 Hi, welcome to the All Things LGBTQ interview show where we interview LGBTQ guests who are making important contributions to our communities. All Things LGBTQ is taped at Orca Media in Montpilier, Vermont, which we recognize as being unceded indigenous land. Thanks for joining us and enjoy the show. If you happened to be driving a long route to guest afternoon sightseeing and you drove through East Montpilier, you might see a unity flag and a new sign that says Fox Market. And if you stopped in, you might meet this time's guest, Liv Dunton, who is one of the co-owners of Fox Market. Welcome, Liv. Hi, thanks. Thanks for having me. So I want to start with how does a self-identified non-binary person go from central Maine to central Vermont? How did you get here? Well, so I grew up in Maine, but my mom's family is actually from Newport, originally Newport, Vermont, and really loved coming here every summer as a kid. And both of my siblings moved to Vermont and I felt the call as well. And for me, there's a great sense of security when I crossed the border into Vermont and entered the mountains. And yeah, it just feels like home. I was called here, I feel. And welcome. And we're glad you're here. So I understand that you had worked some in the food industry. You were a buyer for Hunger Mountain Carap and you were on their board. So that sort of connected you to the central Vermont community. Yeah, so I was looking for a job in Vermont, looking for an opportunity to move here and saw that Hunger Mountain was hiring. And we used to stop at Hunger Mountain on our trips up to Vermont. And so I knew the co-op well and loved it and was really excited for an opportunity to work there. It was such a wonderful time for me because it really allowed me to introduce myself to the central Vermont community and the vendors and farmers and all of the people who work so hard in this area to bring a food culture to central Vermont. So I was really excited to be a part of that. I still serve on the board. I really enjoy that work and believe very strongly in cooperative business models and learned so much while I worked there. It was really, truly great. So was the work that you were doing at Hunger Market co-op? I'm going to have problems with that today. Was your experience at Hunger Co-op part of the vision for the creation of Fox Market? Well, I think both Donnie and I come from co-op backgrounds. We both worked in multiple co-ops. And I think there is an idea with co-ops that they serve their community first. They are a business second and they serve their community first. And I think for both of us, but I'll only speak for me, that that is very true to the business we wanted to create here was something that served our community and the community that we wanted to make feel welcome here. I noticed on the Fox Market website that part of the About Us talks about creating a unique selection of foods from local and mission-driven companies and that it was affordable pricing. Could you talk a little bit about who those local produce people or vendors are and mission-driven, what were you looking for as part of their mission that made them desirable to you? Yeah, so I think like some of the really wonderful local vendors we work with include Littlewood Farm, Tamara Collow. We've really enjoyed working with them and bringing in some great produce. Right now we just got poblanos and jalapenos in from Littlewood Farm and actually roasted up a bunch of jalapenos and poblanos last night and they were delicious. So that's been great. And just seeing what they're doing and producing and managing to get out of the soil in Vermont and with the wild weather we have here and the very short growing season they do beautiful work. Rogers Farmstead Milk and Yogurt, they've been with us from the beginning, Square Deal Farm, Mable Syrup. Don and I both had really close working relationships with Ray through the co-ops and we're really excited to keep working with them. And then some of the mission-driven, what we look for, certainly queer-owned businesses, other queer-owned businesses we can support, women-owned businesses, any business that's choosing to give back or donate as a part of their programming and who they're donating to is certainly important to us that we vet that and know what's going on. But that definitely gets priority in terms of product selection for us. And the Donnie that you have been referencing is the other co-owner who we thank for manning the register so that we can talk. Yeah, he is here in spirit. Well, and you've mentioned the local produce and roasting up some jalapenos, the Fox Market offers breakfast and lunch and bar snacks. And we'll talk a little bit about the bar afterwards. Could you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, so we offer breakfast sandwiches every morning and those are made with entirely local ingredients. So it's La Ponziata bread, cabbage cheddar, local eggs, and Vermont salumi bacon and breakfast sausage. So we're really excited to be able to do that and they taste good too, but they're also really local and that felt really important to us. And similarly, when we do lunch specials every day, so we have things like chicken salad, which is made with local chicken and two different sandwiches that we do every day. And those are usually like today we had roasted eggplant, which was from Littlewood Farm. So we got to roast up their eggplant today and put it on a sandwich with hummus and avocado and it was good. And it was nice to be able to use seasonal local ingredients as much as possible. Yeah. So the menu changes. So how would I know what it is that you're offering today? Yeah, so for our market menu, which is all grab and go, the sandwiches and salads, those are always different, always unique, always sort of seasonally driven or produce ingredients we're really excited about. The best way to find out if you're curious exactly what's in it is to either just give us a call or text or send us a message on social media. We're really responsive and happy to talk