 Good morning. My name is Alex White. I'm chair of the IIEA's energy working group and you're very welcome to this event, which is part of the 2021 lecture series entitled Rethink Energy, Countdown to COP 26 brought to you by the ESB and the IIEA. In the course of this series, we're hearing from international thought leaders, renowned energy experts and political leaders, all addressing critical issues in energy policy in advance of the next UN climate change conference COP 26, which will take place in Glasgow at this November. That's coming on very quickly now. It seemed like a long time away when we started talking about it and it's only two months now. So, on behalf of the IIEA, I'd like to thank, as always, the ESB for their sponsorship of the series and that's critical to the success of what we're trying to do together here. We were delighted to be joined by Dr Angela Wilkinson, who is Secretary General of the World Energy Council. And I'd like to thank Angela for being so generous with her time to speak with us today, especially given how close we are, as I said to the to the upcoming summit and I'm sure she's very busy in those preparations along with all of the other work that the World Energy Council is involved in. Dr Wilkinson is Secretary General of the World Energy Council. She's one of the world's leading global energy futures experts, a distinguished Oxford scholar, which is where she's speaking to us from this morning, and a published author. She has a 30 years of experience in leading national, international and global multi stakeholder transformation initiatives on a wide range of economic energy, climate and sustainable development related challenges. I'm Secretary General and CEO of the World Energy Council in 2019. Having joined the Council in 2017 to create a practical energy transition toolkit for leaders and to direct a new strategic insights programme. This Angela worked for periods at the OECD, at Royal Dutch Shell and at British Gas. She has a PhD in physics, is a fellow of the World Academy of Arts and Science, and has published four books and numerous articles. The title of today's address is going to be the World Energy Council's vision to humanize the global energy transition. Just to give you a sense of the timetable Dr Wilkinson will deliver her address of approximately 15 minutes or so. And after that presentation will go to a Q&A session with you, our audience. You can join the discussion by using the Q&A function on Zoom, which you should see on your screen, and feel free to send in your questions when they occur to you throughout the session, rather than waiting until at the end and they all sort of come punching in together. So if something bright, the inside occurs or question occurs, just put it in there at the end of the system when it when it does. Would respectfully ask that you identify yourself and affiliation if you have one, when you ask a question. Reminding everybody that today's presentation and the Q&A session are all on the record. Feel free if you're inclined to use Twitter and our hashtag there is hashtag rethinking energy. Before we go to Dr Wilson, it's Dr Wilkinson, it's my pleasure to invite Fergal McNamara, who's the manager of regulation and policy at the ESB familiar to many of you, and also chairman of the distribution and market facilitation committee at Eurelectric to say a few words by way of opening Fergal over to you and it's great to have you with us. Thanks. Thank you very much. And good. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, I, on behalf of ESP would also like to welcome you to this latest lecture in our series or rethinking energy. I'm here with the IIEA and those of you that were at our lecture in July will remember. Well, and things have become much more open with the vaccines with the vaccines. So I'm going to stop at 26 just around the corner with the recent events that we've all witnessed around the world showing the impact of human activity is having on our client on our climate. It couldn't be more timely for me to introduce Dr Angela Wilkinson and this talk. And it's my great pleasure Angela to welcome you back to the Institute. I will remember introducing you when you were last year in 2019 when we spoke about hydrogen. This is a really interesting topic. It's the role of the citizens of the energy transition and humanizing the energy transition and Angela I can well remember you taking the post of Secretary General and developing this as your own team and your own strategy so well done with that. Elf has a very long standing relationship with the World Energy Council Ireland indeed was one of the founders way back in the 1920s. And together with air grid, we formed the National Member Council and Dr on Kennedy in air grid is the secretary of it. Dr Angela Diskin is one of the SB employees who's occupied in the WECS future energy leaders 100 program which is a great privilege for us being for her. And today you'll hear about the WECS 2021 issues monitor on humanizing energy, and indeed ESB has made a contribution to that report. We show and outline the steps that we all must take as part of the race to net zero around the world. DSB were very committed to contributing our resources to the low carbon future and securing affordable energy. The customers of course are at the heart of the energy transition. And we're very conscious of our role as utilities. We must continue to help to customers to play that role, and to become active in energy citizens, we're willing to adopt new technologies such as electric vehicles, heat pumps and smart But we must all play our part and across ESB we are trialling and implementing new technologies to reduce our own carbon emissions by the label others to reduce those. In recent years, we've closed our Pete fired power stations and significantly expanded our renewable portfolio through investments in onshore and offshore wind. This year we announced plans to convert our money