 Good day and welcome back to another episode of the 4D Autie Podcast with your host, Mr Thomas Henley of course. Today I've got a bit of a different episode for you and I just want to put a very heavy trigger warning at the start of this. We're going to be talking about a lot of the very dark stuff of life, dark stuff of mental health. We're talking about autism and suicide, which is obviously going to be an episode where we sort of dive into our own personal experiences with it. So if you do feel that you're not in a state that you will be able to be okay with listening to this, I would highly advise checking out one of the other episodes that I have on the podcast. But I really think that due to the nature of the statistics around autism, suicide, and mental health, I think it's a really important episode to at least talk about that kind of stuff for the people who may need it, or at least to give some awareness to the mainstream around these very worrying statistics in the autistic community. So before we get into introducing our guest, I do want to cover one of the more recent studies that was published by Autistica, which is a UK-based autism organization. And they have some pretty up-to-date stats as far as I can find. It was one that was done in 2017. I'm sure there's some that have been done a bit later, but I do have personal links with Autistica and I know that they produce some quite high quality stuff. So this Autistica study found that almost eight in 10 autistic people have a diagnosed mental health condition, which is quite astonishing. That can be anything from anxiety to depression to all the other kind of things that that would cover. There's also quite a worrying statistic around thinking about suicide, about six in 10 people. So it's more than half. It's more likely that autistic people would consider suicide. There's also a very concerning statistic around three in 10 autistic people. Autistic adults have attempted suicide. There are some statistics around sort of more younger life childhood experiences, but I don't think it's something that I want to go into much because I know even for me, you know, it's something that I talk about and it's something that I've experienced. But even for me, it was quite hard to read some of the stats around that. So now we set a bit of a basis to why we are doing this podcast and a little bit of a disclaimer. I went to give a bit of a background to my guest, Hina, who I met during a conference doing like a public speaking event in Birmingham. It's called the EDA Conference and it was funded by the Commonwealth Games. It was an opportunity for a lot of autistic individuals to come and speak and deliver presentations and talk to different policy makers to try and make some systemic change in the way that we deal with emotional regulation, mental health, things of that nature. So it was a really, really great event. And Hina came up to me noticing from me from Instagram, which was one of the first times that that's happened. So I was very buzzed about it. I was like, hey, this is, you know, people are recognising me outside of Instagram. And we got a picture. We had a call more recently chatting about possibly making this episode. And here we are. So Hina, how are you doing? I'm doing very well. Thank you, Thomas. I'm excited to be on the podcast. Yeah, yeah. Well, then would you like to give a little bit of a background into, you know, when you were diagnosed and I suppose how you sort of got involved in the autistic community and what kind of stuff that you do on a daily? Yeah, so my name's Hina. I'm 25 and I work as a community engagement officer on a daily basis. So finding out, well, discovering that I was autistic, I didn't actually figure it out by myself. It was my younger sister because she's a speech and language therapist. And she said to me one day, yeah, she said to me, she was like, I think you might be autistic. And I was like, really, like, do you actually think that? And she was like, yeah. And when she told me about it, I was like, Oh, actually, a lot of that makes sense to me. And I can relate to many of the things that it all comes to me about. So a lot of the behavioural traits and sensory processing things that I just thought was like typical and everyone else experienced. Yeah. And you just like, you just like, just for some reason can't tolerate it for something that's like a personality trait. Like, that's what I thought. I was like, maybe I'm just weak, maybe I just like, can't handle these emotions and these sensory experiences as much as other people. That's literally what I used to think because I used to just cry out of nowhere. And my dad blessed me and be like, why are you crying? And I'd say, I don't know, I'm just crying. And I don't know why. And he said, well, if you don't know why, you can stop. And I was like, I can't. But there was a reason I think it was just like feeling sensory overload and just super overwhelmed really with life. And that yeah, and then my sister, she motivated me to go to the doctors, which was very hesitant to do, because as you know, it's not an easy process. Yeah, it's quite a lot of stigma attached to it as well. That I finally got the courage to do it. And I went and ever since I've actually been on the waiting list and referred by my doctor for nearly two years now, I think. So yeah, it's a long process. Yeah, it's a long process. But another thing is I went to a suicide prevention conference as part of work that was held at the University of Wolverhampton. And I met a colleague that I work with now called David Stocks. And he is a suicide prevention need in the community. And he does a lot of work based around autism, because he's also recently been diagnosed around like a year ago as autistic. And he's in his fifties. So he does a lot of work with the autistic community. And we're working on an autism and suicide prevention project in work. That's really exciting. That's amazing. What kind of I don't know how much you're allowed to divulge, but what would that kind of entail? Like, is it more of like a, like a document thing? Or is it like education for like different authorities or organizations? Or is it more like a like an internal program to support individuals? I would say it's a very creative project. So the main focus is going to be involving people with lived experience of autism, and designing the project and also taking part in it. So the main thing that we're going to do is we're going to use cameras to take pictures and to reflect emotions that autistic people feel and just things that people feel attracted to. Like, yeah, I relate to that. And then afterwards, we will also be writing some poetry or short sentences or words to reflect the images. And then the end goal is to have four exhibitions separately. So four of the boroughs in the West Midlands. So that should be exciting. Yeah. And then everyone can see it and be like, oh, look at this cool project. Thank you. That's really cool. It actually brings brings me brings to mind like one individual that I had to pre chat with. We still haven't got around sorting out sort of doing the podcast, but they do. They're called SUSE Fine Arts. And they communicate online mostly through like self portraiture. And they do something like quite similar to that, like around very, very cool quirky person. But they do those self portraits. And they have like, it's based on everyday life events that happen, everyday feelings that they experience. And they try and capture that with their own sort of self portraiture. So they might be quite a cool person to link up with. If you're doing that, that projects their neurodiverse themselves. So thank you. Yeah. Well, I know we've talked a little bit about the statistics around mental health, autism, and suicide. It's obviously like massive issue and the amount of coverage that it has in the mainstream media is just absolutely ridiculously low, considering how, you know, out there solid, the statistics have been over the over the course of 20 years is very much something that is happening and something that affects a lot of people who are autistic. So I suppose given those mental health statistics, if we were to talk mostly about mental health at the start, why do you think autistic people are more prone to these mental health conditions? Personally, I think the reason that autistic people are more prone to mental health conditions is due to a lack of diagnosis at a younger age. So waiting until you're adult to be diagnosed. Because then presenting with a lot of autistic traits can be confused for other illnesses or like other diagnosis. BPD, you know, bipolar, schizophrenia even. Exactly. And I don't know if it's because of like a lack of education or awareness in the mental health system itself. I don't know. But I definitely think that's a really big factor, especially then people becoming misdiagnosed as well. Because I was misdiagnosed as well. I've been misdiagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder. And I might it might be a part of me, you know, it might be part of the autism. But yeah, it is just like a component of there is a like a component of autism that's like quite obsessive. And I know that yeah, I know that there's my friend, Nick Ransom is like this guy works for the BBC. He is white with like, he worked with Chris Packamon that that documentary that you know, it's become quite popular. Yeah, he's quite he's quite in there in the mainstream media. And he does a lot of stuff around autism and things like that is really cool. But he struggles with like OCD and things like that. Particularly around like people and relationships for some reason is like what he terms like relationship OCD. It's a very like old podcast. It was in like season one, probably like episode 14. So that's quite a while ago. But super cool. Yeah. Why I think there is like some some crossovers with that. I would also say like, you know, from misdiagnosis and things like that, women and people of backgrounds that are not white, I think are