 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Daniel gone who's a professor at the University of South Carlos in Brazil Daniel welcome to the show Thanks for having me Bart. It's great to be in your show It's my pleasure. I I want to say upfront that you were recommended by Matt Brennan Who's a great friend of the podcast and has done some really cool episodes himself? and You were a contributor to the Cambridge companion to the drum kit, which Matt also, you know Which Matt put together and I've Mandy Smith who was on the podcast recently had a great chapter in it But so Matt got us in contact because today we're gonna be talking about the history of the drum kit in Brazil And also just about Brazilian drumming and the influences and how it kind of worked in America and and just everything about Brazilian drumming so Yeah, I'm like I said, I'm really really happy to have you here This is a bit out of my comfort zone because I'm kind of it's kind of a foreign topic to me but I think you're the man for the episode so What just start with how you would pretend like you're teaching a class to a bunch of people like myself Maybe who don't know anything really about it beyond seeing videos of some amazing drummers Go ahead and tell us all about it well Before anything else, thanks for having me, you know, sure For a long time part. We had this label of Latin music, you know, and we would get drum charts or drum Transcriptions even they would say Latin and then you look at that and say oh, you know, I have to play a samba and Maybe it could be, you know a bayon what a Maracatu or or African music or something from Argentina or Colombia so very frequently they would use their very large umbrella of Latin For many different types of music, you know, so it's it's great that I have the chance here and in the book, you know to Show some of our drum heroes because of course Each country has its history. It's tradition. It's drum heroes. No special qualities So the idea behind this chapter for the Cambridge companion to the drum cake book was first, you know Show some of our history and then discuss what makes our drumming special, you know, yeah, what's the Brazilian feel? Yeah, absolutely. And I just want to throw in that like so in my Posting videos on social media, which is what I do for the drum history social media stuff I Every time I post a Brazilian drummer and it gets a ton of views and the Brazilian You know fans of the podcast or on social media who like the videos are so passionate and so it's it's a next level Beyond going oh, I like that drummer. I like Neil Pert Thanks for posting this video whatever like it like a you know, Canadian or American guy It is like a an unbelievable level of passion that I've found that Brazilian drummers have for their Legends and I always get met if anyone passes away. I get a message saying today. We lost this Brazilian great Can you please share a video of it? And if I'm like, yeah, absolutely. So the the drummers and the people in Brazil I I have noticed are Incredibly passionate about their heroes That's true. That's true however, you know, I'm really I'm a little concerned about the future because if you go here You know in my city and ask like ten teenagers About Brazilian music. I would say that at least nine, you know, they have no idea what happened in previous decades Yeah, maybe one or two would say okay, Antonio Carlos Jobin Girl from Ipanema, you know, they would have like some superficial knowledge Yeah, but you know, so that's why I think it's so important to discuss our history Right, so in that chapter, I think that's a good starting point I think is we have an overview there I mean, of course history can get very complex But I had things just for the sake of making things easy to understand. I had like three Groups, you know, I first generation with the pioneers then a second generation with drummers From Bolsanova and Samba Jazz like in the 50s and then a third group that I call modern Players, you know, of course if we go deeper we can get you know, maybe a third generation in the 70s another generation in the 80s So it's just a general overview to make things easy to understand. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's great I mean, I'd say let's jump in and and as we go I'd love to hear about Because this chapter title being the the the drum kit in Brazil is like to me It's like you think of the drum kit you think of bass drum snare two toms and a floor tom Which isn't usually the case when you go around the world of having that kind of like I don't know that traditional like let's say the jazz drum set that evolved into the rock drum set Which there are a lot of drummers who use that but I feel like in Brazilian, you know music it evolved a lot more and there's a lot of You know Accessories on the kit and stuff, but yeah, so take it back as far as you can and kind of tell us about the the beginnings of The drum kit or whatever in Brazil. Well, we're thinking about the drum kit, you know with the drum paddle with that So the drum kit arrived in Brazil around 1920 Probably a few years before that. We will never know for sure of course Yeah, but what what we do know is that during the 1920s? There were jazz bands in Brazil, you know jazz bands being any band with a drum kit would be called a jazz band And then these bands would play of course jazz, you know, American music, which was big here at the time But also Brazilian music, you know, Mashiishi Samba Tango from Argentina and You know, we have also to remember that Samba was being developed at the time, you know, we had Modinha we had long do and Mashiishi Three different rhythms that came together to form Samba and that was at that time You know, we have a landmark in 1917 that's when we had the first recorded Samba Pelo telefone by Donga composition by Donga and that was a big hit in the carnival of 1917 So drummers at the time they were learning about this new instrument, you know The drum kit and and American music. How do I play this? And also they were thinking about how to adapt Our rhythms to the drum kit. So the first thing was actually to use Sounds concepts ideas from the hand percussion instruments that we have here in Brazil Applied to the drum kit I mean not not only the patterns, but also the sounds, you know, they would go for the sounds. So for instance When we think about Luciano Pejoni, which is like the first drum hero then we can we can discuss here Luciano Pejoni used to play the snare drum with the snares off And he would play with the stick in his right hand and his left hand would Muffle the sound, you know, he was going for the sound of the hippie Mickey, which is a hand