 Moving on to our next PAAP Act fireside session that we'll be talking about the creativity in television, what works, what doesn't. Please help me and join and welcoming Harsha Daksha, the Chief Creative Officer of Guilbi India. We've got Sukesh Nayak, Chief Creative Officer of Guilbi India. Of course, Kainaz Karmakar, Chief Creative Officer of Guilbi India is currently in this post, so she won't be joining us. The session chair is Neeta Nayar, Associate Editor. In fact, we'd like to humbly welcome all our esteemed guests of honour and thank you so much for your valuable time on this wonderful day today. And we look forward to a great chat which is lined up ahead. Over to you Neeta to take it forward. Thank you Bhavna. So we have with us two people who are part of the agency which is considered the alma mater of the best creative brains in the country. They are part of a trial which is together churned out path breaking work in the past few years. Well, Kainaz was also supposed to join us today but like Bhavna said she's not well. And Harsha, I think this is possibly the first time that I'm going to be interviewing you alone without Kainaz. So it's going to be interesting. I would say so. Yes. Super. So, you know, let's let me welcome on TV first Sukesh Nayak and Harsha Rajadeksha, Chief Creative Officer of Guilbi India. Thank you so much Neeta for having us here and quite excited. Likewise. And so we are all ready to talk about creativity in TV advertising, what works and what doesn't. So we've seen some fabulous work from Guilbi in the past two years ever since you guys took over as a CCOs. Now, would you call Guilbi an agency where the biggest chunk of work is still happening for TV? Would you want to answer this thought? Yeah, we can both. I mean, we can just keep it whichever way Sukesh, if something pops to mind, we'll just fill in each other. But instinctively, OK, Guilbi is, I would say, and I'm not saying this because I'm associated with the agency right now and whichever capacity. But Guilbi ever since, you know, we were kids and I mean, we were in a student days and college days. I would say, Guilbi has been the one place which practically revolutionized television commercial advertising in India. I would safely say that right from the 90s and the thrust which you should lead. And of course, I mean, we led to an overall, I think, of course, there were many, many great players beyond Guilbi also. But I think Guilbi, because of its sheer width and bulk, I think became synonymous with quality cutting edge TV advertising in India. So given our image and the fact that we take a great pride in all our storytelling. The image is that, yes, Guilbi is probably, you know, we are doing a lot of television advertising right now. But by a sheer volume, it would also mean that the TV advertising is across a bulk and width of brands. But if I were to just say that that's all we are doing, I think we have fast kind of a lot of the other stuff, especially the New Age media, especially revolutions, when it comes to marrying conventional storytelling with technological advancements and technological platforms, social platforms. I think a lot of that is also happening. But yeah, currently, if you look at the sheer proportion of events, I would say that TV advertising is still considerable, but the rest of it is catching up. So I'd like to ask Sukesh. Okay, lovely. So I think I have a, see, we are an agency that stands for ideas. Okay, let's just start with that. And whichever was the medium, I think Harsha Vair actually put it, before our time, I think before we got in, when television was the new medium that was around. I think ideas that were correct for television were mind blown. I think we created some stunning body of work with the new medium that came to play. And that was the way people were communicating, right? So it had to be, and if you're in the business of communication, we got to be in sync with what's being used by people. So I feel that Ogilvy is an agency that stands for ideas that are just across dimension. And I think today, by not just having a virtue of something that we want to own, but the body of work that has been created in the last four, five years like Harsha mentioned, and those are the brands that are ready, willing to take the leap and have taken such incredible journey with them and created a body of work that is probably today being shared as best of class, even in worldwide at WP2. So I think we are, whatever is the medium, we want to own it. We want to do it the best. Let's leave it at that. And you are. But one thing I wanted to ask you is, is TV considered a solitary medium today or are more and more clients looking at a hybrid solution in digital and TV, like what you did for Mondele is not just the Diwali. Is that the norm, are clients coming to you with that kind of a request? I think it's all about what we want to reach and what we want to achieve and what problem we want to solve. I think all these three things are very critical before any campaign that we do and always, as we were very fortunate to have amazing partners and we saw them from far. And now we saw the same table and have conversation with them and we understand why they are so great. I think those amazing partners have truly been the best support of ensuring that whatever is needed, right? So it's not a devoid of let's not do TV. I don't think we are so knee-jerk about stuff, not at all. I think I should say very, very well. We listen to what is to be done first. And then we go back as a team with a whole bunch of things that we think would be the right solution to solve this problem, right? Whatever we have to tackle or take care of or to build. And then we decide, okay, this is the big idea. We like this idea and we can do this by this thing and we can do something here and we can do it here. So if you see a body of work, actually we take great joy in the fact