 now that we are we're live now. Welcome to the Metal Voice today on the show, a very special guest on a very sensitive topic that's intrigued the world for man, maybe a decade and a half, right? It's director David Bellino, America's the producer and director of America's Deadliest Rock concert, The Guest List, which premiered on for February 20th on the Reels Channel, which is available in Canada and of course in the US. The Guest List is partially based on the book Killer Show, The Station, Nightclub Fire, America's Deadliest Rock concert written by John Barry Lick. Thank you for joining us, John. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. David, sorry. David, that's okay. John's not here. He could have been John's not here. He does do some with me. You know, I was traveling throughout New England at that actually that week I think I was in Massachusetts and when I heard about it the following day, my first reaction was that could have been me. You know, I tend to see it go straight to the front of the stage and you know, if I'm traveling, I like to see which bands are playing in the neighborhood and that was my first reaction. It's like, wow, this could have been any one of us. So I think that comes home throughout the documentary. Yeah, that's a very common response that I get. Everybody puts themselves, he's talking to Eddie Trunk and everybody in the US on this and everybody was like, you know what, these are the clubs that I go to and that's me and that's me in the front row and yeah, it hits home for a lot of people that way. Sorry. February 23, 2003. I'm just looking at the timing and I'm just why is this being released now? You know, there was a big wide news cycle of course like anything else at the time and we went all over the place as you can imagine but the news cycles are pretty narrow, even with a tragedy this big. It was a very small town in a very small state and it was the genre of music that as you know, you know, can be, I don't want to say controversial but it's got it's, you know, niches and people like us who love to go to these shows sometimes like so I'm not sure how much we're looked at. You know, D Snyder in the film obviously said, hey, you know, this was you too, it might have been a different story. So I think it didn't take long for it to sort of dissipate. You know, there was a seven year aftermath in terms of legal, criminal, civil. There's an aftermath that never ends when it comes to people and the human tragedy and what today, you know, the people that you see in the film that you met when you watched it, they live with us every day. You know, they wake up with us every day. So, you know, I moved back to Rhode Island, just to raise my girls they were one and three years old at the time in 2002 I was in Los Angeles prior in the music video industry and film industry. And I woke up that morning and I think a lot of people in our world remember where they were, you know, when they saw the news that morning and I said to myself, you know, I don't know how it's going to come together I work with these bands. And I'm from Rhode Island but I know someday I need to tell the story I just I feel like I'm the one for some reason that is going to tell the story. You know, for some reason years and years went by, I could see maybe the first seven or eight years, because it was so it was in the courts and there was a lot of legal muck going on. But then it just I think it just sort of faded away and people's memories there's always been this online, you know, controversy of who did it and all these things that I'm sure we'll get into a little bit. But it's a really good question I don't know why no one's tackled it and didn't. And I think the answer to your question in terms of timing is just that for me when I went back in my mind saying you know what it's the right time. It just happened to be the right time for me. I was in between projects and I'm like you know what if I don't do this now. It's not going to happen. I didn't realize it was going to take, you know, six, seven years. The journey of making this film is a story unto itself was very complicated to get to this point. So I guess when you add all that up, you know the legal aftermath and just sort of that dead time with society and culture and not caring about, you know, 80s rock anymore in that little period and then all of a sudden my time that I had to be able to bring this to life again. Been almost 20 years I know it sounds crazy and I do get that question a lot but that's the best, you know, explanation I have for it. I think for people who didn't grow up during this time. What is and let's just start off basic here. What is the premise of this movie just for the people who have never don't know about it. Right because there are people out there who don't know about it, who didn't grow up in that era who didn't hear the news reports there was no Twitter and there was no YouTube back then. It wasn't. It wasn't. Give us the premise of this movie. And it's funny that you mentioned that too is because one year after is when Twitter and, you know, cameras on cell phones and you got to remember this happened just before that so it was on a cold winter night in New England which is typical in February. 