 That was Patsy Klein and three cigarettes in an ashtray, and that went out to for sister Audrey and happy birthday to Billy Liam Allen and No names given there, no names at all. So joining me in the studio now, I have got Tina Gary and Anna Jane Keyneston and we're back to review Kill the Devil by Tony Macaulay and I'm sure if Tony is listening, he'd forgive me, uh, Juven's Savinana, perhaps Is the Rwandan name. Ladies, you are very welcome. Thank you, Jane. Thanks for having me back, Jane You're very welcome. And as I said, it's hard to get out of this one, you're a little less And when you're all, you're both so good as well So Tina, just, can you give us, I interviewed Tony, I think it was the ninth of you, I was looking back on the, on the interview And he had just released the book then. So it just gives me some options off the story So it's a very interesting book, very different. He has co-written it as well So he has a co-writer, so it's certainly very interesting from that perspective. It's set in Rwanda And it is based on the Rwandan conflict in 1994 or over a period of a hundred days There was mass slaughter and hundreds of thousands of people lost their lives And this is the backdrop, the historical context to the novel where rival factions, I suppose, between Tutsi and Hutu Gangs are involved and at the start of the novel is a really, really interesting introduction A lady is pulled from the water by three fishermen and as it transpires she has attempted to take her own life And her suicide note is found in a bottle and it begins her story, her struggle And we hear about how awful her life has been and it's all about redemption and hope and forgiveness So it's certainly very unique, a very novel novel and very interesting But hard going, it's, you know, he doesn't hold back, it's very graphic and very violent But ultimately is a love story and it says on the cover as well, a love story from Rwanda So we have their Rwandan conflict as a backdrop to this love story But the love story really struggles to come out through all the violence and through the difficulty that this lady, Patricia, has We learn that her husband and her children are both massacred And it's a family friend who is from a different background to them that ultimately betrays them And leads the slaughterers to their home and she loses everything So it's, because it's grounded in history, it's startling how violent it is I think the first 10, 11 chapters I found very difficult to read because they are so graphic But that was the reality of the genocide in 1994 And I found I had to put the novel down at times just to absorb the story and it was quite upsetting too But then after those initial, I think it's the 11, verse 11, 12 chapters Then we, they explores the story more than of Patricia and who she is And her neighbour then, Damascene, the perpetrator, who betrayed her And we, he starts to feel, I suppose he denies, I think he tries to justify what he did as a Hutu soldier in the beginning And then he starts to suffer guilt and remorse and it follows that story It's two parallel journeys, it's her journey to try and forgive him and it's his journey to try and accept what he has done And come to terms with his own grief and his own guilt And it's very interesting from that perspective that we learn about, you know, the victims of violence And the perpetrators of violence and how their lives come together then, you know So it's very different I think one of the things that, one of the characters said in the book that Damascene was not a bad man And if it hadn't been for the genocide, he wouldn't have committed the crimes that he did And I think his big problem was that he found it very hard to forgive himself Even though Patricia forgave him and the beginning of a love story Maybe you just can't hide from your past and, you know, it eventually eats at Damascene And he struggles to kind of start a new life, you know, he's trying to hide his identity He tries to hide his accent, so he's not, he can't be identified as someone who was one of these perpetrators of violence But that you really just can't escape from your past What was the most important thing written, you know, on the blurb on the back Is that you can run and leave a place behind, but you can't leave behind what is running inside of you This was that draws in the title as well, like the demons inside That everybody battles, you know, and as well as the conflict in Rwanda Everybody at some point in their life experienced conflict Or, you know, they might have to go through a period of reconciliation within family or something And I enjoyed like that aspect of it Because you can, well I find that I could connect to, you know, anybody could connect to something within the novel Everyone in the novel is affected by the violence in some way In their lives, it permeates throughout everyone's lives In small ways or large ways depending on their own history And the whole point of the kill the devil is Patricia trying to gain revenge on Damascene For what he's done to her family But then it just becomes a metaphor for forgiveness in the novel So it is a very powerful book in places But it is a challenging read And Tony himself, he went out to Rwanda, I think it was in 2017 And he observed these storytelling workshops where actual perpetrators and survivors stood together and told their stories And this is actually based on the stories that he told And I found it just overwhelming that someone could forgive To such an extent, like Patricia's husband was killed or two children killed And there is a graphic scene with babies being thrown against walls And he didn't hold back at all in that aspect, Tina It comes, as Anna Jane had said, within the first ten chapters We learn about all of that violence And I suppose the fact that the violence in Rwanda was condensed over a three month period