 So today I'm going to talk about my design journey and I'm going to cover a couple of things. I'm going to start with my first commercial digital project and then go into all of the various sort of design setups I've worked in and what I kind of learnt from each setup. Of course this is like my journey so hopefully some of it is going to be useful to you guys. Let me quickly introduce myself. I'm the head of design and UX at Referral Candy which is a Singapore based startup and we basically make automated referral programs for any e-commerce store. In my former role I was the VP design at Postman which I'm sure some of you have heard of hopefully. It's basically an API service for developers and basically we helped a postman grow to more than four million developers and still growing and it's a massive platform now. So let's just quickly start off. I call it level zero which is like my first commercial digital project. I was trained as a graphic designer which is like in print and the moment I went into the industry I decided I don't want to do print and so my first project was actually a commercial project that I convinced my boss that I really can do website design even though I had never done it before. So yeah the first story is this website that I made. It's a bit embarrassing to show it but it was basically a website for a mall and what I did was I created abstract forms and then I was very interested and excited about interaction and interactive stuff. So the top half of the website is an interactive experience which you can click through and the bottom half is just the normal website that the client wanted. So I think after this project what I learnt was if the client likes it then all good, it's approved, it goes live and that was I think my first learning in the design industry. The other thing I think that started happening was that I worked in a lot of design studios and just keep in mind this is really long ago, this is like ten years ago. So design studios are just lovely places of like six to eight designers. Everybody is a designer, it's a really comfortable cozy sort of space. The person who owns the company is also a designer so you are just in this amazing place where you can just focus on the craft, on the pixels, on the print. You are very protected in a design studio. So I really learnt a lot from design studios because I had time and space to develop my own style. A lot of design studios have their own style already because the founder's style is kind of imprinted on the studio. So I think what I realised was hey as a designer you can have your own style, you don't have to do everything the client tells you to do and I started to explore this sort of geometric style that I had. This is a branding project I did for Diamond Company, it's very random but I think I had a lot of fun with it and by this point I was doing everything from logo design, print design, web, like end to end kind of brand application. And so I think the story I want to tell about studio is this one project I did where we worked with this lady who wanted to start her own event conference in India and that was a pretty huge thing because in those days it was very new, TED was very new and it was supposed to be a TEDx which she wanted to brand. And it was super fun and I think it's the first time where I really saw how important it was for the whole team to work really well together, the client really in it, 150%, the designers in it, everybody was really in it. And this is the logo that I made which again was developing my personal style which is a sort of geometric retro kind of style as a graphic designer and it was really interesting to see that being converted into something like this on the stage and this event is still going on now after all of these years and they're still developing the brand even now and even after I left that studio I still saw the way the logo was continuing to be used and that made me realize as a designer that if you do your job well, if you write the vision statement well, if you do all of that initial branding and initial stuff well, it goes on, it doesn't die after you go. And so that was like a really great learning experience for me. So what did I learn from working in design studios? Presentation skills are everything. Of course this is something I'm still trying to work on but I saw a lot of the sort of senior creative directors and senior designers being so good at presentation and I was like, yeah, it doesn't matter how good you are as a designer, what matters is being able to talk about it. So this was my sort of learning at that time. The other thing I learned was it's okay to say no. I had some really cool bosses who fired clients and who said, oh no, we don't want to do this project. I had one boss who said, oh, we don't want to do cigarette related advertising and I was like, wow, that's so cool, you can say no, but they're offering so, you know, it's a huge contract but they didn't care. So I think that's something I find and I really respect that about design studios. The other thing I learned is at that time my feeling was, hey, it's really tough to work with non-designers and most of my job in design services was dealing with CEOs and engineers and marketing executives and all of this stuff. So I was like, okay, this is probably something I need to get better at. Level two is freelancing so I left design studios and I tried to do freelancing for a while. It didn't end very well so it was a bit like the Wild Wild West. Anything could happen. There was no protection from any senior creative directors. You never knew what your client was going to say at any time and I think I had this one really difficult client who kept changing requirements and it suddenly made me realize as a designer, oh, it's not just about the craft. All my bosses have continuously protected me from this, you know, harsh reality. And yeah, I found the hard way that sometimes checks bounce and then nothing can be done and you've already delivered the files. I was like, oh no, yeah. So this was an interesting learning to me and in the beginning of my career. The other thing is freelancing puts you in a weird position of working alone from home and I think personally for me, I realize this is just not fun and I'm very dependent on other people to have discussions and interesting interactions and I was like, maybe I should get back to this when I actually know what I'm doing and when I'm not just sort of struggling