 Good evening, good afternoon, good morning, friends, and welcome to our talk about justice. My name is Tishika McBean and I'll be the chair for tonight's conversation. Our presenter, Miss Laylee Miller-Murrow is the chief executive officer of the Tahere Justice Center, which provides free legal services and engages in advocacy on behalf of immigrant women and girls in human rights abuses. As a fellow attorney, the ways in which justice has manifested in our society has been a constant point of professional inquiry. The Baha'i Writers tell us the purpose of justice is the appearance of unity. In tonight's conversation, Laylee will explore the Baha'i paradigm of justice and how it can lead to unity. She will then contrast it with our current society where punishments and punitive measures are the focus of a justice system and anger and estrangement are often the tools of individuals facing injustice. She will also explore the different roles of the individual and the community when pursuing justice and the realities of applying justice along with forgiveness. After the presentation, Laylee will answer a few questions from the audience. So please scroll down to the bottom where you see ad comments and please pose your questions. Thank you very much. We'll now hear from Ms. Miller-Murrow. Thank you very much for the kind introduction. I'm looking forward to what I hope will be a discussion and I look forward to the questions. I think that, well, first of all, I will say that if you have heard me speak about justice, which I do on occasion, I wanna go ahead and apologize because this is pretty much the same speech. And so I won't be offended if you log off, but for those of you who are here because you wanna go deeper on justice or talk about it for the first time, I'm excited to have this conversation with you, justice is complicated. Justice is super, super complicated. The Baha'i concept, the Baha'i paradigm is a very deep, very complicated and very hard to achieve definition of justice. So we'll try to explore that together. But as a disclaimer, I want to admit that I don't fully understand it both because of deeply personal reasons and because of professional reasons, I've tried to understand justice and you can't talk about justice in a Baha'i paradigm without also talking about forgiveness. They are the same coin, opposite sides of the same coin. And we'll talk about that, how they go hand in hand. But the standard is a high one. It's hard for mere mortals. It's hard for those of us who have ego and weakness and have anger and emotion and hurt and resentment. It's a very hard, hard concept, but it doesn't change the standard. So what we'll try to do is talk about the standard and then maybe we can forgive ourselves as we don't meet it and as we try our best to meet it. On a professional side, my interest in trying to understand justice, advocate for it and apply it has to do with my role at the Tahiri Justice Center. The Tahiri Justice Center is a Baha'i-inspired nonprofit organization that provides free legal defense for amazing, courageous, strong immigrant and refugee women and girls who are fleeing human rights abuses. They are survivors of a lot of different forms of violence, including domestic violence, human trafficking, female genital mutilation, rape, child marriage and a wide range of things. And so we use US law in order to protect them. We advocate for better laws in the system and we also provide one-on-one direct legal representation and also support them in finding true justice by also accessing social services, mental health care, medical services and a wide range that our social workers help support our clients. The Tahiri Justice Center has over a hundred full-time paid staff and we're located currently in the Washington DC area, San Francisco, Houston, Texas, Atlanta and Baltimore. So that's what we do as an organization. We are in the business of justice and trying to apply these Baha'i teachings on justice at an institutional level has been a journey just as it is for all of us as we try to apply it on an individual level. So justice is according to the Baha'i writings the best beloved in the sight of God. And we're told that today in society's history, this is the day of justice. This is the day of judgment that was foretold in all religions in the past. All religions prophesied a day when humanity would be judged and there would be punishment and there would be justice and we're told that that day is now. Baha'u'llah says, be stir yourselves, O people in anticipation of the days of divine justice. For the promised hour is now come. Beware lest ye fail to apprehend its import or be counted among the airing. So this importance of justice is, Baha'is will often say it's the best beloved in the sight of God and that's true. So God likes it. We know that. But there's something about this moment in history for humanity that is unique around justice. We know that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God that built on the legacy and the learning and the teachings that were all given by previous manifestations. The concept known as progressive revelation. This idea that God progressively reveals truth, lessons, principles, how to apply those principles to humanity as humanity matures and evolves and lives in different contexts, in different circumstances and has different understanding and then has different needs for principles and lessons that are taught by God's holy teachers. And so humanity has been evolving, humanity has been learning and humanity has been taught by Moses, Jesus, Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Muhammad and now Baha'u'llah has come to say it's judgment day. Now is the day of judgment and now is the time where there must be justice because now is the time for humanity to be united. In the Baha'i writings, we're told that the oneness of humanity is the pivot round which all the Baha'i teachings revolve. And so unity and oneness is the ultimate goal. It is the ultimate purpose of the Baha'i faith itself. And we are told that we can't achieve unity until we have achieved justice. So what Baha'u'llah says is that the purpose of