 Okay guys, we're gonna go ahead and get started. We're actually missing one panelist, but Sean hopefully will walk in here soon. Are you coming to repair me? Because you're gonna be here a while if you're trying to repair me. No? Yes. Hey, there we go. You can have your microphone back. Okay, we're gonna go ahead and get rolling here. So we'll take a minute of peace or so forth for you to do an intro of yourself. Sean hopefully will, he's actually at the conference, but he's just not in the room, which tells you we're not that important to him. But hopefully Sean will step in here and give us a little dive of who he is and what he's involved in as well. But we'll go ahead and start with Mark. My name's Mark Velker and I mostly came here to heckle Sean. So I work at Cisco and I'm a technical lead on our OpenSec at Cisco team. I also founded the meetup in Research Triangle Park, North Carolina, which is about 450 some members now. We're in about a little less than two years. And also work on, I'm a core developer on the Public Stack Forge projects. I touch on much other things related to OpenSec at Cisco as well. All right, so I'm Scott Lowe. I work at VMware in the Networked Scooter Business Unit with a focus on OpenStack and other OpenSource projects. I worked closely with Shannon to establish a meetup group in the Denver, Colorado area. And we're at, I don't know, probably 250, 275 members right now, some of their abouts. I'm involved in contributing to OpenStack docs, both through a book sprint that I participated back in the summer and then also contributing to some of the other documentation as well. Cool. My name is Shannon McFarland. I'm a principal engineer at Cisco Systems, focused on OpenStack and along with Scott, we've co-founded a meetup group out of Denver. And so this is a panel session that we've done for several years now, I think. We did one in Hong Kong and I think way back as far as maybe even San Diego. So this is a pretty good opportunity for those of you, especially we find these are actually more popular outside the U.S. Cause U.S. seems to be somewhat almost overblown with meetups in some of the marketplaces. But a lot of people that are in different geographies are looking for a way to either link up with an existing group around OpenStack or start their own user group around OpenStack. And so we tend to kind of, do a few opening questions that we talk about around kind of how we started and what are the tools and tips and tricks that we went through to get a good popular meetup or user group going. And so we'll start with those. We've got microphones in the area. So please step up and interrupt us with questions or we'll end the session with any types of Q and A that you guys have on that, okay? So we'll start off with what are some of the tips in finding OpenStack meetups? I mean, I think that very often a lot of us will live in a geography around the world where we may not know that there's a meetup already going on in there. And so is there a, you know, an easy way? Is there a user group? Is it just, you know, hitting Google? Is it, you know, just going to a meetup group? You know, what are some of the best ways of finding an existing meetup? So the OpenStack Foundation actually has a listing of meetup groups on the website. If you click on community on the first page, then, hey, there he is. Then you'll find your way there pretty quickly. They've actually got an interactive map as well. So you can actually just sort of move that around to where your area is and find one near you. And also have an alphabetical listing as well. One thing I'll say though, is that if there's not an OpenStack meetup group specifically in your area, you may find that there's, say, a cloud computing group that actually talks a lot about OpenStack or a DevOps group or one of the related fields near you. All right, I'll let Sean introduce himself real quick and then we can go from there. Yeah, sorry I got lost. Because everyone's had that experience now. Sean Roberts, VMware. I run the San Francisco Bay Area user group. OpenStack Ambassador. So the question was tools to help people find a meetup. Okay, so the, I didn't hear what you guys said, so I don't want to necessarily repeat what you just said. Sorry, but I guess. Yeah, Mark plugged the community and user groups website as there are other alternative approaches that may, I mean, because there's sometimes people don't register their user groups with OpenStack.org. So is there an easier way to find them? Yeah, so meetup.com has become kind of the de facto standard by implementation, but it's not by all means the only one, but there are plenty of user groups on there that aren't actually registered or documented in the community page like they should be. So if you just go to meetup.com and search on OpenStack, you'll find a whole bunch of new groups. And there is a few countries where meetups not available. So unfortunately, that's, you're gonna have to rely on the more organized version that's on the OpenStack page because meetups not available. Which leads to my very next question, well done, Sean, of if I don't want to use meetup or, you know, if I can't use meetup, you know, because of just site restrictions or whatever, are there other common approaches that typical user groups would use around, you know, is it just Facebook or something else that I can use to kind of help organize? Yeah, so I've seen groups like, I think the Vietnam group has set up this way, Google groups or Facebook or both. So I think personal, you know, whichever your personal preference is. I would prefer if I wasn't gonna use meetup, because meetup isn't my favorite, but it's the best one available. Google groups would be my second option, my second choice. Okay, great. So if I didn't find a meetup and I actually wanted to organize one on my own, what's, you know, one of the common problems that we have even in established areas that aren't maybe in the valley or something like that is, you know, how do I begin finding sponsors that can help? You know, it could be just as much as, you know, a sponsor that comes in and provides food and a speaker or it could be something more logistical around, you know, an actual