 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my one and only singular co-host Tom. What's up, buddy? How you doing? Friends, how are you? Good to see you again Tom So I feel like it's been forever since we've hung out. We should do it more. It's been a whole three days since I've seen you And We were together the weekend before that too. I've seen you too much if I'm if we're honest with ourselves also joining us To men who we also hung out with this last weekend because they were at the same tournament We were and it was a great time Paul from Radio Free Hammerhall Paul Conti. What's up, buddy? How you doing? What's up nerds? I'm doing quite well Paul you're getting half credit for this appearance since hooves is here as well Also joining us Matt hooves of doom. What's up, buddy? How you doing? Doing pretty good. Yeah Good to have you good to have you both The two of you joined us this last weekend and many other folks At Steve Herner's wonderful. Holy Wars tournament in Naperville, Illinois. We're gonna talk a little about that We're gonna talk a little bit about turnings in general tournaments with soul. What does that mean for a tournament to have a I Don't know like a theme a purpose a meaning something like that. What's what's what's what makes a tournament good an identity? That thank you Tom. That's perfect an identity I'm gonna talk about tournament identities and how much it can vary and why that's a good thing. All right But of course first the news So what do we got? So how about that rumor engine? It is a chaos night Or chaos or similar thing Hornblower because it's almost identical to the cast night hornblower Does that mean that we have multi-part nights coming one would finally hope we actually get that released You mean with like a musician and standard bearer in the kit because that's what they don't have now Yeah, yes I assume yes, I mean, I don't know other way to read that rumor engine That multi-part kid has been missing in action since 2019 It's just there in the getting started still which is fine. By the way, they're beautiful beautiful beautiful models like I have two Lots of them painted up. I got two of those start collectings. It was a great investment Paint it all of it up couldn't be happier with it It's not that hard to convert a standard by the way like they come with spears You just take a little flag and you glue it to the end of one of their spears Done see how easy that was not it's not the most complicated conversion you'll ever do in your life so Just saying Yeah Yeah, I mean this one's there's not much discussion for this one Sorry, I don't know. I think that's way too complicated for me, but sure Sure Turn us but that's what it is go ahead somebody asked why is like what part of the gas night is this if you look at the old Musicians horn. Yeah, it's almost identical to this only it's like a less detailed worse version of it, right It's almost Exactly this this is just a like a higher res newer sculpt of the old chaos night hornblower. That's it. That's exactly right Yeah, yeah This is definitely chaos. It's yeah. Yeah So what's the what's the rough idea when this type of stuff might be coming out though? This is on the horizon at all It'll probably just release at some point, you know, like who knows that the multi-part kit wouldn't need to be something special along with the Along with a book right they could just Put out that hey finally the multi-part kits like that stuff happens sometimes So sure, you know because it wouldn't tell me a new We haven't had any tome celestials that way for slaves to darkness I thought they did have their tome celestial. Yeah, they did Did they for third edition? Yes. Yes What they get? Nothing good nothing of relevance. That's that's why it's that's why you don't remember it, but it happened We're not getting an s2d book anytime soon. So but like when could this thing happen? Yeah, I mean, I think noops just summed it up well anytime between two weeks and two years like some of our oldest rumor engines are almost two years old at this point, so You know like but sometimes you'll see one in the two weeks later. They'll do the pre-order for it It's just who knows man. There's no logic to it But yeah, sir, okay, what's next? Event model work Event model work. Yes, let's talk about event model work. So this guy we saw him already because he showed up at LVO and was given away, but we had they had officially announced him. So now here. He's out here. He is in all his Glory, I guess This is the He's got a stick But like is he slamming that stick down and like breaking a rock? I think that's what's meant to be happening. Yes Because oh, I Don't see movement other than the breaking rock Well, it's a very tiny rock Yeah, I definitely I definitely thought that was like a plant or something Well like yeah, look GW is not known for his OSL effects, right? So I mean it's not like that glow is really Popping off there as it were Here we go. Paul. What do you think of or a guy here? Do you like him blind guy with his weird eyeball headdress? Um, I actually do like the sculpt. Okay. Like I I don't dislike this I think I might actually like it better than the regular shaman sculpt Fair enough. Oh Other than that, I mean, it's not something that'll run out by the paint. Sure. Sure. It's certainly not gonna make me start a cruel voice on Fair enough hooves your take on this guy He's okay, I it's not something that really grabs me too much But I like just the fact that models exist. I can I can add them to my database and Look at them. But yeah, it's not what I'm gonna run out. Probably bet by myself When is that when is that database going live? Do you know how much work it is to actually catalog every single GW model? Oh my god At I hope sometime this year. It might not be complete in its entirety, but I definitely need to get something out. I Agree and even if it wasn't a hundred percent complete the reality is it be your your already Categorical knowledge of these things should be shared with the world. That's all I'm saying for those who don't know Who's has been working on a database of basically every GW model released with like year-end sculptor where you can get it Is that correct? Yeah, it's yeah, but it's mostly just it's more like Like an image bank Right in different health actions. Yep. So the image the name of the thing when it was released Who did it if we know? Cuz I'm gonna be doesn't always share their sculptors and This seems an incredibly valuable resource Because I don't think people realize just how many weird one-off and odd and different metal models They used to make especially when because the cost for for those who aren't aware like when models were mostly metal The cost of a silicone mold is really cheap I mean you have to pay a sculptor to do it, but the cost of the mold itself is is pennies by comparison to modern-day steel molds for plastic models, which can cost 52 You know more than a hundred thousand dollars depending on the complexity of the size of the mold So like it's a decision to make a plastic model They could they with silicone molds they can just be like gas or do that bang that one out for this thing or this thing It's just roll them out, you know Yeah, yeah, it tracks things like Models are named differently over many years where sure get named three or four different times and yeah, just think that Yep Absolutely, like a generic care a generic a special character will become a generic character will get a different generic character name that kind of journey Yeah, yeah, absolutely Yeah, exactly Anthony said yeah games day models absolutely there was so many different like things like that They would do yeah, absolutely So here we go with this guy. He's fine. That's my thing. He looks kind of like his skin is weird He looks like look at his leg. Do you see his like left leg? Okay, yeah, yeah Doesn't that look like kermit's legs in the times when you see kermit's legs on screen, right the Muppet Right it does look at that leg and look at how it looks like foldy like felt because of the way that it's been highlighted Tell me that doesn't look like kermit's legs It does maybe Thank you. Thank you, Paul. I can tell you're a Muppets fan. Good. Good man. All right I'm I'm trying to deal with the hand like the like the weird bone hand staff Oh sure. I Can't press the knuckles. Yes, like I can't not see that Okay, that's fine and just like see him like waving Hello Yes, no, it's just weird. All right. What do we got next? Let's talk about those war cry box sets War cry box sets pre-order now All right, Tom, you were talking to me a little about these so so you're a fan of these Sell us on these box sets Tom explain to us explain to the folks at home why they're a good deal. I mean, so you're getting For 80 bucks you are getting $120 worth of models approximately, okay Now for like the Lumineth here It's a little bit more complicated because you have to buy two boxes to realize that savings Sure, because you're getting like five sentinels or five wardens or something right like two boxes of the Lumineth We'll get you 20 of the cow guys. You mean 10. It's because it's fighting. I'm sorry Yes, it'll get you 10 of the cow guys 10 of these 10 sentinels and 10 wardens Which each of those boxes are 60 bucks. So That's 240 for $160 worth of boxes and then you can normally get the normal discount stuff too. So like it's a Really good discount. Also, if you play war cry, these will have cards in the boxes and I believe tokens normally they do And so these are what you need to kind of start a war band of these. This is where how they're selling the cards now And again, I mean in the US these are for 160 bucks you're getting $80 worth of or you're getting at $80 worth of savings. So it's actually It's actually a really good deal, I'm actually I believe ordering four of these war cry boxes for Lumineth Okay, so it couldn't be more perfect for me timing wise just because it like fills out everything that I was looking for And so it's a good deal But and there's stuff like this for slanash, obviously and some of the other armies So what I will say is this if any of this interest you buy it now and buy it quick because these war cry boxes once they're gone They're gone. Yeah. Yeah, sure. They don't keep them in stock. They don't keep them on the shelf So these are things that interest you buy now What is the list of actions that they're releasing these for? Oh gosh, what a good question. So Lumineth slanash doc doc. Yep daughters and stormcasts. Is that all from any of them? Cool boys. Thank you. That's the only one. Yeah, I I forgot about them just like the writers of the book did That's not fair. They're fine They're fine Yeah, I mean that these were when in their first go around because it's not the first time we've had these war cry boxes, right? And right the old version of them were a good deal. It seems like these are as well in many of the cases again with this slanash stuff It's like you're buying for the future. There's no better time. I guess buy when the stonks are low You know making an investment in slanash is just hoping for a really good third book Steve said no cards sold separate they haven't said so I think that the R2 years Yeah, because they're just relying on the tone of champions now because they keep updating things and changing points and stuff like that So they didn't want to keep re-releasing the cards, which is fine Because the tone of champions is up at the same time But yeah, I mean like these are pretty square on a deal I mean there they are cheaper than retail already and then the chicken the trick is because they're discounted in some way if you Then go and apply your normal discount to them of fit 20% or whatever you happen to get Suddenly you're you know, you're kind of double savings, right? So that's that's the advantage of them. Is it like free models? No, but it's a you know, it's a good deal. So there you go Is what it is. Yeah, I mean like said I'm getting a good number of the Lumeth ones because like I get it fills out my my army But even like the Yeah, there's like even doc doc is a great one Is basically Say what the dock one's not bad at least so we think at the moment That's really a blind purchase though because you know, there's some stonk movement coming on those right? Yeah But I mean the reality is this you get four Different kits with one box sure because you're getting both Basically full sprues for which elf and sisters of slaughter both the hunters and starters Yep, so I Don't know. I mean, I think that the boxes are pretty good. I Mean my argument would be I like them I'm glad they did the Toma champions Don't release third edition this year or said the next edition this year. Thank you. There we go Just keep war cries fine. We don't need a new edition. We're all happy with it Please stop so none of that and we'll be good I do wonder I do wonder how many people are actually buying these for war cry. Oh Sure. Yeah, I mean they they sold a ton of them last time and it was you know, you know a bunch of that wasn't You know a bunch of that wasn't for a it wasn't for war cry alone, but I mean whatever it's fine You know like okay, who cares if it's a cheap way to get stuff for your aos or you use it in war cry I don't care. It's all you know, whatever War cry is a good game. It was a good game models working both Thumbs up so there you go, so I say if it interests you it's just always a better buy Per per dollar than buying a standard Box of any of these models, right? It's just better than the normal kids. Yeah, you're getting out cheaper than that That's it. It's that simple, right like yeah It's less money there we go for the same products, right, right? So it's going on pre-order check it out Also went up this week It broke that hatchets new Like magazine aos subscription for third edition aos is going to be starting soon the first four issues are coming and It is a lot of models just like the previous one Yeah, Vince. I love that you use the image that I repo retweeted Yeah Where the people were highlighting like the tabs of whoever yes, I just cut the the thing yes The thing amazing Amazing Yeah, this is a really good deal. I got 60 no, I got 80 80 chain rasps on the last round of subscriptions like this Yep, okay. That's a lot of chain rasps Yep, like when I and at like ten bucks a chain ten like a basically a dollar chain rasps is what it calls me Yeah, sure. Here's hoping gut rip is get better Because man you're gonna get like you can easily pick up a ton of those boys on the cheap now So yes, I think either as well, right vindict like not addicted to her Whatever they're all everybody says vindicator drives me nuts vindictor Vendictors. Yes. Um, I mean the key is this it's It is it is UK right now Only um last time there was a company that I found that would like shift them to the US And that's what I ended up doing that's how I got mine But I don't know that that's happening although the new the conquest like the 40k one that just came out There there is a company doing us shipping for that for the 40k stuff So I would assume maybe we'll get a US version. That's delayed slightly delayed six months or so Yeah, I mean I'll say this if if this is available for a OS I will be a buyer So absolutely I Mean this is a way to this you want to talk about cheap plastic. This is the way to get them pounds of plastic on the cheap that is for sure Yeah, so yeah, they showed kind of the all-in thing and It's It's a lot now. It is across different factions as well right here you see stormcast and Cruel boys, but there was other more just like general order stuff in there and general destructionist But a lot of that was for the premium upgrade. I understand. That's not that's not for the like in general You're only getting cruel boys and stormcast Yep, there is an option in there because then that one also includes if you go for that version It also has the terrain and stuff like yes. Yeah, which is pretty sweet Which is pretty sweet like I I'm not gonna lie like I'd be tempted if I could get this in the US You know Hades ask a good question. Is it plastic? You really want is it worth the sub for me? No, I wouldn't take it even if I could get it Because I don't need gut rips and vindictors. I've got 20 vindictors. I'm good for all time like I am happy with that Done and dusted. I have my house to trade these fighters. I'm ready. I Need nothing else and I'm not collecting cruel boys because somebody else in our group is and I have no interest in them so nope But you know for people who might be looking to collect this stuff This really is a great deal a good way to get into it. So I mean I'm not gonna lie like I if I could get this in the US. I would for my son Like for my kids because these are like I can pick and choose the things that I want out of it, right? And the rest of it. I can just turn over them to learn how to hobby on Yeah So yeah, this is like the cheapest way to buy models Period. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I see. Okay. Hades clarified. It's not just premium It's Sylvaneth KO stormcast versus cruel boys gloomskites in the gargant not just the premium The premium is extra stuff on top of that. Cool. Good. Not good stuff. Good clarification. Hades. Thank you I thought it was all I thought all that was in the premium. So thank you But yeah, good deal. Um, you know, I'll be interested to see if it comes over the US I hope it does but if you're in the UK Hey Thumbs up I guess congratulations on your new gut rip a horde. I have no doubt that the GHB 2022 will price gut rip as accordingly and And we'll get rid of the monster incentives and go to hoard incentives or something like Units of more than X many models get this bonus or something and all of a sudden got the gut rip a meta will start Could you imagine like we get to the new GHB and they're like oh By the way, everybody gets four additional reinforcement, right? Sure. Yeah, like that could be what they do, right? It could just be the new season is the horde season Everybody gets some number of additional reinforcement points and if the unit started With 20 or more models all rallies now happen on a five-up or something like that, right? That could be The thing it's something to be like whoa Handbrake turn into the back into the horde meta, baby So yeah, yeah, yeah, it would not it would not take much. Sure. Yeah Well, that's one of the reasons why I mean I I collect a little differently than a lot of people I kind of slow grow everything sure over time and part of my reasoning for that is because I've been in this hobby long enough to Know that everything that's good. It will become bad and vice versa, right? Yes, absolutely I always say the story if I have had my scaven since 1998 and like they have been the best army in the meta and the Worst army in the meta and everything in between over time, right? I've constructed them to be all clan rats and melee fighters and all shooters because there's the only ways to play them and On and on and on I mean 25 years of scaven. It's it's a lot of ups and downs So All right, good stuff Paul do you like either of these armies you looking for your gut ripple horde? Not really interested in any of these in particular now totally fair They just fell flat for me as well. They're so I get it All right, they're gonna be a great deal for somebody. Yeah, I like cheap plastic. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, that's right You both have that collector gene No, if you like smell good, you like to sit on your pile and just paw at it It's not the collector gene as much as it is the deal gene Where I'm like, man, that's a good deal and I I don't want to regret not getting that deal in six months And at the end of the day like I know that I can just flip it on eBay. Yeah, so like So there's no like there's no loss there If I have stuff that I don't want I look at that in six months and go man I'm glad I didn't spend that money and now have to screw around with eBay. What a great day it is for me All right Let's talk about that beast of chaos. Why are we screwing around with anything else? Beasts of Chaos, let's do this the tome of champions this thing we hate No, I say that only partially ingest Tom celestial towing champions work right home celestial. Thank you. I apologize. I was still in the work right thing The tomes celestial. Thank you Paul much appreciated live live. I'm actually I appreciate it I I'm grateful. So Let's dig into these these changes shall we because this is exactly exciting stuff before we get into the specifics We're gonna do a quick around the horn. Here we go. Tom Excitement level one to ten about the beasts of chaos changes Go one through ten one being not excited ten being very very excited. I'm collecting beasts of chaos tomorrow go 11 I love it Paul your number I'm gonna go with a Three just because I'm really not interested in beasts of chaos as a faction to play If they got updated war scrolls that could slot into other armies, I would be very excited about it, but they do Calls each Sure Yes, classic enemy of Paul's favorite faction hooves of doom with your minotaur Channel photo and intro picture. How excited are you about this one through ten? I'm going for 12 here. All right The only downside is that we now know that the books can be you know way off, but right, okay, it's awesome So we didn't get a book. We all wanted to be so chaos book But let's look at what we got. So first off we get a change Oh, go ahead So you mentioned you know like Skavens had its ups and downs over the past 25 years. Yes has these two chaos slash Beastsmen ever had an up. Yes, absolutely. There have been times where it's been quite formidable. Yeah That mostly back in Warhammer fantasy Yeah, I can't think of any time in a OS where it's been a formidable though but Like in in Warhammer fantasy. Yeah, there were some times when beasts are pretty good Famously once bitten 360, you know ran a beast army took quite a bit of success. They were pretty po. They had they had some good play and various times in sixth and Little bit of seventh before the demons book ruined all of seventh So how about that? Yeah, I tend to think that there are some fantasy armies even in the AOS that are generally always pretty good like elves He's been come and go Yeah, absolutely. They've they've always had an elf bias Because so much of this just as a side so much of how they write their rules is top-down design and so like In this in the versimilitude of the world High elves are just better than everyone and they know it that was the story. We're just better than you there They're just globo gym written into a Facture yeah, so it was hence when people would write the rules They would just always overdo them Because they had to be better than everybody faster than everybody more skilled more magic better calm more and better range Just everything had to be better And it's so funny to me because their story is they're haughty and smart and capable certainly They're also dying and dumb and failed their entire civilization are locked in and the civil war Which does not speak to intelligence by the by So I Disagree, but at any rate we're not here to talk about stupid high elves We are here to talk about beastman Lot of comments about beastman people are excited about this It's amazing how many players just completely came out of the woodwork on this one like it's like everyone I was like oh my god I play piece of chaos that meme came up. You know something of a beast of chaos player myself. Yeah, exactly It's amazing what rend six will do for you. It's well. It'll get there. All right. Let's talk about what we got herd stone You set up the herd stone in your territory three inches from everything like all faction terrain great. It's impassable Also good fine. I'm glad they're making all these impassable. So you stop trying to pile models on them Which was always the thing Okay Entropic lodestone improve the rend characteristic of melee weapons melee Weapons only sorry on go raiders. You lose again But used by all friendly beasts of chaos units on the battlefield by one You're in zero your rend one your rend one your rend two your rend two your rend three Good times From the start of the third battle round improve the rend characteristic of melee weapons used by all friendly beasts of chaos Units on the battlefield by to to instead of one That's right. Every little Angkor spear is now rend to is now a fulminator has fulminator rend They are ready to do some work. Yes Good rule. Okay, and that's just obviously it's if for existing. There's no range on that. It's just if the herd stones around Locusts of savagery After this terrain feature is set up its range is 12 inches at the start of each battle round after the first its range Increased by six inches. So right off the rip. We got the improved range I think a lot of beast players in this chat and elsewhere had asked for please start at 12 instead of starting at 6 Right, but we lost some effect because if a friendly beasts of chaos unit wholly within the range of terrain feature It takes a battle shock test You have the number of models flea Rounding down instead of just making them immune to battle shock still good. Yeah In addition if a friendly beasts of chaos unit wholly within range of this terrain feature it receives the rally command You can return one slain model to that unit for each four plus instead of each six plus that is a big Yeah, that's a lot of rallying You know what this says to me Return on the double or sky fires. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, who could who can like zip back in and then refill their whole lot. Yeah Yeah potent on the double as well even for melee units, right? Because if you have a couple guys left and you retreat them out and then you pull the double you can rally back a ton of them Right and I agree with Cinderfall who says, you know having the the loss is better overall game design Than just being flat immune to battle shock completely re with with Cinderfall I'd love it if many immune to battle shock effects were just made Half run or something like that Yeah It's a shame to take an interesting mechanic and just You know, whatever. Okay, so the herd stone is pretty good. It's got some cool effects Let's talk about upsides downsides on this thing real quick It can be set up in your territory You may be tempted to put it toward the four of your territory like toward the forefront, right, right? So that that way that bubble is pushing out into the table farther But of course the risk if you do that is that all of a sudden some monster is gonna come in and just smash To rubble your herd stone and then all your all your precious rend is gone Yeah, that's that's that's a big no-no. No, it needs to be like mid table Yeah, I mean, it's there's a You're like mid to backboard this now and it has to have protection as well Right like it needs to be bubble wrapped in some way so people can't just come in and smash it away And Steve I agree with Bell you should listen to Bell. She is wise and you know this, you know, she's you know She's smart listen to your wife. She is This is a wise woman, so okay Yeah, I mean, it's super cool, but it is susceptible to being smashed by monsters, so yeah, it makes me want to Do a Zangor army. I'm not gonna lie. Sure Sure. Yeah so I think My only note on this is that with the scenarios that we currently have in the GHB Most of the territories are just your deployment zone So it's already gonna be kind of backboarded anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah No, it's a good point if you think of something like If you think of something like first blood, which is one of my favorite scenarios You have a minuscule deployment area there, right? And if you if you truly backboard that that means you're putting it like down here Where my pen is right now in the corner because your your deployment area is like this Right, so it's like way back here So that 12 inch to start is just gonna be not even barely escape your territory It's gonna be like round four before that thing is out there So Tom's point about something like skyfires or enlightened on discs or something like that They can retreat out of the midboard way back into the range like Shoot they can platform back there near the near the stone Yeah, there ranges in infinite, but yes, I understand your meaning My point is things like enlightened even where you might be in melee But if they need to retreat they can zip back into it. No problem Right because they've got the speed to take advantage of the rally So yeah, I Love it like I I had been wanting to do Zangor For a long time like I don't know if you remember like I had a bunch of zinge In fact, I sold all my Zangor to who's because I gave up on them finally Like doing something but like seeing this. I'm like, I don't know I can do Zangor army Can we can we talk for a moment? I just want to talk about two comments that were left in the chat Dan What's up, Dan who said straight front and center against night haunt? Yeah, that's that's often a safe bet if they don't have a mega gargantt ally No monsters to be seen there to smash that to rubble Unfortunately, the ability you're getting out of the rend is also the most useless against them So all you have is the is the battle shotgun rally thing. Yeah, which is funny. So Yeah, very potent change very interesting in what it gives us it gives us our first actual rend for It's so punchy Because you can because anybody in the army who was rend to such as Bulgore and stuff like that. There's a couple of the rend twos hiding around They'll they'll shoot up to rend for from round three on which is which is funny because we had rend three. We had rend five Didn't really have any rend for Despite that being the name of an existing club here in my home state Well, but with the new monstrous actions you can get up there. Well, we'll get there. Let's talk about it Okay So I'm glad you led us into this monstrous rampages. There's a whole new section of them You can choose to do one of these with your monsters Instead of your normal monstrous rampages. They are still Monstrous rampages. It specifically says so in the text like instead of doing a normal monstrous rampage You may do one of these monstrous rampages Okay Your generic one that any monster can use is primal roar Roll a die on a one nothing happens on a two through five you receive one primordial call point your summoning points And on a six you receive three Love this I love this because it's something useful as a monstrous rampage to do with one of your monsters every round even if they don't Aren't in combat like if there's no one for them to actually roar or stomp Or do one of these other things we're about to talk about Yeah, somebody can just roar Do this or a primal roar and boom it's three points Yeah, that's right there Okay So super good stuff there. I like that Uh Feast on flesh only a gorgon can be picked to carry out this monstrous rampage And the same unit can carry out this monstrous rampage once per battle Improve the rend characteristic of this model's melee weapons by one until the end of the following combat phase in addition The best two words in aos Until the end of the following combat phase each time an enemy model is slain by an attack made by this model This model heals a number of wounds equal to the wounds characteristic of that slain model That's quite a lot of healing If a what if a gorgon on one wound who's fully ramped up on the rend fights the top of his profile with the gurr rules And goes in ham on some unit that he can kill a lot of like a horde unit or something You know like if he gets into his dream fight getting into sentinels or something Hmm. He's gonna be back up at full at the end of that fight. Yeah. So It's a lot. It's a lot of stuff um So and that can obviously give him an additional rend so that brings uh, you know That takes the gorgon up to quite a number basically Because he's he's he can he can be very rendy Um, he's got a lot of attacks. So good Uh Devour spell i'm not gonna talk about it. It's for cygors. It's not very good You might use it occasionally if you have nothing else to do with your cygore, but why did you take a cygore? You've made a wrong choice They were bad. They're still bad. This doesn't make them better. I'm sorry. Yeah Yeah, this is this is the one opportunity to make them potentially good if I had a re-scroll I think I only will scroll but Could have done something Did not passed on that Blew that opportunity by So cygors still bad Good Uh, but gorgons could be interesting. I mean, this is a 155 point monster with a lot of attacks on rend 4 I would