in the dark. So I felt at this time that I should learn more about what I was trying to do in digital in the digital world and so I took a break from design and I decided to be a researcher for some time. So this is when I, and I think during the interview they were like, oh, you don't have a psychology degree and I somehow convinced them that I could still do the job. So I joined this company where I became a researcher and it was like six month projects where you go into really small towns in India and try to understand how do they use the internet, why do they go to cyber cafes, why do women go to cyber cafes, why do men go to cyber cafes. We were trained in all of the sort of usability testing, in-depth interviews, eye tracking, all of the sort of stuff and then the end of the project was just delivering insights to the designers so I had no control over the design which was really tough but it was a huge learning experience for me. These are some photos I took in those days and we literally did a lot of real field research where each project was like six months long and very, very intense and the end of it was literally just a written document that you handed over so we did projects for people like Nokia in those days. This is of course very long ago so Nokia was real. And I usually hide this project from a lot of people but I worked on this matrimonial website and I didn't do the design for this but I did a lot of the research. I interviewed a lot of potential brides and grooms and parents in India and I think it was such a humbling experience to understand how complex it is to make a website that people are using. It's not just a website and I think it made me, this whole experience of being a researcher made me a better designer eventually. So yeah, what did I learn after this stint as a researcher? I realized UX is everything, UX is the most important thing and I became a huge advocate for UX. In those days nobody knew what UX was so you always had to sort of explain the acronym what is the full form of UX, what is it, what does it mean and it was a challenge but it was also super interesting. The other thing I learned from this experience was that research does not mean that you will succeed as a business because we had a lot of clients who spent so much money on research and they still failed and then we had a lot of clients who didn't spend that much money on research and they succeeded so I knew something, I knew that I didn't know something but it was still interesting to me that it's not only about doing your research right there's so much more to it so that was interesting to me. The other thing I started to realize at this point was that there's a huge disconnect between different people who are working on a product so there's the design team, there's a business, there's research, there's engineering nobody gets along with each other, everybody's sort of in conflict in some way and this was interesting to me because I saw this as a researcher, I saw this as a designer and I was like okay this is not really right but I went on with it and in those days what happened was the technical architecture was already built out and then you did the UX and you did as much UX as you could now of course things are much better, you know you do the UX first you decide what you want the product to be and then you build out the architecture I also started to articulate at this point that I don't care about this straight line that you go from an intern to a junior designer to a mid-level designer to a senior designer to a director, I didn't really care about it and I was just like I'm just going to keep learning whatever skills I want to learn and I was okay with it because even the researcher I took a demotion to take that job and at that point people were like oh why are you doing that but I was just like hey this is super interesting so that's why I'm doing that so yeah I think it's important to say this which is that throughout especially looking back I realized that I didn't really care about the promotions that much it was more about is this interesting is this a new skill that I'm learning and I think Kenny also mentioned that in his talk you know whenever something new came along I was like hey I really want to do this this is I think the significant part of my career which is UX consultancy or design services I worked in small companies that did it, larger companies, corporates a lot of different kinds of places this is a sustainable leather factory that I worked in so it's the design team was inside the leather factory and it was super interesting to me because I'm so like from digital and always in digital and I was scared of even working with print but this was interesting because you know we had designers actually working with the leather and the materials and I said okay maybe I should try this on the top right hand corner you can see a photo of the auntie that would make all the bags and again it was sustainable and vegetable dyes and all of that so I learned a lot about material and process during this time and what I ended up doing was helping them do the interiors of all of their stores across the country so there were hundreds of stores across the country and I would work with the craftsmen to fabricate these brass cubes and then distribute them across the stores and I even started doing ops work and actually like planning how to distribute the cubes and what happened was that the cubes were made out of sand casting and sand casting is this really ancient process of working with this material and so it would take really long to make each cube and it would take even longer to ship it to the store so it was super interesting to see how much harder is it when you're not working with digital and you have to literally like do the real thing and I started to learn more and more about collaboration while I was working with all of these designers and all of these different setups it's not just about craft I realized as a designer one of your sort of main skills is working with other people whoever they are and that's kind of crucial to becoming successful so I finally went into product kind of 100% at this point started doing a lot of iphone apps, ipad apps and this was around the time that there was this massive app boom people were just making all kinds of apps and I kind of started doing that too so this is a hospital app that I worked on I worked on various industries from medical to fintech really