Where you maybe look at our own conflict, it was over 30 odd years or more I suppose he tries to condense that violence into that, you know, it's around maybe chapter nine or ten And it just comes like a bolt out of the blue And I didn't see it coming because, you know, if the lake and everything at the start of the novel and the setting It all seems so serene initially But then you really get this bolt of violence Yeah, it hits you Yeah, I feel like I'm still absorbing the novel to be honest with you I mean, I only finished it yesterday And I'm still, you know, trying to take into account that everything happened Certainly it's not violent the whole way through I suppose he doesn't distill it, it just comes at you and it hits you And then the rest of the novel then is about her trying to, you know, embark on her journey I forgive him for trying to rebuild her life But there is an awful lot of hope in the novel Because everyone, well, some people successfully move on And through her ability to forgive, you know, she ends up achieving great things And then we see people who struggle to forgive, maybe like her brother And they just continue to struggle You know, there's no, they never overcome their own issues Because they don't have the power within themselves to forgive So there's enough morals and, you know, lessons in the novel for us all And the simplicity too of reconciliation Like there is a, it's a very hard thing to do sometimes But it is a very simplistic thing to do And I think that's one of the most positive messages in the novel Is that simplicity of reconciliation The kill the devil is, you know, the hurt of the bitterness of the anger inside of you That's what she ends up needing to kill, not the perpetrator of the death And once she overcomes that, she can achieve anything then, you know And I think, I think when I was talking to Tony too, he said that The people of Rwanda really have, have, have got reconciliation started And he, he, he compared it to Northern Ireland, just there isn't the same reconciliation there And I felt throughout the book too, whatever beliefs you have That the church and the faith of the people in Rwanda played a very important part It's very hard to read this novel when you're from a post-conflict society And not try and look at the parallels in your own history or in your own society What struck me greatly about it was the fact that they have a day of reconciliation Where people come together, and everyone, everyone marches And it doesn't matter from what side of the conflict They're on that everyone marches to celebrate the fact that they have That they're attempting their process of reconciliation I, I was very taken by that And that they have these very public seminars as well Where people come on and speak about the part they played Or they ask publicly for forgiveness And I think throughout the book too, that you weren't a Hutu You weren't a Tutsi or a Tua You were Rwandan and everybody was united in their, in their nationality Which I thought was really lovely that they could, they could unite And that they forgot exactly what camp they had been in It's amazing that they can come together as a nation and do that And stand their victims and perpetrators You know, can you imagine if you and I were a victim and perpetrator And, you know, looking for forgiveness and giving forgiveness It's a huge, huge thing I could do I could definitely forgive you Could you? Yeah, thanks Definitely forgive you Well, Patricia and Damocena are the two main characters There are a lot of other characters played What did you think of the characters Tina? I thought Patricia was a very, very powerful character Very well developed, a very strong character Very inspirational woman I think that, I think that the other women in her life And Grace were also good supporting characters Damocena maybe a bit less convincing But I suppose he has to be seen as maybe a weaker man Because of the flaws in his character And the flaws in his past as well I thought one of my issues with the novel I'm not going to start But I had felt that in some characters Were kind of introduced later on very quickly Because they were important And they mattered in the last two or three chapters I think it was Grace's grandfather Who pops up at what randomly appears at the door To say something wise and then disappears again And it's like, where have you gone? And then he comes back at the end of the novel I would have liked that to have been developed A wee bit more So there was a few bit players Who could have been developed a little bit more I liked the character Damocena's brother I liked the relationship that they had with one another Because his brother was always trying to be The positive force and the support behind his brother And then there were little sparks of humility And humanity I remember they were trying to put an aerial On top of their roof to get They wanted to watch the Arizona and Man United match And I thought that's lovely Because we're all human and we all We like similar things Sport brings people together And I liked that relationship The dynamic that they had as brothers It was very real, I thought And then Patricia's brother Albert He was a different cattle efficient He went down the slippery slope of drugs And prostitution, things like that Just to try to get away from his past as well I think you can relate that to society That people who are involved in vitals They try to forget by using drugs And he really couldn't forgive And at the very end I thought, was I giving anything away I thought, oh my goodness Is this going to have a happy ending Or a violent ending It was frightening there for a little minute I have to say it was a lovely ending But it just kept you in your toes there for a week While at the end Very much So I had felt that he didn't really get The help that he needed And