point out. That's like. Yeah. Yeah. That ain't bad Yeah, that ain't bad This dude is swinging around a lot of gol maras attacks for 155 points like It's rend, you know, rend three or four damage three. That's a that's a good profile for 155 points Uh and tropic miasba Only a jabber sleight can be picked to carry out this rampage pick one enemy hero within three inches of this model and roll a die One on one nothing happens on a two through five worse than the save characteristic of that hero by one Until the end of the following combat phase on a six worse than the save characteristic of that hero by two until the end of the following combat phase This doesn't do it for me. Uh, I don't care that much. It's okay Against like big monster heroes. It's not bad um Against like Some heroes can be protected too easily, but it's cool. It's effectively another pip a rend on all of this Um But yeah, it's okay. It's just close. That's the problem. It's danger close Right, you have to have charged that hero or something very close to that hero um The advantage to it is yes as as hades points out this does bypass ethereal Because this actually just worsens the save characteristic. Yeah. Yeah, which is good My issue with it is jabber sleights die fairly easy and a lot of the monster heroes you might want to put them into It's just going to explode on the swing back um, but You know as part of a combo charge or something like that It's pretty good You could get there Like you bring him in do this except he's going to die and then have the bulgur go ham or something like that Or the dragon ogres go ham or whatever Or the zandgor Uh, okay Uh thrice fold savagery only a chimera can be picked to carry out this monster's rampage until the end of the following combat phase Add one to the attacks characteristic of this model's melee weapons But all attack made with this melee models melee weapons must target the same enemy unit Okay, that's cool. I really like chimeras. I mean go ahead That only in particular Screws over jack from re-rolling once Correct who always splits his attacks. This is the anti jack rule get back jack um What I like about this is obviously the the chimera is a summonable thing for 10 primordial call points And that's a great summon to just suddenly bring him in and then have this as an option Uh, because he does have a built-in plus two to charge as well So he actually lands his nine and charge pretty easily Which means you can because he only actually needs to roll a seven And then he can just pop in there and suddenly that dude is that dude is rend a lot by the way depending on when you summon him up Yeah It's it's it's a little steep and point wise the the actual model But the one thing to realize about that is that there's like three or four attack profiles. I'm assuming each of those gets one Yep, correct That's a pretty nice boost Yeah, absolutely. I mean like I I really love chimeras. Just I don't know if I've mentioned this on the show before but I own five chimeras Um, I just think they're a cool model. So I have a lot of them Um, you are right that the you know the chimera He has uh, basically four melee profiles Okay, each head and then his his claws Yeah, and you know the rend on the base avian head the bird head is rend three Um, but it also diminishes. It's the diminishing profile item on there And then the draconic and leon and head are both rend one But damage two and damage g6 You know this guy can do damage and then his claws are kind of a nothing burger, but whatever um But the key is because you now have access to more summoning points as well through the primal roar Assuming you have some monsters. You can trigger that off It is more likely that you can get the chimera out fast that he can land the charge and then he can go do some serious work Um, because he's gonna be unwounded hopefully when he charges in Uh, assuming he doesn't eat non leash or something like that. So All right, any other thoughts on these gentlemen? I just like it Now I mean that overall they're they're pretty cool Yeah, I mean I'm gonna take this out this weekend. Uh, I should be able to get a game in I'm gonna see if I can't get all my gorgons and nonsense on the table. We'll we'll we'll give it a Uh, we'll give it a roll see what happens. See how we like these rules Not everything so why not give it a play Let me know if you're if you want to do uh beast for uh havoc this year event Sure, we're gonna do a fun video probably at some point in the future about One of my gorgons, but we'll we'll get there Uh, there are grand strategies and battle tactics. Yes, they exist That is all I have to say about these They shouldn't exist now. I've said all of them now. I've said my piece Okay, anything else we want to talk about these they're mostly bad to find Yeah, exactly These shouldn't be printed. They should be used. Please stop. Thank you. There we go Um, but good changes, uh, probably not everything we would want There's still a lot of dead scrolls even with these changes in there But this does open up some play especially in a high armor meta Uh, you know having an army of can openers Uh, suddenly hit the table matters even the Uh, you know even the rend one on everything Makes a lot of the rend one units that are running around a lot more scary Pushing everything in the army. There's there's a lot of rend one dudes rolling around in this army Well, and this army inherently is decentralized too. Sure So like it's uh It's just the whole table, right like so, okay, you're gonna drop down um You're gonna drop down long strikes. Cool What are you shooting my bores dangors? And anything you want you can ambush off table. So it's just it's a really interesting um Counter play in this current meta. I think that there's gonna be some strong lists that come out of it It'll be interesting to see if the combination of extremely cheap bodies, which oh we lost paul I'm gonna guess paul didn't find his charger and didn't plug his phone in but we'll see You can do 11 units of dragon ogre is very easy That like and still have room for heroes by the way Oh, yeah, you can do 10 units of zangor so that's 200 wounds sure I mean like that's a lot That's a lot of stuff like, uh Well 200 wounds of like rend two three five up six up ward and Rallying on four plus Yeah, so You know, we're talking about by the way when I say 11 units of dragon ogres as battle line Keep in mind that's with two shagoths a great bray shaman and A corn demon prince in there as well as an ally And still 11 units of dragon ogres like that's a lot of meat Uh to deal with yeah, so there could be play there You know the the the decentralized meat strategy In a in a shooting meta. I don't know what the I don't know what the loam strikes are shooting at I suppose the corn guy and then you're like, okay Cool cool story, bro You know the one unit that you don't have to use against range Right, right exactly. Yes. Yeah These dudes are all still coming paul are you back? Let's see if he's back. He'll be back in a second. I'm sure all right And then yeah, that just says that's just the monstrous rampage rules. So there we go. That's it. Is that the news? Are we done? Long news segment today? uh All right Sean said bellicor is an excellent ally to shut down key units, of course Yeah, we I mean bellicor the Cranberry of the demon world. He just gets into everything All right, let's move on to some pick of the week uh hooves What would you like to share with everybody? What's your pick of the week? Yeah? Well, I haven't uh, I haven't watched too much youtube in the last couple weeks But I'm so I'm going to plug something that we kind of already talked about But something that I'm really excited about anyway, I got the uh first few issues of the imperium magazine in uh today or well last week actually But I mean it's just one of those incredible deals that you can definitely onboard at this point Um and get in on that if you like 40k obviously, uh, if you're done with then who cares, but uh It is like, um, you'll pay over about a year and a half 80 issues You pay something like a thousand dollars. You get about two thousand dollars for a product Um, of course an idiot like myself does premium. So you get even more models because I'm fairly addicted to plastic um and If you want premium you have to sign on by the end of February So that's that's what I would point to if you have an interest in in onboarding because I know that, you know, there's always Contention about how expensive this hobby is and when gw raises prices people people get a little annoyed. I get that Um, this is the cheapest way you can buy models. So it's always a good deal for me All right sounds good. I love it. Uh, by the way, uh, autumn Yes, it sucks that there's no path to glory stuff at least that they didn't share here I don't know if there's more that's not here It I like I don't know if it's not in the book. These are the only three pages. It's a 12 page article So I don't know if there might be path to glory. That's just not in the the Shared images that could also be So there we go, uh Tom your pick of the week. What would you like to share with everybody? We have guests. I don't have picks You have guests. I don't have picks. Okay got it All right fair enough That's fine. I see out through you. So so you've what you're saying is you've watched nothing engage with nothing You don't want to maybe direct everybody to follow Uh, you know, like the holy words gt or holy hammer herron on twitter to align with our show Something like that No You can find them on your own. We're gonna talk about them a whole lot Okay, okay Got it Fair enough. Uh, well, I think you should all follow that as we'll talk about um, okay, so Uh, my pick of the week is we were just talking about piles of plastic And and shame and our good buddy ninjahn john ninas had, uh A whole video where he unpacked everything that he has hidden away in his pile of shame that he stashed All around his basement and uh, it will make you feel better About your pile of shame is my argument in probably most of anyone's cases except hoops Who will still look at that and go newb? It's nothing Uh, no, there we go. Paul's back. Oh, you got some mood lighting there Yeah, I uh, I don't know my connection I was in my basement and my connection suddenly was really bad and I don't know why Um, but I'm here. I moved back upstairs. So, uh Now I got some mood lighting. I got some nice flowers in front of me that I got for my wife for valentine's day Yeah, and hopefully my phone doesn't die Well, there we go. Let's hope so. Hopefully you're on a full charge. Oh, let's always keep your phone at 100% Not even close Okay, well, we'll we'll see what happens Uh, all right, polo. Do you have a pick of the week you'd like to share with everybody? The ninjahn video is linked below by the way Um, so a little bit of an unusual one. Um, we have total war war hammer three coming out like tomorrow um Yeah, and um There was just a like play through Uh, like stream that uh potato mcwhiskey did Uh earlier today Um, that was you know, like a nice preview of the game. So Definitely would recommend checking that out and his channel in general if you're into those sorts of games Very nice Hades is also shouting out our good buddy. Hey woe twitch who's going to apparently do a stream tomorrow playing ogres in total war More hammer three so yeah, I saw that cool So, uh, uh, I mean our good buddy. Hey woe twitch. You can find him at hey woe twitch on twitch because he's hey woe twitch It'll be a good time. Hey woe. All right, so Uh Awesome, let's talk about some hobby time. Well, obviously our shared hobby collectively this weekend was playing in a tournament Which took up a lot of time But uh hooves, have you got anything painted since you came back or before did you do some emergency painting before the tournament? How about that? Well, I mean I painted up my mega kid nergal, uh in the last couple weeks of january So that that whole army was painted up pretty quickly um Eager to go back to um, some black templar I was working on and then eventually Finish off my beast of chaos collection, but in the meantime, I'm putting together some verengard Uh, because I decided just on a whim to make like the hosts of the ever chosen army. So I have uh 12 verengard and archion obviously, but so that's gonna be kind of fun All the verengard the swords of archion very nice. That's right. That's right. I like it. Okay Uh Pull did you do any hobby either before or after the tournament? There he is. Oh wilt the nergal Yeah, exactly. This is my uh archion that I've been working on for a while Uh shout out to vince for providing one of the nergal heads for the conversion and uh, the other one came from oscar lars So shout out to you guys and an extra shout out to kathy for actually Uh managing to get the one from vince to in the mail. Yeah Was completely my wife. You're absolutely right She receives all the credit for that because you asked me do I have it? And I was like, yeah, I'm never gonna use it. You're more welcome to it And then like two weeks later you said did you actually send that thing? I was like, no So I just I I like put it in a little bag and gave it to my wife And I was like, can you please ship this to paul? Do you need his address? He's like, I've got it It's fine. She handled it. So she's a rock star Yep Uh, that's wonderful. Well, yeah, that's coming along awesome paul. Uh, love it man Yeah, I'm I'm gonna have to pick your brain for some technical questions on it later because I'm not sure how I feel about the wings but It's coming along feel pretty good about the body of it and uh archion himself I like how he came out. So you might need a little bit more work on the cape But the task right now is figuring out how to make the wings not look crappy It's uh, it is the big challenge on that model to pick part of it Yeah, Tom Did you work on anything this week? Yeah, so in addition to my lumeneth, which I finished up last week for havoc um I have uh, I am branching into a new career Maybe we'll see Um, I've started commission painting Mm-hmm, and uh, I am working on a 40 block of splintered fang that I'm hoping to finish up this week Um, and they're coming along fine very nice Well, my hobby time is going to be short and sweet because I've done a lot of painting and I can't talk to you all about any of it So there we go Yeah, good times Uh, but I was happy to see that article go up today with that imperial fist guy the faf faf near Faf near that's his name because it sounds like a joke faf near ran, uh, which was a super cool model So That was that was fun to paint and uh, yeah Um, but hopefully eventually I'll get I'll I'll be able to paint some of other things that I can talk about. We'll see um All right gentlemen Shall we turn? to discussing a little bit of uh A little bit of a tournament stuff. Should we get into some tournament stuff? I think we should Okay, I agree Let's talk about the main subject here. Let's bring up the prezzo the boom tournaments What makes them good here? I have a picture of our game our showdown This is early in the showdown between Uh, the four of us So the four of us just recently this weekend attended Holy wars, which is a tournament in Naperville, Illinois run by the one and only steve herner Uh, a titan a hobby hero If he hasn't already won the hobby hero award, he should right Yeah, exactly For those who don't know about this tournament, which we're going to talk about tonight I'll just give you some quick basics and understanding. This is a team tournament not like two players on a team playing together For this you effectively had 1500 points, but it's a little funny, but I won't get into the details but just know that each player had 1500 points ish And you so effectively it's 3000 points against 3000 points all in um Your you weren't allowed to share certain things like you couldn't both take the same universal artifact and spell and stuff like that And steve's tournament is notable for being a hobby focus tournament that has You know a lot of hobby prices and stuff like that But also being a very challenging tournament where the tables play as much as either of the players Um terrain and the tables are a huge focus steve has 18 custom tables That are all gorgeous and we're going to look at some of those in a little while so you can all get a