got into the whole sort of wireframe and visual design process worked with various clients in San Francisco, in UK and kind of all over the world these are just a few images of some of the apps that I worked on and also at this point I finally got promoted and became creative director this was to be honest very important for me because personally it's something that I had always sort of imagined in my mind when I was in design school that oh I will graduate and then eventually become a creative director but I think when this actually happened I realized oh my god this is really difficult and also I was in charge of a 25% team and I realized that I had bitten off more than I could chew and it was really really tough to handle a big team like that so it was super interesting though and I learnt a lot and as I became senior management I think my picture of the disconnect between various teams became clearer I realized it's not just about design and business it's like front end and back end and QA and business and sales and marketing and the sales guy saying something to the client and the client is just like what's going on and in all of this big picture the users the actual users who are using the thing are lost and this is the kind of problem that occurs in a lot of sort of client services industries you're providing a design service but you're very limited by the structure of the team that you're in and the way the contracts are structured so it was definitely a challenge and I learnt a lot but it was also very limiting I think as a consultant and as a UX consultant you provide a fresh perspective and that's very valuable and a lot of your clients sort of value that fresh perspective but of course it's limited and when you realize it's limited it's not necessarily a bad thing it's more like you know your limitations and now you try to help them as well as you can in that sort of limited set of things that you can do so yeah the next story I want to talk about is this project I think our team even in that consultancy we wanted to do product more and more so we started doing product accelerators we took equity from apps that you know we thought were like more interesting than the rest and then we started sort of contributing to that at another level we even sort of invested in some of them I'm not sure if this is one of those accelerators but I think this is a good example because we worked really really closely with the founders we built that prototype from scratch and then they used that prototype to get funding and this was my first sort of exposure to that whole process and I was like hey this is so interesting they are building out a prototype they are putting it in the South American market so this was for a Spanish speaking audience and we didn't know so much about it but as a consultancy we did as much as we could to understand the situation but the founders obviously were the ones who were the closest to the users and that was very interesting because we were too far away to really understand their context still I did the logo for this and it was interesting because I was finally sort of coming back full circle using all of my research and wire framing skills and all of that but also coming back and doing logo design I remember I did 25 versions of this logo and my boss at the time was like are you sure about this are you like in danger of quitting and are you really frustrated I was like no it's okay because I was actually having a lot of fun doing the logo concepts and the founders were of course very difficult to work with and every option I gave them they were like no, no, no and I think over three weeks I did 25 options it was super interesting though and eventually they were happy with this and they gave us a good review and I think this company was eventually acquired but still very interesting sort of project we also worked with this other product called Checkout which is a point of sale app and that company also got acquired and eventually became like a proper product company so it was super interesting to work with all of these various apps that were kind of breaking off and becoming full blown products and services at this time I also realized designers are really hard to work with because of course you have to continuously keep them happy as a team you have to try and understand what kind of projects do they like what kind of projects do they not like I had to deal with the senior engineers who are really unhappy with some of my designers I had to understand their complaints and I was like oh yeah my designer shouldn't have said that but then you know it was just I think what I realized at this point is just people are hard to work with it's not about whether you're a designer you're not a designer or you're an engineer it's just people and people have all of these sort of different interests and as a team lead you have to kind of support them this is also the time I think I was truly I truly became a member of the world of technology I was like oh my god I love I think this whole sort of you know this sort of vast universe that is out there of digital stuff I started trying to code at this point it didn't go very well but I was still very excited about all of the options that were out there when we were making apps it was about you know version 4 or 5 4 or 5 and every time it went to 6 and 7 our clients came back to us and wanted an update so it was very interesting for us as a design team as an engineering team every time a new version of iOS came out we were super excited it was a very exciting time to be in the industry because you know going from 5 to 6 was a huge leap now I think it feels very different when a new version of iOS comes out I don't know I was also very obsessed with the Apple HIG every time I don't know how many of you have seen the human interface guidelines every time a new version came out we would all read it we would be very excited and we would talk about it when I started working it was I think about Android 2.3 which is gingerbread but then it went from sort of gingerbread to honeycomb to ice cream sandwich and it was I think one of the most exciting times was when we sort of saw the change that came from 3.0 to 4.0 because I think Ice Cream Sandwich was a turning point for Android and it also made me start to realize oh Android that's also a product and you know they are also going through product iterations and it's very difficult for them and they are struggling