 Good. This is the second call today about the epiphany garden we sort of called it this morning, which is a name I loved on Friday, June 4th, 2021. So there's a whole bunch of changes afoot. Basically, oh, the phrase that I use a lot to describe this moment is that we're busy involuntarily renegotiating the social contract that occupy Arab Spring, Podemos, you know, you name the Mukti party, all these, even Trumpism, even QAnon, all of these movements are basically like springing from this energy that says, man, stuff is the system is broken, the system is rigged, we're being screwed, we need to sort this out and find a better system, right? And one of my amateur political science beliefs about Trump is that a bunch of people, smart people voted for Trump because they were betting that he would break a broken system, that he would shatter the present system so that something else could rise and triumphantly in its place. And people like Steve Bannon were trying to be the architects of the next system that would then have to be put in place, et cetera, et cetera. There's broken, let's shatter it. There's probably some of that, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't overweight that assumption. But I think there's a, there's a chunk of population that I think so on that bet. And so, and so I think that this query into what is the next system and or how do we act our way and behave our way and do our way into the next, the thing that's going to be common place in 200 years will be like, man, what took us so long to get here? And, and I'd like to be optimistic and think that in 200 years humans are still alive and we've solved a couple of things rather than, oh my God, pass me the last of the sea rations on this Mars spaceship because we're going to die soon. Like, you know, I'm trying to pick the positive future here. But I'm trying to say who, who now has created short snippets and I'm, I'm preferring this maybe another mistake in my, my planning here, but I'm preferring short things because I think almost everybody has an appetite to watch a three to 10 minute video, especially if it engages them within the first few minutes and says something interesting. This might also be a 10 minute segment inside of an hour and a half video. That's fine too. You want videos, not written word. And written word, good. I'm, I'm thinking sort of video garden, like, like epiphany garden as mostly videos. What about, what about audio? Audio only would be okay. And a lot of audio only is available on video with just a picture up. So YouTube holds a bunch of podcasts. Yeah. Okay. But there's also, but there's also a whole bunch of podcasts that you can only find on, you know, iTunes in some podcasts, like folder or something. That's just kind of hard to link to, kind of hard to get to. So not as, not as convenient, doesn't mean not as brilliant. But, but I'm looking for those brief snippets that somebody could bump into mix in a little bit of humor. So one of the ones that point to is Saturday Night Live recently did a riff on NFTs on non-fungible tokens that was funny as hell. And actually a really good description of NFTs. They're crashing NFTs. Yeah. Well, that's too bad. I hope that the people who paid a lot of money earlier got their money out. I hope they did. Well, that's a whole separate discussion. But the incentives need to be right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, so to, to your Trump's example, let me broaden the case as I understand what you're saying. Please. There are a lot of people who are very dissatisfied with how we, how things are now and want something different. There's a lot of disagreement about the diagnosis and about what the difference should be. But there's a lot of people who are saying, this ain't it. This is not what we, you know, we want, we want, we dream of, we fight for, something else. And so we want to evocatively illustrate a range of something else's. We're thinking about that. Is that about it? Yes. Like, what are these things? Go ahead, Brian. I might go back and say instead of a difference in diagnosis that, that perhaps we're not yet smart enough to have a diagnosis in mind and that we're willing to be persuaded on some of these issues that maybe we don't have, have us a firm opinion about that. It does not resonate with some existing political, you know, idea that we have, have in our mind. And that a use case here is someone that maybe had some sort of other fiduciary responsibility, because I find that if you're fiduciary, that if you're, you know, running a company or on a board somewhere or have, you know, parent, teacher, whatever, that you're more probably predisposed to be thinking about other people other than yourself. And therefore you're not, when you, when you present facts, it's important that you present things in a certain way where you're not going to look like an idiot in about 10 minutes, because what you said is just so plainly wrong. I like that a lot. I like that a lot. So, so kind of having skin in the game in some sense or I mean, one of the things I'm looking for is the magic eight minutes that'll convince people to think for seven generations and to think of us as interconnected, interdependent, and mutually responsible for the thing we stand on every day. Like, wouldn't that be great? Because somehow we've eaten a script that says, hey, greedy self-interest works great because there's this invisible hand that suddenly makes everything work out. And if only we had perfect markets for everything, everything would be fine because the market is the most efficient way to manage resources, all of which are arguments I disagree with, right? So you're looking for a kind of universal solvent? Sort of, yeah, which is water. It's going to work whether somebody has this diagnosis or that or that or none or the fiduciary perspective, you know, wherever they're coming from, something that brings them into that inquiry. But, but, but which I don't mean one ring to rule them all, meaning that the right answer is integral theory and spiral dynamics or the right answer is game B and whatever or the right answer is, but by which I mean the mix of answers that are moving generally in a productive direction so that someone could pick through them and say, this one smells, I don't really like that one. These couple smell really good. How can I get involved in these? Or how do I learn more about these? Or how do I go further in that direction? Yeah, so it's not so much trying to sell a right answer as shifting people's mood from, you know, despair and pissed off and helpless to, oh, that's kind of interesting. But also to mutual to mutual inquiry to more than to more than that's interesting to the to the notion that they would like to test and try these things with other people that they might learn to trust. It's like the right mouse click on an HTML page where you see the ideas that maybe someone else has. And so in that kind of thinking, instead of having a single ring to rule them all, the idea is maybe more akin to a GitHub where we're able to lever see what type of knowledge, what types of fact sets have been already been curated and then choose from from those. Okay, go ahead. Exactly. This means I agree. Okay, this is not this is this is my non-interruptive. I agree and I just interrupted you. So my apologies. But this is this is sort of a pause in sign language. Okay, so so so so so so GitHub as as a way of being able to tie together some of this, some of these different narratives. So the it's like a presidential brief where the idea is not necessarily to have this is the way things are, but rather to to be able to present here are some of the different frameworks that are being used on this topic and to be able to understand, you know, the shortcomings of each one's where where there may be some tendencies to to overstate or misstate the actual truth of those statements. And so when someone does what they call a gish gallop, the, you know, presenting, you know, a bunch of of of fake fake, you know, fake things, but throwing a modicum of of truth and into it and then presenting that as a single video, you're able to kind of go through that