more likely to be misdiagnosed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I need to be misdiagnosed and undiagnosed. I definitely agree with you. Being Asian myself, I'm no woman. I yeah, I agree. I think it's also because women are much better at masking or I don't know if they're better. They just feel like they should mask. I don't know because I definitely did mask a lot in my youth if I look back because I didn't know how I was supposed to act. I had no clue. So I used to just pick up on other people's behaviors and tone of voice and the way that they would interact so that I could fit in. And I actually think that is another part of like why autistic people are more prone to mental health conditions because we're like expected to fit into like this mold like everyone else. And I always like think of it and describe it as like being neurodivergent and a world that's like designed for neurotypicals. So it's really just, I don't know how we're supposed to be comfortable enough to be ourselves in a place that doesn't make us feel able to be. So yeah. And it's quite a protective thing, isn't it? Because there are situations particularly in secondary school or high school over in the US that present a lot of real world dangers or real world stressors like bullying. And if you kind of stick out and people notice that and people sort of take advantage of you, perhaps not understanding like the higher cognitive like social situations that are going on, then they do take advantage of you. So there is like that aspect of it, even in the workplace, I would say. I know for me, I didn't really used to mask very much, but I definitely used to have some like mirroring like behaviors. So I there'd been lots of situations when I was younger, and I was introduced to someone from like a different part of the UK, like Scotland. And I'd start just naturally mimicking their accent. And obviously, they were like, Oh, what's happening there? And the parents are like looking and asking, why is your child doing this? For me, it was a way of relating to that person, making them feel like they're safer to be around me. But I understand like looking back on it that it's not ideal. And to be honest, even within my podcast, if you kind of look back at the different guests that I have on, the way that I interact with people, the way that I speak, like the tonality of my voice, it tends to very much mimic the person that I'm talking to. And it's not like a natural process. It's not like I'm thinking, right, I need to do this and this, it's just kind of like a learnt thing. I don't know, it's interesting, isn't it? And masking, I think just in general can have some really bad effects on your identity as a person. It can feel very hard to feel like you're feeling like you're being genuine. It can take a really big toll on your overall energy, can really make you look more anxious and aware and paranoid in social situations. And something that I only really started to do when I was in my early 20s, I started to realise that the people around me, they were having much better time in terms of making friends, forming groups at university and also finding a partner. And those things were areas of my life that I wanted to work on quite a lot at that age. And it started to mimic and mask and copy people online who seem to have that life to them, to have that aspect of their personality to make those friends. But when I did, it always just felt very false and it didn't feel like I was connecting deeply with other people, which I think is another really big aspect of mental health, that social element. I agree with you completely. I definitely personally experienced this feeling of I didn't know who I was and I didn't know who I was supposed to be. So I used to constantly wonder what my identity was. And I think that identity is always evolving anyway, but there is definitely some parts of yourself that are more solid. And I just didn't know because I was constantly presenting as typical, I guess. Yeah, yeah, like passing, passing as neurotypical. Yeah. And I was really good at it. But now, and it was so tiring, it was so tiring. I used to be exhausted after the end of the day, like after school, in secondary school. And then also in the workplace as well, like you mentioned, I experienced a lot of stigma in the workplace, which made me feel really unsafe because the reasonable adjustments that were supposed to be put in place weren't put in place. Instead I was just, yeah, instead I was meant to just... And those are like bare bones as well anyway. Exactly. So I was really like worried and anxious and stressed every time I went to work, but I've been trying to educate the workplace on autism and neurodivergence so that they can be more understanding and accommodating that people's needs. Sure. Well, that's great. I'd say that another aspect of autism and mental health, I mean, just from the scientific perspective of how things like depression develop, like a lot of it tends to occur due to either long-term chronic pain or long-term emotional pain, which kind of in-builds this sort of catastrophizing, doom-in-gloom sort of attitude to life, or at least it had for me. And this is all based around this idea of the HPA axis, which is... Oh, what's that called? There's a Petuity Gland, which is the P. There's Adrenal Gland, which is the A. And then there's the H, which is the hyperfamilis, hyperfalamus. And there's this weird sort of feedback mechanism with all of these kind of things. And when you are chronically anxious for a long period of time, it can kind of have these different physical changes in your brain, which can make you more prone to developing things like depression and having that anxiety for a longer period of time. So that's kind of like the scientific sort of idea of it. And if you think about the lives of autistic people, you know, we're constantly bombarded with sensory social stresses, a lot of negative life situations, particularly for women, I would say, around being sort of manipulated or abused in different ways. And so it kind of makes sense to me why we tend to develop these quite severe mental health conditions, even at a young age. I think there's another aspect of life that seems to be quite important to touch on, which is the overall life quality statistics that we might have as autistic people. We tend to find it very hard to find a job, a long-term job, a long-term job and feeling happy within that job and, you know, feeling safe. There's also the aspect of isolation, which is very, very apparent, even going up to individuals who, you know, in their 50s, 60s, 70s, who haven't really had the supports that we might have had growing up on that level of acceptance and adjustments in place, even though it's not perfect. Up until, you know, even nowadays, things like social media, the online spaces, general support after school, that sort of transition to adulthood is, you know, there's so many aspects to someone's life quality that prevents us from fully being included and happy socially and in society, which, you know, it can't be undermined just how much that can affect people's mental health, you know. You hear about a lot, but this concept called atomization, which seems to be going on, which is like the splitting off of social groups where, you know, a lot of people are kind of in their own house, in their own space, but a lot of their friends are all over the place, you know, they might be into like online gaming or be very into social media, so all of their friends are like dotted around the country or the world. And so there's not that immediate sort of social structure that can support them, which can be an issue, I think. I agree with you. And I actually have a lot of friends who are dotted around the world. So like, yeah, it's insane, but they're like some of the best people that I've known and some of the best people in my life through online gaming and online platforms and interacting. I find also unlike posts, for example, that I follow on Instagram surrounding like autism, ADHD, neurodivergence and mental health. I usually comment on the posts if I feel like I relate to it. And then I feel like you can meet people that way too, and just, you know, common ground. Yeah, the good thing about I suppose the good thing about the online spaces is that you can find a lot of autistic people. Whereas if you go outside and you try and meet new people, it's very hard to find them sometimes. I agree. It's not like it's not like you have a big autism sign above your head. I'm autistic, be friends with me. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because I tend to very much attract and make friends with a lot of neurodivergent people, just not even by going to seek them out. Me too. It just seems to happen. And also, I definitely feel like I connect better with other neurodivergent people and communicating with them is so much easier than communicating with neurotypicals. Yeah. And I suppose it doesn't necessarily have to be like autistic or ADHD individuals that you meet. I think it's just someone who has experienced a different side of life kind of gives them that perspective to understand or want to understand other people's different sides of life. Like if I'm just thinking of individuals, you know, there's I don't think there's anybody that I know that doesn't have something different about them in some way. Indeed. I agree. But that's what makes us so special because everyone's different and everyone's unique and it's wonderful. Oh, I also, I do think as well, communicating with other neurodiverse people is easier because maybe we've created like our own understanding of neurodiverse social cues that make sense to us. I don't know, perhaps. I definitely think I have my own way of communicating and I'm very like before I would be very much stressed about trying to fit into a certain model of communicating and socializing. Whereas nowadays, I'm very much like, you know, I'm just going to communicate as I do. And if it feels a bit weird for you, then cool, let's not be friends. Yeah, I agree. I agree with you. That's I suppose that's one of the, you know, it can be one of the hard bits about like unmasking is because although you are becoming your more authentic self and you are displaying yourself to the world, then you're feeling more authentic and in how you do that. It does also present issues when it comes to fitting in and it can sometimes make it harder to find people to be friends with. And it can also, if you've massed for a long time and you have that those kind of social groups and you start to unmask, then it can sometimes lead to you losing friends or, you know, people making weird comments like, you're more autistic nowadays or, you know, why are you leaning so much into the label and things like that? Yeah, really frustrates me. It's, well, the people that were more authentic around are those who make us feel like we can be because they're comfortable and we feel safe with them. So if we are masking, it's generally because we don't feel like we can be our authentic self with people that, yeah. Definitely. Well, we talked a little bit about the sort of prevalence of mental health and why it may happen for a lot of autistic people. The result also different cross sections between groups and different aspects of an autistic life that can make, you know, mental health conditions more apparent, you know, just from looking at things like even the coping mechanisms around addiction, alcohol and different various use of drugs, it's very, it's very prevalent for autistic people. And, you know, I am at some point going to be sort of diving into an episode where I can talk more in depth on things like alexifamia. I suppose like one of the key aspects of doing this podcast is to get a bit more sort of personal on things because it's all well and good to kind of postulate like the theories behind it. But I know for a lot of people, it can be really hard to find or it was particularly hard for me to find resources and people talking about subjects that are quite hard to hear and subjects that they do hit quite personally. But it was definitely something that I wanted to find when I was in the peak of my mental health conditions. So I guess what are your experiences with mental health and, you know, suicidal ideation? I will give my experiences as well, but please go ahead. Okay, cool. So my experiences, I think I've been from quite a young age. When I was in secondary school, I experienced a lot of suicidal thoughts and suicidal ideation. And I think it was generally because life just felt like a lot and way too much for me to handle. And I just wanted a way out, like an easy way out. And I know suicide is not easy, but it feels like it would be easier than just staying trapped in society in the world that's making you feel like crap. And I think another thing that fed into my thoughts and feelings was some of my childhood, personal childhood experiences, which I won't go into. But I think that definitely played a part as well. And from the age of 16, I remember, was when I first entered mental health services and mental health support. So that was through CAMHS. Me too. Yeah, you know about CAMHS. I think it's Child and Adult Mental Health Services. I think that's what the acronym stands for. I think that sounds right. Thank you. I did well. Yeah, so that's where first got support. But it wasn't like for depression or anxiety specifically, although I was struggling heavily with that. It was for obsessive compulsive disorder, which I think developed as a result of coexisting mental illness, but was also a component of autism. So it was all related and I didn't have a clue because I couldn't regulate my emotions and my feelings. And I was just trying my best to stay alive. And in a way, the OCD kept me alive, if that even makes sense, because it gave me a way of like, I don't know, like the rituals and things that kind of focused you in. Yeah. So I was like, if I do this, then I won't feel like this. So if I do that, then this won't happen. But if I think about it, like, if you think about it objectively, it's not like, it's not going to happen like that. It doesn't work like that. But it makes you feel I think a lot of it is to do with for me was to do with a lack of control and having these like rituals and thoughts and things that I used to do really helped me to just put all that into perspective and feel like I was in control of something. If I was in control of my mind or like my emotions, I was in control of everything in my external environment. But although it did help, it kind of destroyed my life as well. It took it over a lot. Because I used to spend like a very long time in the shower because the OCD that I had was contamination OCD. Right, right. It was quite debilitating. That must have been really, I don't know if it's something that you experienced, but that must have been really hard to solve during COVID and things like that. Was that an issue? It was hard, but it wasn't as difficult because thankfully the front of that was during my youth, I think during my late secondary school years and college years. So during college, I remember this is another thing because when you're autistic, you like things to go to plan. But things didn't go to plan. So I went to college and it took me about an hour and a bit to get there and the same amount of time back. But because I had to complete all my rituals and shower and do all these things before I left the house, I would end up being like an hour or two late to college because I wasn't able to feel in control of things before I left, if that makes sense. It was a very stressful time. Well, I know that my personal experiences with mental health services like CAMHS was, you know, I appreciated that that kind of service was there. But it wasn't, I don't know if it is probably a combination of the two, but I wasn't entirely willing to sort of engage with the process. And a lot of the things that were suggested to me more along came the lines of these like set things and processes to go through when I'm feeling a certain emotion. So I would get lots of different sheets methods and ways to deal with anxiety and panic and meltdowns. But a lot of those ways that those sort of mechanisms for dealing with my mental health tended to be require you to first know that you are feeling a certain way. And during my teenage hood around that sort of 13, 14 age where I got diagnosed with depression and anxiety, I didn't I was like deep into my alexofymic haze. Like I just didn't know what was going on at all. I felt so separated from my emotional brain that I felt like it was a different person, like I had this kind of split in my brain. And so it was really hard to manage mental health because of that. And I also found it really difficult to connect with the people that I was speaking to and to, you know, really emphasise the severity of the emotions that I felt around my indirect communication. I was very, very flat affect when I was younger. I hardly had any facial expressions. I didn't have a lot of vocal tonality at all. I was very monotone. And it didn't really help me in terms of, I guess, emphasising the level of, you know, depression that I was feeling at that time, which was was very sort of intense. I had a lot of experiences growing up around sort of bullying, online harassment, social isolation, rumours, things like that, which really fed into my anxiety. I was very paranoid about every stage of my day, whether it was getting on the bus. I had some bullies on there, whether it was during lunchtime, had some bullies there, during classes, in some classes even. And a lot of the time was from me was spent trying to avoid those situations, avoid those people. But I just couldn't. And over time, I developed these mental health conditions. The most prevalent ones at the time, other than that quite severe anxiety and depression was dissociation, which I now know is one of the brain's defence mechanisms to sort of shield you from feeling emotional distress and pain in the instant. A lot of depersonalisation, which is not feeling like you are real. A lot of realization, feeling like life isn't real. And they developed a lot of weird ways of coping and understanding my own differences in comparison to other people. I developed some like heavy delusions about me being some otherworldly creature with a greater purpose. And you know, feeling like I was this kind of Einstein who, you know, I looked at other people, other kids sort of acting in the way that they did, but being very emotional, being very like driven instantaneously to things. And I was like, kind of looking at them like I was living in a zoo. And the only places I really felt safe and heard was when I was talking to adults, who I felt kind of gave me the space to talk and were interested in what I was saying. And, you know, for other time, the reason why Kams picked me up was because the people around me started to notice that I had some quite severe self-harming behaviour on my wrists. I used to go to school wearing like a really long, cheap bandage. I used to wear that cheap bandage even when I was swimming. And I used to, I was kind of going through like a very heavy emo phase around that time. So I wore a lot of wristbands if I wasn't wearing that bandage to kind of cover them up. And, you know, it generally got worse over time, up until probably the age of 17. I tried to take my life a couple of times, first through medication and the second time through cutting. And I had to go to ER to get stitches. And I had a lot of sort of supports around me in terms of sort of monitoring my medication, making sure that I didn't have access to methods to do that. A lot of the time it was, you know, it was after school. I even sort of got to a point where I, my self-esteem was just so crushed by my experiences that I started developing things like bulimia. And I became bulimic and I started to binge and purge because I just wasn't happy with how I looked who I was. I tried to offset my social