justice is the appearance of unity among men. This word appearance is important because it has two meanings in English. In English, it can mean facade, like it just appears one way, but it really is another way. Or it can mean the gradual emergence of something. I do not speak the language that this was originally written in, but I asked someone who did and they told me that that word appearance is the same word used to describe the rising of the sun in the morning. So we know then that when Baha'u'llah in English as it's translated says the purpose of justice is the appearance of unity. We know it's the emergence, the creation of unity, not merely the facade. And that's a very important distinction. It's also important because when one is pursuing justice in order to ultimately achieve oneness and unity, it doesn't feel like oneness. It won't feel like unity. Not in the early stages of trying to apply justice because justice, any process of justice first involves lodging a complaint. It involves having the courage to speak up, having the courage to speak out if you notice something. You have to voice your truth, your pain. You have to maybe relive your trauma and that's hard. And it doesn't feel unity, doesn't feel like peace and oneness. It feels hard and it feels really painful. And then any process of justice has a truth finding element. And in that truth finding stage, it gets even harder because then you've spoken your truth. I felt wronged or in extreme situations, violence or whatever it may be. And then in that justice process, there is a truth finding stage where there might be opposing witnesses. There might be a different perspective. There might be people who saw the same incident and saw something different. And then there's this truth finding and kind of reconciling the truth process. And that's super painful. Then there's a stage where decision is made about the truth, about the facts. And one can accept that or you can appeal it. And then you can live in a vortex sometimes of re-litigating the truth again and again and again. Someone can say, this is how I think it happened. And you can say, no, no, I'm gonna continue to fight that. And that can go a long time. It can be very messy. After truth is determined, then there is a process for consequence, punishment or repair. That can also be messy. One might not always be happy with the decision, with the consequence or the repair. Then there is a point hopefully of safety and feeling then protected or feeling that there's been repair and that there's been acknowledgement of that truth. And it's that point where we usually stop. American society and much of the world justice looks like punishment. And that's how people define justice. It just stops at punishment. In the behind writings, you're only like halfway at the most through the justice process at that stage. Because then there's a process of reconciliation, a process of understanding and then a process of love. And if we stop at punishment, we don't achieve the unity that we know justice is intended to help us achieve. And there are some wonderful movements around restorative justice, reconciliation efforts in the criminal justice process in particular, they're getting at that. They're getting at the unity piece, but it also takes somebody who's willing once justice has been served to let go, to move on, to be open to reconciliation or restoration, that kind of thing. So there's this whole process to get us to unity. And there are different roles for the individual and for community in this whole process of achieving justice. That's where it gets really sticky because it gets confusing. What is my role as an individual and what is community's role? But we're told that there are very distinct and different roles. So I'm actually going to share my screen for a moment in order to illustrate this point and to share with you a few quotes that relate specifically to it. So let's see. I hope you can see my screen. Okay, it says justice. It should say justice. I hope you're seeing that. So, well, I've already talked about this quote. And then this moment where we can maybe transition from that justice and leading up to punishment process into reconciliation and eventual oneness. This quote's very important. Love is a light that never dwelleth in a heart possessed by fear. And now there are some people who are superhuman. Martin Luther King was certainly this. Abdul Baha was certainly this. They can face injustice. They can face violence right in front of them and their hearts still not be possessed by fear. So it's not a requirement that when faced with injustice you are possessed by fear, but it's a lot easier to not be possessed by fear if you can be free of injustice. And many in society collectively and as individuals are possessed by fear for completely rational intelligent reasons because that's a truth. That fear is a truth. It's really hard to love when being possessed by fear. Okay, but there are two different roles that are played in this process of justice. On the one hand, there's the role of the individual and then on the other hand is the role of society. So the House of Justice makes it very clear Abdul Baha does as well, but the Baha'i faith draws a very definite distinction between the duty of an individual to forgive. And to be killed to the degree to which that individual would be killed rather than to kill. And the duty of society to uphold justice. So there are many writings that underscore the importance of standing up to oppression and advocating for justice. We're told for example, that if we stay not the hand of the oppressor, if you fail to safeguard the rights of the downtrodden what right have you to vaunt yourself among men? Oh, children of dust tell the rich of the midnight sighing of the poor. We're supposed to let people know and speak out about the suffering of people. And then we're told if criminals were entirely forgiven the order of the world would be upset. So punishment is one of the essential necessities for the safety of communities. So we know that it's important. Okay, but as individuals we're supposed to forgive and the bar is very high and our