individually and say, you know, let's let's break this apart so that rather than, you know, accepting this thing as it at its face, because it's so hard to refute, you know, you have a framework for moving forward. Exactly. What's a gish gallop? A gish gallop during during the height of the COVID nuttiness that last year before the Barrington Declaration and all those people, you had, you know, a video that was making its way saying this is all the reasons why COVID is a is the biggest lie that's been perpetrated on on on the human race. And you had doctors that were behind it and there was a there was a a Google engineer that apparently had some some understanding of the of the in a gish gish gallop. If you look on the screen, I'm screen sharing, it turns out that I've heard of this term. It turns out that I entered this back in 2016. Holy crap. So, so I know it's so it's Dwayne Gish is the dude it's named after, who was at the Institute for Creation Research. He's a young earth creationist and basically a gish gallop is to spew so much crap so quickly it's hard to address. Thank you. That's that's like brilliant. Because that's what he would do. Yes. It's a little thing like like listening to Trump when when like there are so many lies packed into so few minutes that that fact-checking seems like the fact-checkers are just like sitting on the side with smoke pouring out of their head. That was that was an explicit banning strategy called flood the zone. Exactly. Yes. That's correct. And I'm and I need to link those two because yeah flood the zone and the gish gallop are completely related. Yeah. And I'm going to if my brain will catch up with me now. There's two to the left. There we go. So now I've got gish gallop connected to flood the zone. Yeah. Very good. And flood the conversation with nonsense is kind of the outcome of both. So let me link that too. So thank you. And what we're trying to do is offer an antidote to gish gallops. We're trying to create a place or a way or a manner for having reasonable discourse and make it work. And so to that extent I tried doing something like this last year with that with COVID and one of the harder lessons was that when you're working with a group of volunteers it's really important to maybe pre-screen the volunteers and make sure that everyone has the same definition of success. I didn't do a good job of that and as a result I think the effort wasn't as successful as I would have liked. But it's one thing when everyone's kind of like feeling happy and like we're going to make this change. And then quite another when you kind of are going down the football field and you're counting on someone to make a key move and then all of a sudden they reveal oh by the way this is what I believe in. This is the type of facts that that you know I'm going to fight you. I'm going to make this my hilt dialogue. I believe in so much and it's just like wow at that point what can you do? And so I'm really intrigued by the number of githubs, github variants that I'm seeing right now. This idea of building a second brain. The idea of people that don't know each other being able to share links and to be able to create scaffoldings from that that are like shared understandings. I'm reminded of Rafat Ali over at Skift who said that when he was looking at any kind of news venture you know going forward that the two things that he would have are number one you've got the breaking news that we currently associate with media companies. But the other thing was something that is like a wiki. Something that is like a explainer for all of these different topics just like IMDB is to movies. So when you're watching a movie you're able to to kind of go in and see this apolitical view of well what is this you know actor about and what else have they been in. A nice example here is a genius like graph genius which is sort of people deconstructing lyrics. Go ahead Stacey. To this point with the volunteers especially in the early stages I think it's really important to look for people that disagree well and I don't mean people that don't disagree because then they're probably full of shit because they're not telling you what they really think but people that often push back and are still liked by the people they're talking to because then you're starting a culture and I think that's important. Exactly exactly and and so it's a little problematic for me to think about the this garden as existing just as a media artifact that people bump into but with any luck there wind up being people who curated people who guide through it people who wind up holding you know holding other people's hands to try things out and examine what's there. Go ahead. I also wanted to offer a slightly different idea which is looking for audiences in places that we don't think the audience is for example among the people that don't believe in covid there's a large majority of people that do believe that the immune system is really key and if we could tie in the food systems the kind of things we want to promote and you know try to engage them in different solutions so that you have different groups working on solutions together because we all agree a healthy immune system is important so finding those places that we can link and then I think participation and getting these people you know I did that early on when I was dealing with some conservatives and they were always in the finance industry and what I started doing is saying all right well how would you do this and there was one person that had some good ideas and my hope was to get a bunch of people together and just moderate a zoom and it just never happened but there are a lot of lay people that have really good ideas and if they weren't so busy fighting on social media and I think the reason they fight on social media is because they have no other outlet where their voice can be heard there is no you know like that's the best they can do but anyway so that's well let me let me play with what you just said and see if I'm on the on the right trail so in my brain there's a thing about terrain theory versus germ theory and so pastor says hey look there's these things called germs but there's this other guy whose name is Bechon yeah Antoine Bechon who says no no no disease just attacks people who aren't really healthy so the thing to do is to be like insanely healthy and that's called the terrain theory which is sort of what people who is like I'm not going to get vaccinated I'm just going to make sure I'm really healthy so okay fine which I don't understand why they're mutually exclusive it just makes no sense to me why they shouldn't but but that's been the battle but but if I take what you just said I could take a terrain theory fan who's not invincible on vaccines and say hey you should create regenerative agriculture all around you in the city you should just go nuts on that because then you'd get organic food you'd get a blah blah blah blah and then we know that there's like 15 other great benefits from growing regenerative on on creating food and maybe they'll come around a vaccine maybe not I don't know but but you've at least sort of harnessed that energy for good with a bunch of other things that are in a parallel mode for making the world better so if that so if that fits I like that a lot because anywhere we where we can make progress and and having somebody who does eight things well and two things poorly it's like that's not a bad person that's just a you know how do we how do we how do we collimate our energies together so are we ready to move from frame and theory to ideas and content not sure at any moment if you want to just suggest media pieces whatever I'm I'm curious where Stacy's mind went since this morning's call because you're sharing some of it but what other kinds of things showed up for you and if you found any other snippets gill if you've got some candidates throw them in the conversation yeah um yeah and a place that I find fruitful for this is to ask some of the hard-hanging questions but like where I was trying to go earlier like what if we do get energy too cheap to meter but it's from solar or not from nuclear like we were promised in the 60s like nuclear was