glance at what these are and um And steve said nope. He hasn't won. Well steve that is an injustice An injustice. I say you deserve it. You are my hero Um, and I think we should literally start a petition. I agree. I agree The The thing about this event is not only is it hobby focused, but also the tables are very interactive in the game It doesn't use any of the standard missions each table has its own sort of mission That's on it When you go to play at that table, it has its own unique mission So everybody's kind of doing each round everybody's kind of doing a version of the same Thing, but it's different every table has its own sort of set of objectives. Yep And steve runs two tournaments every year both team tournaments. Holy havoc is the one in the fall Which should stay a thousand points steve Okay So, um the uh But the the tournament itself is just so unique and different interesting and it was It was really fun and tom and I got to talking about this on the way back because Tom and I Did two tournaments back to back the past two weekends So we did bruham or the weekend before which was here in my hometown in ohio And uh, it was a great tournament. It was a great time. It was their first year running it But it was what I would think of as a more standardized tournament right now again This is their first year. They're still going to find their voice their identity as a tournament, right? So I please take nothing. I'm saying as judging bruham or negatively in any way But it just was an interesting contrast between the two. I mean, I will be going back to both of these events next year That is the best endorsement I can give right is I liked both of them I had a fun time with both of them. I will pay them both money again to participate in these next year And but it was an interesting contrast between the two and I think that's what made us want to explore this tom. Is that fair? Yeah, yeah, I think that's accurate. It's just there's um, I mean part of it what came about was because we talked about how um How the holy events are just such a singular like Experience so much so that they have like their own uh Like it is not like any other event like a lot of events you go to um There are things that you would go to and you expect the same types of things And you just that's not the case with the holy events and in fact Like what teased us out for us by the way was that battle tactics Aren't a part of the experience right Right and we realize that they may actually be bad for the game. Yeah Let's do a quick round robin. Here we go. We got four people who participated in this tournament. Okay. Yeah, tom Did you enjoy Not having to choose battle tactics at the start of each turn Yes Paul Absolutely hooves Yeah, I'd say so I I agree like there's four for four. I don't know what else to tell you. That's a small survey. It's not scientifically It's not sorry. It's not statistically significant um But like it was great I was like, oh this this thing I don't have to worry about anymore I just get to play the game and because the tables are already so active and you're trying to go different places on them To do different things You didn't feel like you were missing anything. No No, right And it was fascinating that you like that There was another type of like secondary objective mechanic in play That was kind of like a base that the best thing you describe would be like a grand strategy that's changing every round um and And that gave its own activity and so like in general Uh, I didn't miss battle tactics. And so that's that's part of what brought this about was we're like Not only did we miss battle tactics like are they bad? Like are they not good for the game and the game experience? And we got to talking about like how the game experience was just so different at the holy event and And how that's a good thing Yeah, yeah, exactly so Uh Tournament basics, I'm gonna here's some summary thoughts for everybody. I'm gonna I'm gonna list my my summary thoughts Most players will never go to a tournament, which is a shame So Goon hammer put together a pretty fascinating survey I don't know if you all saw rob honest wargamer rob did a show on it. I haven't watched it yet So I didn't I don't know his coverage. I saw you did a show on it. I did read the goon hammer article Um, they surveyed a bunch of people they're in their audience. I think their n was 3,000 some or whatever Great great feet. So that's great response on it on it on this thing And now they're their audience is mostly 40k players as they self identified in the in the in the Um in the results, right? But they walked through a set of calculations in the article And their best guess was something like 0.4 or 0.6 percent Of players of the game will ever go to a tournament Okay Um, that's just like all in versus the sort of worldwide audience, right for the game And obviously they had to reconstruct that from some pretty interesting different sources, but it's it feels True to me is what I'll say like there's my gut sense of the thing, right? um And I think that is a shame I part of reason I also wanted to do this show was because to both talk to toos and encourage people to run tournaments but also to Talk about how tournaments can be more than just I think how people perceive them right, um Like I think the image of most tournaments is of sort of whack players all killing each other with the hardest lists Yeah, right And At basically every event I've gone to that's not the case Now there is a set of hard lists usually there and hard players usually there and they're Basically the people who are on the top five tables Right In any given cohort Whereas most other people at that tournament are people bringing a list that they enjoy that they wanted to play Who just wanted to have a fun weekend of five games And go three two or something like that. That's kind of their goal, right? Paul, what do you think? I mean you've done a fair amount of like tournaments Around in your area as well in other places. Does that ring true to you? um Definitely on The issue of like how many people actually go to tournaments um Out of my like local play group um We got like just as an example. We had 22 players in our last Path to glory league at our local shop Out of all of those people, um, I am the only person that regularly attends gts And there's one other person that has gone to a couple Like that speaks volumes to how many people there are out there That are playing the game that are not going to these big events and even You know when we're playing our normal games on our You know normal wednesday game night Unless there's something like a path to glory league where these guys can play smaller games like they're just not showing up Yeah, I mean my sense at most attorneys is that There's certainly Some tough players there, but most of time those tough players are still really nice people Uh, and it will give you a good game. They'll kick your teeth down her throat like they will win Okay, but I've I can only think of as I've always said I can really only think of one actually bad game. I've ever had a tournament And that was against tom so that doesn't even count I mean You're not wrong. Yeah, sure Like in general Most the people you play with are just fun and happy and happy to be playing warhammer, right? And somebody asked in the comments. I heard that aos tournaments are a lot more chill than 40k The players are more just cool as someone who's new to the hobby. It seems an easier start and my answer is Yes That is true Like as I've said on this show many times the average warhammer age of sigmar player is a 35 year old dad Okay Yes, I understand I understand I might be a couple years older. Yes Tom is it your birthday tomorrow? It is my birthday tomorrow. Everybody wish tom a happy birthday. Everybody hit like for tom You're not gonna send him a birthday gift Hit like tell tom happy birthday by hitting a like button. Boom. There we go. That's the connection. I've been looking for Okay, I'm not only not only Is it my bird? No, don't think we'll get demonetized Not only is it my birthday. I'm actually turning 40 tomorrow You are yes Yeah, you have to get like for that a new decade Um a new season of my life. It's gonna be great Uh, we're we're all excited for you tom Uh So everybody should hit tom on twitter and wish him happy birthday or whatever Um, we're just hit like now. We're put it in the chat or in the comments. Tell tom happy birthday Make it feel special turning 40 is a is a big moment, obviously um, so there you go, uh the you know, like they're My just perception of tournaments, especially once you're in the mid tables is that it's just a lot of fun It's just a lot of people playing good What we classically call middle table war hammer Right where it's not the hardest list. It's people playing stuff. They have stuff They like the units they want to run the armies. They want to run just having a good time And That's tournaments. That's 90% of what's going on at every tournament. So I just want to try to to have people say, you know Check it out. Like I mean many acted a video on this hit. This was his perception Right the tournaments were just whack people and he went to a tournament that was for What was it for a song of ice and conquest fire? War something. I don't know what those gave that game is but it's one of those rank and flying games And he went there and he was really surprised. He had a great time. He met cool people It was very fun. And that was he made a whole video about it. Like that. There you go so You know, that's that's what I'll say um Yeah, it's just not most turnings But I submit to you that beyond just the average tournament that there is a better tournament those with a soul And how do you find the soul of attorney? You look at the pack you look at the awards they have on offer You look at the tables and you look at the size Of the tournament Okay, let me break that down a little bit One the pack tells you most everything you need to know about what that tournament's all about Right if there are unusual rules changes or things going on like if you look at steve's pack It's very different than most tournaments packs. Yeah Right in a big way, by the way, it doesn't even go public until like days before the event, right? Sure But the pack will communicate a lot about what the event Is like but the That is to say the army building pack goes live far before that obviously Tom Yeah, and that tells you a lot about sort of the way that the tournament's constructed Are you not playing 2000 points? Uh, I think of like bruce city brawl, right or not Bruce city. No, is that what it is? Maybe I haven't been there. Yeah, just brendan runs out of 3k, right? I'm not wrong I got to get up there sometime, but he keeps holding it in the middle of winter in like wisconsin I just I don't know what that's a that's a bad combination So The like the pack says a lot about the what the tournament what the tournament organizer feels the thing is about Yeah The awards say a lot about what it's about, you know, if you see lots of hobby awards That tells you kind of something just as if you look and see there's a Best overall a best general a best in each faction or best in each sorry grand alliance Right. Oh, yeah. Okay. This is a more battle points focused tournament Right There's nothing wrong with any of this. I'm not making a normative judgment. I'm just saying It get like look at this to determine if it aligns with where you are in the experience you want to have You can read what you need to read With where you like understand what you need to understand without ever ever going to the thing Look at the tables If people have run the tournament before Look at the tables in the event Right look for pictures from that event, you know, I saw some pictures over the weekend Well, well, we were having an amazing time on these gorgeous tables that steve has put an Unreasonable amount of effort into I was looking on twitter at a tournament in the uk where the table was just a flat nothing with like four four dispersed nothing pieces of terrain And I was like no Never I just wouldn't go That's not a table. You didn't no effort was expended there Like I know it's hard getting terrain as a to is one of the hardest things you will do. It's costly It's exceedingly time-consuming Storing it you have to store it. It's a pain from top to bottom. And you know what? Yeah Yeah Which then leads me to my next point. Look at the size And here's my most controversial point The bigger the tournament Often but not always the less of a soul it will have Okay Because When a tournament comes hits a certain size 200 people Plus people It's just hard to generate for a to to generate that amount of unique terrain to generate that amount of experience Things almost have to be very standardized because you have such a wide swath of people coming Right, you don't want it, you know, which which by the way can be a benefit like we'll talk about that in a minute But it's often difficult it just kind of becomes generic large tournament, right? And honestly, those are the ones that interest me personally The least Maybe they don't that's not true for you Because if you are someone who's looking to like test your skill against a wide field And you look at the size of a big tournament and you know, there's going to be a lot of really strong players there Then that is someplace you should go That's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. What you're looking for in that case is the standard experience Right That's going to let you test your skill skill against skill on Right But you can read a lot from the size of it Okay, those are my points. What do you guys think? Hoves, what do you think of my what do you think of the the summary? Does anything you would disagree with? No, I didn't in general break I would agree with pretty much everything. I mean the whole especially like the I've been to have a couple times. I've been to holy wars. I've also been to you know smattering of other other tournaments and The holy experience is definitely unique and fun and very much original. You don't get that pretty much anywhere else And I think that's what makes it really special but There's not to say that other people couldn't channel tournaments into Completely different avenues or or push other elements of it. Yeah, it's something unique elsewhere Yeah, I mean like you look at like the raw events Over in the uk, right? That's a great example of a completely different take on a narrative event. Um At nova they run an incredible narrative event where like in between games There's scheming and people switch teams and there's all this crazy stuff going on like it's because it's effectively dm'd Right like like dungeon mastered game mastered So there's lots of different ways it takes on this and by the way I'm not again just to be super duper clear I'm not making an evaluative judgment on saying one of these is better than the other Okay, what I'm saying is They are all different And there are lots of different forms this can take and there's probably one out there for you Right, right regardless of the experience you're looking for you Just got to figure out. What's the what's that tournament experience that you want to have paul? What's what's your what's your thoughts? um, I definitely agree um, and I've Been to a decent number of tournaments. I've been to a bunch of different ones. Um, not just like the same ones over and over again um And I've definitely found like yeah, the bigger they are the the more Um standardized they feel Yeah, um And like there's one in particular that I've been to um a number of times now uh deboys in uh, rochester new york um, and I went to the first one. I went to was 2017 I believe and I've been like every year since with the one year off for covet And the tournament's grown from like 30 something players to like over 100 And over that time you could see that like the the way the terrain rules were changed what the price structure was changed the Players that it was attracting changed um You know it went from being an like, you know just another gt to now it's an itc event and so it attracts people for that um Yeah, I don't mean this in any way as saying anything bad about the event. It's one of my favorite tournaments that I go to Um, but it's changed and evolved