cultural norm right now doesn't, it's not only that it doesn't support people who are trying to forgive. I mean, there are professionals who advise people to like not let it go to estranged themselves, create boundaries that would never allow for reconciliation and true forgiveness. So we've got all these forces at work keep keeping us from forgiveness. But worse than that there are many who view forgiveness as weakness. They view it as selling out. And so there's a lot of pressure to not in fact engage in forgiveness particularly the way Abdu Baha describes it. We are told in the Baha'i writings that if a person falls into error for a hundred thousand times he may yet turn to you hopeful that you will forgive his sins for he must not become hopeless neither grieved nor despondent. This is the conduct of the matter of the people of Baha'i. I was sharing this quote with a friend of mine who's not a Baha'i and she was saying like so do you have a list? Like are you keeping a tick list to know when you get to that hundred thousand? And I thought, gosh, you know, no but I know a whole lot of people who when you get to five have decided they're done with you. They're no longer gonna be your friend or engage in that relationship. We're told if somebody falls into error for a hundred thousand times we should forgive them. We must look upon our enemies with a sin covering eye and act with justice when confronted with any injustice whatsoever. Yes, when we are faced with injustice we are supposed to respond with a sin covering eye and to act only just. Consider the whole of humanity as our family and the earth as our own country be sympathetic with all suffering, nurse the sick, offer a shelter, et cetera, et cetera. You can kind of read the rest of that quote. And then also we're told in every instance let the friends be considerate and infinitely kind. Let them never be defeated by the malice of people by their aggression and their hate no matter how intense. If others hurl darts at you, offer them milk and honey in return if they poison your lives. Like that's like somebody trying to kill you if they poison your lives. Sweeten their souls, if they injure you teach them how to be comforted, et cetera, et cetera. There are a lot of these quotations and the writings mean them. I've talked to some people who will say, well, but you know, and I'm thinking, I don't know. Like this is pretty clear, it's pretty clear. And Abdu'l-Baha was certainly an example of this. Some of you may be familiar with the experience, the very sad and incredibly, incredibly intense suffering experience that Abdu'l-Baha had when Baha'u'llah died. So when Baha'u'llah died, Abdu'l-Baha's half brothers stole Abdu'l-Baha's belongings. They took control over the accounts and the money and they challenged Abdu'l-Baha's authority as the one who was, he was bestowed the inheritance and the leadership of the Baha'i faith in the will and testament of Baha'u'llah. But Abdu'l-Baha's half brothers treated him absolutely horribly. They tried to poison him. They did it through other people. They rallied governments against Abdu'l-Baha. They spread lies about Abdu'l-Baha. They kept Abdu'l-Baha in poverty and wouldn't give him money, even though some of the money was due to Abdu'l-Baha, just to sustain his family, but they lived a life of luxury. They did unforgivable things, like horrible, horrible things. Abdu'l-Baha never shared what they did. He never aired what they did to others. He always forgave. There was a gentleman who was responsible for trying to poison Abdu'l-Baha and it was in coordination with his half brothers. Later, this individual came back to Abdu'l-Baha begging for forgiveness and saying, I was wrong. I feel horrible. I'm begging for your forgiveness and I wanna be back in the fold. Abdu'l-Baha granted him immediately forgiveness, allowed him back in their lives and in their community. He had self-separated himself previously. But this is a guy who tried to kill him and he said, no, it's no problem. Then this person allied himself again with his half brothers and again tried to be involved in poisoning, Abdu'l-Baha. Abdu'l-Baha forgave again and again, no matter what. He invited his half brothers to his wedding, the wedding of his daughter, Abdu'l-Baha's daughter. He didn't have enough money at this wedding to provide meals or food. It was a very modest wedding because of the money that the half brothers were keeping from him, the half brothers attended the wedding and openly mocked, openly jeered and made fun of the simplicity of the wedding. Abdu'l-Baha never said, you may not come. And his example of incredible forgiveness, not backbiting, not revealing the sins of his brothers and never estranging himself. It's just an incredible, incredible example. And in the Baha'i Faith we're basically told there's a lot we can do in response to injustice as a community. But what we know, particularly as individuals, in addition to all of these writings about return honey for poison and this kind of thing, is like four things that are kind of carnal sins. Backbiting, which is considered the most great sin. Speaking ill of somebody. We know that we can't like hit them. Violence is also off limits. Backbiting is off limits. Hitting people is off limits. And then estrangement is off limits. We're told in the Baha'i writings that nothing can whatsoever, nothing in this day can whatsoever hurt the cause of God except estrangement amongst his loved ones. That will harm the cause. So then we think, well, what can we do when we're offended and when we're hurt or when there's injustice? And those are two different things, by the way. Being offended and feeling even demeaned or belittled or disregarded or misunderstood or you're annoyed by somebody or whatever it is. That is different than injustice. I wanna say that because I think particularly right now there is a lot of conflation of the two. And particularly as one who works in the justice field I bristle a little bit at the equivalence of what really requires a formal justice process and what might be being offended or something you can talk through with somebody and simply say, I think you