you through anything. Okay, so we'll make sure that your phone number and yours and Donny's email addresses are on our screens. But you also have an email list that I can sign up for. What am I going to get for information from your email list? Well, we're just starting to kind of get together something for that. We're hoping to start doing monthly newsletters. We do our wine club, which is really, really exciting for us. We curate two bottles of wine every month that we love and are really excited about. And those are generally worth about $40. And then wine club members also get 10% off every other bottle of wine they purchase with us. So it's a great way to sort of see the wines that we're excited about, what's trending, what's that sort of information, and to find out more about how to sign up to be a member of Wine Club as well. And you also have the Fox Bar, which is this wonderful upstairs community space. And I noticed that not only do you have books where I could get my grab-and-go sandwich, go upstairs, grab a book, but there are games that I could play with whoever else was with me or was using the space. But you also were planning on hosting events. Yeah, so hopefully we will be hosting events soon. We're sort of putting a little pause on planning anything while COVID is so serious right now. But our hope eventually is when we're excited to have big social gatherings again is to have art openings or live music. We are pretty limited by the capacity, the number of people we can fit in the building. But we still want to be able to have at least some small gatherings and show off some local artisans and things like that. But if I have a concern relative to COVID, you also have picnic tables and yard games out in the back that I could use. Yes, there is outdoor seating that's attached to the bar. You can take your glass of wine or beer outside or your sandwich or coffee. So you can have plenty of room outdoors. It's a big space. Definitely you don't have to hang out upstairs, but it's a big upstairs space as well. So there's plenty of room to social distance. And from the sounds and the background, business just picked up. Yes, there are some customers in here right now. I was going to say one of the things that was intriguing looking at your website is a deliberate effort to try and create community space. And I don't think that there's really any other public space in East Montpellier where people could just go and hang out with each other, have a cup of coffee and run of your incredible breakfast sandwiches. Yeah, I don't know of anything else. And that's certainly what the community has told us is that it's so nice to have a space like this where they can gather and spend time together. So that, you know, that feels great that we can provide that. And I could sort of wander in virtually any day with the exception of Mondays. Yes. Mondays in Vermont, I don't think anybody wants to say that. No one's open. But you're going to be open probably from like 7.30 in the morning to at least seven o'clock at night. And there's some indication on Fridays and Saturdays you may be there a little longer than that. We're often here much longer than that. Yeah, the seven o'clock closed time is a really loose guess. And sort of a joke at this point. We like to stay here late as long as we're here hanging out, we'll let you hang out. And as long as our customers here, we'll keep being here. So we've never kicked anyone out. We're happy to stay late and keep pouring drinks and creating the community space, just being here. Yeah. If I have a question about, oh, it's quarter of seven. I wonder if they're staying tonight. We'll put your phone number across the screen again. You can always give us a phone check. And yeah, we're here. I'm on the way, you know, have my ice tea ready for you. I also happen to know this when I was looking around at other LGBTQ plus organizations. The Fox market is listed as a sponsor supporter of outright Vermont's fire truck pull. Yes. How is the how does Fox market trying to reach out to and be supportive of the community around you? Well, so I think, you know, first and foremost, providing a space that prioritizes the safety and inclusion of communities who otherwise may feel ostracized. But then beyond that really putting our money where our mouth is, we donate all of our tips, we try to pick central Vermont organizations every month, especially ones that are focused on queer issues or other issues that are close to our hearts. But, you know, outright was our first donation partner. We donated our, well, we like to say our customers donated over $6,000 to outright Vermont in the month of July. So really very impactful. And then, you know, just in general, making sure that we are making choices that are ethical to what we believe in and to our community and to the people we're trying to support. And that's a product selection in, you know, how we let people be treated in our business and how we treat people within our business. So with that, I need to say thank you so much for bringing to this interview. And thank you for what you're offering to our communities. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for doing this. It was, it was a lot of fun. It was great to be able to talk a little bit about, about Fox. Hi everybody and welcome to all things Elgin BTQ. Tonight we have Elliott Covey, who is coordinator of Momentum at the Price Center. And we'll talk a little bit more about that later. But first I'd like to get some background. So how are you and thank you for coming. Yeah, thank you for having me. I am, I'm good, been enjoying this warm weather for sure. So feeling good. Good. How are you? So you grew up in Vermont? I did, yes, in central Vermont. Okay. And how was being in the LGBT community or being gay? How was life here for you as a kid? I think like it's very interesting because I come from a very small town. I come from Williamstown, which I feel like is a blip on a lot of people's maps. So they're like, I know Northfield and I know Barrie, but