over time as it's grown and it definitely it follows this pattern that you're talking about Yeah Yeah, I think that there's just almost a natural evolution that happens right as a attorney grows large The to has to just sort of mass produce terrain create more standardized tables create a more standardized experience Because there's going to be such a wider swath of people who aren't just sort of people who very carefully self selected Into this right like they've got if they are going to do this they got to sell 200 tickets So they got to appeal to a mass audience Right, it's no different than if you you make an indie movie if you're a 24 You can throw a couple million in an indie movie and tell a weird story Right, but if you're a marvel you got to get you got to hit four quadrants here There's just no choice to it. You know you need to make a billion dollars or whatever Right Okay, tom. What about you? Yeah, so what I'd say one of the things that strikes me is that it is like I like I don't want this to be a devalued of that statement But there's a sense in which The question is is what is the experience you're going for? And I think the you've kept you've continued these language of tournament And Even the title it is the question what makes a good aos tournament Sure, and my pushback would be I don't I don't like that language okay You want something? I wouldn't I would rather say event because um, I think a tournament is one subsection or a set of experiences Within the range that we're talking about. That's a good note. Actually. I like that because the tournament is more of the like Battle point focused and so when people talk about tournaments, they're talking Oftentimes they're invoking this like ranking structure In this contest of generals and stuff like that and if that's what you're looking for Awesome, bless you And I'm glad that we have a system out there. That's that's there but to me What I love is the experience that we had this weekend. Yeah, sure, which is not that Um, I mean Dude just to give you a glimpse like the holy holy wars at this point in its history It's went through it's it went through its own set of evolutions, right? Yep. Yeah, um, it moved from a Largely mimicking a standard tournament Single player To now holy wars is a team event where You self select your next opponents, right? You can grudge any round basically you grudge every round It's random initiative as to who gets to pick either your table or your matchup if you're not grudged And what's interesting is for those that want to like win on battle points that are chasing after that trophy They end up head hunting the other teams that are ranked high Right. Well, and another interesting point there is you couldn't do that system at a very large tournament Right has to be relatively small Right Because the matchup time would just take forever Right, right, but I mean Steve. I mean this was uh, uh, the I think he had 18 tables set up There are some drops and so I mean it ended up being less than 50 people But the reality is is that uh, it's um Like the format was conducive to something that it created this very unique very sweet experience Yeah, um, and so I think that um So when we talk about events with soul, I think part of that is the question of like what is the unique thing What is the identity of the event and I think a lot of that sits in awards Like what are the incentive structures that the event organizers have put in place? And that's being communicated to the players of what they want to see the players do Yeah um And I think that that's beautiful to to to really You know to lean into that and so like but you can still have tournaments That have soul absolutely And so like this isn't just tournaments versus like like narrative events or whatever Because like I think about nash con nash con is an excellent picture of this Nash con was pushing 100 people with cobin drops. I think they were mid 60s 70s this year and um It is a standard tournament. The difference is is that it's a two-list format Right, so it has an identity that is very distinct from other events Well, and David also is a hobbyist has a lot of hobbyist type awards as well more than just there's more than one sort of hobby award Right, but there's also a good number of battle awards. Like it's a wide swath of awards There as well, right? There's lots of things to play for he had a special award for who killed the most monsters You know that kind of thing, right? There was lots of ways to engage With nash con so not only was it the two-list format different than that standard, right? But it also exactly what you said the awards the incentives it created Like the guy who was hunting monsters and killed 20 monsters over the course of the tournament to win that prize 20 monsters I want to lock that in everybody's head. There are five rounds in a tournament That means over the course of that tournament that dude killed an average of four monsters per game That guy was on a mission, okay One he could control, right? Like it's like likely what happened is he had two sons matchups and he's like, oh, I'm gonna get this Yeah, sure. I mean, but there were still three other matchups He's just had to go every monster on the this board will definitely be dead by the time this game is over right right right and so You know my point is is that you're absolutely right like that's a more traditional tournament But it still has an identity, right? There's things that are being done there. It has a feel to it Let's talk about so that's a great transition to talk about standardization So should turnies act alike? I think this is pretty simple, but I want to talk about the benefits and downsides of standardization. Okay the benefit of a standardized format and set of rules Is that we can track a larger set of data understand the challenges and inequities in the game from a data-driven perspective And players can rely on knowing what they're going to experience. There's no downsides surprises Right, right. There you go Uh assistant ref says he saw that 14 cockatrice list and was like this is my lucky day. Yeah, exactly If only that person had been there. Oh boy. Oh boy Um, I know there was no that list wasn't there like there is a value to this Right To a standard experience to being able to match your skill now, I don't list in here in any way And this is personal bias. This might be worth the point of discussion But I don't list in here the idea of having player rankings or anything like that I couldn't care less. I'm sure some people do I don't know why What I mean by that is like I'm sorry about whatever other shortcomings in your life you might have that you feel the need to to justify this But like you're a good person out there person in the audience who might care about this sort of thing I believe in you. You're a worthwhile human being. You don't need to be Seventh in whatever to had justify value as a human being. You were perfectly fine. Okay So I don't like we have lots of ways society is all just measuring ourselves against others I'm not sure I need to see that in my fun hobby wargaming or that it breeds a healthy community Is my point I don't think the downsides are worth it Maybe I'm wrong But that's my personal take Tom Thoughts, I'm sorry. I'm trying not to laugh. Um, I understand Uh, that was the soft version of that. I've been thinking about this for three days Uh, no, that's fine. Um, I think that uh I think that state I think if that for some that's the experience they want Okay, and and if that's what you want like I don't want to yuck you you're young And there's a lot of events out there that are beginning to cater to that. I mean gw itself has bought into a support system Right that it will be able to deliver that experience um, but I think that there is a broader more beautiful non-standardized world That we can also embrace and I would love for us to to look for opportunities to Um to facilitate that Yeah, I mean to be clear the two things I listed here as positives I do believe in like so having standardized tournaments that allow for aggregate data to be collected That can drive development and balance of the game Is a good thing full stop Okay that's To me an overwhelming positive because everybody benefits from that People who never go to turnies benefit from that Right Because they get better books better balanced books better play experiences on the table Etc. Etc. That's positive It's a big positive Okay but You know, I don't need to know who the third ranked ko player in kansas is or whatever Because they travel to more events or because they because of however, whatever. Yes system being Because priority ended up working out for them in a in a handful of instances or whatever. Yeah, sure. Um Yeah, now The and by the way having an experience that people know they're gonna like hey, I played the game a bunch I know how to play the game and then they show up to the tournament and that's how the game plays Right, that's valuable Especially for lower information players. So they don't have to learn a whole new subsystem That might lay lay on top of some of these events Which can be scary and intimidating So totally fair Okay Uh and so Yeah, exactly what what garith is saying and and I agree with that right Um, like that's why i'm saying the the standardized experience is super valuable garith. I agree um because I know how to play the game and then I show up and oh that's the game we're playing It matches my experience Right, this is a good thing That's undoubtedly a good thing And if you're going to deviate in some way you better be clear about it in the pack And really explain what's going on in a in a way that makes it clear to a lower information player Otherwise, you're just you're just setting people up to have a bad time Right, and that's what events that's what event packs are supposed to do is clear that gap Yep And so I think there is real value To the standardization right in in these two cases, but there's a downside to it as well Which is sometimes we can lose the soul of the events right, um Different tourney formats can allow for different lists different types of armies different play styles different people To come to the fore and to have participate in in a way they might not otherwise do Yeah um You know we talked about this a little bit but because the nature of steve's tables crushing so hard because the tables take such an active role in the game A lot of the things that would normally be good in aos are just not They're just not in in in like that in in the holy events Death star units or like long strikes are a great example That's it. That's a terrible unit on steve's tables. Those are dead like The table will just kill them There's not enough wounds there The point to wounds ratio is way off Right and those guys are just dead not to mention. There's so much big giant terrain on steve's tables Like steve has real line of sight blocking terrain that actually has those rules It's not as it physically block line of sight But much of it actually has a rule that blocks line of sight like steve uses real line of sight blocking rules He uses effectively a version of the terrain pack. We had talked about Right so your stupid sentinels could certainly be cheaty But something like long strikes you're taking those and you're really hoping You're hoping they don't die to the table You're hoping they don't die to some weird ambush rules that every army suddenly inherited on the table you're on Right, you're hoping they actually have a shot. They can resolve on anything valuable Right, so all of a sudden a whole like the highest battle point list Other than us Was at the holy event Was a beast of chaos list Double beast of chaos double beast of chaos that was a ton of dragon ogres and minotaurs And they weren't using by the way, they weren't using the new rules. Obviously. No, this this is without tome of champions Saying it without tome celestial Okay But they just had the bodies to go play the game to play the tables to play the scenarios, right Insummoning and mobility and all this. Yeah, exactly. So it just it allowed very different things to come to the fore right Which was cool Paul, what would you think about this since this was your first time at this event? Did you feel that? I mean you you guys ran double nergal. We'll talk about your games in a little while But what how did you like, you know, nergal is More or less seen I think it's a pretty mid table armory army with a few strong maybe competitive veins and some here or there But you guys did great Yeah, we went for one. Yeah You were fourth place overall as a team Yeah, did a great job How did it feel playing like the nergal army? Did you feel the resiliency did it feel like good on those tables? Like you could do what you wanted to do so on and so forth um The It felt like against the tables. It definitely felt less resilient than it feels against everybody else's armies Yeah, since he has super wounds that punch through your save. Yeah Yeah, you know when you're the table is dealing out, uh, you know, holy wounds that You know, you don't even get a ward save against You know, and then you're just uh hoping to have just sheer wound count to soak everything up Which you know, I think we kind of had I think we were at like 211 wounds for our 3000 points um But yeah, I mean it It was a really interesting different Tournament that or event really event is the more appropriate word because it's really not a traditional tournament at all um It it has realigned for me Like how I look at all other events and where I want to put my time and energy And money into going to events Yeah, no makes sense And that really goes to my last point which is different events different turnies can emphasize different aspects of the game The hobby the narrative the community all are present But again, those can be brought to the forefront and that's all valuable right by the way None of that is to diminish the ones that are just valuing again the contest of sort of generals But i'm also not worried about them. They're the majority. They're out there. They're gonna always be out there Right, we're gonna always have that as an option and I and those have value great value see positives I just talked about right So my argument is basically here. I like variance variance as value um And so like I have here highlighted mcdonald's as a reference All right, here's what I mean by that You go to mcdonald's More or less anywhere again. I understand sometimes they have regionalized offerings on their menu So you can um actually me all you want I'm aware that different mcdonalds and different park corners the world different parts of the world have Unique elements on their menu But mcdonald's whole thing is it's meant to be a standardized experience Like if I'm eating mcdonald's here in my hometown and then I drive to california or somewhere else in the country Or go up into canada or over in the uk. I'm doing I was down in australia and we got some mackeys You know It's the same It's standardized experience. I know what i'm gonna get Nothing bad about it. It's quite delicious actually I don't eat it much anymore, but god knows it's good But i'm not eating it all the time right Like variance has value and I think that the us right now has a lot of variance across geographies. We're going to be talking soon With uh some west coast people who I have a real blind spot for out there The west coast scene I have my perceived biases of the west coast scene But we'll see what it's like So we're going to have an interesting discussion about that but right now the us has a lot of Variants across the geographies. I'm sure other countries do as well, although I don't know their individual scenes as much An individual tos can flip she can shape the flavor of their attorneys their events which I which is what I want uh And I want to see variance. I want to see variance amongst things like the prices We talked about Nash con we talked about the holy events right tables Points in format altering the points values making it teams or other formats You know the big popular thing over that that I know honest wargame rob pushes a lot Is this sort of four player team format with the captain right so what the sort of I guess WTC or etc or whatever those organizations are called Holds zero interest to me Zero Flat out