percussion Instrument that we have in Brazil. So he would go like And he would muffle the sound with the left so That would not be possible to achieve with two drumsticks Was going always for the sound interesting and that's just how you how it evolves That's taking what you see, but you got to do what you got to do to make it work with your style And I just think that's so cool to think about these These drummers in Brazil in the 1920s Just taking this I mean, I think jazz a lot of people say is the greatest American export Even though it has origins that go back further and all that stuff But it's so neat to think about that and even I like to you know, I imagine they would You think of jazzers in the 20s wearing, you know suits and things like that and the style Was that a being applied? Do you think they had the aesthetic that they were like? I even think everything would be Taken from this early jazzer style and just look cool in Brazil. Does that make sense? Like well at that time You know everything American was was valued and the same thing happened again In in the 50s, you're gonna talk about this in a minute sure, but more than than the style You know, they're they're just trying to understand the music. I think yeah, you know, so we had all of these drummers in the book I mentioned like Valfrido Silva Joaquinia Plinyo Araújo Faísca Suci, I mean there are many names and then of course it's a shame. We don't have you know We might have a photograph, but we don't have Videos or good recordings of them and that's why you know our first Big drum hero is Luciano Perroni He was the guy You know, he was called the father of Brazilian drumming Although he was not the first one. He was the father of Brazilian drumming and Luciano Perroni was so important that he was compared to Jean-Crupa in jazz. Oh, wow like Jean-Crupa had sing sing sing in the 30s in 1931 Luciano Perroni recorded the first drum solo in a song, you know, faça da and It wasn't like an extended drum solo was like a short break But for the first time, you know, people would say The other instruments might stop and the drummer will have something to say, you know, that was very meaningful for the time Yeah, I mean you take it for granted what we have now of like, you know, just drummers doing whatever they want but And I feel like it's when I think of Brazil It's a very like like we've you were saying it's very rhythmic culture It makes sense that drums would be in the forefront there But it's kind of neat to hear that that was the first example of it Like it wasn't before, you know with with the more modern quote-unquote recording techniques You know, I always wonder how that would have would have happened. I wonder if he spoke up and said I'm gonna take Give me four measures to do a little drum fill or if it just kind of fell into place, you know, who knows Yeah, true. But the thing is, you know drummers at the time remember there were no drum teachers Right and and so there were I think ours Trying to find their ways, you know, so just imagine what? Luciano Perroni, I mean he was You know, he was born Let me think 19 1908 And and when he started his career, he was playing No sound effects in movie theaters for silent movies Actually, we don't we do know that his first job was playing for the Charlie Chaplin movie the kid, you know So a long time ago and and then you know after that was playing in radio then Something I I show in the book is that he had a partnership with With had a mess in Natalie, which was a very important piano player composer and arranger at the time in the 30s and In 1936 they started working at the radio Haja national the national radio in Rio de Janeiro and So then at the time, you know, they had only the drum kit to play All those rhythms so they had to find a way to get all the percussion parts Just with the drum kit So had a mess in Italy was very helpful With Luciano Perroni to think about that and the other way around too, you know People say that Luciano Perroni was fundamental in helping had a mess in Italy to develop his arranging style just like He he was the one who suggested that had a mess should use in percussion figures for the horn arrangements So, you know, he was very important all around and we were just a very relevant figure for our Drumming. Yeah, it sounds like it and could you maybe describe a little bit about like, you know The brands or things like that of like what a drum set would be You know would consist of in Brazil in the 30s the 20s where these I'm assuming I mean it would be Like here in America, you would have your Ludwigs and your slinger lens and things like that But that obviously was, you know, and even in when when I talk to people in Europe It's like it's not as easy. You don't go to a music store and pick up a Ludwig kit It's an import. It doesn't really work like that What type of brands and drum sets and symbols were people typically using back then that you that you're aware of You know, that's something that I'm really not Aware of I mean brands and things like that. Okay, but what we do know is that Actually, Luciano Perroni talks about this this our first drum hero He he mentions that when he started playing at Hajin Asuna now They, you know, they still had just a snare drum on on a chair and Bass drum in a floor tom. I mean, he would play symbols, but not that much I mean, that's something that came later I mean, they would use singles for some accents, but there was no thing such a thing like I'm gonna ride You know keeping time on a simple. Yeah, that that came later, you know, at that time And I'm gonna discuss Samba here mostly Okay, of course, you know, we have other Brazilian rhythms But I think Samba is the most representative one and that's the one I use in the book So at that time they were playing That first generation of drummers. They were playing the Samba Batucada So meaning that they were just emulating the hand percussion instruments So like they would play quarter notes with the bass drum Mm-hmm and play first they would play everything in the snare Then a later development was that they would cross over the left hand on top of the right hand and play the floor tom So that the right hand would be playing on the snare all those syncopated rhythms And the left hand would be on the floor tom playing the surda part. So like beat one would be Muffel B2 would be an open assing like Yeah, you know, so Complex stuff, but they were very, you know developing everything, you know on the go Yeah, I mean there is something that it's just Mind-boggling to me a lot about Brazilian rhythms and things and I think a lot of people like American drummers where you're just not Brought up with