point coal station in country clear into a leading green energy hub. And so to enable customers to fully benefit from the clean electricity transition, we're supporting electrification through transport heating and industry. We are currently undertaking major upgrades and EV charging infrastructure in Ireland and the UK, while ESB network is investing in infrastructure to support electrification and the roll out of smart meters to more than 2.4 million customers as part of the energy as a national climate and energy plan. And so without any further ado, I'd like to hand this over to Angela, and Angela, we're really looking forward to hearing your talk and you're most welcome back to the eye. Thank you. Thank you very much ladies and gentlemen and to everyone online today, a very warm hello from Oxford. As the Sixth Secretary General of the World Energy Council, I'm delighted to be part of this rethink energy lecture series, as we approach next month's COP 26 meeting. And I'd like to reiterate the thanks to the IIA and the ESB for hosting this important event and to Alex White for his welcoming remarks. As Fergal says is a long standing member of the World Energy Council, and it's great to have an Irish energy voice that is active and being heard worldwide. It's a priority for us to ensure at the World Energy Council that we bridge the divides and close the gaps in global energy interests. We recently welcomed new member committees in Kuwait, Uruguay and United States. We have exciting discussions taking place in the UK, as well as at least another 30 countries across Europe. Now my goal today, indeed every day, is to remind us that humanizing energy is the best way to avoid the urgency of a global energy transition, creating a new threat to global peace. To explain, let me start with the origins of the World Energy Council and our enduring mission of better energy for all, and our continued role as the oldest independent energy community in charity. The World Energy Council was first formed back in the early 1920s. Then the transitions to coal and to oil were essential to save the forests and whales. And in ushering a new era of energy for peace, societies were grappling to recover from a global influenza pandemic, and about to experience a stock market crash followed by the Great Depression. It all sounds terribly familiar. The transition from steam power to electrification and life at the press of a button helped in usher in a new era of energy for prosperity. And the promise of clean and convenient energy uses has enabled better quality lives for billions of people worldwide and needs still to connect billions more to new livelihoods, as well as different energy uses. Our 100-year heritage in building the world energy community through these different world eras is unique, and it's the foundation for convening and cultivating the practical know-how and global common sense needed in today's era of energy for people and a planet. We don't predict winners and we don't advocate for any country, company or technology. Instead, we focus on the power of new middle ground by building bridges between diverse energy perspectives, needs and interests, and addressing the growing risk of ideological polarization. Now our ability to join the dots between multiple energies, agendas and diverse interests helps us support governments, businesses and societies face the cross-cutting challenges of recovery from crisis, repairing our planet, regenerating our societies, and not overlooking the post pandemic challenges of built-in resilience, which extends to people and supply chains. Now we launched the World Energy Trilemma Index more than a decade ago, and it provides a unique and adaptable framework for sustainable development, which measures national energy systems performance across four essential leadership dimensions, energy security, equity and affordability, and environmental sustainability, plus the quality of governance. The Energy Trilemma Index enables individual countries and diverse regions to compare their performance and learn from each other about what's working and what's not working, enjoying the dots between energy security, environmental sustainability, equity and affordability, and I know there's been an increase in energy security concerns recently in Ireland. In our upcoming 2021 index, Ireland ranks 11th place globally, moving up an impressive six places since last year's index was released, but I have to caution the data in the Trilemma always lags the current situation. A flexible and scalable Trilemma with global, national, regional and city level indices will help leaders at all levels of society rise to the challenges of accommodating the broader resilience, new affordability, and social justice agendas, which have emerged in response to the challenges of recovery from the COVID-19 crisis. Now whilst Ireland stands out amongst its peers in wind generation, it also holds great potential in the areas of energy storage, electricity export and green hydrogen production. Indeed, most countries in Europe are exploring hydrogen's potential and the national strategies published today mention interest in producing hydrogen from low carbon and eventually clean renewable energy resources by 2050. This slide gives an overview of national hydrogen strategies and it's a very dynamic policy space. I invite you to look at the Council's most recent global insights into the developments on the hydrogen vector and the value chain so that are being built internationally. Please also take time to take a look at the World Energy Transition Radar which we launched last year and tracks real time signals from across the world to clarify the direction and speed of global energy transition based on the culmination of actions being taken today. Today we see more signals for two different energy futures, one scenario called re-record and the other is called fast forward. Now our energy transition leadership toolkit is