 HBCU Digest Radio, welcome back another engaging conversation on high topics in historically black colleges and universities. Today we are privileged to have Ms. Charelle Dorsey, she is the founder and CEO of the plug is a exceptional daily tech newsletter that is specifically drilling down to the culture and issues and investigative reporting on blacks in the tech society in tech circles. So, Madam CEO, it is a pleasure to have you on today. It's such a pleasure, I've been following HBCU Digest for a while now so it's really awesome to be able to connect with you and your listeners today. You are far too kind. So this is a big topic that we're going to be talking about because the plug recently did a story which I think is actually groundbreaking in a lot of ways and speaks to a lot of levels of what's going on with HBCUs in 2019 and beyond and that is an exploration of the number of patents that HBCUs have received, I think since the 1960s through 2017 or 2018. So this is actually through 2012, so that was our most recent data available, yes. And the baseline of what we're talking about here is over that period of time, 100 HBCUs have produced just over 100 patents and that is, that's a scary number. Talk a little bit about this story and the data that you guys discovered and your reaction once you, you know, once the story was published or you're preparing to publish, what did you think about what the story told you? Yeah, I mean, so we actually just added a data reporter, Anissa Holm, to our team who created a lot of our visualizations, particularly for this piece and so she and I just decided, you know, it's super important for us to be able to tell this story, not just like, hey, you know, HBCUs are lacking, but to have this kind of be the first iteration and exploration of, you know, what has happened through the last couple of years, where we started to see some momentum and then also what are the top HBCUs that are producing the highest number of patents, even if these are still kind of small in scale compared to, you know, sort of state institutions. So part of that, of course, was a bit disparaging, right? Because we know that, you know, over a 40 year period for there to, you know, to be such a low number, it really says a lot about not necessarily the talent that's being produced by HBCUs, right? When we look at institutions, you know, especially if we look at like NCA&T, Howard, Morehouse and the individual institutions that are specifically responsible for producing black tech talent that does exist, you know, that does exist in Silicon Valley from, you know, tech startups to Google to what have you, we know that there is not a deficit of investment in these students. However, there appears to be based on this data and some of the other external conversations that we are having with kind of academic professionals as it relates to the lack of investment towards assisting students and faculty in developing and creating intellectual property opportunities. And so the second part of this study that we're going to be exploring is looking at the year 2013 until present and really looking at what is that timeline for patent approval, right? And sometimes it can take a few years, so we're super interested in seeing over the last about five years how has that changed, has the institutions that are applying for patents have that changed. And a part of the other part of the conversation as well is going to be, you know, which sort of departments, right? What kind of intellectual property is going to be explored? So this being our preliminary story to start laying out, hey, you know, we're not seeing as much activity with HBCU helps us to ask other questions around funding, around, you know, what things are actually being produced and where either our state or federal dollars, our private donors, where they need to be plugging in to ensure that, you know, that there is value creation because we know that patents mean more funding, particularly for colleges of all sorts. So that's kind of the thinking and a nutshell in the way that we reported this piece. Yeah, let's talk about that notion of the revenue that's tied to patents. So a lot of people listening may understand, you know, patent is, you know, a license that you hold or, you know, creative property that you own on a technology or, you know, a concept. But how does that yield you revenue and why is that so important in higher education? Yeah, it's absolutely. So the patent, those intellectual property pieces are the foundation for a lot of the technologies that, you know, are in existence today or will be in existence in the future. And so when universities have those patents and they're able to license them out, it's like, you know, it's like a software license, right? Like, you know, if you pay for like the Microsoft Office week, you're paying, I don't know, what is it, $120 a year, right? And technically you'll be paying that as long as you want to have that product on your laptop, right? So think about it in that sense and just kind of try to break this down as simply as possible. So think about what can be licensed from these institutions, you know, be they other academic institutions, R&D departments for major technology companies or businesses or even just the creation of businesses as a result of these patents, the opportunities for this IP to be housed within these universities and institutions for other people to pay for to have access to. And so, again, this revenue generator is kind of an ongoing, you know, we love to use