it. You're not born with it where I mean it is so complex and it is so hard to just comprehend but It seems like that is just a Part of your culture you you if you grow up listening to it It has to just be more natural to you. I mean because for me, I mean, I'm you know, 31 It I guess you could spend a lot of time to practice and learn it But if you raised with it, I guess it makes a lot more sense than just you know trying to listen to it Kind of as a newcomer to the music and just go I can't this is really hard to follow Yeah, you know and a big part of my research in recent years has me to understand What is the Brazilian feel, you know and why You know, it's not that only Brazilians can play Brazilian music I mean I can name, you know some great Americans like if you listen to Mark Walker or Ricky Sebastian I mean, there are so many American drummers which are great Brazilian feel But then it's very often that you see you know drummers trying to play and they just it's it's not there You know, so I've been trying to understand What is the Brazilian feel and and it's hard to explain it. It's I'm not saying that I can explain it But at least, you know, I've been trying I've been thinking about yeah Do you think that so where I mean and I'm so don't want to like generalize which I'm glad you just said that where There's a lot of great American drummers who can play that style But do you think that so I think of growing up as an American you you kind of like you learn jazz You learn rock and roll you learn that kind of I don't know more a lot of times I would say compared to the Brazilian that the the Latin rhythms, which again, I don't want to generalize anything But you know what I mean where For Brazilian drummers is it Sometimes they're not their first instinct isn't to play a basic Torn down to for boom Boop beat with a song where for him, you know an American the America side of thing You kind of think that Sometimes you play a very basic rhythm and it fits perfectly with the song Does that make sense that like do you think that's not the instinct for Brazilian drummers to go that basic route? It's to be more embellished. Does that make sense? Well, yeah, I guess but I think things are different now because you know, we have all of this information floating around we have You know, so many Brazilian drummers nowadays They don't learn Brazilian rhythms as the first thing sure, you know good point, but I Think when I think about instinct Okay, so what we think about the Brazilian feel I think we have to consider At least three basic elements and I don't want to get you know, too Yeah, I give you the lesson here, but I think it's it would be interesting to discuss this So we have to consider note placement Technique how you develop your technique and in the cultural environment, you know So note placement and I'm gonna again Think about Samba, you know, and but many of the other Brazilian rhythms are also based in 16th note variations So the same ideas would apply so In Samba, we have 16th notes But the space between them is not even right, we have like irregular spacing between the notes and The best scientific description I've found for this is that like there are rhythm fluctuations in a flexible net, you know, so you have some fixed points Giving you a pose like a structure, but you have the you have the flexibility of the net And and that's why, you know, it's so hard to grasp those rhythms because every measure is a little different from the measure before what you just played and You know, and that's why it's so hard to put that into music and notation So you have, you know books and in books is very common to say, oh, this is Samba And you have that pattern for the feet, you know, the ostinato So, you know sequence of dotted eighth notes of 16th note with the bass drum high high hat on the upbeats Mm-hmm, and then for the hands you play an accent the first in on the fourth of all the 16th notes But if you play that as written, you know, if you program that in a computer That's not Samba, you know, so you have a lot you have a lot of misinformation like I'm gonna play a Samba for you now Okay, you're playing in a pattern. That's just a pattern, but it's not really Samba I mean the Samba comes from the field from that irregular spacing. So it's just like jazz, you know We have the microtiming Thing going on but in jazz you're thinking in triplets and in Samba you're thinking in 16th notes But you have like It's almost like you have a triplet inside the 16th note, so yeah, you know, but anyway, you have to consider note placement That's number one. Number two would be technique like how How do you learn to play the instrument like Bart if I ask you in your experience, you know Drummer learning to play the drum kit like to develop hand technique What do how do they do it? What what do they practice? I Mean I would say you start I would say go through a basic book of like Syncopation or something but honestly I would say from having a young son who's trying to pick up the drumsticks You just start playing you have to get comfortable playing with the sticks. I mean, I hope That's sort of the right answer Yeah, I mean actually the answer I was looking for is like you show no, these are the sticks You know, this is how you hold the sticks. Let's play a single stroke roll. Exactly. Yes. Yeah, let's play a single stroke roll I mean from from that moment on you're thinking rudiments Sure, right. It's like you show when you show The single stroke roll you say, you know, I have to place each stroke evenly and You know, keep your dynamics Equal the perfect balance between your hands like same movements You know stick height same height everything should you strive in for? You know evenness symmetry Almost like mathematical perfection, you know, exactly. Yeah, you're trying to be perfect And then of course after you get your technique you can play around with that You can you know play with string and do different things, but you're actually teaching your brain in your hands To be perfect, you know to you know divide everything in two or three equal parts. Yeah, and Of course in Brazil, you know, we learn rudiments and we practice them but when we learn Brazilian rhythms Traditionally, we're not looking at music notation, you know, we're always trying to copy An older more experienced player, you know, we we're trying to emulate those sounds and then You know funny things happen Yeah, for instance when you think about Some snare drum variations for samba schools, there's a great book It's not here, but I have a great book for my friends Bajo Fernando Bajo and Diego Zungados called samba na bateria. They have all these Samba school