 Thank you all for coming and we are about to start day two of this training session organized by Globernance with kind support of this institution, Santomo Museum for which we are all grateful. We are late, obviously, so we'll try to run as quickly as possible. The focus of this session should be on the role of the states and on the standards of care that would be expected from business. So it's a very broadly focused theme. So what we would like to do is to first have a presentation by Mikhail Mansisi about the developments at the UN level that basically are setting a conceptual framework for this discussion. And then I will speak with Niego Garte about the perspectives from, let's say, a local level from this region. Basically looking at this through the eyes of a small and medium enterprises. What does it mean, actually, for entrepreneurs, for startups and for basically all of us? But before we get to that, allow me to do a short introduction of my perspectives on this issue and my perspectives on why we are having this discussion and why it is relevant to have this discussion equally in Geneva and in San Sebastian or Donostia. So actually the reason why we are having this discussion is very simple. It's the globalization. Forty-fifty years ago the business has been conducted in a very different way. Most of the business was conducted locally. There were a couple of big national companies that were let's say in close relationship with the state. But for most of us, for most of our ancestors, the generation before us, it was simply irrelevant what was and for their business, the businesses they worked in or that they have been managing. It was irrelevant what was happening in different countries simply because that was the way the economy operated. But in just one generation we have moved from this model to a very different model. And the challenge is how we can reconnect the business as it is being conducted right now with the values that we share and the values that have been basically naturally embedded in business 40 or 50 years ago, at least at the local level. So as I said, there will be two perspectives that we will try to connect. First is this let's say top-down perspective, this setting of a conceptual framework for business and human rights, which is done at the intergovernmental level and at the UN level. And secondly, the perspective and the second perspective is the perspective from below perspective of small and medium enterprises that are suddenly finding themselves challenged by this new situation. And I guess that's my introduction, I don't need to say more. So let me introduce Mikhail Mansisidor who's the independent expert with UN, but until very recently has been a director of a Basque branch of the UNESCO. He's the member of the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and if there's anything else you would like to add about your qualifications. Okay, so let's start with your presentation. Thank you very much. I have to apologize, I am recovering from a very serious flu. I have been passing through this week. I was not able to prepare a presentation as neat or as well done as you of course deserve, but I can assure that given the circumstances I did my best to be here in front of you. I'm still under the effects of the medication and the antibiotics and the paracetamol and so on, so I apologize for any failure I can commit. Thank you. I prepared, I have this very short presentation in three points. First, the presentation is about corporate sector activities and state obligations under human rights treaties. In general and in particular in the treaty I am expert on the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. This Covenant, there is a committee that I'm a member of this committee, the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. I want to present the short speech in three steps, in three parts. First, I want to explain or I want to present very shortly how the committee has dealing with the issue of corporate activities vis-à-vis the obligation of the content of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and we have a deal with this issue in many issues or by many means or many documents and we need to explain or we need to know which are those different documents, the difference between an open letter and a statement and general comment or a concluding observation. We have present general comments and statements and concluding observations regarding issues of corporate activities and we need to understand the difference between those documents. Then we will have enough information to focus directly with the question, are we talking about just declaration, about just resolution, recommendation or are we talking about real existing binding international law? What are the differences between the obligation by these states and the obligation if any of other actors and then last point with particular issues very important in our case, in the case of the International Covenant on Economic, and Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. Okay, the comment here on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights is the body of 18 independent experts that monitor implementation of the International Covenant by its states party now as you probably well know the Covenant was signed in 1966 and entered in power in 1976 and now there are 163 states that are party of this Covenant, of course including Spain and all of the European countries. The states had the obligation to present periodically report regarding its fulfillment of its obligation, this is the report system, it's a five-year the state present its report before or from the committee and we analyze the report and we finish this dialogue with the state with the publication of a document named concluding observation. So this concluding observation are made by for each country, one document named concluding observation for each period for each country. Here you have for example the concluding observation for Spain 2012. There have been many many not many but several concluding observation in which we have included content regarding this issue of corporate sector activities. I remember last year for example Norway and Belgium probably more but I remember clearly the cases of Norway and Belgium last year. But we don't only publish documents regarding or focusing the particular situation of the states or particular states, we also publish general documents. From less to more importance open letter and statement our open letter are very circumstantial position on