going to give us energy too cheap to meter nuclear kind of broke um so help me out here cherry yeah in in that hypothesis what would be an example of a kind of three to ten minute video that would do something with that so there's a guy named Ramaz Nan who gives great speeches great speeches about energy and the plunging costs of solar and I looked at a bunch of his sessions for a 10 minute segment that was that would do what I'm looking for which is hey if suddenly we have energy like more energy than we need all over the place and once you've bought the thing it just gives it gifts you energy back because you don't have to pour oil into it you're just you know catching sun then desalination gets insanely cheap right right so and other things happen because of that and the moment you can get cheap water anyplace especially near a shoreline because you start to like distill the ocean the moment you get cheap desalination you solve a bunch of other water problems you might even just start a bunch of these things pumping water back into the aquifer to replenish the aquifer wouldn't that be cool right you sort of reverse the role of sucking up the Colorado so that doesn't even reach Mexico so it's like so the invitation or is like you know what if what if we could have X yes that's one of the what might happen as a result of that or what might open as a result of that and what are some chunks of media that illustrate that in some kind of way and it strikes me as I think about it that one thing to do here is to go find some of those and the other is to put this out as an open call because there's a ton of stuff I'm just thinking of some of my own work where you know most of my videos are you know 40 minute kind of things because that's what clients have wanted but within them there's some gems of two-minute nuggets I was actually just thinking this week about getting some youngster to go in and harvest and make a great idea so but there's a lot of people in that situation there's a you know there's a treasure trove of that and so if we put out a call from OGM or whatever saying we're looking for you know two to four minutes things that do one two three four things you know there's no prize right and the answer can just be a URL with an offset because on YouTube it's super easy you know ampersand t equals number of seconds into the video right is a starting point and then tell me how long to listen and we're done but like that's a really easy way to report in a nugget yes you don't have to have it you don't have to make it you could just be things you're aware of what's your favorite two minutes out of the latest you know about as far as caucus thing or whoever yeah you read an article the video helps get you give you context on this and perhaps there is our links to additional material maybe another piece on what are the biggest two or three biggest questions that are inherent in this issue that we face in the years to come what are the things that prevent us from making the next step and then I'll call the action and here this is where I'm looking at people that are experts in this that if you want your own personal briefing yes you know some sort of process towards a give and take where you're able to say hey I'm a city official in California I'm super interested in this kind of thing and because my constituency has got this issue versus someone that is just there to cause trouble and so just some sort of mechanism to separate the bone of the real request from from everything else yeah and one thing that the city official needs is an example of where it's been done before yes he or she just can refute the oh that's impossible I totally agree so one of my theories of change is that almost everybody to change needs to see that somebody else crossed that river successfully and is happier on the other shore yeah if you have Ken boldings quote in your brain what which quote the one where he said existence is proof of the possible hmm I'm not sure if if I can show you that there it is on the ground actually operating it's a lot harder for you to say to me it can't be done yeah I don't have it I have the price of community as Palaver which is much which is good but not as interesting put it in so exist existence is proof of the possible what one structure that I might that I've been thinking of is is to adapt the up fronts that we used in in the media world and that is you know you know at the end of the year or the beginning of the year when it's always you know time for new year's resolutions and whatnot it's an opportunity maybe to to present what's going on in some of these issues you know you know going going forward so that someone that is thinking about the world or thinking about you know the holidays thinking about whatever is able to to say okay the 2021 you're in review what happened and and maybe making that a little bundle available you know think about how do we make this available for for media companies to kind of take on their own and to repurpose it and you know for themselves because so much of this depends on on you know you know people getting exposure to this year end year in review is an is an is an easy way easy approachable way to to kind of pass along these ideas and I just did screen sharing because I do this every year now Brian and so this is what's happened so far in 2021 Prince Philip is Prince Philip dies Mexico City Viaduct collapses iceberg a7 just calved away Edelman's trust barometer every year Chuggy is a new a new term Barca gate where a football club Barcelona had a whole bunch of scandal shootings Samoan constitutional crisis Myanmar crisis coup etc so I do this every year and at the end of every year I post a link to this you know and here's 2020 so at the end of every year I put on I think usually on Facebook or Twitter I say hey you know for for advanced credit follow this and you can see like the the recounting of what happened during the year yeah great Judy Stacy what are you thinking I'm looking up what you be means I'm wondering if this is counter countercurrent but maybe that's just my vexatious Friday mood good you welcome it what what if we were to not so much worry about messaging and length of message or form of message but just get words out there individual words you know commentary words you know feisty puzzling whatever they might be just to get people actually thinking about what's being seen or ranted about as an alternative as kind of a gentle disruptor if you will you know rather than trying to posit a different viewpoint or expose a particular point of view that's oppositional to just be quintessentially provocative so do you mean descriptive words about the content or just words about the situations and the questions well I was thinking more about the content you know if you see a blurb on Facebook let's say and it's starting to gain momentum if what would happen if somebody just said curious dot dot dot or that's odd dot dot dot or wonder about that or I don't know what sort of little non sequiturs that interrupt the thought itself with a question of some kind an implied question right go ahead Brian I I don't know if any of you use you are using the facebook shared collections but due to what you're saying reminds me of one of the use cases that we've been working on with that and that is when you kind of do that pattern interrupt and then you save it into the shared volume and that that gives the the the group working in the background the ability to look at that at that thing and apply the hive mind to that so that they're able to follow through and and to respond to that ellipsis you know with with you know facts reasoning you know some something that that kind of gets the training back on track interesting I hadn't even heard about the feature so it's it's I think it'd be fun you know Jerry given what you've done so far I mean I think it would be kind of interesting to to maybe you know see what you think think of it and maybe just just try it out but go ahead any time any chance we have to work on an existing scaffold as opposed to building our own I agree and I have a rhetorical question which is also a thought in my brain which is what if Zuckerberg had set