 When people see you being so comfortable yourself, they want more of it, and they want to come to you for whatever you're there for. So for me on TikTok, yes, I do a lot with personal branding. I speak about people pleasing. I talk about authenticity, but I'm really willing to share parts of myself. And I think that because I'm willing to be vulnerable, it like writes this very sweet permission slip to my audience that they could do it as well. And I think that feeling, the feeling of being relieved of this pressure makes people want to come back. And the energetic flow just opportunities open. Welcome everyone to the Sevo show. We're doing a Zoom podcast slash impromptu kind of recording. We're recording this just in case, because every time I have a conversation like this and I don't record it, I regret it. So here I am recording it. His name is Justin Truman. He is from the United States of America. I saw him on TikTok and it was an instant follow from the get go. He presents himself well, articulates his thoughts very clearly. And someone that I am already learning from as someone that's been in the TikTok game for over three years, I like learning new things from new people that I come across. And more importantly, collaborate. And that's what we're all about. So Justin, thanks for being here. I'm thrilled to be here. But after that introduction, I feel like I have a lot to live up to. And when a brand, when a personal brand coach says that that intro was great, you know, you're doing well. So there you go. Thank you. Thank you. So everybody listening, I am using a new microphone. I've purchased the DJI microphone. The go road has taken a back seat for now. And I'm also using the iPhone camera as the webcam because that's a now a thing on Zoom, which is cool. So Justin, personal brand coach, what's inspired you to get into this? I think what most inspired me to get into personal branding was this realization that I had really in the last two years, if I'm being honest, of how little space I was taking up in my own life. And for taking up very little space, I done a lot of things. And my sort of high performance persona was really developed at a young age to kind of go unnoticed. You know, I think it, I don't think I know, I was bullied from a really young age because I took dance classes and I came out at 14. And it was sort of an isolating experience. And so to avoid sort of the harsh critique or judgment of others, I just presented a version of myself that could go by sort of unscathed, unseen and tolerated. And it's really exhausting just trying to be tolerated. And you really do have to hide so much of yourself to be unseen. And it just kind of came to a head when I was 30. So so truly within the last two years. And once I started to experience this expansion for myself, which really did come from jumping on TikTok. I knew that I had to help others to try and embrace the same. And so that was sort of what energetically brought me to the place. And then very tactically, I've been a photographer for, oh gosh, 15 years. I'm a trained actor. I've been on Broadway. And I've always been this sort of empathic person. And it just what I do now seems to me that the intersection of all three of those amazing, amazing. And I can relate to the strategic photography comment because I've always loved photography. And that's what was the kind of gateway for me to escape my nine to five as a school teacher, even though I started doing it more as a hobby. Because I finished my degree, I got my permanent job. I'm working for the government. I'm sweet. Let's do some more fun stuff because there's no more study. There's no more risk of not getting paid. And then three years later, I'm out of the system. But going back to yourself, can you explain what a personal brand is and why it is important? Yeah, especially as we're about to enter into 23, I think that personal branding is only becoming more essential. And I don't think that everyone has to purposefully craft a personal brand, but I think it would be ignorant to think you're not already presenting a version of yourself to the world. And I don't think we need to walk around manicuring our physicality or what we're putting out there. But if authenticity, if we take just for granted that authenticity is a performance, whether you are conscious of it or not, and in authenticity is also a performance, we might as well do and be the one that we mean purposefully intentionally. So that's the first step. Who do you intentionally want to be in the world on social? For me, a personal brand then is this strategic doling out of your authenticity with the means of achieving a goal. The goal might be monetary, the goal might be brand awareness, the goal might be just building a community of aligned individuals. So then for me, the personal brand of it all, an image that I'll sometimes use is your personal brand is your megaphone. It's how people hear your message louder, reach the people in the back, reach a wider crowd. Also, megaphones help to amplify only what goes into them. So you can decide what is inclusive and what is inside of your personal brand and what is less visible. And it's not about that that's not important, but honestly, personal branding is also about setting up boundaries. What do you want to include in the narrative that you're sharing? And what don't you? Because I don't believe that we in the world or we on social, especially, deserve your whole heart, your whole story. So why don't you think we deserve the whole story? And there's so many questions coming out of this one. I've got a list, but if we do become our most authentic self online, magic things happen. Why do you think that is? Oh, gosh, so many reasons. I want to say it back, because even that sentence is potent. When we become our most authentic selves online, when we are willing to be seen as an authentic version of self, magic things happen, opportunities open, because unfortunately, it's still novel. This idea of seeing somebody scrolling, because social media has gone through such a journey. We've had the MySpace of it all, Facebook, Instagram, Rain Supreme for a long time, sharing this idyllic self. And I think TikTok really soars because it does really thrive on connection and vulnerability. So it's still magic when you scroll and you find one person or you find a couple of people that you're like, I instantly connected with this person. I feel like I know them and by seeing them do their thing, I feel like I actually know myself more deeply. That's a superpower. That's a skill. I do believe the skill is learnable, but it is something that some come to more naturally than others. So why do magic things happen is when people see you being so comfortably, when people see you being so comfortably yourself, they want more of it. And they want to come to you for whatever you're there for. So for me on TikTok, yes, I do a lot with personal branding. I speak about people pleasing. I talk about authenticity. But I'm really willing to share parts of myself. And I think that because I'm willing to be vulnerable, it writes this very sweet permission slip to my audience that they could do it as well. And I think that feeling, the feeling of being relieved of this pressure makes people want to come back. And the energetic flow just opportunities open. I'm big on the universe. I love it. I think things reveal themselves in the time they're supposed to the way that we even connected felt so organic and real. And so I had to jump at this, which I love. And again, thank you for reaching out because you are also so wonderful. And I think emblematic of a lot of what we're talking about. And then to answer the question you started with too, why don't those people who are scrolling deserve my whole story? Well, it actually has really nothing to do with them and everything to do with me. I always say that if you're willing to pull back the curtain a little bit, that's great, but keep most of you for you. I'm not asking you to deplete your personal bank account on us. You don't owe us that really. And I was on a call yesterday with a client and I was sharing that I love that my audience feels like they know me, but you don't know all of me. And that's okay. I've never meant for you to and I don't really want you to. I hope my star ascends. I would hope that this journey is just, just, just starting. But even if my name becomes more known, there will always be a part of me that you don't know. And that's fine with