variations for the snare drum. It's very common that we're gonna play Every accent or almost all accents with your strong hand with your dominant hand So let's say I'm I'm right-handed. I'm gonna play everything with my right hand and the left hand will be there just for some rhythmic support Okay, and actually there's an explanation for this You know in the early days During the carnival parade Police would be around, you know looking for people playing percussion instruments Because that was not something, you know people with good reputation would do so The bad boys So so the way They would hold the drum would be like this. They would hold hold the drum With the left arm like against the chest. Yeah, and they would play with The right hand with the stick And there's just a short stick, you know, you can look on youtube There's a ton of videos and picture that so there's a very short stick here You can't like really play accents with that. I mean just have some rhythm support, you know Wow so The explanation is that they would use The snare drum actually to hide their faces from the police, you know, they're playing so wow That's what that came from That's so cool. So, I mean we have another example with the alfaya if you think about the alfaya, it's A drum You know large drum very common in maracatu groups So if you look at pictures people playing that or you know, if you see the videos Everything is played with the strong hand The other hand has a grip, you know, it's something like Like this. Sure. You cannot really play Access with that. Yeah. So you know, I've seen Classically trained percussionists like very Gray musicians trying to copy young kids in maracatu groups and they could could not do it I mean, I wrote about that in books like they could not do it because as I said in a book like they Their rudimental dna was too strong, you know, they know too much. They they they're too set in their ways I guess their technique. It's just too perfect. Yeah, right. So it's very hard. I guess to get out of that and play Wrong, you know to play with this. So when you just copy you go for the sound you're not thinking about things You go for the sound so number one uh Note placement number two technique number three The cultural environment, you know, as you said growing up in brazil And i'm sure things are different now because you know, the internet People spend their whole day on nut flakes or whatever. Yeah, but uh, you know, when I was growing up you're immersed in the music Most of the time Like during carnival, it was just impossible to escape, you know, there was samba everywhere. You would You know, you turn on the tv samba on every channel then you go to a supermarket Samba you go to you know a restaurant then even if you if you hate it like You you say i'm gonna hide in a cave for a month You know, most likely someone we're gonna show up with a pandeiros and here's some samba for you In your cave. Yeah, it's just not possible. It's you know, impossible to escape. So You all the time you're watching people how people walk how people talk, you know, speak portuguese portuguese has a certain rhythm How people you know, you understand about the religion uh, you and Very importantly you uh, watch people dancing Because the regular the regular spacing between The notes it's filled with body motion And here's the thing when we watch someone, you know in a samba school parade Uh going down the avenue and playing You see that Whatever he's doing when he's not playing is as important as you know The patterns because that's actually part of the pattern So, you know, so if you consider all these things and i'm not saying that this is Easy to explain, you know, so sure I do discuss some of this in the Cambridge companion to the drum kit book But I felt that this was so, uh, you know complicated that I actually wrote another article another piece of work, uh which was published in the Most recent issue of the journal of popular music education And and the most recent issue was uh dedicated only to drum kit studies So I think it's a very cool magazine to to have a look at Definitely, I mean, it's it's what you're saying though is is as part three the cultural environment where you're trying to Which you're doing a great job doing it, but you're trying to teach something or write something that When in in actuality you you grow up in it. You can't escape it. It's in your blood It's hard to explain in words to someone who's literally who's never been to the country and who doesn't understand it But I think you're doing a great job But I think at at the the core of it you kind of it's just it's a part of you. I mean it's Yeah, but yeah, you know, I have to say like I think we get that information Yeah, but I think We have not been doing a good job of keeping our history You know, like if you think about jazz You know, we have all these universities you have uh You know, a lot of people would know that in the 30s you had the big bands And you know the names And then okay in the 40s we had the bebop And I know some of the names. So you have that structure You know people who like jazz will enjoy jazz wouldn't know You know their favorite musician where they came from like oh fusion it you know in the 70s We have this group and that yeah, but in brazil Just like even though I got that information I I had records at home Like just now, you know, when I had my academic research going on Then I went back to look You know Who were these drum heroes because I I had heard of them But we we don't really have material, you know, just now in recent years. We see here at the university You know a lot of research. So this is good news I mean, but this has been happening for the past maybe 10 years You know 15 years So we have publications. So you have material you can find good material about that But you know, that's recent Yeah, and then you have to have the desire for the next generation To not be as interested in doing Stuff on their computer and playing the drums a little bit You need to really be into it on every level to go deep and learn your background But uh, I think you what what we're doing right now is a cool way to get It's approachable and it's it's interesting and it's it's fun And it might wet people's appetite for wanting to learn more Which I think is great and especially because you think back to and and I mean on on that note So getting back kind of on the timeline I think it's really cool where you left off with and I'm not going to butcher any names But you left off with the drummer where the first drum solo I think is where we left off on the timeline I love to carry on sure Luciano Perroni, right? Okay. He was the guy uh So Luciano