 joining us on Think Tech Hawaii. And if in addition to joining us, you can go to the website, click the little donate button, help support us, help keep these difficult conversations to make good trouble going, help get the word out there to stand up, to speak up, and listen up. And today for that, we have with us for the first time on Think Tech Hawaii, TK Brown-Taylor, who is not only the owner president of Brownstone Mediation Services, she is a leader in Augusta and beyond in human relations consulting, specializing in dispute resolution options for the conflict of person, business, and organization. So if conflicts are your bane, TK is the one to consult. Jeff Portnoy, our leading First Amendment lawyer, leading partner at the highly respected Cade Shuddy firm here, a longtime friend, and also to remind people, Jeff has been a leading board member and supporter for the Manoa Valley Theater here, one of Hawaii's probably fair to say two leading community theater organizations. And they are going to be presenting in March Dear Evan Hansen, which I highly, highly commend to all of you. Get your tickets and go and support Manoa Valley Theater, which also has its fundraiser in March. So that's our pitch for today. We are going to jump down the rabbit hole into difficult stuff. And having learned from my small town, Northern Louisiana mom, that ladies first, is still a good principle. TK, what out there right now catches your attention as, wait a minute, we need to think about this. This needs to be understood and dealt with. What's issue number one on your agenda? Oh, wow. You don't play around, do you? I do not. That is a very loaded question, because I could go anywhere from here locally in the community to worldwide, as you know, having been an airman in these United States Air Force for 22 years. And so I could respond to that for so many, so many ways. But really, it's been. And some people know, when TK says she's been an airman for 22 years, she did start when she was six. And that is correct. Good job. Good job there. High five there. So, absolutely, it's this and I'm a little biased because of the work that I do, but it's really around why and the whole premise of your podcast. And I'm really thankful for the invitation and glad to be here to join you alongside of you. But it's this misunderstanding around conflict, this abnormal relationship with conflict. And as I was sharing with the community leader just yesterday, that so many of our leaders are more comfortable operating in dysfunction. So for me, that's in all areas of everything that I just share, from the space that I share, from a military standpoint, from a community leader, and some of these boards I serve on, from a political standpoint, all this front page things that are going on, it's really around human relations. People not being able to engage well, don't have the capacity or the confidence. And because they don't, they put their foot in their mouth, they just outright do bad things. So, Jeff, let's turn to you. Is there anyone out there on our scene in any area? Need not be political leadership, it can be any area. Anyone that you would look at as an exemplar of that kind of being able to deal well with conflict, that kind of relationship management? Let me answer your first question first as to what's at risk. And it's just one word, and it's not really that important, but democracy. Democracy is at risk in the United States and in many other countries around the world. Answer your second question. You know, there are spiritual leaders that still have enormous respect, not in the United States in particular, but around the world. There are probably some politicians in certain places around the world that have respect. Again, I'm not too sure anybody in the United States can meet the majority in that regard, but that doesn't mean there are some people that are trying. I'm sure there's some business leaders and philanthropists who some people would respect and follow for their contributions to nonprofits and social and moral issues. Oprah Winfrey. No, I really don't know who that might be, but I don't see any messiah on the horizon, but they're hard to find. TK, anybody out there that you think exemplifies exactly what you and Jeff are talking about? I do. Very much so that are in my immediate circle. And those that, when you ask the question, the first person that came to my mind was Denzel Washington. Though he is not. Though he is not. Someone that everybody nationally, and the reason why I say Denzel is because that someone to Jeff's point is that it's internationally, maybe not just US that's recognizable, but he was the first person, and one that is relatable, that is able to cross all these things that we often get stuck at, meaning race, profession, and by profession, I mean industry that they're in. I think he could cross over to athletics, popular culture, and he has been seen, even with the whole ordeal around, and that's the most recent one that comes in mind around Will Smith that is probably the crossover. When we talk about politicians, spiritual leaders, all these different people that, from young or old who have a ton of respect for it and people watch how they react and behave. He was one of the centerpieces of being able to bring these folks together, and so he was one of the first persons because just out of those human