me. And what's really cool is I feel like I'm building the relationship with my audience that they would honestly respect that. So how do you help your clients develop their personal brand in a nutshell, really? Not requesting a whole spiel about it, even though I like your spiel so far. In a nutshell, to tell the viewers, how do you do it? In a nutshell, I think what I'm best at with my clients is taking the many seemingly disparate parts of themselves, the separate parts of their story, bringing them all together and crafting a cogent and coherent narrative that we then can create compelling content with. Love that. And this segues perfectly. What are the biggest mistakes people make when building their personal brand? Right off the bat, the two that come to mind are habitually just reifying the people. You're fine. I think too, I think the people come to me and they're already habitually reifying those people-pleasing habits they have in life. They don't realize it, but they've constructed a personal brand that is the performed version of self that they've already been doing. So then we got to crack that open and that takes a little bit of work. The other is kind of fascinating is they've actually built something that's pretty great. It's maybe even been running for a while. They've been doing it on social. They have some modicum of success with it, but they have this inherent belief that nobody will care what they have to say, even if they're at 8 million followers, even if they're at 12 million. And then of course people in the beginning of their journey. And I always say, do you care about what you have to say? And most of them say yes. And I say, well, that's interesting to me because if you are afraid that other people won't care, it tells me that you don't care enough in the first place. So what's that about? And then we get into it. So those are the two main... Yeah. And you know, it's when you work with so many people, you find the common denominator. And also at the end of the day, we're just all like people trying to do our best with the resources we have available to us. And we come up with the same sort of error messages on our computers again and again and again as we try to run similar applications. Absolutely. So one kind of concept that I tell my friends or fellow creators, the word influencer. Let's start with the word influencer. To me, the word influencer is the person exclusively in front of the camera. And every time I get on a Zoom call at 9.30 at night, my dogs decide to bark. Guys, sorry. Give me your thoughts on the word influencer. I cannot believe you jumped into my brain so aggressively. I've had this conversation several times over the last few days and I've had a piece of content cooking that I haven't made yet. The word influencer for me is so loaded because people self-title themselves as influencers. They get on social media, maybe they're in front of the camera, maybe they do brand sponsorships. That's fine. I don't believe a person can self-title themselves as an influencer because you as the person don't decide if you have influence. We do. Your audience, the people who follow you, the people who possibly might be influenced by you. So it kills me and it makes me laugh so hard because I'm also not here to denigrate influencers. I think they were the first people who said I can make money with my story and I want to do that and the personal brand was strong with them. But it does make me laugh because for me, the word is almost, for me, the word is going out of style. It feels uncomfortable to me energetically. I would prefer creator. I mean, I don't, do you identify as an influencer? I, so yeah, it really depends on how you put it. I walk down the street and every five minutes someone comes up to me and wants a photo. What does that mean? What does that define as? Is that defined as a celebrity? Is this celebrity also classed as an influencer? I like to think if I was an influencer, the one thing I'd be influencing is doing something you love. If someone said I'm an influencer, I'd ask them, what do you think I influence? And they say, oh, you're popular. That's not an influence. That's just doing something really well for a long period of time and getting a vanity metric awarded to me that has a little blue checkmark along the side of it. That doesn't mean much. And my influence is actually teaching the young ones, the Gen Zs and the Gen Alphas. Do you call them Gen Alphas in the States? I have never heard that, but I love it. So what about Gen Z? Have you heard of Gen Z? We do. Yeah, we do Gen Z, but I don't, I'm going to be so honest. The Gen Z, Gen X, millennial boomer of it all. I don't know the categorizations. I need like somebody could drop a beautiful chart that I keep right off my computer. I'll send something. There's a guy in Australia. He's brilliant. He does all of this and he's got these gorgeous infographics that showcase this. But a Gen Alpha, Gen Alpha is anybody born after 2010. And the last Gen Alpha, the last Gen Alpha will be born in 2025. So we still haven't seen the last of the generation we're currently in. Then after that, God forbid they call Gen Baters. That's a stitch up. The reason why I bring up Gen Generations is I grew up as a millennial. You and I, millennials, I was teaching Gen Z predominantly, the one below us. And then Gen Alpha is starting to be in the mix. They had a slightly different trait. They were more inclined into using digital no matter what. Because 2010, the iPhones and the iPads, I think, were pretty much a thing. So that's all they knew. We grew up with pre-computers. We didn't have mobile phones or cell phones. And now the consuming is super different. The consuming is the kids, Gen Z's, Gen Alpha's, they have all this at their disposal in their palm. So they see influence, influence, quote unquote, all over the place. And that word gets mis-overused, misused, and just plain right wrong in a way. And the original influencers sort of word came to me early Instagram days. That's when I kind of first heard about it properly. And I was like, oh, yeah, you're selling a bracelet. Oh, you're selling a watch. Oh, you're selling beauty skincare products. But what else do you do? If you're just pushing a product, you're just doing it for yourself. What's the legacy that you're leaving behind? If you stop 10 years from now, or everybody spits you out because that's what social media does, what's your play then? Are you back to the nine to five? Is that it? So there's a whole cycle here, my thought process. And it's awesome to talk to you about it because I know you understand. Influences or even creators have a life cycle, just like a sports person does. They get in, they get drafted and they play. Early days, they've got lots of energy, they've got lots of hype, lots of endorsement deals, and they're trying to win the flag or the trophy or the championship. They may win the championship, they may go back to back and they may become the greatest of all time, like MrBeast, for example. But then that's it. It finishes for the majority, for the 99%. And then the new ones come in and it's nonstop. It's a windmill, just like Disney and Hollywood. But it's like, what do we, what do the consumers get out of it? For me, I want to bring in my education. I was an educator for a reason. I want to continue that. So as much as I loved building my TikTok with funny stuff early days, now it's like a pivot. And the pivot for me is my growth with my audience. So I feel like you, there's two things an influencer does or a creator does. They either love what they do and they're lucky enough that their audience loves what they do. But then one of two things happen. They fall out of love with what they do, but their audience still loves that one thing or vice versa. Which one is worth? For me, it's falling out of love and the audience says, no, you keep doing that because that's what we like you for. All of a sudden, you're not an influencer, you're a circus performer. And a lot of influencers get stressed, depressed, anxiety, they hate it, but deep down inside they're putting on a show because that's all they know how to do. That's a problem. That's a big problem. And then the ones that do survive, like Madonna, she's been able to reinvent herself over and over and over. She's a severe outlier. For me, I've tried to not niche down. As all these gurus and all these TikTok coaches that come out, they say, you need to niche. Sure, if you're talking about