Perroni was Like the first big name the father of brazilian drumming He played in a ton of great recordings like in 1939 He played in the first recording of aquarela do brazil You know, if you think brazil, I mean that aquarela do brazil that's so Huge, you know so important And and at this point before I move on I really should pay tribute to oscar bolão No great wonderful drummer who just passed away. Yes rest in peace. Yeah a few days ago and oscar bolão He was a student of Luciano Perroni. He took lessons with him and he was carrying the tradition of the samba batucado You know and and we're gonna see that we had A certain tension between samba batucada and the styles that came later on and oscar bolão He was a great drummer and and and he wrote a book Called batuque é um privilégio batuque is a privilege and this book is portuguese english So anyone listening here, you know my enjoyed that book I highly recommend it go check it out if you want to learn about brazilian music. It's great material. Cool. Yeah, so We're we stopped with samba batucada, right and that's the way Most drummers were playing throughout The 30s and the 40s and things changed With what i'm calling here the second generation You know, this is my thing. It's not. Oh, you know that drummer is from of course second But just so that we have it helps to categorize it. Yeah, we have the timeline first generation the pioneers the second generation came in the 50s So in the 1950s we had a president in brazil called Juscelino Kubishek And and that president, you know, his slogan his his thing was We're gonna have 50 years in five He really wanted, you know To take our economic development To a step further to, you know, improve our infrastructure So anything that was new technology modern Things coming from the u.s. And all of that was highly valued so In music we had like a dilemma We had people saying We should preserve our traditions and we should keep our music, you know the way it is And some other people thought, you know, we should be listening to everything happening around the planet and we should use That influence, you know to our benefit so uh A new style of playing samba Evolved and that was the samba no prato or samba that you ride, you know on the ride symbol sure and uh The drummer that became known as the creator of that was edson machado He's our second drum hero edson machado You know, we have this eternal Discussion if edson was really the first one to play that way because some people say it was Ildo Fredo Correia another Great drummer at the time, you know, and and so it's Oscar Boulin used to have all of these Facebook posts, you know, oh, you know, I found this recording. So this guy played, you know A few months before. Oh, no, I found the new recording So that's universal that's everyone has every Society has that like who did it first who did in it's part of the it's part of the fun We never know, you know, no, but what we do know is that edson machado got the most of the credit for that, you know, so uh So history goes that he was playing his Samba cruzado his crossed samba, you know the one that I described And that and then he broke his snare drum head So, you know, he had to keep playing so that He had to ride on a cymbal and up to that point luciano pehoni You know, of course he had cymbals, but he would play an accent here or there. He would never really ride on a cymbal and and Edson machado, he was listening uh To the jazz guys, you know to max roach To, you know, kenny clark to what these guys had been doing in the previous years. So actually Riding on the cymbal wasn't so strange for him and At that point, you know drummers were playing what became known as boom boo a dois like with that pattern for the feet To do to do to do and Edson machado would play that But he would also, you know playing with a soloist. He would establish a dialogue He wouldn't, you know Make comments with his bass drum So in a way He was doing just like, you know, bebop drummers were dropping bombs He would stop. He would stop That pattern and and You know, make his comment so, uh It's great to realize that at that point in the fifties Of course, we had bossa nova Right and that was part of that whole interest about, you know, new things modern things So in 1958 We had, uh João Gilberto recording chega de saudade. That's like the first bossa nova song So in 58 he recorded the song Chega de saudade in 1959 He recorded a full record Called also named chega de saudade And he was playing, you know, his guitar in such a way that drums had to do something different, you know Uh drums had to be subtle and soft and and so We can imagine, you know, all these going on and and drummers had to be versatile because if you listen to, uh Like edson machado In the first Antonio Carlos Jobin record for instance Uh the composer of zafinado plays That's the first Antonio Carlos Jobin record Uh edson machado played something like You know self-contained subtle delicate, you know everything that bossa nova was Was asking for Yeah supporting the music and He was playing for the music But then in that same year 1963 If you listen to his only recording as a leader It's called edson machado es samba novo You know, he goes nuts, you know, it's playing all over the place very modern Very very jazzy. Yeah, you know, and and all of this. I mean you can go and look And on the streaming services. It's very easy to find, you know, most of these recordings. So Uh, it's funny that drummers had to adapt, you know to different situations and at that time Uh Edson machado and and all the other guys they would go to a place in Rio called the alley of the bottles There's a place with a lot of night clubs and And it got that name because you know musicians and guests would leave late at night Making noise and disturbing people living nearby. So people from the buildings would throw bottles at them, you know So, wow, that's the alley of the bottles. That's funny. So there they would play, you know Just free crazy ideas And incorporate the jazz thing. So it is interesting to see that drummers here were listening to The jazz influence Yeah, but then at that very moment brazilian music was heavily influencing Jazz music in the u.s. Absolutely. Yeah, right in 1962. We had that very famous memorable concert at Carnegie hall in new york and that's when You know, a lot of the drummers a lot of musicians ron joberto and tony carlo jobein And all of these guys went to new york and then some of them just stayed and started You know doing their things there Yeah, I mean that is the essence Of jazz is to uh, and I am no expert on jazz but is to Take in all these different influences. I mean that is