unique and used by our members to connect the dots, forge new common sense and enable new collaborative actions which deliver the built in scale of our globally networked community. And we've learned a lot in the last hundred years about how changes in energy affect our relationships with one another. Today, there is a lot of money being invested in big technology moonshots. We think it's important to remember that energy transition is not only about technology innovation and always involves societal disruption and transformation. I'd like to remind us all that only 11 men have made it to the moon in the last 50 years and more recently only the supremely wealthy have made it to the edge of space. The world needs human centric solutions for the many, the bottom third and the middle classes, not just the fortunate few. And I remain concerned about triggering a global technology when it takes all race to zero, which leads whole regions and many communities behind and becomes a threat to world peace. The island puts in place its plan to achieve a 51% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions compared to 2018 by 2030. It can learn a lot with and from its peers about placing people at the heart of this transformation by anticipating new and shifting energy uses, for example with 30% rise in electricity for servers in the digital economy and enabling a just transition and by reducing the energy in the energy house and have nots. We should not forget the historical role that access to energy has historically played in generating conflict and its continued lurking potential. There is no silver or green technology bullet. There is an opportunity to engage with the increasing diversity and energy as a source of learning and innovation. It is best achieved by involving more people and communities at all levels of society and aiming for a future direction of more sustainable energy, climate neutrality and social justice. Time and time again we've seen plans that look excellent on paper fail on the ground. This often happens when road building communities don't have a seat at the road mapping table. The High Island citizens assemblies have shown such great success and they stand out as an example of what community centric approaches can do for all of us. Because swapping out old technology for new isn't the whole story to avoid triggering a crisis in social transformation, energy literacy, behavior change and tax system reforms will also be needed along the way. I've been asked to predict the future. What will the global energy mix mix look like and the quote next question is usually how much will it cost and who will benefit my answers are never predictions but practicalities. There is increasing diversity and energy in the broadest sense not just resources and technologies but geographies people skills and uses and needs. There is proliferation by countries companies and cities of net zero targets and success is not in having a plan or a target or a roadmap, but depends on involving more people and the practicalities of road building. It's essential if we want to avoid the risk of cop out by the silent majority after the show is over. Cop 26 success rests on what happens after the conference itself. Unless people are and feel involved and feel that they have real choices and options that relate to their lifestyles and livelihoods, they will simply continue to do what they have always done and hope that somebody else will fix the problem. But if we stop shouting from the mountain tops and involve more people at all levels of society in designing and growing new energy solutions in the diverse valleys of connected energy societies. I wouldn't have to spend long talking about the difference between living in Dublin and living in tipperary to know that the choices for energy uses and options for transition are going to be different. But what happens in Glasgow doesn't stay in Glasgow, just like what happens in energy transition in Ireland can be shared with the rest of the world. Now it's our world energy community call to humanizing energy actions in progressing globally successful energy transitions along multiple pathways and in ways that address the challenges of societal innovation and transformation, not just accelerated technology innovation. To achieve this we're committed as a worldwide open to all energy community and charity to achieving a step change in energy literacy to involving more people and communities across all levels of society in making and moving energy transition forward. And in actively working to make sure that we leave no one behind workforce and jobs and also avoid stranding whole regions and communities in this transition. Now this is one of the reasons why the theme of the St Petersburg World Energy Congress next year in October 2022 is energy for humanity. It will take place one year after UN energy meeting this autumn, and after the COC 26 meeting which follows, and 100 years after we started up as the worldwide energy community. It will provide an opportunity to showcase achievements from across the world on humanizing energy for people and planet. So let me conclude with an invitation to see you all in St Petersburg in October 2022 to share what's been achieved in Ireland after COC 26 and to continue these important discussions on humanizing energy and involving more people and diverse communities and cities in increasing the harmony between people and planet. Thanks very much for listening, and I look forward to answering your questions in the conversation. Angela, thank you very much for that. Most interesting and stimulating and just, you know, just covering a huge amount of ground. And of course, people will certainly have questions and insights and just to emphasize to all of you watching us here, please participate. And one of the themes that Angela has is humanizing this agenda and involving as many people as possible in the discussion. So please get involved