out to build the platform for citizens instead of consumers right and because he built the platform for consumers it's busy sucking up our data dumpster diving stalking us selling off our data to the to the highest bidder the whole thing but if he had built facebook for citizens then our shared memory would be really important and our ability to vet the information and say this is reliable this is not would be really important would be a lead feature and our ability to weave narratives out of the our shared memories and stories and facts whatever we thought a fact was those things might be promoted to first class objects cherry this would be a worthy three minute video for you to shoot of yourself talking just what you've been talking about and post that on this site yeah that's a good idea and I haven't and I was just reflecting that I haven't made enough sort of videos like this recently so this is good good motivation I have to change seats so I'm still here if I'm just gonna move on I'm unfortunately gonna have to jump I didn't realize I had a call scheduled for now so I'm out of time all right but this has been good so far keep going let's see where we go thanks Gil yeah this is there going to be some yes I'm so on the on the on the calls channel in matter most I will post this conversation in these videos I will very likely host another one or two of these next week okay and then let's just sort of distill out of those what are the eight things that we want to move forward on exactly yeah very cool have a great weekend everybody treat thank you YouTube thanks for coming nice to see you sorry to have to eat and run sorry I had a connection issue so I kind of got interrupted in whatever I was thinking or saying and I don't know whether I was done or not that's okay and you were talking about just different words of just sort of words to draw people in I think sort of just being really simple about how people might get engaged in this I think is where you're headed well I was just trying to try to find a way to not head into a didactic where where it's like well you're saying this and I'm countering that however nicely closed the counter might be right right and I mean my own version of that is tell me more I need to understand more help me understand there's a bunch of things like that in a one-on-one that I'll do but I think we're talking also about how might you do this on printed media or things that are posted in websites or things like that which is a different yeah I mean to some extent you can do the same thing but I'm not sure that I'm going to post on an adverse post itself tell me more because that's something where I'm seeking to engage the individual in a personal way that's not going to happen in that informal paper stream kind of things yeah exactly so so an interesting tool here is what Adam Grant calls complexification and he says hey there's a lot of places where we have contention because because the argument has been presented as binary it's either free market capitalism with neoliberalism with globalism or it's communism and socialism and look how awful those have been and this is like a false dot false dichotomy and the way into that conversation with somebody who thinks that that's the model is to start complexifying it by peeling apart the issues in between by going into the details and I'm forgetting sort of he because he's Adam Grant he very likely has like the three ways to do this or the seven ways to do this I don't know but but I think it's a really nice approach because it says hey this isn't just a binary choice in fact there's lots of layers of sort of meaning and potential here and walking into that with somebody and part of the intention of this garden is for there to be a bunch of low-hanging fruit that you could go try for to examine these issues as you pull them apart a little bit I don't know if that makes sense yes but but there's this sort of a bunch of tactics for helping people come into difficult conversations there are some really nice exercises done there were some videos done a few years ago where they would recruit a whole bunch of people to show up for this for this event then they would have them stand in rectangles depending on some demographics that they that they belong to and and and then and so when the people were standing in their demographic they all looked really alike right so that might be like the white people over here and I forgot sort of what the initial rectangles were because those are important but then they started asking questions like you know walk step forward if you've ever had a night where you didn't know where you were gonna like get a meal and then like 10 people can step forward to the wall and stand there and then step forward if you know blah blah blah and and some of the questions are pretty easy at the start so that it's easy for people to step up and the questions get harder and then at the end of the day you realize just how similar everybody is who was in these different categories who was dressed really differently they were dressed goth or punk or or whatever and it's like and then sort of similarly but different there's a photographer who 20 30 years ago she went around the world photographing people in different cliques so she photographed a bunch of london skinheads who had like you know the the mohawk hairdo stiffened with egg white and leather and and studs and what was really fascinating was that if you looked across the cohorts the people were dramatically different looking they were their costumes were really different if you looked within the cohort the costumes were remarkably similar and the differences were just marginal just on the margin like everybody in in the skinhead cohort had a chain across the front of their output and studs in particular places and doc martin's on or whatever i'm making up some of that but but but the consistency inside of clique was was like conformity of a of a sort so that helps helps us realize some things as well but some of the things that i think are helpful here this is making you think that some of the things that might be really helpful here are these exercises that help us realize that we have more in common than than separates us which is joe cox's famous saying before she was killed by a crazy brit it occurs to me that if you look at like the sprint function the you know the that's an event or book clubs or what you know what there are existing groups or activity types that maybe this this could fit fit inside of um in order to you know in order to help it spread more more quickly because i i like i really like the video that you shared earlier on your facebook uh profile that kind of described you know what this was about and and i agreed with it quite you know quite a bit i think i think we are at that point where we kind of need to have that willingness to put aside our own you know bias or our own conviction that we need to be right and and be willing to to look at things with first principles um i'm wondering you know what what are ways that we can accelerate that process so maybe create you know book clubs for for businesses for startups um you know as as a way to kind of get you know help them create their corporate culture but at the same time help help them up up skill everyone in in their group on you know here's here the esg kinds of here's here's esg here's what it means and here's why you know it might be something that that you guys might want to take seriously you know in the next next 10 years um i i don't i don't know where you know where you are at in terms of thinking about all this yeah and so partly like starting book clubs or recommend on the one hand that's sort of beyond the the mandate of what i'm what i'm looking at right now on the other hand leaving simple instructions or you know hey if you'd like to do just do this and you'll soon be the host of a book club that's really interesting and easy right uh and and so and so leaving some of the tools for discourse and thoughtful uh inquiry like at hand is is also really really useful and not that hard and and the hard part it turns out i discovered when i started doing this is i i know kind of i'm looking