460 people jammed into a small rundown roadhouse as you typically would have it in a town called West Warwick Rhode Island a very small town a very small state to see great white, you know, one of their favorite, you know, many bands on the list of nostalgia and the hit songs that we all love from the 80s. And they got on stage. They for whatever reason, which is again something that we could discuss but they lit off a pyrotechnics display at the beginning of their show, very first show. It caught the sides of flammable foam acoustic foam and the place went up in flames and, of course, people didn't realize that at the time they thought there was it was part of the show. But if you didn't make it out in 90 seconds, you weren't making it out. And it's a very it happened very fast, but it's essentially the story of the people who suffered greatly over the years, you know, from that night and how fate and how all these events occurred. And to really understand, you know, how we can never have something like this should never happen again, how we can help prevent it from ever happening again. And just giving attention to the people who went through this and still go through it today. So I think in general you could look at it as a tragedy. In Rock, it is America's deadliest rock concert. It still is and it probably always will be. And you know, I met people, I've gone to concerts in Rhode Island and it was a Y&T concert. I met people from there. And I remember them saying, you know, I was supposed to go that night. I got tired weekday. I got tired after work and I decided not to go. And you can see in your film the serendipity of events, you know, like the lady that just missed her turn off and said to herself, this is not meant to be. You know, it's just, that's what I took away from the film is just, you know, life, that's life, right? I mean, certain events lead you in a certain direction. And that's funny that you mentioned that because fates are a deputy, these things. And you can hear one of our characters, Paul and McLaughlin say, you know, after this happened, I don't believe in coincidence anymore. It just, it can't be. And the story of her brother and his young beautiful wife, you know, happened to be, I mean, the tattoo that she was getting him for his birthday, his birthday was on the 13th of February. The young beautiful couple that were married one year and they were so excited to get this tattoo. And Scott Green, who's the tattoo artist, you know, was booked. He just happened to be booked. And let's just push it to next week on the 20th. And it's exactly what you're saying. So this couple. And then Jack Russell happens to be there that day that he gets. Jack just felt he needed a tattoo that night of the show. I mean, literally just a few hours before they happen to be all there together that night. And oh my God, Jack Russell is in the tattoo shop. So, you know, these kind of things you can't make up. You know, you can't write this stuff. And again, the tattoo owner's wife, Sandy Arina, who you see in the film dressed in red. She was, she should have been there too. You know, she would have been one of the people we're talking about. But like you said, she just took a wrong turn and just said, Ah, you know what? And Scott called her from the lobby that night and said, Ah, I think I'll just stay home. That's like the 9-11, right? The stories of 9-11 where you know what? I feel, I don't feel well today. I'm not going to go to work. And that's where the tragedy happened, right? It's just, you know, when your time comes, you know, that that's what it comes down to, right? Right. And the two, you know, and I'm sure you can relate to this, but the story of Jimmy and Mike, the two young college kids were so excited to get an interview with Jack. That's what we do on a weekly basis, exactly. Well, you know, at 19 years old, you know, think about what a big deal it is, you know, he talks to Dan Beaker, the tour manager, and oh, wow, we're going to head down and we're going to talk to Jack on the tour bus. They're so excited. And, you know, you see what happens a few hours later, you know, one of them gets out and one of them doesn't, which is another really hard thing to believe how you can be at the front of the stage together. And one gets out and one does it. And, and John Derrlich at the end of the film says it very well is it's all chance at where you were standing and which direction you just happened to decide to go. One step the wrong way is death. One step the right way is, is a window and, you know, Ty Langley as well, right? The rest of the band went this way and he went that way. And unfortunately he perished. Ty Langley, correct. And from what I understand, he was going back to get his guitar as a possibility from some of the things I read. But yeah, yeah, just, just decisions, you know, quick choices. And I don't think he can base these choices on anything. I'm sure that you've, you know, you've listened to the story of Joe Kennan, the burn survivor, and it's a heartbreaking but it's a very inspirational story. And what he's decided to do with his life. Same thing. You know, someone stepped on his shoe and that was it, you know, you know, hats off to you because I think, and we need Alan watch a lot of music documentaries and we go through a lot. This is very well done. And because you're approaching it from every angle, and you know, you put it in an hour and a half. It's not easy to do, right? You're always wondering as an editor, am I going to put this scene or am I going to put that scene? And not only that, but it's done tastefully because a lot of production companies and directors would make this more sensational, right? You didn't, you didn't go for the sensational angle. You went for the historic, you know, angle from every, and everybody was fair game when it came to the blame game, right? It was all presented the way it should have been presented. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate you saying that. And, you know, I think, I think the human brain can fill in the things that we don't need to see, right? Yes, yes. You know, and when I approached this film, you know, I wound up just trying to put myself into every one of those shoes as a persona, right? So, what is it like to be Mike who escaped? What is it like to be Jimmy who didn't? What is it like to be Joe? And then, taking that one step further, Paula and Jay, you know, this couple that I've become very close to, and just understanding what they've gone through, whether or not it's injustice is a topic for another day, but they, what they felt as injustice, again, it's a subjective thing. And you can see Jay, who's not only a firefighter for 30 years, but imagine being the first responder in going to the site and having two family members that you're trying to find there at the same time. I mean, you know, these things, you don't get rid of that. So I thought it was very important to focus on that. And, and, you know, he said some things that are tough to hear and he's very authentic and very real. But you know what, you know, that's what documentaries are all about. It is funny because it's on the border of being a music doc, and not so much, right, really more of a human story, but I tried to blend it so that music fans could stay engaged without being great way behind the music, you know, but also enough so that people who had no idea of 80s rock, great way, what have you, would also be engaged because of the themes, you know, like you're saying the human themes that run through this. So, I mean, again, what I loved about the movie and Jimmy alluded to it as well is that you let people make up their own minds, kind of presenting the facts, you come to your own conclusion. Grief, they all went through the grief process, you know, it's sad. How can we prevent this happening again? Then it's the blame game. So I just wanted to, you know, we can get into a few specific examples here. I mean, you know, Dee Snyder, like you mentioned it earlier as well, it's like, okay, what did judicial system care more if it wasn't a heavy metal concert with working class people. So, again, you leave people come to their own conclusions, but I like to know your feeling on that. Yeah. So you hit a good point because that was very intentional throughout is to make sure that whether it's Jack Russell, who people have very strong feelings about whether it's 80s music, whether it's the justice system, whether it's, you know, the blame or the club owner, the fire marshal, you know, all these things. I think the important thing to do was to let you as a viewer decide now I can only do so much in 88 minutes if you read the book killer show. And I think they make a really good package together, right? Because if you see the doc, we can only touch on things. If you decide as a viewer, you want to go deeper into the research. I know many people have hit Google. I want to read the book now, just so you know, I want the details. Yeah. Right, exactly. But going back to your question, I think specifically on the genre of music, you know, Eddie trunk puts it really well too, is I think at that time. Yeah, I think there was a bias and prejudice I think since then, you know, with the festivals now and sort of the resurgence of a lot of the bands. And that's pretty cool. But you know, you know that up and down curve, right? You know, the 80s. And then I touched on what happened with the 90s, what happened into 2000. Very well done. If I, you know, if I had a limited series, which I was initially planning on, which we still might get to is I would have spent the entire episode taking people down. And the reason why I think it's important to go down that music hole for an episode is because, you know, you'll begin to feel why it was so important for these people to be in that club. People say why are you in this shit club, you know, this little, and it's because of something is very hard to describe. It's what these what this music and what these songs mean to people there was something about that genre and something about that culture that we all love. So, you know, just trying to address your original question. Yeah, I think there was a bias at that time, which Dee explains really well, maybe not so much now, but certainly. And I should also mention this, it's important, you know, the guys who did participate in this movie and there is Dee Snyder. There's Michael Sweet, who's a friend of ours, there's Don Dawkins, there's Lita Ford. That's just to name a few of them and they all put in some really good and Eddie Trunk, like you mentioned. And of course, Jack Russell is there. They all put in their points of view, which were so valid throughout the, you know, what they had to say, especially Dee, you really made some, and it's probably to Alan's point, you know, it could have been anyone, it could have been any band. Absolutely. Because me and Alan, and I'm sure yourself too, we've been in those gigs, right? We