for the short time that we have here, and as well as more broadly Angela everybody's talking about, maybe not everybody's talking about a lot of people in sort of official done, and the media in the last few days last week or so are talking about this, particularly gas they're talking about worries about security of supply I think I heard the UK Minister on Radio Fort this morning, reassuring everybody that there wouldn't be a problem. I'm just curious without necessarily going into the detail of that. What impact, if any do you think that might have is there a risk that it could have a sort of a it might weaken public support for this whole agenda. You know that it then becomes, because I remember what you went out as a minister of people every now and again please say well security supplies security supplies got to be the top you know this trilema thing and security supply the first thing everybody I'm sorry I don't I don't denigrate that I mean of course security supply for industry for all of us. But there's a danger that it then pushes out the other agenda and I wonder if any thoughts on that. And what I think what we, this is rethink energy so let me let me think about the difference between the old security agenda and the security agenda perhaps that we're moving towards which I think would probably be called the resilience agenda rather than the old security agenda. So you know if I take Ireland as a case, then Ireland has been dependent on oil input ports, it's managed to reduce its import dependency by developing indigenous gas. And of course it's also stopping its use of Pete, and it's increasing its use of solar and wind power in particular offshore wind power right so there's a lot of going on on the supply side. And also on the demand side we're seeing shifts in energy uses so we're seeing a lot more demand for digital energy, you know, supporting the growth in servers in Ireland that's where your digital economies coming from. And we're seeing growing gaps and divides between rural and urban economies everywhere it's not just an Irish thing it happens everywhere in the world so energy transition is taking place in a different context and it did 20 years ago or 30 years ago and what's happening now is the challenge is how do we integrate these more distributed energy resources such as solar and wind onto the existing grid, as we take off some of the other large centralized supply solutions and to do that we're going to need to build more people you mentioned smart, I think Fergal mentioned smart meters that helps them manage some of their demand and shifts the demand around the different times a day. We're going to need new storage options, and we're going to have to talk about what happens when the wind doesn't blow, and how much storage capacity do you need to cover which is a lot more than people might think. When we knock out a peak five power station, it's a lot more challenge to rebalance the grid and make sure everybody stays involved. And none of this is going to happen without infrastructure and without a little bit more cost on the system, at least in the short time and working out who pays for what so it's not simply plugging in one technology taking it off it's no longer just about imports, it's about integration and balance, and it's also about who decides who has priorities, when the wind doesn't blow, who gets the electricity. But I suppose absolutely take that point and we're living in a completely different context now when we talk about security of supply, but just grabbing and holding people's attention. That's what I'm wondering about. So if people here. Oh, there's a gas, there's a problem there's a Putin problem there's a pipeline might, you know, even the new one might do anything for us and there could be, you know, will, I suppose I'm just thinking slightly naively that the only message people here and is the risk that these more, more subtle but critically important messages don't don't get through as easily as they might otherwise get through I mean it's just another challenge really isn't it to be faced. Yeah, I mean, I mean, crying wolf is no never brings a good solution to the table, and neither does blaming everybody else for what's going on. I mean we all have to take a hard look in the mirror and start to understand how do we use energy. Most people are unaware of where they use energy in their lives of how much they're dependent on it, we've got so used to just flicking a switch on and there it is. So for the first time in in probably most of our lifetimes. I'm old enough to remember the oil shocks and the disruptions of the 1970s but for many of us. It's so taken for granted we just expect it to be there. And now we're going to have to start becoming a little bit more informed. That's what we mean by energy literacy and a little bit more decisive about what sort of lifestyle choices do we face because it is going to require transitions going to require a change in behaviors, it's going to require a change in tax basis it's going to require a change in thinking about who gets things when and how we're using the energy more in more mobile applications we're moving around more with energy, you know your phone it's got to be charged on the go. These are all changes and I think for if we want to avoid crying wolf or blaming everybody else, then we have to help people better understand where they use energy. What choice what real choices they face and how they can help manage the transition so that the first time they don't realize it is when they don't have any power. So on the, you mentioned, again, energy literacy two questions have come in, and I just put them both of them out together because they're kind of linked. Bevin Cody asks whether you could point to any examples of initiatives around the world to increase energy literacy, and that happened successfully you know that have impressed you or that you might you think might be good templates for others