we're right in between those two and nobody hears of us. And so it's a very interesting place to be. That said, not a lot was happening in my town. We were a very small school system. We're a very small town in general. It's like 3,000 people. So it's very little. And of a school of maybe 400, and that's between six and 12th grade, there was maybe four out queer kids in our entire school. And I was one of them. And so it wasn't very social, unfortunately. And it wasn't until like I was late into my junior year that we actually tried shifting our school system to be more inclusive altogether. So up until that point, no one was talking about the LGBTQ plus community at all. It definitely wasn't part of our curriculum. And even to this day, honestly, a lot of people just still aren't for it. I'm sure you have all people remember the Take Back Vermont movement. And those signs pop up all over my small town. You just got to know where to look. Like my neighbor has one on his barn. And so it's just like, oh, I don't really want to look like this and go into town. But I think being a local helped me in that sense. I'm not sure if necessarily I would have felt as safe in my small town had I not been like grandfathered into it. That's for sure. But like we're a generational family there. And so like my grandfather grew up in that town. And so I think that that definitely helped me feel a lot safer. And then like coming to Burlington completely threw me for a loop. I was like, oh my gosh, queer people exist. I was like, there's more than two. It was such an eye opener for me. And I was definitely able to do more exploration, hang out with a broader array of people, and ask questions that I didn't even know that I had. Because I didn't even know like this vocabulary existed. Like where I grew up it was you were gay or you were a lesbian because like there was no talk of any other labels and stuff like that because it just wasn't it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't what was that. Oh, it just wasn't part of the culture. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It was taboo, so to speak. Like we're not talking about gay culture in a town where people wearing confederate flag belt buckles and stuff like that. And so it was it was definitely a culture shock. So you were glad to get out and get and that's when you went to UVM, right? So I started at Champlain. I just graduated from my BSW program at Champlain in May. And now I'm at UVM getting my master's degree all in social work. And I got a minor in social justice from Champlain as well. So I majored in social work and minored in social justice. So I have both both the people skills, as well as like the advocacy work under my belt, which was definitely rooted in a lot of what I felt I wish I had growing up, you know, because like I didn't receive all these like fun opportunities or exciting opportunities or even like safe opportunities because because it was so taboo. And you must think like it would be nice. Like Scotland, they you know, they have just passed that LGBTQ history has to be taught in schools. That's amazing. You know, and we really need that in the United States, you know, for a lot of different groups, but you know, you would have felt less isolated maybe and and maybe even people in your community would have learned something about, you know, LGBTQ history and the struggles that people have. Exactly. Exactly. Like I didn't even like learn how I didn't even learn like proper health, like health and wellness material, which I think is super unfortunate and super toxic in our society today because like kids aren't learning how to protect themselves because it's not part of like the binary culture and whatnot. So that was part of like our movements at the end of my time in high school was trying to shift our sexual health curriculum. But it's still so limited and curriculums are still so limited, whether it's health, whether it's English, whether it's history, you're not getting that content that's inclusive of different identities. And so so much is getting swept under the rug. Absolutely. And you know, we really need that for our young people. Just think and grow up. I mean, there's too much depression and suicide and bullying and all of that, as you well know. So how has being LGBTQ really shaped your activism and how are you going to use your social work degree to maybe, you know, work in that field or have you figured that out yet? I think I'm still kind of figuring out what I want to do. But I think I'm leaning more and more every day towards working in a school system and like providing that care that I thought that I needed because I think that there's not the support systems in our schools that could be crucial for these kids who are experienced such like severe mental health, there's some mental health related illnesses. I mean, sorry, it's been a long day. I'm fumbling a little bit. That's great. Thank you. Thank you. But I think that there's like a lot of mental illness related to sexual and gender identities because kids don't feel like they can be safe in schools, they don't feel like they can be safe at home. And so like, where are they safe, if not in these areas? And so I want to be able to provide support for youth in ways that make them feel like they have that safe outlet, even if it's not at home. Because some people go to school hoping that that's their safe space. And if they can't even find it there, I worry that they're not finding it anywhere. And so I started at, well, I started with the sexual health program. And that evolved into working with outright for a short period of time, which of course is like working directly with queer youth. And now I'm working with adults, and it's like a wild experience, because it's like not something that I'm used to. I'm used to working with youth. I was actually going to be an elementary school teacher at one point. And so I've always been like driven towards youth advocacy and youth support. But I found that like social work was the better way to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so currently I'm at DCS out of St. Albans actually, working with families and the family support unit. And I think my hope for that is taking my queer identity and being that presence in that space because there's not a lot of diversity in that profession in general. I think that DCS is very cis, it's very straight, it's very white. And that's not representative of our communities, regardless of what a lot of people would like to think. And so there are kids out here who are already struggling in a system, but also are adding layers to that struggle, because their identities aren't represented. And so I would like to somehow be that be that face in that area of darkness that kind of makes things feel more optimistic. Like you might be a youth struggling now, but you don't always have to be that individual. Like queer people can flourish. And do. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You will get out of what you're in right now. And I want to be able to provide that for youth. And I really despair both about really young and really old people in small communities. Like yours, where you just feel like Chittenden at least has some places that people can learn about to escape or to get information. But the rest of Vermont kind of is left out in the cold, especially in these little small areas in which you know, there isn't anything. And if you don't have supportive parents, you're kind of left there on your own. It's really hard and the hard. So I'm glad you're thinking about doing that and being involved in all of that. And I think you're right that the Department of Children and Families is not as supportive as it could be. So yeah, they're definitely evolving. Like all systems are. But you know, all systems, I think need that extra support. And I'm happy to be that extra support to help move them forward in whatever ways that I can. And not like a tokenizing way, but in just like a in an optimistic advocacy sort of way. Yeah. The thing where you are is, you know, makes change. People have to deal with gender identity and, you know, lesbian and gay and, you know, whatever is, you know, just being a presence. I think makes people have to be more aware or have to at least deal. So I think that's really important. So how did you end up in the Pride Center? Yeah. So going into senior year, I was panicking because I didn't know what I wanted to be, what I wanted to do for my field placement for that year. I was really up in the air because I was like, do I want to work with kids again? Or is that just like playing to my strengths sort of thing? Like, do I want to challenge myself this year? And I was really unsure of what I wanted to do. And my professor starts poking around. And she falls on Paula and Paula got super excited because she's a lovely woman and I love her to pieces. And she was like, I would love to have you under my wing this year. And we talked on the phone a bit and we seem to like click really early on. And we were like, let's try it out. And so it was kind of like a fate sort of brought us together sort of deal. At least that's the way I like to think about it. Because I was lost and Paula kind of found me. And I'm very grateful for that. And so now you've gone from children to seniors. Got to play all sides of the spectrum. You're going to have a lot of experience everywhere. And I know that, you know, I've gone to a few coffees that you organized. And there's a lot going on in momentum. And so do you have any other things in progress? Any other ideas about how to move that senior group forward? Yeah, I think we're always bouncing ideas around. We actually just took on a BSW intern from UVM. And they are also going to help try and launch different parts of the program forward. It's just been so complicated because COVID restrictions just go up and down. And so it's like, we want to get engaged in the face to face community. But also we want to maintain that safety. We know that like this population is a vulnerable population. We don't want to put anyone in harm's way. And so it's been difficult trying to navigate exactly what we want to do next because restrictions are shifting every other day, it feels like, even though we're like two years into it at this point, I feel like we're still all over the place as a nation, you know. Exactly. And so then we'll have to shift everything inside anyways, because I don't like to be cold. I don't know about anybody else, but I certainly don't like to freeze my bum off. And your next event is next Sunday? Yes. Yes. So coming up, well, it's technically, I don't know if you consider it next Sunday or this Sunday, but Sunday the 17th, we are going to be coming at everybody live from Bolton, little resort there. There's a cute donut window. Yeah, yeah. Heck yeah. That's awesome. I think it's going to be great. It was a collaborative thing between me and the intern, because we want to go out and enjoy the colors before they disappear. I know that's my favorite part of fall is definitely those red leaves. So I'm excited to go and like sit in nature. But also just wanted to make sure we got as many out in the open opportunities in before we're shoved back inside for however many months, because that's how it goes in Vermont is it might start in November, but it'll go until March. Easily. Yeah. Even April. Exactly. So the snow is just no one's friend. Well, I really like the idea of, because I'm a real proponent, as you probably know, of getting things out of Chittenden County and into other communities. And, you know, I really like the idea of meeting in different parts of the state for the coffees and forgettogethers and for meeting other people and having people join. Because I think that's a real lifeline for seniors to connect with other people in communities in which they may not have that kind of connection. And I think that's really important. So I applaud that effort immensely. Yeah. And like, I think one of my biggest fears has always been that stuff promoted through the