could not care less about the whole thing. It seems like an insane way to play warhammer that only the only Europeans would think of Okay um But they but they love it and again, I'm not going to yuck. They're young like despite my previous joke I just made it's very popular and people do like it And great I'm glad that those events are out there And had an offer that experience because there are different kinds of competitive experiences too. Those have value in the same way Right so all right Tom did I miss anything there on this? I know I was going to make a joke about uh The team event being the the olympic equivalent of curling, but won't just move on Ha ha ha ha Paul any thoughts? um, I think I I think there's overall like a place for everything and I think the The to's and other event organizers out there need to look at the demand or different event experiences and You know offer up things that are Appropriate for what people are looking for. I think there are just not enough events out there that are Like that are doing something different You know that it doesn't have to be anywhere near The level that steve puts into his events You know, it could be something as simple as well our event, you know, we're Going to use some different terrain rules that are more impactful or we're going to just Uh put some specific terrain rules on tables. We're going to have a different list format We're going to have restrictions on list building. Um, we're going to have a 3000 point List instead of a 2000 point list. We're going to have a two list format um, we're going to have a teams format, you know Just have more options out there available. I think there's a lot of things that You know You know, we have this expectation of You know, it basically just playing out of the general's handbook And I think there's too many tournaments that do that right now and not enough that are Saying, okay, we're doing this You know, we're playing out of the general's handbook, but we're here's our twist and even when it's If you're looking at something being easily acquired by a new player or like, hey, that's the game I play at home I'm going to come to this event and play the same game I play at home Have it still be easily recognizable. Have it still be Like tangibly the same thing But you can throw some extra rules on top or take some things away or something to Yeah, or even just shape the prize offerings, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah 100% Usually it's kind of structure. Yep Absolutely, absolutely agreed and You know, I think that there's real value to doing that like I and I think the point that I'm trying to drive home here From my perception of this is the traditional way to look at value in tournaments events, whatever The way that we all talk about it sort of just in common parlance is bigger is better How often do you hear like the biggest warhammer event in the world or something like that or the biggest AOS event? I don't care I don't care All right Like I have no part of me wants to go stand in a big crowd of people If I walk by a place and I see 100 people in line, I go great I don't mind there's nothing in the universe that could be in that store That it would make me want to get in that line nothing They could be giving away bars of gold bullion and I would be like pass Not worth it Okay Bigger isn't better What I'm arguing is what's better Is having an identity having more events that offer varied experiences Right Well, I mean at the end of the day, wait one of the variances can be big events Yes, that's my point. It's that it's a it's you're we're casting two small a net When the only thing we evaluate of quality is the size. No a big tournament is cool A narrative tournament is cool an event that shapes the rules is cool Somebody who creates an identity or just makes it a 3 000 point thing. So totally different lists are there. That's cool The cool is in the different experiences. I'm sorry. Go ahead, tom I'm gonna say that paul. I mean, I think tapped into it like there's a lot of these standardized tournament experiences and If I'm going to go to 12 events a year All of those are competing for that same space And so I'm going to throw in a holy wars. I'm going to throw in a nash con. I'm going to throw in um Some of those weird events and then I'm down to like, I don't know maybe six to eight That are going to be Standardized and though then the question is is what does your standardized tournament invite me to do that? That the others don't also offer in a better venue or whatever else and so I mean Yep, there is a sense in which like going non-standard in some direction Can actually like Cement your place in the scene if you're thinking about an event about organizing an event Yeah 100 and you know, I just want to call something out here that I think is a good point Frogom said to play devil's advocate not every local attorney to is a good game designer who understands how to balance or play this rules That said though, I do want more variants and tourney rules I agree and if you're not comfortable with that as a to cool Don't do a different rule set use a standard rule set but change your prices or work hard on your terrain You know go out and find somebody's got a 3d printer and and and have some really cool terrain experiences Right and make that your thing like you don't need to be a rules writer to do what we're talking about You know you can just say hey, we're doing a 3,000 point tournament or a thousand point tournament or 15 or point or something I don't we're gonna do teams thousand points each Whatevs You needed no rules knowledge or rules design there to make it a different experience right to make it to make it something That's that's uh, that's gonna have play differently. It's gonna provide for a different Uh a different experience than than the standard I'm just gonna side like a lot of people, you know talking about the financial viability Um, one of the challenges is just the cost of venues and of doing all this stuff I'm eating more tables and so the answer is is we need more people in order to like fund the venue space Here's a hit folks Team solves that problem it does because then you got you got four people per table instead of two It's a right. It's a good way to go and And it solves the like the cost at entry costs like if everybody's still paying the same entry cost You're cramming more people into into smaller venues It also can be easier for newer players to come to a team tournament with a friend who might be more experienced as a tournament player Because they're not standing there alone Yep, right um like If you're a newer person who hasn't gone to tournaments before But you've got a friend who has been around a little bit They can say Hey, it's cool. Come with me. We'll be standing at the table together. We'll be making decisions together. I got you back You know, you're not alone in this You know like that's and that's really important Uh hooves Jumping over to you here. No reason Yeah, well exactly. I mean it it um, you know, I guess is uh A prelude to the tournament. I mean, I hadn't played a game in probably over a year. I hadn't played 3.0 I hadn't even played my army. So uh, the onboarding of of the tournament was a little rough for the the pregame, but I think I Kind of managed to get into the groove and started to I think make some decent decisions and we pulled it out and won most of our games So that's a good good sign. But I mean I to to the broader points here. I mean like this is a wide community And the game is not always hyper focused for a lot of people in the warhammer hobby um, like I I Mostly be from lack of opportunity. I don't always play that often like like I said, I hadn't played in the right year um, so And there are plenty of people that just paint models and don't play the game So like I the the holy events appeal to me as an individual Um, but it's it's not it's not my standard that everyone should be like me You know, sure. There are plenty of people that obviously enjoy different things than me. I mean, that's that's obvious So it should be a wide spectrum of different options that you can do Yep, agreed Uh heavy d6 said how many points is our team tournaments? Usually if we're talking about the sort of two player format or two people actively playing together Uh heavy, um, usually it's both people either have a thousand points or both people have 1500 points meaning you equate You know in in aggregates to either a 2000 or 3000 point list So, um, you know, and there's some variants in that But that's usually the standard Which is just nice. It really is it's amazing how many things problems in this game disappear Would you shrink the list even a thousand or 1500 points a piece? It's amazing how many things just go away as a problem? Uh, but not being a 2k So, okay cool Anything else we want to say on this gentleman before we move on to our next section All right, and uh shout out to josh. You said reteams having an experienced teammate was incredibly helpful It made for zero intimidation factor. There you go. That's what I'm talking about. That's fantastic. That's wonderful to hear All right, let's do a little recap of fully worse. We've talked a lot about it I thought it'd be fun to just kind of do a little recap here um Just because I want to show people this maybe inspire some people hopefully get some more people to Uh come join that gareth city prefers doubles to teams. Okay. Yeah, that's probably a better name Yeah, because I know teams is often the four player format Um, so I'm okay with that gareth. It doubles. That's fine If that's the name we're using I'm good with that Uh, whatever arose by any other name would smell just as sweet in my estimation. So there we go Uh, all right I'm just gonna cycle through these real quick while we talk and what I want to do here is Paul like you guys are gonna talk and I'm just gonna cycle. I'm not gonna talk about this for a second I'm just gonna these are all pictures of the tables Uh without army setup on them. Tom took all these the night before What do you think of the tables overall? Paul um Some of the uh absolutely the best tables that I've ever played on um just incredible terrain in general both the um the appearance of the terrain the design of the tables the Eaming of the tables how You know, none of the tables just felt like a bunch of random stuff thrown on board. It was You know, everything was thematic. It went together. It made sense. It was There was A clear setting for the game that was being established by the terrain and the board Yep, absolutely Hoops, what do you buy you? Yeah, I mean, it's I think what were there 18 tables or something like that, right? Um, uh What I like about it is that every table is unique And not just in terms of looks but in terms of what you need to do on each table Each table is doing different things to you. You have different objectives for every single table. So it's almost like there are 18 different games and then when you add in the different Matchups between different armies and everything else. It really is like this It's mattering experience that you truly get some Very unique games of of warhammer that you can Really never have anywhere else Yeah Yeah, and there's a lot of different varied terrain on these tables and remember he's using terrain rules So like some of these things will just block line of sight or be impassable or you know, whatever, right? So you have to play around to them most of these big things are impassable or or something like that Um, and they interact with you in lots of different ways Um, so even if they seem open It like some of them seem more open. It's like no, no, no, no This is not Have you definitely not? Oh, no, not yet about to come up. Yeah, that's right here The neural table is a great example of that where like the the green streams themselves Just blanket block line of sight Yeah, and the one thing that's maybe really unique is that every single table is doing it's very best to kill you as well Yeah, they all do tons of damage. It's very best. Yes. It's it's it's absolutely just Go and ham on your army, especially depending on what you want to do and where you need to move Which by the way where you need to move is usually wherever the most damage is being dealt by the table right Yeah Um, one of my personal favorites. I do love the desert table. This one's a lot of fun Um, it's fun because in this particular event this little terrain piece in the middle You have to throw bodies into it which kill them You have to just you know, like one of your goals is to get as many people as you can to get eaten by Nagash and Yeah, it's like so you have to actually sacrifice your own units to win. It's a good time Yep, it's a it's a good place to have a good rally and life swarm Sure. Absolutely. Yeah Vlad's tower I should be saying these names as I cycle through them because they all have names They all have experiences. They all have settings and stuff like that shifting sands. Yeah, the previous one was shifting sands. Yeah um Some of these and so somebody asked uh, elo here asked is the table that is symmetrical work better or not Some of these are quite symmetrical. Um, some of them are not Um, but they have very different experiences based on the sides you're on and by the way It doesn't necessarily mean one side is more positive. It just means that like Uh, you're gonna have a different experience depending on which side of the table you end up on I don't I don't know that there is a simple answer to that question elo here. I think it can vary I think what you don't want is one side of the table to be super good Like it's all positives and roses if you're on one side and one side of the table to be super bad And that's true if you're using like mystical terrain or anything Right, you just Yeah, so you can have them Asymmetrical experiences as long as they're equivalent in normative value. I guess Go ahead. I think in the past three tournaments I've never had like a conflict over what side people wanted to be on I think it's kind of whatever side you walk up to it seems for the most part at least in games I played right This is a new table. This is uh, the big tower of blood This table is a super amount of fun Just to give everybody an idea of what we're talking about when we say there's effects You know, so this like big giant blood river slows down your run Just everywhere The but but all these forests allow you to teleport between them You can mystically teleport between the forests. They have the forest also a block line of sight completely And one of the things you're trying to do is get bodies around this central tower and make offerings to corn Which means you take a bunch of wounds. You can't resist and and that's one of your goals Is to like make the biggest offering to corn and then the little towers you can hurt yourself to get a bonus So there's a lot of different stuff going on here on this table Yeah, right and that's all resin pour on all of it and it's beautiful. Yeah, it's a great table We played on this one as well Uh, this one being a particularly exciting one. This is the azure, uh, table one of the two azure tables um This one's just great because you don't want to go in the water To to be to just like explain everybody what's going on this one. It's this sort of vienna setup with the the city over the water and um, you don't go through the water You only walk on the little boards and you might think well, doesn't that offer a huge advantage to flying units? Since they can have all this different these different things going on It would but don't worry these little sewer grates Allow you to move between them as well. So like the board is designed that different units can uh Can still move around the table in different ways. I think steve put the grave tokens in the water, didn't he? The grail tokens Yeah, I think you had to go in to capture them. Oh, I'm sure he did that feels like something steve would do. Yeah Going to water and die Um, this table is amazing It's only steve can set this one up because it's so complicated some of these are real Like tom and I have unpacked and set up many of these tables. I've never set this one up I just I skipped this one. I'm like steve your turn Uh, this is the other azure table, which is the floating islands So it's actually, you