to be thinking and then Kirsten Gluck agrees that it's very much, you know, the whole question of involving people and not, you know, the people don't see themselves as victims of change that they get to participate and they, you know, it's a broader political societal question as much as anything else. And Kirsten Gluck agrees. And that's the only way forward really and wonders, again, sort of similar to Bevin Cody, what kinds of proposals should we have in mind to involve people in the energy transition can actually share some more some concrete ideas and or projects that need to be looked at. Okay, so sort of saying look examples and they're both agreeing with you. So in in Korea, our, our Korean MC has an public information platform around energy which is used to help people in Korea think about their energy choices in our member committee in Chile has a lovely program called we are energy. I love the sound of we are energy rather than it's you or me, it's we are energy so there are different different types of intervention around literacy for energy citizens voters and public right there's a lot of literacy targeted as children. And that literally literacy tends to tell them that energy is either good or bad, and that's the wrong type of literacy. Energy is neither good or bad, it's the uses that we have for it and how we manage the delivery of energy that makes it good or bad. And I think just a standard understanding. I understand that of the energy I use what appears at the bottom of my utilities bill is a small fraction of the cost of that energy for the society that I'm part of so we tend to think we tend to in the public mind, we tend to refuse energy and electricity. We tend to think that we're all talking about electrification of everything, whereas at the moment, one sixth or one seventh of our energy uses as people is electrified six sevenths non electrified. And if we get if we're very successful by 2050, we will have elect we will have renewables for the 100% of the electrification bit, but as a world we will still have 50% of energy uses on electrified. That is the scope of the challenge we're talking about so a little very basic things of energy and electricity. How much do I use directly as electricity what other energy uses do I have. I'd love to see a little calculus this this year in from Ireland let's say to my Irish and see let me ask you to tell children how much energy is in their Christmas stocking this year. And I've got a question here from Emily Binchie who's a researcher here at the IIA and Emily recalls that the Court of Justice of the European Union recently find Poland for its refusal to close the true coal mine. This has been met by sustained resistance from the Polish government. And she's wondering when financial penalties fail. And of course, I know you're taking taking you into an area of diplomacy here but in any event when Emily was wondering with that when financial penalties fail, what kind of incentives would you suggest to entice coal orientated countries to make the transition to cleaner energy. For example, I mean, we will, as we approach World Energy Week next, next week, we will start sharing stories of successful energy transition across the world. And I don't think it'll come out in the first chance but in one of those stories from around the world, we can talk about how in Asia, a coal mining community has managed to accelerate. It's transitioned from coal successfully eight years earlier than was originally in the national target. So the point is not that not everybody's resistant. The question is how do they find their pathway through this and what can we learn from those examples. The point of coal is going to be very different in North America, then in Europe, then in Asia. And it's important that we understand that diversity in energy and the circumstances, and involve the communities themselves. As we start to talk about this transition and the implications for their livelihoods and avoid them becoming stranded communities. And there's plenty of examples coming from around the world. We have them also from things like closing the sullenbow terminal in in the UK. And you know, my view is if the UK would be in the run up to COP if we could be a little bit more honest about what we learned from failure to transition from coal to gas in the UK, we'd do a lot more about how we succeed in transitioning from fossils to renewables in the future. Mark McGranahan says great discussion Angela, and he'd be interested in your thoughts on the role of tariffs in increasing the gauge the engagement with energy objectives both in areas where there are effective markets and a more vertical energy systems the role of tariffs. And well, I mean, at the end of the day, wishful thinking is great, but you've got to manage a transition there's a cost associated with it and somebody's got to pay for it and and tariffs work in terms of how do we manage the market to avoid the extremes of too much of a price shock change if it goes up or too little of price shock change if it goes down or who needs to have some some support some subsidy or market mechanism to ensure them to support them as the market dynamic comes in what we see in the last few years. And from the global issues monitor this year is, we've always been worried about commodity prices and about how we reset national tariffs based on global energy dynamics. What we know is there's more volatility in markets and more uncertainties for the role of tariffs will become more significant I'm sure in ensuring that there's some degree of stability for some people somewhere. Interesting question here from Doreen Kerker. She says for a non engineer considering changing industry to join the energy workforce in the future. What sectors would you expect to see growing. And where could somebody like Doreen make a positive impact. Every sector, you know, so energy is in health, energy is an education, and there's an energy