whatever that important for the for the committee. For example the position of the committee in the international day of I don't know the fight against the AIDS for example. In that case the committee publish an open letter underlining the importance of the fight or the fighting against AIDS and the human rights and etc etc. More important more grounded more than are the statement and the more the most important document are the general comment that is the official position of the committee is the authoritative interpretation by the committee of the obligation is ruined in the in the in the covenant. Well we have not a general comment at the moment on the issue of corporate sector activities but we do have a statement about this this issue is yes this is this one you have here in the picture statement on the obligation of state parties regarding the corporate sector on economic social and cultural rights as you can see just in the title we are talking about the state obligation the obligation of the states party regarding the corporate activity but we are not dealing directly here with the obligation of the corporate sector of the firms of the enterprises or whatever. I have said that that we have not general comment any general comment we are working in a general comment on this particular issue probably it will be published next year it will be approved next year but we are working on it now. So I have said that we have not still general comment regarding this particular issue but we have a few general comments on other issues that that had a slight comment on the issue of corporate corporate activities. For example the general comment number 18 on the right to work it's clear that the right to work is a case in which the corporate sector activities is the sort of the highest importance it's obvious and even in this case in paragraph 52 we have to underline to stress the idea that I am going to read if you allow me to do it. While only states are parties to the Covenant and are thus ultimately accountable for a compliance with it all members of society have responsibilities regarding the realization of the right to work. So here is clearly the very clear the difference between the duty viewers of regarding the Covenant and the United Nations and the Committee, the duty viewers that are only the states and those having responsibilities that are other actors of course private sector. The state parties should provide an environment facilitation that is charged of this obligation. The state parties are responsible for the fulfillment of these responsibilities by the corporate sector or the private sector. Well particular issues that are very important for us and they are issues that we are working now when we are working for the next general comment on corporate sector activities. First is the relation the link the nexus between the state and the business. Do you know that more and more in the modern society there are very great situations where established this reasonable link between the property and the enterprise where is the real headquarters of an enterprise is not always so particularly or as obvious as the shareable. So this is a very important point for us and especially when related with the next point when related to the local or extraterritorial activities of this particular enterprise. Of course we said that the state is always responsible for every branch for every violation of those human rights in its own territory. But we have the question of the problem it's always responsible for the activities of their enterprise in abroad in other countries. The answer to this question is clearly yes the difficult question the difficult point here is to establish how could you could you create this link between the state obligation and the private activities. The first the first case we start to deal with these problems of extraterritorial activities of private enterprise and the possible negative effects that these activities could have in the enjoyment of economic social and cultural rights abroad was in the case of sovereign wealth funds and this was for us the first case because it was easier for us to establish this obvious link in this case between the enterprise even being formally juridically private but it was state owned so the link between the state and the state responsibility was pretty clear. We start several years ago with Norway and their sovereign wealth funds with a very important investment in Central America was the first case. But we have continued with this with this work and now we are asking for responsibilities to a state in which the the headquarters of any enterprise is in. The last last year I remember the case of Belgium and we ask very special or we demand for very special responsibilities of Belgium for extraterritorial activities of enterprise with its headquarters in in Brussels. This is activities of this enterprise in in fast Asia. I don't remember which country which was the country but what I can say with sure is that there was an enterprise Belgium enterprise with headquarters in in in Brussels and I have to say that even being a bit bold for our part to ask for responsibilities to the state vis-a-vis extraterritorial activities of their enterprises because we are not dealing with any our legal basis it's not any declaration any recommendation but united declaration any declaration any resolution any global compact any any political document our legal basis is the is the covenant it's a very classical document of international law it's a classical treaty and the state obligation is very clear where the the Vienna convention and so on. So we have to be very very clear about that but I have to say that the states have admitted the capacity of the committee for for demanding them about this this this issue which is for for us very very important and I am thinking I agree with you that this kind of activities been impossible 10 15 years ago and now are are possible the things are changing and we in the community are living this an experience or part of this of this change and we are now asking or demanding the stage for the responsibility for extraterritorial activities of of private companies we are dealing in the committee with the with economic social and cultural rights and for this and for this reason there are several sectors that are of that are of a special importance for us you have here water if we have a human right to water and sanitation water or housing or health or or food or job obviously or or even education and more and more are are