 Good afternoon, everyone. Good afternoon. Hi, everybody made it through the various traffic jams in New York City today. My name is Elizabeth Sackler, and I am very happy to welcome you this afternoon to the third of our Autumn's three-part series, States of Denial, The Illegal Incarceration of Women, Children, and People of Color, co-hosted between the Elizabeth A. Sackler Center for Feminist Art and the wonderful New York's Correctional Association. Last week's program, and indeed the entire series can be seen on www.brooklynmuseum.org slash EAS, CFA, slash videos. How many of you who are here in the audience were here last weekend? And how many of you are here for the first time? Oh, okay. Well, this is terrific, actually. I will, for those of you who weren't here last weekend, you may want to go on Tuesday, and you will be able to see the last weekend's panel. And for those of you who share my opinion that we are in danger and beginning to see the militarization within the United States, you can see what I have to say on the matter, whether you agree or disagree, online on Tuesday. I will not repeat myself today, and I wouldn't want you to miss knowing what I think. This past summer, I heard a talk by Stephen Batchelor, and he self-describes him as a contemporary secular Buddhist. And in this case, because he's so brilliant, it's not an oxymoron. He is a scholar, he is a teacher, and he is a writer. This particular talk was one of the series entitled A Culture of Awakening. Stephen called attention to the difference between, it's really the gulf, between believing and doing. And in this case, believing and doing in the context of not merely living on earth, but dwelling on this earth. He asked not only what does it mean to dwell on this earth, but how do we want to dwell on this earth? He introduces the word sacred, and now I quote, there is a sacred way of dwelling on this earth. The four divine abodes are loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity. These divine abidings, he said, are ways of dwelling on the earth. He continued, certain things simply are sacred, he said, things that have ultimate value for us. Women's rights are sacred. Non-violence is sacred. There are core values that we are not willing to negotiate, that articulate what is sacred for us, end quote. He then told the following parable about a Buddhist monk, Nagasha Ega, and the Greek king Munanda. Again, a quote, the king asks the monk, what is faith? The monk replies, well, imagine a line of people standing on a riverbank, and they want to get over to the other shore. There is no bridge, there are no rocks, and there is no raft, and these people don't have the courage to jump, to take a leap across. And then a strong person comes, say an athlete perhaps, he comes along and says, it's okay, we can get across, and this person takes a running jump and jumps over the river in one bound. That then gives people the faith and the confidence that they can do that too, and so they do. Stephen then jumps himself, millennia, into the 19th century, introduces us to Danish philosopher Soren Kierkegaard, who Stephen says writes for the first time, and coins perhaps, what we now know as the leap of faith. Quoting Stephen again, faith, he said, is willingness to do something that goes beyond our hesitations, goes beyond our fears. It's about going beyond our limits, not constrained by our greed, by our fear, by our self-consciousness. We reach out to the other, we reach out to a moment of injustice or suffering in the world, and we take the risk of responding to it. That is an act of faith. I continue to quote Steve. Every time we have the audacity to think we can live a life not determined by greed and hatred and fear, we make an act of faith. This is not, he says, about dogma or metaphysical views. It is about the inner courage and trust that gives us strength to risk. The Correctional Association, staff, administration, and board work daily to change the unacceptable in human treatment of incarcerated people in this city, challenging our nationwide systematic roundup of entire populations in our country, and fight for all of our children who are currently at risk without the protection of the legal rights of the child. I now combine Stephen's words, dwelling, sacred with faith, and that is my introduction of Sophia Elijah, the CA executive director. Please join me in welcoming Sophia. Welcome. It is quite an honor for the Correctional Association to have this wonderful opportunity presented to us by Elizabeth A. Sackler and the Sackler Center for Feminist Art to educate, agitate, and what's the last one? Organize. Organize you and the rest of New Yorkers around the issue of people incarcerated and the horrors that they are subjected to day in and day out. A special thank you from the Correctional Association and myself to Elizabeth. Isn't she just like all that? It is a particular honor for me to introduce someone. Where is she hiding? Toshi Reagan from World Rock Sword. Let's give it up. Who's partnering with us today? Come on up, Toshi. Toshi is going to give us a few words of inspiration, and then we're going to get right into the program. Thank you so much for coming. As the sun goes down and this is how the tears begin As my tear drops each one full of hope and I close my eyes and I hear these women cry And as I live speechless as the sun goes by the tear the question that never fails why I don't know. She might not be here. Patrice Johnson. It's one of the New Jersey four and one of the powerful women featured in the film Out in the Night. My name is Toshi Reagan and I am the founder and director of a community festival called World Rock and Sword. Honey, we really community. We ain't got no sponsors. We ain't do no Kickstarter. We got no Indiegogo. We got each other. This is it. That's all we got and it's enough. It's enough. It's really really special to be here in these spaces and see if you Reach out to your community. You don't just get people. You actually can get institutions You can actually get venues that actually believe have somebody in them That actually understands what you're talking about and will work with you to do something what we call a movement That is what a movement is like, you know a campaign is a campaign is temporary A movement as a really it lasts a really long time. So I'm going to let These folks who I know are really powerful get up here and tell you all of The things that we all need to hear and I'm actually going to run out to do a sound check Because how do you pay for your little community festival that you didn't raise no money for you have a show? Yeah, we're showing you call up all your friends. So tonight we're going to be at La Paz on Rouge It is 20 dollars and it is about 30 of the most amazing women artists You have ever seen including morally who you're going to see later And I just want to say that if you don't already know I feel like The issue that we're talking about Any environment are the two most important issues that we need to be dealing with as human beings Especially living in America America is just a little bit spinning Too many messages for its own good And we have to get a hold of our country And we have to get a hold of the systems in this country And we have to take them back and we have to stop letting those few crazy people in washington Sell off everything to everybody who is desperate for money and power. It is our job No politician is going to do it. We have to do it. So I see you in this room. I am so proud of you for being here Get to know somebody you don't know come to the show. We're going to have a big party Listen to all of these powerful people speak And I'll be doing work with rock and sword next year and I will be working with judy you As we've been doing it for four years now and And I love the brooklyn museum I just want to say big up brooklyn museum who's had me up in here for different programs about four times this year So I feel like I belong here and that's a powerful thing To be In the museum with all the issues i'm talking about because you know i'm doing it I'm talking about everything and i'm like wow i'm talking about this in the brooklyn museum It's powerful. Have a beautiful day everybody Okay, my name is tamar crafts dolar. I'm the director of the correctional associations women in prison project It is such an honor to be here and before we get started Can we just have one more enormous round of applause for toshi? Amazing, so we are honored to partner with elizabeth sakler and the sakler center for feminist art here We're honored to partner with toshi and the woodrock and sword festival to put on this presentation today And as you heard the correctional association. We're a nonprofit. We're an advocacy policy advocacy organization and we have a unique Statutory mandate that allows us unfettered access to the prison system We're the only one in new york one of two in the entire country And we use that access to make change and our women in prison project makes that change using a gender lens Using a women's specific lens, so i'm going to take us quickly through before we get to the heart of the presentation today the panels I'm going to put our work in a little bit of a bigger context larger context So folks in this audience may have heard That the united states has five percent of the world's population And we have 25 percent of the world's incarcerated population when you look at that stat through Women's specific lens the numbers are even more staggering We have less than five percent of the world's women But almost one third almost 33 percent of the world's incarcerated women And of course this is a reflection of what's happened to the prison population in this country over the past couple decades Women are no exception over a 35 year time span The number of women in prisons around this country has increased by 894 percent that's almost 900 percent And that stat alone does not include jails doesn't include immigration facilities And of course, it's not just anybody who's incarcerated the almost every single woman who is incarcerated is from a low income community Vastly disproportionate numbers of women who are incarcerated are women of color You can see here African-american women incarcerated at two and a half times the rate of white women Latina women at one and a half times the rate of white women And almost all women no matter what their race are in prison for crimes that are related to addiction related to trauma Related to abuse related to mental illness related to poverty The majority of women we incarcerated in this country are moms The most of those moms or single moms taking care of their kids on their own And this has really left Unthinkable numbers of children without their parents. So an estimated 8.3 million children in this country Have a parent under some form of criminal justice supervision. That's in prison in jail on parole or on probation And that is actually more it's actually bigger than the three times the size of the borough that we're in right now Of course reflecting who's incarcerated parental incarceration Impacts vastly disproportionate numbers of children of color