industry, but even the energy industry these days is hard to identify the classic energy industry where, you know, has that we will think of Jr Ewing and the oil business in Dallas and the redneck engineers but these days you know Amazon's an energy business. So, energy is everywhere, and I love energy because it matters. It really matters in people's lives so for me, it's, it's, if we get it wrong, it really hurts people. When we get it right. People take us for granted, and they wonder what the hell we were talking about at all about these energy challenges but that's the joy the joy is it really matters. When you get it wrong, everybody will blame you when you get it right, they won't even notice you've done it for you. That's the sort of life you've got to go into an energy professional. Great. Two questions, one from one of our attendees who didn't give his or her name. Would it be a good idea to list the cost of my energy bills to the planet, as well as the financial cost. I don't know how you do that but I think I understand the idea here which is which is not a bad one but how would you quantify it. I think we could quantify it in economic terms and be precise about it. I think what we have instead is we have general, ever since this sustainable development paradigm emerged in the 1980s, we've talked about the need for balance, balance between capital efficiency and technology and societal fairness and equity. So that's the sustainable development isn't that we just let markets drive capital efficiency through the system. We don't just let technology and engineers drive physical efficiency through the system because we know that not everybody can cope with that. So it's always going to be this three-legged stool of that's what the trilemma is. Security balanced against equity and affordability and against environmental sustainability. And the fourth dimension there is the quality of governance. And that's the big challenge today is that we are in this middle of this shift from an old model of economic growth to new models of human and economic development. And so the quality of governance is also going to have to make space for more generative, not just extractive ways of growing and pricing that is very difficult, right, but balancing it is possible and essential. And I wonder, just in terms of a new model of growth, we talked about decarbonized growth coming out of COVID all over the world. I wonder, do you think that because the pressure is going to be on a lot of governments to accelerate growth, to meet the gap that is there from what was lost, quote, unquote, during the pandemic period and the lockdowns and so on, the economic slowdowns. Do you think there will be an inordinate pressure to accelerate growth which itself then may work against or may have implications for the kind of growth, decarbonized growth that we want to see? First of all, what has COVID done? Three things, right, it's affected all parts of energy and energy uses and economies worldwide. But it's, we have a new context of affordability and social justice as we emerge from this COVID crisis. We haven't had that before and it's coming very strongly into the energy agenda and we have to take it seriously. And we've extended resilience now to people and supply chains. It's not just about physical assets and pieces of power stations and pipelines. We also have to think about the people who run the system. And the third thing about the COVID crisis is it's revealed that the inequalities in energy access are much more significant than we thought. When we emerge from a global crisis, we're going to have a global roll out of vaccines. There's 18,000 health clinics in Ethiopia that don't have any electricity. That now is an issue for everybody, not just for what was happening in Ethiopia. And so I just think that this challenge is going to be is much more around social transformation and social innovation. And we have to keep that in mind as we go through this. And how do we keep thinking about the equity and affordability dimensions, which are going to take much more local action, you can't you can't put a national roadmap out and expect it to work until you start taking it down through the levels of cities and communities and asking them what do these choices for you mean what to the cost of those choices mean, and then building that back up. And I think that's, that's where we're heading with humanizing energy. How do you think about how do you involve more people. How do you understand that solutions are going to be at the local level, and at the city level, not just at the national level. And how does that play out in different jurisdictions and policies around the world. I suppose. I think most I'm sure everybody would agree with that. Possibly an argument not not a counter argument of what you're proposing not a counter argument but one that is worth bearing in mind is that it might be suggested that a an exclusive concentration shall we say on people on the ground on strategies on local initiative as you've been rightly emphasizing that there's a risk that that lets governments off the hook in a sense. And I Ruth bar actually who was the first person who came in with a question. And she said surely what she calls an and and solution is the way forward so people working with strategy and plans because you know this. She said look people on their own. You can very well motivated and very keen to see change, wanting to work together in a collaborative way, but it can sometimes as you've seen in other agendas political agenda that can end up being just a bit chaotic. I can go around in circles and achieve very much so you know she's saying look yes to the as I understand I don't want to assume Ruth thinks herself but this risk of there being. All this good talk about community action but it can just go around the circles and achieve very little and the strategies mean well just gather dust. No I understand that so I'm not