location to have my meetup. So what have you guys kind of found that works there? Well, I think that, you know, one of the challenges that we still haven't, to my satisfaction, at least adequately addressed in Denver is, and I think this is one that is critical for really building a membership and that is a routine meeting location and a routine meeting time. Like, we're always gonna meet here and we're always gonna meet on the third Wednesday of the month or whatever that is, right? Because that gives people consistency. If they know, hey, it's coming up, you know, I know it's gonna happen on this day. I can put it on my calendar. I know it's gonna be here. I can plan around that. So we've had some challenges within the Denver area of just getting that established as well as we would like. We're getting there. But aside from that, you know, we use meetup.com. Like I said, I'll echo Sean's comments. It's not great, but it will get the job done to kind of broadcast the presence, make contacts within the industry, people that we know at organizations. We tap our own organization to help out when we can. That sort of thing. But aside from that, I'd love to hear what you guys have to say. So we found that once you've had just one or two meetups then you'll actually start getting volunteers contacting you. So I think in the past month we've had three different companies volunteer to send folks out to RTP. So just holding one or two is a decent way to get started before finding sponsors. And that can be fairly simple. You can start, you know, maybe get in your own office to house a few folks. Cause your first meetup is probably not gonna be thousands of people unless you live in a really big place. Or you can go to a restaurant, go to a bar, go to a picnic at the park. Just as long as you are meeting to talk about open stack. And the content can be pretty lightweight too. One of the sort of challenges that we have in RTP is that we have people from all different sides of open stack. So we have people whose day job is open stack development. And we have people who are brand new to cloud computing in general and just want to find out what all the buzz is about. So finding content that addresses all those different audiences is sometimes challenging. So we try to rotate through those topics. And some of the kind of introductory 101 sort of talks are probably gonna be pretty easy for you if you're starting a new meetup group. Cause obviously you probably know a thing or two about open stack at that point. And once you kind of get that ball rolling, that's one good way to help attract sponsors pretty quickly. And I'll also say once you do get the ball rolling, talk to the people that are in your group. Cause a lot of times you can kind of poke them into getting them personally or their employers to send folks out to do sponsorship for you or help you with meeting locations. So we're pretty lucky where I am. And there's sponsor options. In fact, I'm constantly having to tell people no that we don't have a way of receiving their money or whatever they're offering, which is kind of weird problem to have. So in other areas, the people I've talked to and some of them, they've started their own groups and I don't even think they're publishing. They just meet on their own. It's generally around universities. And it seems to be pretty successful. So if you wanted to start a user group, that would be one of the ways to get it going. In my experience, the hardest part, like when I left Yahoo, I lost the space cause they weren't interested in continuing to support the user groups, unfortunately. So I had needed to find a new space. So that was the very, very, very first thing I needed to lock down. So HP was kindly enough and they've offered it. I'm probably gonna start holding my VMware as well, although the location isn't as ideal cause it might as well be 50 miles away during traffic time. So the location being easy but also consistent is really important. And we're lucky enough we're able to stick to the same schedule cause people just show up now. They know when to show up. So the sponsorship of the actual physical location, I think is the most critical. The other things, I mean, people don't absolutely have to be fed. They need lights on, they need Wi-Fi, but that usually comes to the building. You have to negotiate security with the people that you have the building. So if you can lock down the building, then it seems like the other things kind of just happen. So just to piggyback on one point, I think you both said that location consistency was actually important. That may actually, that your mileage may vary a little bit with that depending on where you are. In RTP, we've actually pretty consistently held them at the Cisco office in RTP. And we're actually considering changing that up and moving it around a little bit because RTP happens to be really three cities in the same general area. So we have a very spread out population. So it actually might make sense for us to, we might get a few more folks from the Durham side of town if we actually held something in Durham or downtown in Raleigh or wherever. Yeah, we have taken that approach in Denver. Denver, not quite as spread out as RTP. I used to live there, so I'm familiar with it, but we do even run into people who might live on the north side of the metro area who would prefer to go there and don't want to drive down to the south side or somebody who lives on the south side doesn't want to drive the north side. So we've bounced back and forth and I'm yet to determine whether that consistency, I feel like the consistency of having one location that is reasonably convenient for everybody would actually help, but we have done the back and forth and I'm a little undecided. I don't know, Shannon, if you want to weigh in on that or not. Yeah, I mean, I think the, again, I've talked to several people over the last several, you know, panels that we've done on this topic afterwards and I mean, some of them are in very, very small, you know, townships or city geographies. So its location is just get me a place where I can put someone and what, you know, they found out as they started off at a local coffee shop and then