 Okay, so could you please give us your full name? Janice, Martha, and Zink. And your age, please. I'm 51 years old. And where were you born? I was born in Ottawa, but I spent most of my life in the military. Okay, in Dartmouth? In Dartmouth, yes. A little bit in Greenwood as well. My dad was in the military, so we moved around a lot. Okay, yeah, I was just going to ask what did your parents do? My dad was in the military in the Air Force, and my mother was a teacher. Okay. And you as a child, what were your go-to activities or your interests? You know, in addition to the things that I think most kids like, you know, we're playing with our friends and things like that, I did some sports and as well. I liked a lot of crafts and things like that, little more creative activities. And that school, any standout subjects? I definitely was much stronger in math than I was in the arts and the languages. And I think that's why I kind of probably gravitated towards science. I really liked chemistry because I liked the way that in chemistry, you know, just the formation of new compounds and things like that. But math was always something that came fairly simply to me. I found it was easy and it was one of those things I could do with my homework in front of the TV easily. So, yeah, those were the subjects I kind of preferred. And moving forward, like in high school, did you have any idea already what you wanted to do? I think in high school, I knew I was going to go into the sciences. And going into eventually being in metallurgy was kind of one of those haphazard kind of roots that I got there. It was really, I didn't start off in metallurgy. I started off, I started off in geochemistry and then made the choice to separate that degree into two, one in geology and then one in chemistry. So, and I actually, I never ended up in metallurgy until I started working at CAM Math. And that was just really by coincidence, too, that I ended up working here initially because I had done some work with the Geological Survey of Canada. And then I got a job here. It's in hydrometallurgy. And after a short period of time, my employer asked me to return to school to do my graduate work in hydrometallurgy, which was a tremendous opportunity, which really took me down that path to where I am today. And this was CAM Math, your employer? Yeah, I've been with CAM Math my whole 26 years and feel, I think because of the early beginnings, with that investment in me, I feel very much loyal to the organization. And the organization has given me many, many, many opportunities and I've been able to do many diverse activities. Where did you go to school? So I did my undergraduate degrees, chemistry and geology, the two degrees at Carleton University here in Ottawa. And I did my masters in metallurgical engineering at McGill. So did you come straight from Nova Scotia to come to school here? In growing up in Nova Scotia, then we were transferred back to Ottawa. So I came back to Ottawa. And then my parents went back to Nova Scotia and I ended up staying. And so you had quickly mentioned that you started working with CAM. What would you consider to be officially your first job in your career? I would say that was my first career job. I had student work experience jobs, that was my first real job, which I started here in December 1989. And I remember it really well, because it was just a few days before the master had a co-college technique, which is a coincidence in the fact that I was a female entering into this kind of male-dominant environment. And then the following year, I was in McGill to do my engineering degree in Montreal. So when I look back on it, I had lots of memories from that experience, because those two things that happened, the starting up and then having that happen to those females that were a co-college technique and then the following year being at McGill in engineering. Must have already been in the back of it. Yeah, it was kind of a poignant moment. So when I started, I actually started as a technician. You know, it was kind of one of those, we were in the recession. I took, and I had the opportunity to get a government job and that, I took that opportunity. And again, I didn't, I felt that they, I had ample opportunities when I was here to be able to stretch myself to do different things. And that allowed me to, I think, ultimately get the graduate education. So again, I can't, I can't met in natural horse accounts, but very, very good to me throughout my career. And you had mentioned the massacre and you also being a woman and how that affected you. I often like to ask women and men, and obviously there are more men in the natural resource industry, but if you could comment on that, maybe when you started, how absent or present were women and has that changed? And also how have you felt and been treated being a woman in the natural resource industry? So when I started, there were very few women here. Even the government setting. I mean, I can imagine even worse working on site, but here there were very few women working in science and technology. I can not, there were only a couple. And so at the time it was a bit intimidating and I did have my own experiences with respect to how I had to kind of establish how I need to be treated in the workplace. I had an experience of sexual harassment. There was always the joking around, and I was completely fine with that. I grew up with two brothers and that was not a big deal to me at all. But I found when I looked back on it, and actually there was a kind of like an aha moment that went off of me, that in the beginning that it was