were there and it could have been us. Yes. Absolutely. And, you know, I think it was very important. The intent of bringing the music, you know, voices in there was because of a longer version, because we, like I said, the intent originally was that we're going to take you behind the scenes of festivals today. We're going to take you back to the 80s. We're going to dive in and throw the relevance of Dee and Don Dawkins and Michael Sweet, where the intention was to expand that. But because we were so caught on time, I mean, the film is really about, like you said, the premise of what happened. We couldn't get too deep into that, because again, and we pushed people away who weren't music fans. So many of our viewers are people that are, I don't want to say true crime, but they want human stories and they may not be metal fans. So the more we got into that. But then again, on the opposite side, we didn't want to push those fans away because that was the whole point of the film. Well balanced. Very well balanced. There was the tragedy in Cincinnati at 79 at the Who concert. And like you said, this is unfortunately one of the deadliest concerts of 100 people that passed away, plus another 200 that were injured. And they made changes following that festival seating in Cincinnati. My question to you, do you think that changes have been made due to this tragedy? Well, they absolutely were. But you wonder how much is politics, you know, of course, I mean, what are they going to do right after this happens? You know, I mean, people's head would be on a platter if they didn't start changing things. So grandfathered in buildings that didn't have to have sprinklers like the station inspection codes and things like that. However, from what I understand from some people in the film and some of the parents who spent a long time who lost their children after trying to change some of these laws, it appears to me that a lot of it, some of it has fallen back into, and that's what happens, right? It was just like anything else is, is you get lackadaisical again. And going back to your original question, which kind of ties around in terms of why now it is kind of interesting that when things get really lackadaisical, that's when things happen again. Right. So it's, I think it's good for that reason is it at least it starts a dialogue and again. And I mean, the reason why these people wanted to be in this film and do it now. It too soon is too soon. Like, you know, they're just, they just don't want to talk and they're not going to but enough time has passed that they feel that, you know, I don't want my loved ones to ever be forgotten. You know, and so Mike and Sandy and Jimmy Gahan and Scott Green and the people that you meet in this film. The motivation of why they came to me to be in the movie as well was just so that I don't think you ever would have known whom Mike and Sandy who Gage and were except now you do. Right. And that's the point is, let's not forget them and hopefully learn some lessons along the way. David, go ahead. I'm sorry. David, I wanted to like, put out the characters and the blame game and just talk about it very high level. People could watch the movie for the more details. Sure. Yeah, so and I want Alan's opinion on this too. So now I'll, I'll spell out the characters and you tell me the the I'm trying to phrase this properly. What their commitment is, we have the fire inspector who, who everybody knows like every city has their own fire inspector or the chief or whatever he is. There's a certain code that every sort of nightclub restaurant or any sort of private business republic has to adhere to right. Then you have the band and everybody to understand this was not great white as we know it. This was a solo band just build as great white, which was Jack Russell that night. Then you have the tour manager who runs the corporation will call it of the band. Then we have the pyro guys. And we found out they weren't licensed, but we have the pyro guys and then we have the club owners. And they're, um, how do I say this and they're sort of maybe I call it greed perhaps that they wanted to further increase the capacity of the club by sacrificing some of the safety protocols. Now, when you have all these characters after you analyzing tons and sorry I'm long winded here. Okay. But after analyzing all this information, what have you concluded where the blame actually really lies? Well, I think that's the thing is it's, it's not just one thing, you know, it wouldn't have happened with just one of those pieces pulled out. That's the problem is it's very scary when you look at all the things that had to happen. All the things that had to go wrong, all the mistakes that were made, or all the ego or the greed or whatever motivations behind those mistakes, but I'll touch on them again very, very quickly. You have a venue. A lot of times, they're in the business of making money. Nobody intentionally plans to hurt anybody. And I think that was clear that, you know, these are people that pay to come in the club. Where corners cut, what was it mismanaged? I mean, those are, we leave that for debate. So you have the club owners, Michael and Jeffrey Dadarian. And the day they were two of the three that were indicted criminally only, and didn't serve a lot of time. But again, we explained that in the movie is it has to do with intent. The, the, the sentencing has to do with