that a lot of things are truly integrated and that's what makes us really happy. And it's just not one thing. And that's what we have at least felt with all the partners that we are working with is that there's a tremendous demand for wanting to do a well thought through idea. So again, idea the heart of it and then how many ways can you make sure the idea reaches to my consumer and make sure that it touches and really makes a difference or makes a talk about it. So whatever is the need, whatever is the idea deserves, we have the support and the backing and the belief to deliver. Between the three of you, Harshad, I see you as a person who really enjoys the creative storytelling. I want to ask you, we've seen very long format content-led ads on digital which have become very popular like Aruna Yars, Bartan Dholi with Sumit Vyas from Waitfit. I'm sure everybody's seen that. But would you say that today it's far more difficult to make a 15 second ad than a five minute video on digital? You're saying in terms of the difficulties of the time constraints? In terms of getting that effectiveness through. Again, I would say in our experience, we have again kind of exactly the point that Sudeesh touched upon. We don't start off by, in our heads as creative storytellers simply start off by saying, hey, let's make this a long story or let's say it in a snappy way. Sometimes it's helpful when as a part of the brief, the media plans, sometimes they are very unbundable. Sometimes, I mean, it's as creative people, we are the first people to kind of get to the table with the clients and the media partners to say that, why does it only have to be a 15 second ad? And especially just as a, without getting into too many details, especially when the need of the brand is to kind of touch an emotional chord. Traditionally as storytellers, I think all three of us can ask Sudeesh, we have all realized that emotions to land them. It's not simply about reading a script on paper and then translating into TV and mathematically reading that. Okay, look how comfortably all these dialogues are fitting over there. There are things where when an emotion is expressed when a dialogue lands with a certain gravitas. There is the exchange of looks, there is a lump in the throat, there is time, which is not, which cannot be justified by mathematics alone. And that is where we often find a bit hard pressed when the need of the brand or the requirement or the appreciation of the client as well as the audience is for emotional advertising, but what you end up with getting is 15 seconds. If that is not the requirement, we try and completely work out a solution by educating our partners at the client and saying that listen, if 20 is the absolute requirement that you'll have and you'll cannot spend beyond that. Then let us tailor our communication to the most impactful 20. Sometimes the client will say that I have to engage with people and really have that kind of a story which can really bring lump to throats because I think this is a cause which requires that kind of a thing. Then we can tell stories. Then we can tell stories. I mean, your Sokesh is behind the fabulous Google reunion that you saw and the length of that film, that needed that. That is a story that cannot be told in what 15 seconds. I don't think it can be told in 40 seconds or even 45, 50 seconds. It needs to play out. So I think it's basically like horses for courses. So I would say yes, it does seem instinctively challenging to say an entire story in 15 seconds. But I think once we know that that is the only requirement. For example, Ken has and I worked on a red label campaign for Mother's Day a few years ago, which is before pre-roll became a thing. We just instinctively thought that hey, the time that kids give to their mothers is so scanty right now. Mothers are taken for granted and the time that a YouTube pre-roll has is so short. It's belly like whatever few seconds. So we equated that and landed a very effective communication where the mothers are trying to slip in the message saying maakohi YouTube ka ad nahi ki usko skip kar do, start spending time with me. So that's how we use the shorter duration and that's where creativity counts. So I think it's again horses for courses. Well said. Again, another thing is TV was always considered this medium for brands with deep pockets and highly established ones. But the past five years, I think has seen an influx of startups, mid-sized brands on TV in good measure, which is great. But what it has also done is it's added to the clutter on TV. So is that a challenge or an opportunity for you guys as creative leaders? Whose job is to make the brand stand out and how do you do that? See, they still have funds. So funds without funds, you don't pay this game. So I think one thing that they have is abundant of amount of funds. What they do with it is where the magic happens. So I think some of them have done some brilliant work and credit to them. Some of them have done some really average work which has to clutter. So I feel that it's good to have people who are truly, you know, driving numbers. I would say most of them are really looking at, you know, they are looking at long time brand building. They are looking at solutions that, you know, earlier, some of the clients have looked at. They're looking at truly, you know, numbers. Get me the numbers. Get me more people on my platform. Get me more people on my platform. So even there, I'm saying, even as that functional challenge that they're sitting on, there's still some of them who are doing very great work. And it's good. It's always good to have people, you know, doing great work. I think that's one thing. So it's always will be those who will truly succeed and stand out who have the courage to look at an idea and say, hey, this scares me. I don't know what will happen to it, but let's go for it. I think if anyone who goes with feeling all