misunderstood me or I'm feeling like you're not hearing or whatever it may be. There are differences between different behaviors even if they hurt. So Abdu'l-Baha, so it can be confusing. The role of the individual forgiveness, the role of community justice. What Abdu'l-Baha says, and this is in a chapter in a book called Some Answered Questions. It's a chapter on the treatment of criminals. And what it says is that if someone oppresses, injures and wrongs another. And by the way, there are a lot of ellipses. It's very long. And so I would encourage you to read it in its entirety because I have abbreviated. And I've also replaced a name which is quite long with just brackets. Okay. If someone oppresses, injures and wrongs another and the wronged man retaliates, this is vengeance and centrable. No, rather he must return good for evil and not only forgive but also if possible be a service to his oppressor. That's hard to swallow. Not only forgive but also if possible be of service to his oppressor. But the community has the right of defense and of self-protection. Moreover, the community has no hatred nor animosity for the murderer. It imprisons or punishes him merely for the protection and security of others. It is not for the purpose of taking vengeance upon the murderer, but for the purpose of inflicting a punishment by which the community will be protected. As forgiveness is one of the attributes of the merciful one. So also is justice one of the attributes of the Lord. The tent of existence is upheld by the pillar of justice, not forgiveness. The continuance of mankind depends on justice, not forgiveness. So at a societal level, the pillar upholding society is justice. And as members of community, we need to be obsessed with justice. To recapitulate, the constitution of the communities depends upon justice and not upon forgiveness. If someone, oh, sorry, wait, I just read that. If one person assaults another, so I'm gonna read from a different and I'm wondering if I edited it a little bit differently. If one person assaults another, the engine one should forgive him, but the communities must protect the rights of man. So if someone assaults, engers, oppresses and wounds me, I will offer no resistance and I will forgive him. But if a person wishes to assault you, certainly I will prevent him. Although for the malefactor, non-interference is apparently a kindness, it would be an oppression to you. If at this moment so and so were to enter this place with a drawn sword, wishing to assault, wound and kill you, most assuredly I would prevent him. If I abandon you to him, that would not be justice, but injustice. But if he injure me personally, I will forgive him. This is the difference. This is a chart. There is nothing holy about this chart, by the way, and there's probably a lot wrong with it, but this was my hugely imperfect effort to try to illustrate this process of justice and the fact that there are two protagonists in it, the individual and community. And there are different roles and there are different responsibilities for this arc of justice and unity if you're an individual who is facing the injustice versus being someone in community. And when I say someone in community, that can mean institutions. But as you saw in the example that Abdu Baha gave, it can also mean a bystander. It can mean an advocate. It can mean an ally. It can mean a friend. It can mean somebody who is a witness to it. And so this chart is just one way to show that there's that beginning stage where you have the courage to voice the injustice. There is a fact-finding stage. There is then consequences, enforcement. This is the long, I mean, in the United States justice system, that whole process can take years. It can take years. And then hopefully you get justice at some point and then there's this pillar that upholds society as we're told. And then hopefully we can release fear because we know that love cannot dwell, never dwell. Love never dwell within a heart possessed by fear. Then when that fear is released, and fear can be released because you've got justice or fear can be released because you went to therapy. There are lots of ways to release fear or because you're amazing and you're Martin Luther King or Abdu Baha and other people. But then there's this process of understanding and empathy, forgiveness and reconciliation. And the community can play a role in accompaniment, love, support, facilitation, education, that kind of thing. So it's this beautiful and really, really difficult process. Okay, so how do you know? This is the biggest question that comes up. How do I know if I'm backbiting or if I'm bringing up a matter of justice? And that's an authentic question. That's a really, really hard question. I, again, none of this is holy. This is, you know, we don't have clergy in the Baha'i faith. This is my very modest and imperfect effort to understand, aggregate in my mind and make sense of the Baha'i writings. And as I understand it in this context of justice, I think whether or not it's backbiting has something to do with both our intent and our expression of it. And on the intent, if it's for the purpose of growth and improvement, there's a selfless intent around that. It's not because I'm gonna get personal, like emotional release, vengeance or satisfaction out of it. That's more of a selfish emotion. It's really about we gotta do better. All of us have to do better. And so if this thing is happening, that's unacceptable because we gotta do better and let's help each other in love, do it better. So there's something about the intention, I think, for growth that's helpful and the expression of it. And the expression has to do with to whom and the way in which it's brought up. And with regard to whom, if it's to someone or a body, like if it's an institution or if it's an individual who can do something about it. So again, your intention is in fact for action and growth and learning as opposed to venting or just processing or getting it off your chest or whatever it may be. If the expression is to somebody who can do something about it, like their predetermined role is actually to hear injustice and to do