they realized that there is a truckload of people in their community that care or want to care about OpenStack and that very quickly blows out, you know, the location that they have. So I think, you know, in some of the larger geographies where you end up actually having multiple, kind of like we do with Colorado, with Dave Medbury, where we actually have more than one OpenStack meetup going on in the area. So I think a lot of it is based upon geography of, you know, where that problem, you know, is a result. And I think, you know, feeding into the next question is, how do you support remote audiences? And, you know, like Scott and I have had, you know, Denver is a very transient area. So we have a lot of people that live there that don't work there. And so you might have a really large number of RSVPs for a particular topic. And then when it comes time to see them in person, you have a small fraction of that number that actually shows up. So, you know, it's a two-part question for you guys is, one, what is the, you know, the common way that you deal with remote audiences or recording of your sessions? Is it just Google Hangouts or GoToMeeting or WebEx? And the second part of that question is, do you think providing live remote attendance actually negatively impacts your live in-person attendance? Yes. So we've experimented with, I've got some friends in India and Germany and a few other places that are all in crazy time zones compared to where I am. So that's caused, well, let me put it a different way. Any additional thing that you introduce to a meeting, whether it be, you know, for business or for whatever, just makes it more complicated. So you add WebEx or you add Google Hangout or you add microphones or a camera or waiting for a second speaker or a fourth, in my case. It just makes everything more complicated and more likely that something will go wrong and you won't be able to actually get to what you're trying to get to. We started doing training as part of the focus because that was consistently what people were coming up and asking for. So we actually started a project around it and then we started actually, just recently started making, one of the team members started making videos. So we're thinking about as part of the user group, co-op, or not thinking, we're gonna start co-opting our normal user group time on our Thursdays that we always hold it and we're gonna hold successions but we're also gonna record them. So we're gonna, we'll report back to see how successful and what happens but it's basically using the training material that we've built and but it's exactly the same time doing pretty much the same thing people have been asking for because they consistently show up and they're asking questions about how do I learn about usually pretty basic stuff about OpenStack. So by using this, I think hopefully that this will serve the people's needs that are showing up and the videos will be an extra. But they'll be canned, they won't be live, so. Yeah, I mean, I think we've used WebEx to provide that remote component and it's been moderately successful. I mean, there's always the added complexity to Echo Sean's comment of trying to get signed into the WebEx and making sure they can hear you and is the display working correctly? Can you see my slides, et cetera, et cetera. And I do think that there's, especially when you get into the larger geographies where maybe going to the other side of town is a little too complex or a little too much time or too much traffic like in the Bay Area, right? That having that remote option does impact negatively the face-to-face interaction but I'm on the fence as to whether that's necessarily a bad thing. I mean, part of the purpose of a user group is to just connect with other people. That connection doesn't necessarily have to be face-to-face although that's ideal to form relationships but part of it is just to facilitate communication. Yeah, I'll kind of echo that. We've been doing WebEx recordings for all of our stuff as well and we generally get not very many people attending those live and probably even fewer people playing them back later but it's kind of a lifesaver for those people who had that thing come up at the office at the end of the day and couldn't make it over. So we've gotten some positive feedback on that. It is generally less interactive for those folks maybe because of the technology or maybe just because of where they are they don't feel like asking questions a lot so it tends to be kind of one way. So it's been beneficial. I don't know that it's been great. We could probably do without it if it came to that and I probably wouldn't worry a tremendous amount if for some reason I couldn't make it work one night but it's been a plus. I do want to say that we've held what we call beginner sessions for about the last year and Mirantis has been nice enough to lend us their trainers and it's usually one of their newer trainers that's learning which is awesome. We're giving them a service and they're helping us out at the same time and usually we'll have anywhere from 80 to 150 people show up. We've held them once a month. We were holding them every two weeks, that was too much but when we do that and we always run Webex we usually have anywhere from 10 to 20 people join but it's really hard to tell because of the lack of feedback how if they're actually just kind of listening to in the background or they got in and it didn't work for them and they just didn't jump off or as I've gotten a variety of feedback at different times like I can't hear you or I couldn't hear you when I didn't know to use a chat window so it wasn't useful. But I've also gotten feedback as well that it was really helpful, thank you for doing that. So it's one of those things we keep doing I'm just not sure how valuable it is but at various times it has disrupted the entire meeting and we start like 20 minutes late because the person that's showing up is a new trainer and they've never set up Webex before and they're using Opera or some kind of crazy browser and Webex won't start on it and they're sitting there trying to can I just reinstall this? So it is one of those things that if I could avoid it I would but we kind