difficulties by having a good body, which obviously didn't work. But there was a lot of things, I think, you know, on the way which, you know, the combination of my environment, how I was feeling about myself and also the supports not really being effective for me, all of those things sort of culminated in a very, very existential nihilistic view of the world, which followed me even into my early 20s. There was a point at which I start, you know, lots of points where I started to change things around. I was, you know, focused on getting to university and I got into the place I wanted to get in, doing biomedical sciences at Manchester, which was a really big achievement for me. And I also climbed quite highly in terms of Taekwondo, in terms of being an athlete, I competed for GB at a couple of events and I kind of leaned on that as a way for me to sort of build my own self-esteem up. But as you know, you know, receiving awards and receiving congratulations and attention for that kind of thing, it's very limited and it's like long-term effectiveness for dealing with that. It has to be a lot, you know, looking back, it's obviously very internal, but just having these goals in my mind really kept me going sort of during those times. Sorry, I had to just monologue for like ages, didn't I? Jesus. No, it's good. It's all about personal experience. So yeah, you've said about depersonalisation. I experienced that for the first time actually, around two years ago, which was around the time that I, that was my second time being suicidal and attempting suicide. So my first suicide attempt was also an overdose of my antidepressants. It didn't work. And that must have been like hard, like so much. I mean, I've accidentally taken like a double dose of my antidepressants before and it was so anxiety-provoking. It was horrendous. I remember like I was literally just crying and I felt like in a massive haze. I didn't understand what was going on. And then yeah, I think I told my mom and I was like, don't shout at me or get mad at me, but this is what I did. And I was crying and she was like, what? And then I just went to hospital and then everything was okay because I didn't take enough to like damage anything or like kill myself. So I was still there. And I'm happy I'm still here and I'm still there. But then about like two years ago, I became increasingly unwell. And I actually went off of my antidepressants during COVID, which was probably not an ideal time, but I felt okay. I felt fine. And I said to my doctor, I'd really like to get off them. I feel like I will be okay. So I went off them, but then the pressures of my personal life and university and COVID all just merged together into this big like massive brick wall that just fell on top of me. And I tried and I tried to just like cope. I guess that I wasn't coping. And what really hit it all off me was going back to study face to face at university, because I studied at Leeds Beckett University, which was like a good three hours away from where I live. So yeah. And I remember saying, I don't want to go, I'd rather just finish it at home. Because I knew in my gut I shouldn't go, but everyone kept saying to me and it was out of their best interest that, you know, be good for you, you should do it. It's your last year. You'll have a good time. And I was like, neurotypical advice. I didn't listen to myself and I shouldn't. And then I took everyone's advice. I moved back to uni and by two months later in October, I was done. I was already like, really depressed, really ill when I was just crying or got even worse. I was like, really anxious and increasingly suicidal. Like I would have probably ended my life if I stayed there. So I remember coming home in like November for the last time before I didn't go back after that. And my grandma also passed away at the time. Just a lot of things get many things and there was a lot of grief. And then I felt bad because I was unwell during the time that everyone was meant to be grieving. So I felt like a complete burden because of that as well. And that's, that's a really sort of key part of it, isn't it? Because when you, when you have mental health conditions, it's, you know, it's obvious it's an illness and it does, you know, it's not just a mental psychological thing. It changes the chemistry of your brain and even to some degree, like the physicality of it over the long term. And it's, it's hard when you're feeling so bad and you're looking at other people's lives where there's things, you know, objectively horrible, negative things that are happening to other people. And then you kind of look at yourself and you're like, why am I feeling so bad about where I am now? Like I've got so many good things going for me. There's no reason that I should feel like this. And you give yourself a really hard time about it as well, don't you? Definitely agree. I tend to put a lot of pressure on, on ourselves. I definitely do, not feeling like I'm good enough. I always had a, like, innate feeling that I was never good enough and I'll never be good enough. And lots of self doubt as well. So I struggle a lot with that. And my dissertation, for example, I couldn't complete it and I completed everything else from my final year. So I couldn't graduate with my honours. And then through my positive recovery from an eating disorder and mental illness and general suicidal thoughts and feelings, I managed to complete it, which is really good, which means I can now graduate with my honours. And it was like, I had to carry on as a continuing student for a year more, but I'll be graduating this year and I'm happy. But yeah, thank you. I do remember them before, because I went into a hospital, a mental health hospital. Like a psychiatric, psychiatric inpatient thing. Sort of, yeah, yeah, for mentally unstable people. But luckily, I wasn't admitted. So I went in there, but I was like assessed and I was there for like a whole day. And then I remember just saying, I don't want to be here. I'm not going to be here. I'm not staying here. And I was like, I want to go home. And they deemed me unfit to go home. But because I had so much familial support around me, they let me go home. Good. Good. Because I don't think I would have been okay. So I'm just looking back at the EDA event. Like there's so many people talking about just horrific experiences that they had in psychiatric inpatient, even with, I think you might have seen Lauren Bridge's story. Yeah. Like she's talking about, wait, have we got the right name? I'm just checking. No problem. Now, Lauren Bridge's story about being in inpatient units, her mother, Lindsay Bridges, was talking about that sort of experience and like they went to like courts and stuff. And they had to, even though they got approved that this hospital wasn't fit for her, they still wouldn't let her out. And there was no like accountability around it and stuff. And I think there's like a cystic of about like 2,000 people, 2,000 autistic people being sort of in inpatient units in the UK, which is really concerning. It is. Yeah. Very disheartening as well. Those conditions are not like, are not good for autistic people. And I think for the entirety that Lauren was at that hospital, they didn't have any therapy, any supports or anything like that. It was just lock them up and give them food and try and keep them safe. But they didn't even do that job, which is the sort of tragic part of it. It really is. It's heartbreaking because you put into a place that's meant to keep you safe and secure and look after you. But if you really think about it, putting an autistic person in a place where they're not even supposed to be in the first place and not letting them leave or see their family, it's going to drive them to basically the end of like where they could be. So, yeah, I'm very glad that I didn't have to stay in hospital. But yeah, I did have like nurses come out to me, the mental health nurses, and I went to all my doctor's appointments and dietician and stuff like that because I was literally skin and bones. I'm already petite as I am, but I lost a lot of weight and I've just managed to regain weight again, which I'm very happy about. Thank you. I was, I was feeling quite down about it, but I couldn't make myself eat. I don't even know. I was on 40 Jews for like a month and then like a long time afterwards. It's like a supplement of like nutrients and stuff. So those have 46 as well. So it like replenishes your body with things that you're not getting because you're not eating food. Yeah. And because I was in such a bad state, I remember saying to my, my parents, well, if I don't eat, then that means I don't have to take my medication and that means I no longer have to be here. I don't have to be alive anymore. And then like that's a really horrible thing to say, but it's just how I was feeling. So I think a lot, a lot, a lot of my experiences, particularly in early adulthood where it was kind of along those lines of like, I, I wasn't, I was trying very hard not to like do something that would just end it. But at the same time, I wasn't taking care of myself in that with the purpose of, you know, achieving something like that. Like I would, you know, go to sleep each night, you know, hoping that I didn't wake up. And I would start doing very silly, stupid things like crossing roads without looking, a lot of different things like that to, to somewhat, you know, contribute to me not having a long life, which, you know, obviously it's, it's not something that, that was effective or wanted or good. There was one situation which was kind of my resurgence of my mental health in my second year at university. It's actually the time that I met my best friend, Kate, who's really integral for me, you know, finding a support network and finding friends at university. She was also going through her own, you know, mental health stuff. And we, I actually, it was a situation, I was living with someone that I lived in first year with. And I was kind of, I was kind of getting to the point where this person