 Hello everyone. Welcome to another IR capsule for the Shankar IIS Academy. Today we are taking up the question of Indian space program, specifically because there have been some developments relating to an old SPI case which had affected the functioning of the ISRO. There have always been speculation that many western countries, particularly the United States, were not very keen on India developing a space program, not to have competition outside a limited number of countries which already had attained that level of proficiency in space program. In fact, some of you may remember that after the Chandrayaan mission, there was a cartoon in a western newspaper showing an Indian, half-naked Indian, with a cow accompanied by a cow, knocking at the door of a luxurious space club. In other words, India was kind of storming into privileged class. That was the point of the cartoon. In other words, they were very envious that a country like India, which is considered poor, was entering into the space program. But in actual fact, even in the last century, India has been engaged in a space program, very modest initially, but it had grown further and we had reached a stage of sending up rockets and gathering information and even sending up rockets for other countries. So it was not that India had suddenly burst into the space scene. It was an effort started many years ago by people like APJ Abdul Kalam in Trivandrum and it had developed into a space program which could be comparable to many of the other countries of the world which had the space capability. And this, therefore the Chandrayaan or other missions with the PSLB rocket was something that India had developed indigenously all these years. But later we felt that our propulsion material should be changed. We were using the solid propellers and we needed to move into modern technology and therefore we requested the Soviet Union, at that time it was still the Soviet Union, to give us technology for cryogenic engine to increase the capability of India's ability to lift up much bigger payloads, that was the whole idea. And we signed a contract with the Soviets, at that time it was still the Soviet Union, but the United States requested the Soviet Union not to give the cryogenic engine to India for fear of technological competition. And the person who made that request was the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee who was none other than the President Biden of today. He was the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee which asked the Soviet Union not to supply this particular technology to India. And of course they made the usual threat that if this was done they would impose sanctions against Soviet Union. Something like recently when we were buying S-400 missiles, Americans tried to stop it but in the new circumstances they gave us an exemption. So a similar thing happened at that time because I'm talking about early 93, 94. And so the Russians promptly wanted to cancel the contract but there was a young scientist who was in charge of this program, thought of a bright idea of trying to get, because what was told to the Soviet Union was not to give us cryogenic technology. So he told the Soviets that okay don't give us any cryogenic technology but just supply an engine within the present contract. And we would be quite happy with that the rest you can forget about it. And the Soviets agreed to give this engine but they said you have to find a way to fly this into India. We will not take the responsibility. He asked Air India, Air India said no this is suspicious Americans may be offended so we will not lift it. So this young man found a way to find an airline somewhere in Central Asia and got the engine flown via Pakistan of all places because that is how that flight came and it came to Trivandrum. So this was just an engine. It did not have the technological capability to adopt it but this particular instance was seen by the Americans as a kind of offensive action by this particular scientist. His name is Nambi Narayanan. He must have heard the name. He was in the news because he has been in the news for many many years. So this was funded the Americans and this we are speculating what may have happened and everybody forgot about it but they handed it all to the CIA to investigate as to what happened and who did it and if necessary whoever did it must be punished. So people are unaware of it but suddenly this little city of Trivandrum which is quiet and sleepy was rocked by a spy scandal with all elements of a spy movie. Two Maldivian women had come to Trivandrum. Yes they had come to Trivandrum and the story was that they honey trapped the scientist and some other police officers and sold the Triogenic engine to Pakistan. This was the allegation and so several people were arrested. With that this scientist who was a promise for India was very skillful basically the man who made India strong in propulsion techniques and he was arrested and for two years he was imprisoned and tortured and the point to be made was that at that time India had no Triogenic engine technology available to us and even if it was available to us it cannot be sold like that cannot be packed and sent away to Pakistan that is not the kind of technology it is. It will take years and years of learning and documentation etc to transfer technology like that but police people particularly of the Kerala police decided that this was done and they tortured him really badly just to make him say that he did it but he refused and therefore he suffered a lot of injuries almost his life was in danger and then suddenly wisdom prevailed on the government and they transferred the case from the Kerala police to the Central Bureau of Investigation. So Central Bureau of Investigation did a thorough inquiry and by 1996 he was arrested in 1994 by 96 not only he but all those accused were exonerated and released from prison saying that this whole plot was fabricated. So we did not know who started the scandal but we knew that this was also got involved in some kind of power politics in the Kerala government against the Chief Minister and his supporters etc that's another story we don't have to go into that. We are concerned basically about the impact of this incident on our space program. So once the CBI let him go of course he became all of them became free but Mr. Navinaran said this cannot end here. I should know the truth of this matter