of built it into how we do things so it's necessary evil. One of the things I've tried to do it hasn't been 100% successful I try to get whoever's going to be talking to show up like a half hour early so we can run through the audio visual and all the extra stuff that always kerfuffles everything. Yeah I mean I think it goes back again to the logistics of the location because if you're having into the coffee shop or a bar you've got to bring your own projector they're not providing that or everybody's crowded around holding a beer spilling it on your keyboard while they stare at your keyboard your screen or whatever but then trying to engage into whatever the local Wi-Fi is which is hard enough to do sometimes at an established corporate location where you're using it much less you're doing it at a restaurant or wherever you may be hosting the event so I think that it ends up being a struggle no matter if it's established or not just because of the logistics part of that. I've come to the realization that running these meetings you're acting as a trainer you're giving a service to people that are showing up whether or not you intended it to be that way you're teaching them and maybe you have a variety of speakers but you're facilitating training for them so to do that trainers have a lot of background and preparation they have to do so if you don't do that it's good. It shows yeah absolutely yeah. So a question yeah. Hello there are various user groups now some of them are quite set up and some of them are new coming new coming there well so how does the new coming user groups share their experiences with the set up user groups so that they can evolve and get better and how does the settled up user groups can transfer their knowledge to the new coming user groups. Thanks. It's an entering kind of thing yeah. Yeah so I got the mic so I'll say it again I guess so yeah we've struggled with this there's actually the ambassadors team there's gonna be a talk I should know this off the top may have but there's gonna be an ambassador's talk which is kind of like a different set of the user groups globally. So we've talked about how we need to mentor or how we could mentor other user groups and facilitate the user group experience in the community worldwide. I hadn't thought of a mailing list for user groups but that actually would I think would be the solution and it's pretty easy to set up. We do have an ambassador's mailing list but it's not quite the same thing so yeah I think we should just do that just create an open stack user groups mailing list and advertise it on the user group page and tell everyone else and start doing that. No it doesn't exist but you just gave me the idea to do it so let's do it. I was just gonna say I think the user group mailing list is a great idea so we should you know whoever kind of I guess you could facilitate that as an ambassador but in the short term if you wanted to use okay they're awesome in the short term I would say we could probably use one of the generic open stack mailing lists not the dev but yeah just to try and get that communication out to other people but I think that a dedicated mailing list or even if we wanted to try and set up an IRC channel that might be an option as well. I think we could just use that for IRC we could just well actually there's a community time for it's usually not Stefano Stefano Stefano Stefano get his name right one of these days he runs the community he's in charge he's one of the community managers and he's generally available during the community hours is actually posted as a one of the IRC meets so if you were to show up and say put your hand up and say hey are we gonna still have the meeting he'd be there I'd like us to do it more often so actually that's probably it we probably don't need a new one just use the community mailing list that would be probably the best because that's already very similar so yeah I think we should do that rather than creating a new one. Yeah I'll just say the other piece is look around for user groups that are either near you or look like yours you know maybe a user group that has a high concentration of newer users or one that's in a rural area or an urban area or whatever it is and talk to those organizers the organizers of the meetups are usually pretty approachable people because you know we're all dealing with a couple hundred members so we have to have some people skills I guess but we're generally pretty approachable and if there's anything that we can do to help we're generally pretty willing to do that Does that answer your question? Cool so on to topics I think you know both Mark and Sean have kind of led into this a little bit but you know a lot of the meetups that you attend are you know depending on the geography are very vendor specific just because they happen to be sponsoring or so forth I think Scott and I have a pretty hard and fast rule of just because you're sponsoring doesn't mean you're going to pitch to us right and so that's a very important differentiator but you know outside of that and you know I think people you know generally after a summit are usually or after you know the Keela release for example people you know some the PTL or a core somebody comes in and does kind of an update of what's happening in that release you know what you know from a community perspective can we do is a better job of just promoting general education and it could be you know you know to the point that you've been driving at Sean around leveraging the existing training guides and we have a URL here for the training guides you know is there a way for us to use those training guides in a meetup or user group environment so that we could actually you know maybe every other week or so forth you know present some sort of 101 or a developers guide or something like that so what are your ideas about you know other types of content actually just what part of the reason I was late is because I just came from talking about exactly this so good timing so that excuse me the training guides project is part of the docs program and that was primarily just because it's documentation but it's evolved far beyond that already Stefano and Luis Drakny have