was very, they were kind of tired of me. Like they cared about me, but they were tired of me. And it was, you know, I was in a situation where I hadn't gone outside for a couple of months other than to get very unhealthy snacks and food from like the local shop. I basically became like a hermit for like a portion of my life becoming very paranoid, very depressed, you know, having about five or six panic attacks a day, even though I wasn't outside or doing anything, binging, purging a lot. It was, it was, it was kind of a time that it culminated. And before then, before I went to university and so I reached the age of 18, I was very against things like alcohol. But during those times, I was sort of drinking quite a lot in that in that second year. I used to like sit on my couch in the living room, so drinking alcohol and watching Rick and Molly, which was kind of like the first, because one of the first times that it came out, I can't remember how long that was again, it was a while. But I got, yeah, it was, it was great. And Bojack Horseman. And those were kind of my, the two shows that really struck a chord with me because I was, I always have been a noise, you know, and I still am very existential in how I view life. And I had lots of different existential crises where I didn't think anything was real. It was like that, philosophy who kind of sat by and watched the world go and not really cared about himself and just, you know, thought that everything was an illusion. I was like that for a good few months. And it got to a point in which I drastically came off my medication when if it's kind of a strange thing, because it's not something that you can really put your finger on when you stop medication as like a, it's more like a gradual buildup of mental health. I think one of the reasons why I stopped is because, you know, being on SSRIs, you kind of, SSRIs work by dampening your emotions. They don't raise your overall happiness. They don't like make the dips less, like flatten out the dips and make you more positive. It flattens it out from both sides. And I just missed feeling happy and positive about things. And when I came off, when I have come off the medications, I had more instances where I could feel, you know, generally more like myself, generally more happy, more positive and experienced those, those highs of life. But I also experienced a lot of the lows and equal measures and probably even more so, which led me to a point where I got into crisis mode. I was taking, I was on a medication of Benzodiazepines called diazepam. How can I moan? This is great for anxiety, but I was on a very heavy regimen for that. And so I had a lot of tablets and there was this point where I didn't feel safe. And it was kind of this culminating thing. And I'm not going to lie, you know, I was scared about dying. I was scared about that, but I was also, you know, at such a crisis point that I felt that it was less scary than sort of continuing to go on with life. And so I drank a lot. I took a lot of these tablets and I sort of continued to do that over the course of a few hours. I got to a point where I was like, Hey, look, I'm not in a good state. And so I took this self-trip. I started walking around with my alcohol. I think there were beta blockers, actually. Propanolol. And I started walking around taking these, these medications and drinking. And I went to one of these crisis homes. And that was my, that was my goal to like admit me to this crisis home. But this place was not open. And so I continued walking around and going into the parks and just crying and getting upset and continuing down this rabbit hole. And eventually I got home because I'd had all of the medication that I had. And I went to get another one. And thankfully, you know, I talked to my friend Kate about it beforehand, that I was not feeling in the best way and that I was feeling quite suicidal. And she was worried about me and I wasn't replying to her. So she called like the the flat services, like the student accommodation services to come and check on me. It was at a point where it was kind of, you know, if I, if I had continued in that, that state, I don't know what would happen. I can't imagine that it would have been good. And they took me to hospital. It was a very long night. I didn't sleep the entire night. I was there with these white fluorescent lights and doctors trying to like hold me down to get like a blood, blood sample to make sure I was okay. And I remember sort of getting out in the morning probably about seven or eight AM. And they gave me like a heavy dose of, of a natural benzo to sort of smooth out my anxiety from the nights. And that was the experience. And I was very annoyed at my friend Kate for a long time. I was very like, you know, I could have done it then. And I was, you know, I was sort of a bit, a bit like, you know, you taught this from me. And, you know, I nearly did it. And it was something that, you know, I'd been thinking about for over 10 or 11 years. And this was kind of the, the breaking point. I was like, look, I'm not going to go any longer. And, and she stopped me. So I had to sort of process that in my own time, obviously, looking back on things. I mean, I mean, eternally grateful to her. And I did have resurgences of mental health. But I think the, the turning point for everything was when my, my granddad passed, who was very close to, he died of lung cancer. It was a very long process. And it happened when I was abroad in Thailand, studying mosquitoes and doing research on them. And I couldn't go back to see him. And I thought about that a lot. And, you know, I kind of said to myself at that point that I wouldn't try again. And I didn't. And I had very much in my head all the time that I was, you know, ever since that, that point where I was in second year at uni in that, in that situation. You know, that, that was kind of a turning point for me. And I realized that, you know, although, you know, my pain wasn't alleviated, and it wasn't going to go anywhere anytime soon. It was, I guess, eliminating to me that all of these experiences after, after the fact were, you know, I wouldn't have known about it. I would never have experienced it. And I've never have gone to Thailand and had all these crazy experiences. And I think just over time, refocusing myself on trying to support others who are going through the same thing was something that really meant a lot to me. And it's kind of pulled me through a lot of difficult times that I still have with life. It's not, it's not like it's gone away. It's just, you know, over time, my mindset has changed on it. And the way that I manage it is a lot better than what it used to be. That was, that was my second experience with it. I haven't thankfully had any more like that. I'm glad to hear that you haven't had any more. Yeah, it sounds like it was a very difficult time to go through. I mean, it is, but I think, you know, looking back on it, people always think of these moments have been like, you know, in my head, it was kind of this movie, movie-like moment where, you know, life had got too hard for this autistic man and everything was going to end. And when it didn't happen like that, I kind of, you know, looked at myself and I was like, what the hell am I doing? And, you know, it's not going to go like that. I'm not going to make like headlines and people are going to talk about how awful this is and it's going to change the world or anything. I actually have to do things to make a difference rather than just do that. And that was quite illuminating for me. That makes sense. Well, do you have anything else to add about your own experience? It's fine if not. I know that again, I've just monologued for ages at you. No, it's fine. Don't worry. It's all about talking about your own experience. So, you know, and you're not just monologuing at me. It's everyone who's going to listen as well. Yep. Sorry, everybody. Oh, that was like what I meant. Okay. So, you know, I know what you mean. Hey, Up. Just popping on to say thank you for listening to this podcast this far. If you could do me a real solid, please make sure to rate the podcast if you're in a podcasting streaming service and do all that like, subscribe, comment stuff on YouTube. Don't even send a heart in the comments if you don't feel like typing. Make sure to check out my link tree, which is always down below in the description or head over to my Instagram page at Thomas Henley UK for daily blogs, podcast updates, and weekly lives. This podcast is sponsored by my favourite noise-canceling, noise-reducing earbuds that you can adjust the volume on. Really, really great thing. They're called D-Buds and you can find the affiliate link down in the description of this podcast. Anyway, I hope you enjoy the rest of the podcast. That's all from me. Yeah, I think for me, I'd just say support is important. Having good support around you. And I think that's what's definitely helped me and kept me going. Suppose we talked about like the negative side of things, but, you know, if we kind of shift away from sort of our personal experiences that might be, you know, I suppose it'll be good to talk about the positive experiences with mental health. Have you experienced any of those? If you can think of people or services or things that have been the most transformative for you, what would those be? I definitely think my dad. My dad's always been a really awesome person in my life and I just love him so much. He's just always cared for me unconditionally and loved me. Parents are so important. I really feel for people who don't have that. It's so hard. And he never made me feel bad about anything. So, for example, when I was having ridiculous amounts of showers and like making the bathroom really steamy and stuff and I don't know, just loads of silly things. My dad wasn't concerned about that. He was more concerned about me and about my health and my mental well-being and emotional well-being rather than the water bill. Yeah, exactly. He wasn't concerned about the