and I should also be compensated for what happened to me nobody would like that to happen to anybody and so he continued the hot battle and the battle went on for 11 years and finally he was not only compensated financially but also he was given a Palma Bhushan award in recognition of his service to the nation and now of course he is totally an exonerated he is considered a hero of space research in India and he's you know living here in Trivandrum engaged in various other activities related to space research. Why this whole idea now came up? The story came up is because the new movie has been released many of you may have seen it I haven't seen it yet it is called Rocketry the Numby Effect. So till now till this movie came out mostly the focus was on the suffering and injustice to Navinaran but nobody knew the amount of work he had done and the amount of work that the space research organization had done and how much advance he had made in the technology of Karayajanik engine and though it was delayed we were able to use it in 2001 we were able to you know send a satellite up with the Russian Karayajanik engine and in 2017 we were able to develop our own Karayajanik engine. So what should have happened in 1994 if we had got the technology it got delayed by many years but we still managed to do that that's the point I'm trying to make. So the fear was that this whole exercise was done by foreign interests particularly the United States targeting the entire Indian space program that was the theory but this movie has shown that the role played by Mr. Navinaran in this particular instance may have ignited this problem and not that they were against India's space program as such so that is the new information but that new information is of not much importance to us but the important thing to remember is that the ISRO one of the most prestigious organization among the public sector undertakings suffered on account of this but our program went forward and we managed to do many things including the moon and the Mars and we became a respected member of the space club. So did this impact negatively on Indian space program that is something which we are yet to find out. So the study is going on investigation is going on as to how this happened but this spirit of this scientist which in a doglet pursuit of a cause has been well portrayed in this Bollywood biopic as it is called. Most storytellers were focusing on the torture and the wrong that was done to Navinaran and how he was finally exonerated by the Supreme Court of India but the movie dwells at length on the space odyssey of India and Narayanan's signal contribution to science and that is a significance of the movie and that is why it may be of interest to civil service candidates because when you review the space program of India this particular instance regardless of the suffering of a person or the suffering it goes to a large number of families who are all accused of so many things but that the ability of the ISRO to survive this but there is one unknown element in this because when Mr. Navinaran was arrested in 1994 it would have been very easy for the ISRO to issue a press release saying that this is not possible because we did not have a cryogenic engine technology with us. Why the government of India did not do that is a mystery but in 1996 just before he was exonerated the senior officials of the ISRO issued a statement that he was unjustly accused because it was not possible for him to even if he had wanted he would not have been able to transfer any technology to Pakistan. It was actually when the time when we were developing the cryogenic engine till 2017 there was evidence that several foreign agents were trying to sabotage this further sanctions technology denials and even pressure on the USSR to halt cryogenic engine technology transfer on false excuses. So then what ISRO did again by the in the leadership of Mr. Navinaran which developed something called a Viking engine which they had developed earlier and it was used as the major powering rockets of India. It was Viking engine but later it was named Vikas engine which is in the name of Mr. Vikram Sarabhai. So this Vikas engine is now the main propeller of all these flights that we see. It has never failed in 53 flights so far done by the ISRO even the Chandrayaan and Mangalyaan. In other words the damage done by the spice scandal was marginal and India is very much on its way to claiming a fair share of the space available to the world. I should also mention that I interviewed Mr. Navinaran last week on a program called TVTPS some of you may be familiar with that in which I spoke to him for about one hour. If you are interested please go to YouTube and look for TVTPS and you will find this one hour recording of my conversation with him. So he after so many years was recounting his experiences the whole horror of it the difficulty of it you know he but he was very calm and cold about it maybe because it's after so many years but the movie brought out all this tragedy in a big way in a very detailed manner and now we know how much he suffered and also how much he had contributed to India's space program. So he was more concerned when he was talking to me about the loss the government of India and the ISRO sustained on account of this many years of uncertainty rather than about his own story but he has not stopped it there even though he says that as far as I am concerned the story is over I have been honored by the government of India I have been compensated and so I am willing to forget everything for that purpose but at the same time he said it is in the interest of India and of the ISRO that the whole operation of the spy scandal who managed it who are the people involved and therefore he is now not the he's not taken the case himself but he's the prime witness to a case which has started investigating into the scandal itself and trying to find out who was responsible for it. So the cruelty and injustice done to him is yet to be exposed but it is quite clear that he was not involved in it and it is also clear that the foreign forces are trying to sabotage the Indian program but one thing is certain in my mind that he was targeted basically because the kind of 007 activity undertook without of course his seniors knew about it but nobody knew the specifics of it and he individually heroically did something which irritated perhaps the present president