for a particular sort of thing and it might come from aromas nam or it might come from tony dusa or something like that and it's like it turns out i can't find the thing where where's that clip and i only have so many hours in the day i can't sit and listen to you know hour and a half uh podcasts or presentations all the time which means immediately like crowdsource this somehow well one of one of the things that i've been working on that i'd you know like to make available if if you'd like is this idea of podcast playlists so for the specific ideas being able to to have here's jerry talking about his his playlist and being able to do a quick introduction to each one of them but on a mobile device being able to you know just to go through you know them in any order that you'd like and so maybe this would be a fun exercise jerry if you've got a list of two or three or four how many how many podcasts that you have let me put plug it in and then and then let's let's play with it because i think to your point about addressability you know having some method of being able to organize all of this unstructured data and make it easily you know you know expose it as part of that whole discovery process that's you know that that's one of the biggest challenges right now agreed and so there's a couple things kept in mind here one is that one item is playlist another one is sort of tagging of the material so that it can be found in different ways i've done and i don't use Spotify but i use YouTube intensively so i've got a bunch of my own playlist of videos that i've recorded so i have a playlist i call snip which is all about the global financial crisis of 2008 2009 i have a playlist about how trust is cheaper than control and that falls under other play or next to a whole bunch of other playlists i have around this design from trust idea i have and so each of these is an intentionally architected and i've got several playlists around trump i did i did one a week i did one i did one a week after the 2016 election that i really like it was like oh my god i got this wrong what happened who got it right what are the lessons here i did another one on trump later going into the this last electoral cycle but i'm not using hashtags much on these i'm only in youtube i'm sort of i'm sort of underusing the technologies we have at hand so i'd love to know more about what you built and how to apply it and how to use it across media and across you know other other stuff that'd be great what one of the big things one of the big apps that i think is really becoming popular is frame mod i frame i o and and what the thing that i think really makes it interesting is that you're able to have a group of people looking at a video and being able to tag different moments in the in the timeline and be able to attach attach you know their notes to it i think this is super interesting because you can then create you can just then have a second database of b-roll so from all of the videos that you're curating already being able to to pull out the you know the quotes like the statistics the key moments of that and then make that available to this larger universe of youtube creators for them to be able to insert real facts into whatever videos that they're creating and so that's great say more because i'm not very aware of frame having used it at all and love things like this so so so when you've got a video of any any kind being able to either look at it as a watch party as just kind of like a descendant interested observer of it and just having questions along the way and being able to see what others have the breadcrumbs that other people have left before and being able to click on that scene and be able to to to go to richer data about you know the context of that video so that that that's that's one potential use another one is being able to to be able to ingest these these very popular videos these interviews these videos that are coming in through the news cycle and having kind of working groups just like we did in the the early internet days of these smaller groups who are specializing in these areas and have an interest in making sure that you know that that you know mistrust aren't allowed to to you know to to spread unchecked and so and so a tool for them to be able to go through you know we've got this uh you know this this fact-checking session you know at that 6 p.m. yeah and and you know all the tools are there so so that i think i think a key piece of this is onboarding how do we make it as easy as possible for someone who shares our common interest in in in doing something anything other than just passively waiting for the world to burn right to something something more constructive where we're able to you know we don't have to become part of uh you know devote the rest of our lives or you know commit to make this enormous commitment but just a half hour yeah is frame like hypothesis for videos or what what's it like uh frame that i owe is a little bit like the old macro media uh or not not macro media but the old uh uh feralon you know a sound recorder you know back in the day you had the you know you know using the tracks and whatnot yeah but but it's just updated for for online video and and so you're able to you know you're watching the video you hit the space bar and it pauses the video and allows you to type in your comments at that moment like i i need to zoom in more on this or you know can we you know i i don't like the way i look can you you know can you can you get rid of this so it's made it's made just for a collaboration over production of videos so that so that the client can connect back to the video producer and say fix this do that that's the main purpose of it main purpose okay it's got some nice outflip you know integration with the different you know premiere and the different pieces and as such there is a cost associated with it which is why it would be fun to convince the founders and the runners of this thing to create a public side to it for the purposes you just described i like that idea and let them make great money sell you know they get a lot more publicity attention for it so they'd probably get more clients paying them to use it privately you pay for privacy and you pay for for using it with your clients to edit the videos or whatever but then in the public view use it as fact checking and markup and co-thinking that sounds brilliant well they were you they were providing free licenses during the height of last year so so their minds are already kind of predisposed this way so super interesting thank you and i didn't know about them i i've seen sort of client-facing sites that like you mark up art copy and all that kind of stuff and so forth but i don't remember seeing one for videos amazing like when you start a company now like you pay by the month for everything right and if you're going to get the adobe suite oh that's a lot of money and then you know and then this and then that and pretty much that pretty soon there's like this incredible overhead over every desk i i that that's a topic for another day i dream of a day when when the average person only needs to worry about two applications i mean i mean you you've been around you know for a long time i've been around from the early you know days when nbi was a word processor and and uh you know the uh you know i got started with you know vax vms but i mean you know we are not mic microsoft and the other companies are doing us all a disservice by making us learn you know putting force in us through this huge cognitive you know hurdle of what the heck is updated with this application that i used to love i remember my first word processor i worked at mobile before it was exxon mobile and the secretaries had wangs oh yeah and i was like who got to go there and so i learned how to use the wangs and i i had an ibm terminal on my desk a 3270 terminal and i learned i was busy coding stuff in ispf or something like that which was a system that let you let you do sort of cascading menus or something i don't remember exactly but but i was busy doing that kind of stuff back in the day do you remember the first word processor you ever run into or judy no i didn't have