 Welcome to Think Tech Hawaii's program. Don't just age, engage. I'm your host, Larry Grimm. And I'm delighted to have you here as we explore the important dimensions of aging, aging and becoming an extraordinary, and having an extraordinary, elderhood in our lives. I was rocked by this decision by the Supreme Court this past week or two weeks to take an assault on the Roe v. Wade law, law of the land, which we have practiced over the past decades. And I am just wondering what's going on? What in the world is happening? And I have asked a good friend of mine and also a very strong active community activist in Kailua, Marion Heidel, to come join me on this program today to look at the role of elders in social justice and seeking justice in our society. And she is consented to do that with me. And hello, Marion, welcome to our program. Well, thank you so much. I'm glad to try to do this. Your effort is well received and well appreciated. So I'd like the viewers to kind of get a chance to know you're a pretty remarkable woman, but I don't expect you to talk about how remarkable you are. But I would like to ask you to share a little bit about your past. Now you have come to be such a strong activist in community and social justice affair. Well, just a little bit of background on me. I was born in Ningpo in East China in 1936. So that makes me 86 years old. Most people think I'm in my sixties or seventies. My father was a medical missionary and we left China in 1948 and I grew up in California and Washington state. I met and married my husband, John Heidel, while he was studying for the ministry in 1962. And we moved that year to Hawaii where he had an internship at Central Union Church as youth minister. Later after finishing seminary, he became chaplain at Punahou School. I had trained to be a medical technologist and worked at that for 10 years. And later as secretary for the student exchange programs at Punahou that were under the Woh International Center. In Hawaii, my social justice involvement has been first in the League of Women Voters and I participated in Martin Luther King Day parades. And then in Family Promise, more recently, 2006, I think it began a program for transitional housing for families and it operated first through the coalition of the Windward churches and then expanded to Honolulu churches. And I was kind of the head of that in my church, Christchurch Uniting. And then finally, our church also was one of the first churches to join in the work of faith action for community equity, faith action for short. And it operates on the principle beginning with the folks in the churches and what they feel is the situation in the community that needs to be changed or fixed. And from there, you go on to generally have to go to the government and make some changes through them. For instance, the first thing, oh, okay, go ahead. No, thanks, Mary. That is a really good overview. And I'd like to highlight that the motivation that you have for being involved has been from a deeply rooted in your past and in your faith experience, it seems to me. Talk about your motivation just a little bit. Part of what I do in this program is present to the viewers wonderful examples and models of extraordinary elderhood. And I consider you to be an extraordinary elder. And I wondered if you just share a little bit more about how you're motivated to fall through your life to be involved in these issues. Well, I don't feel, for one thing, I don't feel my age physically, but I also emotionally and because I feel like it's my responsibility. We in Christianity are supposed to be helping to create the quote, kingdom of God here on earth. At least that's what I believe. And so for me, that means joining to work with others on social issues that are unjust. And for those who are poor, hungry, houseless, those in prison and those who lack opportunity and also taking care of our planet. And so I just feel like that's a responsibility I have, both personally and I'm sure because of my feeling like this is what God wants me to be doing. Well, that sure takes you out of any kind of comfort zone, I would think, and helps you engage, moves you to engage the powers that be. It can at least and to do so in a loving and caring way with for others. And I couldn't help but think as you were talking about speaking the kingdom of God and bringing it about here on earth, how some evangelicals will say the same thing basically as their motivation, but there would be a very different agenda. And I'm very, very concerned about that we come to this building, kingdom building in the world with such totally different agendas, but with an idea, the same basic motivation. Have you ever given some thought to that? This was kind of a complex question. Oh my. Well, I don't like to say what all evangelicals do or think, I mean, I know I probably have my own mistaken ideas, but I think that we do need to work through our communities and the people in them and in government and the city and various groups that we need to work through them to change the things that are generally have caused problems. It puts a challenge to the church, the church universal, that if we could get together and talk over some of these separate things that separate us, we might have some interesting approaches to collaborating in the future. But so, Mary, and you've been involved through Christ Church uniting disciples and Presbyterians, Kailua, you've been involved in faith, the faith action for community equity what have been some of the most fulfilling engagements that you've done that you feel personal investment that you feel like you've really accomplished something important? Well, I think the idea of how they started where they start at the ground level where the people are and they find out what is bothering them in the community. And so, for instance, the first things they did was the people, the churches who were over in on the other side of the hill from Kailua, Kalihi in that area, they didn't have any bus stops with covers over them. So they had to sit in the rain or wait in the rain. And so that was one of the first things that they thought about needed to be done and they got it done. The city built some bus stops that were covered in areas where a lot of people have to wait for the bus. Another thing that they did was oh, in the same kind of area, I guess, in Kalihi area of Honolulu was they needed, they had a lot of crime going on. And so they just needed to have, they