the word passive income stream, but, you know, it's sort of like, you know, passive income stream that is being missed by, you know, HBCUs that are not producing enough IP. And the other fascinating thing about your story is that the majority of the hundred or so patents that have been created at HBCUs, they're highly concentrated at the flagship public black colleges and the big private HBCUs. So Howard Hampton, Morehouse School of Medicine, Florida A&M, North Carolina and T, that's where the bulk of those patents are. And then based on your period of coverage, those were created over between a two year period between 2010 and 2012. What I mean, what stands out about and it speaks to your point about, OK, what's been going on since 2013 to 2018, we may have had any more. But did that surprise you that even the biggest and I guess the most elite institutions really got busy in the in the patented, you know, properties area in the, you know, the last half of this decade, essentially. Yeah, absolutely. It was definitely surprising. And I think there's a couple of sort of anecdotal ideas that we're kind of toiling around with on my team around, well, you know, was there any kind of major donor or, you know, any major funding that came through during those years, you know, was it easier because there was some kind of technical transfer technology upgrade happening at these institutions or maybe there was some corporate investment. We do know that, you know, some of these these tech companies have been partnering with black colleges like a Google West or what have you. Is there a focus? Was there a change in leadership? Because leadership plays a tremendous role on what's being created in the direction of the institution itself, right? So so those are other kind of follow up questions that we have to ask in our reporting to understand. Yeah, why was there a flux? You know, why was there a flux? But then also, why was there a tremendous dip, you know, in early 2000s, you know, you know, why, why were some of these smaller institutions like Alabama, A&M, you know, or Delaware State? What have you, why was there a 30 year stretch of no creation? And then you are starting to see creation in the later, you know, 2010s. Again, you know, what kind of, what happened in terms of resource change, leadership change, or even technology change that helped to fuel that creation and more important, are we going to see an upwards trend as we start to analyze data and pending patent applications over the over the last five years? Right. Let's let's talk a little bit about your experience as a tech creator, tech journalist, entrepreneur. Yeah, you've done a lot of business with a lot of companies connecting them with with black communities and black tech creators, right? So yeah, from your view, is there a common trend that you have found among individual entrepreneurs and maybe, you know, groups that are that are working to get into Silicon Valley and working to create products? Is there a trend that you see that makes people or groups of people more attractive to big companies or venture capitalists to say, yeah, we want to invest in that. And is that something that you think can scale up to institutions possibly embedding into their faculty? Yeah, I think the answer is yes, across the board. I think that, you know, we have to remember sometimes a lot of the narrative that's been shared, especially because black innovation and the black innovation economy as a whole has been so under reported and it hasn't been reported with with empirical data, right? And so a lot of times, you know, we're only kind of seeing what is available to us. So I kind of, you know, anecdotally think about my cousins who went to Morehouse and Clark and, you know, got mathematics and software engineering degrees and, you know, worked, worked and trained at GM as plant managers and what have you and kind of started off in these big institutions, right? We have to think about, even if we think about like the mesby conferences, right? And, you know, there are a lot of like large scale employers back in the day and, you know, they've really, for the last 70 years, been that pipeline provider, you know, in connector between sort of large institutional corporations and some of the, you know, kind of black STEM talent in particular. We know that, you know, HBCU are producing talent that, you know, are working all across the globe. And so, you know, in terms of representation, you know, be it you went to an HBCU for undergrad or grad or grad school, you know, there's no shortage, you know, there's definitely been no shortage there. But as it relates to, I think the kind of the ongoing shift that's currently happening, and again, I think that there could be kind of a multi-pronged response to this where you have individuals who went to HBCU, who are now in awesome positions at, you know, at tech companies, be they on the DNI team, the HR team, what have you, I know a couple of folks who are like at Amazon, who are part of the Black State Amazon network, who are actively, you know, pushing for these companies to say, listen, let's not just hire from, you know, Harvard or Stanford, or MIT, let's also partner up with HBCU. So you're starting to see this trend upwards of companies saying, oh, yeah, for the first time, we just learned about what HBCUs are, right, which is absolutely absurd. But, but hey, well, maybe there's talent there as well. And, you know, as you and I were discussing earlier, you know, Google opening the Google West Campus or even, you