water bill and I'm telling you, I used to shower. This is crazy. I know that it was where my mind was, apparently it was going to make me feel better. I used to shower multiple times a day for ages, for like an hour each time. I spent most of my life in the shower. So, yeah, it was a stressful time and it was so bad. But I'm really glad because now I'm doing much better with that and many other things as well. Yeah, so definitely, I think having people who can support you and look after you and with you unconditionally is really important. And my siblings have helped me a lot. I love my siblings so much. They all look after me still and take care of me in the very accepting and open with my autism as well and some other members of my family are neurodivergent too, so it just makes it easier. And my cats as well. My cats have been an amazing support and my cat angel actually was one of the reasons why I didn't kill myself about two years ago. So, yeah, pets are really, really, really important. They're just so special because she was really depressed when I was depressed and when I was leaving for uni and coming back and she actually got like cystitis and she actually had depression because I wasn't there because I was ill. So, she's much better now because I'm better and she helped me get better and I helped her get better. It kind of, animals kind of help you view things from a bit more of like a realistic standpoint. When you're like off in your head about issues that you're having, animals are kind of there just living in the moment just like, there for you, there's no judgment. They always listen. I don't know if they understand, but they always listen and they always feel your emotions so they take care of you. I think for me in terms of things that have made a positive impact, I would definitely say my family, particularly my mum was amazing. They didn't really understand much of it when I was younger, but when I got into my early 20s, I started to be a bit more clear about it. I came out about myself harming. I came out about my depression, my issues with alcohol and so I started to become a lot more, my family were amazing for supporting me through these times when I couldn't function and when I couldn't do stuff like make myself food or keep on top of hygiene or get myself on track with things. Kat's just chilling over there. She's like, hi guys. But you know, I haven't really had the best experience with the mental health system and I wish I could say that, hey look, this is the path to take because I just don't think that the mental health systems are good for autistic people at the moment at least. I'm sure there are some great ones out there, but there were none that I could really find in my area, none that I could really find that were part of the general healthcare that we have in the UK. So I was in and out of these situations and obviously having a lot of medication, which I suppose is another thing that helped me a lot, something that a lot of people these days like to push aside and say, oh everyone's getting medicated and things like that, but it really did save my life for a lot of the time and the times when I wasn't on these medications, the times that I really struggled and had these these experiences. So it's those things and also I think for me personally growing and learning more about autism was definitely a really big life changing thing for me, things like alexifimia, finally understanding why I just couldn't connect with my emotions and trying to find ways to get around that and notice when my mental health was getting bad, that was such a massive thing for me. Talking to and listening to other people within the autistic community was really helpful for me as well. And there's been people throughout my life who have been advocates and supporters and you know really have my best intentions at heart and help me where it was at university. There's this amazing student support officer that I used to go to when I was not feeling good in my workplace, you know, I have someone who was originally a work coach for me who's now my friend and she really supports and advocates for me in different situations at work. So I guess like, you know, the most important people for me outside of family were just people, like people who were open-minded, wanted to listen and cared about me and I could feel that. That was the most, those are the most important things for me in terms of mental health but also finding a meaning and I guess understanding more about where I wanted to be in life and who I wanted to be and aligning that more with possibilities like, you know, I'm not going to become this completely different person but I can become like a better version of myself and having a meaning for me of wanting to help people, wanting to share my message I think has been the biggest sort of driver for me even through situations where I'm feeling very depressed. And it's not always easy and sometimes I do need to let people know to keep an eye on me but overall it's, it has been getting easy to manage as I've got older. That's a good thing. Yeah. A really good thing. One thing that I want to ask is, you know, because things like suicide carries a lot of stigma behind it and you even have a lot of people kind of shaming people who have committed suicide or think about suicide as being weak or not caring about the people around them. Those are just a few obviously but what are kind of the common misconceptions of stigma that you've heard around suicide? I definitely think being weak, that's a really huge one because actually I don't think, it's not a weak thing to go through with it at all. No, nobody who's experienced that will say that other people are weak. It's not an easy, easy thing to do with in life. It's the opposite. Not at all. And another thing is from personal experience and I think hearing other people's stories and research and stuff, the reason why people decide or choose to end their life by suicide or attempt to do that is because they are trying to bring away from something but it's not an external thing. It's internal and they simply cannot get away from it. So the feelings are very strong and the only way that you can think of getting away from it is probably sleep, but you can't sleep forever because you have to wake back up. Yeah, that's another thing that I used to do a lot. Me too, just get away from it. Stay asleep. Yeah, sleeping in. Yeah, not dealing with the world today. Actually when you're depressed, that's why you can either become like an insomniac because you're too stressed and thinking that you can't sleep or you just sleep forever but I've done both. But I do think the darkness of your thoughts just can't become a bit too much. Yeah, and it just feels like a natural and easy option and route to take. You just won't have to deal with any of the world's stuff again. And to be fair, where you're going, we don't know the problem. But I don't know. Whatever is surely can't be worse than this is what it feels like. But yeah, that's what I think. I think there's a big stigma around suicide being selfish, that it's something that people are like, oh, you're going to affect the people around you. It is true, like people are going to have to mourn you and grieve and it's not an easy thing for a social network to anyone that knows you to deal with or hear about. But there is also an aspect that it's not very easily put into words that most people could understand. But a lot of people who choose to do, who choose to take their life, it's not something that is often like a selfish thing. For a lot of people, they can feel like they're a burden, especially if it's a long-term mental health condition. And they feel like they're actually, just by being there, they are reducing the mood, depressing other people around them that they're causing issues for people around them and that they are the problem in a certain family system or a certain social network. And so they feel that it's genuinely something that will help other people around them and that it's a good thing and that them being there is a bad thing. And it's not easily, I guess, relatable to a lot of people. But when you are in the midst of that really severe period where you are contemplating that a lot, it is very apparent. You don't care about yourself at all and you feel very much like, things would be better if you weren't there. It's hard for people to understand. Yeah, I agree with you. And in a way, it sort of feels like you're doing everyone else a favour by not being there. So yeah, I totally understand that and agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. And another thing I think is people, maybe like sometimes people might be driven towards suicide because unlike us, we do have some good support systems in place, people who don't have support systems in place, maybe more likely to go towards that route, which is a shame. I think as well, if you're not diagnosed autistic as well, I think that's a massive part of the puzzle. It is. I saw this crazy statistic on how many people in the UK could be undiagnosed, like autistic supply in the hundreds of thousands kind of range, which is absolutely mad. You see so many like, there's this TikTok that I'm going to sort of critique and put out a bit later because it's just absurd. It's like this lady going off about how everyone's getting diagnosed, autistic these days and that they're faking it. And, you know, they're trying to get attention and find this, this, this cool hip identity for them. My God, like, they just really just don't understand. Just because of like the stigmas around autism, they feel like it's something just so out of the box to assume. But it's, it's, I think it's true, you know, I don't think it's just from my personal experiences. I, you know, I see a lot more than 2% of the population in my daily life, which I sometimes go out and I think, oh, that person, I feel like they could be autistic. You get the spectrum going off. And they might not even know it either. So and at one