service services or rights provided by many cases for for enterprise so are sectors of the special importance for for us what kind of tools do the the states have to to deal with this issue to control these activities obviously legislative issues but not only we are demanding the states even for the judicial decision for financial the tools for politics for a broad number of the different tools and finally remedies that is what we are talking about here what kind of remedies do the those affected have in case of violation of these human rights first the the most classical most evident is the domestic level remedies judicial domestic remedies second we demand the state for possibilities of demanding abroad in the example we have we have seen previously of these activities of the New York enterprise in Central America do the victims in Guatemala had any possibility to to demand in the domestic system in Norway we demand the state to to to have these possibilities of being demanded in their own system by foreigners and last one is international remedies that are very new but still are existing almost for a few countries probably you know that the all the demanded additional protocol on our covenant or my covenant on economic social and cultural rights right entering into force the last year not two years ago in May 2012 well one year around three years ago and that new protocol for the time being there are only 18 states being a party of this protocol included in Europe included including Spain Portugal Belgium and I don't know if I don't know I don't think anyone more but in any case Portugal Belgium and Spain is clear that there are party of this covenant for the first time in the history of the human rights system on the universal system of the human rights protection this additional protocol gives us the possibility of presenting individual communication before the an international body I guess the international committee on economic social and cultural rights we have received the time being just four cases and any of them has anything to to to to to to deal with this with this issue of corporate sector but in theory it's of course possible to present individual communication that are individual denounces for cases of of the violation of human rights because of corporate activities local or even for extraterritorial activities this is a very new and very important mechanism that we we don't know what kind of of of reality is going to to to bring to to us but it's an open door that in the next year we are going to to see how it it works so for my part this is a very short but I think that general and hopefully clear view of the situation of this particular problem of corporate sector activities and state obligation under human rights treaties with a with a view on our case in the committee of economic social and cultural rights and thank you very much and I'm open to your consideration thank you thank you Mikhail I think that the main takeaway here excuse me is that the covenant in the covenant we can see a clear distinction between the state duties to ensure protection of certain rights incorporate responsibilities where the state is responsible to make sure that corporations are actually acting in line with with the with the rights recognized in the in the covenant which is basically in line with with what's written in the United Nations guiding principles of course there will be probably some fringe areas where we can argue that that the international law may impose some direct responsibilities on corporations but the basic principle is is as you as you described it so the other point that I have noted is that in your work in the committee you are increasingly recognizing that the obligation of the of the state expands to the extraterritorial dimension and so we can expect that this development will continue it starts with the state on enterprises and as you gave the example of the sovereign wealth fund I assume in Norway but we can probably expect to see this see this going beyond state owned enterprises and the the last point that I have noted which I think is is relevant for our discussion in particular is that all of this is connected to the need of providing remedies at the local level at the domestic level but increasingly at the international level as well so this is probably what we can see in in the future now I don't want to yet open open open the floor for for discussion but if you have any questions for qualification from Mikhail now is the time otherwise we'll move to to the next block everything's clear is there anything you want to add I don't think that you need to but in case you would you disagree with anything that I just said no perhaps just to add that I am member also of the working group on individual communication so I am especially interested in having a chat with any of you about the possibilities of present and individual communication of this in a case with with these characteristics so let's move to the to the next part in this in this session to my left is Injego Ugarte who's having a very interesting carrier multi-pronged carrier being a consultant in let's say human resource management at the same time working working with a group of engineers in a startup company developing device to create artificial ways yeah it's called the garden wave garden it's fascinating yeah and very I would say um not typical because it's the first product of its kind in the world if I understand it correctly but it's I would say almost uh I have to say the English actually I'm not surprised it comes from from this area because this is known for for surfing yeah yeah that is more known in Australia or California and so on but here we have an engineer that that have that idea 10 years ago and start developing and what we enter there like investors like now they call business angels and we are seven years developing the product and now it's in the market and you get MBA as well you get the business education as well so the question that I have for you is how does all of this all of this discussion on business and human rights is becoming relevant for companies that you work with and for your own company how does business and human rights is entering the world of small and medium enterprises and how do they see it because I understand that for most of local businesses what we have just discussed with Micael is incomprehensible it's something what they don't really know what it what it is about okay so okay so let me explain I was asking to repeat so that you can repeat what you just