something about it. Maybe that's a police officer. Maybe that's a high school guidance counselor, a teacher. Maybe it is a lawyer. Maybe it's an HR manager. Maybe it's your supervisor. Maybe it's the local spiritual assembly or an auxiliary board member. But someone who will do something about it and has that appropriate designated role. So it's not about like you're my friend, my best friend, and that's why I'm talking to you because I'm just more comfortable with you. It's I'm bringing it up because we're gonna do something about it and we're gonna grow and learn. And then also it helps when it's done in a manner that focuses on impact. It's really hard and I think it gets messy when we're guessing intention. Somebody did this because I think they have a psychiatric disorder because I think they're selfish or I think they're racist or I think they're sexist or whatever intention or diagnosis you have the inclination to confer on somebody. That's tricky because you may not be right and to try to be guessing intention is always really difficult. But to say, here was the impact. Like I don't even care intention. We can assume good intentions by everyone but the impact was violence. The impact was marginalization. The impact was lack of access to monetary resources. Whatever it may be that can all be very problematic. So something about the way it's done, not demonizing, not label and has the goal of really improving the situation. Again, this is not holy but maybe some of this can help us as we navigate our efforts to bring about justice. And then not to be totally depressing but I know enough about the justice system and I know everyone here does to know that it doesn't always work and that you don't always get justice. The high school guidance counselor doesn't stop the bully sometimes. The police don't help sometimes. The judge is not making a decision in your favor sometimes. The local spiritual assembly doesn't actually respond in a way that's just or fair and that can hurt and it can really be painful. And at the end of the day, we know that the arc, the lifespan, the timeline of justice is not limited to this earthly material plane. The lifespan of justice is through all the worlds of God. And so if we're feeling like really attached to getting justice here, I would encourage you to read these quotations very powerful, lots of writings that talk about justice in the next life. So much so that if, you know, there are other writings that say if we really understood the implications of punishment in the next life, we would pray for adequate justice in this life in order to avoid the need to be punished in the next life. And there's a quotation in particular from a tablet called the Tablet of the Rights of the People and this is an excerpt from that tablet. Inasmuch as it is current amongst the people of God, the all merciful. You know what, there's something I can't see. Oh, at times forego with his own right and forgive it. Okay, so this is very interesting because the way justice is described in this tablet is a right of the people. And so it's a right to experience justice or to get recompense. Recompense is a word used in this tablet a lot. But at times we forego with our own right and we forgive, right? We say, okay, you're not gonna pay me back that loan. I'm gonna let it go, I'm gonna forgive. But he foregoes not he meaning God. This is capitalized, right? It's own right and forgive it. Okay, but not the rights of the people until their rights are settled but the dawning place of the revelation the all merciful hath said that people are recompensed according to their deeds, reward for good and punishment for evil. Thus it become evident that a deed will remain and every attribute will exist until recompense is given. According to the deed and attribute itself so it's proportional, the justice is proportional. Therefore any deed and any attribute that appear from any person hath a form, I'm sorry, it's a typo, in every world is what that's supposed to say and unveileth itself that God may reward every soul that what he hath earned, verily God is swift in reckoning. I apologize for all of those typos. So the idea here is that if we don't experience justice in this life, we will experience justice in the next. And so on a bad day maybe where we are frustrated with somebody not receiving justice, maybe we just are really okay with that because the justice they will be experiencing in the next life will be proportional according to God and it'll be okay and it'll all work out in the end. So there's this whole perspective of justice that transmits this world and the next world crosses from the individual to society and the standard is high and the standard is hard. It requires us as community to change our cultural norm of looking the other way, looking down, not wanting to be uncomfortable, not wanting to intervene, not wanting to step in because it feels yucky and maybe we're gonna mess things up and make it even more disunified. We have to get over that. We have to intervene and stand up for justice and as individuals, we have to get over our hurt feelings and our ego and we have to forgive and these are really high bars on both sides. So I'm gonna stop and see if we have questions. I'll let Tashika see if there are questions. Okay, thank you very much, Laylee. That was a very insightful presentation. Right now I'm thinking a hundred times to forgive. And I think a hundred thousand times. I was thinking maybe a hundred, but it's a hundred thousand times. I'm thinking maybe 10. But the bar is really high and I really love the way in which you really went into our different roles as individuals and institutions in society. Now those are very distinct, but also we need both to have a holistic system of justice. So the first question that I would pose from the audience is this, the participant asks, is justice about process and laws or about empathy and reconciliation? What are your thoughts on that question? Both. So remember it's both and it's all at the same time. This is a concept of complexity and we don't like complexity. Like it's easier to say you wronged me and I'm done or you're evil