 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. I am Pananjoy Gohar Thakurtha. What we are going to discuss today is the pernicious impact that social media has had in the recent past. Now not everything about the social media is bad, far from it but the fact is, over the last 12 months or thereabouts at least 30 people, some would say more than 30 people have died, have been killed, they have been killed by lynch mobs, they have been killed because there have been rumors that children are being kidnapped, that there are sexual predators, that people are killing cows. So we see in India today the ugly side of the social media, the ugly side of WhatsApp, of Facebook and Twitter. To discuss this issue, I am very happy to welcome Mishi Chaudhary. She is a lawyer based in New York and in New Delhi, currently the legal director of the Software Freedom Law Center in New York and a digital rights activist. Thank you so much Mishi for coming here with us. He is Prabhupura Kaisthok. He is also the president of the Free Software Movement of India besides being editor at NewsClick. Thank you Prabhupura. Mishi, on the 5th of July the Union Minister for Information Technology Ravishankar Prasad, he says that we don't want to read into everybody's messages but if in certain parts of the country hundreds of thousands of these messages are being transmitted then something is wrong and he writes to and he tells WhatsApp that this is not rocket science, you can identify this, you can identify using technology by applying technology. Who are these people who are circulating these, mass circulating these messages? Sure enough WhatsApp replies very very promptly to the minister and said yes we'll use machine learning, we'll identify what is happening and this is very very important. I mean remember that India has over 200 million users of WhatsApp and in fact it's the biggest market for WhatsApp. Your reactions, your comments. So I think in addition to that Facebook the parent company of WhatsApp has also announced this crowd-sourcing campaign, $50,000 for anyone who comes up and helps them with the solution to find this. That's great, you throw money at a problem and you try to say machine learning will solve everything like Mr. Zuckerberg in his television appearances in the hearings in the US Congress tried to say for technology everything can be solved by more technology which is usually the response of tech companies. In the current WhatsApp case so one of the very simple low-hanging fruit is that in messaging apps you can create a group and you can add as many members to those groups as you like without asking for their permission. A strategy or at least a tactic used in a very widespread fashion by a lot of trolls. So in India for example a lot of prominent journalists are added to these groups without their permissions then pictures of their close ones like their wives or their daughters are put up, they are doxxed and then profanities and threats of rape and obnoxious things they would say. In fact recently a person has been arrested who claimed he was a part of the Bharati Janta Party. The BJP obviously promptly disowned him but he's actually been arrested. I mean it's the first case of its kind in India but I'm sure there are dozens of cases that nobody's punished, yes. Right and this so they add them to these groups and there is no way to exit each time they exit it becomes a whack-a-mole game. So a simple thing which a lot of civil society organizations ask WhatsApp this is not a feature this is a bug why don't you fix it? It's very simple if I want to be added to a group I should be asked my permission to be added to the group. No response whatsoever. Telegram and signal have responded. Now why I'm telling you this is because this leads and tells us what is behind all of this. Okay I'm stopping you here. I'm going to ask Pravee to react to what he said and maybe you can add something because Ravishankar Prasad says we welcome Facebook, we welcome Twitter, we welcome WhatsApp. You must also make your work or make your platforms commercially successful exact words used but and I quote the minister you must be accountable, responsible, vigilant and WhatsApp says we care deeply about people's safety and said yes we are working with Indian researchers we'll run public safety campaigns, we'll launch a new label in India to help identify messages that are forwarded against messages written by somebody known do you think any of this will have any effect or these are just noises being made to placate the government. Let's put it this way the first is Mr. Ravishankar Prasad making these noises to placate the people while the problems are elsewhere. The issue is not that we are having lynchings because there's a problem with WhatsApp of course what to do with social media. I'll come to that later but the fundamental reason why you have lynchings is because the law and order machinery has been complicit in these lynchings they have not taken action for the last four years cow related lynchings have been going on victims have been cases have been filed against victims or victims families even Akhla even today his family was killed in Dadri as you know his family is suffering the consequences of fraud false cases. So what the basic issue is that you create a climate of this kind but the law and order machinery does not act. Let's understand one thing evidence is forthcoming because videos are available messages are available. So investigation is actually easier if you have electronic train which this does leave you. So the question is yes preventing may be more of a problem we'll come to that but investigation certainly is much easier with all of this and the fact that nothing is happening on the ground on in this investigations and punishment is really the crux of the problem. So so probid what you're saying here is that yes the don't kill the messenger so the problem is the people who you know are spreading this poison or this heat messages through society and the authorities concern the law enforcing authorities the governments if they're at best turning a blind eye or they are downright complicit in this kind of it. Let's put this as we know the troll troll brigade has been most