know, having their New York office make space for Black Girls Code, you're seeing this kind of new shift in change and in the way that companies are starting to recruit. You had, you had organizations like Code 2040 that helped to place students, you know, into internships at these local tech companies and exposing them to like Silicon Valley based companies for the very first time. And you're seeing a concerted effort, I think, industry wide around what does diversity and inclusion mean. And a lot of times, again, that also means starting with these HBCUs. I'll also say, you know, there's the initiative out of Atlanta called OHUB, which produces the HBCUs at South by Southwest, which is the largest tech conference that's been going on for, I think, almost two decades. Largest global tech conference in Rodney Sampson and his wife and business partner, Sarita Sampson, who have brought, you know, over 200 plus HBCU students to South by Southwest in a formal partnership with the actual conference and have, you know, students going through curriculum and meeting with actual employers from places like Bozan Allen and, sorry, Bozan Allen Hamilton and some other, like, toping companies. And so I think there's a shift and there's definitely new opportunities. Now, again, does this mean that it's completely saturated that, you know, every single HBCU of the 100 plus that exists has access? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. But again, there is a trend towards deeper partnerships here. What's your position on how these companies engage with black communities? Because you know, as a content creator and one who works in this community, like, it's one thing to say or have companies tell you, yes, we want to be more engaged in hiring black folks and, you know, creating more and developing more black talent. But it's another thing when, you know, I'll take this from two tiers. One, when that talent is competing against talent from Asia, you know, from Hispanic companies and, you know, the wide world of diversity, so to speak. So with that, and then the notion that companies can can put you into a job and say, Hey, we're diverse, but there's no upward mobility. There's no opportunity to create. How do you kind of navigate that space and continue the advocacy when companies are kind of like, you know, at least from the numbers, diversity, okay, whatever. Yeah, yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, and this is kind of sort of a concern into this conversation of the DNI space, you know, I always I've always grown up with the belief that, you know, these institutions and systems were not designed for us anyway. So why are we desperately trying to convince them otherwise? Right. And so while, again, I think that everyone that wants to have a job at one of these top tech companies, you know, definitely look for global experience because you're right, you know, you're absolutely right in that we're not just competing kind of internally in America, but you know, across the world. So it probably does be who, you know, today's undergrad or today's grad student to be looking for global experience or at least with companies that have a global present so that you do have an opportunity to go work out of offices elsewhere. That's definitely a strategy that we should be employing. I think the second piece to that question around like, you know, hey, is this more of a publicity stunt, or is there going to be some action? The reality is, whether it's a publicity stunt or not, it definitely behooves black colleges and leadership to say, okay, yeah, I know you just want to drop this $100,000 and walk away, but I'm going to make you earn this. I'm going to make you work for this. I want to have some metrics tied to how many students we actually place in your internship programs, or how many scholarships you sponsor, or how many students come to your conferences, what have you. I think there has to be some, some strategic insight on the schools, individual schools part to, to make sure that companies aren't just there to take the photo off with, you know, with the big check and walk away. And it also behooves students to get on their job, right? At the end of the day, like anybody can drop any sort of what have you, whatever opportunity. And the reality is, the reality is, when I look at my cousins who came out of black colleges, you know, maybe More House and Clarks didn't necessarily have relationships with these companies, but my cousins went and they sat in the room where they knew that they could get, they could get some access. Absolutely. So I think that, that takes, it takes some hustle there. And then I think lastly, my unsolicited opinion really is that this conversation on intellectual property creation at the institutional level, it also sets the stage for what entrepreneurship looks like coming out of these colleges, right? And so we're, we're, I think the conversation of like, yes, you know, Facebook, you know, black employee demographics are very abysmal, right? But do I really need to go knock down the door at Facebook and put my finger at them? Well, no. Well, what if I go and create my own platform, right? And the institution, the anchor institution that supported me and built me up, also provides for me incubator space to incubate my business and they have access to funding so I can get some seed, some seed money to start my company. And I have access to the research departments, the labs in order to build my IP. So I think that the, the conversation is much more than can we