great about the idea and saying it's safe from all ends, I think it will remain safe. And that's where I think the clutter gets created. I want to add one point to the last question that you asked, I think it's a very tough one. But I keep saying always 20 seconds is a moment. And if you can get a moment in the emotion, go for it, you will get it. But if you're looking at the storyline in a 20 second of, you know, different emotions coming and going through a very difficult. So those who want a 20 second, those who want a very tight communication, choose an emotion that can be delivered in a moment. It's going to be really nice. It will be very powerful. But there is no where's the up point, where's the down point, where's the high point, where's the climax. That's not going to happen. So I think those standard measurement of no matter what people tell you, I'm sure people must be having lots of presentations and data and see what all of that. But 20 seconds, just one moment from life and a moment can be very beautiful too. As long as we are looking for a moment. I just had, if something linked to the question you asked, yes, advertising has gotten cluttered with so many more players. Is it daunting? I'm seeing it's actually even more challenging for creative because you get to really, really, you know, be sharp and on your toes to make it stand out. But I'm seeing it's a sign of our times, Meeta. If you look at while we are concerned with the advertising space, look at what has happened to entertainment that we consume. We all grew up roughly around the 80s, 90s, our generation. And we often feel that those shows where have all those shows gone, the lovely Malgutty days and the nook cuts or whatever, the Dhu Darshan era and just the beginning of the satellite era. But if you look at that, the number of shows that had a largely captive audience vis-a-vis the earlier times. And now look at what is happening to content. I mean, there is an exclusion. Would those shows have had to pull up their socks? And I don't mean the specific ones I mentioned, but anybody who's right now creating any content, would they pull up their socks and have to be that much more meaningful and sharper and stand out? It's happening everywhere and advertising is no different. You know, it's very true because I was speaking to Sankosh Paddy again, a creative junior. He was telling me that, you know, you remember all the shows, all the ads also from the 1990s. But tell me about, you know, ad that you saw last month and that stayed with you. And it's very difficult to think about, you know, very few that actually fit that category. So yeah, you're right, very, very right there. You know, but tell me something, when a brief comes your way, you know, is the idea to make every ad a masterpiece or to make maybe one in 10 a masterpiece considering that this clutter that is happening. You know, how do you, how do you go about it? I'm trying to get inside your mind. I'm hoping for a candid response. Every brief is an opportunity. Absolutely. Nobody is going to say this, that okay, I just gave one hit, so let me go easy and, you know, take a breather and let four jobs slide because it's unfair to the brief. And honestly, the definition of creative. In fact, somebody back in our student days, one of the students in the forum had asked this question of an advertising legend. And they asked how much creativity it sounded so bizarre, but it was a student asking how much creativity should each ad have. And he said, you might have all the ingredients in your cookbook that you use in the kitchen if you're interested in cooking. But one of the most vital ingredients, which is going to make or break your dish is salt. And no cookbook ever in life is going to prescribe the amount of salt. They'll say add salt to taste. That is in a way the best answer I've heard on this. Every brief will have to be given like sometimes the concept is so complex. Like we have worked on categories where, you know, phone transfer of money when that first came to India. It was a bizarrely complex, you know, concept to grasp. And we had to say it in the most engaging way possible. Now that is a different yardstick of creativity and within the purview of what was required of that brief. We are very happy with the kind of work that we are able to do because would it meet like say, you know, the accepted standard of what 10 people will call the most creative ads of the decade, probably not. But was it extremely creative for the task at hand? It was. So I think I intend what I'm trying to say is creativity will have to be a tailored measured response to that brief. And that's how at least we look at it. And like Sukesh said, the intent is not to ever let, you know, the bold slip. You always. I think the day, okay, the best way to answer very candid. I think every day, even now, after all these years, when I'm when I'm sitting on a project, I still feel scared. Okay, I feel like, well, I get it right. The day you know in the head that I know it all. That's the day I think I should just walk away, because that's the day I will stop doing something which is, and that's the feeling you must have for every single project that you're working on now. Would all of them go on to become a hit. That is something that audience always reacts, people out there react, but you always give it your best shot, and there are many, many factors in play. There are some people who are wanting to do the most bravest work wanting to push and you will automatically see in a team, the gravitation of those, you know, to that kind of projects when they come. There are some that are difficult. There are some very, very difficult to manage things. Nobody wants to put a bad piece of work out there. Never ever once you do a bad piece of work. That's I would try my level best. Never to put something out that you're embarrassed about, right. So, but you always give it