active with the BJP it has the most organized WhatsApp groups in the country in each election we have seen thousands of WhatsApp groups and we've also seen this vicious campaign trolling right wing propaganda fraud or fake news fraud news what you would call it propaganda hatred this is what has been promoted by the RSS and the BJP. Now that it is spreading from their targets into much more general population in terms of the child lifting cases now they're certainly talking about that WhatsApp and where their own external affairs minister is getting trolled. Now as Bishi said that this is a very important point a simple feature just takes two minutes to really implement I'm sorry you know that technologically this is about the easiest thing you can do that don't put me into a group without my consent this should be a fundamental law that this cannot be done and informed consent for participation should be at least a basic feature of any software that you put into the space. But then the businesses who want to use WhatsApp platforms to target the various users they will not be able to talk and this is related to again an advertising revenue because of which the WhatsApp founders both Brian Acton and Jan Kuhn left Facebook and exited from the board of the parent company Facebook because there's a difference in how to monetize data. Now if Facebook actually fixed this little feature then the future part in the future and the commercial potential would get what should I say diminished. It's not going to even happen. So Parujayan this is I think the most important point that unfortunately the business model of Google Facebook all this big digital monopolies is fixed to what would be called virality and therefore they if they want to monetize which is what they really want that's a business model if they want to monetize they want the ability to spread like a virus therefore the virality and this is why this is called surveillance capitalism because this is the part of what this problem is. Capturing the behavior this said these are behavior capturing platforms. You behave and I capture that that behavior and then I make a trail out of it and then I'm able to sell psychographic profiles of people and that's why the more you interact with the platform the better it is for the companies who are running. If you stop interacting with the platform which Praveel calls virality of this platform then there's not enough behavior for me to capture to build profiles and be able to sell it whether it is for ad revenue or to a political party or for commercial gain. Now Mishi the point that Praveel made what you do when the purveyors of fake news the trolls the guys who are spreading this hatred and poison what you do when you find that the very people at the top in this case of India the prime minister of India they are following these guys and they're not unfollowing quote-unquote these same guys even after there is a sufficient amount of evidence that these people are spreading false information disinformation fake news hate speech what you do when a section or maybe a large section of the ruling dispensation is not just turning a blind eye but appears to be complicit. Well this also tells us that India is actually a lot of times a microcosm of how all these platforms are being used in the rest of the world. Things have happened in India much faster and much earlier than the rest of the world. The 2014 elections taught a lot about use and misuse of these platforms which at that time when people like us would talk nobody would pay attention which played out in the 2016 US elections that when the people themselves who are supposedly to be taking care of it or watching or keeping a check on all of this are also complicit there's a difference between of course political parties and the governments and from what we hear there's not just one political party but everybody is now trying to monetize these platforms for their own election gains. The whole exposure about Cambridge Analytica the deposition by Mark Zuckerberg where he was asked would you like to tell us which hotel you stayed in how much you've paid for that hotel would you like to tell us who are the people you sent messages to over the last couple of weeks and sure enough he kept quiet but the whole idea was it was clearly told to him that look what you don't want to disclose to us you are mining that data from large numbers. My favorite thing to say is when Mark Zuckerberg bought his new house before the two daughters were born and his wife because he wanted to have a family he spent 30 million dollars buying every house next to his house because they wanted more privacy. Privacy is very good for yourself very bad when it comes to general public double standards because I wouldn't even bother about talking double standards I'm talking about essentially private greed that is what militates against privacy because if you want to get money out of other people's data then obviously you are against privacy in terms of what Facebook shall see of you. You see it's also very interesting a lot of this platform Facebook to Google are very strongly because it's so-called government intrusion of course they have the links with the NSA and so on that we know by now but they will always fight for that this should be kept out of government regulations but it should be available to us and this is because the business model is entirely built on private surveillance or surveillance by private big capital. I think as long as the ad revenue is tied up with the data and collecting and monetizing data then anything what we are going to talk about is just going to be some kind of a lip service because if your business model is about I collect data and then I build profiles and then I'm able to sell them then anything else is just going to be seen as some noises which are made. You know these are today among the biggest corporations on the planet. The number of users of Facebook in India according to certain estimates have gone up from 136 million in 2015 to over 220 million as we speak. That is quote unquote the potential audience of Facebook in India is bigger than that of the United States and this number is slated or estimated or projected to grow