spun up an outgrowth of the upstream university that Luis started it's now been kind of co-opted and being called upstream training and it's the second version of it just happened or happened two days before the summit is advertised as part of the foundation materials so it's been very focused on two day training on teaching open stack a little bit from a developer more from a developer perspective and the training guides are more around teaching user groups so we're talking about co-opting both those efforts and actually merging them together where we start producing primarily slide content around being self-taught but also being able to run them specifically other user groups so we're doing the first release of this or the first implementation in San Francisco we talked about maybe doing it in other places as well and I'm happy to actually maybe we should talk right after this and talk about what we talked about so I think with the help we can actually start producing a lot more content and allow the user groups that have specific focus maybe on neutron or maybe on salamander whatever happens maybe they can start producing their own content and feed it back into the system and then other user groups could use it because that's it seems like the interest is there because people are giving talks people are talking specifically about different features and essentially what they're doing with teaching so let's capture that and build upon it with the training guides I think some of the feedback has been the training guides are great for me if I'm consuming it through a browser but if I actually want to reteach that can I consume it through a pdf or a keynote or a powerpoint presentation how do we convert that because that's a lot of work to get that into that particular format so any input that you have on if there's any plans around that stuff for example in your group the morantis folks are actually doing one on one level stuff so that's morantis intellectual property that they're reusing for that but are there any plans to do a presentation version of the training guides or no that's actually exactly what we were just talking about that it's been too focused on docs too little on actually delivering the content so we're we're talking about right now all the data is stored in xml and it's pushed up by patches just like any other open stack project we're talking about actually switching it around and moving it all into a simpler format called rst and which is the format that the upstream training is using and it's primarily meant to be easy to generate slides there's a little bit of code around actually publishing the slides in html they look using landscape which is basically nothing more than an easy way of using converting from rst to html and pdf so we're going to start focusing more on that and gentle and Matt and a few other guys, Andreas that are in the docs team are going to help us start to format just slightly some of the material they have so we can reuse it easier but the primary focus would be to produce slides so they can be used to teach awesome so to follow up on that one and again, mics for those of you that have questions here but a lot of the resources around the meetups have been again it's either vendor specific or people are just using content that's already out there but a lot of the meetups that I've talked to and Scott and I have kicked this around a lot is like trying to move into lab oriented hands on type of stuff so there's a couple of ways that people have been doing this a lot of the larger geographies some vendor has coughed up some public lab space where they can do a trial edition of their online open stack environment where people can go through and create a network and do some stuff and then the other side of that is walking through everybody getting together and having different and some sort of distro that they deploy that they learn from so if you guys kind of found which one of those ways is the most flexible and easy from a lab perspective to get people started on the hands on or they kind of equal either way I think there's pros and cons we've done I think one of each of those Red Hat sponsored some lab time for us over at the Red Hat tower in downtown Raleigh and we also had another demo of people installing stuff on their laptops so there's pros and cons the good thing about going to a lab space is the environments already controlled contain set up and you can kind of hit the ground running and go and you don't have to worry about do you have the right software prerequisites installed and all that kind of thing or can your laptop even get on the wifi the downside is that people can't take it home afterwards they kind of come for their hour or two and do what they can do and then that's it and it's kind of hard for them to take that home and keep messing with it so I would say neither one is ideal and we've done both and that's probably the best approach because I think different audiences are going to get different things out of it yeah this is something we're still wrestling with in Denver obviously as you know Shannon and so thus far we've done some demos hosted stuff use my home lab for some stuff right but I think in the long term we're probably better off to Mark's point of enabling the attendees to continue to do this on their own so I think that us looking at you know perhaps as a broader community effort of publishing vagrant files and the appropriate boxes to actually allow them to set up a small environment that they could run on their laptop without a great deal of effort would probably be the best approach because it does allow them to come to the meetup talk with others ask them questions or I tried this it didn't work what do I do now da da da get some feedback and then they can take it away and say go home work on it come back the next time hey I figured this out this is what I did that kind of thing if you look at the beginning of each of the training guide sections there's a topology of what this looks like these are the IP addresses and you can go through that and so I think that if we you know kind of pre-canned what it would look like to build a topology on your local you know machine and then