because the african-american children have are seven times more likely than White children to have an incarcerated parent latina and latino children two times more likely than white children And not even pregnancy as we'll hear stands in the way of our incarceration binge in this country So we incarcerate vast numbers of pregnant women You can see here nearly one in 20 women are pregnant at the time of their incarceration And this means that really extraordinary numbers an estimated 2000 women in this country give birth in prison or jail By starting to look at some of these statistics We can start to get a sense of just how wrong our criminal justice system has gone how it's driven by racism by sexism How it targets almost exclusively marginalized communities and how we use incarceration in this country To deal with problems that are social and economic not criminal So before we go forward we're talking today about reproductive justice and mass incarceration I wanted to take a quick minute to really recognize where the term where the concept of reproductive justice came from And it originated in the mid 1990s from a group of african-american women leaders And some actually are in the audience today. So can we just give And these leaders recognized that the reproductive rights movements really narrow focus on choice and abortion really didn't speak to the lived realities of women of color And many many groups only a few are recognized here, but there are many more Many women of color groups came together over the years to fully flesh out fully advance fully articulate this concept of reproductive justice And i'm just going to read very briefly from a Explanation from one of the founders of their reproductive justice movement sister song They wrote that reproductive justice analyzes how the ability of any woman to determine her reproductive destiny is linked directly to the conditions in her community And these conditions are not just a matter of individual choice and access So reproductive justice puts a woman in her true context that recognizes that things like reproductive health reproductive rights reproductive agency They don't exist in a vacuum. They're inextricably linked To who women are and how women experience things like racism and experience things like classism There's a very powerful definition of a reproductive justice put together by a group that's now called forward together They were Asian communities for reproductive justice Reproductive justice exists when all people have the social political and economic power and resources to make healthy decisions about our gender Our bodies our sexuality and our families for ourselves and our communities And so with that kind of definition we can see that you can never have reproductive justice In the era of mass criminalization and mass incarceration They're fundamentally at odds with each other mass criminalization and mass incarceration are only about Perpetuating the very forces that make it impossible for reproductive justice to exist the sexism the racism the homophobia the transphobia the economic injustice And these forces strip away women's reproductive autonomy and their fundamental human rights So prisons deny women the ability to choose one to have children They deny women the ability to parent the children fully that they already have And they deny women even sometimes the ability to maintain custody of their children as we'll talk about They expose women to severely substandard sometimes life threateningly substandard reproductive health care And they put women at risk for things like sterilization as we saw actually happened in california nearly 150 women Were coerced into being sterilized by prison officials there And they often block block women's access to abortion even though women in prison just like women in this country still Are legally guaranteed access to abortion all of these things have become that much worse With mass incarceration because believe it or not correctional institutions right now in this country Serve as one of the single largest providers of reproductive health care for women in prison By mean for women for women just in general in this country So we're going to take a look very briefly at a few cases that just highlight Which women in this society that we're living in are criminalized and why And then what kind of brutality prison unleashes on women's lives and bodies So first we have Marisa Alexander Initially marisa was sentenced to 20 years for shooting a a warning shot into the ceiling of her garage to stop her abusive husband from Attacking her after he had beaten her he had choked her he had threatened to kill her And this was nine days after she'd given birth to her third child So when her sentence was overturned and it was sent back to the lower court the prosecutor in the case Who's the same da who prosecuted the trayvon martin case actually said she was going to seek 60 years against marisa instead of 20 Next we have shinisha taylor shinisha was arrested for leaving her two kids in her locked car While she went on a job interview at an insurance company and shinisha was homeless. She's a single mom She didn't have anyone to take care of her kids. She certainly didn't have money to have anyone take care of her kids So for trying to provide for her family in an impossible situation shinisha was taken to jail on child abuse charges and her kids were put in foster care Then we have alisha beltran when alisha was 14 weeks pregnant She made the mistake of telling her doctor that she had been addicted to pills the year before Her doctor said well, you're gonna be prescribed an anti-addiction pill and alisha said but i'm not addicted anymore I'm not gonna take it and because she refused her doctor said she was endangering her baby When alisha got home after this she sheriffs surrounded her house. They took her in shackles to jail They brought her finally in front of a family court and as you can see here She was never appointed a lawyer her fetus got a legal guardian And they required her to be detained in a drug treatment center inpatient for two and a half months Next is cc mcdonald and like so many transgender women as well here Especially trans women of color and especially trans women from low-income communities cc lived with daily threats really life-threatening Violence through her whole life by people and by police and so one night Cc and her friends were walking past a group of white people and the white people started to shout slurs at her They started to attack her and her friends actually once smashed a bottle over cc's face and sliced it open Another member of the group came to try to physically attack cc and for defending her life Cc was charged with second-degree murder and she faced 25 years in prison She actually played guilty as opposed to understandably risked that 25 years and she still ended up serving years in prison And finally we have one of igas one of was a woman who's uh living in this country for 20 years She'd come here from mexico When she was nine months pregnant she got pulled over for a traffic violation And because she couldn't produce a driver's license the police officer decided to arrest her and take her to jail Even though she had two kids in the car. She was four days away from her due date When she was in jail, there was a federal immigration agent who was stationed there They ran a background check on her they found that she was undocumented and after that they just held her in jail They wouldn't let her talk to anybody not even her husband So all of these cases are really they're you know, they're not unique unfortunately in this country They're all bound together by what the true forces that really drive our criminal justice system And by this massive abuse of state power on poor people and people of color in this country And for cc and for wana they also exemplify just the degradation that defines life in prison And the specific degradation that happens when you're an incarcerated woman or when you're an incarcerated trans woman So for cc she had to serve her time in a men's prison That's very common that usually happens to trans women. She was denied medical care She was thrown in solitary which prison officials often justify to say that they're protecting Trans women and trans women do need protection in prison because they're at serious risk for sexual assault But we all know in this audience that putting someone in Room the size of a cage the size of an elevator for 23 hours a day with no human contact. That's not protection That's torture. So So for wana she had to endure the horror of being shackled before during and after she gave birth to her son They didn't allow anybody to be in the delivery room with her. She was alone They separated from her from her newborn right after and they even denied her medical care after for Breast infection. She got because they wouldn't let her have a breast pump So we have found in our work This is the last part in our work that many of the things that I've talked about actually happen right here In new york state prisons to women So we're at the final stages of completing a five-year study on reproductive health We hope you all sign up to to get a copy and what we found was deeply disturbing We found that there are serious and severe delays in gyn care often traumatizing in poor care We found that women are routinely dismissed and disregarded by doctors We found that women are routinely denied access to things as basic as sanitary napkins and toilet paper We found that women are routinely denied access to things like contraception even contraception When it has nothing to do with pregnancy prevention women are denied that too We found that pregnant women are often forced to live in housing. That's too cold too hot or infested with bugs And that they're also denied adequate access to food We found that solitary is severely overused for women in general and that pregnant women can be and are put in solitary Where they're at risk for even worse care and even worse pregnancy outcomes We found that women are routinely separated from their newborns when they give birth and routinely forced to give birth Without any support at all and we found that women are shackled throughout their entire pregnancies in new york state And that a law that we helped pass with our allies in 2009 that bans shackling of incarcerated pregnant women during labor An extraordinary you need a law to actually ban that we found that that law is being routinely violated and that women are still being shackled So just to end um today is about identifying the problems and about hearing and listening to women Who have actually experienced this and who are working for change It's also about figuring out what solutions are and so we have a number of really powerful campaigns that are going on Right now we encourage you all to get involved and a number of organizations our organization and others that are running very powerful campaigns And we'll tell you more about how to get involved in those These are only a few of them But one of the most powerful things that we can do and one of the most important things we can do Is actually to