criminal intent. You know, and so Dan Beakley, who was the tour manager of the band, he physically lit the pyro. If you're thinking, okay, you hear Jay McLaughlin say this, how can somebody not have fire extinguishers? How could somebody light up pyro, not have fire extinguishers? Didn't you see the phone? You know, so is Dan Beakley a bad guy? I don't think so. And I think many people on Rhode Island felt, you know, he was very remorseful. And many people in Rhode Island also felt that, you know, he took blame where potentially, you know, maybe he shouldn't have in some cases, but, but those are the three. So we're going to talk about five. The three are Michael and Jeffrey Dadarian and Dan Beakley. Those were the three who were indicted criminally, who served some amount of time. So, you know, the co-boner one, co-boner two brothers, and the tour manager of Great White, which physically lit the pyro. The controversial to the other, you know, two out of the five is Jack Russell and the fire marshal. And they were not indicted. And the belief is that there is an immunity statute in Rhode Island, which essentially creates an immunity for a fire marshal unless it was malice. Again, I don't think there was any intent that, again, is a controversial subject of why the fire marshal was not indicted. Likely it was because of that as a possibility. So, you know, Russell, you know, again, did he physically light the pyro and nobody was in charge. So as John states in his book, you know, what about the person in charge, you know, we're blaming the person who actually lit, but you work for someone in charge. So that was the controversy around Jack, why he was not indicted. Again, criminally, nobody knows. Everyone from a civil perspective when it comes to the lawsuits and so forth. And that was discussed in the film as well. So, so those are the five that I think if you take anyone out of there, think about it, right. The fire inspector says no, you know, you're not going to put this foam on the wall, wouldn't happen. The brothers didn't, you know, there wasn't overcrowding, for instance, if there was overcrowding. If using the foam on the walls wouldn't have happened. Jack, if Jack, you know, if great white was not doing pyro shows. It wouldn't have happened if Dan Beekley was looking for extinguishers or did not hook up that night because he looked around and goes, Oh, you know what, this probably isn't a venue that we should light this up. It wouldn't have happened. So, you know, I think it, I think the blame goes around. And now how you penalize or how you, you know, whether it's criminal sentencing or civil. Again, it wasn't my job to lay out what I think or believe is my job to try to give the viewer a sense of, you know, and again, there's more to it. So if you want to dig further, whether it's the book or some other source, we hopefully we gave you enough information that you could go dig more. Emotions are still running high. That's clearly displayed in the film. What's the community today? How does the community feel overall today? You know, it'll never go away. And as you see some of the journalists and the news reporters who were there that night were affected greatly just having to cover that story. And, and he states very well, Bob Farrell, one of the cameraman who was on scene, you know, it's a very, very sensitive subject in Rhode Island, probably has to do with being a small town, a small community, very close knit. Everybody knows each other. It's that sort of thing. I don't know if you picked up on it in the film, but the four seasons New England is set in this area of the United States that the seasons, you know, summer to fall to winter to spring is a big thing. You know, it's a lot of reason why people come here and they they love it and it attaches to them. And so there's a visual theme that runs through the film of those seasons as they change. And the reason why we did that is because that's what I've witnessed an experience that affect these people the most when, when the fall begins to change the snow in the winter, it triggers them. Like, this is, we're coming on February again. And, and, and honestly, the community like, I don't want to say shuts down, but, you know, February is a very dark month here, you know. Yeah, regardless of the tragedy or not. Right. And, and, and then when spring comes, it's like this glimmer of hope, right, like we're getting out of this winter and the, you know, the, the buds and the flowers begin to form and it's kind of like, wow, you know, I don't need to think about this maybe for another year, you know, and that, not quite that black and white, but that's why that's to me what the community represents, you know, being in New England. And so we talked about Jack Russ and I remember at the time people defending him. I think he's a, you know, he became a broken man because of this. But, you know, a lot of people seem as either the devil, or also a victim because, you know, like the intent was never obviously never there. You know, how were you able to approach Jack and get him to be so candid on on on your documentary. That was a critical piece and when I talked to people, they asked me, you know, how did this all come together and I told them it pretty much fell apart, you know, a half a dozen times six times seven times, and it came back together. One of the critical pieces it took a lot of components that all