jump into the training guides directly from there everyone's operating the same way it would be very helpful to your point of if everyone was working from the same training guides using the same tool set when you came in you know encountered a problem when we hit the mailer or something like that everybody knows what type of environment that everyone else is using so I think you know there's a lot of pros to us backing the training guide material and orchestrating the actual tool set that we would do from a hands-on perspective based on that right now there's obviously it's not well not maybe not obvious but by HTTP you can't get access to the scripts but in the github repo for training guides stackfords slash training guides no it's not stackfords it's open stack open stack slash training guides you'll find that there's what we're calling OS bash scripts which are to run virtual box to create a for node install and some of the guys have started using those virtual machines and importing them into a glance with pretty good success so far and also for running the training we're talking about the logistics of having that set up before somebody shows up because otherwise 15 minutes if you're lucky to get that all set up so we're running the training we're talking about using rack space developer VM space so we can set it up the week before and possibly use it as well but for people that want to be self-taught they can build their own environment using the virtual box scripts OS bash set up Awesome question This is a little bit off topic I'm just wondering what you do at Cisco and VMware to internalize internally evangelize and generate some more interest around open stack So I guess there's a couple things one is we at Cisco actually host internal conferences about this kind of stuff so this coming January we're actually hosting sort of a Cisco internal version of the open stack summit just get our own developers excited about it because we have so many different projects that touch open stack that they shape or form now and for the meetup group specifically we try to advertise those word of mouth around campus we kind of have sort of the email list equivalent of an office water cooler so we try to send things around to that and just get people excited about it word of mouth is actually pretty powerful for us as well I think we're about 6,000 employees in the RTP campus and you'd be surprised how fast word of mouth can spread through a group that big So we did a mail or probably nearly 3 years ago now called open stack bash interest and it's not people that maybe even will do open stack as any real part of their job but they're interested in it and so it's crazy how many seed questions of just basic stuff whether it's how do I get hooked up with a meetup or something like that all the way through where can I actually go get formal training and so that's an awesome way to get that established inside the org. Yeah I'll let Sean comment as well since he's actually in Palo Alto at the campus I'm in Denver and the nearest office is up in Broomfield which is too much trouble for me to drive to because I'm lazy but internally VMware uses a product called socialcast which is described as like Facebook for business it's a type thing and we have established a groups in there that people can join the group and then see content and people will post blog posts and meetup announcements and questions and whatever else similar to a mailing list but a little perhaps not depending on your perspective a little more flexible than that and then it's just as they mentioned word of mouth you're mentioning to people that you know within the organization that you are involved in open stack that you are contributing to the project that you are supporting user groups via meetups and other activities that sort of thing Sean do you want to comment at all about being in that area? So I like the idea of having an internal summit I think I'm going to copy that now that EMC and VMware and Pevito are all hand-in-hand marching along or skipping along maybe but just a day-to-day evangelism of open stack I just recently came over from Yahoo so it's a little different but the way I did it in Yahoo was there is a I basically just started basically a equivalent of a Yahoo user group and people I knew at different departments had interests that I met through summits outside of the company I got them together and we started meeting and working on it and that's actually kind of how open stack started at Yahoo to be perfectly honest it was more of a open stack from the bottom up rather than the top down or not that's exactly how it started so you could do more top down I think it's a lot more effective to do bottom up and to be perfectly honest the way I started at Yahoo finding people is I started searching through the opensack-dev mailer and when I saw people that had yahoo-inc email addresses I'm like aha so in VMware it's actually right now not much different we're distributed amongst a lot of different departments but we all work together we don't report up through one specific person and it seems to work pretty well we are starting in the foundation part of my head we're starting a product management group which is trying to organize the different efforts of different companies around getting the developers more coordinated through the product management and I think that might be also another backwards not expected but a way of getting those people organized within their own companies forcing them to start working together more and collaborating more because these things happen but kind of due to the nature of open stack they are typically from the bottom up so it's not organized by any one person or one group so it doesn't have to be specifically from the top down but getting the product management involved seems to be the common thread so that could be another way awesome well we are yahoo good and you can catch us outside we're at the end of time so not the actual end of time but the end of time in this session not to cast doom on this place but so we'll be here through the week and contact information up there and appreciate your time and come into the session have a good day thank you