of the United States Joe Biden because he was the chairman of the Senate foreign relations committee. So this is the story has come up so I would recommend that you watch the movie I haven't but I will but at least listen to his narration of what happened and answer to my questions and that will benefit you in several ways well the nobody may ask him the examination of the spice scandal but space is a very important aspect of India's growth and this can't figure in various question papers and discussions and also maybe in your interview people could ask you this question and that is why I decided to feature it today but there have been another there has been another development after we fix this and that was the incident in Taiwan incident in the sense that you must have read that the speaker of the US Congress Nancy Pelosi actually visited Taiwan she has just left and this has become a big international event because the Chinese have not only protested they have started what they call a military operation around Taiwan to show their concern and anger at what she did maybe we'll deal with this in another capsule but I just wanted to flag that such an incident has happened and we need to follow it in detail in the next few days thank you very much absolutely that's why the American I mean US is a super far they have changed regimes in many countries how many times they have changed regimes so this is a minor show for them this is not a very complicated process because you can always buy people in any country they are willing to sell their own country for some concentration and that is a human feeling and the Americans are very clever and extra as you say to deal with such issues so the in fact Mr Naminaran has said that the movie is almost perfect in the sense that there's no exaggeration there is no in any any kind of innuendo in it and the story was actually you know not taken to the Bollywood level but it was worked out in a realistic basis so this is quite believable no nobody else has been compensated but of course they have been exonerated and that that will come after the further investigation now that is taking place because he had sued them on his own because of his suffering nobody else seems to have done that but if this is finally established that the Kerala police or anybody else in Kerala was involved in this then this other question went also arise I believe these Molybian women have asked for compensation but that will all go to the court after the investigation it's already many many years but justice is slow but sure and it may happen in the future because the exception in the case of Naminaran was that he had made a big contribution to Indian space program so it is not that that somebody has been you know arrested and tortured he's a national hero and that is the reason why Prime Minister himself spoke about it and gay Hume Padma Bhushan and also the Human Rights Commission asked the Kerala government to pay the government's pension well this is an evolution that you are referring to you see we are able to sign the nuclear deal in 2008 but before that many things have happened this China angle as you say is now a reality and now we are in the quad and space you know the Indo-Pacific is of great interest to the US and they find ourselves as a partner in that and that is what helped us to have the nuclear deal but before that before Obama's time or before Bush's time the idea was I was in the US several times during that period was to stop India from having any nuclear program because they are concerned at that time was Pakistan rather than China so they felt that we were developing nuclear technology in order to counter Pakistan or deter Pakistan China was not in the picture Americans were quite confident of dealing with the Chinese but towards the present century it changed and the American policy also changed and they were looking for partners particularly democratic countries in Asia Pacific so this is a recent development but at the time of this time they were totally against any kind of development of India either in space of nuclear technology and that is why they stopped the Russians from giving the cryogenic Indian to us so this new element of a partnership with India was not clear at that time yes they would also be punished I presume because that will be a long drawn out case because it is established that this allegation was wrong allegation was baseless simple as that because we had no technology to transfer anyway but how did it work and it's supposed to have brought down a chief minister of Kerala there are all these those aspects are neither in the movie nor in the investigation that has taken place till now so that is yet to happen but it'll happen well there's hardly anything can do with this secret operations of foreign countries we do investigate but they will never leave a trace Baba's accident for example it is by kind of imagination that we are thinking it may have happened but it is an air crash in the mountains and the pilot may have just lost control so they will not leave any trace of it and therefore CIA definitely is the most advanced technology they have in any time of history at that particular moment they had a hand in science and therefore they will not leave any trace so these are just speculation you cannot really establish it and that is the the idea that they are able to do that without leaving a trace but we do talk about it we have raised questions but those will not be answered no spy agency will answer those questions but we protect our scientists as you know because we have this concern and the several scientists have been killed in various ways and others may have been even you know removed from the scene they may be working for the CIA at this point it could happen so that's a bigger story but what we have to learn from this is that they had hesitation in making India powerful let me say one more thing you know after the 2008 nuclear deal we were supposed to import reactors from United States but no reactor has come to today do you know why the reason given is that India has changed its compensation law you must be aware of that in an Indian parliament passed a law saying that if there is an accident in any of these reactors supplied by foreign countries the compensation will have to be paid by the supplier and not by the operator and this is contrary to international law so when Mr Modi made his first