center and through momentum have been with this like underlying click energy, if that makes sense. Yeah. Because it's just like people think that it's primarily for people in Burlington. And that's just not the case. Like we are here to serve the entire state. So why wouldn't we try and make things more accessible for folks in random parts of the state? Like we want to bring accessibility to as many people as possible. And I feel like that's just not being brought on by people thinking that we're supposed to only cater to the Burlington area. And so like that's why I hope that at some point, if not before winter hits as soon as spring starts to be able to get to places like the Northeast Kingdom, I want to get us down to Rutland area because there are people down there. But they're just like at such a distance that I feel like they don't feel like they can count on us. And I want to create an environment where everyone thinks that they can count on us. And like I know that you have a momentum up in St. John's right now at the pub there? Or are you thinking of the like queer friendly like coffee? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that that's like one of the places that we've considered and stuff like that. It's a little tricky because like I'm not super familiar with these places because I've only ever like passed through St. Jay. I'm not very good with a map. I'll be honest. My supervisor at DCF likes to make fun of me because I thought that the bridge going into Alberg was the bridge going into New York. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I just like have no understanding of direction. I can't get anywhere if it's not off I-89. I always tease Ian and I say she's geographically challenged. That's me. That's me, honestly. And so like I think that not only will this benefit me by like expanding my understanding of different geographical locations in Vermont. That's like an outed bonus I think. It'll help us reach out these different lifelines like you mentioned to folks who definitely need it but don't feel like they're like welcome in a way. And yeah, that's like my biggest fear is that folks don't feel like momentum for them. In winter it's a long way for people to travel to do events in Burlington. Definitely definitely. I think that's also been like I don't want to say a perk of COVID but in a way it's kind of been being able to put some things online. I know that that's difficult because not everyone is great with technology. So like we try and keep stuff super simple just for accessibility purposes. Like we don't want to go on like I don't know some wild goose chase through the internet. But I think things like the bingo was super accessible and folks were able to come together from all corners of the state which I think is great. That's been a blessing of Zoom really in some ways is that it has the potential if not already has brought the community closer together because we can all come from different places and see each other and oh you're from Williamstown. I live in Mount Billy so why don't we have I mean you know so why don't we have dinner or why don't we have coffee or you know because we're actually neighbors. So you know let's do that. Well I applaud all your efforts and thank you so much for being on. I really appreciate it. You're doing wonderful work. As a senior I really appreciate it and we will see you next week and you have a wonderful week and I hope we get some more good weather. Thank you. Thank you very much. So Vermont is frequently cited as being one of the top states for protections for the LGBTQ plus community not only in the areas of law but how comprehensive those statutes are and particularly as it pertains to family law and today's guest was my first and really my only choice to talk to about Vermont LGBTQ plus community family law based upon her years of advocacy within the legislature her role with freedom to marry her private practice where she has extended services to our communities not to be undone by the fact that on two occasions she has been benamed the Vermont family lawyer of the year. Please welcome Susan Murray. Thank you Keith. Every now and then it's nice to invite old friends back just so you can embarrass them. Exactly it's true. You have been in the forefront in Vermont for legislative actions and have made frequent appearances before our legislature but I think I wanted to start with how did you happen to come to Vermont and why family law as your area of specialty? The course of my life has been completely serendipitous. I came to Vermont from NYU law school because I didn't want to live in a big city and I got to Montpelier and was interviewed by Vermont Supreme Court Justice who offered me a job after two hours of talking about baseball and skiing essentially and then I moved up to Vermont and I've never left. So that's how I got to Vermont. That was in 1983 and then how I got into family law was I was a young associate in my law firm Lang Rocksbury and Wool and one of the senior partners gave me a divorce case that I had to appeal to the Vermont Supreme Court and I apparently did a good job with it. So I started getting more and more referrals from that particular client and it just mushroomed from there. So it was I never took a family law course in my life in law school but here I am. So Vermont because we're not New York and family law because you were good at it. So I guess so. So you are in active practice. Yes. What is it that the LGBTQ plus communities are coming to you saying this is what we need help with and do we indeed have the statutes in place that support their requests. So the good news is that Vermont has some great laws in place now. Finally. So both for people who are in a relationship and married or not in a relationship and not married and for single people. That's the good news depends on which category you fall into that will depend on what you need for legal interventions or legal work. But so as everybody knows we now have a marriage equality law that's been in place that will