or, you know, that's easier. That's way more simple. It's both. It's we have to, and I think, you know, the best way I find to grasp my head around this concept is to think about the role of a parent. You know, a parent, and I have three children and they are unjust. Like there are many times when they are unjust. I have an eight-year-old who has a hitting problem with his sisters and in that moment when that happens, I can implement justice and have empathy. I can implement justice and love. I can punish and set boundaries and I can forgive and I can let it go the minute his timeout is over or the minute he is done having lost his electronics for the day, we don't have to hold onto it forever. And I think if we can view each other with the compassion of, we're all souls growing. We're all infants in some levels. We're all children. We're all evolving. We're all trying to improve. We're all trying to grow and we deserve mercy and compassion as we deserve boundaries and consequences. And those are not, we have to get to a point where they can live in the same heart and in the same society and in the same interactions at the same time. And we have a hard time with that. It's really, really hard. Thank you very much. And another question asks you to go a little bit deeper, right? You had mentioned that in the writings of Bahá'u'lláh, he kind of says that, maybe we should pray to receive justice on this side because divine justice may be much more intense now what we probably would receive here. So the question is, please comment on the three levels of justice. We mentioned individual, personal, society, public, divine revelation justice. Like talking about that if there's any insights in terms of divine justice. Because the question goes into say that there's many examples whereby the oppressor escapes justice of society and individual. And there's any insights regarding that divine justice. And you could think about issues regarding so many issues in society, slavery to immigration. So all these things. So what is that divine justice looks like in your exploration of the writings? I mean, I don't know. I think that that's up to God and only we don't know, we don't know. It's a matter of trust. Nobody's been to the apoc kingdom, gotten a peek at it and has been able to come back. But we know that God is just and God is fair. And we know that we're supposed to fear God and we're supposed to fear those consequences. If anyone Googles Bahá'u'lláh writings fear and God, there's a lot that comes up. We're told to respect God and fear consequence. Again, in the same way that we might fear the punishment of a parent whom we love and we want to please. But when we've done something wrong, there will be punishment. There will be consequence. So I mean, the short answer is I really don't know. But the tablet that I mentioned earlier, it's called the tablet of the rights of the people. It is a tablet about justice in the next life. And this long arc. And one of the examples that it gives is if I steal a seed from you and I do not pay you back the seed. And this is what's so amazing about how it's framed. Let's talk about the recompense, which is due to you, not because you want it. Because again, if we're in this perfect paradigm, you forgave me the minute I stole your seed. So you've forgiven me. So like you're not asking for the seed back, but justice means giving you the seed back. Societal justice means giving you the seed back. If I don't give you the seed back, my punishment in the next world will be not just a recompense of that seed, but the seeds tree, its branches, its leaves and its fruits. So I don't know, but that scares me. Like that quote makes it seem as though there's some multiplication factor of punishment in the next life if we didn't receive it adequately in this life. That's kind of my takeaway. I am noticing somebody in the chat, I had a chance to kind of glance over, asked about what the reward for forgiveness is. I don't think we're looking for reward. I mean, it's not about I'm gonna do the right thing because I get rewarded. Well, I guess the reward, if you need it, is spiritual growth, right? Because our whole purpose on this life, the whole reason we're here, this whole material existence is just an incubator for developing spiritual qualities for our birth into the APA kingdom. We're told that this life is the matrix, similar to how the life, the matrix of the womb of the mother carrying the baby for nine months. That womb is a matrix for the development of physical capacities, even though the baby doesn't use them in that existence, in that realm, it's developing its lungs, its eyes, it's limbs, but it's not running anywhere. It's not even breathing air. It's not seeing anything in that environment. It's simply developing the qualities. We are told that this whole physical material existence is our incubator space for developing spiritual qualities and the strength of our spiritual qualities, forgiveness is one of them. The strength of our spiritual qualities will determine our station in the next world. It is this concept of heaven or hell, but not in a physical sense and not in the binary sense that, for example, Christianity might portray it as. It's about how spiritually strong and capable we are and how therefore near to God we are or far. So I think the reward is spiritual capacity, incredible capacity for forgiveness or patience or perseverance or whatever that may be that, I think, I mean, others might have other interpretations, but that would be my takeaway. Thank you very much. I think in terms of forgiveness and what's the benefit, I think there's an element of detachment that is there. I remember reading a Baha'i quote about, in the blink of an eye, God will forgive the most grievous of sins, right? And that really reminds me to always, when I forgive, I release on whatever happens, happens and not to hold onto that, you know? And there's a few questions regarding I guess the same question of, you know, what if a particular offense is not, for example, the question reads and relates to conditions today. Is the kill of George, if the cop that killed George Floyd, right, receives