 Welcome to the non profit show. We are so glad you're here with us today. We're also extremely honored to have Jeffrey Wilcox back. Jeffrey is the CEO at Third Sector Company, and he's here to talk about the state of the interim profession. So stay with us because, again, Jeffrey has a lot to cover in the short amount of time as well as an invitation for you coming up throughout this conversation. So again, to remind you who we are, if we haven't met you yet, Julia Patrick is here. She serves as the CEO for the American Nonprofit Academy, and I'm Jarrett Ransom, your nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven Group. And again, honored to be here, Julia, day in, day out to have these thought leader conversations with so many amazing experts in our sector. We also want to give our gratitude to our amazing presenting sponsors. They're the ones that keep us going. And so we're so very honored to have the support of Bloomerang American Nonprofit Academy, your part time controller, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. Many of these companies have been with us since March of 2020, helped us produce over 800 episodes, bringing in diversity and so many different perspectives into the conversation. So if you missed any of the episodes, guess what? You can find us on many different streaming platforms, podcasts, broadcasts, and the latest and greatest is you can download the app. So go ahead and plot your smart phone. Scan that QR. Thank you, Vanna White, who has joined us today, Julia Patrick, and scan that QR code. You know, I always like to say this, she's from my hometown of South Carolina, like not my town town, but she's home state, I should say. So Vanna White is from South Carolina. But yes, go ahead and scan the QR code and you can, in just a few hours after today's live conversation with Jeffrey, you'll get a notification that the recording is ready for your pleasure. So without further ado, Jeffrey, you've waited so patiently. I want to remind all of our viewers and listeners who you are again. So Jeffrey R. Wilcox, CFRE, CEO at Third Sector Company. Welcome back, my friend. It is, it's like coming home. Thank you, Jared. Thank you, Julia. Well, tell us a little bit, Jeffrey, start us off, you know, briefly tell us a little bit about the third sector and a little bit about yourself because you're going to talk to us about the state of the interim profession. And again, provide that invitation to all of our viewers and listeners today. Would you, would you let us know a little bit about yourself and the company? I'm happy to do that. Always difficult to talk about oneself, but I'm very proud of all the people who make up Third Sector Company. You know, I spent about 20 years with United Ways and three cities across this country. And I saw firsthand how executive transitions were costing charitable dollars, costing goodwill, costing community trust, because they weren't done well. And there was one thing I learned, Jared, about this work. There's one thing that no funder can write a check for, and that is human assets and human talent. It's the human capital that built our sector. And so I started Third Sector Company because it was great to raise money and distribute it. But my role was to help to cultivate the talent that was necessary for great people to do great things in this country. And Third Sector Company was born. Mission statement to help foster leadership continuity for organizations, congregations and associations. Well, you know, I think it's amazing that you're on the inside throughout your entire career. You get to see this ecosystem, and then you really lean in and do something that's quite innovative and very different. And so let's start out by going back a little bit and having you really clarify this concept of interim leadership and, dare I say, interim management. Tell us about that. I love how you worded the question because there is a huge difference between the individual who chooses to do interim management and the individual who chooses to provide an interim leadership. This is more than just a casual play on words. You know, Julia, for the longest time, interim management was kind of the substitute teacher watering the plants, bringing in the newspaper made sure the dog was fed. And I don't mean to belittle that, but the fact of the matter is it's left so much possibility on the table. And what interim leadership really does is it helps a group of ordinary people to figure out what they want to accomplish in an extraordinary way. And from that conversation, the new kind of leader will emerge. What interim leadership does is guarantees operational excellence, while operational excellence, while helping organization to move from what they want in the next leader to having consensus on what they need in their next leader, and I will tell you that goes across the gamut of organizations because they're also different because of people and purpose and location. But I will tell you, interim leadership is methodical, and it's transformational, and it's profound. And that's why I get up every morning so excited to have the job I have. Well, and it's strategic and that's what I love to share to and full transparency, you know, I started serving as an interim leader well before I met you Jeffrey, and then I took, you know, the third sector Academy course really got like so many additional tools in my toolbox. And I brag about the certificate all the time, really love it but I really do like to advocate to say just what you said, we're not coming substitute teachers, we're not coming in as babysitters we're coming in as change agents right, and then really in a strategic manner. And so I love that you really have just dedicated your career and your passion to this advocacy work so thank you for that. Well, thank you. You know, and what's been great is when you see the results of it from leadership, you have organizations that are feeling a sense of alignment, and I can guarantee you probably what brought the interim into the organization was a tremendous sense of not being. And it's that aligning process and walking away and knowing that you've left a group of people focused on finding higher ground in their service to others will give you a level of satisfaction that ideas they most careers cannot. Yeah, yeah. Will you talk about these 10 main interim leaderships in the sector, would you tell us what these 10 main interim relationships are. Yeah, you know, when we started in this business I think most, most folks it's going back 20 years yes I was six years old but it's going back 20 years and, and it was you know, pretty