protect families of same sex couples who are married and the children born during those relationships we also just recently passed a parentage law which is one of the few in the country I'm happy to say and what it does is provide protections for children and the relationship between an adult and the children even in situations where the parents are not married. So this this bill this law didn't come about because of a need a particular need within the or overwhelming need within the LGBTQ community. It came into being because the Vermont Supreme Court was seeing many cases of unmarried heterosexual couples who had children together and then they broke up and there's a battle over whether the biological father or the non biological father if it was a step parent situation but an unmarried situation whether that person had any parental rights and before the parentage law was passed that parent had no parental rights. So what we have now under the new parentage laws a couple of really interesting things for this community one is we have something called de facto parenting. So if you're in a relationship an unmarried relationship and you are helping to raise a child with your partner and you have a significant you're in that relationship for a significant period of time and there is if you can prove a significant parental relationship with that child then the court system now has the legal authority to recognize you as a legal parent called a de facto parent. That's a huge move forward here. The other thing that's I think very interesting that I actually helped write the law the parentage law and we put in there a provision that I thought was going to be controversial ended up not being controversial and that was that if it is in the best interest of the child then there can be more than two parents legal parents for the child. So for example I can think of a case not in this state but in another state where it was a lesbian and gay man decided they wanted to be parents so they had a baby together. They were never a couple but they were good friends they had a baby together then later on the lesbian entered into a relationship with her own same-sex partner so now there are three people parenting this child getting along famously and then the child became sick and had some health issues neither of the biological parents the gay man or the lesbian with whom he'd had the child neither of them had health insurance at the time for this child. The only person in that three-person relationship who had health insurance through her job was this third party this other woman the woman who was in the relationship with the lesbian mom. So in that situation we now have a law that says that's a really good reason for adding this person to the to the to the list of who the legal parents are so in that case you would add that that third parent as a legal parent and then that child could be insured through that person's um health insurance just one example of how that law has changed things. Is that a difficult process for no believe it or not um the I have to tell you that the forms that are on the the the the the the the the Vermont judiciary's website are have not totally caught up with that particular provision but I have had no problem I've had a couple in which uh you know the there was a man and a woman had a child together then they there was a woman who a third party came into that relationship they were all parenting the child together and we just sent paperwork to the court and the parties all stipulated to add this third person as a parent and the court just signed off on it because they now are they now can so it it turned out to be not complicated at all as long as the parties were agreeing to it was easy if the parties don't agree to it then you have a court hearing and the court has to decide whether it is in the best interest of the child to add that third party as a parent. I was going to say for those of us who come out of any kind of social work background the best interest of the child is a concept to which we are very familiar and we'll have an understanding of what it takes to establish that have the Vermont courts been receptive to the LGBTQ plus community in response to family law issues? Oh yes going all the way back to I think it was what 1993 when I actually did the first step parent adoptions is way before marriage laws way before LGBTQ parents could adopt each other's children and we took a case to the Vermont Supreme Court and the Supreme Court said that these couples had a constitutional right to adopt each other's children and that was that as I said that was seven years before civil unions and 16 years before we had marriage marriage equality so it's been a long time since it's been it's been a long standing at least 20 30 years at this point that the the Vermont court system has been receptive to LGBTQ parenting. As you and I had been talking about before we started taping a lot of the protections are clearly connected to marriage equality if I am opting not to use marriage what are some of the things that I need to be mindful of and what am I going to need to create outside of a marriage based relationship? Okay so a couple of answers to that to stay with the parentage if we're talking about children for a minute to stay with the new parentage law in addition to that three people can be parents and the de facto parent provision. We now have a provision in that law that specifically allows for well called surrogacy right? Justational carrier agreements specifically allows for alternative reproductive technologies it's in the law now that was the wild wild west before this law was passed I would do contracts for couples who wanted to have a child and they wanted to you know use sperm from a sperm bank and it was not clear what was going to happen there and now we have a law that specifically covers that and that is true even if that couple is not married. It provides additional protections if you are married and additional presumptions if you're married but it's not impossible