someone who's selling bracelets and watches, sure, absolutely. If that's your business, absolutely, but you still need to teach the audience to fall in love with you. Now, ending, concluding my rant, what are your thoughts on that? Well, first of all, bravo, beautifully done. I agree and hear and am so for everything, everything that you said. And earlier you asked, what are the common problems people encounter when they create a personal brand? And that would probably be the third, right? It actually went great. It went so well that an audience fell in love with them for this thing. And again, I understand that I don't mean to falsely equivocate and niche with a personal brand, but they became known for a thing. And on TikTok, especially, there are people, I work with people who just do makeup. They've done makeup since day one, and people fell in love with them. They do skincare, they do real estate, and they come to this realization eventually. Maybe they haven't even completely fallen out of love with the thing yet, but that their audience has no idea who they are. And that is usually marked by the sort of flippant decision to share something that is not within the box that they've existed, and it just tanks. And I'll also be the first person to say that I don't think likes, views, shares, follows those sort of algorithmically dictated metrics or any actual sign of success. Like I really don't think we can measure our success on any social platform by those metrics. Otherwise, we're secretly and subconsciously working to make a math formula on a computer that none of us have seen happy, but it does shock them, almost always, because they are used to getting a certain number of likes, responses, engagement, and that doesn't happen. So you know, I feel this strongly about not niching down, but you said it best. I think it comes down to, and I say this to my clients all the time. What are your goals? If you just want to sell, if you just want to make money, by all means, niche down, it has a life cycle, you will burn out. I am promising you that niching down is signing up for burnout, but you're going to make a lot of money. And I'm so excited for you because that's exactly what you want. You and I, we don't want that. Do I ask them as like a pre pre like saving them or warning them? I think if I find myself in a zoom with someone, they already know, they don't really need the warning. They really came to me to go, okay, but let me break out of this. And if they're not in my zoom yet, they're just consuming my content. Typically, I get the, oh my God, you're the only one saying this. Everyone is saying to do this. This has given me hope. This has been a light. This has been a shred of something and that I'm glad for because I feel like they're already inside the box and someone's about to tape them shut, but they're like, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, I might not have to be in this box because it's exactly what you said. That is the worst version. The worst version is crafting this thing, growing a following, and the following saying, no, you can't be anything other. And of course, then somebody listening to this or watching this might go, well, screw the following, that person could just do it. Well, no, they can't if their income depends on it. No, they can't if that has created their life. And those are a lot of the people I need now who it's all well and good for me, Justin, to say, views don't matter. I've run two other businesses. I'm fine. But then I get people who say, my views do matter. It's actually my views directly correlated amount of money I make. This is my full-time job. And I respect the hell out of that. But then it's a longer, more strategic sort of approach to zooming out that lens. But there is a lateral side of it. There is a business side of it. There's a strategic entrepreneurial side of it so that you don't pigeonhole yourself in that one revenue stream. And then it's like the girls that are joining the OnlyFans club, they're finding success super quickly. And I've got a few friends in the industry and I asked them the one same question. Are you paying your future self? What are you doing? Are you investing or are you spending? And they're saying, oh, I'm investing in myself buying more lingerie, you know, doing more photo shoots and stuff like that to build. I'm like, yeah, you're building. You're building to what? You can't exit. You can't exit an OnlyFans account unless you've become someone's slave. But that's where the investment comes in. So this is something that needs to be a wider conversation of having an exit strategy. Because one day you will get to that point. With my wedding photography, 2020, right, I booked out my business two years in advance, leveraging organically from TikTok. Because I built my personal brand and I had, this was not even a strategic thing. I just love making content. So it was a natural accident. And now I'm consulting people on how to do it. But two years later, 2022, making really decent money per year as a wedding photographer, I saw a glass ceiling and I don't want to break through it because I'm already bored. But seeing that early, that's self-awareness. Self-awareness is hard to teach, but it evolves in someone. And I feel that influencers who are mostly in their 20s, some early 30s, like myself, I guess, if they don't become self-aware soon, they may as well get one of those six-figure, almost seven-figure salaries. They get a mortgage, they get a family, they put themselves in a bit of debt, but they have to stay in that industry because that's their only income. And it's the same with many other glamorous industries, even doctors and lawyers fall into the same category. Because 10, 15 years down the track, they go, actually, I don't like this. But the lifestyle that it pays for is amazing. Right? So what do you do with clients who are on the brink of that situation, where they're saying, how do I pivot, Justin? Please help me pivot. This is the only thing I've known. How do I pivot to something else? It's a great question. And what immediately comes up for me is, and this might be, it might sound antithetical to what you're talking about, but a lot of the clients who are coming to the place where they want to pivot, they've done well. They've actually done pretty well. And so what I remind them is that this isn't going to change in a day. This is actually going to be something that we need to do very purposefully and intentionally over a bit of time. But I always ask them, for right now, are you okay? Can you put food on the table? You have a roof over your head. Are you okay? And they're like, well, yeah, no, I'm fine. I said, that's a huge privilege. You actually get to make this pivot with a safety net under you. And we have to say that out loud, clock it and be very conscious of it, because so many people go to pivot or make a choice, and they're just jumping off the cliff. You have a safety net, which is so great. But then let's push. Let's do this intentionally and let's make some slightly riskier decisions and let's do this efficiently. And of course, then I guide the pivot, but I actually think it's really important to first clock your privilege and say, I have done really, really well at this. I am now trying to survey a higher version of myself. It's no longer about the money. And again, frankly, probably should have started as not thinking about the money because as we know, or I assume you believe money's a byproduct, I think money shows up when you show up. And we talked about those magic opportunities that reveal themselves. But that's actually the first thing I say, like, you're okay. You could change nothing and you would be unhappy, but your bank account would be fine. That's already a privilege. Okay, cool. And then we talk about, I really think about it as zooming out the lens or just looking at things from more of an aerial view and reframing how they tell their stories. And almost always, they've just left themselves out of the formula. They've left themselves out of the equation. So I often like to say, if I can learn something from you, while I learn about you, you've got it made. You've got a follower for life. Especially if I buy enough, if I know you like you and then trust you, I'm in. And so actually weaving people's selves back into their stories, it's not that hard. It just takes a willingness to believe that your story matters enough to be woven in the first place. So that's typically what