much a person voluntarily or voluntarily left their executive director position and there was an interim needed until a successor had been found. Okay, well that that was kind of the interim relationship, but we also found out that you know there are people who voluntarily left to our founders, and that kind of added a different to spend everything because it's like if they leave the whole organization lead. So let me answer your question directly what we discovered 21 years of doing this is this is not a one size fits all. And the good news is the public and private sectors have finally caught on to something we've known the nonprofit sector for I don't know about 400 years when when we invented this thing called the interim pastors in the in the religious communities. But now you open up the newspaper you see the interim university president you see that the interim, you know, Chief Executive Officer Starbucks. I mean, now the people who sit on boards are starting to go into their own workplaces and recognize that their businesses are being positively impacted by intrams and so can our nonprofits. That's led to a variety of relationships here's a few just to try on. Number one, we recommend that organizations who've never had an executive to have an interim first. The truth is that first time is probably going to be an interim while everybody tries to get used to having a first time meeting. So there's the first time. There's also the last time. There's an organization who has fulfilled its missions no longer viable. And so you need an interim who actually is experienced in in sunsetting a nonprofit. And that's, that's a very defined skill set. But wait, there's more. There's also the organizations today that are amalgamating and consolidating and are choosing an interim as their first merged situation. So people need to be experienced in mergers and acquisitions. I gotta tell you, we love seeing that in the sector but it requires a skill set that that we're going to bring people who've never worked together into community for the first time. A couple more. We didn't know this one. We got a letter from from the courts asking if we would provide an interim because a nonprofit had filed for bankruptcy. So today we have in terms who are actually considered expert witnesses in testimonials to courts, whether an organization can come out of bankruptcy or not, and to file a strategy with the court to, you know, be a chapter seven versus a chapter 11. And those who are actually interim COO's. Now, everybody on the screen knows there's a lot of execs who probably should learn to work with what we'll call a partner in the workplace but they have this inability to get a second in command, if you will. So we now have interim chief operating officers, which allows two execs to work together to test a position that really needs to be in place. And another one, the virtual interim, you know, today there can be a boys and girls club in rural South Dakota that definitely needs an interim executive, because those children, that's the only place they have in that small community. You know what they don't have any intrams in that small community. So we have another kind of relationship it's virtual and remote. One set in Phoenix with all of your expertise and help a small community in South Dakota, operate a boys and girls club so those children those young people have a place to go and you still in Arizona while you do it. The virtual and remote interim is the way of the future. And then the last one. I got to tell you as a purist, you don't like this, but you go with the marketplace everybody. It's called the temp to perm. There are some organizations who quite frankly, have not been good employers, and they keep scratching their head going, Why can't we keep anybody. Okay, so what we're encouraging to do interim if it works out that may be a permanent solution they should embrace because they just had a revolving door. There's your 10 look at the variety it's not a one size fits all. And I love that you mentioned that right that it's not a one size fits all and I can only take on so many interim and one given time but I love really educating people on these opportunities and looking at the possibilities of what that looks like. So, so thank you for these 10 thank you for sharing, you know the gamut of what that could simply look like. But let's go now into the demographics right like what's the demographics of perhaps these 10 different, you know, opportunities and relationships. What we're seeing when it comes to an interim leader. I read just by virtue of your interest in this profession and the personification of who you are. I'm just having you on the screen really speaks to the trend we're seeing in demographics towards interim leadership. And you know I applaud you I'm thrilled to work with you I'm thrilled to know you because you represent the kind of interim leader of today and tomorrow. In this business. The truth is, for most individuals the demographic was mid 60s or later. This was what was called at that time the encore career. Yeah. Okay, and that and that was actually the operative word interim leadership became on for career national organizations founded is a great way for retirees within their system to be redeployed to executive vacancies elsewhere in their system. So all of a sudden I've been the executive of an organization Cincinnati for years I got to go to Phoenix for three months of the winter. Nothing wrong with that. And so that was kind of the demographic. Now that's changing and thankfully so that it's more diverse. Number one, the average age is lowering because we have a better sense of a work life balance. Depending on an individual's personal state, interim executive leadership provides more of a work life balance than working 90 hours per week for a single not for profit organization, which for a lot of people is not only a job as a calling and thank goodness for that. But for a number of people, the work life balance is more what they are looking for. Another demographic that we're seeing to is people are coming from other sectors than just the nonprofit sector. This was usually just someone who had been a current nonprofit person. Now this is someone who's like been a volunteer for a long time they really want to do something in the nonprofit sector. They look at interim work, but we've still got some work to do, because interim leadership by nature is episodic. And we need to make sure that we are encouraging persons particularly persons of color and persons of lower income to be welcome into this profession. I think that's a full well of the economic