your best shot keeping all the moving, you know, balls in the air, which one's going to fall there but I think personally for me, I work in every day even now. Feeling like, you know, a little bit. There is always that doubt. Will you fail this time. I think that's what keeps you going. Still, I think, you know, whatever said and done, there are still certain kind of brands which get an added attention from properly. I don't know if I'm wrong. For example, if the red ad or a pack up and add both will be clients. I'm not wrong. They don't stand out as much as a model is at. So are there certain brands which are even attractive for a creative person to work on? No, like I said, all our clients, all all the brands we try to do our best. Okay, we do we always, I think I would say nobody will be whatever look at a piece of work and say this one I don't want to do because I think you you always will try to give it your best shot. You always push as much as you can, but it's even if it's a let's say to create a post because someone is waiting to put that post out there which gets the whole world talking about it and that's what you're looking for. At the end of the day you joined this business to basically make sure that you know someone said, wow, I didn't expect this. So you never know where it might come from. So I think give all the same amount of attention and the same amount of effort. And but at the end of the day work that comes out is obviously something that it depends on the world of people out there who like to see and love it or not love it is something in their hands. Now you spoke about how even today clients with big budgets of the ones who are on TV, but talking about the production value and the size, the kind of money they are putting in today. Does it still mean great production values is directly related to success and has the pandemic kind of shrunk the kind of money that is put into an advertisement? No, I don't think that I mean, what is needed? What is needed? I think if you come to will be for example, you obviously you are you are paying what will be for example is asking for. Now that could be, you know, there's no, there's no fixed, you know, it's always bought a talent at the end of the day. So even a production we believe to work with the best talent that we feel will take your idea to the next level. Now that talent pool is everybody like a director, there's a DOP, there's a music director, so many people you work with. So we always always always recommend to always work with people who can add something which is 10 on 10 and make it maybe 12 on 10. And that's what magic happens. So that's what we do. But the end of the day there is a reality that comes into play and then you decide how to, you know, put a best team together on that. And so that's what we did. But coming to the last question that you asked, which is about is there a no not really I think there are some people who had to because the business was impacted. So for us for us for a certain amount of time I did see, you know, a change in, you know, what they used to do earlier what they did, but I'm also seeing them coming back and saying that you know this one let's make it bigger. And let's try to work with this, you know, this team, let's for let's try to get something even, you know, so I think the intent to bounce back is even there in even everyone round. So, again, like I said, nobody wants to do that piece of work. I don't think anybody wants to create anything which is not a memorable. So, even if there was, there was a time where, and if they see value by the way, so another thing if they see value, people are willing to spend the money. So if there's a value that's not able. So if there's a value which is not been justified that no one spending for sure. I'd like to come to you. You know, what about this ultra sensitive audience of today, you know, I'm talking about how see a seemingly non controversial act can become explosive in minutes, seconds rather. Tanishk, Tanishk example is a beautiful one, I think. And it kind of gets magnified threefold if it's on TV. So how do you create advertising instead? And now, like right now, is there a rule book on which, you know, you have listed things as these are the things I don't touch, you know, be the bank. There are two aspects which at least as practitioners of idea creation, we have come to realize which is one is, I think it's just like the Holy Grail. I mean, that is, there is no deviation from this. Brands are personalities and brands are people. So do not do anything which just for, you know, quick access and quick talkability, do not sensationalize anything which is not in sync with the tonality and the personality of your brand. And why just, but lots of people feel that it's a shortcut or a ticket to get there, you know, two days of notizability and talkability. But it can boom brand so badly on your brand if that is not in your brand's DNA. But if it adheres to the world and the values that you have for your brand, then don't shy away from it. Then don't shy away from it because if it is relevant and of course there are enough safeguards in any practicing, you know, team in any agency that there are so many custodians, not just the creative people, the planners, the account management and the client team itself, that there are almost like these are the elders who will always watch out for the baby that's growing up. So there will be a lot of quality checks and tick boxes with say that, you know, are we offending anybody, you know, is this likely to be a fallout. And also is if it is not, if it is really absolutely sparkling and true to that brand's character. And if you still feel along with your client partner that that is the right thing for the brand to do, because it is the correct thing to do. I think we have been blessed with some brilliant client partners who show that kind of faith in the world. And then