me that was putting up barriers to myself because I was a woman. It was not men. It was just me thinking, the men were thinking something of me. So as soon as I kind of realized that it was my own limitation, and I kind of stripped that from my thinking and never had an issue again. And I've never had an issue with men or being a woman in a fairly male dominant environment. I've always felt that that was respected equally. And I've always felt that I had a voice around the table and I never felt that I was limited in any capacity. And that goes with whether I'm here or working in the association, volunteer responsibilities, or on site. I certainly had some unique experiences, I think because I'm a woman, but nothing that I've ever looked back and thought, well that's going to hold me back. It has some funny strange things happen because yes, I was probably the only woman in a situation, but not to the point where there's been limitation. And I've fully felt support from my male colleagues and peers here, and externally. And since you started, have you seen more women join this workforce? Yeah, there's certainly more women. Interestingly, last week I was at the Canadian Mineral Processors Conference that we organized. So we were kind of curious about how many women were there. We worked it out, including our students. They're 10%. So 10% of the delegates were women, which is still not very good, because I think in engineering in general it's probably more like 20, 25, 30. So while I think yes, we're making advances, particularly in engineering, in the education part of it. Some reason women aren't necessarily entering into the workplace or staying in the industry. And there are many reasons for that. So yes, I've seen some improvement. And we may never get, we're never going to get to an equal. And I don't think that we should expect to, because certain professions are more interesting to women than other professions. And I think we shouldn't just force fit something, just because a population is 50-50, that we have to have 50-50 everywhere. So what we do need to, I think have women need mentors, female mentors to show them that yes, it's okay, or we need to change some policies to make it a little easier for them at some point. And then easier, just more accommodating to certain, to the female situations. But some improvement definitely, but we still could improve a bit more. We'll get more into your full career in a moment. But this is always a question that people find difficult to answer, which is have you ever worked in a dysfunctional job or project? Is there something you remember that stands out as being dysfunctional? Well, I think there's, I think there's always a level of dysfunction in almost every project. So what I would say one project was extremely dysfunctional compared to another, probably not, but there are certainly elements where I see dysfunction originating. A lot of times I think it's, is lack of teamwork. It's a bit sometimes with a little bit of a competition or an ownership. So there's lack of collaboration. Sometimes it's lack of organization too, but generally it's kind of having that common, when a common vision is lacking and buy in to that common vision, that's where I think the dysfunction originates. So I can see that in some projects that I've worked on where that's, that message in that vision is not as clear and so there's a bit of dysfunction because people are kind of not working in different paths or kind of working at odds with each other. So I wouldn't say any particular project, but I think in elements of all of my projects. Yeah. Which often happen with teamwork. Exactly. Yeah. Understandably. You had mentioned women needed mentors. Would you say you have a mentor or a few mentors, women or men? Yeah, definitely I think I've had mentors. I've never had a formal mentor, mentorship program or anything like that, but I looked to certain, there are certain individuals that, that I try to look to them for guidance or kind of almost modeling their behavior in certain regards. One of them recently passed away in 2014 and he was, he was the man that hired me which was Ray McDonald. He worked here and he was also highly involved with the preliminary processes. But what he taught me was, he taught me really the value of volunteering, which I've done throughout my career which has really made my career very rewarding and it's enriched my career immensely, not only through my networks that I've formed but you know I've expanded my skill sets. He's also taught me ways in which I could handle different situations that I thought, I look so impossible but he was able to handle things with grace and so I learned from him that way. Then there's others that are still around like Peter Kondos for example from Barrick. I worked with him when he worked here in the early early days and he kind of, he taught me about being, about being persistent but being strategic about thinking things through but at the same time going for things. So there were some things I learned from him that I still hold today and there are certainly others. You always try to look and try to pull the best from people through all the people that you work with whether it's directly or indirectly, you try to see what are some aspects about their behavior, where they conduct themselves and how they manage things that oh I could adopt for myself. So I think you can find a mentor or almost everybody whether they're older than you, younger than you, at your level or below you or above you and it doesn't really matter. I think everybody has something that they can share