and how are they struggling and how are they sort of updating it rather than just being a consumer of Android or just the consumer of iOS I started to understand what they are going through as a team and you know the early versions of Android phones had hardware buttons which were the menu buttons and that had to be internalized and I was you know really feeling bad for them that they have to do something like that and that change is so difficult so I think this was another step for me to to becoming closer to understand like how difficult it is to work in product and what are the various sort of factors involved we also started having more fun with it so Google Glass came out then and 2-3 designers from my team we came up with a you know kind of concept for Google Glass and how it can be better because you know we were not happy with it so this concept actually got featured in Wired and it was very exciting for us and we also started doing agile sprints at this time of course we thought it was agile at that time but now I know that was not agile because the client wasn't there and you know somebody from the client side would maybe be there in the daily stand up but it wasn't really a daily stand up without the product owner but we tried as much as we could we had an agile coach in our team it was a 200% company so making the company agile was super difficult we had hats and badges and the agile coach would like follow you around and I was leading like four different projects so the agile coach would like follow me from one stand up to the other and like scored me if I was like not being properly agile so it was it was quite a hard I think it was not easy for me to switch to agile and that's why I have a lot of empathy for people who resist the change because I also resisted the change so it was super interesting this is also I think one of the things that I really learned out of this whole experience is you know what motivates the team I don't know there's no answer but I realized this is really hard you know when you put an app out into the store and it doesn't get featured in the top five instead it starts getting you know one star reviews and all the engineers are depressed and you know it's really difficult to motivate a team and then the client becomes very unhappy and is telling you you know why is my app getting like one star because of some silly bug and so you have to go fix that bug and sort of keeping the team together is you know really difficult I think my other big learning was management is not management it's support you're just there as a support person to do everything that needs to be done for the team so if somebody can't do something you're there to support that and pick up that slack so that's also super interesting I think as a learning the other thing I started doing was becoming a design advocate so I started talking about my design experiences I started going to workshops I started running my own workshops and attending others this is one of the sort of fellowships that I did with the British Council and this is also the time I decided to do my post-grad and I so during my post-grad in the UK I started doing installations and that's a photo of a tiny girl who really loved my installation she was very very excited she had never seen an interactive installation before and this was more of my personal practice but also of course heavily influenced by technology and then I got an offer I got an offer from an ad agency so I was very excited this was again something that I had never done before so I had to do it it was another demotion and I think this was interesting because it just sort of clarified a lot of my thinking around how teams are structured and where where is design placed in the decision tree of your company and your team and sort of your experience as a designer and your effectiveness as a designer is completely controlled by where you are in the company structure and everywhere you go whether it's a design studio or a really corporate consultancy or a smaller consultancy or an ad agency it's slightly different designers are the same everywhere it's just you know everybody is awesome it's just that depending on where you are you're either more frustrated or less frustrated about being a designer and it also made me realize why certain companies are structured in certain ways so for example Microsoft's you know teams are sort of vertically structured because you know the design team of Xbox and the design team of you know Windows is obviously not the same team it's a different team right but in Apple it's sort of horizontally structured it's the same design team working across various products and it's not that this is wrong or right it just makes sense because in Apple you want all your products to be connected you want all of them to sort of be related to each other and that's what they're working towards and so it's the same team it's the same design team across but for Microsoft obviously the Xbox design team is going to do something completely different from the Windows design team okay so yeah I worked on this project which was sort of more workshopping with ad agencies and really sort of helping them and introducing them to Agile and this is one project that I always talk about again this is a client situation where you're providing a service to a client so you're limited so we created a prototype and gave it to them and then we did a lot of workshopping so we could sort of introduce design thinking into the team and they were really happy with the website because they made a cake out of it this is kind of like I think the most fun part of being in a consultancy but also the kind of negative in that you chase the client's happiness and it's very rewarding because clients get super happy and they make a cake like this and this cake the photo was sent to me on Instagram by the head of IT in Jordan and she was really excited we gave them the prototype but it took them one year to actually build this by the way so after it was very deserving of a cake because they deserved that cake but I think it's interesting because I still don't know how useful this website is to the users I have no visibility of that all I know is it was a success because our clients were happy and that was the sort of I think for me the internal conflict of not working in product yeah, it also made me realize advertising is a whole different animal it's this whole different industry that I really don't