point you didn't know it. Yeah, yeah. It's really, really, yeah, it's got to be wet on that. I mean, there's, there's so many like stigmas from mental health and from autism, you have that like, that Andrew Tate guy going around saying that depression doesn't, isn't real and that, and other conspiracy theorists saying that medication is a way to keep you depressed so you can, you know, you got all this stuff online and all of these people giving their faults on something that they've never experienced, just sparring absolute nonsense. And it can be really hard to live in a world that kind of pretty much negates or tries to dismiss your experiences of life as something that's a personality trait, something that, you know, you're an anxious person, you're a negative person. And because you're an anxious and negative person, you have anxiety and depression. It's not like that. The most positive, the most like loving and perfect and strong people I know, they've been through mental health conditions, really severe ones or really hard life experiences and develop those conditions from it. Like, it's not something that's, that there's a personality trait. Anyone can be, can become depressed. It just, you know, for some people, it's a lot more common, especially for autistic people. I agree with you 100%. I do think as well with depression, it has a lot to do with like trauma and like unresolved trauma. So healing, getting a child and trauma related things. I think it's very beneficial. Yeah. PTSD and CPTSD is quite common for autistic people as well. Everything is more common for us. I know. We're just, you know, we're magnets for everything. But I don't think that's because of us being autistic. I think it's our experiences. It's a neurotypical world, as you said, you know. Because personally, I go to therapy weekly and private therapy again because the mental health system doesn't provide great mental health support. Thank you. But it's so beneficial for me because I've learned so much from it about myself and healing myself. And I've become my more authentic autistic self as well since I've been in this therapy. So I'm happy. Brilliant. Thank you. Well, I suppose the last question that I wanted to cover before we try and wrap things up. So we've identified this big mental health crisis in the autistic community. We know that suicidality is very high for us along with lots of different other things and life quality statistics that really make it hard to live as an autistic person. How do you think we can better address and support others in the autistic community who have these experiences? I definitely think recognizing that autism isn't a deficit would be a really good thing because for me, as soon as I disclose to somebody that I'm autistic, their perception of me changes completely. And it makes me sad and it sometimes makes me wonder whether I should tell people at all that I'm happy and I'm proud to be autistic because it is who I am. And I think along with that, once you tell someone comes infantilization, so people will just automatically start treating you like a kid, like a little child. You're not a child, you're a fully grown adult who's aware of everything and you know you're autistic. If anything, we're just more in touch with our inner child and it's cool, it's fun. We're not appalled to those social norms that keep us from acting in a certain way. Exactly. I just do things because I want to do them. For example, my special interests are dinosaurs, so everything to do with Jurassic Park, thank you, and Jurassic World. And usually that's just associated with children or young boys, for example. And I'm an adult female who's 25 and I still love dinosaurs and Jurassic and I love dressing up in different cosplay and also Batman as well. I'm completely obsessed with Batman and Gotham. But sometimes people can see it as like childish. Is that childish? I think it's pretty cool. But yeah, I definitely think infantilization is one of the worst things that I experience still when I have experienced because autistic people are actually super, super smart. And I'm not saying that because I'm autistic and I'm smart. You're smart. Lovers of autistic, I think it's actually proven, isn't it? Like autistic people actually have really high IQs. Average or above average IQ. So if anything, we're less childlike, we're so smart. I literally did my dissertation in four days. Like that's insane. I can't believe that. Well, it's weird, isn't it? Because when we're younger, we get classified as like little professors. Yeah. And we talk to like adults and stuff. But when we get to adulthood, we get characterized as like this immature childish character, like. It's so weird. It's odd indeed. It's like two ends of the extreme. Where's the middle? Is there a middle? I don't think there is. But instead of acceptance for how we are, people just like, I don't know, always make us feel weird. Because you feel able to break out of the social norms and social barriers that people enforce for no reason, that makes you a child. Whereas, if you talk to a lot of neurotypicals, there'll be a lot of things that they really enjoy, that they've been like, oh, well, I've grown out a bit and things like that. And I'm like, have you grown out of it? Or are you just trying to conform? Because people might think it's a bit strange that you like to like Pokemon or like, you know. It's nothing to be ashamed of. You should be proud of your interests and your likes and your dislikes. You know, everyone's different. Yeah, I think it's important to just acceptance. Acceptance, like if people could just be more accepting, it would be fantastic. I think as far as things that I would, you know, I think could be better addressed within the autistic community or just in the widespread mainstream, I think there really needs to be a distinction between low quality of life and being autistic. Because a lot of people in their heads, they immediately think with any disability that by having that disability, you're going to have a low quality of life. And it's kind of part and part of the same thing. You know, you're disabled, of course, you're going to have a low quality of life. And I think we really need to try and make that distinction a bit more clear, because I'm not fully convinced that being autistic makes you have a bad life. I know a lot of people who have had really great lives and they haven't had all this trauma, they're autistic, they do great. They're amazing. They have social networks, they have friends that, you know, they have a relationship, they're in a workplace that they enjoy, they go travel in. They do all of these amazing things. But again, it's like, it's the environment. We're not in a place in society where education, the workplace, the media is an inclusive space. And that people understand us. And I think, I think that's a really, really important key point. I think also, you know, I think there is a, there is a barrier to talking about these really important things, being that social media isn't always, like, always the most happy to, you know, encourage dialogue about things that are not positive, you know, some things you had to talk about, you know, like, for example, with this podcast, I'm not going to be able to make any reels out of it, because I know that it's just not going to work. Social media is not going to push them out. It's not going to be a message that a lot of people hear. It's just part and part because, you know, social media is not designed for that. And we're all kind of kept safe within this algorithm so that we can't hear about this stuff kept safe. Like a bubble. Like a bubble, yeah. It's, I mean, it's not like it's gonna, it would be removed, but it's definitely not going to be promoted. And it's, you know, even with this podcast episode, I imagine that, you know, just part and part the, the naming of it. It's not going to get out to a lot of people, which is the unfortunate side of it. I think as well, we need to do a lot of work specifically around men. I think there is a very heavy tendency for guys to adopt this kind of very strong mindset of I'm not emotional. I am strong. I can deal with everything. Mental health doesn't exist. I'm just being weak. I think that that mindset for a lot of men is quite prevalent. And I'd really like to challenge that, I think, because I don't think being open and vulnerable is a, is a level of weakness. But I do think experiencing negative things about life and trying to find ways to phrase it or hide it is a sign of weakness. I think that that mindset really needs to change a lot, because just being open and just being or acknowledging certain feelings, certain experiences, you know, that is a strength in its own. And it requires a lot of strength of moral character and, you know, strength and you know, to, to share that stuff. I don't think that it's, it's a negative thing. Sure, there'll be toxic people around you, perhaps, you know, and there have been in my life who sort of ridicule you and, and, you know, say that you're, you're feminine or you too emotionally open. And they sort of make fun of you. I've had a few guys like that in my life. But, you know, the majority of them, I think, a lot of them, a lot of men, they do want to talk about this stuff. But it's, you know, it's because of the, the current social climate, I think it's becoming a lot harder. And male suicide is a real big issue, even outside of the autistic community. And I wish that's something that could be changed. But I think that requires a lot of work, a lot of shifting the narrative and the frameworks that we have. I agree with you. A thousand percent. It's one of the things that I'm actually very passionate about as well. Because I understand that men are more likely to end their life by suicide, which is really, really sad. It's the leading cause of male death in young to middle age. The leading cause. So horrible. And it's like, it's that toxic, masculinity sort of thing, isn't it? Well, like, like you said, I think it's strength, like I think it's strength to show that you have emotions and you're feeling them. And if you don't feel good, you're going to talk about it or you're going to do whatever you can. That's a healthy way to feel better. But like you said, I don't think it's good to bottle it or do other things to compensate for, like, feeling bad emotions. Because if you think about it, feeling not so good emotions isn't a bad thing. Because if you weren't able to feel them, then you wouldn't feel the good ones, would you? So it balances it out. You'd be a psychopath. Like men are not supposed to be psychopaths. That's not what we're trying to reach for. Exactly. You don't have to be emotionless. Feeling emotion. Feeling emotion is not a feminine thing. It's a human thing. Everyone feels emotions. Even the most masculine men, they feel very strong emotions towards their kids and their family. And like, you know, it's not something that has to be characterized as a weak thing, just because you're acknowledging that you have emotions. And when people think about this, they always think about, oh, you think about all those men who get upset and start crying and going on about their experiences. Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be like that. It could be as simple as just telling someone that you're not doing great, or telling someone about your experience with something like we have been doing. It doesn't necessarily have to be this over-the-top emotional experience. It could just be acknowledging things and talking and trying to process how you're feeling. I think there's a really big roadblock there, but I'd really highlight that as something else. There is also another aspect of that. And just from my personal experience and talking to other men, it doesn't necessarily have to be something that is caused by other men. I think in my life, a lot of people have, even a lot of women have assumed that I'm okay because I'm six-free and strong and I do all of this stuff. And so there's no possibility that I would need any support or emotional supportive issues that I have. And that's been a constant for me, I think. To be honest, from my experiences, I've had more validating comments and validating responses from other men in my time. I don't know whether that's just because of my physicality or the way that I am, but it's definitely an experience that I've had a lot in my life. I've always tried to support people and tried to help them through their own emotions and experiences. But a lot of the time, when I turn the spotlight to myself and ask for support or tell people about my experiences, it's often very much pushed aside when I've done that. I don't know what that says, but I thought it was just worth mentioning because I do think that it's not necessarily something that's always pushed by men. I think it's a general societal thing. And when you see someone like myself who, as I said, quite externally, quite masculine, I think a lot of people can make assumptions that I'll be a certain way or that I can't feel emotions, which has been very unfortunate for me in a number of circumstances. So that's all that I wanted to mention. Was there anything else that you think that would be good to address before we try and wrap things up? I just think ableism in general. Yeah, it's such a big, like, thing that, yeah, there's just ableist attitudes just embedded in society and its systems. So, you know, we've just got to try as much as we can to not eradicate because we won't be able to, but to lessen the effects of it on people. Like you said, promote the positives of people with disabilities because people with disabilities are not less fun. We are awesome. We're fantastic. And we have lots to offer, lots of creativity as well, which is really cool. And yeah, the final thing I'd say is it's hard to unmask and it's hard to feel authentic in our world. But it feels fantastic. So, you know, if you can, if you feel comfortable enough to do it, and if you can't do it around everyone, just whoever you can unmask around or with, you know, do it with them and family and friends that are important to you because they're so important. But yeah, that's all I have to say. Great that you highlighted the unmasking part. It's, I think you are definitely right with that. It can put a big roadblock in all areas of your life when you do that. And also knowing when and where to do it and when it's safe to do it as well. Because I think it's all good in saying like unmask everywhere and do all of these things. But you know, that's assuming that your environment's always going to be totally 100% positive and respectful, which is not the case in a lot of circumstances. No, unfortunately. Well, we'll hopefully change that in the sort of coming years. Hopefully neurodiversity will kick off and we'll start getting a bit more mainstream attention and start improving things a bit more, making life easier for autistic people. Yeah, so it's coming to the point in the podcast where I would usually do song of the day. Do you have your song of the day? Or do you want some time to think about it? Can I have some time? Yeah, you can. Let me look at my Spotify. What have I been listening to? I definitely do have songs because all I do is keep my head frozen. Me too. As fun as talking about negative horrible things. To be honest, it's a bit weird. Because of being a lexopharmic, I can talk about things that are really depressing and horrible very easily without it affecting my mental state in the moment. I think my experience that too, because I've talked about it with smiles or sharing it, but it's not because I'm happy about it. It's just, you know what I mean. Yeah, you feel a little bit detached emotionally from the emotions for me tend to come after or a few days after when I reflect on it. I'm in a situation where I'm feeling quite sad anyway and I kind of think about it again. It feels worse. That happens to me because I remember I had to send my letters from the hospital for evidence for mitigations from a dissertation. I was taking pictures of them and I was reading them and trying not to read them and I was like, I'm fine. A few days later, I was not fine. I was completely depressed and I was like, what the hell? It's because I'd read everything that had happened during that time and it's traumatic. But it is what it is and I stayed depressed for a few days and then I went to, there's a play school of the Sanctuary Cafe in Wolverhampton and I go there quite often. If I'm not feeling good, you just get to talk to someone and just sit and chill and have coffee. It's nice. I need more of those around the country. Definitely. I've got my song of the day because I went to Dermot Kennedy concert. Yeah, my song of the day is Homeward by Dermot Kennedy. And why have you picked this song? I picked this song because Thursday last week, I actually went to see Dermot Kennedy live in Birmingham in the, I think it was, oh for NEC. And I just thought it was such a beautiful song because it just highlights how you're not alone and someone is there for you and can be and will be there for you and you can also do that to someone else. So Homeward, Homeward, Homeward, Wait, Homeward, is that how you spell Homeward? Yeah, I don't even know, we're like, it was an actual like word until Homeward. It looks like Homeward. Homeward. And that is true. It is a lovely song. So that will be added to the song of the day playlist. I should really, I should really turn it around and call it Song of the Week because it's a weekly podcast. I don't know why I've called it Song of the Day. Maybe because it's it's a song on the day of the podcast. What if you called it Song of the Day of the Week of the Podcast? I'm joking. That's so long. That's what I'm twisting. Yeah. So that is always as usual down in the description. You might have scrolled down to the bottom to check it out. There's about 23 songs so far of different guests that I've had on sharing their own songs that have some meaning to the topic of the podcast or some so deeper meaning to themselves or something that they just like, all their own personal music. So if you want to go check that out, that is the bottom of the description on YouTube and bottom description and pretty much anywhere else. You can check that out. So yeah, Hina, do you want to, do you have any links that you want to share or anything? You don't have to if you don't want to, but... I don't know if I have any links. I just follow like a lot of pages on Instagram. I can't remember them all off the top of my hand, but obviously one of them is yours because it was like YouTube one of my favorite pages. I think Autistic Column as well. Auti now, Neurodivergent Loom, but I follow loads of Autism ones. So Autism Support Community, I don't know, they're all just like... I love Brian. Yeah, they're all related to Autism and I follow loads of pages to do mental health as well. Very cool. Awesome. Well, if you have enjoyed this episode, please make sure to like and comment if you're on YouTube. Even if it's just a heart, just to let me know that you got to this point. Or if you are on one of the other podcasting streaming services like Spotify, please make sure to give it a rate, preferably the five star variety. Let me know your thoughts and yeah, if you want to stay up to date with my work, the type of content that I do, I do daily blogs on Instagram. You can find that at Thomas Henley UK. You'll also be able to see podcast updates, reels, and also clips over on YouTube, which is the name of the podcast if you want to find it. So yeah, that's all I wanted to say today. Have you enjoyed your 40 Auti experience, Ina? I thoroughly enjoyed it. It's been fantastic and I'm so happy that I got to do this and to be on the podcast review and yeah, just for loads of people to listen to if they want to and just help me destroy those stigmas and yeah, it brought a good end. Yeah, like that. Well, I hope you have enjoyed this episode of the 40 Auti podcast and I will see you next week in another episode. See you later.