and it's something that you can pull from somebody else away in which you can improve yourself. Yeah, everybody should try to learn, right? Exactly, yeah. Continuously. You mentioned volunteering. What kind of volunteering do you do? Well, in a professional setting I've been highly involved with as I mentioned, and that is something that I started back. I got first involved probably in 1993 in a small role, but I also now have been highly involved with them for probably the last decade or more. So that has spun off into my involvement with CIM, sitting on Council and XCOM, but also that probably partially got me involved with, for a while and then a few years ago I was asked to rejuvenate, restart the environment society of CIM. Because the society was essentially kind of dead. So it was one of those, again, through that network I was asked to do that. We restarted it, re-branded it to the environment and social responsibility society. It's very strong right now. One of those societies is continuing to grow in terms of membership. So all of those things in terms of professional, my professional setting, there's probably a few others for sure that they're connected but you know, it helps so much in terms of your network, but your skill set it's like training and so it's been tremendously rewarding for me. That's my day-to-day work. It also adds, brings a lot of value to my day-to-day work because of all the connections that I have with the different people and certainly wouldn't probably be having this interview without those, that volunteerism and that connection with those people who have worked with throughout my career because of those roles that I served in. Now if you go back to your career I mean, you've worked with CAM at your entire career. You worked for the large part of your, I guess the first half of your career as senior environmental scientist, is that correct? So yes, when I first started I said before I went to grad school I actually started for my time as a technician and from there then after I came back from my education I became a scientist and I made the switch. At that time the environment was very much on the forefront. That was the priority. So even though I had just finished researching hydrometallurgy I made the switch from hydrometallurgy application to environmental challenges for the mining industry. So from there I did a lot of work in terms of mailing water aspects, water treatment, metal removal and also the residue management something that nobody really had looked at before. So what was the residue or the sludge that was coming from water treatment? What were they doing with it? How stable was it? How much is they producing of it? Are there concerns? Nobody had really looked at it before so I went off into that area and did a lot of work in that field for many, many, many years probably maybe a decade or so. Then after that it was when I kind of took a little bit of a high age so much but I went to our sister sector in energy. I spent a short period of time there just managing energy-related R&D with respect to buildings and communities. It was a different type of certainly job altogether because it was more of a coordination role and less of a delivery doing role. So I liked very much the energy almost the underdog nature of minerals and metals and I was asked to return from that assignment to manage a group at that time was called the Mindwist Management Group and so from there I started managing when the competition became I guess manager group in 2001. In that group then I was still able to do some research and do some of my water related work, water treatment and water management but also oversaw the work with respect to tailings reclamation and all of that was under my portfolio projects and then around 2010 or so there was this restructuring here and they combined the processing group which was quite small at the time with the Mindwist Management Group so the processing people joined me and so I had all the process the gold, the basement, all the mineral processing, all of that stuff as well as the Mindwist Management. So that went on for a few years then just after that we started with the green mining initiative and the green mining initiative was it's still, it's something we're focused on it's now been rebranded to the green mining innovation research and the green mining innovation so and then more recently of course from there I've gone over to focus almost exclusively under processing so we've just kind of restructured again and we have a whole new processing division it's growing in size we're trying to rebuild back that capacity and then we have this new funding that came in for rarest and chromite R&D so that's kind of in a very small nutshell kind of a transition through the years of that So you've always, you seem to have always been involved in the more environmental aspect of metallurgy, of mining? Yeah I think because of my hydromethac background and there's always generally been more environmental or trying to be looking at the greener side of things whether it be energy reduction and comminution which is a focus right now or it be on green processing for sure there's always been that kind of slide Are there any I guess are there any concrete examples you could mention about you had worked most in processing things like that on how from back when you started to today how things have drastically changed perhaps for the better Sure, there's been many, I mean the biggest change of course is environmentally I mean back when I started they were just coming into looking at really some of the environmental