it's like if later on so and so scenario emerges, but we have the conviction that we have done what is absolutely clear to our target audience and to the brand, then you shouldn't fear it. But the equally what I said in the beginning is you shouldn't, we don't try and set off by saying, hey, you know what, let's create a sensation. Now, with the situation outside, especially with social media so volatile, that usually adds up a certain lifespan in terms of ideation. Usually even at the tightest, you will have a couple of weeks from ideation to getting a production partner on board to executing it. And suddenly like it happened, I don't want to get into the brands or whatever, but last year, there was a small controversy after the death of a Bollywood star about a commercial which was conceived so much in advance that it had no bearing on what people made out of it. So that you cannot help, but was it true to the brand at hand and what did it kind of live up to all the requirements it did. So then you don't need to fear anything, that's the only thing. I think as far as this particular brand is concerned they continue to air it and they said we're not going to apologize. Yeah, because absolutely there was nothing wrong with it and at that time I think a brand also shouldn't back down in fear and that's the right example. No, I think the best point he made, which is very interesting to, if your DNA is the platform that you're working on and you're not just doing something for a day, for a moment, for an occasion, which has got nothing to do what you stand for, the difficulty will be if something gets picked up and a discussion happens on it for example. I think it's easier to stand by something that this is what I've been doing for years, what are you talking about? It's not the first time I came. So if it's part of your DNA as a platform, it's far easier and these days as we all know everything is debatable, everything has a conversation on it, topic on it, everything can be talked about. So while we enjoy the attention of success, there are times when we also have to be ready to face the music if something for whatever reason, because we can't look at social media only one way. We just can't look at sharing things and going, wow, all the time. Sometimes people may react differently, but if it's part of your DNA, then you have a conversation point, you can stand by it and say, I've been doing this the last five years, two years running. So then there is a conversation at least and that gives you what I should say that I think very important and you can stand behind your work and stand for it rather than justify it. Also, we touched upon this in the beginning of the conversation and maybe talked about how will we, maybe to some people, big clients, it's still a big mainline agency. A lot of work is happening on TV, but has a profile of the person watching TV changed and as creative people, are you accordingly creating ideas to suit that? A lot of my friends don't even have DTH connections at home today. They've all moved on to Netflix's of the world. So does it automatically mean if I have to create an idea for the youth, I'm going to digital and if I want to create an idea for adults, it's going to be on TV. I mean, how does it work for you? First, I want to sit down with these clients who think about us like this. I think you should do a next session with them. I think that's very important for them to meet us and have a conversation. Because I think that that perception is absolutely, I don't know what to say, because it's incredible with the kind of body of work that we have. Again, it's ideas. We stand behind ideas. I totally, I always admired, I remember when I had been a long journey for me here and I've always seen people and like Star Wars literally ahead of us do some extraordinary work. And I was like, oh my God, how did I think of that? And even today, I hope the youngsters in our system believe that, oh, how did they think of that? I think that's what keeps it going and that's very, very important to ensure. So yeah, the first thing is that. Harsh, do you want to take the second question? Sorry, what was the second part of the question, Lita? The changing patterns of younger people watching this. So yeah, while there is a lot of, I mean, I know, forget the younger people, even people, I would clearly call myself a happy middle-aged person. But many of my contemporaries also have done away with the standard television channel, Betkebi Serial Dikenge. But having said that, sometimes, you know, the strategic team, which includes the client, it includes obviously our plan planning team. And we have got some really wonderful minds at the end who we completely, I mean, trust their judgment on and their analysis on. And of course, we also come in early on. So at times when we are given a clear picture, the increasing number of briefs which are absolutely digital first. And even within that, you know, platform sharp, like we have had briefs in the past two years, more than ever before, would simply come and tell us that we want to make this content, but we only are targeting Instagram users. Or you know, we want to make this content, but it will never run on TV, it will only run on XYZ platform. That in a way is challenging, but it also makes it crystal clear. And then you step into the shoes of what this person, he or she is consuming. And then it becomes that much more daunting, but that much more exciting too. So that isn't happening with every, you know, that kind of customization isn't happening with every strategic brief that comes to us. But we are seeing an increasing number of those happening. It makes our life easier. Otherwise, I think none of us absolutely blindly go with an assumption that because, hey, you know, it's a youth music app. So we will only do this and not TV. I think that is also too premature in our country where TV holds such big sway