said because from here at least the two of us we couldn't get the kind of services you are giving to the market it was incomprehensible so if you could speak to us okay and into the microphone that would be really great thank you so so so Inigo please introduce yourself again and then if you can continue as Philip says Philip says well I'm a psychologist with MBA and I start my job experience in consultancy related to human resources I travel a lot with bus country companies giving them services from the recruiting defining the procedures in the human resources there in different countries like China, Malaysia, Brazil and everything there's a lot of things on those human rights elements and that's for my first 10 years and seven years ago I started another career one on a career it's the same career but like an entrepreneur with different companies I invest we invest in different companies startup companies and we have a consultancy our own consultancy in headquarters here in San Sebastian and where we provide services like internationalization strategy and people recruiting and human resources and the other one is the business angels business that we invest in the startups to create the first step of that startup and one of them is Philip says that wave garden wave garden is a company that produce machines to produce artificial waves for surfing okay and is the product that that is unique in the world there's no product in the world like that that produce a dynamic wave for surfing okay if you say wave garden dot com and you you see that and then we have we have 26 engineers working without a different vision that Philip says and recording the question okay I answer the question okay okay I think that is a a changing of model in the business okay the globalization that says Philip is reality now and is becoming a factor of competitiveness in the world and locally too why 18 years ago when I started working the values were like discipline were responsibility were perseverance were willingness to change to go abroad in different conditions and so on and we start working on that values focusing in the business like the most important idea in the world we have to become a great leaders we have to become a great directors in order monthly to put a figure in the last line okay now the world change in very local businesses and in startups like we have the people are not coming to work with us for this is coming with to work with us for that minimum level balance to have in the world but in the work but they value other things like well the vitamins the different the development on the human capital the well at the end the things that the globalization show us in the different channels different channels and at the end is is like a model in like a behavior in in business okay okay uh for example I was talking with with Philip yesterday uh I saw how Basque country companies 10 years ago I go with uh Basque country companies in order to define all the human resources process there in China okay they have to buy uh millions of millions of pieces for the product and we were doing all the human resources process the recruiting the training programs and we were in charge of those engineers that goes to that to that place in China okay we do that job it was very pleasant for us because you travel in China with 25 26 years old and what you got you see the the the world but we visit a supplier in order to see how they work in that supplier and in the trip the general manager says this is the best supplier that we have we have the best price we have the best quality we have the best timing we have the shooter okay the pieces are very good but I'm not very uh I don't I don't know how they work so let's go to visit them and we were we were in that uh factory with thousands of employees but there were a place with 50 machines 50 machines yeah doing different procedures and well we realized that there was a lot of people there in that factory there were childs there were men women and so on and we asked for how do you work this place place like the doll of this 50 machines people sitting people lying people sleeping there in the what's this and the machine is working that oh no each machine it's run by a family unit okay 24 years a day 24 hours a day and the father the mother and the brother of the father of the mother is running a machine for 24 years hours a day we're coming like like this and we say okay the best price the best timing the best everything but we can't work in this field we can do this and there were a little bit controversy because the chinese start arguing that that oh but we are doing uh we are preserving the human rights because we give to these people the breakfast meal the dinner the bed education for the children and if you see from the other part okay well just have some well logic but in the otherwise you see that people there sleeping in the field well the chinese are well they sleep there and don't worry and all the a lot of people in the in the factory lying and everything they are they are not a very good condition for that and 10 years ago today as Philip mentioned the engineers that works in in wave garden they have that things in their minds because all of them are surfers and they travel around the world to catch the best wave and the best waves are in Australia in California but they are in Malaysia and in other places and they see those things they see the difference level of of of the people so when they come here and they start developing the products that we are doing in wave garden they have that mind they have that they can't do something like and they ask for okay where are our suppliers where are each supplier is and how they work for this we have now our philosophy is to have suppliers from here the 95% of our suppliers in wave garden are from from Giputqua okay but if we had a one supplier in a country for example we have clients that in Morocco some clients in Africa in Nigeria we are and we are very aware of how can we do the job there protecting all the all these conditions and we are a little bit well let's go to first to Austin or Dolgaro Gales or other places that we don't have any problems with those human rights or with those practices okay so at the end I think that is a changing of model that is becoming a factor of competitiveness there in the in our field in our consultancy too we are we we started four years ago with this consultancy now we are 11 people we invest in the people we invest in values and thus model changing is becoming is going to the