had to fall into place. John is a lawyer agreeing with his book and understanding that I'm coming from the music angle, making sure I need Jack Russell story. And I was like, you know, what are you talking about, you know, in the families as well, just just to understand that. So it was very difficult to pull the pieces that I wanted together to make the film happen. One of those pieces was Jack Russell, it was probably one of the most critical pieces and it was a difficult thing to make some people understand and some didn't some do not want to participate because Jack story was going to be in the film. It was called the guest list and the concept and some of the premise revolves around this idea like you were mentioning earlier about, you know, just the idea of being on a guest list, whether it's through a tattoo parlor or a meeting at a hotel lobby. How could you not have the person who created the guest list in a film called the guest list so it was way more than just putting a microphone someone's face for, you know, an hour. It was something with Jack and his life for a few years. I mean, the only way to get what you saw on camera was to create a trust and really have him understand that I don't think there'll be another opportunity. If he was on your show and you asked him about the fire, you see how he reacts you've seen interviews before. How can you, how can you can't just answer somebody there is no simple answer. The only way to do it is documentary style where you feel like you're living with Jack through his ups and downs and his addictions and his happiness and his wife. It's the only way we could do it. And that's goes back to one of the original questions you had is it took a very long time to, you know, to produce this film because of that reason, and not just Jack, but the families to trust access, feeling comfortable to tell the story and that that I think comes through that's what I was proud of is just the realness and the authenticity that everybody has. These are not news interviews. These are, you know, this is the real deal, including Jack. You know, as a viewer now, as I watched it, I think the outcome and I know this might bother people but I think the outcome worked out the way it should have worked out. You know, where the owners, you know, had the conviction, maybe the conviction or the sentence should have been more I don't know that's not for me to decide. But at the end of the day. It is the club that it doesn't matter what Jack Russell wants to do pyro or not. It is up to them to, if it was in the contract and there was no pyro loud, or it had to be by a licensed pyro person right. It is the club at the end of the day who has to deal with that consequence. At least that's how I see it, you know, it's a, it's a fair point. I mean, you know, I agree with you to some extent, because yes, that that's your boundary between safety. Let me just add this and you could answer it. I have a fishing, a boat license, right. And without that boat license, I can't drive a boat in Montreal. Like, if I was to go to a boat club and say, oh, I'd like to rent a boat and they didn't look at my credentials, or they kind of sidestepped it, then it would be on them, not me, because they are the gatekeepers of that of the safety, right. And if they didn't have fire extinguishers on the boat, again, it's on them. You know, if the boat wasn't built as it should be with the right safety precautions, then it's on them. Now, that's how I looked at it and sorry to cut you off. Go ahead. No, I mean, you're right. And this is why the story I think in general has always been so intriguing, because everyone has their points of view and they're very strong, and they see different things. And, and I agree. I mean, if that's your business, and this is the business you run. This is the way you should run your, you know, from the safety aspect, but I guess John points out something that always resonates with me in the film in his book, is that there was only one individual that was actually paid. And it was his job to make sure that the people in that building are safe. So the club owners, I agree with what you're saying. And you would think that the responsibility but you're putting a lot of trust in people that I promote. The fire marshal I would agree to the fire marshal. Yes, yes. You know, so and again, it's not pointing or any one individual but john does bring up a really good point and again, whether I agree or not, it's not a point but out of all these people were talking about the this is someone's job. Like you're saying, yes, who it is that needs to look at the credential, make sure I get paid to do I get paid to keep you safe. Right. In the book, does it ever mention that there was a fire marshal report of any sort saying that this is not up to code. So that's quite quite covered a lot in the book because of the past inspections he, it was inspected for three years prior that and the foam apparently was on the walls for three years. So the biggest question that people have is, why was that never cited if the flammable foam was on the wall for three years and, you know, so then I amend my statement and include the fire marshal as well. Again, it's again, I don't know I didn't know I don't have that information right so. You can play the blame game all day long right. It is what it is. But you know, you go back to the serendipity of the thing. They wanted