listen to and be guided by the experience and the expertise of the women who are living this and who have lived This and so all the women I talked about before are examples of this leadership And so you can see that there's swana. There's sisi. There's shinisha and there's marissa And the women who we work with in our organization and our project every day and our coalition for women prisoners are also examples Of this leadership in fighting for change on the front lines Fighting to make sure that women don't have to walk the road that they walked and don't have to experience the brutality that they experience and we are totally honored to partner with such strong and powerful women And we have many women who are recognizing themselves who are up there on the screen because we Took the pictures of them and many more who are not represented on that screen But we are so honored and we're so honored that we actually get to hear From many of those women today. So that's what this program is about and it's my honor to introduce the panels next The next pass i'm donna aine davis And i'm an associate professor of anthropology at queen's college and at the graduate center in new york city I've done research in the united states and in namibia in southern africa And what I look at is how women of color live policy how they live under welfare reform policy How they live under policies related to hiv aids how they live under domestic violence policy and how they live under regressive Reproductive policy It is my incredible honor to be moderating this panel with these amazing amazing women And I would like to introduce each of them Right next to me is tina tinen tina is a member of the coalition for women prisoners a new york statewide alliance that advocates on issues Concerning incarcerated and formerly incarcerated women their families and their communities She's currently working as an intern for the correctional associations women in prison project She's a native new yorker who studied at westchester community college And is featured in an upcoming video about the experiences of women who gave birth while incarcerated Next we have maria caravallo Who's also a member of the coalition for women prisoners? The new york statewide alliance She is Working with incarcerated and formerly incarcerated women their families and their communities and is a native of pennsylvania currently residing in queens And she's a working mom who is also featured in the upcoming educational video about the experiences of women who gave birth while incarcerated Next we have kathryn cross kathryn is a pizza loving feminist sociologist trans latina An amateur slug herder Working on her phd at the cuny graduate center When she is not studying or gaming she can be found at the sylvia revero law project And her blog can be found at is it quinae? Quinae.com quinae.com Her writing has appeared has appeared in women's studies quarterly bitch magazine And questioning transphobia. She is also co-editor of the border house And next we have ursalina maranda Ursalina is a member of the coalition for women prisoners the new york statewide co alliance She is a native of the bronx And currently resides in the bronx and works as an avon manager Ursalina is also featured in the upcoming educational video about the experiences of women who gave birth while incarcerated And finally we have jaya vasandani Jaya is the associate director of the correctional associations women in prison project Where she coordinates the project's prison monitoring community organizing and legislative advocacy work Prior to coming to the correctional association Jaya worked in the field of federal and state policy advocacy on women's rights Issues as a policy association Associate at the now legal defense and education fund and the center for women's policy studies in washington Jaya received her jd from the benjamin cordosa school of law And a bachelor's in foreign service From georgetown university can we give them a round of applause? Thank you tamar for that incredible overview. It's so Shocking and distressing but the amazing thing is is that we've got work to do and a lot of the work is being done by the women here So i'm going to ask jaya the first question So we heard from tamar that in the united states one out of 20 women are pregnant at the time of their incarceration And that about 2000 women give birth in prison or jail annually And so when the general public thinks of prison being pregnant and giving birth while incarcerated That's actually really not on the radar of the general public, right? So the ca is a prison watch organization that monitors the conditions in new york state prisons What has the monitoring work revealed about this issue? Thanks. I think what we heard from tamar really shows that kind of the criminal justice systems Kind of punishment paradigm the need to continually punish people over and over and over again Really plays out in gender specific ways in the women's prisons And in fact the policies of the prisons and the correctional facilities Kind of reinforce the stigma and this need to punish One of the main ways we've seen this happen I'll play out rather with pregnant women is kind of the dehumanizing treatment that they receive from staff in the prisons And that's both kind of correction officers and also the medical staff And by the fact that these medical providers and these co's or correctional officers Are really allowed to behave that way because there's very little oversight and accountability over their actions um I guess you know in prison culture There's an underlying presumption that women in prison are con artists. They're manipulators They're always trying to get one over you. So if a woman goes to the medical building in the prison to seek health care There's already an assumption that you know, she's trying to game the system just so she can get drugs and get high Um interactions as you heard from tamar with medical staff are often rushed and women's assessments about their very own bodies are dismissed There was um a one woman who there are many women who have served decades in prison But one woman comes to mind right now and she said it perfectly When she had said that, you know, we are seen as symptoms and complaints rather than whole people um Another way that we kind of see this perpetual punishment paradigm play out in the women's prisons is really in kind of the daily Conditions of confinement that pregnant women have to endure Everything from the housing conditions to the food to the childbirth experience and everything in between and certainly tina and maria And ursalina can talk more about it So I won't go into detail But I do want to just touch on one piece that we also heard tamar talk about which is around violations of new york state's anti shackling law um And shackling is kind of a good example Of how stigmatized women in prison are because at the core It's really the devaluing of women that makes us feel that it's okay to shackle shackle women So what do we mean when we say shackle in new york state shackle shackling means handcuffs ankle shackles A waste chain and something they call a black box which essentially is looks like a break It's made of metal and it's in between the handcuffs through there Another chain is attached between your waste chain to your handcuffs to further restrict movement All people who are incarcerated in new york state man or woman pregnant or not are always shackled whenever they leave the facility So when you're getting transferred between prisons, which could be You know anywhere from a two hour to a 15 hour ride on a bus When you're going to a court visit if you're going to an outside medical Visit to a hospital you are fully shackled And it's absolutely legal in new york state to shackle pregnant women And it is a common practice throughout their pregnancy at all trimesters And so that means we have pregnant women many who we spoke to in our study Who were shackled like I said for 10 12 hours on a bus ride from albion correctional facility Which is the largest women's prison in new york by the canadian border down to bedford hills The bus did not stop for the entire 12 hours often Pregnant women are shackled about all people but certainly it applies to pregnant women are shackled to another person Who's also fully shackled? And because your movement is so restricted when you use the bathroom on the bus Which of course doesn't stop and if you're pregnant you tend to need to go to the bathroom more often You have to have the other person you're shackled to pull your pants down for you So just as kind of an example of the Total lack of respect and the removal of all personal autonomy that we as a society seem to put up with and think that it's okay Um to to do the pregnant women I'm going to read quickly a part of a letter that we received from a woman at bedford hills about this experience When I came from albion to bedford I was in full restraints during the 11 hour bus ride shackles cuffs waist chain black box at four and a half months pregnant It was an awful experience. I will never forget The pressure of the chain on my growing belly was so uncomfortable not being able to stretch or do anything I went to the bathroom by myself wiggling trying to pull up and down my pants without falling while the bus was moving My wrists were bruised afterwards It took at least 10 minutes to pee and dress myself It was very difficult trying to maneuver down the crowded aisle as well as trying to pull my pants up and down fully shackled It's something that I hope no other woman pregnant or otherwise has to go through As termar mentioned in 2009 the coalition for women prisoners, which we coordinate Working with many other organizations led the effort to pass a law in new york state that bans the shackling of pregnant women during childbirth So that's labor delivery and recovery and also banned shackling During transportation to the hospital for the purpose of giving birth and going back to the prison after they've delivered their child In our five-year study. We spoke to 27 women who had given birth after 2009 and of those 27 23 had been shackled in violation of the law and three of them are sitting right here with me on this panel Tina So Jaya talked about the stigma and the perpetual punishment And how that plays out for women through the inhumane treatment by correction officers and by medical staff Can you explain um, both where you were When you were incarcerated and where and can you talk a little bit more about how pregnant women are treated by the correctional officers? I was in bed for the hills from 2011 until 2012 It was not the first felony time that I had served But it was the worst felony time I served Being insulted by officers is an everyday thing And never had problems with the people I was locked up It was always officers arguments with officers and officers insulting me I was informed. I was pregnant During my intake on rikers island Where I was kept on methadone so that I didn't go through heroin withdrawals and lose my child I was transferred to bedford hills When I was five months pregnant bedford hills does not dispense methadone That