visit to US he tried to resolve it in fact he even announced when he came back that this is true that we are going to have some kind of an insurance program in which India and the US will cooperate and thus it will be resolved but it has not been resolved till today so I happened to be in Washington that period and I asked a very senior person in the White House whose name I can never reveal as to what the prospects were of India getting these reactors you know what he told me he said we have signed this deal so that you are able to go and buy these reactors from anybody but we in our heart of hearts do not want to give you technology because we don't want to be held responsible for India's growth as I knew for a while that's what he told me I wrote about it at that time which created a sensation that was in 2017 I think and many people pressurized me to reveal the name but I did not I could not and I should not but that's what has happened looking back at history till today no reactor has been established no American reactor in India there were some six locations were suggested in Andhra Pradesh none of them was used so there is this inherent reluctance by this it may be changing now because of our new relationship but this was there all through in their dealings with India as far as space and nuclear technology are concerned India's relationship with US and its relations with Israel are two different stories out together because Israel is a product of the United States it's been supported strengthened looked after and and you know the reason because there are more Jews in New York than in Israel don't forget that and the financing of many big tech companies are based in Israel so the story in Washington is that nothing happens in the United States relating to the Middle East without consultation with the Israeli ambassador in Washington this may be true so that is a kind of relationship but our relationship is far from that we don't have that kind of relationship with the US so they will support Israel much more than they will support anybody else okay we are indigenous in many ways because we have indigenous reactors of course this idea of buying reactors came up because till that period we were prevented from getting any room outside because we have not signed the NPT and there was the nuclear Suppliers Club established in 1974 to prevent India from developing to nuclear technology beyond our first experiment so this group of countries were capable of supplying nuclear material became a cartel in order to prevent any technology going to India it was an India specific grouping of course they gave an exemption from that in 2008 and therefore now we are able to buy but even as we are able to buy we are not getting everything that we want and therefore it is essentially indigenous reactors in fact this is what we are doing now that we have not been able to buy any foreign reactors except the good old Coot and Coulomb which is still functioning we have now the change track now we are saying that we will establish more the traditional Indian technology reactors of course even if we had bought foreign reactors we would have been able to increase our nuclear power much more and also save ourselves from climate change because as you know nuclear technology is clean technology as far as the atmosphere is concerned so we have failed in that and so we have set it aside and we are moving ahead with developing our own technology and the uranium is very much in the process of becoming a good material for nuclear reactors it has not come scientists have been promising 10 years 15 years 20 years but still has not become economically viable and also we are now participating in the other program which takes place in France implosion rather than explosion so that the danger of weapon making is not there that also has not reached any final stages so these two alternatives we have and if one of them comes about either uranium or the implosion technology comes about then we will have our own technology to deal with it but at the moment we have to go on with the present situation yes that is because of China the Americans are quite willing to take us into MSG in fact that proposal was made by the Americans that now that we have signed the nuclear deal India should be allowed to enter the NSG but they also at that time mentioned Australia and some other conventional weapons group which we did not join we did not want to join those chemical weapons etc but they you know proposed it as a package that will be will be allowed into missile control program will be allowed into conventional weapons program will be allowed into chemical weapons these are all programs to restrict activities in this to certain people so but they were willing to take us all into that and a package which was presented was by the Americans also included NSG but the Americans keep telling us that they are trying very hard to convey to the Chinese that should be allowed but the Chinese have a problem because if India is allowed they will have to work for Pakistan also to be allowed so both are known entity countries and they would of course like to have Pakistan but they would not like to have India so Prime Minister personally went to many of the NSG countries you may remember in 14 15 16 he made it a personal mission to go and approach these countries and their answer was as I was also saying that you have an exemption you have an exemption from NSG without any limit of time or material so then why do you want to be in the NSG is a question the answer is if you are in the NSG then you can participate in the policy making of the NSG and thus prevent others like Pakistan from entrenching so that is seems to be our concern but as far as supplies are concerned we are no problem any NSG member can sell any material to us on the basis basis of that exemption which was supported also by China on a personal phone made by President Bush to a Chinese president went up to that level and then they agreed for this exemption so they say we went out all the way all the way to give India the exemption so why do they want to be members also this is the Chinese argument if you want to be a member go and sign the NPT nuclear deal will not be is that position what can you do about it they have said it very clearly that Taiwan is not an independent country it is a Chinese province which is rebelling against the center that's all that's