to for us to assume and then tailor it to that. And so usually it has to be backed by a certain amount of precise data to go about it and rather than assume because media anywhere has a certain cost application. And with the most digital first ideas that we have done, even those have needed video format story to explain to people what those ideas go. So I think if you ask me, it's for anything at the end of the day has an output. And even the smartest of the smartest, you know, the Grand Prix contenders that can. They have a video to tell you what their idea is right. So it's extremely important to just, you know, ensure that nothing is a. It's all it's all there in the problem that's sitting in front of us, and we have amazing partner like harsha said we trust the judgment that comes from and then our job is to find the most exciting solution that can solve a problem which is age defying whatever like, you know, I think it's like, you know, I remember time and suddenly everyone is doing raps. That's that's something that we don't want to do. We don't like to do. We want to we want like I said we all want to try to have something whether on whatever medium TV digital print radio that people talk about that's the first job. Like I remember someone told me nobody watches an ad right nobody watches an ad anywhere whether in digital craft wherever you are so please make something that people talk about and just stop to watch the stuff that we do. So that's the most important thing we have to do so whatever is the medium. I think the most important task of the hand to all of us will always be can I make people watch this and fall in love with it or you know experience it or you know enjoy it or spend time here and do something with it. But you know you spoke about rap. Similarly, you know, we still have those formula ads, you know, women bewitching men with their beauty, useless use of absolutely horrible use of celebrities. So, you know, why are those still being made. I thought they had run their course and we're at new age. No, so there will always be a mix. We are actually in fact, as you know, custodians of the communication, we often, I mean, luckily, a lot of the clients that Sokesh Kenazai and our teams work with. And I'm saying this not because it's, you know, the right thing to say but because it shows in the work that we are blessed with some awesome client partners who have shaken off this mold. You know, what is the what we have seen on the inside when we get into these discussions. The urge to follow a formula is actually, it's a self goal because it's self defeating for the purpose of creativity. Creativity by definition is going to mean that, you know, say the relevant thing but say it in the most surprising, most stand out way possible. Say it in the most amazing way possible so that people remember you amidst the sea of the messages. But certain category connects what some of our friends on the client side, some of them don't realize is there are certain codes which have come into being because somebody decided to create those codes when they were none. That's why they stood out. That's why the business group. That's why the advertising became popular. But then it became a pattern of clones. Acha uskavo jewelry ad essay shorts key wedges here essay formula give us each other. Uska suffering at it worked because of these things. His car advertising that brands car advertising work because you know they show these kind of shots. It worked for them now let us also do a little work for us. Maybe it can even do three other brands for a certain stretch can possibly gain some notizability. And then what you're doing is you're shooting yourself in the foot because I mean why will you stand out if you keep going and going into the comfort and the safety of said formulas. That is what at least I mean we don't expect them because obviously I mean the other ones were shelling out the money so somebody understand whether comfort comes on. My category is hard. And it's the fear of the unknown. I mean we do advertising tomorrow and told that you know you should at least take your first step in learning nuclear something about nuclear physics. I'll be scared. So in a way anything that's a change is going to be you're telling them to walk an uncharted course. The most we can do is agencies is to handle them and say that we are not trusting them alone on that path as an agency partner we have a conviction and we are walking with you. So let's try something which is different but yet on a relevant beef. So yes you're right about the fact but it is equally true that things are changing we are trying our best to convert. I would say that the ratio of that is coming down and I am positive and I'm very hopeful that everyone benefits from that and all agencies are not just really I hope that we all do stuff which is you know if you're good about really great about creating something like that. So I think I at least in yes I totally agree they are still there. I see them and I see them and I acknowledge them. But I'm hoping that people see it's all about it's at the end of the day it's all about courage and conviction. The more people have courage and conviction the fact that audiences are not sitting out there and saying to show me this yeah at least you know and like I said the first thing for me ads are not something there are people I know who are ad colleagues you know they love to watch ads great. But they're not majority people don't want to so we have to surprise them we have to you know catch them and surprise them so I think I hope for the interest of everybody that also changes soon. But tell me which are your favorite I mean I know you do your fair as far as you know the output is concerned but there must be some favorite clients with yours some favorite brands in general like we have a Machado in the west. Are there any for random Machado's in India that you