means that from the time I was five months pregnant when I first arrived at bedford Until the day I gave birth to my son I was taken out To the clinic in shackles the comments that were made regarding myself and my unborn child are things that Are difficult to say out loud In retrospect It doesn't even seem real in a way. It may have helped me decide that I had no choice But to rise above the level of disrespect is something that either you will succumb to and go back to using drugs To forget what you have endured. I'm grateful that I came home from prison with my son I will not leave him behind in the real world They would ask me out of line and intrusive questions just ridiculous comments Along the lines of I cannot believe you Are going to have a baby as if as if I was going to give birth to a demon One day at the treatment center. I took a couple of steps towards a nurse who motioned me to The officer escorting me Said if I ever moved without her permission, she would shoot me She said it in in a room full of people regular people Like oh, it's just an inmate. I can say or do whatever I want to it Once you leave the facility and you're alone with two officers Whatever they say goes and the facility at least you have a chance to possibly call a sergeant Oftentimes transporting officers were just like Completely confused when I would say no no no you don't put the waist chain on me They would cuff my hands and ankles and a lot of officers I would have to call a sergeant to clarify that When we would leave every day it was always an argument because The officers would force me to walk up a ramp Instead of just taking two stairs you can walk down two stairs or go Around this wheelchair ramp. Okay. I have to comply risk a ticket risk going to solitary risk losing my child So I'm forced to take the ramp even on a cold morning It was icy it was cold and I slipped you can't you can't like catch yourself when your hand cuffed I slipped one morning. I the rug slipped from under me being strip searched every morning. I was strip searched My my belly it was so big and they want you to squat all the way down to the floor turn around squat again Even though I was never out of an officer's line of vision Even if I had to use the lady's room they're on you every minute, but still strip when you leave strip when you come back One time a driver took me we pull up to the clinic and Instead of just getting out of the van he insisted that I get lowered To the street on a wheelchair ramp At first he's pressing the buttons. He didn't even really know how to operate this wheelchair lift Not the ramp. This is the lift and At first I didn't think he was serious Finally, I'm no no. I'm not going on the ramp. I had to go on the ramp So on a street with people eight months pregnant not just wearing prison greens wearing the pregnant outfit for pregnant inmates like a big white shirt Hand cuffed of course handcuffed on the wheelchair lift All that was missing was the bullhorn. You know everybody's looking so all that's missing is the bullhorn saying it's here It's now it's pregnant. It's on methadone. It was like I can't even call embarrassing. There's so there's words. I can't describe that But of course I had to get on the wheelchair lift I was in full blown labor going to the hospital I gave birth 19 minutes after Arriving to westchester county medical center And I would non-violent crime ready to be released seven months. I was shackled in the ambulance the day I brought my Son home from the hospital. I was fully shackled Waste chain everything you and you you have to carry your Newborn in the car seat and you can only lift your arms like five inches from you It's awkward Everything was nice when I gave birth to my son Until the officer's comments came Oh, don't drop your baby. Oh And it just made me feel like they they were basically saying oh, you're not worthy of having this thing they were just like and just quickly describe my experience with medical After coming home to the real world after seeing my medical doctor a few times I emailed her just thanking her for being so thorough for answering my questions For like looking at me. I just was like wow. I was amazed. I thought she was incredible But then I realized that's how it works in the real world if your medical doctor says i'm sending prescriptions to the pharmacy Because at bedford you risk waiting on a pharmacy line of like 70 100 women just to get to the window nothing's there You're welcome Ursulina Jaya mentioned that one of the ways that perpetual punishment plays out in the daily lives of pregnant women She talks about the child care birth the childbirth process What are some of the experiences and what was the childbirth experience? For women in prison like and can you also tell us Where when and where you were incarcerated? Okay I was incarcerated from march 2012 to november 2012 at befford hills correctional facility I was three months pregnant when I got to befford Prison is hard for both men and women who are incarcerated But some of the difficult experience for pregnant women in prison are the lack of food when you're starving and pregnant The extra pregnancy snack you get is a warm carton of milk A bologna sandwich which pregnant women in the community are told to avoid And a very small piece of fruit And if you're fortunate to have someone on the outside to send you a package of food that you can eat and that you can have When we had appointments to see the doctor at the prism medical unit We were forced to sit on hard metal benches without back support for four to six hours If we tried to lay down because our backs hurt we were yelled yelled at or got a disciplinary ticket Like all other prisoners we are pat frisk and strip frisk every time we have a visit in the visiting room or leave the facility for an appointment There was even one woman who was pat frisk after her water broke before she could leave in the ambulance to the delivery room To deliver her child at the hospital Also when you are getting your sonogram the policy is to not let the woman know the sex of the baby And in my case a female officer that accompanied me was nice enough to ask me if I wanted to know the sex of my child I replied yes That's when the doctor at the hospital told me that I was having a girl In terms of childbirth experience in prison The nurses often dismiss us when we tell them that we are in labor or that we're having contractions When we get in the in the van or the ambulance to go to the hospital a lot of women are put in shackles I was put in handcuffs handcuffs Even though I was in labor and this is a violation of the new york state law For 40 minute for a 40 minute ride to the hospital a doctor told me I was not dilated enough that I can go back home I looked at her and said I'm going to prison. I'm not going home The second time I went to the hospital one of the officers tried to cuff me again Then that's when ems told them that if they cuffed me that they were not taking me to the hospital Most women are not so lucky As me and were shackled You're not allowed to have anyone with you during childbirth Not even a family member who is on your approved the visiting list But the nurses called my mom and I was able to speak to my mom before my daughter was born At the hospital the officer is with you at all times There is no privacy with the doctor even when you are in labor. There is absolutely no way you are going to try to run The officer has to even be in the room when your child is coming out of your body You have no rights over your own body After your baby is born the baby is taken to the hospital nursery and women are taken to the prison ward at the hospital Therefore we have to rely on officers goodwill to take us often in wheelchairs with ankle restraints To see the baby in the hospital nursery If we want to breastfeed the officer will not leave the room Sometimes if the officer takes too long to take us to see the baby the nurse will already have fed the baby formula I was very lucky because I was able to be on the maternity ward with my with general population And have my daughter with me the whole time I was in the hospital Most women don't get this chance Then of course as Tina mentioned on the way back to the prison They often shackle women so they can't tend to their babies who are crying in the car seat And also at one point I had a social worker from child services come to my room and speak to me She introduced herself and asked if I knew what I was going to do with my baby and I replied. Yes She's going back with her mother You participated in the nursery program and that you were able to live with your child for several months Can you tell us where you were incarcerated? And something about the nursery and what was it like to have your child with you? Well, I was incarcerated from 2009 to 2011. I was five months pregnant when I got to Bedford Uh, yeah, me Tina and our Selena we were in the nursery around the same time But not everyone is so lucky to participate in the nursery In fact, I was worried that I was not going to get In that I was not going to get into the nursery because I have a prior child welfare case Which is not environment Women are often denied the nursery just because child welfare cases or because they are convicted of a violent crime It has nothing to do with what they actually did This is a major problem because there's not really any support For women who don't get into the nursery And if they don't get into the nursery and have nobody in the outside They can lose Their baby forever go into the system and get lost um Also after the nurse at also For women who get in the nursery you usually don't find out until the very end I Applied in the nursery when I got to Bedford when I was five months pregnant And um, I didn't know I was accepted to a nursery until a month before I gave birth Some women don't even find out that they're qualified for the nursery until They give birth and You know, you're worried. It's my child going back with me or or they come to pick up my child because I have no family If you do get into the nursery It's um, it's really wonderful It's wonderful You're allowed to be there with your baby until your baby turns one or you can get an extension until your baby turns 18 months I was granted the extension to stay with my daughter until she was 18 months, but that never happened The civilian staff from our children who won the nursery program are wonderful beautiful people They really care about the moms and they help you support I'm sorry. This is hard The other moms are wonderful The other moms are wonderful When I came when I came to the nursery with my daughter I was embarrassed because I have other kids and I didn't know how to take care of a baby Being a mother of other kids. I just didn't know what to do with my daughter And they helped me a lot like they were there for me I had lost my other kids to the system because I Was an attic years ago and thank god that's not me no more Um, I'm sorry. I didn't know this was going to be this hard Sorry, can you take your time? Other moms showed me how to take care of my daughter like Once I had a difficult time because my daughter