needs that they have, but yet they're lived experiences and the questions they ask is the kind of leadership these organizations need to form a bridge between their past and their future. Jeffrey, let me ask you this question. Do you feel like an interim can come from like say the cultural, you know, sector of our nonprofit space, and then move into say animal welfare or domestic violence. Do you feel like these interims need to really be within a certain category, we always say there are nine main categories, you know, across the nonprofit sector. What are your thoughts on this. Oh, I have very strong thoughts about this organizations that are in transition will really benefit from a person who brings a different perspective. Their perspective is going to add to the richness of the conversation. And the other thing is their questions because they're not embedded within a particular industry are asking questions others may be afraid or embarrassed to ask, but they need to be asked. Interesting. So I'll give you a perfect example. We had someone who had been a career, early childhood development person that became an interim at a botanical center. It was the best thing they ever did. They couldn't identify a plant in their own garden. But the fact of the matter was, they went into this botanical center, and they asked all the right questions about activities and keeping people involved. Family versus individual activities, the botanical center flourished under this childcare this preschool early childhood education professional. But there is I mean, another dad joke as we talked about this in the greener matter. They've got the nursery as their baseline right like. Well, I have strong feelings to Jeffrey and they are in alignment with yours and that is definitely something that I do you know brag about as well is that seeing it from a different perspective, asking the questions that were not so baked in the jargon and the lexicon of the of that work. I really do think that you know during this time Julia, it does provide that opportunity for an even higher strategic movement right like really pulling back to say okay, why do we do it this way. Why do we call it that why you know why is this always been our process might we consider something else and so what Jeffrey had just shared is really you know I see it as an advantage. You know Julia we've proudly we have helped facilitate over 400 interim engagements in our in our careers. I want to go back to the very first one to illustrate your point. Our very first placement was was at a local community LGBTQ center. They were looking for obviously an interim executive director at a time, 20 years ago, when AIDS and coming out in the whole community had had not evolved as it has today. But here's the moral to the story. The edge of that was available was the immediate executive director of Planned Parenthood of Boise, Idaho and this individual happened to be straight. And never in the history of that organization did they ever consider having a straight executive director of an LGBTQ community. And you know what, they hired this individual as their interim. And through that process of everything they learned at Planned Parenthood in a fairly unusual community to provide that kind of leadership, they brought to that center and I can't tell you the accolades, the advancement, the models, the community building that straight person was able to provide to the LGBTQ center as an interim. And that was your first one you're saying that was our first one. Wow. And imagine all the stories for the other 399, because I know there's more in the works. That's right. That's magic. It makes me think about the concept that good leadership is good leadership and management is management. And really going into the weeds of what it is your product is, your services, you've got to come back up and look at what the procedures and the processes are to get you through to that next level that you want to achieve. And so understanding good leadership and management is where it's at. Before we let you go and we don't have that much more time, but I really want to talk about this conference that's coming up. It's such an interesting opportunity for the nonprofit sector to learn more about what's going on with interim. Share with us this concept. This is the first time you're putting this on? Yes. And you know, we use the we because it really is a national community of people. It's not third sector company is trying to be a catalyst. And so what what you're seeing here is the coming together of the first to the best of my knowledge standalone independent gathering of self identified interim leaders across the United States and Canada. And one of my my greatest memories when I first met Jared and she went through the Academy is one of the one of the joys of this job is to really understand and practice but I'll call it disruptive innovation. And it's to be a disruptive and or a disruptor. And, and that really resonated with you didn't Jared about. Yeah, to my core. Yeah, yeah. So what this conference is as we look at the profession through through three lenses around this idea of, you know, really being a little bit of a disruptor in an organization's evolution. And we use word disruptor here because it is begging questions that should be answered as people come together to accomplish something in community. That's where that comes from. It often requires a disruption because there's a lot of assumptions involved. So this conference Julia, on day one, we really talk about the state of the profession. You know where where has innovative disruption occurred. And what does that mean. On the second day we're going to look at just the practice, what's happened to interim leadership in terms of its disruption and its contributions to the sector. And then we look at to it as an individual organizational levels. And on the third day we look at it from the profession. I'm really excited about our key notar. Our key notar at the time of the tragic shooting on the Michigan State University campus. These those students were taken to a hospital that was under the care of an interim president and CEO and medical director. The world heard from an interim leader of a hospital, all eyes on him. At the time those students who were shot on campus were taken. The world was waiting to hear the condition of these students. He's going to be our keynote speaker to talk about being an interim with the entire world's eyes on you and your work. And I can't wait to hear Dr. Jenny Martin speak. I can't wait to hear the chills just speak of this and the power right of that position. Just