know anything about it was a learning experience but I think I'm still learning about it the other thing I realized is a lot of designers care about awards this was news to me I think I went through my whole career completely not knowing about this but being in an ad agency made me realize that hey, this is really important in fact getting awards actually makes clients come to you and then finally I went back to product so I started working with Postman and we first started off with this very simple looking Chrome extension which had about 30, 40,000 users and we converted it into a full-blown product you know with a web app and Mac app and a CLI we also did branding so again I used my typical style to do the logo which is very sort of geometric and simple and also we used some illustrations so you can see some of the illustrations here this is what the website looks like right now which is great I think even after I'm no longer with a team they're still continuing with the branding and this is really important so I think one of the stories that's really important about product and I think really representative of Postman was we came up with this new feature called the code generation button which the team had worked on for like four or five months but then when we release it to the product to the live to the product nobody was using it and all of the engineers were depressed because they were like what happened we did all the user feedback we did all the testing and everything and everybody wanted it and then when I looked at it it looked like it was just an icon and the icon was really abstract because coming up with an icon for a feature like code generation within API testing is very abstract so I said you know what let's just make it into a text button for now and see if it works and the next day we had hundreds of people kind of tweeting at us saying my mind is blown by this new feature it wasn't a new feature it had been there forever but they finally saw it and I think this is the most rewarding part about working in product that you can make a really small change within a day it's out in production to millions of people and they instantly feel that and tell you hey we really appreciate this it's an instant sort of feedback loop and I think that's the best part of working with product so yeah what did I learn from this I learned that shipping continuously as much as you can makes you a better designer it doesn't matter how good it looks or how happy your client is what matters is are the users happy and is your business actually doing better are people actually more engaged with what you're shipping and so the more you ship the more you learn frankly it's not how many years it's how many sprints you do as a designer going life to production that's actually going to tell you how good you are the other thing I learned is metrics are your friends I've always avoided math but I think doing a lot of product automatically makes you realize if you don't understand the numbers then you don't really know what's going on and it's been really really interesting for me this is still very new to me it's only been like two years since I started doing metrics but it's been so so interesting to see user behavior sort of represented in numbers I've always done usability testing and qualitative interviews since the beginning of my career so this has been very new the other thing I learned after working with postman was don't become the gatekeeper so this is something that can happen I think without you actually realizing it you shouldn't become the approver of all designs that are going out into the product design should be sort of intrinsic in the team everyone else should also care about design and not just the designers if only the designers care then the moment those designers are gone everything falls apart so what matters is the engineers really need to care about design the marketing team really needs to care about design and that's when you are no longer the gatekeeper and even if you go everything continues and in fact keeps getting better so I think it's of course very hard to do this but this is something that was a learning for me I also started I think getting better and better at this process and setting up this process in various companies which is iterative product design where you know user feedback and insights are the center of your sort of product design process and you're continuously building, testing iterating in a sort of circular motion keep making sort of the product better keep learning from the insights because this is not a static thing which you can just hand over the industry is continuously changing technology is continuously changing and so you have to keep trying and how can we do this best in a really small lean team where everybody is working really closely together and so now I'm working with referral candy and it's been really really great because you know we've managed to set up a really good metric system to measure all of the user behavior we have qualitative testing going on and what's interesting for me is we have just launched a new product called candy bar and we're using everything that we have learned with referral candy and all of of course all my product experience to make you know candy bar better and better it's only been a few months since we launched but we've already redesigned product like four times it's super fun for both the engineering team and the design team and I think working with both referral candy and candy bar made me realize that you know it's user centric design and user centric metrics is actually the same thing so for candy bar for example the user centric metric is just making sure that our retailers have repeat customers coming back because it's a loyalty product and for referral candy our user centric metric is the referral revenue that our service helps the retailer get and so as long as that's going up and as long as those retailers are doing well it means that our product is working so it's super interesting to sort of work towards this this is a photo of Mission Juice and Joelle who is the owner of Mission Juice and he's one of our customers at candy bar and he's in Singapore so it's super interesting we are working very closely with all of these retailers to make candy bar a better product for small and medium businesses so yeah that's about it so I covered my first commercial project what it's like for design studios freelancers, researchers design