was colicky And she didn't stop crying for hours and I had no idea what to do So I laid on the bed. I put my daughter on the crib and just Laid on the bed and covered myself with the pillow And then I didn't hear my my daughter crying no more because one of the mothers came to take her out the room And I got some sleep Because of the nursery Because of the nursery and the staff At our children I was able to learn To be a good mom And my daughter's in my life The only bad thing about the nursery is that you're always afraid of doing something wrong And being kicked off the nursery This means that you go back into general population and maybe even solitary confinement Some woman gets transferred to IBM prison, which is very far away near canada Where it's difficult for your family to visit you and the baby is sent out to live with some of Someone in your family or to foster care You could lose your baby forever. I was blessed that my daughter went to our children Other officers on the nursery constantly remind you that being on the prison nursery is a privilege That could be taken away from you at any moment You're always walking on eggshells because you're so afraid And you do whatever they tell you to do There is also a lot of anger and jealousy from the officers Even for things like your baby is getting free items such as diapers pacifiers from the civilian staff There are some strange prison rules that you have to follow on the nursery For example, we are forced to do difficult chores such as buffing the floors Of the housing unit just after days given birth Even if you had a c-session A number of women began bleeding after doing chores Some women who had c-sessions had their staples bust open There are also rules There are also rules against doing normal things that people can People on the outside do every day For example, you have to put your baby in the stroller and bring them into the bathroom while you shower Your baby got to sit there in the stroller. You can't give your baby to an old body We are not allowed to ask anyone to watch them for us or leave them in the crib while they are sleeping If you're playing with your baby in your bed and we both fall asleep You can get a misbehavior ticket. In fact, I was kicked out of the nursery My baby was sent to our children because I fell asleep With my baby in the bed when being a couple times That was the worst Catherine, tomorrow was talking earlier and defining reproductive justice and acknowledging That that term was coined by women of color advocates to move the discussion about reproductive health and rights Beyond activism I'm sorry beyond abortion and beyond the discussion of choice right for middle-class white women So that it could address the structural issues for women who are not in the center of privileged spaces You've written and spoken publicly about the About reproductive justice and how it's constructed in various ways and how it's related to the body all bodies Can you tell us about the connection between trans issues and reproductive justice and specifically? Can you tell us how it connects to what these women are talking about today? Well Certainly if you look at the issue of abortion It's sort of the signature battleground that people understand as sort of reproductive rights terrain and so forth But what is less well understood is why abortion Became such a big issue in the first place in a patriarchal society It's not because of abortion in and of itself but because patriarchy is intimately concerned with Women's bodies with gendered bodies and with policing those bodies And so when you recognize that that's the core of reproductive injustice about denying people their bodily autonomy That allows you to understand that abortion is not the only issue You can go beyond that and see connections to other people who have their bodies rigorously policed Prison is a site of state control and management of people deemed by the state To be unworthy Unworthy citizens and not even human And because of this the regimes of bodily control exercised especially in the united states are brutal and torturous People are treated as if they are not people as if they are not human This happens precisely because we believe as a society that bodily control is a privilege that one must earn Rather than a fundamental human and civil right and so and so Everyone in prison To one degree or another in one fashion or another is having their body Policed everything we take for granted for those of us who are living on the outside As certainly you've heard today even very simple things like going to the bathroom are rigorously policed in accordance with the sense that prison Must be punishment upon punishment upon punishment Reinscribing the status of undesirable upon the body of the prisoner day in and day out in every activity And so that is in part the reason that Pregnant women are treated with such disdain in prison because they are considered inherently simply by dint of being in the prison environment Unworthy mothers and the treatment that accrues to them is the result of that to make a grotesque parody of birthing of being a mother and What happens to transgender women in many ways comes from the same place of wanting to police and punish Degrade and destroy The person in question the belief that as a human being as a civil subject They cannot exist and they are unworthy and you do this You destroy them slowly through the grinding processes of institutionalized torture by Ensuring that they do not control their bodies It is the most fundamental way that you can get inside a person and destroy them from within And that and so whether you're looking at any given gender or any given segment of the prison population Prison simply find the most effective way to do that with the target population for pregnant cisgender women That means Birth shackling that means all of the rigorous tortures that you've heard here today for transgender women That can mean solitary confinement. That can mean institutional institutional blindness to prison rape Trans women are often gang raped in prison raped by the prison guards beaten by prison guards simply for expressing their genders and There is very little that's done to stop this and the prison administration often turns a blind eye to the terrifying policing that cisgender male prisoners will inflict on trans women Precisely because that is a passive and unofficial form of punishment that prison officials and prison guards Seek to have inflicted that they know that the prisoners will do a certain amount of dirty work for them and attacking Violating and destroying these trans women All of this comes back to bodily control about who is deemed worthy of even having a body Who is deemed worthy of controlling their body who is deemed worthy of fundamental human autonomy? And when you look at how our society Treats those who are incarcerated or even who are formally incarcerated the vicious stigma applied to them is such That the institutional logic of prisons in and of themselves Demands that they not be treated as human and the way to do this most efficiently The state has devised rigorous tortures to execute is to deny them their bodily autonomy. So that's the connection Thank you. Thank you We're we're moving through time very quickly. Um, and I was I think I can ask one more question Um, but I'm going to ask two Moderators prerogative, um the question that I want to ask uh To Jaya is how is it that we all can get involved in advocacy on this issue? Very easy. Um, there's lots of ways to get involved We're you know, we're running this major campaign around reproductive justice for women in prisons Specifically around the issue of shackling We're drafting a bill that we're going to be introducing in the 2015 legislative session that starts in january that would both Strengthen the enforcement mechanisms for the 2009 law But also expand protections for women throughout their pregnancy because as I mentioned and you heard from these women from tomorrow It's actually entirely legal to shackle women at any point of their pregnancy Except during childbirth, which they still violate anyway There's lots of literature Information about our meetings and how to get involved outside. So I hope you'll take some on your way out And that's all I'm going to say so you can ask the other question Okay So my last one thing I do want to say is that the best way to actually Stop the shackling of pregnant women and this is actually part of our campaign Is that we need to stop incarcerating pregnant women to begin with and we need to stop incarcerating women to begin with So So that's certainly part of our campaign and until that happens though these laws need to get passed. Thank you So tina or selena and maria Can you just tell us how things are going for you really quickly and how are you kids? Okay, I'll go first This is my baby I wouldn't be here right now if it wasn't for her She's in pre-k. She's four years old and she's the best thing in my life. Thank you This is my daughter Um, her name is iraia. She just turned two in august. She's a bundle of joy and a small pain in my butt but I mean, yeah, and I'm engaged Yeah, that's it. I don't want to talk to you Everything is good As long as I'm in the free world. I'm good I'm still on parole. So it's not my life a hundred percent yet, but in june it will be This is my son There'll be three in november We have an apartment. I I have a housing through supportive housing through fortune society Um, I just I'm really enjoying interning with the correctional association That that came about through taking an advocacy class from Andrea it was like an incredible It's incredible eye-opening experience. Um Also the fortune society helped me a lot I can honestly say that the Real world is not exactly felony friendly like just one small example My child was in a daycare not the one he's in now And someone I was formerly incarcerated with happened to be in the same daycare This fool told the woman who runs the daycare that we met in prison And nobody at that daycare said hi or buy to me anymore. They'd be like hi Blake Oh buy a break and just ignored me after that. So every day is a struggle, but I'm up for the challenge I um, I want to thank each of you for sharing your experiences Sharing the analyses with us today and I want to thank you the audience For being here and for listening And I think if uh, tina and the other women are up for a challenge Then we need to be up for a challenge. There's obviously a lot of work that needs to be done And we must not fail to do our part. Thank you Thank you I think that'll be after the at the end. Um, I'm I'm in awe of these women So I I did some time in 2004 And I asked my family To not visit me because I did not want to endure strip searches and other things like that, but um, I had an eight year old daughter at the time And they said that she cried for me every single day If they can please bring her and I agreed We sat in the visit visit visiting room and there was an officer that Saw that my daughter was crying when the visit was over and they Extended my visit for three hours um She sat in my lap the whole time as if she