suggesting it's top down or versus bottom up at all but what I'm saying is that the missing middle. We tend to talk about big things national global big companies big technology beds, we tend to talk about minute details locally micro finance community schemes. What we're not talking enough about is the middle classes. The SME businesses, there's a missing middle here, and the miss the middle has to mobilize if we're really going to make transition work this is the social transformation we mean so I can. I'm completely on the same page I'm not some romantic ideal let's all go back to localization, but let's also remember that in the in the Midwest in the US. The electricity system was built through community cooperatives, which later consolidated to give us state centric systems, right that's the state level system so we've sort of lost that model of community cooperative actions. We're not relying only on it, but my my big piece around humanizing energy is not let's focus on the, the micro finance and the micro grid and the micro. Let's not just focus on the macro macro but let's mobilize the missing middle. How do we get the SMEs, the middle classes the citizens the voters, the workforce involved in this transition. Right, and own Lewis, and from the IAA here, one of our colleagues, and asks, how should we optimize investment in energy efficiency versus renewables. So I think he's wondering the balance between the two. We've optimized and actually there's a third wheel in there right so what we've looked what we've learned what our European members have learned by looking at your the European experience in trying to move transition policy is that energy efficiency renewables and climate and carbon pricing, all have trade offs with respect to each other so optimization requires you to just not not to have a dichotomy but there's a three wheeled bike there somewhere. And so it's always a question of balance so put three different policies into that bracket when you're talking about optimization. We would say, use the world energy trilemma index framework, you can develop it for projects you can develop it for cities you can develop it for countries you can develop for nations, but you're always going to have to balance those different dimensions and think about the quality of governance and what model of progress are you going for in your economy, not just what trade offs you have today. What do you think of the, you know, the EU have introduced this idea of a carbon border adjustment mechanism and to bring the EU as well as a step closer to fully pricing in carbon so not just having regard to what happens in the EU, but their own each jurisdiction, or indeed in the EU, but what we're importing, because we are at risk of, I suppose solving are going a long way to solving the problem in what we do ourselves but then do we import the problem from elsewhere so the carbon adjustment mechanism as I understand is an attempt to address that what's your, what's your take on it. There's always a poor policies there's always a noble intention you can you can add to it so that this is a way of saying, I mean, today I use one seventh of my energy as electricity and six sevenths non electrified. And those are that's often through imported goods and services that are coming from other parts of the world so you can see how having a carbon border adjustment tax helps you not be locally clean and globally dirty. So we've also got to think, what are we doing with, is that just an industry protection mechanism in Europe, or is it also going to help the rest of the world make their energy transition happen, how are they going to afford that there's no use point Europe getting to net zero. If the rest of the world doesn't at the same time so there's always interdependencies and border adjustments have positives and negatives that going to have to be very carefully attended to, if it's implemented and as we learn as we go. So as we approach Glasgow, and, and I remember, I had the privilege of being in Paris in 2015 and in Lima the year before, and a lot of the really compelling things that one heard there were Pacific communities represented as those communities and those countries, and really telling their story and got, you know, great deal of attention rightly so and I think motivated a lot of people around the world. As we approach Glasgow, and, and I suppose, there's still quite a lot of restrictions on travel, and we think there will be more restrictions in the future, a lot of us hope that travel is, even though we like travel but really, it needs to be priced a lot more keenly and I suppose all make decisions about how much traveling we should be doing will come the kind of representative communities representative the kind of communities you're talking about. Will they be even there will their voice be heard cannot be heard this time round given all of the restrictions that people are operating under. Well there's many ways of getting your voices heard in today's digital events world as well as I think we'll see a hybrid event for Glasgow, you know, the governments, the UK governments trying very hard it seems to get everybody to go. And there are realistic restrictions around why not not everybody's going to be there so let's hope they can manage a hybrid event we've all learned to manage hybrid events. Let's hope the UK governments also world class at hybrid events when we get to Glasgow and that's not a problem. I think it's very interesting to think about the future of transport and travel. I'm often sort of torn between the idea that we might be able to have virtual tourism, because at the end of the day we're curious human beings we like to go and see places we like to experience different experiences that's why tourism is such a great thing for us individually we like to experience different cultures communities tastes whatever. So I think there's a lot more travel that can be substituted for digital events and