fascinating. Yeah, I really speaks volumes you know to to the profession. So, does, but Jerry you're also on the docket, you're, you are one of the 40 people who are shaping this industry at the conference. I'm really excited. I'm really excited and I love you said you know there's 40, you know speakers 40 people really involved at telling their story, helping to shape the industry. I'm thrilled so on Friday I will be a panelist talking about branding your practice and getting the job. So I'm really looking forward to that. Ingrid is a panelist with me I cannot think of her last name at this time. Ingrid Chris from Lincoln, Nebraska. Perfect yeah so me from Arizona her from Nebraska talking about branding your practice as an interim and getting the job. So that's going to be on Friday Julia and I'm really excited to play play a small piece in this big summit. Jeffrey tell us where your summit or your conference is going to be held the dates July 26 to the 28. Where is it going to be and how can people learn about it. Can you can you attend virtually or is this all in person talk to us about that. Sure, it is a virtual online experience from start to finish, and it has been adjusted to accommodate all of the six time zones that will be participating from Honolulu all the way to the Atlantic provinces of Canada. Wow. And so yeah it's about four hours or such each day. We're also going to have a lot of affinity group discussions. And you simply need to go to the website name Jeffrey it's the national just go to the do the interim national summit as a search and it will give you all of the registration information you certainly can find it by going to www interim executives Academy, and that's one of our programs and you'll find it that website as well. Awesome. Awesome. So, you know, I love that you're doing this virtually because that means that, you know, over a three day period or excuse me two day period. There's a lot that people can jump in and jump out of and or fully commit to that section each day. Really exciting, really, really exciting. As we finish up. Do you think that this conference will be a catalyst for people that want to say okay this is how I want to move my, my career into becoming an interim, or do you think it's going to be more focused on organizations understanding why they need to embrace this concept. Is see all of the above fair here, you know, because this is, you know, Julia because this is the first time we're still as professions as professionals and as a profession. We're still working on our identity. You know, for some people were were a variation on consulting. Some of us don't like that analogy. Others are like, you know, I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing. I'm in an interim myself. I'm trying to figure out what I want to do in life. The statistic we know is is that only one in eight persons who actually studies interim work actually can find the place that it works best for them in their work to life balance on it is it is a romantic notion to work, you know, in another context for a little while, but the economic realities of that, and being able to be with and without work and having some downtime for a lot of people that's hard when it really gets into it so this conference will do three things. It will remind us what the profession really is. It will advocate to the sector why you need in terms. And most importantly, it will validate that we are a community of professionals unlike any others that exist in the country right now. You know, I love that you mentioned, you know, for some people really looking at that interim because when I talk to potential organizations. I say it could be as short as six months as long as nine, knowing that it still has potential to go beyond that and what I think we've seen and I've talked to you, you know, during coven the last three years is really that interim has gone beyond nine months in many cases, it's even gone beyond that 12 months and something that we've talked about Julia on the show over 800 episodes and some including with Jeffrey is really looking at that C sweet retirement, right like looking at potentially the founder retiring the long term CEO who's been there or COO who's been there, really looking at how can we look at succession planning for the organization across. The entire organization and you know and that's big one and and Jeffrey I was a part of an interim CEO opportunity and what we were considering the second founder right and so this individual was there for 10 plus years. We're really looking at, you know, the potential of the candidates coming in and the organization offered to two different individuals, and they both declined because their organization did not have a succession plan. And so they would have left their organization in a lurch, right, because they would have been leaving this organization to take the leadership at another organization, and therefore leading, you know, leaving this other one without without a leader so cannot wait for the summit cannot wait to hear from all 40 individuals 39 plus myself and really learning more because lifelong leaders I know the three of us are and really looking at you know how this shapes the sector. So for those of you watching and listening, please look at third sector company calm. Jeffrey Wilcox joined us today again serves as CEO of the third sector company just so grateful to have your time and your expertise with us today. So thank you. It's been a lot of fun to see this journey. I get to see this journey with Jared ransom every day because of the work she does, and what she brings back to the nonprofit show so Jeffrey it's really been an exciting thing to to watch your concept and this really special part of our sector grow. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit Academy, been joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jared R ransom. Again, we have amazing sponsors who are with us on this journey called the nonprofit show. They include Bloomerang American nonprofit Academy, your part time controller nonprofit thought leader fundraising Academy at National University staffing boutique nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. Hey, Jeffrey, Jared, we're going to see you at this amazing summit. That's going to kick off many more summits. And we are thrilled that you could be with us today to talk about this. Thank you so much Jeffrey. Good to see you. Hey everybody, as we end every episode of the nonprofit show, we end with this mantra and it goes like this to stay well so you can do well. Thank you everybody. We'll see you back here tomorrow.