were a baby and she was sniffing my neck um And she didn't want to leave so when I went back to my dorm I wrote to her After our visit, I went back to the dorm. I envisioned little girls dancing ballet in rare form You were in front as you led Black leotards and tutus with faces blushed of red Without you I will be lost. I am alive and have faith and hope instead I took the wrong path once again Material possessions are unimportant. It should be my time and love I should invest Nurture you till the till it's time for you to leave the nest Guide you and provide the rules for you to abide I'm supposed to be the source that sustains There's a reason you emerge from my womb and my blood runs through your veins I am drowning in an ocean of depression and despair Life is not fair Every day I wake up to a nightmare To be away from you was not my intention My soul is dying. You are my inspiration You are my angel sent from above You are always there for me when push comes to shove For all the tears that have fallen from your beautiful eyes. I am sorry. I apologize I must prepare you for the struggles women face with style and grace Life will be hard, but you mustn't quit Don't let society dictate what you will do or who you will be No matter how many times you fall stand tall Today it may rain, but tomorrow the sun will arise Remember all of these things in the event of my demise And I'm a an assistant professor in the community health program Part of the cuny school of public health, but I'm also a scholar activist. That's How I identify myself and I have had the privilege and honor of serving for over a decade On the board of sister song women of color reproductive justice collective My research scholarship activism touched the lives of women young people I also recognize the impact of many systems on many people's lives So it's also those who care for women and children And I want to introduce our panelists To my far right I introduce to you Who is a member of the coalition for women prisoners A new york statewide alliance that advocates on issues concerning incarcerated and formerly incarcerated women their families and their communities Where she worked on the campaign to obtain more rights for incarcerated parents with children in the child welfare system Also known as asfa She was she has appeared In our times press and women's e-news and has been a guest speaker at queensboro community college She has a twin aged son named avry smith Who I believe is here No, he didn't he wasn't able to join us And Next I'd like to introduce to you bridget gibbs Also a member of the coalition for women prisoners in the house, right So I don't have to tell you who they are or what they do Bridget Has worked on the campaign to obtain alternative sentencing for survivor defendants in domestic violence situations She is a student at bronx community college and mother of two daughters And bridget is featured in the coalition's film on the domestic violence survivors justice act campaign And last and certainly not least to my immediate right. I introduce to you donna hilton Donna is a community health advocate for the coming home program of st Luke's roosevelt hospital in new york city A special transition case management support program designed specifically for people who have been incarcerated and are returning to the community Donna is also an active member of the coalition for women prisoners She has a bachelor of science degree in behavioral science and a master of arts degree in english from mercy college And has recently started her own nonprofit initiative from life to life Yes I got locked up in oh five and I came home in 2008 In my heart my mind and my soul. I already know um, I never want to go. I never want to be incarcerated again And I just want to do the right thing by my kids because they were the ones that really suffered the most I heard through one of my kids that my daughter. Kayla was adopted It hurt me I'm just sorry. I couldn't you know be there for her and be there with her and that she couldn't be by my side I'll get that call one day Saying are you my mother and I'll be there to open my arms and just hold her So I just I just wait for that day Because I just know one day it's gonna happen It was a special bond between me and Kayla And that's just something that is never going to be broken So when I see her it'll be like I was always there for her and she was always in my heart And that's where she'll stay until she returns I want her to know that I do love her And I miss her But I couldn't be there at the time and She's going and I don't I don't want her to hate me Because of what I've done Your mom's locked up in prison behind bars or behind the doors. That's locked Just gotta Hold on Pray that your mom come out because they used to pray every night before I went to visit my mom come out The people if I work gonna be adopted. I'm a real family The lady's not my real mom's the dad's not my real dad and the brother's sister's not mine I want to live with my own family and not with some other family The hardest thing was me not seeing her and me not kissing her every day me not telling her I love her Like you don't have a mother and you see other kids with their moms and they're all happy and they're doing family stuff And your mom's locked up Every breath I had every time I blew out a candle I would wish them a mom come out person I recently did two years An incarceration and to be out here and to start this positive new life that I have out here It's incredible and to be able to do it with my child is a complete blessing There's just no love like a mother and her child I'm grateful to have her and that she Has changed me She keeps me very strong very focused very motivated the fear of losing her letting her down her She deserves the best mother that she can possibly get and I want to be that mom for her I don't want anybody else to Comfort her when she's crying or tuck her in bed at night and I know that if I Let her down and let myself down then I won't be raising her Devastate me My life is so much better with her than without her Every mother deserves a second chance to love their child and be a mother Maria and Tina and Ursulina Share their their tears of truth with us um about Being pregnant and birthing while in prison We wanted to also talk about the impact of incarceration on mothers In their role as parents And on parenting You know after and beyond incarceration so One of the primary strategies of sister song and reproductive justice movement is for women to tell their stories I wanted to ask each of our guests To tell us what happened with you to share your stories and how you felt about Being incarcerated or formerly incarcerated has criminalized um Mothers are you in specifically and to tell us What happened with you and I thought we'd begin with Bridget of those of you that don't know I am a domestic um violent survivor as well um I was incarcerated in 1996 and 1997 westchester county um for drugs um my abuser Was a um big time dealer and he had me selling drugs So uh when they came to arrest him however, he was not there um me being scared and shook Uh not to give up his information. Um I was taken um to jail for not cooperating and also the drugs that were found in the house um I was four and a half months pregnant at the time when I got arrested So I went to jail pregnant Uh during my incarceration. I experienced all of those things that those former ladies that were just on the last panel spoke about um the abuse from the co And every now and then like one of the young ladies said you can catch a captain or a lieutenant if you were lucky Um, if not, you just had to endure that. Um, you were scrutinized because of who you were and the crime that you committed Uh I gave birth um in jail Every visit that I went to of course, I was also shackled For those that didn't hear it before the black box The round your waist and down to your feet the shackles on your feet That was every visit to the hospital every Time you had to go to court Whenever you had to go and leave the prison. That's how you were Um, as as as they say caught it That's how they caught it you around because they never treated you like a human So you felt like you're just being caught it around Um when I went into labor on the eve that I went into labor Um, I had to convince the co that was actually in labor Um, that took a little bit of time. I began to bleed Uh going there they fully shackled me Once I got there, uh They handcuffed me to the gurney Took me in There's no privacy Um, I had the child of course it was early because again, I didn't get the The acquired a correct medical treatment that I should have gotten so I had an infection and that caused me to go into labor early um the Doctor was angry because he felt like I should they should have taken the cuffs off and the shackles and all of those things off However, um The only thing they did do was release the black box and take my hand and put it to the gurney. Um, I gave birth Uh, the child Passed away Uh The worst Um, I said I wasn't gonna cry the child died Uh The co was there through the whole thing Uh, there was not even a remorseful thing that came out of his mouth Except for how long is she going to have to stay here after this Uh I went through those emotions those feelings those things all by myself. They don't allow family to come So you have to go through those things by yourself They then um Took me to a ward where The prison ward was filled at the time so I had to stay on regular maternity leave now All these other people are having babies and their babies are okay And my child passed away and I'm getting nothing no counseling No one's talking to me about anything nobody's asking me how I'm feeling or any of those things So I have to endure all of those things alone And I have to go through all those feelings alone and I have nobody but me and my god that I'm talking to Constantly as I'm going through this meanwhile. They forgot to take one of the shackles off my feet So I still got one on and this is how I gave birth And uh, it was it was the most unhuman Thing that I have ever experienced in my life Um for me to be dehumanized like that Was something that I never wish on anyone Uh going through that experience after a while they had an opening and then they didn't they didn't move me to The prison ward. Uh, I had a couple of stitches So You know, they they you know after after you give birth and you go through all those things when they bring you back From the prison they bring you back shack or the knoll after the birth and all of that You like the young lady said you still have to be a part of the nursery ward. You still have to clean After birth you still have to act as if Everything is okay. Although you went through, you know losing your child You still have to go through those motions as if you can you can you have to do this You have to follow each and every rule because if not you get a disciplinary So it's either you do or you don't You do what you have to do in that place just to survive Because you want to survive I had I had a previous child that was on the outside that was being taken care of by my family. Thank