guides the pivot, the rest of their life that they've left out. Yeah, I agree. I think something that I get good at personally, but then sometimes I forget. And I'm trying to really hone in on it now, especially with my pivoting. Like I'm on an ultimate pivot. I'm going away from the entertainment and more for the education. Edutainment, they call it. Have you heard of that one? The hybrid word? Edutainment is the best way to do it. As a school teacher, former school teacher, that's how I killed it in a classroom. But the education, there needs to be value in the content. Long term, because I want to go down the street and have my photo taken with a fan. And the fan goes, I love that video. It's changed my life. Not. I'm a big fan of your stuff. You make funny videos. Even though that's great, I have more fulfillment of the former because that's legacy. And that's what I feel that most influencers or creators should think about maturing into as they hear towards their 30s and 40s. Because if they just keep pushing products the whole time, they're not long. They're not long until they're gone. Something else I thought about before when you said, you know, people showcase themselves and showcase their lives and they hear that trigger with their audience and the audience invest. They said, yep, I like you instantly. I can relate. I feel like going back to the sporting analogy, people watch sports because those people have worked so hard their whole lives and they're succeeding at something. Whereas the common folk, nine to five, they work from Monday to Friday. They cannot wait until the weekend. Let's say let's say it's NFL because that's the weekend sport in Australia. It's, you know, Australian rules. Nine to five Monday to Friday, you're talking about that one game that's coming up. Why? Because you want to escape your own world and live vicariously for someone else. When you get to the weekend, you watch your superheroes on the field. They are doing amazing things. They're each individual mascots of a team. What's that team also known as? A business. They're promoting that business. What does that business get? Memberships because that's the business. That's how they make money. That's the raw core of it all. Then on Monday, you go back to work, you're like, oh my god, how good was the game? Because you want to escape reality. Influencers and creators do that on social media 24 seven. If you can help someone escape reality, you're doing a good thing. But if you can help escape reality with value that they can do it too, or they can make something more of themselves than their non-fulfilling nine to five, which majority again are, that is something that I want to strive towards. And originally when I first discovered you, I thought, how do I do that myself? Now, without this becoming a consultation call, what is something that most people struggle with when they do want to make that pivot? When they do want to mature, but they're scared because they feel like they're leaving the audience behind the ones that are used to the, let's say, entertaining part of it? I just want to say one thing before I answer that. I think it's interesting to think of all of this or a lot of this as escaping reality or as escapism, because I wonder if the best kind of content storytelling that does also share value actually enables and allows your audience to ground themselves more firmly in their reality and just see it in a new way, right? I don't actually think I hope that my people are escaping. I hope that if anything, it's like hitting the refresh button. It's like seeing it all through. You didn't realize how bad your vision was and I was able to put a pair of glasses on you for a second. Without preaching, without preaching. Without, yes, that's a great point too. Without preaching, which by the way is such an energetic thing, right? It's also about the way that you say things. I do think I'm very good at showing up and saying things. I'm completely honest. I'm completely transparent. Exactly who you get in my content is who I show up as right now. And that's a skill as a performer, but there are people who do come across as preachy, and sometimes it's not even what they say. It's just how they say it. And we could go down that rabbit hole at some point because it is fascinating. But yes, without sounding preachy, what are you not already seeing that's around you? Why do you feel the need to escape? What if you just were grateful for where you were? And I hear the whole nine to five in the weekend thing and that whole, that is its own sort of interesting compartmentalized conversation. When people are afraid, especially about leaving their audience behind, I like to remind them that if a follower unfollows you after you've shifted your content, then they weren't really a follower. They were a visitor. And if what you are now sharing is more truthful, honest, organic, authentic for you, and they're no longer here for it, good riddance. That's fine. You are not going to be for everyone. I'll say to clients, like, what if I actually promise you that at some point someone's going to dislike you or have some shit to say, something to say about your content? And they're like, what? I said, because it's going to happen. You're not going to be liked by everyone. So get used to that now and actually bask in it because it's so freeing. So when those people unfollow you or you do make a pivot and some people say, this was fun, thank you. You wave right back and you say, thank you for being here for the time that you were. And also engaging. Yes. You got me to where I am. And now I'm in a place where I want to dive off the diving board and see what's next. I also think people really personify their audience in a way that's way more precious than it is really sometimes because I love all 206,000 people that currently follow me. And again, I hope that continues to ascend. But a lot of it's, a lot of it's algorithmic, a lot of it's vanity, a lot of it's all that, like there's no guarantee on TikTok even that all of your audience even sees your content. I follow us to or sometimes like, oh, so good to see you on my FYP again. I'm like, maybe I've been posting for weeks. Like I don't know what I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm glad I ended up there too. So I think we could all be a little more playful too. It's, it's, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. So how do you, how do you suggest to someone that's building their following, but realizes that the vast minority can see it all the time? And those are the ones that we call super fans. What is, what are some key ways that one can achieve that also known as building a community? There are some super granular things. Respond to your comments. I know it's time consuming, especially if you receive a ton of them. And if you get to this level, you will receive a ton of them, but, but you really can forge a relationship with these people in the comments. And I'm not saying write a novel back to each person, but even just knowing that they said something and you received it and you gave something back makes their day. And I don't mean that in a toss, toss celebrity way. It just, they reached out through the void and the void reached back. And that is so special. Sense of. Yes. Yes. But again, like you said, not in a preachy way, not in a false way, not in a I'm performing community or belonging. It's we're connecting. We're just genuinely connecting right now. So you can respond to your comments. I, another thing I love to do is I love to do video replies to comments because I think one, you're then directly literally talking, you're in dialogue with your audience, but two, the optics of that move are, oh, this creator is inside of their comments and actively reading them and actively responding. That's cool. I want to be a part of it. And then a third thing that is a little more high level in cerebral because I bounced back and forth between the two is creating content that leaves space for your audience. I'd like to leave if I tell a story or I share a piece of content, I try to show up and fill about 80% of that space. But I hope that 20% of that space allows the audience to step into it with me and experience that journey. It's also why I like longer form, short form. Like I'm really not a fan of like a 15 second piece. First of all, I love words and anybody who has listened to this thus far knows that too. It's harder for me to gauge how much space I can