thought a few more policemen present to watch out for it. And so they talked to the, I guess to the police department and made that happen. And so you're saying this is some of the action of FACE, a base? Right, well, that stands for Faith Action for Community Equity. And we're trying to make things fairer for everybody and lift the level. And so now, what the important things are, that they have a housing committee that's working on housing for houseless, houseless, excuse me, and for low income and affordable housing up through the median, Erika income. There's a committee on environment, taking care of the environment. And there's a committee that's working on social justice for the criminals. And they've been really strong on putting forth the cash bail law. Which may have some things to be tweaked, but in all that area, those areas particularly, oh, well in long-term care, they've worked on that since the beginning actually. So I've been on the steering committee and primarily my role has, if I can't come up with good solutions for things, is at least to get the word out to my church folks. And so that's what they like about me right now, I guess. They would probably like me to be more active on a committee, but they have me to send the word to the people in my church to see if we can get more involved. And you're excellent at that. You do such a good job of recruiting and engaging people. I'm curious about this, Marion, because I'm interested in elders and providing extraordinary elderhood for people. How would you say this is, your approach to justice has changed over the years and how is it different, particularly, how is it different now in your elderhood years as it was from your adulthood years, say in your 40s or 50s? What has happened in you that's different and that comes into the, that you bring to the table now? Well, like I said, I started with your legal women voters because I admired some older people who were doing things like putting out a booklet on the candidates, you know, so all the candidates that were running for something. So you'd know something about who were doing that. Well, and so I suppose what I was actively doing more then than I am now is being on a committee that, because the league always studies something before they make any pronouncements or promote anything. And so I think I was, one of the ones I was on had to do with the nuclear weapons and stuff like that. And so I did more studying at that time and I probably did more marching and demonstrations and raids then than I do now, although I still go out sometimes. But, and then as far as family promise and fake action goes, I've probably, you know, I'm not, well, family promise has changed so that there isn't much I can do right now, but at the time I was one of two people who were coordinators of my church and kind of, you know, recruited the people to do the meals and to stay overnight with the families and stayed in our church, that kind of thing. I wasn't, yeah. And for fake action, I'm not sitting on any committee now, but I'm still, you know, and the other thing is, I don't do it enough, but is writing testimony, you know, on a law, which is something older people can do now as long as they feel like they have their wits about them can call, they can write letters, they don't have to go online, but a lot of elders are learning to go online and can easily send, you know, their program or com. I noticed when you talked about the women's, League of Women Voters. League of Women Voters, that you mentioned that there were some older people that put together this booklet and that sort of inspired you. You're in that position now. You are the one who inspires and you are the one who, you are one among many who are able to say to envision, set a vision out for younger people. Do you feel that? Do you feel that operating with you and some other elders in your group and your circle of influence? Well, you know, I don't know whether I have done anything to do with it, you know, other than being present, but as far as faith action goes, if you notice now, the staff and all are much younger people and the people who are on the committees are younger people. And I don't know how many of them are actually members of some church, but like faith action started with church groups. Now we have other young people that may not necessarily be in the church, but in the community, but who have come in to operate faith action. I saw a cartoon on Facebook that I really liked. It was a cartoon of a 30-something woman standing in front of a perfume salesperson and saying, for Mother's Day, what my mother wants is that her activism of long ago is not worth nothing. And I thought, you know, that's so true. I felt the same way when, again, when the Litos writing and the assault on Roe v. Wade started, has come out by the Supreme Court, been leaked out. I thought, has all of our work been for nothing? I was president of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice in Colorado for three years. And we worked very hard with Planned Parenthood to gather leaders of faith communities together to learn, to advocate, to bear testimony to a society in which women, productive rights, rights for productive health care were protected. And those are rights already given in my mind that don't come from any constitution. So that really grabbed me because I thought, sometimes I have that sense of, what is this world coming to? All the efforts we've made with nuclear disarmament, all the efforts we've made to speak on behalf of nonviolent resistance on change, all the efforts to social, a society that is just, not only in America, but throughout the world, a global society, all of that feels as though it's suddenly slipped away. What's happened to, I have another friend who said he was naive, thought the Supreme Court was impartial and not political. And now he sees that that's not at all true. Are you feeling some frustrations like that? Yes, although, you know, we watched a couple of things on the American experience just recently. One was on the, it was called Stonewall and it was about the LGBT explosion they had. Yeah, I mean a demonstration that they had years ago in New York. And then recently we just watched the one about the Chinese Exclusion Act. Well, I think we've grown a lot beyond that. And so it, you know, people say that we'll, because you're older, you have a lot of wisdom. Well, I wouldn't say that we have wisdom that and the young people