impacts particularly dealing with things like mine waste tailings, acidic drainage and we really progressed quite far in terms of you know managing those we haven't solved the issue around acidic drainage but we can manage it very effectively there's just a greater awareness in terms of making sure that we we're not impacting the environment water treatment you know now instead of just looking at the number the concentration end of pipe it's more about cumulative effects what's that number that metal concentration really doing in the environment it's not just okay that looks low enough it's like no is it really impacting the ecosystem so and then taking that information and feeding it back and making changes to regulation there's been far greater awareness and willingness not even just awareness it's not no longer is it something that's prescriptive it's now when you see the mining companies they want to go further they want to be cleaner and greener and they do not want to have any impact not that they wanted to in the past but before it was maybe seen as costly now it's they see it as directly related to their performance and there's been many studies have shown that the greater environmental performance links very closely with economic performance so there's a huge that's a huge change and I think we see that through processing through all of the different aspects of the mining cycle energy is huge people recognize yes energy is very costly but they also see they recognize in terms of emissions whether they be particulate or greenhouse gas reduction in energy reduction in fossil fuels reduction in diesel better ways to manage waste we're getting down the road where we start to see waste it's not just waste it can be a resource we're not quite there yet in my opinion but there's a there's a bit more of a thought process there is some you know some people are looking into and trying but we're not quite there we're not it's still a bit of a disconnected the components of the the mining process through processing and the environment are still disconnected they're not we're not looking at integration they're not looking at a systems approach it's coming people are talking about it innovation there's a need for greater innovation no doubt again people are talking things are moving but because of the nature of the business particularly now commodity prices so low the cyclic nature of the industry it's challenging so we gotta find ways to adjust it but clearly there's been improvements and I would say the biggest of which has been on environment environmental side of things do you think the general public are critical enough to not critical enough of the mining and the industry regarding the environmental aspects of it I would say the public is too critical or misinformed or not maybe not misinformed but just not well informed the industry does not do itself service they do not share their success stories if you look at the way that minerals and metals are used in your everyday life it's an actual relative footprint of mining relative to other industries it's pretty small compare that to agriculture it's very tiny and the industry has made great strides to try to minimize their footprint of course there's still room for improvement but those stories don't get out it's partly because there's again a disconnect between the minerals and metal products that we use everyday we all use many of them versus the mines that are out in rural communities that people in metropolitan areas do not see so now I've had people say to me we still have mining in Canada yes in fact it's a major industry for Canada but it's one of these things where the industry itself is a bit modest and they focus on getting their business done they're they could be telling a better story so I don't think I think we only hear the bad news stories of course generally in the news the bad news stories are always the things that people will be drawn to whether they're environmental disasters or it's murder on the street or something it's the one that will get to the very top of the news I think that the industry has done a lot it can continue to do more but it can also show some of the great things it's doing and some of the advances it's making and some of the improvements it's made it's contribution to the economy as well as to everyday life do you think it perhaps has a hard time because what it usually entails is very esoteric it's very complex material they're dealing with I think it's partly that it's it's you know I think it starts back at the very beginning with even just in elementary schools where that message is not getting out and you need to have that kind of discussion with educators to let them know the value so that they can communicate to the younger generation CIM is doing great things with their M4S program as PDAC to reach out but to tell that story because a lot of times you just can't just put it in a media article while mining is great that's not I don't think the way it's going to work it's got to be people understanding the value of the industry trying to understand what it would be like to go a day without using a minimal amount of product there's so many different materials exactly just try to go without your smartphone it's good luck and that's just one so that's one of the things that I do here it's another opportunity that I have at NRCAN is being able to during National Science and Technology Week or National Mining Week to bring students in host open houses or go to schools to be able to tell them about mining and its contribution to their lives but also get them