a computer till the 90s that's okay but you at some point at some point you hit a word processor there right i don't think now i had a type writer yeah i'm of a similar generation i know i took a typewriter with me to college yeah i mean carried it on to graduate school and it was in late undergraduate and then graduate school that we had things like wang calculators that could use for the science calculations but we were still basically typing on typewriters a long time yeah and in grad school my first year in grad school i had an apple 2 plus my second year i bought the first apple macintosh so i had a macintosh classic which i bought through pen through the pen to the apple university consortium i my first computer was a work computer right you know i was in graduate school i didn't have a lot of money we weren't really using computers i was carrying decks of cards over to the computing center oh wow i mean well that was 50 years ago really i mean it was 70 69 to 76 that was a long time ago so i was in the days of carrying literally punched decks of cards over to the computing center to run models on crystal structures and stuff like that and so i first encountered a computer in a work setting actually i first encountered in the work setting things like really good wang calculators and other things of that order um but they weren't even that readily available and god forbid you drop your deck oh drop the deck was disaster that's why you had in pencil you had to mark page number you know you had to write them up but before you before you took actually i went for the they're assembled in this box and the box is taped on four sides okay so it would be pretty hard for them to break out of the box even if i dropped that sucker double security only a couple blocks to the computer building from the camera but but i'm trying to think when i got my first personal computer i'm sure it was a work computer not a home computer but probably not too far apart yeah remember let's see it must have been probably a decade later i know i had a computer by the mid to late 70s but i went to 3 m in 76 so it was probably after that because i actually went there in 76 and i had a couple promotions that didn't require computers that were working at the desk so the good old days probably in the 80s talking about this has there ever been anything where you can hand write onto like a surface and it would put it on the computer yeah that's what i've always dreamed of because that's the only way i can write is with a pen and a piece of paper and i've wound up writing it and then redictating it in so this is what i'm using right now to do that so so most most everything that i do is you know you've got a document and and i'm writing on on the document so i can put diagrams whatever it's all in pdf format but uh but the idea is is i don't want i'm trying to wean myself away from all those applications i know how to use them but but um drawing drawing i think helps me think about what i'm what i'm actually putting down whereas back in the days of microsoft you spend so much time just trying to type and transcribe what was going on completely different part of your brain there's a bunch of apps of apps within apple i mean i got an apple pencil because you can use it as a stylus and you can draw on your tablet and it it goes in as script but can be transcribed into text and so it's an automatic and a fairly easy conversion does digital paper does that device also do handwriting recognition or just annotation um natively it does not but but i've got a workflow so that you know i'm using dropbox so anytime someone has a i've got an associate that also has a digital paper so we're testing this idea of of what does a remote virtual assistant look like so that if we're all like kind of collecting this information how can i be taking all of the random notes that they may be you know writing over the course of a day and how do we take that that information and we ingest it and then structure it so that they're able to come back to it later on so that they're just focused on this this notion of okay i'm just writing writing writing as it comes in and there's a completely different process to organize that information so that i don't i don't lose information you know or pieces of paper so stacey just just look for handwriting recognition um just google that or go to youtube and i don't know that i have the money to invest in something like that right now but i was curious because i've mentioned it and a lot of times people have mentioned it to or in technology that like nobody would want that and i'm like well somebody would because here i am exactly exactly i think the ipad pro is going in that direction i think that that some of the mobile phones could be but i think ipad pro is probably going to be the low the first one to really do several of those lines and to get back to the other thing that brian was saying of course it's different because i technology parts over my head but one of the things that i've always dreamed about is this idea of watching those short videos that you're talking about jerry but then having a group discuss the video right and i like that separation from the subject of the video too i think that also helps to get more moderate minds working together and possibly the with a feature where they could write in or probably you know be invited to share their opinion you know like sort of a what do you think is a question we don't ask enough and the feature that brian mentioned a little while ago watch parties is basically that uh and that it's most passive at its basics it's just like we all play the same video at the same time and we happen to be around and maybe there's a chat function back and forth but we're not really annotating the video or nothing we do is attached to the video itself but once you start doing like frame io kind of stuff then it is and you can be in and you can get into that instead of putting it in the chat we could actually stop and have a conversation that'd be awesome and that that's pretty easy with the watch party kind of technology that already exists so i think netflix does this i think amazon prime has it where you can say watch with with with your friends or something like that all of you have customers yeah yeah everybody's got to be got to be on netflix for example but if you are you and your sister in the next you know in some other city can actually coordinate and then pause and have a snack and then go back and hit resume and you're watching the movie at the same moment that exists in a group like this for the subject of race call the bridge project and all of you are welcome to to to sit in and just watch watch you know what's what's going on here but but it's run by a person that used to be a county commissioner here in denver he's brought in some of his the people that he's worked with in in different cities in law enforcement and you know one of the people that he was work in the military with you know is is a is a black officer who has you know who has really you know been vocal about how his experiences are not what other people may you know may may think about and so and so a lot of this is is about you know interacting with people who are slightly on that right right right leaning side and and exposing them to some of these other thinking's what you know what what you know what looking at news at the news of the day looking at court cases as they evolve i mean all all of these things and and so and so you know one of the observations is that is that if you can build up the trust that that that that one of the things that tends to be double you know initiatives like this is is the idea that that that it's going to be a gotcha type of situation that that we're you're just lying in wait to find someone that lets down their guard and as soon as that happens we're going to expose you for the charlison or the racist hypocrite or whatever you know that you want and and and the trick is is to is to get through the process of humanizing other people realizing that that we are not the you know the the world the universe doesn't revolve around us but that these other people have as much right to you know