what jazz is is the mixture of all these different cultures Um So I think it makes absolute sense And I love that it went back the other way and it's just this mutually kind of It just makes everything better But you kind of have to know too it sounds like when when when he was performing that you could be very Subtle you could be subdued and play for the music But then you also need to know when to go Go nuts and and have that opportunity late night in the the alleys where you're getting thrown bottles thrown at you and stuff You have to know when to do what uh And it's yeah, that's all very interesting. That's that was the case with you know, many of the drummers of the time. So You know, we should mention Mewton banana as well Mewton banana he played He played in that first drum jubber to record in 1959 He also played for the get jubber to record which was a huge success in d us in 1963 so You know in those recordings He also was like playing for the music if you listen to his uh, Mewton banana trio This is going nuts, you know, so crazy and same thing with like don one romon don one romon and uh edson machado Were like the two guys were really into jazz so he played uh, don romon for that record that antonio carlos are being Made with uh, frank sinatra in 1967 You know, so they say he was playing very soft And and he had pillows inside his bass drum, you know, but then if you go to his first solo recording 1964 You know, it's it's samba. It's brazilian, but you have all these Different things, you know, you could see that he had stylistic references from different places like he's playing a lot of the Uh, haspa data, you know this technique where you play Uh, the rim of of of the tom and the rim of the snare and get a flam out of that And people say that he got that from art blakie You know art blakie was was doing that in jazz and he would apply the same idea but In his version, you know, he's using the cross stick To emulate the sound of the tambourine, you know So he was going somewhere else, you know, so he was Just like luciano perroni used to do he would play the snare drum trying to emulate the sound of the hippie niki, you know, so Just just very interesting to see how They were reacting to different things And then of course don homon In 1965 went to the us right, so he Went on to play with the weather report tony bennett Blood sweat and tears, you know So don homon And and aiuto morera aiuto is the other guy that we should discuss next They both became like ambassadors for brazilian Drumming in the u.s. You know, there were first and foremost there were Drum kit players, but they realized that in the u.s. They could get jobs playing Uh, you know playing percussion And they were playing hand percussion instruments that were common in brazil, but I believe they were not so known In the u.s. Like, uh, like the beating bow, you know, they were like the ambassadors for the beating bow Don romano aiuto and then nanavas con celos Which that's the great way to get I mean, they obviously got the gig because of their talent but To have this sort of sound That you don't hear anywhere else and that's being basically imported in and it's it's new and fresh I mean, as you said to be ambassadors, those are great ambassadors and they're I mean the footwork that can happen with a lot of these guys is also just as impressive Is the is the hand work? I mean, it's it's it's almost like a It's it's it's like you said where I love the how you describe the net with the timing where you kind of go in and out um It's like you're not constricted by By traditional timing and I think that applies just as much to your feet And uh, it's just awesome to it's impressive to watch really Yeah, it's just like I just thought about you know, bill bruford's book in his autobiography. He he says You know in the 70s when he started playing with the clique like the metronome Uh, you know now you have what I call the culture of consistency You know, so when you start playing like oh, you have to follow the metronome and you know In 1960 that wasn't really important. I mean it was just play play for the music if you have to speed up Just do it. So Exactly. It's not that, you know, we had time in variations With that basic structure, you know, actually in carnival if somebody school Can keep the same time the same bpm That's a good thing. You know, you you get points for that Yeah, but also, I mean you cannot be Stiff, you know, of course you you need that flexibility of the net, you know to get the right feel Yeah, I mean and it raises the question too. I'm sure just not even really a question but a thought about how the evolution of recording and studios and how that I'm sure follows like you just said where in the in the in the early days you listen to recordings from the 60s and 70s And let's say of bands like the Rolling Stones or something like a kind of a Classic universal band that most people like they are speeding up and slowing down and speeding up and slowing down and It's it's neat to hear you talking about how even in your culture that that really did begin to change where I feel like it's like if you're not using a click You're not doing it right, but that's not the case you you need to be Correct and on but And then even beyond that they chop it to the grid nowadays and make it even more perfect but That's got to be difficult even with modern music to chop up because the the music in brazil is very intricate percussion wise where um I don't know You know what i'm saying where like nowadays in in modern music there will be I mean literally they'll put a chop on the bass drum. They'll cut the snare drum They'll quantize it into a grid your music doesn't quite work I mean i'm sure it does but it's got very intricate a lot of nuance where it maybe it doesn't Slide and and and move to the grid quite as as much which I think is a good thing Yeah, and and it's funny that you mentioned, you know, uh new recording technologies because yeah That's something we can discuss thinking about aiuto as well, you know because In the 60s when aiuto was coming up You know, we can think of the beatles and and george martin brian wilson in the beach boys, you know people were trying to To get more complex, you know to get because you had then The capability of you know moochie track recording of have having you know sound Layers on top of each other you could get more complex but for brazilian the drum kit actually You know at least in samba playing in and a year to talks about that things actually were simplified Because in the beginning, you know, we discussed The pioneers they had to play Just with a drum kit all the percussion parts and now You know, I hear to