a four year sentence, right? Has he received justice in this world and would no longer face it in the next? I think the question goes to, you know, if there's elements of dual punishment, you know? I think there's a cold regard in that, any thoughts on that particular question? Yeah, I mean, I hesitate, because again, I can't play God, like, you know, I don't know, only God would be the judge of whether an act of justice in this world was sufficient to avoid punishment in the next world. I can't know that, I can't know the answer to that. You know, somebody, I saw in the chat, somebody also asked about justice collective in terms of reparations. And I think that's a great question. There is a lot there to unpack, because we know that justice is in the hands of is the responsibility of the collective. It is of community rather than like an individual sense of vengeance or payback or that kind of thing. And again, I don't know the right answer, but I think it's really exciting to see justice mechanisms being explored. Now, aside from reparations and injustice sense, we do have another model in the Baha'i Faith. It's a little, like it's a different category maybe than justice, but it has to do with right sizing inequities that have existed. And the Baha'i Faith has many, many examples of affirmative action or kind of like putting your hand on the scale in order to assist those historically wrong. For example, we have a law in the Baha'i Faith that if a family in the very unfortunate circumstance cannot educate both or all of its children, it must choose the girls. It must prioritize education of the girls. Now, that might feel like that's not fair, but the thing is boys have been prioritized for thousands and thousands and thousands of years. And Baha'u'llah basically came along and said, yeah, we're gonna switch that. We're gonna completely flip that on its head. Now, we want everybody to be educated. However, if for some reason you can't educate all the kids, the girls get priority. That's a very, that's like a, it's a restorative, it feels a little bit like some collective justice mechanism. There's also a provision in Baha'i election law that if when we're electing local spiritual assemblies, if there is a tie between two individuals and one individual represents a minority community, there is no revote. That individual is automatically put on the assembly. And so it's a form of affirmative action, if you will. So we have these other examples in the Baha'i faith that also can be looked to, I think, for that. And then somebody asked a great question about if somebody perpetuates injustice, do you forgive that person and shouldn't you also report it? Okay, this is the thing about complexity. It has to, we have to live with forgiveness and justice at the same time in the same place. It's not either or. It's never an either or. It's a both and. So just to give you one example, a friend was mugged. She was mugged brutally. She suffered physically. She had to go in the hospital as a result of the mugging. And apparently that person mugged, I think several other people that same night, something like that. And they caught him, they caught the person. And I checked in with her a few weeks later and just said, how are you doing? How are you healing? And how are you feeling emotionally? And she says, I'm great. I'm actually doing really well. I've been reading a lot of high writings about forgiveness and I've really let it go. And I'm not living in a place of trauma anymore and I've forgiven, I've really let it go. And I was like, oh, that's really great. That's so great. So how's the prosecution going of the person who did that? She goes, oh yeah, the local prosecutor called me and I didn't call them back because I've forgiven him. I was like, no, that's not, they need you as a witness. Like it's good that you have forgiven that person but you are a protagonist in the communal justice and not for your own selfish sake. Again, let go of any selfish reasons. For the sake of all, for the benefit of society, for the protection of others, lodge your complaint, serve as a witness and help support the justice process so that somebody can receive punishment and receive justice. So it's both and, it's hard. It's really hard, but they're both. We have to have justice and forgiveness and it's not one or the other. I hope that, I don't know, it's hard. It's a hard concept. Well, you have a lot of great questions coming in. The one in particular that does the first question, it reads, the Baha'i approach to justice emphasizes not taking sides. So we don't create any division. In my attempts to better understand our call towards social justice work, I find myself confused on the fine line between taking sides versus taking a stand for what we believe is right based on a revelation of Baha'u'llah. So how do we serve as pillars of human rights and justice without taking sides per se? Any thoughts on that? So I am not an infallible Baha'i. I haven't read all the Baha'i writings, but I've never read a Baha'i writing that said we can't take sides. So I'm not sure. In fact, my reading of the writings is we actually have to stand up for the oppressed. We do have to stand up against the oppressor. I think that's taking a side. So I'm not sure in the face of injustice anyway. Like maybe, I don't know, Phoebe, what you're talking about is in a consultation when lots of people have different views and reasonable people can disagree and we should hear everybody and not take sides. That makes sense to me. But in a context of injustice, truth, like finding out the truth is a side. I'm gonna really dig. I'm gonna talk to lots of people. I'm not gonna have a narrow view of what happened, what didn't happen. We're gonna really fact find, do due diligence, hear witnesses, try to understand what really happened. We're gonna decide what happened and then we're gonna implement punishment. If what has happened, in fact, is that somebody has oppressed another or that there is an injustice, then we are told we have to implement punishment. So in a way that's taking a side. So I don't see that limitation in the Baha'i writings that we