidates also need to do with this information as they prepare In of those who win to take the reins of power in 2023 that you pose this question And one of the foundations for me to also pose to Nigeria is looking at the 2023 election and the political candidates or Presidential aspirants who are out there If you put all of them at the same part of which they are from across the political parties You find Little or none of them is even talking about accountability and this is a priority for development of Nigeria Yes, we want a new Nigeria one To build new roads. We want to do education and health sector. You want them to improve but we also have to tackle this issue of The cpi some of the points at which we have looked at I'm not going to base this conversation on just on the corruption perception index But if you look at all that for other indexes or ranking across across the globe, there is the global justice Global world justice project just about the globe. Um, what's it called now the It's about the the rule of law index. Sorry the rule of law index He looked at countries of government powers absence of corruption open government fundamental rights Order and security regulatory enforcement people justice and criminal justice how Nigeria has fed across Um across these indexes I mean look at that for the world just the rule of law index Nigeria ranks 180 118 Out of 140 countries if you move on to the next of the index of public integrity Nigeria ranks 102 out of 114 countries for the transparency index Nigeria around 71 out of 129 countries. Nigeria the Nigerian government Needs to look closely at these indexes and how we can improve generally Um, when we talk about these issues, they are based on the condition We can also see mismanagement of funds. We cannot see the oil subsidy regime the oil subsidy and all of that You can also see, um, what has happened across Government institution how they need to how they need to be spending to actually implement their mandate What political influences has also reduced the value which we find in this organization So it's imperative like to see that Nigeria needs to push through for 2023 to ensure Accountability is a foundation for most of our conversations to ensure that the Nigeria we want The Nigeria we all want to see the developments. We want to see the events of democracy It's found in some of this commitment Um by the first dose for political condition is another conversation for another day Oh, yes, accountability transparency and good governance should be the foundation Punishment discussion for 2023 and how we should approach issues Going forward the corruption in fascist perception index is one of those indexes or one of those striking Globally, we show like more work needs to be done and more effort needs to be put into Fighting corruption. We have to go now. But just quickly I'd like you to speak to what the impact of this report Is on the ongoing fight. I mean as long as we have president Muhammad the Buhari is president Then the fight against corruption is ongoing. So what exactly is the impact of this report on the fight against corruption? The Nigerian government has always had a pushback for the corruption perception index reports, which has been released on the yearly basis Um, and for me, I just feel this is an opportunity I'm in 2021. We had the ministry of justice who had responded To some of the findings in previous years, like you mentioned in 2019 2015 These were basic foundations to improving our system. But now it looks like a back and forth argument with two friends who are fighting Oh, yes, the corruption perception index just provides an opportunity for improvement in systems in strengthening systems and structures And we all agree that we have these positions in Nigeria This is an opportunity for Nigeria and the Nigerian government to put more effort effort to improving system In 2021, like I was trying to say before the ministry of justice has Responded to some of these issues and the progress they have made So if you look at the progress they have made they can talk about activities being done But not the impact that has been made. So for instance, we have put in policies Like for instance, the code of conduct agreed You you wanted to actually work around What's it called asset declaration, but we've not seen much progress in that But once you put forth argument that we've done it easy, we need to see what the results are So issues like the former governor about this issue like the former chairman acting chairman, yes We actually want to see what the feedback and what how this affects on national engagement or daily activities So for me, this opportunity is an opportunity in Nigerian government to strengthen systems Across the md is across governance in general to see that we are functional and independent institutions Who can deliver the mandates of your service? All right Thank you so much early friday country director Accountability lab. Sorry about the initial Network challenges, but we look forward to having you again on the program and please keep up the good work Thank you very much and have a good one Thank you. All right, and that's The size of that discussion quite interesting mercy The fact that nigeria is doing better and he is giving Some kudos to the country on some of the initiatives input in place But of course, um, we're still scoring 24 out of 100. I think that is an f in the examination, right? Yes, it is. All right. It's not even closer on e All right, then well, that's the size of it We take a break when we really return would be looking at you know the issue of a suicide The rates at which people are taking their lives What exactly could be responsible and how can we help to control all of that? Is it even possible? Stay with us