know, sort of three-dimensional you can like take the stairs up There are also portals as you can see there are little realm gates that you can teleport between To get up there flying units can hop up to the top stuff like that Because this one's a real challenge um Uh picture is very upside down. I apologize everyone, but this is the big crumbling brass fortress Uh, this one's a real good time because that lava is not for show You know a lot of times we play on maps that have like lava You know talk about like you roll out the table war or the the mat or whatever And it's got lava on it and all your people are just just running around on lava like it's not a thing Like it's not insanely hot that would just melt you instantly Yeah, that's what this lava is. It's not there for show. It's there for rules It's there for melting. It's there for melting. Yes The only safe place is to get in the middle of this giant fortress that will also kill you Yeah, yeah Everything on that table hurts you. It's a very dangerous board. I mean, it said they're supposed to be in the chaos waste So what would you expect? Uh, the scaven engineering uh plant here Uh, I love this one. Uh, this one's real fun because the giant warpstone crystals and stuff like that Uh where you're trying to go around and actually start the reactors and those deal damage to you because they're a scaven Made items, of course Uh bugman's brewery classic classic one right here with the big mountains and again the forests and stuff that are blocking things in Uh, you you ultimately are going to have a big bar fight and this one That's kind of the point of this one to get around the bar get drunk and have a big fight And oops sorry boop and then finally the icy table I truly love this one with the pillar and the big castle in the middle slide around the ice and Make sacrifices and you get two little monsters who get to join your team Like everybody gets a little a little magical bronze shaggath who fights for you By far, it's one of my favorite tables. Yeah, this table is super fun You actually can go farther when you run on the ice because you slide So like you get extra movement when you run on the ice You just kind of overshoot your journey You know Um And so all these are themed to a faction in a realm, right That's kind of the idea here. All right Uh, here's just some close-ups of some stuff like this is one of the silvanet table pieces It's just beautiful stuff like this like steve did an amazing job So just threw a couple pieces here of just awesome work just other angled shots of the tables we've already looked at All right, we're gonna do a quick recap. We're just gonna talk about kind of playing the games Not in any big way. I don't want to get like this isn't a full tournament recap We're gonna start with the two of us And just kind of talk through this for for fun and prizes Um, I think I might have your games in reverse order paul and uh and hooves So sorry if that's the case. Thanks. We're not gonna go too deep Uh I'll let you I'll actually this first game here. This is the night before the tournament Paul and hooves. I said uh, I said hey you guys want to get a game on you know get get a test So you can get the you know get the idea of how these tables play and they were like, well, we're both Nurgle, so we want to play on the Nurgle table. Okay It was a mistake We have chosen poorly uh, yeah This was a fun game Uh, I think hooves your air force stayed in the air and never got a chance to come down Yeah, yeah, this is uh, many of uh, complete nub mistakes in this one. Uh, yeah But that's why it's okay. Yeah, it's true. It's true. Also. Yeah, we we couldn't run across that like green ooze. So yes tom had uh Some lots of arrows coming down on my guys that Yes Yes, indeed Uh, then we got to day one and you guys grudged us. So we had the first game Then we we showed we showed down on this was a showdown at the o-town on on Frankly a table that I consider to be our table This is tommy nice table Uh, because We owned this All comers were defeated Kane Cannot be and his power cannot be stopped Uh, the year we both took daughters We just rode this table and actually had a rule that created in the pack the next year that you're not You don't get extra points if you don't play on safe table for the whole tournament because we just kept playing on this table I mean, we were both playing daughters of kane. So we wanted to play at the table of kane For we played for four of the five games the first game. We didn't get it We had to go play it and gear on somebody else got it But after that point we played in that table and I love how steve was like na na na, right? No more so this is a fun showdown, uh This is the game where hooves killed basically all my storm cast. I think that's the rat cast I mean, you know skig didn't die of course because come on now but You know, there was uh, this is a bloody bloody fight Uh, what do you think of this game hooves? Uh, you know, I I thought it was brutal. I mean as they almost always are but I mean nerkel is so Resilient and yeah when you get in a grind with them where it's just you're you're stuck in mealy for a while Hoof man, I pulled it out so many times, right? You just drag your opponents down with you. Um, there you go. It's uh it Invariably a lot of these games were almost split down the middle where like one side Person kind of deploys one side and the other person deploys on the other So you almost kind of get like a match up and um But yeah, I think we had a good time. Oh, yeah, it's a very fun game I got super I think was it this or was it the night before when I got super angry because I broke one of my fulminators That's the angriest I was okay. Yep. Yeah And I believe your dragon died to a disease point, which is That was a very hilarious moment. Yes. I was like all I need to do is not lose priority. Okay. We lost priority Okay, all I need to do is this okay that happened and then all you need to do was not roll a four up You rolled the four up. Okay. I just need a six up didn't roll that dead. It's like, oh Classic. Yes. No, this was a very fun game. Um, we ended up pulling it out in the end, but it was a Super interesting match up Paul you're on your side You were very locked in with tom there for a while around that around the the floating floating shrine there Yep, I uh I killed so much of tom's army from him passing off wounds from the hero that was on the shrine I It's like I don't think I did too many wounds like directly onto units. It was just like all bodyguards saves that were getting dropped on All of his units around there Well, no just one unit, but that's all that needed it like That that that was that unit's job The warden's got it. I know where gots got into them at the beginning See him in the middle That was a showdown or gots did eventually go down But then the flies came in and cleaned it up. It was it was a back and forth one man. It was a back and forth one That's for sure Yeah This is a great game. And this is such a fun board to play on so Good stuff Who doesn't love bonus attacks? There we go. Yeah, absolutely There's I think this is we can all see everybody see severeth up on this hill and or gots back here This is an important action shot because just a few moments later What would happen is severeth would use his cheaty move in the enemy shooting phase thing to come like over here Into this pocket Or something and then or gots would nail this long bomb charge And roll an 11 and come like I remember exactly how it works, but he got all the way around into severeth downtown Just downtown paul lands the charge and lifts severeth which Look, that's a great moment. When you kill severeth and melee There are a few things that feel better in this game right now than killing that idiot Or as tom calls him seferoth as I had to put up with for the entire tournament The one way to do these things just to make us mad. Yes Just like just like vince pronounces them robits robits. Sure necrons. All right, so You can see me Over on the other side of table here making a bad decision. That's what this is right now Vince's force decided to get stuck in with too many Too many units of nergal But fun game overall Okay, uh game two we jumped over to the desert sands uh and uh This was a really interesting game against a dual storm cast Army, so it was us against two storm cast players you know and We had this comical situation of this annihilator off happen Yeah, I'll talk about I remember this where basically The the the opponent had vigilars to by the way. I'm not vigilars. Sorry vanquishers vanquishers which got put to real good effect jumping into the hole in the middle in the sands Um, I don't know if they ever made an attack roll, but they were worth a million bucks jumping into that pit This is late into turn two Yeah, because I I had already lifted most of my opponents like a stargrake and all that off the table Yeah But we had this very funny showdown where I had set my lord imperitent out as kind of bait because I had to You have to pick something to die to the seven inch charge Of the grand hammer annihilators And so I set out the lord imperitent because it's going to make my annihilators have a longer drop So I knew it'd be a high value target for him to kill So he dropped he had a couple units. He had multiple units of annihilators, right? He had three And so, uh, he drops pastes my my lord impure retent And then I dropped on him charged and pasted his lord imperitent because he had left him open on the back and then So now neither of us have short drops anymore. That's it But my unit's already down and he had two more to drop So he had to put them out behind like nine inches off in the corner and then without my whole army just ran away from him You can't see his army because it's mostly over here on the corner of the table where he dropped into the corner And then the annihilators had to to run felt bad for him Um, but it was a very fun game. It was a very brutal game Uh, there you go. There's no little there you go. You can see them all back there. There they are They're just they're ready. They're coming And on the fourth card, they came over the the western dunes. Yeah, exactly Um, but it was a very fun, uh, very fun Uh, matchup Uh, our next game we played, uh, on the Uh, tower of lord. This is a super fun matchup. This was against a combo nergal slash skaven player um, this was He's been a guest on the show and I'm so angry. I can't remember his name. Andrew, I think Uh, Tolstit that sounds right. Let's hope I'm right if Andrew that's not your name and I'm wrong. I'm very sorry Uh, but there's a fun game because he had like a ton of classically painted painted plague monks. They were awesome Just collections of different sculpts from all throughout time Yeah, they were all like green rim bases. Yeah all goblin green rimmed bases an abomination But an but an amazing abomination And yeah, I just had plague monks for days Like a unit of 30 unit of 20 and then just tens everywhere and just oh man so much stuff And uh, this was a really fun showdown. Um, really like this again. This was, um Pretty interesting how it went. He also had like a corruptor and stuff like that There's a lot of interesting sort of back and forth the nergal opponent had a unit of 10 blikings 10 Blikings that tom spent most of the game attacking with everything he had Just every every arrow he could muster went into these blikings and at the end of the game I'm pretty sure they were still alive I mean like we had to call it but like they were getting ready to be charged But they were down to like four models. I think When Because he kept rallying them like I was shooting into them and he would rally him and put back He's like, oh, there go 12 wounds goes back on the unit, you know, yeah, just kept getting them back. Andrew yells. Okay. Thank you. Sorry, Andrew I apologize different Andrews But he was awesome dude super fun guy to play against Both these guys were great. In fact, everybody was great But 10 blikings was just unkillable by tom shooting is not the answer for 10 blikings. That does not work That is not incorrect That is a hammer trying to nail a screw into the wall. It's not happening like that is not working It was the tool that I had. Yeah, I understand Normally a good answer not here Uh, there's another shot of this particular game Um, this was uh, this was the the charge of the light brigade here of my storm catch You can see I'm just trying to encircle we went for the encirclement strategy on the rats Uh, but yeah, it was fun Uh, and the night we judged that we did our like the paint judging because it's just a couple shots of our Display board. This is the new display board that was behind me last week Um, so everybody could see it whatever there you go uh and dragons And tom stuff up here and some some rats There's my our gate to azir Um that we have that the lord impair retent is coming out of So fun stuff Game four the next day, uh, we lined up against an awesome army squigs and pigs Uh, it's exactly what it sounds like Which was an iron jaws player Uh Who was blood tufts with all the pickies and a mega boss on maw crusher tooled up And then a squig player with all the squiggies in the maws of jork And uh, this was a scary game because that bowling ball was just ready to drop on us at any point in time And I want everybody to pay attention to the to the iron jaws player over here to see this little tiny splash of orange and yellow That is the Lore seeker who bravely stood alone Against the entire iron jaws army Setting up three inches away from their line and turn one To shut off all of the mighty destroyers in the entire army So they couldn't do anything but charge him which they declined to do They just moved around him and then had the mega boss come up and stomp him to death So he could get a bonus wound and attack Uh, and then but then what happened is because my secret mention was ultimate sacrifice for one of my heroes Guide to one of their heroes. Yeah, sure. So that worked out perfectly. Um our our strategy here was rather straightforward Stole the iron jaws player and gum up his movement while our entire army then pivots around the clock left clockwise And kills the goblin player into non-existence and that's when that's more or less what we did the iron jaws player I don't think got to make an attack roll until round three. So I'm sorry. Yeah, he was we were two hours into that round Before he rolled an attack roll Other than smashing. No, that's not true because he got to kill the heroes and then my orders Yes, he had to smash my lower keeper and then you dropped your annihilators turn two which delayed more Yes So I guess he did get to make those attack rolls, but obviously those weren't the ones he wanted to be making Let me say it this way before he had to make an attack roll. He wanted to make yes. Yes Uh, so that was a very fun game. Um, here's another shot of it Just kind of later on pigs are trying to sneak out This game ended pretty wildly with everybody running toward that tower and just killing themselves for corn just like Just massive amounts of people throwing themselves against the bladed walls of the tower of corn So Good times Our final game was on the challenge stone table, which is one of my favorite tables And this was against a storm cast living cities combo Which again proved real tough. This was a very very very bloody game. Oh my god. It was very back and forth You can see He dropped in that first image. He dropped. It was a living cities storm cast matchup Yeah, where he had the full like alpha shooting and so you see him dropping off of my Like on my left hand side Like a hurricane and 20 shooters and then outriders wrote up the table. It was just You know, I planned on uh Taking the hit and uh, Severus letting Severus bite the bullet possibly. Um, but uh, that's not what happened Yep And thanks travis. I just know as you said talked about a display board. Thank you. That's very nice of you. Um I'm I'm excited about it. It was uh, it's I think it uses 10 different kits or something for all those different terrain pieces To make that mine. So it was fun Uh, this happened. This is my last shot of ours. This is one of the funniest roles in the game toward the end of the game Our opponent rolled his dice and he got it to balance Exactly on the quarter