leave for my audience in 15 seconds, as opposed to three minutes or six minutes. Some of my best performing videos on TikTok are over five minutes long, which people always balk at when I say, but that's where I live. I live in long form storytelling and conversation. And in that way, I can really hold my followers hand and we can walk together through this story, which they love. When you make those five minute videos, do you script it at all? Or do you just go on an absolute rant? It's not scripted. No, it's not scripted at all, especially those long videos. I will say, and this is maybe helpful for a listener or a viewer, the way that I will typically do those longer form videos as a strategic take this, if it works for you. I won't record them in TikTok because you can't record over three minutes if you're inside the app. I'll record them third party on my phone. And if I'm going to talk for, because if it's a five minute video, then chances are I talked for eight, talked for 11, and then I've edited it down. So I'll typically take my phone, I'll prop it up, I'll get comfy. I know where I'm, I know what I want to say, but I have no idea what I want to say. And I just go. And I usually, I think of it like slaloming down a hill, because if I'm skiing and like trying to get through this one, trying to get through this one, and the story meanders, but I'm proud of my storytelling ability, I think I can, I can weave a compelling tale from start to finish. But then a lot of it's in the editing too, right? Learning what's technically in this moment for this story ancillary and doesn't really belong here. But also giving yourself the space to tell a longer form story. One of the more recent ones I did was I'm sure you've seen the artificial intelligence portraits that everybody's been doing, especially as a photographer. I'm sure you have a lot of thoughts about it. I have a lot of thoughts about it. And it did a longer piece four or so minutes. The thesis of which was people are using this AI portrait thing because it's spitting back out at you these glamorized gorgeous cartoon versions of you. And since it's become a trend and it's a cartoon, posting it is okay because both of those facts, the cartoon and trend, mitigate the shame you might feel about posting a really lovely picture of just Seb or Justin and being like, I felt handsome. I love this, because then you're kind of an asshole. But if it's a cartoon and everyone's doing it, we're all allowed to be like, look at this silly cartoon version of me. Don't I look amazing? Because it secretly speaks to that unspoken need we all have to be seen and complimented and validated. But now again, that it's a cartoon and a trend. We're allowed to want those things. And I just wish that we lived in a world. Oh my gosh. But a mask that looks just like you, but like a little better. And why can't we just post a picture? You know, the felt cute might delete later. Why can't it just be felt cute? Period. Like why can't we just live in a world where we're not so afraid of sharing confidently and that there is a difference between confidence and like flagrant, egotistical nonsense. There is a there is a line that's about to be found. But yes, absolutely. Yeah. And when I first started to post videos of myself when Instagram stories came out, that's when I really started to come out of my shell. Not that I had a shell to begin with. I just was in a football culture where the football alpha guys were the ones that would go, why do you do that? That's weird. That's that's not what we do. And I'm like, well, I'm not you guys. I like to be myself. I remember 2010 2011. I was a rookie in my semi professional sports team. And I was really wanting to make it. And I needed more work. And I could get a bartender job at a nightclub. And the nightclub that I worked at was a gay nightclub. And for the longest time I try to keep that a secret because I knew that the alpha males of my football team would shun me for it and make fun of it and things like that. And I was only 20 at the time 21. And I'm I'm what do you call a straight heterosexual all of that white male guy. What do you call it sick? Is that what the thing is? Yes, yes, that's the one. Cis white man. And at that time, I was like, I don't want any dramas. I have a lot of gay friends. And I just want to do my thing. And I had the most fun with that group of people. But when when the boys found out, it was just like, it wasn't like traumatizing. It was just they make me they made me feel embarrassed. And that's when I need to get out because I'm not in the crowd that makes me feel embarrassed for something that's normal now, you know, what I felt back then feeling it in 2022 is you wouldn't dream of it, you know, I depend on what country you were. But the point of this is when I when I'm doing things and I'm articulating them, I'm extroverted by nature. But because I've been involved in these groups that were of more, more like a herd mentality, even though they're alphas, alphas are still a herd mentality, because they follow each other and, you know, the jocks and stuff. And no disrespect to them, they have their fun. And, you know, we had good times too, but just as my mantra wasn't for me. But when Instagram stories came out, I was like stuff it, I'm just going to make videos. And I had friends that would talk to me, but no longer talk to me because they were embarrassed for me. And they said, Oh, you're on TikTok now, that's so cringe. And then they hit me up years later. They're like, Seth, you're still doing that TikTok stuff. That's so cringe. And I'm like, you're still working that nine to five, and you're complaining about it. That's so cringe. That. And like, and that's the message I want to bring across. Like, no matter who you are, what you do, don't be afraid to express yourself, whether you're gay, straight, trans, whatever, you need to show yourself. Because like RuPaul says, if you can't, love yourself. Love yourself. Love anybody else. Love somebody else. Can I get an amen? That's right. That's right. And like, when people go, Oh, what the hell, you watch RuPaul? I was like, why not? It's cool. It's fun. It feels, even though it's, excuse me, even though it feels still produced, it's like, it's something different, right? And, and that, and that is the only reality TV show that I actually watch. Because everything else is garbage. Everything else is garbage. And people go, What are you doing? Who cares? What are you watching MasterChef for? Every other article in the newspaper says MasterChef is doing this and they've got depression now and you know, Love Island, this and all this amazing race that, all these contracts are just terrible. But going back to like reality TV versus influences now, that the margins so thin, because I'm seeing influences who were on Big Brother two, three years ago, and they're clinging onto that. But I'm like, you are so talented in your own right. Why don't you express yourself rather than hang on to that 15 seconds of fame that you once had, just because that landed you a blue check mark on Instagram. Actually leverage it to, to showcase your proper personality, not wait for the next business or brand deal to come in. And I feel like that's a huge gap, Justin. I reckon that that gap is something that we can look at going forward into 23 and beyond, where brands and companies are looking for genuine mascots who aren't going to snort, coke up their nose and ruin their reputation, you know, and some others that we're not going to speak about who have gone haywire right now and got D, what do you call it? D branded? Yeah. These kids are watching these people and they're going, that's, that's the way, that's the right way to do it. No way. You know, that's a huge gap in the market. But I don't know. I went on a few tangents there, but going back into it, do you see, are you starting to see more people wanting to express their own personal brand authentically? Or are you still seeing like, is it which side are we on? Which side are you seeing skewing? Make the money, make the bank, get as many business deals and who cares about the following at the end of the day? Or no, I want to leave a legacy. We are moving away from dollars and follower account. The individual is the folks with the power occasionally are not yet, they're behind. And I mean that on a couple lines of the spectrum, we talked about those TikTok and Instagram gurus and coaches that help you grow your stuff. They are also