the only status that they have but in reality they have dealings with them they have prayed like for example the first thing that it was some banning some trade from Taiwan when Nancy Pelosi landed in Taiwan so it's a very peculiar situation but one thing is certain that the Chinese are very clear that they would want to unite the two and they are only waiting for an opportunity and in fact Nancy Pelosi going there was a kind of testing of waters as to what they would do because once they start a war or something it'll be very difficult for anybody to control it and so the new agreement between Russia and China under which China is not supporting the Ukraine war there is an unwritten provision there that if China ever wants to capture Taiwan Russia will support that so they have some kind of a notional date of 2027 assembly speculate that is the target time for China to do something and then of course try various other things to persuade the people of even when Nancy Pelosi went there were some demonstrations by anti-American forces in Taiwan so that means there are some people there also so with that if that grows and if they are able to get the majority of the people to support China it'll be easier for them but Americans have made it very clear whatever hell or what sort as they say they will not allow that to happen so after Ukraine the possibility is even more of China doing something about that but that'll be a world war it will not be like Ukraine so everybody will be cautious but the inevitable may happen one day you don't know in what form it'll happen well this is a debatable point because the nuclear deal will end when India tests again has not written in so many words there but it has been clarified if India tests that'll be the end of the nuclear deal we understand that we know it and we have signed it with a clear understanding that if we need to test we will test and abandon the nuclear deal that is the option and so it is not possible for us to test without this change but nuclear technology is such that if you don't test it becomes unwieldy it becomes unworkable that is why we tested in 98 what we tested in 74 had become obsolete and that's why testing was necessary in 98 but now I don't know how long we can go without testing but it is very clear that if tests the old sanctions will come back and the American of course many things may have changed in the American relations may be very different at that but the technical position as of today is that if we test then the deal is off I think so see in the case of Hong Kong they agreed to one country two systems because they have been violating it all the time so an arrangement like that is what they should have without violence in fact the Taiwan president had met the Chinese president I don't remember which year it was after Americans had normalized relations with China and between them the research had an understanding because it operates as Taipei you know in some specialized agencies Taipei is a member which is actually Taiwan Taipei is the capital so there are some secret understandings between them and so maybe the Chinese will agree to a suggestion that Taiwan could continue to be a liberal economy democratic country etc etc but accepting the you know Suzerainty of China may not be sovereignty but Suzerainty and that is probably a massive solution and there have been also talks between them so it is not the world does not know what's going on but Chinese position is that it must join China one day or the other and when we when even the Americans say we believe in one China policy so what is the existence of Taiwan as an independent country for a long time and we also we don't recognize Taiwan but we have my own brother was ambassador to Taiwan he was never called ambassador he was called trade representative but we have relations with Taiwan for trade and other businesses but so this is the arrangement with many countries but UN does not recognize Taiwan it's not a member of the United Nations because repeatedly China vetoes membership so there are too many complications but we can only hope that it will not turn into a war and more important thing is now to stop the trade war before all of us are consumed in that in different forms so that is the priority and also there are rumors saying that she went on her own and President Biden had not authorized her etc I of course don't believe it it is too important a matter for a mere speaker to deal with though she's number three in the hierarchy of succession it was a deliberate act I would say but the people say that it was she did it on her own because she will not be speaker after November election and this was her last chance to make a flash all these things are being said who knows but it is practical practicality because at that part of the world they need an ally in the global context of rivalry with China and so they have a quad on this side but on the other side who do they have so an independent Taiwan and democratic Taiwan will be the interest of the United States but they know it is very difficult to accomplish and so both of them are biding their time there is no confusion reached us yet but the portents are the the signs are dangerous and difficult so we have to just wait and see I don't think we can afford to have a war with China frankly a five trillion dollar economy not even five trillion they're not yet against a 15 trillion dollar economy is not a balanced battle that is why even in 2020 when the Chinese you know invaded us we say what did we do we approached it four ways one negotiations number two strengthening our military capability number three sanctions against China and number four establishing good friendships so this is our four prong strategy towards China and that will continue if there is no choice we may have to do various things but I do not think it will be an equal fight and nobody would want to fight any unequal fight so we are not likely to certainly declare war on China and any circumstances but at the same time we have the deterrent capability China has a known first use principle we also have one so we don't need to fear Chinese attacks and if they attack we can attack back so that's a deterrence and therefore peace is the only option we have with China no North Korea is not directly against us we have good relations with North Korea good within red commas but what they have done is they have given the