Patricia because she had been saved By the fishermen She had been very much rescued by Dr Louise Because she does try to make a second attempt In her life And it was Dr Louise and her husband Who luckily happens to be a detective And he can trace down the perpetrator of violence For Patricia You know there seems to be You can't say that she's a lucky or fortunate character But there seems to be a perfect storm Where things work out for her In a way that they don't work out for her brother And I suppose she gets the help That she so desperately needs In the support network and the funding And she gets the support That she needs to move on And Albert's just not that fortunate He has to lie about his life to her And pretend that he's settled And working and married and a father And whereas the reality is You know the polar opposite You know he's a violent man He's a drug user He's got gangs of children Peddling drugs for him So it's supposed to show us If you avail a supporter If you have the right support That you can overcome difficulties But Albert luckily comes good Yeah it depends This was on the environment isn't it What a community can do together And I suppose Patricia had The right community of people around her And it's amazing When any community comes together In life it's amazing What a community of people can do And how much of a support they can be For a person So she definitely had that Around her Unlike her unfortunate brother But that kind of comes good Towards the end of the story It started off as a screenplay Juvens had sent the screenplay to Tony And then he turned it into a novel And when I was talking to him He said that basically he took scene by scene And turned it into a chapter The chapters were quite short But I thought that He managed very well to You could visualize the beautiful scenery In Africa The lake and the mountains And do you think that it would make a film Or would it be good on screen to see this I think it would I think the way that it's structured It is a non-linear narrative The kind of the Because we don't follow it From beginning, middle to end We arrive after Patricia's Had all of her difficulties That certainly makes it a very interesting way To tell the story And it does tell parallel stories And it tops over and back From Damocen to Patricia's lives So I think it certainly would be very interesting Clearly Tony Macaulay's Very OFA with Rowan And Life Made on Culture That's a very convincing novel But with all of the description And the scenery and the lake And everything I think it would be very visual It probably would be a very cinematic thing Yeah And ultimately the story itself Is one of hope and love So it could inspire So many people If they did see it on big screen Not everyone Wants to read a novel And they prefer to see things on big screen So I think it could have an impact On people Yeah, and influence them in some way What did you like most about the book Or what did you maybe sort of Niggle you about the book, Anna? What? Niggles? Well, I did I have to say I will go back to the beginning The first I found the first part of the The novel hard to read That's my only criticism After that I really got into it And I very much enjoyed The character of Patricia And the other characters too I mean Dr. Louise I loved her Thought she was great Great support to her So I mean For me The novel is a very positive one I don't think there are too many flaws in it I quite enjoyed it And I will be recommending the novel To various people Because I think there's great Like takeaway messages from it And it did remind me of Do you know that book A man's search for meaning By Victor Frankl He was a psychiatrist He ended up in a Nazi Concentration camp And he got through He was a survivor And there's an element of survival You know there's a huge element of survival In Victor Frankl's book And this novel as well And it's very much What attitude do you choose In life And for me Patricia You know she chose her attitude She had a lot of hatred in the beginning But then ultimately she Forgave her perpetrator And yeah I thought it was positive A lot of positive messages in that novel And out of ten what would you score it I'd give it a seven Yeah And what about yourself Tina What I loved about the novel Was the character of Patricia I think were it to be made into A screen player Were you to want to read the novel I think she's a fantastic female role model I think she's a really dignified Gracious woman who You know overcomes and triumphs Over all of her adversities So I thought she was a great Female character I think as well Rwanda as a country seems to be Like another character as well Because the descriptions are very vivid And you could see it You know being very cinematic My one gripe is I found in parts And it's only a few small parts The dialogue was just A wee tiny bit stilted You know at the end of chapter 23 Dr Louise and her husband Are having a conversation about Their own country's history over dinner And I can totally see how Tony McCollie Would want it to have used that as a narrative technique It really gives us the historical context Of the novel and it reminds us And it certainly reminded me of the history of it Because it just isn't something that I would be At all but For me it was like this is a conversation Between a married couple And it just felt a wee bit stilted And there are parts of the dialogue Just didn't flow naturally For me but you know That's me clutching at straws And out of ten what would you give me I would go with a six with this one Jane And I think that I would go with Seven maybe seven because I just thought the message As you said Anna Jane That a lot of people could learn From it So thank you both so much Once again for covering up And hopefully we'll have you back In the autumn for another one Thanks for having us, good to see you again Jane