still holding on because they are the ones still preaching niche down, find your ideal client avatar, find their pain points, agitate them, tell them you have the solution, charge five grand for your coaching program, which like, look, I did, I bought into it. Like I was the person who bought the $8,000 coaching program and immediately regretted it and then had somebody tell me for three months niche down. And I was like, well, what I learned from this is I don't want to do it the way you're doing it. So they're holding on to it. And then some businesses and find, and frankly, the bigger the business, the more they're holding on to it, I find that these newer startups, because that's a lot of who I work with our founders or startups with, with, you know, leadership teams, who get it. And again, it's that manifests and we want people with smaller followings who have legitimate engagement and really aligned communities too. We want to work with larger creators who are just really, really good storytellers and are going to weave our product into what they're doing in a super nuanced way. And so I do also help my clients do that. But I do think we're moving. I really do. I will share, I can't share too much about it, but I will share, I've gotten a little bit into the political space here, not because I sought to, but because I've been contacted by some folks teams to come on board and help with storytelling because I look at the political circus here. And again, we don't have to go into it because it's nonsense. And hopefully this time has let somebody escape that at least everyone's a terrible storyteller. And if you literally learned how to engage a crowd and be a great storyteller, I think that is how you ultimately win influence. And you wouldn't self-title yourself as an influencer, you would just do it and be it and exemplify it. So I do think we're moving. I think it's going to take a lot longer, a lot longer. I don't think we're going to fully realize this in 23. Either we're going to feel a lot more of it in 24. And I have no idea what the rest of the 2020s hold, but we're moving. We are. And if I have anything to say about it, we're moving. I agree. In general, who do you, or even a couple of people, who do you think does it best with what you're trying to coach? I think on TikTok, I can think of, I really love Kat Stickler. If you know her content at all, she's great. She's a single mom, beautiful, funny, willing to be vulnerable, shares a lot, doesn't share everything, does a ton of brand collabs, but they're all so organic. Great. I think the celebrity crossover has been fascinating. We see people like Meghan Trainor or Lizzo who show up and have a good time. They're willing to play, they're willing to laugh at themselves. And I think that that's important. This sort of genuine self-referential, aware of your own person, aware of your own fame, because I can get really icky really fast, but I think they do it really well. I'm going to say one that is going to be so polarizing, but that's probably why I'm saying it. Love them or hate them. I think the Kardashian-Jenner family, they're geniuses. And whether they're legitimately like in Mensa or not, that's, you know, remains to be seen. But they're laughing all the way to the bank. And even though they've made so many mistakes in faux pas along the way, like I don't see them being dethroned. I don't see them ever not being in power because they're masterful at the pivot and at the meta use of their own storylines. I mean, it's the conglomerate is wildly fascinating to me. I do always say, if anybody's listening out there with power, one of my dreams is to sign a stack of 400 NDAs and find myself at a table with the Kardashian-Jenner's and make them like 5% more likable because I know I could do it. It's also funny that I've named a bunch of women, but I think that's also the energy that I connect with a lot. Who do you think does it really well? I mean, I mentioned Mr. Beast earlier. He does it completely for passion, right? And there's a couple of others. I mean, in Australia, I can't really think of many people. And maybe that's because I don't consume as much. Or the ones that I've seen are all just comedians or they're just doing the same thing over and over. Good for them. I see a lot of TikTok creators over East because I'm from the West. They build their audience so quickly and they're famous and they get brand deals and all this stuff, but they just do one thing. I try to look beyond, but I can't see the person that I can't connect with them. And maybe they say the same thing about me, but at the end of the day, I think like, oh, and going back to Mr. Beast and how he gives away 10 grand for challenges. And if you do this and that, I'm seeing a lot of different kind of charity channels that go up and go, hey, can you give me a dollar? And then first person to give them a dollar, I give $100 back. I mean, that's so oversaturated now. But it's still wholesome for some reason. And I'm thinking, what's next? What's something that can be more trendy where you see just positive people being happy? Just going out there and having a conversation with someone and it's just a positive conversation. There's no shock value. There's no prank at the end of it. I'm not seeing that many there in that space. And that's what I want to see. So, yeah, I can't tell you who's doing it best in my opinion. I mean, I talk about the Kardashians every now and then in not so like a negative way, but in sort of like, they're doing it right from a personal brand perspective. But where's my inspiration coming out? Like, if I go to someone and go, you like the Kardashians, why do you like the Kardashians? Obviously, you Justin like them because of the way that they do it, right? But for a normal everyday consumer, why do they like them? Oh, they're rich and famous. I want to be like them. Why do you want to be like them? Find that common denominator. Go through the Socratic method with everybody. My biggest heartbreak is when fans come up to me, they want to take a photo, which is transactional, but that's fine. And then I say to them, why do you follow me? And they say, because you're famous. It's like high school being popular in high school. Everyone likes a popular kid because he's popular. You don't stop and think going, wait, what is this person's value? Maybe either the jock of the football team or the cheerlead or the cliche thing. But what else? Are they a good person? Do they have like a kind of charity thing behind them? Is that something that is also herd mentality now? Because you have to be part of a charity. You have to be a good person. What is the answer? There's no real answer. There's no right or wrong answer. But yeah, for me, I want to see more authentic characters that are just doing their thing and they're genuinely wanting to just do their thing. I'd say, I put you in that category. The people that I follow, they're the ones that are doing it best because they give me value. And I don't feel like there's a sales pitch at the end of that video. We still got to monetize though. We still all have to pay our bills. And that's my personal dilemma right now. My philanthropic goals are to go back to schools and talk as a speaker. But I know that schools can't afford speaking fees. So can I monetize in a different way where I get sponsorship for doing that? It's the best way to do that right now through TikTok. How do I do that? There's obviously a system. I got to follow it and execute it. But for now, I feel like it happens every year around this time. And finally enough, this December, everybody's crying about lack of views because apparently there's a TikTok algorithm change. I mean, I've gotten the worst amount of views I've had all year in the last week. And I'm just like, that's the type of TikTok. And that's just showing the creators that you're vulnerable if you're on one channel. So an Instagram's going high. I'm getting all my mates who are influencers and creators. They've jumped 50,000 followers on Instagram. Three, four years ago, that's unheard of. It's like the heyday's gone. Then it was hard. And now it's back again because they want to try and compete with TikTok. But then you go back to the one same question. What is everybody doing it for? And that's what I ask everybody. And when I can see through them, I'm like, I don't believe you because there's no value. They don't have value in their presence. And I think I would love to do a session with