companies because we work with a lot of several companies in human resources in strategy and internationalization and this different view is becoming a a change a factor of the competitiveness nowadays excellent so what you were saying is that first of all the small and medium enterprises are facing or are more and more exposed to human rights issues as their value chains are yeah becoming increasingly global such as is the case with the multinational companies and the the second thing that you have mentioned which I think is relevant is that taking care being let's say responsible in this in this area is becoming increasingly important for attracting talent yeah actually building a human capital in a in a in a in a in a company now the question that I have in this respect is what does it mean for the role of the state what we've heard from from Miguel that the international law is increasingly demanding the state to intervene in these matters especially in these complicated extraterritorial situations so from your perspective where would you see the greatest need for let's say the state to do something new something what it has not been doing well I am I'm a university teacher too and and well the people are coming with that those values inside when they come to the companies no they they ask for for those environments that consciousness of a sustainable world and everything okay there for me there is a triple vision here there is the business the society and the state the states have the responsibility to regulate all of this but if we don't do anything for society well and the society works now in this globalization with different channels of inputs of information I think that we are talking about human rights in the business there is an opportunity to to focus like the state in to ensure or to develop those values in the companies in the in the business in order to put in the society a vision of the different way to do the business because what we are hearing in Kiputkwa in the vast country that I don't know if it's the same in the rest of Europe but I well I think that is yes okay that the entrepreneur of the businessman is a man without any well the only thing that he wants money and and still the money and and to produce more and everything and we have that vision as interpreter entrepreneur when we when we are with with our friends and even if sometimes with the family there's a businessman you only want the last line of in red in in black and with a lot of meals there a lot of money there no so at the end the state have to support this change of vision of the companies giving them different values in corporate responsibility and so on and those values in from the business are going to enter in the society and if one society with more comprehensive values that goes to the business that creates richness and everything is a kind of loudening in in the state and the state have to focus in that society that have those values and at the end the state regulates those things it's very important that the in the international way like Michael says that regulates things that well if like yesterday we see that if indie text do something wrong in in brazil on everything spain have something to say spain have something to do on that yes we have to regulate all of this so for me is the state have the obligation to regulate and the other one to promote the different values in the business and society in order to to maintain a balance or sustainable sustainability in the in that in that field but now the people that goes to the companies have in their minds those things because of the globalization i mean and the people travel more and everything and they have all the channels to have those inputs even if sometimes it's like a film i mean the people that never goes to to deli or to bangalore or to to bejin or jinhua never saw never smelled that that thing now never feel and only see that in their smartphones and so on for them it's like a film okay another film okay this but at the end they have that change in their mind okay these things that is they're passing there in in the world so it's an opportunity for the state to focus on that values and regulate for the companies well i i i guess that uh there's a lot of you a lot of to do in area of education or an area of business education because you said uh if if drawn this vision of a greedy businessman or a businessman for for that case uh something what prevails in a society and i guess this is also linked to the education that people are receiving at business schools and i and i would say that it's probably an area for some state intervention next to being vocal uh in public about about about these matters and he also mentioned that uh all these things eventually need to be regulated i would say that for small and medium enterprises and for those who approach the issues with certain sense of responsibility uh this is essential for just ensuring a fair competition with some companies who don't do it uh mickel same question to you and i assume that you might want to say something about the the remedy aspect of the of the state duty of the of the of the state duties to ensure protection of of human rights you've mentioned this at a general level but if you have any more specific ideas in terms of where the states in europe and a and a and a spanish state in particle should focus its attention then it would be all very happy to hear that that's basically uh my question was what should be the role of the state now in addressing these these these these challenges and in particle what could state do to improve the remedy especially in these extraterrestrial situations if there's anything concrete coming out of out of your work of course the the question could have many false answer but i suppose that the most added value that you can provide here or the most original focus i can i can provide here additional to the technology all of you have about these issues is that idea that this about this very new a very important new remedy we have in international arena that is the new additional protocol of faculty protocol on the economic social and cultural right uh to talk about this protocol and the possibilities that it's open opens to the individual remedies or to the individual communication to the to the individual particular denouncers is very bold because it's very new and we have no experience we have not just a case presented about this issue so we have of course not a jurisprudence about that but the the possibility is it's it's open in cases of a human