technology to Pakistan so that is where we have a problem with North Korea because China has used North Korea as a conduit to supply nuclear bomb to Pakistan what Pakistan is a ready made bomb they did not develop it which they exploded in 1998 so that is the link that is what we are afraid of and you know that President Trump I tried to denuclearize DPRK and he seemed to be successful and there was a promise of denuclearization but there you all know the word denuclearization DPRK wants to use it in the context of the old Korean peninsula which means South Korea must also cease their nuclear activities and nuclear cooperation with US and by extension Japan so North Korea demilitarized denuclearization means the entire region and President Trump appeared to favor that but their second meeting in Vietnam fizzled out the first date itself and now North Korea is threatening to develop further that technology and they are doing that and they said that the next test if the North Koreans carry it out they will become level with the permanent fibers five members in the in their capacity not China and not US but they will be more like UK or France that level of capacity they would have achieved so that's the danger they are against it they are they are under the nuclear umbrella of United States and so whatever US US with thus with DPRK is with the knowledge of Japan because Japan has the deepest interest in this particular situation and South Korea and Japan so both have this concern and of course after Mr Abe became Prime Minister Japan's policies have also changed they have aspiration to become any clear power impossible and they are not entirely at the mercy of the United States so these are all the indications of the disorder of the world today and when it is if at all in the next few years there will be a new global order all these jigsaw puzzles will have to be fitted in and then only you can have a sensible nuclear order but there are so many intangibles so many unknown factors you know this yeah but the situation is also being complicated by the pandemic don't forget that we had enough problems when there is this calamity to place and the and 9 11 and then all the sectarian conflicts all around the world because we felt that you know after UN was born and things were going on and once Soviet Union collapsed you know there was a Unipolar world and we were feeling comfortable by becoming friendly to that central power and that was the kind of world order that we inherited then came the collapse of multilateralism thanks to President Trump primarily and then came the 9 11 then came the pandemic then came the Ukraine war so this is a little more serious than the pre first world war situation and the countries are all kind of soft balancing each other nobody is joining with anybody and all these groups are meeting but they produce nothing I had written something in the Hindu sometime past saying that multilateralism is not that this is not the time for it but continue bilateralism and try to win friends and prepare ourselves for a new multipolar world we can sit down and say this but those who are operating will have to do it and that takes a lot because they cannot refuse to go to these meetings but what happens to these meetings you go there and you can't face the others in the same group Mr. Jaishankar did not ask for a meeting with the Chinese foreign minister or the Pakistani foreign minister so what is the point of these groups and also these groups create you know declarations which other members do not agree with but still we have to go to show our presence we have to try to improve this from inside all these are factors so but since everyone is some tender hooks nobody wants to commit itself to another power I'm a multilateralist all my life 20 years I've been arguing for multilateralism so I would never roll that out but the point I was making was that at this point in history since things stabilize and people feel comfortable with each other certainly we should continue with multilateral otherwise many of my younger colleagues will lose their jobs so I would not wish them that so that is essentially that is what we want but I'm only talking about this particular moment when I see you know declarations after declarations which are just reproductions of what used to happen before 2000 you know before 2000 before 2001 and that kind of declarations are coming out which is not a great purpose that's all that I meant multilateralism is always good because it has certain principles are accepted by everybody but this is like the famous expansion of the security council there is no formula which will accept everybody will accept so the UN's future is in danger so but still we have to work for it I'm not saying that we should work for it that was not my intention and Al Qaeda leader is killed nobody is going to cry for him whatever may be the rule or regulation how many people's cried when America killed Saddam Hussein and also killed Min Laden it was only in Kerala some shops were closed when Saddam Hussein was killed nowhere else nobody raised an issue so these are just reality and there's a limit to personal freedom when it threatens a whole humankind dangerous on a nuclear weapon a man like so nobody will shed any tears on that account and nobody will complain and that is why they did it because Mr. Biden wants some kind of a you know energizing pill so he got two pills in one day one is the killing of the Al Qaeda chief and second was Pelosi landing in Taiwan so so people will say oh America is still here well it's too soon to say all that nothing much will happen in that terms unless there is a war breaking out these things will not affect economic situation nor because if there is a massive sanctions like in the case of Russia but these are these are still very early stages just hoping and we don't know I think we have gone into the Taiwan question in some detail because it's not a feasible thing for China to take it or to American to prevent it so there's a certain natural law which will go against any major development out of this but any disruption and trade any disruption in supply chains etc will of course affect us but that now that's already affecting us and because of a crane war it may become worse and if there is another disturbance between China and the US also things will become bad so but it is too early to say how this will develop thank you very much