with the roll and and like I've seen Unbalanced die because they get stuck on terrain or stuff like that But it was stuck in a blade of grass effectively like on Foliage on flock it stopped Right here and just sat there Yes Uh, so that was very that was a very funny moment when that happened Uh, oh, yeah, I mean uh, I know there's uh failed a seven inch charge that did happen Yeah That was a pivotal moment those annihilators were sitting out there and just stranded and then they died Yeah, it was uh, it was rough. Yeah, here's the annihilators failing their seven inch charge these guys right here. Yes But this is a great game. This was like truly back and forth bloody just Killin stuff left and right very fun opponents. Really good time Oh, the all five games were great. That's that's the take home that should be here. All right Paul and matt. I want you guys to talk through some of your stuff So radio free hooves Uh Here's the first game from your perspective. You already kind of talked about it But anything else you want to talk about fighting us. Oh, no, I'm sorry. This isn't the first game. This is your last game I'm sorry. This is a tower of law. Yes. I think these are in reverse order. I don't know whatever Look We got to deal with it. I tried to put them in the order I put them in and the way you sent them to me So blame them for being out of order as you sent me the pictures This is on vlog's tower. So tell us about this game. Go ahead. Um So I'm trying to remember was uh, kenny lull that we were playing against um And I am Blanking on his uh teammates name um But they were playing in all mounted team list, um, was cities of sigmar and storm cast And it wasn't just like oh, here's all fulminators and dragons. It was here's some concussers and evocators and um Uh the guys on the uh The vanguard paladors. Yeah, the paladors like there was a sister's a thorn in there. It was everything Um, yeah Yeah, so they were very very very fast. Um, they were everywhere on the board on us. Um Thankfully the terrain kind of worked in our favor in this game. Um, kind of blocked some things out and uh Let us kind of take on like a couple of things at a time That happens on this table Yeah, yeah I think we tended to kind of push a little much a little too much down one side We kind of got bogged down there. It wasn't as much room to maneuver the other side was a little bit more of a Kind of you know close combat mire against a whole bunch of blight keens Yeah, i've got some action shots here as well with you guys moving out the board so people can see how this is happening. Yeah I noticed the uh, the the kitty caters or whatever this is or whatever these are behind you Something got behind you here. Oh They were everywhere because they're so fast and they come I am from I think a whole bunch of the units We're coming on from kind of ambush or whatever they they can do Uh in storm cast that that vlad's tower there, right every um I think the way we did it anyways that each person on the team during the hero phase can nominate a hero Uh, you roll four plus and you you basically do d6 Wounds that can't be saved to kind of a target of your choice Yep That that got a little because it gets a little spicy So like that that's the main terrain objective. So like whoever does the most damage of that is the the the team that scores those points We didn't have many heroes. We only had three heroes across both our lists Uh, so about halfway through the game. They were all dead So that that that that wasn't so good, but we did summon on a couple like little low wound There you go call call up sloveny, man. He's got you covered right there at seven points. He's ready to go That's what we did. They put them in the building at the back Nice and uh to to counter that they immediately rolled their four plus and did The maximum damage to one of our characters and killed them off so that uh Foiled our strategy and we we couldn't get that that main objective, but um really fun game lots going on again I'm super impressed by how much damage blight keens and stuff can take and uh, you know I guess for contacts I I took three units of five Paul took two units of two. So we we had we had the wounds and the resilience on the table It's really hard. I think there's something to deal with There wasn't too many people that did teams of the same faction. It was pretty most most teams were kind of one faction and then something else. So it was kind of diverse, but It was hard to deal with that double miracle Sure the next one up is bugman's by the way steve said you let kenny move this remove the statue So he could put his little flying guy up there. I see Yeah, yes Kenny moving statues see how it is That was actually uh, that wasn't kenny, but it was uh, it was his The other guy in the team uh, his friend Uh, and of course at that time, I think the griffin had one or two wounds left So we were trying to figure out how it could get back down And uh, yeah There you go All right, then we go to bugman's brewery. Uh, tell us about your show down here on bugman town here in bugman town Paul you want to take this one? Yeah, so we lined all of our puscoils and lords of afflictions up on one side. Yes, I can see that We were both in drowned men and uh so we got that eight inch pregame move and Uh, then we out dropped our opponents. They were playing storm cast and sylvaneth um, and they had like Disproportionately deployed their units over to the side where our puscoils were Um, and we just basically ran up the board took first turn made like all of the charges um I I think my high one of my highlights of this entire event was uh Turn one casting gifted disease and hitting 12 units with it Um They just had a big clump of units on their side and That and it was just like, okay. You you're all sick now um And those did uh Quite a bit of work Like those little bits of disease did a lot of work over the course of the game because they wouldn't go away Sure. Um But yeah, we basically we just moved up that side of the board pin them in and just ground it out for the rest of the game um It was an interesting one too because at the very end of that game, um The pub explodes Yeah, sure the main train objective is uh, how many models are killed Rather than wounds. So for us with multi wound Uh units that that posed a bit of a challenge So what we did is we kind of systematically tried to kill off anything that was one wound on their side And then the last round like refused to fight anything That had more than that because we didn't want to wound them so that they died in the explosion And then we summoned on a whole bunch of plague bearers hoping that they would die And they did It's great Nice nice Yeah, this is a super fun table as josh just said in the in the chat shout out to the zero rend result on the bugman's drunk table It is important to note that on this table you when you're near bugman's you can drink and that has lots of different results including like Uh bonuses to attacks or being too drunk to fight accurately and you go down to zero red No matter what your normal rend is so yeah, it can be fun. Yeah Uh zeech table next up. This is an exciting one I love the zeech table. This thing is a killer man These like this one will get you because you got a lot of stuff you're trying to navigate here on this one It is a weird twisting table of nonsensory That happens on the zeech table. So tell us about this matchup Uh, so they were both playing, uh, cities of sigmar one was living city and one was hammer hall Um, the hammer hall player had like a griffin and all demi griffs um and then the living city player was a bit of a Neapolitan mix A variety of different things um The zeech table i love you can't really see it too well in the picture, but there's like an eye of zeech Um terrain piece on the table and each turn that moves um And everything within six inches of it when it moves takes uh d three holding wounds Hmm and The movement of that thing is determined by a roll-off at the beginning of each turn and whichever player wins the roll-off gets to move it wherever they want um And it's interesting like you think that that's just like automatically really overpowered but like you once you start getting into combat Like it's hard to not dang your own units in the process. Sure. Sure. Absolutely Yeah, just because I'm being in the mix there's a couple tables that have this sort of thing Where something on the table like a piece of tray on the table will move and do wounds in a radius And it just becomes the situation that once you get in the mix. It's almost like You you know your your best result is killing more of their people. Hopefully than you do of yours, right? That's that's kind of what you can pick because it's just you're in you're in the scrum Yeah, and I uh Weird thing too, but that train piece is that it's uh one of those train pieces that you can't move across too So you can just kind of put it right in front of your opponent's army and they're like, what do we do now? Right? So we we we got some luck on that one They moved up all their demigriffs. Um, they didn't get a single charge off at least on my side We have to get the actual turn on them and charge in and so they're stuck in combat with With me for the rest of the game and that that didn't go so well for them Um Here with this shot, we can see you dropping this in front of their their whole army of demigriffs and such I think we in this shot We also see the true hero of your list hooves our friendly chaos spawn over here the most forward Troop just ready to ready to do work this bad boy right here MVP no doubt He was surprisingly annoying just to kind of throw off on the side so that people couldn't you know Uh move as easily With their units, but yeah Yeah, and the game on the uh bugman's table against the sylvaneth player the uh the chaos spawn Like shut down one of their trees Just stood in the middle. Sure. I was like, nope. You're not teleporting here That's awesome. Yeah, uh next up we had your your game on the ogre challenge stone table So we we played on this one as well Uh, tell us about this one I'm gonna I'm gonna jump to the action shot here of you guys in in mid fight Uh, clearly you're playing scaven partially because I can see the knoll hole is always being an easy dead giveaway On uh on on on a scaven player. So tell us about this one Uh was scaven and beast of chaos that we're playing against um The main objective on this table is basically to do wounds near the challenge stone And they're getting fights around. Yeah Yeah, there's a radius around it. Uh that grows every turn Um that you want to be doing your wounds in um, so we basically just Jumped into the middle like right around that thing. Um, and just like hugged the stone And made sure all the combat was happening there Um Yeah, we should say the stone itself is impassable so you can't like get up on it or go around it or Or something like that so it ends up you don't actually have a full scrum in the middle ends up being this fight in a donut Like around the thing is usually what happens. Yeah Yeah, the the the stone also increases uh, everyone's attacks by one as well So it's a pretty brutal mealy one Uh, the beastman player really did a heavy ambush and so we were just completely surrounded on all sides Uh Who's uh, who's a crazy fight, but you know blight keens versus A bunch of scaven, uh You know, yeah, my money's on the blight keens. That is a terrible matchup for rats. Oh my god Yeah, yeah, I charged uh or guts into a unit of uh 40 clan rats and just picked up half of them in one round of combat sure sure Yep, sounds about right. Yeah Uh Yeah, this this is such a fun table. We should also state that these fires are not nothing They're real those fires do like fires would they burn you a lot? They're real herty fire makes makes bad pain Uh, you don't stand near the fires. So Okay, uh, here's another action shot. I'm just what's going on there You guys are really hanging out near the fires a lot I've seen a lot of units near these fires and these action shots I'm like you got I there was a six inch bubble around that fire that I did not cross No way. I'm getting near those things. I don't have the units Um, but when you dropped because if you dropped at the end of the sure. Yeah, yeah Like yes, but I mean like in general we didn't get near the fires with our normal movement, right? Um, but I didn't have a lot of wounds storm cast being fairly elite Whereas this is the scaven slash beast slash and urgal matchup. It's like yeah, whatever fine. Take a couple wounds Who cares? We love live being lit on fire. Yay So Uh, and then here's sort of the matchup Uh, we get the oh good. You had a picture of this of this action shot of all that's left I forgot. I think it's the only picture I kept of our game just to end on this is actually your game one So I definitely did a reverse order. Sorry um Of you still having some flies left and me having being down to like two fulminators just All of my forces are in ruin Well, I mean like I I had the secret objective that my character had to be killed by monster Which is why I tried to drop the flies and and hopefully get in contact with you But then you ignored them the rest of the game and ran off somewhere else I Yeah, I I tried to kill your character many times not just with monsters. That's true. That's true That little idiot wouldn't die So I don't know what to tell you it's your own fault for making him so tough Uh, so at any rate there you go. That's the full thing It's a super fun event if you're anywhere where you can get to it I would recommend people check it out But I hope it's inspiring and just kind of showing the type of stuff we talked about right because there's different objectives You're trying to control that are around the table and he's like rail tokens There's different things you're trying to do Near the terrain pieces you have like your secret mission as tom mentioned very You know trying to get a character killed or trying to kill something with a hero Or trying to be on a certain area of the table in a certain round or that kind of thing Like there's a lot of little different things going on So we didn't let's you know to go back to the original point. You didn't really miss stuff like battle tactics or things like that, right? So there you go uh At any rate Paul hooves was great seeing this weekend. It was great playing where I'm against you And thanks for coming on the show both of you. This is a fun discussion Yeah I'm glad to be here for my 13 and a half appearance All right. Well, you know what we'll upgrade it. You got the full 14. There you go Yeah, it's of course that last time paul and I were on this together. It was back in war games. Oh gosh. Yes Yeah, I think that was that might have been our The first appearance on your channel for the both of us. It was yeah There you go. How about that boy? There you go. That was a fun concept. It just never really never really took off But you know, it's tough to do those kinds of things digitally, right? If we could we maybe there's maybe there's a live format on the other side of this that we could do for special events At any rate Tom anything final you want to say? No, it was fun Had a great time. Thank you, steve. Thank you to bell. Thank you to All of that that crew that works with steve including his sons who helped a great deal Uh, so It was super fun. Thank you to all of our opponents great games all around great time. It's always a fantastic event Get out there go to some turnies find something in your area get involved. It's super fun It's not just whack players trying to kill you with hard lists. You could have a good time This event or other events, uh, you know get involved in the community I've built so many friendships and met so many cool people doing these events I wouldn't trade that for anything So thank you both paul hooves for coming on the show great time as always Thank you all out there for watching. We really appreciate it. Don't forget to hit like Subscribe and hit those other buttons that are all important do all the things that you do with youtube stuff It helps other people find the show and it's the easiest thing and it's totally free Who doesn't love free and fun, right? That's what we're all here for So thank you all for watching. We very much appreciate it and as always