to make sure they bought the what they changed to the station they bought this club went around to see the neighbors and by pure comedy of errors like you said, the guy in the backyard it was close to the guy who says, Hey, I can get I'm a salesman for this phone that will dead into sound like what are the chances that the one guy you're going to go see to make sure that you're going to please the neighborhood when it comes to sound and bars and clubs and bands happens to be a salesman for this phone that they decided to use. Right. And then you ask yourself, Okay, well, you know, is this the right phone did anyone care it's cheap phone. I mean, I don't think everyone anyone ever thought that Oh, okay, this is flammable we're going to put it up anyway. You know, it's very difficult and that's why I think the film that that was my intent is, you know, just like you're saying let's watch the scenes read the book and then you can make up your own mind and people can argue all day long. I think that's the point of a doc like this is it opening up the dialogue is just, it's really important. It's not the point blame what's done is done but at the same time, you know, maybe, maybe this never happens again right. I think that's what's the most important I mean that week after I remember Lizzie the interview Lizzie board and like you did with Don docking to get past perspective and leader for and he named five or six clubs that are tender boxes throughout the United States that he was able to grab them out from the end of his fingertips so they knew which ones and again Jimmy and I go around like you said those two fellows for the power hours that can remind us of me and Jimmy. We go around we go to different venues and I know there's one right here in the city here that if anything happened upstairs, we would never get out of the basement where we do a lot of our interviews. You know, I was hoping things would change like you said there was all kinds of talking at the time but I look at it 20 years later and I'm not seeing too many changes, unfortunately. I agree with you and you know when he says it could have been any of us of course he's referring to bands like we as bands, you know, I think it's fun and we can light stuff off or have fun and you know, and when he says that you can see it's that look on his face as you're right it could have been any of us I think that it could have been like you're saying any of us and the club owner could have gotten on to the dock and said the same thing and so it's like Russian roulette right it will happen and it just in this case because of all these things happened here and this is the story that everyone talks about but sure there could be another one and it likely will be and some maybe not as you know fatal or what have you but maybe this movie might save lives and I think that's important you know it's important that everybody knows about it it for the promoters for the bands for the tour managers for the club owners for the the the inspectors. Yeah, you know, it's a very important movie that I'm happy that you really made it has it affected you psychologically watching hours and hours of people. Yeah, I'm sort of in need of help. Yeah, it's not so much being in the editing well I shouldn't say that the answer is yes, of course I mean it changed my life that the story telling process and the journey that I took as a filmmaker just explaining you know the trust that had to be built and how much time it took I mean I had to, you know, but I'm not sure it was so much watching in the editorial post it was the process of getting to know people. I remember sitting down at dinner we met with Joe, Ken and his wife, Carrie, you know for the first time, and it was shocking, you know, and after a while it just sort of like today Joe and I are you know we just I don't even I don't even see his physical, you know, difference and because I think it's just a matter of time, but initially all the stuff. Yeah, I mean, so I don't think it affected me in a bad way I think it affected me in a great way I think in a sense where you know I truly do feel that doc everybody you see in the doc and the crew became a family in a sense and that happens a lot on films but especially this one because it's so intimate and it took so much time to develop. I mean, you know the tightrope that I, you know that we walked between the jack side and the other side. But I felt I had to stick to my ground. I guess an important thing I do want to mention too is that I think if the Jack Russell thread and the guest list thread and the music thread and that whole thing, the controversy of the band and that was removed from the film and it became a story about a small town who had a tragedy and the small group of people who it's painful and it would be good but it's not going to be what it is now it's not going to be the guest list and that's it what I had to convince some of the people who were very concerned about the whole Jack Russell thread being in the film is I put it in very simple terms. You want your story of your loved ones and your story to get out to more than 10,000 people in Rhode Island if you wanted to get out to a million national audience, this is what we have to do. And I know it almost seems like, you know, I know they didn't want to do that but now I think they understand why is because the attention that it's getting. So, you know Mike and