relations, he's very thoughtful, someone that just seems to have good home being raised well. And so Denzel just seems to have all those values that you not only aspire to see and have in a leader, but he definitely has that one, likeability, that relatability, and he certainly can stand on it. It's just not because he's nice looking, great actor, sort of kind of thing. He's kind of proven his track record. If you've ever listened to any of his speeches, any of his commencement speeches, any of his, that he goes on the shows, when he's promoting his shows, he's always talking about life and in some kind of wisdom that not only young and old people can take, but so Denzel will be that person and just come to mind and that I will put him up against, the Pope put him up against a politician, local politician, up against another professional, although, of course, he's an actor, so we don't have to give him up. I think the closest we may have come in the last two decades is probably Obama, but that reputation got tainted very quickly by the people that didn't like him, didn't like his policies. But at the time, in 19, what was it, 2008, I think there was this feeling that he was this super individual who could bring the country together. Unfortunately, it didn't happen and I don't think there's anyone right now and I think Denzel Fajig did, when I've seen him on television, I don't go to a lot of his movies, but I think he's very articulate and seems to be non-controversial and is willing to speak on important social issues. Problem is the country is so divided, there's no one person. You can probably get 40% of the people to find somebody that they would admire and follow and the other 40% would say, I mean, if you really wanna know, Donald Trump has 35 to 40% of the country following him like he is the Messiah, no matter what he does, no matter what he says, no matter what happens to him. And it's not decreasing, it's unfortunately increasing. And of course on the other 40%, they could probably find someone that they admire. So anyway, Chuck, I think the problem is that in our country, there's no one. And would someone come out of the ashes that could appeal to a significant majority of the country? I don't see it, but you never know. Well, I would just have a different take on the perspective of Obama and love him to life, you know, have been in the same space with him, never personally met him. I don't know that I would agree that he is that person or could have been that person. I think because he was the first, that is the reason and or the justification that he would certainly could be, is reasonable to put him in that place. But I can tell you, and I think that's what you were alluding to, Jeff, that a huge part of the community would probably pick his wife over him. Yeah, and you're right. At least in my son's name. Yeah, Michelle Obama might welcome him. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, and so that's what I'm gonna lead with, that if there was a woman, and certainly she wasn't the first person I thought of, but certainly I'm thinking like, you know, is there a woman that could do it? And certainly she would be the first person that I could do it. I actually do believe Oprah can do it, but that's only because of Oprah's who she is. Is she the best person to do it? That part, I don't agree. Yeah, I was kind of being a little facetious and it's not a criticism. I know you were. I know you were. It's not a criticism of Oprah. It's kind of an indictment of who that person could be. You know, she's done a lot of good things. She's got millions and millions of people that listen to her and follow her. She said, go see color purple and people drop everything they're doing to go see color purple. She has a book club. I mean, you know, she's got a significant minority that admire and respect her and for good reason, but I'm not sure she'd get very far in Idaho. Well, that's what I'm saying. I know you were being funny about it, but I actually in being, you know, comedic about it, I believe that Oprah could, but I don't believe Oprah would be the right person to do it because I don't believe that she has the skills necessary to do it. But I do believe because of her influence and, you know, her crossover appeal and everything that she's involved in and power and money. I think that she certainly, you know, whoever she gets behind, she's gonna make a mark or they're gonna be a contender for whoever, for whoever, if Oprah signs off. And that's spot on. And what's interesting is there seem to be a couple of parallel tracks here, which kind of relate to the through the looking glass down the rabbit hole theme. One is, you know, talking about actual personas and Michelle Obama, if anyone saw her speech, her talk to the National Education Association at the end of her time in the White House, there was not a dry eye in the room. She talked with teachers about exactly this role, exactly this responsibility to bring people together by learning together and how critically important in the home, in the schools, in life, that really is. And there was a message there that I could see on the expressions of the people around her, took it registered with them, that what she's saying is core truth. It's core value stuff. And for me, when somebody asked me one time, who should be Biden's running mate, that was the first