to understand a bit about what goes on throughout the mining life cycle and that's just it's that communication but I think too because of the industry is it's really a boat delivery and it's delivery in the bottom line there's not a lot of room for extras so they don't have necessarily funding I don't think to be able to do big marketing strategies and maybe too they don't feel that I don't know I can't talk really on behalf of the industry on why but I just think the industry could have better some better news stories and it's done a lot to improve the way that they operate and as I said their contribution versus their impact is not as necessarily always communicated properly so you're you are still director of the green mining initiative which is the green mining initiative green mining innovation processing could you elaborate a little bit on that what your role and the role of the so I'll talk about the green mining the green mining initiative started in 2009 and it was really meant to kind of address issues around environmental performance but at the same time look at it as an opportunity to enhance competitiveness because not only were we looking at technologies that would be greener I think on many times a greener technology can also be one that's more cost effective you just have to look as I said the example earlier about energy you reduce energy consumption you reduce cost you reduce region consumption you reduce cost so things like that and trying to look at ways in which we could improve the environmental performance but it also provide more financial return and economic return for the industry so we started we started out in 2009 with that and we didn't there were a number of different pieces of work that started not only the research but also you know of course the stakeholder engagement and these things like that since then we've now at CAMMET put all of the work that we do here under green mining innovation so all of our mining before we had our conventional mining so it's our mining processing and environmental management falls under that so everything that we do here moves forward with that common objective of reducing environmental impact and improving economic performance and that's how the technology that we develop I need to pivot in line with that the same time we're very closely with our stakeholders through different advisory committees and also with the provinces and territories to ensure that the technologies that are developed kind of are deployable and implemented and and at the same time last year I had the privilege of being the a distinguished lecturer under the CAMM and I spoke on green mining like green mining whether oxymoron or opportunity and that was a great opportunity to go and speak to different CIM branches to talk about green mining and to really show the benefits of it and how even just little tweaking here and there can turn the process from one that's more to make a process greener and that you know the whole just messaging because in particularly in these economic times I think it's important that an initiative one that's green be seen also as one that can be also financially advantageous and not just one that's okay it's an environmental but it's going to be it's going to cost me I'm trying to see it show that kind of that dual fold benefit that for an industry that look there's a different way of doing things so let's know so moving forward with that we've also under that is now this new program for rare earth and chromite where we're trying to again apply green mining approaches to extraction and processing of rare earth and chromite so so with the rare earth the rare earth as I mentioned earlier extremely complex mineralogically and the processing metallurgies is probably doubly complex it's it's a very challenging puzzle each deposit is different than the next we don't have the same type of deposits as in China so our processing methods have to be different our environmental standards are far higher so we have to come up with new ways of doing the processing we have to not we can't be using the same reagents since we can't use the same processes we have to look at the radioactivity that's associated many many things that have to be done in order to develop our Canadian deposits here so it's a very challenging program and chromite similarly is an opportunity for us to develop a whole new industry that we've never seen in Canada and also a whole new region in the country where mining could take place with very high class world class resources such as chromite and they also have nickel as well so and you had said the country does have the potential to become the largest rare for rare well we have more deposits than anywhere else we also have the most in terms of the projects that are developing we have the most advantage projects we just don't have any connection so of course anytime in Canada the challenge it always is we have climate, our climate is a challenge costs of doing costs of mining in Canada is a challenge if you try to compete with other jurisdictions whether it be because of labor again energy costs for you know heat heating infrastructure is another challenge too and we're looking at developing these resources in areas where there is no infrastructure so there are challenges so even though we have extremely high high grade resources we have the right critical metals critical rare it's not necessarily going to be that easy plus again we have to look at developing the technology to be able to exploit them chromite is slightly more straightforward rare is not so it's certainly not a cakewalk