get, you know, students coming out of black colleges jobs or just black students in general getting out of colleges to get jobs. But are we turning them into the kind of global competitor that can create product and can create, you know, IP that that they can build wealth and institutions for themselves. And not every HBCU was set up like that, right? What kind of, and again, this is this is again, ongoing reporting, you know, for my team, but but how many HBCUs out of the hundred and seven that exist today have innovation centers, you know, especially compared to the reality that there are some that are failing, there are some that are, they're facing accreditation issues. So if your attention is on survival mode, are you actually able to make the kinds of investments necessary to ensure that you have the kind of talent or you're producing the kind of talent that can become top drivers for IP creation at your institution. And a lot of times, and I'm sure that the data will support this once we collect it, the answer is going to be no, right? The answer is going to be no. If you, if your dorm rooms haven't been made over in the last three years, chances are you don't have a dedicated center to invest, you know, a twenty five thousand dollar grant into a student that wants to create a new polymer. That's probably just not going to be the case. So we know that there are structural challenges at HBCUs and operational management challenges as well, which has a direct effect on what is able to be produced. And so anyway, we want to definitely tackle the heart of that. But again, with this notion that how do we produce the next wave of of entrepreneurs that are walking out of colleges with essentially their, you know, we talk about the mill ticket, but they're walking out with their mill ticket and they can say to potential employers or even to the digital business partners or potential investors. Yeah, I created this. I create I, you know, I got I got a patent while I was at school and undergrad. Like, do you know how much negotiating power you have when that happens? And so anyway, that's kind of the full scale picture. So it's so impressive that you made these comments because part of your story talked about the ties between HBCU enrollment and why these patent numbers aren't where we might hope they would be because you don't have enough internal revenue from from your enrollment base. So if you're in your if your enrollment is going down, you cannot have the revenue on hand to hire more faculty or to hire teacher assistants or to hire, you know, additional, you know, staff that can help faculty develop those patents develop that technology. So it all links together. And even to your point, you know, about, you know, why do we keep knocking on their doors? Part of our challenges, you know, this as a content creator is just fighting the cynicism within our own community. Hey, this is a this is a thing for us. Why don't y'all read it? No, I'd rather look at Facebook. So yeah, yeah, we got a lot of work to do, but I'm so thankful that you are doing it and and being unafraid and bold about these conversations. And I, you know, I'm grateful that I can, you know, follow your lead, at least in the higher education specter and say, look, what are the things that we can do to build autonomy? So this is is so impressive for me and such honor for me. Before we jet, can you let everyone know where they can find more information about you because you do speeches, you do consultation, you do events, there's so much stuff that you do around black tech. And I'm really hopeful that, you know, all the administrators at HBCs out there have heard what you had to say and want to bring you in to do that kind of consulting thing and to speak to students and really inspire them to hire planes of, you know, entrepreneurial development and and creation. So tell us where we can find more about you, where we can book you and and tell us about all of you, all of your publications so we can subscribe. Absolutely. So definitely check out the plug daily dot com. We produce original stories and reporting. We've been kicking that off. We have an amazing team of black technologists and black journalists that are are killing it. And we've got some great databases that we're that we're pulling together and doing original research on. So that again is a plug daily dot com. We have a daily newsletter that goes out Monday through Friday. There's a weekly option, but it keeps you abreast of and on top of what's happening in the black tech innovation economy. And just all those things that you need to know kind of walking into your day about who's doing what who creating what who's building what. And then, you know, I am always on Twitter. And I'm just charelle underscore Dorsey across all my social media platforms. And yeah, I kind of live wherever there is Wi Fi. I do a lot of work in Charlotte. I do a lot of work in Charlotte. So I have a company called Black Tech Charlotte and we work to advance black entrepreneurship and technologists within the city, making it a much more inclusive ecosystem. And yeah, I'm just all around the world spreading the good gospel of what inclusive innovation ecosystems look like. And so yeah, just again catch me on Twitter. Shoot me a DM, you know, give me a ring. I love, I love building. I love building and reporting and driving new narratives about, you know, us as innovators, because we've always been innovators. So and the folks that folks that are on Twitter charelle Dorsey dot com, right? Yes, yes, yes.