name, not Kamala, who has some strengths and some that are not ideal, but Michelle, I think, could have brought to the table and have been positioned at this point to give us a leadership option that would be way healthier, way more core value connected for us. And there's another thing going on that people have commented to us about these sessions. And one is that, you said, Chuck, I love you guys. You talk about really heavy stuff, but there's so much mutual respect and appreciation between everyone that participates in these, Vernelia and Jeff and Sandra Sims and Tina Patterson and Rebecca Ratliff and Louise Ng and all of us, Ben Davis, that do this. They said, but what I love the most about these shows, the friend was saying, is you guys have fun with this stuff. This is heavy, heavy, potentially really saddening, disheartening stuff, and you have fun with it because you approach it as, how do we find human value in that heavy topic? What's the human value that, for example, Michelle Obama brings, that might be really important for all of us now? TK, thoughts? Well, it goes back to upbringing and raising. Values, you can tell, and then she's very vocal about her values and what's important to her. And certainly what appeals to me about her is she is just this down home person that you can easily relate to. She talks about being home. She talks about the things that connect in a sense of being from a troubled area in Chicago and what that meant, some of her own struggles. She talked about the struggles in her marriage, of things being a black woman and as the first lady of these United States that are relatable to me in my own experience being in leadership position in workplaces. So on so many levels, her values of just being so passionate about the example that you gave education and young people and youth, that was her platform. But I don't believe that was her platform just because she was the first lady. I believe that was her platform because that is what is important to her. And certainly her children are important to her. And so for me, and I'm sure others, it's because she is just this around the way and she approached spaces, not as the first lady as she could, with her nose up in the air and I'm the first lady, I'm important, lay out the green carpet, red carpet for me. She, you know, she gets- Oh, Nancy Reagan stuff, huh? Well, you said it, you said it, I didn't. I didn't, you didn't. But if you pay attention to her interviews, every space that she occupies, she's goofy and she's laughing. And she's interacting with the person interviewing her as a friend, as someone, you know? Well, I- That she's known a while. Yeah, that's very well put. I think the problem is, and I wouldn't use values because I think the problem is, we don't have a common set of values anymore. The values are not the same and they become so disparate. I would use the word tolerance because I think tolerance leads to an understanding of someone's values and an understanding of why they may differ than yours but it doesn't change the ultimate goal is a society that gets along, that can reach consensus, even the values are different. And Chuck, you know, I've done enough of these shows and I love the people you have on, including today, but candidly, we all have very similar values and very similar political beliefs. And you know, I think it would be, it's not, I'm not saying it should happen, but I think if we had one of the people who rioted at the Capitol as one of your guests, we might have a different show. I mean, you know, and that's the scary part and in the last 48 to 72 hours, you look what happened in Iowa, even though it's a very small number, even of the Republicans and you see the exit and entrance polls and you see that a third of the country still doesn't believe that Biden was elected. It's hard to understand values. So I think that's really where this country has gone sideways and unfortunately, they have an individual who continues to foster distrust, hatred, you name it and it's just a very sad situation. You know, and that's a really, really important insight, Jeff, because the disconnect from values is a disconnect from truth. Yes. What's happening out there, TK? How do we reconnect values and truth? Because I'm sure you do that in your work. Well, I'm so glad that Jeff came back with tolerance as his word and because I don't think that we have to have, clearly we are in a space where values are not my grandmother's values. Even when I think about someone that was born by the same mother, my siblings don't value the same things I value. You know, and if I just give you the double of my brother visited me back in May. And so I do agree that the values are different, but it's okay for values to be different. We want values to be different. And so I love that you came back with the word tolerant because how can we become more tolerant of what you value and what I value as important? And I think to the question around, how do we get back to values? That's a really tough one because then we have to appeal to what's important to people. But it goes back to, I think the point that Jeff was saying about the statistic around a third of all these folks who are still supporters of Trump. I don't know that it's really connected to values. I think, Chuck, as you stated, it's connected to acceptance of the truth and a