if you're not married. That's that's the parent agenda things. The other thing I would think about if you're not married and in a relationship or if you're single I would call this the what I'll call the estate planning part of my practice which is there are documents or some documents that everybody should sign regardless of whether they're married or not or regardless of whether in a relationship or not and that is you should sign an advanced directive which is a health care document that tells the health care providers out there in the world that this is who I want to make health care decisions for me if I'm unable to make them myself and it also gives you the opportunity to say what your preferences are I want to be kept alive at all costs you can check that box out for I do not want any extraordinary measures you can check that box off you can say whatever you want there's a part you know there's a provision where you can write what you want and then actually that document also allows you to actually say hey if if and when I do die here's what I want you to do with my body you know I've had I've had one lovely client of mine who said I've instructed my agents to spend 20 000 to bring the following 10 frames down into Vermont for a long three-day weekend on me you know staying over you know as such and such a resort you could say I I want to be cremated or I've already bought this burial plot or I want to be part of the reef system off the coast of Florida you know whatever you want to say you can say it in this document and you do not need a lawyer for this document okay but really quickly you're talking about I can identify who I want to make decisions and what I want to have happen can I also include I do not want specific individuals such as if I'm estranged from my family to make decisions and I these are the things I do not want to have happened there's actually a an actual paragraph in the form that says the following people shall not be consulted or informed about my health care condition absolutely so and I want people to know that website because they can do it for free online it's called www.vt as in Vermont vt ethics network that's et h i c s network dot org that's all one word when you go on there you'll see a section for forms I would click on the form there's several different versions of the form a short form which is about six pages is the one that most of us use so that's free you should do it and then once you do fill that out you need two witnesses to have to sign it to witness your signature there's also a page where you fill out you can send it into the cloud and therefore it's available to doctors if you happen to be traveling you don't have to carry a copy with you okay so that's really important anybody should do that the other thing that people should do is they should sign a will and they should sign a financial power of attorney the will and the financial power attorney or two documents that you basically need a lawyer for I know the reforms online they may or may not work in Vermont I'll just give people that advance warning okay everybody's situation is different and I would not want to be in a situation where you've taken a form online and filled it out and then it turns out after you're dead that it doesn't work it would be better to find out that it does ahead of time so the financial power of attorney is someone who will take care of your financial matters if you're incapacitated okay so the will only comes into play if you are dead you can change that up into the moment you die right but the financial power attorney works like that health care advance directive the advance directive deals with health care decisions the financial power attorney deals with financial decisions so someone will pay your bills make sure you you know your utilities stay on make sure they collect your your your paychecks or your disability checks or whatever it is and make sure they get deposited and deal with all those financial things that happen to many of us so those are important documents regardless of whether you're in a relationship or not so with our last remaining time here since you were in active practice what are the areas of family law in particular that still need to be tweaked or where protections may not be as well defined as there could be uh I think we are in great shape here I think there are some forms that still need to be paid attention to we have we have birth certificates that can be changed name change orders that you can get if you're if you're trans person you've got you can go to court and get all that straightened out we've got anti-discrimination bills so there's very little that Vermont can do at this point in addition to what it already has in place I think we're we're we're I'm happy to say that we're in very good shape if you cross over the border into other states all bets are off I will say one other thing about our adoption laws if you are legally married and your partner has a child that child is considered yours legally even though you are obviously you are not the biological you don't have a biological connection to that child however I am still advising that non-biological parent to adopt the child in case they move to another state and the legal presumption of legal parentage may not carry over into another state but the adoption will so I can tell you that the probate court judges are irritated at that because they say why do we need to do that anymore because we've got the marriage laws with the presumption there and I said because people move and if you move to I don't know Mississippi I'm guessing that's not going to you know cover your situation so anyway throw that out there okay with that thank you so much for spending this time with us you're welcome thank you for still being out there and active and thank you so much for the work you've done over the years thank you Keith for everything you've done too all right it's great to see you nice seeing you thank you bye bye thank you for joining us and until next time remember resist