don't. But I do hope we are, we do have memories of what things were before. And I see things in a lot of the ways changing for the better. Although we still have, you know, another crowd of people in the States who don't believe the way or act the way I would, you know, would want them to. But I think older people, well, younger people can see new ways of enacting change and not doing things just the way we used to. And so they need our support. But many of us over the years have developed morals and ethics and devotion to efforts that improve the community. So we can be mentors and examples of what humans can be and what institutions should change. And like I say, you know, even if you have to stay home, you can influence that by kind of testimony you send. Okay, here's a question that would have come from a viewer. Must say this question comes from an elder person like yourself who is not involved. And it says, must I have a solution before I confront social problems that are upsetting me? Oh, I don't, no, I don't think that's the case at all. I, if you get involved in the question and seek out the people who are dealing with it and they are both elders and young people, then you know, you will, one thing, you'll educate yourself. You'll learn of other possibilities and you'll see that you're building a group of people that can work on that and try to make some change. So I think, no, I don't think you have to have a solution. I think you just need to have a willingness to learn and to think about it and maybe bring up your objections or the things you don't think will work and see the possibilities that other folks come up with. Excellent, and I'm blocking on her name, but the anthropologist, a great anthropologist who was in China, who said, never doubt that a small group of common, of people sharing a common view or a common idea can change the world. It's the only thing that has Margaret Mead said that. Margaret Mead, yeah. One of my favorite reminders that when people of, excuse me, common ideas get together, they do start to change the world and it doesn't have to be 100% of the population that agrees. Actually change begins to occur with 5% of agreement and then 20% of agreement kind of solidifies things, actually in terms of social change. So it's very much a group process that you're touting here and saying that we can become involved in. So would you say it? You still feel as though you're getting out of your comfort zone or have you settled into an ice comfort zone that you can just watch from the fringe? I don't think I'll ever be comfortable watching from the fringe, I'll feel guilty and that's not comfortable. I guess you can see that's not comfortable, but I do, I think I don't feel real comfortable having to speak up and give solutions and things like that. It's even difficult for me to talk to you like this because I don't talk off the cuff very well. But I certainly, and it's difficult for me to talk to people who have an opposite view from me and especially if they sound very negative about things. And if they, well, I'll be very frank, it's really difficult to talk to people who think Trump is wonderful and they come at you with all these facts that they say are facts, but I don't think they're facts, and I don't know quite how to talk back. But so that's a comfort zone that I don't have. Yeah, I think you're absolutely on target with many of us who, and we do, all of us go into our own echo chambers with each other, but one of the challenges, as I said, as we started this conversation about the church universal, how do we engage within the body of Christ or within the church or within faith communities universal when we have faith, people have drawn a faith conviction to pursue something different. And certainly in the advocacy for Trump and his white nationalism is not something I wanna pursue and we'll not do that with anybody, but we've got to do some kind of dialogue around these issues within the church itself. It seems to me that is a big challenge. Yeah. I think the church, the only way they can handle it is be good if they have a pastor that fosters sharing doubts and interaction and so forth. But also people within the congregation can kind of try to have a presence that says, I wanna hear your point of view. I wanna try to understand that as well as express my point of view and see where we can find some comment down. Yes. Diversity is- That goes for theology as well as social justice issues. I think you're absolutely right. Learning to talk to people who are so adamant about something that is very difficult and but I think we have to try. Good point, very good point. And that goes for both sides because someone who differs with me in terms of the vision of the outcome would feel as though I have the same sort of erroneous ideas and approach. So yeah, we do, it really takes a lot of help and effort I think to be guided into a dialogue like that. Marion, thank you so much. Is there one last word you wanna give to an elder out there who's listening to us who wants to get involved and not sure how to do it, who has a passion but not sure what to do with that passion? Well, just let it be known to someone, you know, because they can probably also point you to other people that you can talk to. But I think I hope that people will still feel still feel like that their ideas are good, that their morals and ethics are something to share and that what they say and do makes a difference. Like I said, when I was younger, I really admired these older people that were involved in social justice issues and politics and voting and all that sort of thing and it made a difference to me. And it's why you're here on this program. Marion, thank you so very, very much. And again, I do admire you and your abilities and your selflessness in this pursuit and the faith from which you are motivated to see the realm and come to being on earth. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Don't just age and gage. Don't just age and gage is on, I think, Hawaii every two weeks, Tuesday at two o'clock, Hawaii time, come back in two weeks and join me again. And while you're on the webpage here, the website, touch that donate button and give a quarter or a quarter of a hundred dollars. Give 25 bucks or give a hundred dollars or maybe the thousand that you've got over there in your pantry waiting to be put on some kind of good, strong community action concern. 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