if you listen to a year to recordings during the 70s He talks about that he says, you know, I would simplify what it was doing the drum kit because I knew that I could over the some percussion You know Layers on top of that same thing if you think about like wilson does navies wilson does navies also another great brazilian master were very interesting career because He played so many different styles. You know, he played when we had the rock fever in brazil He would play rock But he could always sound brazilian, you know, just great and if you listen to You know more recent recordings He made with like chicobo archi, you know Good recordings good sound quality. You can really understand everything that's going on Uh wilson does navies would be playing, you know, maybe some hi-hat And the bass drum on b2 Good Throughout the song You know and the other percussion instruments would you know go on top of that So so actually it's interesting to see how technology, you know, uh, yeah Actually affected the way drummers were recording here to yeah, but you still want to be able to have that ability to play live Because in lot live is not studio. So you need to be able to still do the Do everything and create the sounds with your fingers on the drum and all this stuff But but then switch your brain into the studio and and multi-track it but not lose intensity Not lose, uh the feel But that's just universal drum Uh stuff where in the studio everything's fun and everything's great, but really you you still need to keep your Your live, uh, you know feel but very cool So I keep just getting off the timeline here. So carry on where we wherever we left off Well, we stopped with with ayuto right ayuto. Yes, so um I said that Don homon went to the states Yep, he moved he was there at the concert in 1962 Milton banana played at that concert Don homon played at that concert too And then after that he got you know an invitation to Play in the u.s. And so he moved in 1965 I believe I'm not a hundred percent sure about the dates, but He moved in 65 in maybe three or four years after that a year to move to the u.s And then of course, I used to play you know with miles Played with weather report with chicory and and return to forever Yeah, but ayuto was fundamental even before he moved to the states, you know Because he was part of this samba jazz thing here He had with three uh with two very cool trios first Uh, uh trio called samba lancio trio with cesar camargo mariano And then samba rasa trio with ermeto pasqual on piano and flute And then after that um He recorded with uh quarteto novo in 1967 and that recording was you know any person Trying to understand brazilian instrumental music Should listen to that it's like a major reference And and the thing was you know in the fifties we had a figure in brazil Uh called Luis gonzaga He was the king of bayon, you know like rey do bayon So he came from the northeast And he he was playing all these rhythms, you know bayon shorty Chashado Rhythms from the northeast that he made popular because he was huge on radio at the time you know and the drummers at the time uh Many of the drummers would not touch that like edson machado never played You know the rhythms from the northeast don romain wasn't playing that as as well and You know and and we believe that they were thinking like oh, this is music for the masses you know it's like uh It doesn't have the subtlety and and the special qualities that samba and samba jazz You know have so ayurto Did embrace those rhythms and and especially because ermeto pasquale who was playing with him in some brazil trio He you know ermeto also was very found of of those Rhythms from the northeast so if you listen to that quarteto novel recording You know, it's just wonderful because ayurto is playing all these rhythms from the northeast And and but he plays that in odd times, you know because it's very intricate and And he plays sometimes just the bass drum and the hi-hat and he's playing some hand percussion instrument and then he throws Uh the percussion instrument gets the sticks and keeps playing so it's it's just cool You know just it is cool very modern and if you keep listening to ermeto pasquale It's just you know insane how good the music is And and you get it's it's using all these rhythms and those crazy ideas from the northeast as well Hmm and I think now we're almost you know in the late 60s 70s You're now in the world of this isn't 1917 or 1920 We have video and there are examples that people can see of this stuff Which I think is awesome Which I would love if you have a couple extra minutes before this gets released for you to send me a couple links Sure to to maybe some videos or some examples that I can put in the description because um There are a lot of people in america who are very familiar with this stuff But if there's people like me who are really Learning a lot of this for the first time from someone like you know really an expert like you Send a couple things over i'll put them in the uh, let's say the beginner's guide You know the brazilian Even luciano pehoni are from the first generation. You know he uh He passed away in 2001. I think you know, he had a very long career sure So I mean we don't have a lot of material with him But yeah, I remember you know, there's something from like late 80s maybe 85 or six And it was just a tv show, you know someone uploaded that into YouTube i'm not even sure if it's still there i'll i'll look it up Sure, you realize now how important I see that a lot with these drum videos is you realize how important that one news story from 1986 is That featured a drummer that without that and then someone somehow found it and put it on youtube You realize how important it is After when when you realize oh my gosh, that's the only one we have that's the only you know video we have of this drummer and Um, I I think that's great. So um All right. Well, I think we're we're getting close to time here. What do you want to bring it on home with? I mean you like as you said You said you're worried about the traditions of people not really carrying it on maybe as much as uh, you know and things are changing from being less traditional um You know, which I guess is something to be concerned of everyone feels that way I think sometimes about jazz isn't quite as studied as much in schools as it used to be But in my experience doing this podcast there's tons of people who love um Jazz and I I from from meeting brazilian folks on online. There's a lot of passionate people, but um, hopefully People listening to this will will do more research and listen to what you're saying and and that passion for brazilian traditional Drumming and the