by to touch almost 300 million by 2022. So when you look at India the government of India and Facebook what does this tell you what I mean what does the ordinary citizen who I mean there's an entire generation of people who for them there's no newspaper there's no radio there's no television it's Facebook it's WhatsApp. Yes and so China is off limits to Facebook. So obviously all energies are going to be concentrated on India. That's why the entire Free Basics rigmarole where they tried to tell how much charity they were doing for the poor Indians and the elitists were actually deprived. And huge advertisements to tell them how they were charitable. So what the nation would do with the reliance and Facebook. So yes the market is important that's why so much of the concentration is being is placed on India when you ask about how do we see government and Facebook in that regard. So we so when the Cambridge Analytica thing happened so there are 87 million people's data which was linked by Facebook 5.5 lakhs I would use the other I will use the different system of Indian users data was also leaked in that and what happens in that one was that each time somebody's data was leaked their friend circles data was also leaked. That's why even if you have small access to smaller number but in large terms you are also getting access to their friends and their likes. What happens March in March of this year we hear that Métis in its anger has sent a notice we will send a notice to Facebook you should come and respond. Facebook says we are very sorry. And Métis will take care of it. For the benefit of our viewers Métis is a Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology. Earlier it was a department so we used to call it deity and now it's Métis. Deity to mighty. Good one. So the send a very stern notice give us a response we will do something. Facebook says we are very sorry. We are looking into it privacy is very important data security is very important. Public say your data is most important we are going to keep it secure. And Mr Zuckerberg says that in the US Congress hearings that not only are the midterm US elections of this year important but they are going to be large very important elections in India next year and in Brazil and we are going to do everything to make sure those elections go smoothly. What do you mean smoothly? And there are things like I exactly so when 2014 elections happened I was very I was intrigued that Facebook was going around. First they wanted the Obama like I voted button but that didn't work in India because Indians we get ink. Yeah that's right you get it. People started taking selfies but they wanted to say 164 Lok Sabha seeds will be impacted by use of social media. That's a large number it's not a small number. Let's look at it what does it really have what's really happening. Cambridge Analytica showed us that elections can be modified as it were influenced. Well whatever word you want. Manipulated. Manipulated modified whatever can be done through social media specifically Google and Facebook are the most powerful ones. Google search engine and Facebook because of its obviously because people are immersed in Facebook. Their lives are now on Facebook. So the base issue was that Cambridge Analytica was getting some data only a partial set of this data and using it for targeted election campaigning and switching shall we say a small number of voters percentage is 2 to 4% from one side to the other. This is called targeted campaign which is micro targeting which is also what's done in terms of advertising. This is the edge Google and Facebook have over say newspapers or television. Now what is the charge that Cambridge Analytica did it but what about Facebook what about Google. So the effect of what we are really talking about is people are saying you great Facebook if you do it it's still OK. You know after the big God you know the God of Facebook has done it is OK but Cambridge Analytica should not do it. So you have shared your data with Cambridge Analytica that is the original sin. Well in my view and I'm sure it misses the original sin is the model itself which is Facebook and Facebook and Google or any of these digital monopolies being able to influence something. The last point I would like to make you see which is what the government says. For instance Mr. As you know the IT minister Ravi Shankar Prasad made all this knows Mr. Zuckerberg. This is the IT minister speaking. Well Mr. Zuckerberg didn't really respond. Didn't come and he didn't really heed the IT minister but he kept quiet after that. I mean the IT minister. Let's understand one thing that's happening that when a new media comes for a lot of people in India the electronic media is new. They're reaching it only through their now through their cell phones. So there is this belief that if news comes in my platform like this it has to be true. And if you remember Paranjaya baby you were young enough to remember this. When we were young we were told if it was printed it must be true. In Bengali there is also a there was a word. There was a sentence which is Chapar Aukkori Lekha. So it is actually as if it's written in stone. Of course Ananda Bazar Putrika did that for the Bengalis. We realize the Chapar Aukkori could be could be wrong. I'm going to come back to you. You're going to have the last word but probably you know Facebook's global manager of politics and government outreach Ms. K.T. Habat. She recently had a meeting with the chief election commissioner Mr. O.P. Rabat. And she said that Facebook would track these false campaigns. There would be some sort of automatic fact checking mechanisms. Self verification. How seriously do you take her reported sort of assurances? Especially since the next general elections in India scheduled for April, May of 2019. And where do you see what's going to happen in the next eight months or thereabouts? You know I have worked for a large part of my life on what I call heuristics. What are called you know statistical techniques for basically my professional work. Okay let me tell you something. All these techniques cannot distinguish between what is fake and what is not. It's a fundamental issue that this is something which human