god Uh, my mother and father was you know, they were living then so they took custody of my daughter Who would come to visit and have to be strip search every time she came to visit as well You're still constantly strip search every time Your children are strip search right along with you It's like they're coming into prison as well So, um That's just something that I experienced and I hope to never have to experience again For going through what I say was my turn in life when I didn't know no better I know better now So I feel like everybody deserves a second chance and this is my How you doing Charmaine? Unlike unlike the majority of the ladies that spoke today My criminalization came after The birth of my son Like I know we focus a lot on Incarceration issues, but I had issues before I became an incarcerated like I have a substance abuse history which led To my incarceration Which subsequently led to my son being removed like my son wasn't born While I was incarcerated my son was born You know, um, my son was born with positive toxicology And um Thus subsequently removed from my home um Which then in turn because of The pre-existence of substance abuse issues that were never addressed Led to my criminal lifestyle and then me being incarcerated um Once becoming incarcerated It becomes a matter of um You're focusing on No rehabilitation is being focused on It's just the jail time You know, no, um Support is being given For why ultimately i'm incarcerated I'm not incarcerated because i'm a bad person I'm incarcerated because I have an underlying issue and then when you seek and search for Like my son is important granted And the issue is to get him back But I can't get him back until I get well And if no steps are being made to find out What is causing me to be sick? How whole or wealthy or healthy am I really When I get back Absolutely, and you've both touched upon these structural issues that happened both before and after and continue and are exacerbated after incarceration um Donna would you speak to that kind of on a larger Level in terms of what you've seen through You know your time and and I just have to you know say donna was instrumental in creating the very program That you know many of the children have been cared for and you know, we don't have enough of them But I just wanted to say that as well and honor that in this in this space. It's very uh What germane said is very key um to Look at if we want to talk about criminalization criminalization of people as a whole especially Black and brown people and that's what we're talking about black and brown women. Um, Especially and you know going back to the statistics that were shown earlier For one out of every 20 black women that's arrested One's pregnant Let's break that down to maybe every 15 or 16 the rest 15 or 16 of them have children So they're not even pregnant. They already have children So I might even be low in my number. I think it might be a little higher But from my 27 years of being incarcerated I'm going by what I remember and the stuff that we have researched and have seen In I've seen personally in those years that we're looking at a system That Is not giving It's not paying attention to what it's doing to Society to people to communities to um Family, you know to the structures of family understandably I mean all of us that were incarcerated Understand we did something we did something wrong. We made a mistake But as I often say should we be defined by those mistakes? No Like charmaine is saying we need to understand what happened what led up to it, you know things led up to these situations and stuff Like bridget she was in a domestic violence situation I'm pretty sure she didn't want to do a lot of the things that she was Doing but she was in a situation. She didn't know how to get out of I myself was very young I didn't understand. I mean those are not excuses, but those are realities, you know, and they're very Factual realities. Those are what we go through, you know and people, you know I was having the conversation before and we were talking about choices and the choices that are in place for people Especially people of color are not that great people say, oh, well, they had choices Why didn't they pick, you know, choose this or choose that you don't know people's choices? We don't really understand the choices that are are in people's lives You know, that's one of the things we have to look at. I mean a person might have a choice I had some choices and I I took those choices I don't have the typical story of why and you know a person going to being in the streets and being a product of The streets. I'm not that story My story would actually just floor you So but the choices that I had I actually took them and those choices were horrible Because those choices were choices that were Choices that the system that were like based in the system and the system Messed me up each and every time as a child The breed to protect me to serve to all all that and did none of those things So we have to go to the root of it and to say what do we As a community as a village and we talked about how the village it takes a village to raise a child It takes us and we as a people. What are we doing wrong? How can we look at it? What can we do to say? To fix it. We know it's broken. We know what's wrong So what can we do? We know we have these stories that we're telling you today and this is how we get it across because what you see On the media right portrayed through media through these shows that are I mean, they're great That gets the door open it gets the story started instigate thoughts it instigates a lot of things that gets you going but Let's face the reality These stories are the real stories here Something's wrong We shouldn't have an incarceration rate that's higher than every other country in this world and we're the most productive and the most Technologically advanced and every other advanced words you can think of in this world And we have the highest incarcerated rate in this world. That just doesn't make any sense. It just doesn't go together It's kind of oxymoronic if you want to look at it, right? So and then and look at the groups of people that we're incarcerating everything is criminalized Today if you jaywalk, you could be arrested and locked up Depending on your color. It could be for a very long time Simply jaywalking Why? Why are we doing that? Why are we ripping apart families? Why are we tearing apart the shred the fabric of families? Why are we doing that? What's wrong? It should we have to stop this and so that's why I You know, I'm involved with what I'm doing and I share my story because you I try to get people to understand hopefully that Something is wrong. Something is deeply wrong And then to look at yourself if you're saying that you want to be involved and that you want to be a part of and you Want to affect change and you want to be part of that change to really look at yourself and say Why am I doing this? Do I really want to do this? Do I really want to be you know, do I really care enough? Because it's not just about the talk. It's about actually doing it. It's about walking. It's about being proactive It's about change. It's about getting involved and saying enough is enough The systems these systems are broken and they have to be fixed And as was pointed out in the first panel and in the overview that you know, there are you know Some steps that are being taken and also that there is some aspect of resistance on the part of Families that have been torn apart Both leading up to incarceration and afterwards. I wonder Bridget if you might share a little bit of your more of your story and particularly your daughter Because we haven't talked as much Speaking about the impact of incarceration on the children themselves Especially as they are as they they age and get older. So if you would please um after Struggling with um the incarceration and that being done with um I went back to my abuser the abuse continued Um, I didn't get any better. Um, he started using the tool system of acs Or Westchester we call it um protective services um So this is how he would use me to do what he wanted me to do and manipulate me You know at the same time by using that particular tool system um So whenever he felt like it because he was a bird winner because he was a person with the money because he was a person that um was in charge of everything he would call And give these accusations of What i'm doing Um, never that he was beating me. Of course, never that he was punishing me Never that, you know, he would he was I had boosters underneath my clothes Never that, you know, police would come, you know, they would give me a half story I'm I'm scared of him. They would never ask him to leave. He would always be right there I was scared and terminated You know what, you know, maybe you might want to get him out the room and then I can tell you But if you're not going to make him leave and I still got to stay here with this man And he's the father of my children. I don't have nowhere else to go You know, so that was the intricate into why I stayed so long But um when I did finally decide to leave, um, again, he called acs Um told him that I was an addict told him that I needed help that I was beating my children That they weren't going to school Yada yada, you know, all these things that are in perfect parent would do Um, my children will remove from me Um, my daughter um to make the long story short. I went through all of that fought acs one Took me three years, but I won Won the rights to my children back Um got my children But I still had a daughter that even though the judge overturned it and gave me back custody Her father lived I had one daughter that was not my abuser's daughter Her father lived in Virginia. He had came up and taken her She would come and primarily visit me, but Because we were in the shelter me and my other daughter My my older daughter was not allowed to stay with us The system said if she didn't come into the shelter with you She's not allowed to have any communication with you or your child while you are living here well My then 16 year old daughter Um said mommy, this is wrong. Why are they doing this? You live in the shelter and I can't come and stay with you You know, I want to finish school here because I'm almost out But when I come I don't want us to be apart. I want to be able to hug Brianna and she misses me when all of these things were true So I was like ash. I don't know what to tell you. She was like it has to be a way And she decided to sue the system So yeah, so she sued the department of homeless services That runs the shelter Um for the right to be able to be with me and her sister and she won And she won and she won And uh, I better represent her right because she asked me to because she couldn't be here today and it really bothered her But um, but uh, she won she won the case So when it was time for her to come back in to stay the same people that were so rude to her and adamant She took that court order and shoved it in their face when I tell you she shoved it I'm going upstairs with my mom and my sister. They had to take the court order. They