look up to and you want to work on. Quite a few of them yeah I mean there's not to say I mean this is of course like we're saying that every brand and every client has a reality that we are also getting used to. So and again not because it's some politically correct thing to say but everybody and because we are partners to them and we don't come in like an external you know just one external party for just some superficial amount. We know the trouble that maybe their brands haven't you know had this spotlight on them yet. But there are certain brands which might not have yet but there are certain realities there might be you know structural realities at the organizations there might be a legacy issue there might be a market issue for which that work has not shown. So I wouldn't really you know grade any of our clients because I really know that the trouble is real for everybody. But in terms of just talking about there are a host of brands where where things have worked and which have resulted at least for I mean I'm sure. So Kish has those those wonderful experiences where the work can be pushed and some of the most I mean some of the most noticeable work that has happened with many of our clients on our side we can safely say some of our work some of our Unilever work Unilever corporate or ITC what the salon team is doing with us. I mean the excitement of waiting for a new idea I mean we often kind of you know have to tell us this is the same kind of excitement that is usually there in creative teams within the agency. So we have we have these equations going we are of course Mondays I mean so Kish can give his own stories of so many brands so we have a host of them so it will be I think as clear as as correct as it sounds it will be unfair to single out a few but top of the mind these are some of the things which have translated into that kind of work. Yeah I think it took most of the names I'll add one more to the Coca Cola it's insane yeah. So again it's not I think the answer to your question is what I find incredible is that there is a leader in all these companies. Who's obviously setting the you know what the path must be what I find the depth of the work that is amazing across the names that Harsha shared and you know I just took a few of them is every single brand under that in that company is today wanting to happily do stuff which is magical so it's not just one brand. Every company sitting with multiple brands and that is the magic that I am so happy to you know be part of and my teams and you know all the people that we work with you know and it's it's the partnership that we are creating across you know so for example even the people let's say directors always were working with us right. So many of them good morning you know Bob, Varma, Prasoon so many you know Vivek and so many Rajiv Rao you know fantastic. So there's so many the list is endless you know so I think that it's the team that that comes together because of that one leader who has the vision to trust and the leaders are we are very fortunate to have many of them sitting and working with us and we'll be so yeah we have a full team by the way I can count 11 of them by the way we can make a star team of plants yeah. No and it's a very I also want to stress upon one thing within like when I broadly used an umbrella term like Unilever, Unilever is the equivalent of you know like 20, 30 odd brands under that umbrella it's great to see I think the heart of the industries in the right place they might have their you know whatever ground realities every brand will have its ground realities because of the kind of work that is coming out but we have seen that good work has to start a ripple effect. So within Unilever also you know Brookbond Ho, Dove Ho, Comfort Ho so many so many different categories that we work with like any brand that you know not just like a score on good work it creates a ripple effect you get compliments from all the teams and similarly not just that when much of the work on Mondalys happened the most heartening thing I've seen is be it SRK not just a Cadbury ad or be it Good Luck Girls the amount of other Ogilvy clients who have called us to compliment I think that shows that this industry has its heart in the right place. That's a great point that's a great point I love the so one is the internal I think what we spoke about what we're trying to tell you was that it's a team of multiple brand managers and marketing managers and working under this set of marketing whatever designation whichever company they have but the love for good work the other good work you know calling each other in their you know in their own conferences that's amazing you know it's just so nice to see to be invited to you know and they know obviously because we run the you know we work on multiple brands now so to get an invitation why don't you come with your partner to our marketing off site and can you share some of your and the willingness from this side also say yeah why not that's great I mean you know I know this person and they're also doing great work so that's very very healthy to be appreciative to acknowledge so it feels good to be that you're working with such people who are forever you know congratulating each other and supporting each other and not just sitting out there and saying you know that was not good this was not good because I think our business is so subjective it is so like you know and like I said most of the time there's love but there's also hate sometimes which is also okay because part of the game you can't just look for love all the time but it's good to know that we are working with people our partners who are appreciative of each other's work that's wonderful feeling to be that that's really nice but you know if I were to quote David Ogilvy I think he said we regard advertising as an art form and expect your clients to fund your expressions of genius but you know they