you and see how I can bring that out better. Because when you said you reckon you can bring the Kardashians 5% more likeability, I'm going, how do I do that with myself? But then also, why do I want to do that? So you go through all this. How do you think personal branding can help someone in their personal life? I love it. Shameless plug for the TEDx talk I gave earlier this year, checking out on YouTube because I think there's a lot of TEDx. Oh, hello. I didn't realize. I mean, of course. So in a very, right, that's me. Now you know more of me, audience. So in a very simple way, I like to think of it. If the niche or the label that you've confined yourself in is this box, then a refined personal brand becomes the exacto knife you can use to cut it right open and let it fall open. And I will use myself as an example. And it's a case study because I experienced it myself as somebody who apologized for a lot of parts of himself and hid for many, many years. It was showing up on TikTok. Yes, but it was one specific thing that I did, which was I said my name. I said my name all the time and I refused to cry at 9, 27 a.m. Eastern Standard Time. But I said my name all the time in the beginning of my videos. And people would like tease me very lightly about it because it was always high. I'm Justin Schumann and blah, blah, blah, whatever it was after it, because I think her introduction can change pursuant to whatever the goal of the piece is. But then I would ask people like, are you sick of it? Have you, have you unfollowed yet? They're like, no, I kind of love it. And I'm like, right, me hiding behind this being like, oh my God, what? Because I was always so ashamed of my name. And I apologized anytime I said it. But you can't say it hundreds of times without eventually just become desensitized. And I would say my name and say my name and say my name and realize that by saying my name, these magic opportunities were opening up for me. And I was taking up more space in this digital space. And it was informing who I was in my real life. I cared far less about people in general. And I don't mean about wanting to help them and wanting to be good natured, but it wasn't even I was like, oh, I'm worried what they'll think. I was just so ambivalent. I was like, I don't really care what you think about what I'm doing because I believe really strongly in what I'm doing. And I'm just stubborn enough to make it all happen. So how can building a personal brand in the digital space inform your real life? In so many ways, it's a great place to practice taking up space, make content, tell your story, decide for a second that you are deserving of being heard and being seen. And once you live in that space and it becomes habit, it just informs who you are. And that's where I want to see more people do in 23. You don't have to want to become a crazy monetized person. You don't have to want to build a million person following. If you show up and tell your stories, you will change your life. I'm convinced of it. That's living proof right here. I feel though, and this is where a lot of my hobbies that became passions, that became careers, there's a bell curve in that. So I started making content, just me, authentically me. Don't give a shit about followers. Because you're at zero, who cares? First 500 came, which took me 40 videos before I got 100 followers. You got my Instagram highlights section and there's a thing called TikTok journey. I actually said in my very first one, hey, jump in on TikTok for the first time, follow me before I'm famous. I actually said that. But without, with complete, like unbeknownst to me that that was going to happen. And the word famous, ridiculous, but people come to me and go, oh, you're the famous TikTok. I'm like, what the famous? What? When people want to photo with you on screen every five minutes, that's come on. That's the same thing. But that's just in Australia, right? So I'm not international yet. And that's kind of where I want to go next. I want to be able to reach the audience in the States and Europe, but obviously for the beacon of hope, whatever. But when I was growing my following, when I hit it, when I hit the viral videos and that, I was still doing the same thing. But now I feel like I'm a little bit detached from the initial side. And I want that back. And I want to discuss with you next. And if you have to go, let me know. What causes that detachment? I think you said it earlier. You said self-awareness is really hard to teach. It sort of has to unfold and evolve in a person. And I think that if you created authentic content, if you created authentic content back then and create relatively the same content, maybe production value is shifted, maybe the messaging is shifted slightly, but roughly that same authentic content got you to where you are now. To me, that's a marker of a very self-aware person or a person who can remain, has the resolve to continue to do what they're doing despite what others are saying. Eventually, you become self-aware and you just become, it's that meta-awareness of I'm creating this thing and it feels so authentic. Does it? Or like, okay, but now I've, you said it, this was interesting too. I clocked this. You said, you know, monetizing in, there's a system and I have to follow it. I have to execute. It was like really thrown away. It was really tossed because clearly you have some type of feelings about the way that you need to monetize through these channels because there is a system and you do have to follow it and you do have to execute. So I think for you, there's probably this internal dilemma between from what I'm sensing, this desire to go international for the purpose of spreading this beacon of hope and also like not hating being the person that gets asked for pictures every five minutes, although it might feel transactional and although they might not have the answer that you want when you ask them, why do you follow you? Because then that's about them, not you. I do believe both can exist. I can believe that you enjoy being known and having a platform for what you want to share and that you also want to change the world and also want to, we contain multitudes and we're very complex people, but I think those of us who know how to then juggle multiple balls, we then start to question, why are we even juggling at all? Because it's tiring sometimes and it's hard and, and what's it all for? And we ask the big life questions too. We're not, we're not exempt from questioning. And I think that's maybe a moment you're about that you're having or about to have, you're just questioning, which is a wonderful opportunity to shift something. Yeah, I feel that for sure, for sure. And it's just enjoying that shift, enjoying the questions, enjoying whatever comes and not overthinking it because the most times I've seen people fail is when they just go, I'm not getting interviews. I'm going back to what I was doing before. And then a year later, I'm going to see them again. They've quit or they've deleted it or they, they're frustrated. I'm just like, just be yourself. And eventually people, I firmly believe everybody has a million followers in the world that they love, that they will love them. It's just a matter of consistency, timing, luck, assistance, patience to come together that will bring those million followers. And those million followers will, will eat out of every word that you say. There's outliers and people look at the outliers and only the outliers and model their, that success. And if they don't hit that same success, that they, they fold within a week. And it's like, you see Charlie D'Amelio and Carbi Lame, those two were like severe outliers and everybody was like, Oh my God, you know, 100 million followers and that. Yeah, but I stopped watching both of them within a week of them growing their thing next, you know. So yeah, but to conclude this, Justin, what, what advice would you have for someone who's just starting to work on their personal brand, the beginning of their journey? I think the advice I'd give, especially if we're talking in this social media world is make the shitty content. Just make the shitty content, because you'll never get to good content, which for anybody just listening to this, I put in major air quotes, not that there is an object. Well, I actually do believe there's objectively good content. I love when people comment and they're like, I'm shadow banned. And then they don't know this, but I go to their account. I'm