had to put it on record So from there on which it didn't take me that long because I wasn't even there Practically a year was like I started getting into things and I got into reconnecting All these wonderful things started happening in my life that were good And I kept going with all the good things that were happening that were good and I kept advocating and talking Now I got a voice now. I'm not scared, you know, and uh, I know I'm not going back to this man I don't have to go through that anymore And I want to be able to say I'm not a drug dealer. I don't even really want to do this I just had to do what I had to do to protect myself and my children at that time But god is good because I'm here Yo, I'm here. I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing right now right here Yeah And I have my two daughters with me Yeah, they with me they over they with me they are with me all the time even when they're not here physically they with me They with me my brother's here with me So, you know, just you know, I'll pay you back. Um, the system Is not always the system is always right So I just want to encourage young people to get involved Challenge the laws See what's good. What's wrong? You know, look at the things that are going on, especially in the african-american communities We are so jealous and I'm so glad that my daughter wasn't scared to step up and say Or they ain't going to do nothing. I'm just young and black. They ain't gonna listen that she did take the chance and the opportunity To step out there on that faith and say no, this is my mom. This is my sister. I love you guys I want to be with you, you know, mom, you we're not in that situation no more I want to spend time and she took that initiative So I just want to encourage some other young people You know, they think that nothing can be done something can be done Like Donna said, we need to do it all together Charmaine, is there anything you want? people here to know about The impact your experiences have had on you and your family and just what you'd like them to take away from our conversation here um I don't know like pretty pretty just like I'm just her story. It just amazes me, but you know, um One of the things that and I've seen a fair chance a million times, you know But um like today When it just said termination is forever You know that phrase caught me because You know, my life today is a blessing and a burden and I say that because um Listen to Bridget's story and listen to Donna's story And I think correct me if I'm wrong ladies that I'm the only one that My parents rights were terminated And It's amazing because legally My son is a stranger I have no legal rights to my son And I say that because ironically I work with kids Recently I just had to go and get fingerprinted And the city cleared me To work with real strangers To work with kids that are in fourth and fifth grade like I'm I'm able to take Fourth and fifth graders every day To the park and every day I'm able to miss charming. Can you help me with my homework? Miss charming. Can you and I'm able to do With someone else's child What the law says I can't do with my own You know, um I'm not perfect But I know I love my son You know, um I still have to ask permission Can I come see my son today? Is it okay if I visit my son? But a stranger will allow me to take their child and 10 other kids to the park swimming To do the things that I want to be able to do With my own child. Why because Termination is forever You know, um Don't get me wrong. I think bill clinton in 96 had good intentions When he did this But my son is with my aunt but think about all the other kids that Do get freed up from termination and they don't get adopted You know, um in my in my travels on the substance abuse circuit um, I've run into a young lady who She was if she was in foster care and now she's jumping from substance abuse program the substance abuse program Because she has nowhere to live Because once she got freed from the foster care program, she was left on her own Now she's 22 years old and she has nowhere to go She has no family to call her own so The intentions, you know, they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions It's not doing what it was supposed to do You know, um One of the greatest decisions that I had to make When in the midst of my addiction and I was talking to dr. Roberts the other night on the phone I was getting high with someone and um We were talking and she said well when my daughter came back the first time The first time and she proceeded to tell her story that her child had been taken away And She got high again and they came to get her and I and one of the things that I Groped with for a long time was that I was a bad mother Because I didn't have my son But right then and there when she told me that she had played defense got a daughter back Then went back on the other side and got a daughter again When she told me that I made the decision right then and there that I was not going to do that to my son That if I was not going to stop getting high That I was going to leave him Where he was until I was ready to get my life together And I went into court and I told the judge. I'm not coming back here anymore Until I'm ready to get my life together and by the grace of god, I'm now two years clean It's seven years later It's seven It's seven years later But he's all right. I'm not upset with anything that my aunt is done But it took me seven years to finally realize that I want to be a part of his life You know, um I don't regret Anything I've done Because when I think about the days that I went with no food How do you go with no food and another person goes with no food? My son didn't ask to be here My son did not ask to be here So the things that I went through was for me to go through It wasn't for me to take another person with me through that it's not fear but as far as My criminalization how they could have helped me Yeah, the goal is to get my child back, but How about first help me find a child in me that's lost Because in order for me to be a mother to that child First I have I'm in the process of learning how to be a mother to me Because if my aunt was to tell me right now today you could take him out I have to think about it because I have to learn how to be responsible for me And then I can learn to be responsible for that And that's what I didn't get when I was incarcerated the services that I needed To learn how not to come back How not to keep visiting Yes, sir. No sir count time on the child On the lineup for meds on to this on to that How to learn how to take my own medication instead of having to line up for somebody to keep giving me my medication I'm just reminded of how services for Mothers That could have Prevented many of the stories you shared with us Have been strategically decimated continually And we we have to collectively as you've said do something about that Can you Leave us with any final messages For the audience, but also in terms of how you see Your lives contributing to the healing To the Changing this dehumanizing view that others have of women Who've been incarcerated it it just seems like you have each done in different ways Through your advocacy through your speaking here and in many venues Done that but if you could just share in closing How that has impacted you how has it you know Been for you and also what a difference you think it makes for others Well, I think because we don't have the time to go into it. I think real quick to end this Everything that we've said today collectively I hope that it just impresses everyone You know in in your mind in your hearts in your conscience that Our stories take our stories and go on our stories because storytelling is the greatest tool that we have And we leave that with you that you will take our stories and utilize our stories to decide and to bring about change To affect change within our communities within our society and within our world Because it takes all of us each and every one of us collectively To bring about change and to fix the brokenness within our systems within ourselves and within our world And we do not want us to we don't want our children to grow up into this world like this And we know what we have to do we really do know Thank you so much to that amazing panel Thank you also to all of you for um, I think we're going to ask the panelists to stay as we close out Thank you to all of you for coming today and being part of this amazing day of conversation and performances One thing we wanted to just acknowledge and remember is that women on the inside and women on the outside have Always worked against the dehumanization of prison in many ways. They've always been the experts of their own lives They've always advocated for their rights and for their families It could be in subtle individual acts of resistance or in loud collective actions From speaking out and suing the state or dissuing the department of homeland services to changing punitive policies and practices To being caregivers for other women's children at the nursery at bedford hills From continuing to parent their children from the prison through letters and visits And telephone calls to breaking the walls of silence and demanding adequate health care at the height of the AIDS epidemic And all the different things in between women are surviving and thriving In spite of the dehumanization of prison and as my colleague tomorrow likes to say we consider all of these acts to be acts of feminism Because in ways big and small they uphold the basic human rights and dignity of women And they are part of creating a world where women have agency and are valued So without further ado, we just want to say very quickly a thank you to andrea williams to judy you and net warren dickens Sir, then jackey velez for all their help Invite you to get involved in our work and the wonderful moorley. Thank you Thank you so much. It's a privilege and an honor to be here and with a wisdom in the room on the stage And um, I had a chance to have a conversation last week with jaya Thank you jaya and judy and the correctional association and fortune society has to work for them a while back Teach yoga there for a couple years Last week we had a conversation and I took some notes Because I looked up to see what is the status of women and Being shackled during childbirth and the status of things and it's hard to get actual information You know like current information and she was generous enough to send me The report's about to come out to next week is it? Next month next month. So I took some notes and here's the song and my brother robin mackatangai is gonna company me and Again, thank you for your work. Blessed Blessed are the warriors for justice and dignity. Thank you Correctional association let the efforts for non shackling started 23 out of 27 was shackled labor the correctional association for putting together today's programming and for everybody Being here listening and letting everybody else know One of the great things about having this go up online at frikland museum Videos is that you can let everybody know that this is now available. Thank you very much for joining us