choice. Everything is a choice. I choose to make this decision to align myself or agree with and maybe it's a value. Maybe it's not because I value, but the reality is, is because I accept what is and what is not. And that is the truth or that is the reality. The problem is, we have no consensus on what's true. That's the problem. It used to be, people believed in science and demonstrable truth. And no more, no more. And that's whether it's vaccines or UFOs or who won the election. There's no consensus on truth. And you look at the disparaging, I'm sorry, the discrepancy getting old, between college educated people and non-college educated people on one issue after another and the different truths are obvious. And I'm not saying college makes a difference, but we don't have a common understanding of truth. I don't think any, I'd like to hear TK or you or Chuck, give me something that you think 95% of the country agrees with. Maybe if they look outside and the sun is out and they'll say, oh, it's a sunny day, but sure to that, I'm not sure this truth that we can get an overwhelming majority agreed to. Anyway, that's a little non-optimistic, but I think it's a reality. I think you're right. And I started laughing soon as you said it because I was sitting in church last night in the comment or the topic we were talking about, the leader, one of the leaders in the church said that exact thing. He discounted everything that we were discussing we were saying because you cannot put faith in or believe in or truth in science. And so that was funny that you used that example because that's exactly, and so of course everybody was co-signing him, so I agree with you. I do think that everyone agrees that they can have what they want, when they want, how they want right now. Well, that's what they want, but they don't have it and that's why they're so angry, right? That's why so many people are angry because all of the convicted felons and drug dealers and now according to Trump people from mental institutions are invading our country and taking our jobs and raping our women and doing all these horrible things and people believe it because that's their truth because their leader has told them that's the truth when there's absolutely no evidence of any of it. And it's not just, I wasn't disparaging people that don't go to college. I have really good friends who are college educated that are still good friends of mine even though we disagree on almost anything and they won't budge on what they believe the truth is. They're convinced that the election was stolen. They're convinced no matter what I try to show them, it's made up, it's CNN, it's phony and these are intelligent people so it's not a very optimistic future when people like that have their own belief in what's true when you put the facts in front of them and they say, those aren't facts. Those are someone's made up facts. Those are alternative truths. So let me ask this question. Yeah, and then we'll go right to you. Let me ask this question because probably all of us not only know but are very, very close to people maybe even within our own family who are part of that alternative universe that disconnected from truth universe that divided from people. No, no, Chuck, you're disconnected from truth in their view, they're not disconnected from truth. And that perception is absolutely accurate. I'm disconnected from truth. Right, but the difference is we're connected to each other. They are not necessarily connected to each other. They all seem to be individuals out there. They will duplicate and reflect each other's. They're like the Red Queen's little army, right? There may be different numbers on their playing card but they're essentially all the same suit. So what example can we give that shows even with that level of disconnection from truth, disconnection from each other, we can still connect as human beings in ways that are truly caring. I do that with my son. I do that with my late brother's wife who is as much a sister to me as my own blood sister. I do that with friends whose perspectives exactly as you say, Jeff, are in no agreement with mine. They are 180 degrees opposite. And yet as people we connect, we care for each other, we listen to each other, we respect each other. And so I'm wondering if maybe what needs to happen is exactly what you inferred earlier, Jeff. Take those who are most different, put them in a common environment in which they have to learn to coexist, in which their existence depends on their ability to be able to sustain each other. Because if you look at the environments in which that has happened, those people have come to live with each other. Where's that? Think about it. Let me ask you, where do people live well with each other despite huge differences? I'm asking you, the Middle East, Eastern Europe. I mean, I'm being facetious. I mean, the United States, when you've got two societies right now, you have a society living on the East Coast and a society living on the West Coast, the same essentially. And then a whole different society between the two mountains changed, the Alecani and the Rockies. And people living where they wanna live with people who believe the same things they do and they feel threatened, Chuck, by these outsiders, you know? I mean, that's just where this country is right now. And has it been here before? Probably, you know, we