beings cannot do it. Computers learning from us is not going to be able to do it. So I think this is basically just soothing noises to protect their business empires. And we are willing to be convinced because we are vested interest in willing to be convinced. Today to shut down Facebook as it stands is going to be difficult. The fundamental issue the world has to address. How do we control digital monopolies of this scale? A. B. That if they are today playing the role of public institutions which they are globally. What is the regulatory control the world has over them? Because fundamentally adding a feature to Facebook's WhatsApp. Is Band-Aid at best. Should be very don't know it is something which should be very simple to do. But what is the law we have in our hands to do that? That's the question. And unfortunately national governments including the government of India is not willing to exercise the law the power of the law it has over these companies because they think they don't want to annoy this big digital monopoly. A. B. I would say a little bit differently. I also think that there is this view of complete control. One of the things which is about the data localization. They would like all data to be stored here. Government of India has can access if required for a legal purpose. What China has done but they otherwise also government of India can access and Sabina or as Facebook we want data for such and such criminal investigation. Sorry they can summon and ask that this is the information we would like actually and please provide it they have the legal power to do it. But they would like now to say no bring all your servers all Indians data has to be stored here. I think that's mostly because there is some extra judicial arm twisting which the governments really want to do with the companies and to collect that data. That means that the companies always can play all sides and say look if we do that then we are also are the people who are going to be getting on the slippery slope and enabling political censorship. Now and that's why they play the masses to say look anytime anyone tries to control us they're trying to restrict your free speech and expression. And on the issue of what do we do with the companies? I will remind we are only in 2018. 2007 is when iPhone was released and all these apps afterwards on mobile have actually blown up. It's only now people have just began to wrap their heads around that what a Frankenstein's monster this actually is. You know there is the law you're a lawyer. There is the issue of ethics. There's what's happening in the globe and these cartel of big players who want to control what you read what you watch what you hear and in the process making all the big bucks. When we move from here in the short run what? A lot. Boku Bucks as they will say. Okay so what can be or should be done in the short term say till the next general elections and the bigger larger problem from it. Well the short term is existing laws. There are there is enough teeth in existing laws to control fake news provided you have the will to implement them. And I don't think the issue is about law in this case. If it is lynching there is both law outside the electronic realm in the physical realm as well as the Indian penal code the criminal procedure code the IT Act and the IT rules are adequate for this if you have the will to do. So as you said earlier there is enough digital trace you're leaving for what you're doing. So in fact it becomes easier to prosecute even if it is more difficult to prevent if you will. So that is one part of it. I think that we have reached a level where we need regulation of global regulation national regulation of this monopolies and fundamentally to me if this public infrastructure which I believe it is then it should actually be in public hands. So how do you implement this? How do you break up this monopolies? If they did it for 18 years. That's a bigger issue. That's not a 2019 issue. 2019 issue is telling the government you have the powers don't fool us in telling us that you don't have the powers you have enough powers exercise them for Christ sake you know and that's what you're not doing. Okay the last word from you. I agree that the larger things whether they are the competition issues or how do we actually view these companies that's not going to be solved by 2019 April or whatever. I do think that they can create a lot of educational awareness about the fact that everything which comes on WhatsApp is not gospel and you don't have to believe in all of that. There isn't any of that awareness campaign going on. The second thing is that more information from independent actors that there is no political party which is not using these platforms to actually impact not only your conscious mind but your unconscious mind also. If you see from the UP elections what we learned was that a lot of voters told us that you know what sometimes I don't believe what's come up but when it's spammed to me 50 times I think maybe there is a grain of truth in all of this. It's propaganda. You repeat that lie a hundred times and then you start believing. So it's traditional techniques only the delivery medium has changed and that should not tell us that everything which we have learned over centuries somehow is now invalid because we've introduced internet in there or phone in there. Those principles still apply and I do believe that this large Twitter sets the narrative now for a lot of things which we discuss also on electronic media or otherwise. That's why it's incumbent upon the users to demand that the companies do something. The government stops beating around the bush and makes a lot of noise and just say OK these are the big issues we have to address and we are otherwise helpless around it and not believe the companies that artificial intelligence machine learning and throw a few other buzzwords and they will solve everything. Alright thank you so much Mishi for coming here giving us your time giving us your views. Prabhi thank you very much for throwing light on what I believe is a very very important issue an issue that concerns the youth of this country concerns all of us and thank you very much for being with us on this program.