services, ad agencies and product I hope that some of this was helpful to you guys I think as a parting note I just want to say that you know explore the design world really find out what you want to do and what you like to do and avoid the echo chamber I think it's easy to just sort of keep talking to people who are exactly like you in the same industry as you really explore all of the options that you have because there are infinite options out there that's it from me thank you that's my handle and we are hiring any questions? yeah any questions? yeah any thanks for the points and questions just want to get both of your input from the industry is there a single principle when you start designing or like a design philosophy which defines your style it's like when you wake up that day it's how you feel that they can design a single principle which defines your reason well I mean from my point of view it's user centered design so that's pretty like constant as long as you build something that people like and enjoy then you're good in terms of style and your personal style it's really up to you for me I try to simplify the process it's always a challenge to make it fresh and simple it's so easy to make it very complicated than fresh it's complicated so that's always my challenge any other questions? better presentation thanks for the presentation I'd like to hear your thoughts about super apps and very very focused products for example Facebook would be an example of a super app which combines many functionalities and many products together and now that you're building two products which are quite separate it's kind of like to know your thoughts about combining products and keeping it separate yeah so Facebook is like a massive platform now and that's okay I think that's just how that's probably the plan that they had from the beginning and accidentally and I think even for Canibar eventually we will maybe combine all the products together so it's more about what is your big vision for the product what is the big sell so for example for referral candy and Canibar our big sell is we want to really help the small medium businesses companies like Starbucks don't need to help with building their own loyalty programs right it's the smaller guys who are like having trouble going into digital that need our help and so that's our big vision and if we have to make more products around that and more stuff around that that's fine so I think it's very important to have that big vision so you're not just building a product for the sake of it you have an overarching kind of goal towards it so for example Facebook may internally you know connecting people obviously it started off as a Facebook but I'm sure Mark Zuckerberg always had this big picture that he was building towards and is still building towards I noticed you mentioned there were two very different metrics for the two products that you built what was your process coming up with that and let's say how will you how will you then align her as a design wow that's a very difficult question so I think the metric for referral candy is easier to define because the product has been live for many years we have a lot of customers it's doing very well and we've grown a lot as a team to better define what is the sort of success metric for referral candy and so we can clearly say yes it's referral revenue and if a retailer is getting more and more referral revenue that means that our service is working for them candy bar is still a very new product it's a loyalty service we're still figuring it out and so right now I'll tell you that it's about loyalty and it's about getting repeat customers but in the future if we learn more about the product then we can change it so it's not like some kind of rigid thing that this is the metric that will never change we are constantly measuring lots of different stuff and we try to understand what's connected what's leading to what and should we change it so that flexibility has to be there no worries no questions right the first is regarding to the second question so how can you ensure the quality of the research in order to actually success the second question is the story you talked about our 25 clients like some of the 25 different types of local and I was wondering is there a way to maybe come up with a way to know what is your approach when it comes to really laying out the requirements or an artistic question sense for the local so there is less back and forth of the design so your first question I think it's about execution so when you say that good research doesn't necessarily lead to success I think in hindsight I would say that it's because no matter how good your research is if you don't execute quickly and on time then your research automatically becomes too old and redundant even if you do a 6 month project if the industry has changed by the end of 6 months then the value of the research is continuously reducing and as I mean in those days it may not have been that bad but now it's like really bad to spend 6 months doing research so it's not just about research I think it's because execution is important how well your execution was is important and it's not just a one time thing once you push something out you have to continuously iterate and for your other question about logos I think it really depends on the person especially with logo design it's such a personal thing you are making a logo for somebody's company which they own and which they are going to live with for the rest of their life so I think there has to be some empathy and understanding with the founder they really need to like this logo a lot because they own the company especially for small businesses I think for larger businesses it's different because there's more people involved and marketing is involved with an individual you just have to understand that person and it's more about a personal relationship I think with that particular example it did go slightly out of control and I could have managed it I could have played with it at that time so I think it depends on how do you want to manage it I think one thing that I usually used to do in those days is just present two options or maybe just present one option don't present any options that's one way but of course more risky the other thing is also to establish your expertise as a designer hey I know what I'm doing but it's of course very hard okay any other questions okay I think that's it okay thanks everyone