dignity as you do and and to you know and it just takes time it's just an awful lot of time thank you um so this is really funny because we've kind of gone meta on the topic about how do we encourage people to discuss or enter the videos that might be in the garden um and how do we make that useful how do we build trust how do we annotate them all that kind of stuff it's cool yeah um is there i'd love to sort of take us back to sort of videos or questions or a way to a way to find more of these nuggets any any thoughts on that my my my two cents is i don't know you know jerry you and i are friends on facebook but but i would like to to see if we can get you know stacey jude i don't know if you are on facebook but but maybe start uh you know try out this uh saved collection i'm happy to to to work with you offline but it's but if you are already you know using facebook in whatever capacity i'm on it but fairly intermittently i'm just i'm just saying that that as as a common scaffolding you know where where we can all you know work you know work from like a shared you know experience that that as we are encountering um um content the ability to to click on the the three dot the hamburger menu on every on every post and to save it to a collection oh that's how you do it okay and then specify which collection and it would be like the you know the we you know we you know we call it the uh what did you say garden uh yes um the epiphany garden is kind of the name the name that came out of this morning's conversation we call it the epiphany garden and and uh it it's kind of a of a of a back channel that allows us to to to talk about the link that was shared and the context in which other people are talking about it and and you know just as as a way to start off so that if we're looking for videos if we're looking for example videos it's an easy way to take those videos and then share them with the group and then have them available for discussion so that the next time we have a meeting like this if we've all been using that function um i we can either a assume that everyone's look to that list or b my recommendation is before the meet before the zoom send it out as an email so that we have a everyone is working from the same page you know i'm not talking about like a six amazon six pager here but maybe a one page you know summary of here's what here's what's going on um so i'm starting a group on facebook called epiphany garden brian i just friended you you're very funny terrified and uh okay so so what i will do is i will create a a collection and i will bring um let's see how this is going to work so i've just invited the three of you to it and uh we can see if we can use the shared collection featuring figure this out okay so i'm going to name this epiphany garden for a different reason i also like the idea that gill had of bringing in like younger people to help because we also want to have the generations working together and that's one way to do it they might have suggestions and they could help us jump over to you know different platforms and whatnot and absolutely and also they would probably be attracted to very different media their frame for what is a good video and what is good media is probably really different from mine for example right and the only thing i want to say because i have been thinking about them and i was thinking about this but if we could reach out like i'm sure a lot of people here have connections to like private institutions obviously but if we could reach out to some of the public institutions and draw from that pool of people that would be a good you mean like public universities or what's what are the sorts of things you think yes that's what i mean i mean like instead of harvard and mit how about suny rockland okay absolutely and there's also there's just hundreds of organizations that are kind of in the ogm sphere which i'd love to appeal to and and reach out to so that's a that's a task sort of on the horizon as well um what what horizon questions are most appealing to to the three of you so so i love questions like what happens if we if we lose the need to work to worry about about scarcity and start to have an abundance of some things like how does that change the world that's a that's a really appealing thought exercise to me and it changes things any any ones that appeal to you all sorry i'm uh multi-tasking right now i guess the single word in my mind right now is community if we thought we were the community of the world instead of the community of my block or my neighbors or my church or my school or whatever if we thought of the world as a community with all of earth's inhabitants so not strictly limited only to people as well yeah i have a i have a short video where i talk about the difference between the words ecology and economy and they both have they both share the greek root which is the household and weirdly they both mean the management of the household and interestingly my own little amateur thesis about this is that in economy the household is me and my family's immediate nuclear household like that's what the household is and our job is to act in greedy self-interest alongside all the other households competing for resources because the invisible hand will fix it all blah blah blah and in ecology the household is our pale blue dot is the whole planet and what we have is a mismatch in the size scale nature of the household and and that plays out as tremendous conflict between the two fields because their intentions run counter to each other because if i'm optimizing for me and my nuclear family with no concern for other households and other families then things end badly and if i'm optimizing for the planet often things will end better this ties into michelle's work i really hope you do listen to that um podcast because it really fits perfectly cool love that love that and so what i'm looking for is people saying all these things so that we can point to it and go this this thing over here listen to this watch this exactly so brian i will take some of the links that i've got in my brain now around this topic and i'll drop them into the facebook group we just created fantastic i i invited you to this saved the to the save collection so if you if you have a couple of seconds and we can go through this real quick do you want a screen share um yeah let's let's uh go ahead so um here i'm i'm uh there we go so add add to the collection and boom you click on the biffany garden and presumably refresh it and then here here we have um this link that that that that is shared amongst us and we can like it we can make little comments on it and where did you get the link to add that to the collection was that i'm just i'm just showing it as an example yeah yeah but did that show up next to an article that was in facebook already yes so so the key here is the burger menu yeah if you go to this burger menu right here um i'm going to go ahead and leave the page there we go there's so here we go let's let's take a look at this uh rick steves thing so save it save it to a biffany garden oh thank you okay that that's the part i didn't didn't realize and and by doing this um it it reduces our overall cognitive load because you we don't want to be part of a group where it becomes like work just to go through all the links that people are sharing on on but by putting it into that into that kind of of a collection then we're able to see um you know all the stream of content and then and then selectively comment like which which of these you know need to be making a cut for the next for the next get together sweet that's really great thank you wanting something new every day and i like your approach of using the tools that everybody's in already using like you know use the platforms and the tools that are at hand yeah so at any rate um but uh i i i'm going to need to get going here shortly but um i'm i'm super interested in what you guys are doing here if there's anything at all that i can do to help out i think this is this is a very important type type of initiative and um you know if anyone has any questions or whatever i'm i'm available thanks Brian just meeting you yeah nice to meet you jude