just pay us to sell their products nothing like that. Is that true? Are there clients who still I mean who want to go beyond and create an art form? No, business sees like I think the point is the point to remember it's a business and we must do business to us to have the because without earning there will be none of this right without there will be none of it which is happening so I think all of them are obviously extremely good at in terms of understanding what the problem is and what will the solution be and innovative solution that they're looking for to help their business I think that the difference here is they're not just looking for a solution they're looking for the innovative solution and that's where the magic happens where the transfer happens from just a ordinary you know something like before after if I could say so to something and before after can be very magical also by the way so I take my word back but just as a great idea there but I just feel that all of them know what is the problem and they all are very clear that they want a very innovative solution to the problem and I think just because they're absolutely aware of the fact and they're very clear that they're looking for an innovative solution is why we are able to do the kind of work that we are creating. Asha, do you agree? You want to ask? Yeah, in fact no in fact I wanted to add to that that the question that you asked I think there is nothing wrong with the client thinking the way they do if they say that it's say Mira business stabilise Honewa like any because I think we would be unaligned and mismatched if we ourselves didn't get it I mean we are absolute we consider ourselves and especially at Ogilvy we consider ourselves you know almost like warriors for creativity because you know creativity means supreme and everything but that means the quality of the work because all of Ogilvy beyond the creative department also we have seen as geared towards that but I'm seeing all of it comes from an understanding that it can't be creativity for its own sake and that is something we have never been delusional about and while we love fine art and we love you know we have our own favorites in every form of expression we are an applied art that is what we have been taught that is what we consider it as a challenge and that is what we consider it as our ultimate glory of our work only and only if everything that we do it has to ultimately give our business the assurance that it is moving towards the targets that this work the client has invested X amount of money it should give them a beat short-term long-term I'm not saying that every advertising has to be added, today I went to the shop and bought it but I'm saying even creating brand love if it's helping an later concentration I think it has a direct implication on the you know on the business of the client and we are very cognizant of that at times a client helps to set those goals and they say that you know I'm not expecting sales to go up immediately this quarter but I want my brand to start making a place in people's heart and be considered that by itself is a business goal so I'm saying we will be foolhardy and we will be stupid if we decide that you know so and so client doesn't look at anything beyond business because like Sukhi said until their business until their cash registers are ringing they are not going to be patrons of good work and in the process the very fact that our work needs to be different why being relevant allows us to do you know culture defining work I think they can't be mutually exclusive they are joined together the business goals and the right creativity and I think you guys are doing a remarkable job of that within the constraints and with Kan coming up we are hoping to see you pick up much many more medals out there thank you so much there are no constraints there are no constraints that's the challenge yeah that's a nice way of looking at it I honestly don't think there are constraints by the way because it took me some time and I must share with you I used to go to future member house and I remember once he told me I was very young and he said the day you will build your house if the architecture tells you don't make walls don't put windows leave open would you do it because it's all got practical stuff that has to be considered and then you will say okay and it was something just as you know how to keep example knowledge and obviously I was nowhere in my stage of life to build anything I was like I barely have enough to go and meet my friends but when the stage I think you realize that it's true because there are constraints there are the real things that we are solving and they have come to us just like anyone goes to a specialist to in that problem find me the solution and I think when we deliver that you see magic happen always I feel that every time I remember the you know the Google brief was so clear it was like I still remember everyone knows me but no one sees anything for me can you put some soul into my super tech product I think that couldn't have got a clearer view I was like wow and there was no TG there was no like you know young people you're not saying you just and of course we wrote lots we wrote tons we wrote because we're so exciting to write that and then we chose one of it did we know it becomes that big with no idea we were just having so much fun you know we made it we went about it we executed and then the rest is history but we all want to do it was not a constraint it was a challenge to solve and we all had a great time solving the challenge and the output is like I said at the end of the day it's in the you know the courtroom of public love it hate it it's up to them but we always want to have fun while we're doing that so no constraints never so in that case let me be let me let me hope that I'm here's hoping that you fly high and may sky I hope so thank you for having us bye