drum kit and music will grow yeah, sure and You know, so we discussed the first generation the second generation And we have modern players now, you know, so it's It's I worry about the future But we have to say that we do have you know, wonderful players right now So we're still going solid and strong. It's just that you know, some of our young generations uh You know are not paying attention to what came before but we do have some, you know, like In the book I mentioned uh Hamon Montagner, you know, dear friend of mine uh, edu ribeiro you know People nowadays with awesome technique. I mean, they're take really taking things a step further, you know, and I really have to say You know, I I should mention The drummers who played with ermeto pasquale, you know in the book I mentioned marsha baia zedu ardo nazario And nene, you know, and they they really They could take things a step further, you know, because they had yeah ermeto Was doing all this, you know, crazy musical universe, you know with odd times and and different things going on on the time and these musicians they had Uh, you know, not only the technique, but the open mind To go with ermeto, you know, and in zedu ardo nazario with who was my teacher actually I have I'm proud to say Zedu ardo nazario and nene also performed with a gibber to gismonti So these two names ermeto pasquale and gibber to gismonti are Paramount if you want to, you know, understand what brazilian modern brazilian playing is nowadays And and and as I said, you know, we have these new guys with awesome technique Because when we think about You know samba and fast samba Uh, it's very common that we're gonna You know, instead of playing all the 16th notes, we're gonna just break it up. You know, you're gonna You're gonna let it breathe a little bit But some of these new drummers, you know, no matter how fast the song is they can play Every 16th note, like as I said, like hamon montagner, my dear friend. He has this push and pull technique, you know Endurri beiro, you know Different technique, but also celsior meida kiko freitas, which is like nowadays, I guess maybe the figure who's Really well known around the planet. He's been playing with john bosco for many days. He has a great book out on um Hudson music And and he has what he says is uh Action in reaction A song we have song so like he can throw the stick and get Three strokes and then he pulls and get a fourth stroke. Wow. So he's going for the sound of hepiniki So that same thing that luciano perroni was doing With two hands he can do with one hand playing the right single. And so it's it's crazy and it sounds so good people keep Evolving and it makes me think too that you saying, you know, you're a little worried about the future generation It kind of makes you wonder if the first generation was worried when the second generation was coming up You know what? I mean you you everyone's kind of worried if the next generation is going to be doing it But you know, hopefully it turns out that something really cool comes out of it and and it sounds like these guys are like getting faster and better and stronger and um It's just pretty neat. Um, so Well, I think this has been awesome. I am so far out of my comfort zone in but I think I've I've learned a lot from you I hope I you know, I followed along and if you like I said can share a couple things that I can share on in the description for folks to to um, kind of get a taste of what you know, a little bit more of the the top top classic Examples that people should listen to I'll share that and I think that would be really neat. Um, and then Daniel is kind enough. He said he could hang out for a couple minutes after we finish and we'll record a patreon Bonus episode and Daniel, I think I would like to talk to you about once we wrap up and do the next episode would be What it was like to work with matt and to to consolidate all of your information on the history of the drum kit in brazil and kind of get it You know sort of pared down into a chapter of a book and how you sort of selected what was Fitting and how you made it universal for everyone to kind of understand because it's different when you can Talk and speak it to someone like you're doing now, but um, I'm I'm sure it's really cool And then maybe we can talk about the book a little more in that and uh, folks can can check that out as well Which just to mention again, it's the Cambridge companion to the drum kit. I'll put a link to it in the description Very cool every chapter is something different and that's from matt brennan who kind of again got us connected. So um Yeah, Daniel, is there anything you want to plug at the end here? Maybe tell people some recordings you've been doing or where they can find you or anything like that cool There's a book, uh You know, I my first drum teacher Back in 1984 was jammy pladeval this guy here And and I had the pleasure of you know, first I had A drum set quartet With jammy was a very cool project called casa de marimbondo and we have a record Uh, you know all the streaming services should have it It's a very cool record and then a few years ago We wrote this book together and it's called in the world of drumming a brazilian perspective This this is portuguese, but we have an english version Uh Available on on hudson music's website. So if you want to right if anyone is interested can check it out I'll share that as well, which is awesome. So yeah Um, awesome. Well, daniel, thank you for taking the time to be here today and share all this great information to people I can speak for myself that i've learned a ton And it really puts music and drumming into perspective and it kind of expands my Um, I guess as an american guy you kind of think I think everyone sort of thinks of their own culture Uh for themselves, but i'm i'm really glad to have you on the show and kind of get out of that american and europe Uh european type type episodes, which I do a lot. So i'm honored to have you on here and thank you for your time Cool. Thank you so much one last thing uh You mentioned matt brainan And you know, I really should mention daniel akita and also joe pignato and actually this is the cover of the book, you know, so the book had three editors And actually joe pignato was the one Who invited me, you know, if I would be interested in submitting a chapter So my shout out for them too. Great. Thank you for doing that The guy I was not aware of that so I I appreciate you doing that and uh, yeah And thank you for everyone if you want to hear the bonus episode we're about to record Go to drumhistorypodcast.com click the patreon link and then you'll hear the bonus episode. So daniel, thanks for being here. Thank you