can't take a side. But what I see is that we have to stand up against oppressors, that we have to investigate truth and that we have to help support a process of justice. Okay. Okay, so some people are asking about examples of restorative justice and then also the Tahiri Justice Center's work. So to be clear, the Tahiri Justice Center is on that side of us community, right? We're not, the people who work at Tahiri are advocates, social workers. We are, our job is to advocate for others and to help implement justice. Forgiveness is deeply personal and everyone has their own moral and spiritual compass around forgiveness. So our job, to be clear, is not to tell other people to forgive. Our job is the justice side. Our job is the justice part. And we will support in the company clients in their personal journeys, maybe seeking mental health services, seeking the support of their own spiritual community if they want to pursue their journey towards forgiveness as well. We are working, some people asked if you work at the border, people separated from their children. Yes, we do. We have an office in Houston and also some of our other offices are also very involved in representing families who have been forcibly separated from their children at the border. I would encourage anybody who is interested in hearing more about that work or any other of the work that we do to check out our website. It's just tahiri.org and it's Tahiri is spelled like in the Don Breakers, it's spelled and you can there learn about all of the issues that we are working on. Border protecting asylum, which is really under attack refugee status and asylum right now in the United States and a wide range of other issues. And so I want to address restorative justice and people are asking what might that look like? It does involve not stopping at punishment, helping people who are willing come together. You can also Google the restorative justice movement. It's led by the church actually and they bring survivors together with their perpetrators and the perpetrator hears the impact of what they did, listens, absorbs the pain, asks for forgiveness if that's authentic and the person then if it's authentic gives forgiveness and they have a reconciliation process understanding that that person has faced punishment and will have done their time but is also a child of God and deserves to have the opportunity to transform and to reform and to reconcile and move on. So there's some wonderful things happening that might be great models and it's happening in the school system somebody else mentioned that like with kind of bullies there's this horrible label like they're a bully and then you're labeled for life and that's not restorative justice frankly. And there is a movement trying to get rid of that really horrific labeling particularly for a child who may have made mistakes, may have made a lot of mistakes but is a child of God and deserves an opportunity to change their behavior and to not be kind of condemned for life or labeled for life. So there are these really wonderful movements that are powerful. I also want to address often Baha'is will bring up and it hasn't happened yet but I wanna go ahead and bring it up because I feel like it's often in people's minds. There is a quotation that says that I'm gonna find the exact one. It's about the liar and the tyrant and the thief. So we are told this quote says the kingdom of God is founded on equity and justice equity and justice and also so equity and justice community and also upon mercy, compassion and kindness to every living soul, this individual versus community. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind except those who have a selfish private motive or a disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown to the tyrant, the deceiver or the thief because far from awakening them to the error of their ways it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness you may expend on the liar he will but lie them more for he believeth you to be deceived while you understand him too well and will only remain silent out of your extreme compassion. So there was a letter written from the House of Justice 2018 that clarified that this does not mean that we should treat someone with hostility or disdain and that Abdu Baha explains in some answered questions. So that chapter that I was talking about what withholding kindness might look like and it's justice. So it's not that now I hate you or I'm gonna estrange from you or I'm gonna have resentment. It is about a process of justice and these phrases, the liar, the tyrant and the thief those are criminal designations. Those are labels. It's not just, you did something wrong and we have 100,000 times of forgiveness. It's a really high bar and then that process, the response the justice response is about fixing it. So anyway, sometimes people bring that up but I do think sometimes it is misunderstood. It also says kindness cannot be shown to the tyrant. And this is also very interesting because as a parent, if we go back to the parent thing I try really hard when my eight year old does something wrong sometimes it can actually be funny like we know it's wrong but we giggle at the same time because he's done it in a hilarious way. And we know we can't show kindness to him in that moment we have to have a stern face we have to implement justice or punishment even as we love, even as we have empathy and even as we forgive right away but we're careful about what we show and I think it's very interesting that this quote says it says in the early treat with kindness but then it says don't show which is such an interesting difference. So there's a lot to unpack in that quote and I would just caution anyone who's familiar with it it's been used really loosely I think by a lot of people to confirm maybe what people want to do which may not be in line with the high bar of forgiveness and kindness and compassion that we're called to in the Baha'i writings. So I think we're over our time I will stop now but I'm grateful for the questions and grateful for the opportunity to continue this journey of understanding with others. I think are we done?