right violation for corporate activities local or abroad if this link with the state is proof of them and with you we have of course pass through the all the all the other possibilities in the local system as a sexually of course you can for the first time in the in the history of international law international law of human rights to to to present a communication to the committee and this is a very unknown possibility and the states prefer it to to to remain unknown that what is logical at that at that same point in in belgium is very very new because in belgium is part of this this protocol since five no less less than five months three four months and spain and portugal are members are parties to this protocol from the very beginning but still we have haven't any any warship to the judicial system or to the lawyers here in spain to explain them how are the possibilities of these new possibilities what are the new possibilities open to the to the victims and the first warship we are going to to to to organize in spain with with the school of diplomatica the madrid from college of house the madrid is going to be held in in two months so for for the delivery of us is very very new but it's a very interesting opportunity and i think that this is the the most original view that i can i can provide or give here and the and the the status are what these are responsibilities for the state the status of course are responsible for for for ratifying this protocol but in the general observation in pardon excuse me in the in the concluding observation we always call the states to to to to share to publish to make the concluding observation be be be known by the the people we ask the state to to to to to publish the the observation to inform about the the people about the the observation and it's always missing activity or it's a very very few states inform their their communities about the possibilities of of this kind of remedies and that's why i can i think that this kind of frauds are a good moment to to to to to make you aware of of this new possibilities do i understand correctly that there is a condition of exhaustion of local remedies i'm sorry to be able to send a communication to committee and to have committee to look into the case all possibilities at the domestic level must be used of course of course this is the general rule of international love of yeah excellent i just wanted to to to make it clear okay since we don't have too much time we can we can continue for too long i would like to turn the attention to the to the to the audience if you have questions or comments especially focus either on what my two colleagues have presented or if you have your own views in respect to the next steps or the expectations from the states uh now is the time Carlos please and Trisha right after it just for the serving we do our experience on corporate governance and improving the management of human rights impacts in businesses uh from our experience we consider the corporate governance is good is a the really effective way to improve the the to improve the due diligence management uh in the business and human rights well first because the interpretation of duty of care in the in the current principles is due diligence and some this concept has has been transferred to the national laws one example is in Spain that is is is is raising the the the legal liability of the board about a risk and the due diligence risk on environmental human rights anti-corruption and that kind of issues so there's a legal liability in in the national law and that's obviously put it under the the risk management of the board so the in the in the logical of the management in the companies they understand perfectly what's what that's mean and so uh putting attention on the potential issues or the risk on this area and obviously the the awareness is is basic in this in this point because much of the people working in business they don't know well maybe they know some cases that uh that uh in you go tall but they they don't know how manage that kind of situations in the best way to be effective in businesses and to be effective in respect human rights at once so the awareness and the capacity building in in this kind of new management issue is important but anyway from the states in my in my in our opinion it should be done a lot of things and could be very effective in regulation on corporate governance and liability of the board and on the on the impacts thank you Trisha please uh Patricia Feeney from rights and accountability and development I would based in the UK um I was interested with your presentation in you go uh that um I got the impression that when you visited or the company visited the suppliers in China the small producers who did it on time and at cost um I got the impression that they decided that they had to withdraw um which of course raises all you know that's the big issue are you doing less harm or more by staying and trying to improve conditions and and work I mean as a consumer you'd think well surely raising wages so that adults can support their families is one basic way of dealing with a supply chain problem uh another thing would be to give you know scholarships so that the kids go to school rather than sleep in the factory and work in the factory and um uh so was it that the company was too small to consider uh these kinds of alternatives to sort of just withdrawing livelihoods um I mean I think there's a lot of discussion I I work a lot on responsible supply chain management in conflict minerals and it's rather uneven and actually what we're finding even in uh the famous OECD and um even the the US Dodd Frank I mean what they're what you're getting is more like um uh a traceable certification for the product but no real in terms of the conflict minerals say no real improvements in workplace conditions so I just wondered if the company in your case had considered other options other than withdrawal okay this um that uh this was 10 years ago and uh the only thing that uh if we were there with other kind of people there perhaps the vision that they have is the opposite okay they are doing well because these people were in the well in other sector and uh well they don't have anything to eat and then they come here to do that okay um but that uh I mean the profile of the uh busk businessmen in the industry uh they most of them they have that vision of the human rights even if the other things are very good for the business no so we stop the business in that moment and we run away and we say don't