Jimmy now, you know Sandy and you know Scott and you know Mike and Sandy, you wouldn't if it wasn't at this level and the choice of creating that not controversy intentionally but making sure that they understood that Jack Russell's story thread is a critical part of the film, not to give him a platform to apologize not for any other reason other than it makes a well rounded film that makes you think. On the Jack Russell point, you know, I want to tell all the victims that sometimes the best the best sentence is to be living and living with the knowing that you've killed 100 people. Sometimes, I mean, you'd be better off dead, not living that way I mean living with that torture day in and day out is not you know that is a sentence, you know, you know, every day of your life, you know, and I'm not minimizing it and anyway, you know, I'm sure some days Jack is like, wish he wasn't around to go through that right. Well, that's a really good point and that was probably one of the things in my mind remember when I was talking about what what is it like to be Mike and Jimmy in the club what is it like to be Joe in the club. What is it like to be Jack Russell. And so one of the first things that came to my mind and coming up with the concept and the premise around this is, is that how do you live with that. You know, and you see in the film, you'll see Scotty Dunbar who is a survivor who feels very differently about Jack and he forgives and he is up on stage and he embraces him and he's got past a certain level and then you'll see Vicki, Megan who you know has very strong words about Jack but again for good reason and it's their individual choice of, you know, but I think it was important to show those views, just to give people, but an example or you know, the symbol of what a lot of the world feels and it to be him I think is difficult and I think I did want to show that as a filmmaker not just as a platform. And just to add to that I mean, there's there's forgiveness for those that are culpable there's yourself forgiveness. I think Vicki mentions about survivor guilt in the film as well. So you spoke about the community. Is there a sense of forgiveness is do you think over it might take more time but do you think that to be a sense of forgiveness for everybody all around. It's a very individual thing. And one thing I have learned is, you know, that point specifically is that the people who have that, you know, I don't want to call it anger where I mean they have the right to feel that way. I mean, you know, it's like, and the people who forgive and forgive is the right word to because when I talked to Joe, you know, you know, and again I could only get into these vignettes so much in the 88 minutes but Joe goes on to say a lot more things about this is not forgiveness. You know, this is accepted. He accepted the way he looked he accepted his new life. He had a baby he chose to you know, and even Joe, you know, without putting words in his mouth. So I think the term forgiveness is very strong. I'm not sure that exists at all, to be honest with you. I think acceptance and getting over the anger, you know, getting over that that hatred inside and some of the people in the film you'll see have it, you know. And I think that was also a balance that I had to strike is that some people feel, you know, teetering on that word forgiveness or acceptance, and other people I don't think will ever and I think when you mentioned time will time heal everything. I think for many, I won't. You've done a great job and you know preserving the memory of the people who passed away. You know it touched me the movie and you know and I think when it touches people then people and it'll it's a piece of history now and you know people can talk about it and hopefully you save lives you know by doing this like I said before. And you know you preserve the legacy of the people who are there and you you you showed the feelings of the survivors or the people who were affected by the deaths. And you covered it very well, very well balanced. Congratulations. Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate you having me on to discuss it. They are really important topics and I think they're also very interesting to listeners to just debate, you know, because some of the things that we said today they may or may not agree and absolutely they should have the right to have that dialogue. Yeah, and I was flipping back and forth throughout the whole movie who to blame you know and but that's that's the point right that's to figure it out. But it doesn't happen again. All right, there you have it. David Bellino director producer of America's deadliest rock concert the guest list. You can watch it on reels channel it's available in Canada as an app, a streaming service in the US it's on the on your cable, or you could even get it as a stream, probably even online. So thank you very much. And if there's anything else you know in the future that you are you'll be doing any work or continuation of this you're always welcome back on the show to talk to us about it. Thank you. I appreciate it very much. It was a good talk. It's a difficult watch, but a must watch it's something we should all watch and learn from so I thank you for David for your neutrality through and through presenting all sides. And I think you did an excellent job for a very important subject. Appreciate it. Thanks again for having me.