like, no, you're not, you just make really bad content. I'm bored. But sorry, I'm also always honest. So make the shitty content because it's not that you're trying to get to objectively viral content, because viral does not equal good. Actually, hardly ever does viral equal good sometimes, sometimes. But goodness doesn't reach as far as negativity. It speaks to what you were talking about earlier too. It's why is this sort of like, what's the negativity, but why are the negative side of the spectrum sometimes so laser focused? It's just because they carry more power. It takes longer to prove you're a good, it takes not prove, it takes longer to share that you're a good person. But if you attach yourself to a charity, or you're performative about your goodness, then it's easier. But then the fact that you're performing it immediately invalidates it. Make the shitty content. Get on camera and start getting used to seeing your face, hearing your voice. That's literally 80% of the battle because it's hard to see yourself while you be yourself. And if that's really true, there's so many ways you can take video of yourself doing just b-roll stuff and then you could maybe put text on the screen. And then maybe the next version is you're sort of acknowledging the camera, but you're still not speaking. And then you put a voice over under it. And then maybe, maybe, maybe you actually deign to do a talking head video to the camera at some point, but just get it all out there. Don't concern yourself with niching, niching, especially the beginning is only going to, I say any best practice that allows you to sit in an action is not a really great practice, then is it? So don't niche, throw stuff against the wall. See what you enjoy talking about and find the stories that you like to share and how you like to share them. Don't concern yourself with a personal brand yet. Really, truly, if you're in the very beginning of this journey and you're looking to build a personal brand, forget about the personal brand. Just share and be and really lean into the discomfort because I promise you you're going to be so uncomfortable when you start this. It really is a very uncomfortable journey in the beginning. And then you start to thrive on it. And then the one last thing I'll say is the recent hill that I'm dying on because I get clients who are literally like, well, you know, I do this nine to five. And I really just want to be a full time creator. I really just want to monetize and I go, okay, cool. So what are your great? What are your plans to monetize? And they're like, well, you know, I'll do like sponsored posts and brand collabs. And I always, I do a little bit of a shake my head and I lean in because I'm like, I'm a year into this with over 200,000 followers, which is not nothing, not as big as it will get, but, and I don't, I couldn't subsist just on brand collabs. Absolutely not. It would not be enough money to live. And I think people just go, I'll just become a full time creator. It doesn't work like that. And you know what, creating content is hard and tiring. It is a really exhausting process, even when you fully understand and know who you are and you can be authentic on camera. It's still the ringing of your creative mind and heart regularly, which is a unique form of exhaustion. So make some shitty content, go easy on yourself and try to have fun, like really do from the very beginning, try not to take it too seriously. Amazing. Amazing. And let's go to the other end quickly. The advice you have of someone who has been in the game for a long time and who still wants to stay in it, but they're not sure where to go. What's the advice? Well, it sounds like we should work together. I feel like the advice for them is, it goes back to what we've been talking about this entire time. Why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? Because I'll talk to people, sometimes they'll come to me for a TikTok console and they're like, well, I'm really successful over on YouTube and Instagram. And so TikTok has just been this side thing. And I'll say, do you want it to be more than a side thing? Or do you even have the bandwidth for it to be more than a side thing? And by the end of the session, they've gotten to this place where they're really excited for short form, but oftentimes they'll be like, no, I just got on here because I was bored. And so I'm like, then why are we doing this? You don't actually have to change anything. So I think you really have to ask yourself, what do I ultimately want out of this journey? And am I willing to do what's required to make those changes? Because it is, again, it is work to shift. And it's not work because it's like arduous grinding, but it's that consistency you talked about. One piece does not change somebody's perception. One piece does not guide a following to where it's going. I talk about the content, like the weather of your content and then the content climate, it takes a long shift in weather to change the climate of a place. And that's what you're ultimately trying to do, but shifting the climate takes a long time. So why do you want to do this? And again, there's no shame in saying, I like the money and I like being known. I can help you that too. But there is a shelf life. What do you want out of this? And how far are you willing to go to get it? Absolutely. Yeah, there is a shelf life. And I'm really excited to see what I'm going to do next. It's the journey is more exciting than the destination, as it should be. And I'm excited to see how you progress after one year in and where you're going from here yourself. What about your personal brand, Justin? I didn't touch on that. Where do you see your personal brand going in the next 12 months? Oh my gosh. Again, I don't want to start crying only because 2022 has been, on January 1st of 2022, I could never have predicted what this year would have looked like. I was in a Broadway show that closed. I was in a three year, three plus year relationship that ended. I was in a very, very deep depression for five months or so. And I created through it and integrated, but it has been such a roller coaster. And I keep just feeling like 2023 is going to be this incredible, incredible year of growth and discovery and exposure. If I ended up being the next Brené Brown, I would be really happy. If I could be a known commodity in the mental health and wellness space, which I do appreciate, is relatively saturated, but that approaches things through a really tactical granular lens of storytelling, being self-actualized, showing up on social as a tool. That would mean a lot to me. I did film, I was a guest on a very large talk show a couple of months ago that has not aired yet. And so I'll tell you after we stop recording. And I'm hoping that when that airs, that does give some visibility to what I have to say because the host and I disagreed on social media. I don't think it's perpetuating loneliness. I think it actually could be a tool for connecting and networking and experiencing others. Wow. I don't know where this goes. I don't know where this goes. I'm so excited. Oh, that's the best. I work for, I mean, it's 8.30 a.m. my time when we started this and I was so excited, but my day is packed with, I jump right into a call with my community after this, then I run downtown for something I don't quite remember. My days have become packed with things that I love and everything I do that brings in a single dollar into my bank account I'm obsessed with. And I think very few people in the world get to say that. That success. That is success. That is success. So everybody listening at home, if you want to become successful, my and Justin's way of saying it is every dollar that you make, you absolutely love every minute that you spent making that dollar because if not, then you're just working. And the money is just a tool of reminder of the time that you sacrificed to obtain it to get a better picture of what that looks like. Go watch the movie Time with Justin Timberlake. Big one. Mind blowing, really. So Justin, thank you so much for your time and thank you so much for your wisdom and value and your rants that I just loved to listen to. And I hope you enjoyed mine and I'm looking forward to the next chat. And let's see how the communities take this because it's time to edit it now and dig out some gold nuggets. The whole thing is a gold bar, really. So let's see what happens. Thanks for having me. Pleasure. All right, guys, as always, good text.