awesome to to have this reason and opportunity to connect i really i really enjoy it and jerry i really think sorry i really think you should go ahead with that three minute video as a call and then we have something to work with to you mean the one about what if facebook what if suckerberg had designed facebook for citizens no no no i i thought the idea was to put out this call of what we're looking for the kind of videos that we're looking for yes uh oh so so um do you mean to have another call like this one or do you mean to put out a broader call i mean for you i mean i mean for a short three minute video to explain what we're asking for okay okay sounds good i like how do you envision this framing up as a collect as a process of working together you see it happening essentially on facebook or something like facebook or do you see it having other connection points or well one way is to just drop all drop links and explanations into a google spreadsheet or something like that which is kind of a not a great answer another one which brian just like showed us and taught us and we started is to create a collection on facebook and use facebook's own tools to do that and i don't know whether that's easily exportable or anything like that easier to start that would give us time to then do some other contemplation of something more robust and more easily i don't know more commoncy for lack of a better exactly and you have any suggestions on like the comments that you like the different models i'm very fast at prototyping yeah well two things one is i'm i'm obviously mirroring this in my brain and i'm i'm curating the same sorts of links i'll be adding you know whatever new shows up i'll be sort of doing double entry and putting it in my brain because that's where i started this and also because that it's really fruitful for me to curate there but also one of the participants in open global mind is michael grossman who is the founder of factor at basictr.com and brian if you go to factor.com and you'll find an elegant site that's kind of like a Pinterest or bookmark management or something like that it's intended for sort of community intelligence and he doesn't really have his business model sorted out the code looks really pretty like the site is very professional and he's really he's really really interested in how to turn it into something more powerful more common z more whatever so michael would probably be very interested in a conversation that says hey how do we use factor to build something like this out that could be that could be another interesting t r is that what you said jerry factor fac did they get purchased by pdi software did they i don't think so i thought i heard factor had just been recently purchased by somebody but i that's weird because last i know it's just kind of i i just put it in and this is what i got so what happened um i i got to uh factor has been acquired by pdi software um on the website well that's weird yeah factor.com no oh okay yeah no no oh yeah no oh let's let's try that again i don't think he sold the company i think he's trying to figure out what to do with it okay okay um how do you see what we're talking about here jerry as part of as a subset or how it connects to the generative commons in the largest sense of things um so brian one of the things that came out of some conversations we've had recently in ogm because we started talking about intellectual property rights is this notion of a generative generative commons agreement which would include things like creative commons for copyright and other things for patent or whatever but would also include when you enter this conversational space here's kind of the ground rules or our intentions which are to be very very open not to protect up and lock away all the stuff that we create um and i think i think what we're doing here is a contribution to the generative commons that's the simplest way of thinking about it because when you said what's a more what's a more commonsy way to create the collection instead of facebook's proprietary you know inside the wall tool that's that's exactly what that would head toward but i think we can we can create this i mean if ogm were five years more mature one of them one of the missions of open global mind is to get me out of the brain software and brian i realized you have to leave um and we should wrap the call too but one of the intentions was to get me out of the brain and into something open collaborative collective so that we had we knew exactly where to put all this information because we would be weaving it together in that environment right now right jerry can i read i just put together for another purpose in discussion a couple sentence definition of the generative commons and i read it to you yep the generative commons which i put in quotes was conceived with the hope that together we can generate better outcomes for our future world we believe the generative commons as an open community can engage the knowledge creativity and wisdom of many individuals groups and organizations in our world to enable working together for a better future um i like it a lot with one one caveat which is that i think of the kinds of comments we're talking about as information commons i mean i mean trust in a community is a form of a commons but but when we're talking about the generative commons as a thing here we were i think we were looking at shared at informational assets like wikipedia which is part of the information commons for for sure we were also including connective capacity you know how you would find other people and connect with them as part of it um in order to be generative of commons probably means that as a function or a feature but that's not part of what i'm thinking about as the definition of a generative commons so for me for me it's less about the community for me generative commons isn't a community that we're building but rather the treating of the commons in a generative way and therefore we use these ground rules for ip uh you know sharing for for this and for that okay stacey any thoughts on that yeah no that makes sense i think we're just coming from slightly different viewpoints on the comments i mean when i talk about it to people i talk about it as a way to identify thought leaders to um assemble collective wisdom collective community wisdom on a variety of topics that are linked in whatever ways but i also envisioned it as because of that source base of the information coming in it's a it's a framework that could also springboard direct connections between individuals and organizations because if let's say you've got um OFC or whatever throwing all of their information into that much of which i'm assuming because i haven't actually gone there to look at it right you know it's tagged with source content you know this came from john smith it's in australia or this came from jerry and oregon or judy in minnesota if it's tagged in the right way and married in a trovish kind of way i just made up that adjective right right then it becomes a connective network too so the connections between humans would hopefully be a complete result of a good generative commons but the community thus formed wasn't in the picture when describing the generative commons meaning that information ought to be present and and god willing like like yes yes yes the connections and the relationships would be made and in fact part of the reason to create the generative commons agreement was to make it so that it would be easier to trust everybody else in a project or a conversation that says that it operates under the generative commons agreement right because now we're like oh okay our intentions are clear so we can we you know we can each deal with each other at a higher level of trust which then means we it's easier to form community and and and do stuff but again i was i was not focused on the communities as part of the description but rather the the shared assets and the intention around the co-creation yeah i have to get off too that's okay great week yeah thank you so much this has been great really appreciate it see you all have a good week excellent bye for now yes jc thanks nice to see you judy