did have a civil war. Of course, not because of slavery, I understand. But we did have a civil war. You know, the countries, that's the problem I have. I think your goal is fantastic. But we don't have the right person. I don't know if that person exists that can do that. Can they make the people who live in Montana appreciate, even though they don't have the same values that the people living in inner city, Augusta, are good people and want the same ultimate things in life? That's not where we are. Well, I think that part of the problem is that we want to identify one person. This work is not the work of one person. Yes. True. So that's where we fail. And I think even when I think back to Obama, I loved everything about him for the most part. There was some policy that I didn't necessarily agree with. But because we thought he was just this, come savior, save the world, then we were utterly disappointed and not we as in me personally. But just going back to that, is that people prefer to believe a lie over the truth. It goes back to what I was sharing. Is that it's a choice. Everything we do is a choice. It is an actionable choice. So people choose and I think to your, well, how do we engage and how do we approach it Chuck? Is that even with those that are different with us, who are educated, who are smart experience, we stay in it with them. We be resilient. Because people don't care what you told them. They care about what you showed them. Do I show you that I value what you say, even though I don't agree with you. So as long as we keep people talking and communicating with them and keep them in the circle, in the conversation, in the dialogue, and they see us as good people, meaning how we operate outside of the conversation, they will, I don't agree with TK, but I respect TK. I like TK. And as long as they respect and like TK, they're willing to stay in the conversation and maybe just maybe when they're out, pouring out this filter, pouring out these untruths, they will also mention the other perspective that they got from TK. Oh, I believe this way, but the others believe that way and whatever support in their context, those that are different in sharing around that particular subject, I do believe those individuals will do that. And then also recognizing that there's always gonna be exceptions, right? Some people we just can't say. That's right. So we're out of time for today and we're definitely gonna want and need to come back to this because when we solve everything today, we didn't do that? Well, we got down the rabbit hole. How close did we get to solving all these problems today? I think we have the players on the stage. We got the red queen and we got, you know, the white rabbit, we got everybody but Grace Slick and Jefferson Airplane out there. But one pill makes you larger, right? But what we do have is an ability to look at the units, the groups that we know in which those differences are less than the whole in which the we is greater than the me and the thee. Those are where we need to start. And if we can put those in, where do they happen? In a learning context, you can put 20-something children in a classroom who can get along really, really well with each other. Yeah, they'll go out and know there we bullies and arguments and fights out at recess, letting steam out. Maybe that's just energy dissipating. But you can have groups of people that are more than just one or two or three who can put the group first over the individual differences. And you're exactly right. How do we get there? Because that's our survival. They play well in the sandbox until they go home. And then things bad happen in too many households. You know, black and white kids get along all along when they're six and eight and 10 we've all seen. And I'm just using black and white. You can use whatever you want. Even Jews and Arabs. I mean, you can take the most contentious, you know, opposite things that are not getting along in the real world. Kids get along wonderfully. Something happens. Something happens when they go home and they get a little older. And social media we haven't even touched, which I think has been the most disruptive force. All the good, it's the most disruptive force this country has ever seen. And if I had to pick one thing that I think is causing so much of what we've talked about is being wrong or evil or why can't we fix it? Just look at your iPhone. And so we're way past our time, but just to finish up for today, a very, very short real life story. When my son, my youngest was five, maybe six years old, we would still at the end of the day I'd read to him at night. And I was reading a story about inner city, New York, in which the white kids treated the black kids really badly. And my son looked at me here in Hawaii and he's Vietnamese American. And he said, they didn't really do that. And I said, way worse than that. Way, way worse, much more cruel, much more harmful things than that. And he looked at me with the look of a five-year-old. That purity of connection of heart and mind and said, stupid. And I know what he meant. He didn't mean an idiot. He meant someone who does not exercise the human intelligence to understand value and respect other people. That's what we need to do. For today, thanks, Aloha, TK, Jeff, phenomenal. Thanks for going down the rabbit hole. See ya, thanks, TK. Aloha. You too.