worry we we we had an uh a meal with them we had everything that you know China how is China with the business no the meal and the karaoke and everything we stop there and we go out okay well let's go I was in charge of the human resources and the process and my business there was like uh or come with us okay uh okay that point and they start finding another supplier no more like mr Kodero says we don't know about the passengers to say how can we do it this uh well in this chinese company no the only thing that is that the that that man says I'm not going to work with this kind of of people and not even with the the vision with I think that the human rights uh yes in the in that brain in the in the vision of my product is uh doing wrong in not well conditions but I don't think 10 years ago that those human rights were were inside of that man this was uh decision of I can do see this when I come in here to do the quality process okay I can see this and and even if everything is right for my product I can't see this and they are telling me that they this uh uh a very good process or a very good situation for them I can't see this no so at the end it's a kind of feeling uh from each businessman in the field because well at the end uh like my colleagues yesterday corta we have a lot of things to be aware uh we don't to my my job is to sell my product to sell my service I have to be aware for a lot of loss uh when I see that something that for me is not good I make the decision I take the decision and let's go to other thing but I don't put a precedent to to say okay in that company there's not well conditions for those employees and so on so that's the situation that's the situation I think that today uh is easier to do that because uh when you go to a company uh if there are no restrictions to take the photos and so on that in china well sometimes there is uh you take the photos and that and you can't share with your with your net at the end anybody of that net goes to Mr. Cordero and says who can how can I do with this or who is the procedure and well we can do something but that's the thing do you want to respond it's about the first we know the the very important the key role of um corporate management in the enjoyment of um human rights and that's why the first idea that our statement the statement we we had talked about um previously uh the first idea that we um underlined is that um the it's a rich like like that corporate corporate sector in many instance uh contributes to the realization of the economic social and cultural rights right in the covenant this is the first idea we we want to to to start with not with the idea that all about the corporate sector and human rights is about uh danger or risk or or adverse effects or whatever the the the first idea is the the the role of the the companies or the role of the private sector also as as part of as being part of the realization of the enjoyment of of of human rights and for this uh proposed of of course the corporate management management is the key issue to to to read this like like that so we can um we can name and even blame the the enterprise even when we can't ask directly them or we can demand directly them um anything like we can name them and blame them but we can also and we we have to to do of course to recognize it the the role as human rights I don't know provider not but human rights supporters not but a part of a human right enjoyment okay we are cutting into our break because we started late so we should we should slowly wrap up um I may offer some reflections to these questions as uh as well that I want to give you one last opportunity if you have something pressing to say something you want to ask are we good okay so so let me let me let me offer offer some some some take a base for myself I think I think it's very relevant what Carlos said about the let's say definition of director's duties in uh corporate governance framework or in company law in terms of risk management and due diligence and linking basically these duties with uh with uh responsibility to respect human rights and I think it it uh it links to what Iniegar was saying about the role of the state to um basically send out the message that the human rights are relevant and so this may be one way how to do it and how to start building building the awareness of human rights issues in companies in companies through actually definition of the duties of of directors one of the things that we have we have not addressed in great detail but it for me at least it was apparent that it is something that deserves attention is actually the clarification of expectations for how companies should address some specific human rights issues especially in in value chain and as Trisha mentioned when there is a problem in the supply chain what should you do should you just go away should you try to try to uh improve the situation obviously if you are a startup and if you are looking for suppliers that kind of fits your business model then nobody can expect you to start bending a situation that you have not been part of in the in the in the first place but there are other situations and it's especially relevant for bigger companies so we obviously need some some more clarity in that we need more standards we need uh agreement within an industry and this needs to be somehow reflected in in legal regulations to ensure a level playing field so that's that's the way that we should we should we should we should take uh and then the last question that we have we have somehow discussed is the question of of uh remedies and there is clearly a development of us the recognition of extraterritorial let's say obligations on part of the on part of the part of the states and uh there is a growing expectations then even in the in these situations there should be a remedy provided and the mechanisms the new mechanisms by this facultative protocol that Michael mentioned is an interesting option at the international level where domestic remedies uh fail but obviously ideally they should not fail ideally they should work in a way that actually provide access to to judicial remedy so it's it's very general conclusions obviously in this in this limited time we didn't have opportunity to go into much detail but if there is a message that we can send to states uh my take would be these uh these these three and I hope I haven't offended anyone by making the conclusion so um I guess we can end the session and go outside enjoy the coffee and be back at 1115 for the next session thank you and thank you