then there's some experiences that you just want to have in person and who knows where that pattern will fall out in the future. For a long time, it's going to be difficult for everybody to travel, but I don't think it's been easy for most of the world to travel in a world of borders since about 1850. So, who knows. There's a great question has a question here from Dan O'Brien and our Dan O'Brien I think it's it comes up as Daniel O'Brien I'm sure it's Dan O'Brien a fossil fuels still account for 90% of global energy use how soon will it be plausible. It's an interesting word plausible to end the use of the dirtiest fossil fuels coal and oil, how soon will it be plausible. Well, I mean, if you take coal. I think coal is responsible for 40% of the greenhouse gas emissions and all the coal infrastructure that we've got 5% of the coal infrastructure is responsible for 75% of the, the dirtiest emissions. So, you could make an intervention in coal which was fair productive and transformative, I think, but it's not about just asked, it's not just about insisting that other people who use coal give it up without anything so there's, you know, it's got to be a given take piece. So scenarios from 2019 we update them for the next Congress next year, and indicate that in the best of those futures, a scenario called unfinished symphony which is a massive policy coordination scenario across the world. We can get to just under two degrees centigrade, we can get close to two degrees centigrade but not under it. So if we're going for 1.5 degree and for going for net zero by 2050 for 1.5 it's quite an at the moment implausible you'll have seen the IEA roadmap of how you do that. I also understand the implications of that is that Africa gets brushed out of its energy future so when we're a long way yet from getting to plausible 1.5 net zero. And we're a lot further away, if we do that by prescribing green only technology. So if we open the policy space to say it's going to be about behaviors, as well as technologies. So if we open it to the technology space that it's going to be about a much broader mix of technologies, not just green hydrogen, but also possibilities for low carbon hydrogen of other forms, then we get a lot closer to the global ambition, a lot sooner. And with a lot more people crossing the finishing line. And as we come to the end of our session, and it's been really so interesting and stimulating we could talk about so much more. I think we're all conscious this week in New York that world leaders are convening over there, and Prime Minister Johnson is there. And I think there's a meeting between the UK leader and President Biden today or some sometime this week. And everybody's talking about Glasgow, like what maybe this is a little bit of an unfair question but you can answer in any way you choose what, what does a successful Glasgow look like what does it feel like you know what, what, what do the, what do the Sunday workers that weekend after a successful summit, what do they say, what do they look like what do they feel like. Well, I mean there's been a proliferation of net zero targets and goals across the world so somebody's going to have it all up and say what does this look like and do we actually have to have a tightening on what's been committed, or are existing commitments going to get that has still to be revealed right. So this is called a ratcheting cop. It's the framework was designed to be tightened every couple of years and this is a designed to be a tightening one. We came out of Paris Paris doesn't get us to two degrees, we will see a tightening of commitments but those might already be enshrined in the targets that we're seeing right so. But for me, the biggest change what would success be is that we understand that the risk of cop out by the silent majority is massive, rather than and we stop talking all about technologies and we start to talk about behaviors, affordability, and the equity side of justice which is dragging and we're talking about this. We're talking about the commitment at Paris for 100 billion to developing economies. I just like to remind everybody that it's trillions of dollars in the energy system, and $100 billion is a drop in the ocean compared to what those countries do. If we're really going to manage a global energy transition that gets 10 billion people across the finishing line, then this meeting this month is about the UN SDG goals by 2030. How do we get access for everybody. And then how do we get climate neutral access for everybody in a way that allows them to have better lives and livelihoods. 10 billion jobs by 2050, not just climate neutrality and that's the challenge it's working between the planetary limits and the social flaws, the space in between of how do you get societies of all different types across the line. And I'd like to see a celebration of diversity and multiple pathways, less rhetoric about green is the only way forward for everybody, because it will inspire at best a global technology rate when it takes all race to zero, and at worse, leave billions of people with no other choice, but to migrate somewhere else. So thank you so much for that. And for your presentation earlier and for your willingness to field a range of questions and for your insights and it's been terrific. Good luck with all the work that you're doing in WEC. And we're all hoping for, you know, real success of substance of Glasgow just as you've just been describing. I wanted to thank you for your attendance once again here today, thank the ESB for for their collaboration with the series. We look forward to seeing you again at some point soon, maybe in person in North Great Georgia Street, rather than, rather than just on the screen but that said it's been great to have you here today. And thank you for your time and generosity with your time and for your input. Thank you all for your attendance at this rethink energy webinar. And until we see each other again.