that's why there is a great opportunity for Canada with its very rich metallurgical expertise to come together to try to address this issue and also to be able to secure that supply for Canada and other allied nations for very much strategic reasons or strategic applications as well as commercial and consumer applications if I'm not mistaken rare is rare is becoming more and more important and prominent in today's society could you tell us a few of the uses sure, well most people recognize that a lot of their lovely colors that come off their smartphones their blackberries and iPhones are a result of rare is so you don't get those vibrant colors from others metals often using rare is and that's one of the kind of more general consumer products so a lot of the electronics use the bears but more strategically and the production of magnets and those go into many applications such as looking at you know clean tech things like wind turbines hybrid vehicles we I think there's 20 kilos rare is in a promise and so it's a lot really when you look at the small quantities of rare is there's also medical applications and defense applications a lot of the missiles they require rare is again for very specific applications now other jurisdictions other countries who don't have the resources that we have do not have the raw resources are looking for substitutions because you know manufacturers just can't keep going on without saying there's no supply I don't have confirmed sustainable supply so yes other just jurisdictions are looking at different options they're looking at substitutions or recycling recycling is very very challenging post-consumer waste recycling of rare is because we just not there the the consumer products are designed in a way that makes recycling easy essentially so recycling something or other countries are looking at but it's not necessarily going to be something that's going to solve that that shortage in Canada we have the resources we've had some identify over 200 deposits and we have a number of advanced projects that we hope to see in each production in the next number of years like I said there's challenges with that and is there a projection of in years of when this could come to fruition and really be Canada could be a major producer well like each company has their own date for production you know a few years ago people were saying 2016 well we're 2016 doesn't happen yet 2020 is what I'm hearing now I think some of the country companies are getting close they're getting closer there's still a long way to go before you actually get a mine open so getting the process through getting all the different stages of the piloting done to go to the full scale it's a long way off but 2020 might be doable might be doable there are also other options to be able to look at rarers that may not necessarily use you know looking at constructing a mine we're looking at secondary sources of rarers so there are a number of places where rarers occur whether they be in certain types of mineways or agricultural byproducts the fertilizer industry byproducts we're looking for sources of them so that we don't have to necessarily go through extracting them from the ground then go into a full mining process so those are options too so again a lot of times it comes down to the processing and how we're going to get through there it was a very interesting very exciting file and very much enjoyed it I agree the next question is kind of a mouthful but it's a question we like to ask everybody we interview and it's really in your opinion kind of question so in your opinion are there any events people, inventions contributions, disasters anything really that pops into your head that must be mentioned when discussing the history of the natural resources in Canada and there's no wrong answer no, yeah it depends on how far back we go unfortunately what I think about is all the the negatives I think about the... I mean a negative could amount to positive changes I mean I think about things like a number of the tailings fields tailings accidents certainly those those may not be you know then up to the big change in terms of the discovery of the Ring of Fire but that could be another Sudbury what else in terms of technologies Canada has many contributions in terms of technologies I wouldn't say there's necessarily one more significance the other some of the the deeper mining that's taking place now some of the mines that even in the north I think now that we're seeing going in alternative energy applications at Ragland that's another good example I don't know I probably couldn't say people certainly there's a number of people who've made a huge contribution so yeah it's very good I should have researched that one just to add, yeah like I said it's a mouthful I'll just finish with two questions one is what are you proudest of in life and we can go more specifically what are you proudest of professionally professionally what am I proudest of that's probably another tough question for people I think a lot of us are very modest so it's difficult to say I think proudest my role in volunteering I think has been I'm proud of that I'm proud of being able to make a contribution that way scientifically I'm proud of the fact that I consider myself a pioneer in the whole sledge management area before that I don't think that that happened yeah those would be a couple of things personally if you go personally I often divide the question in half I ask in life and then I ask professionally those are good and one of my favorite ones last question is if you were talking to someone much younger like a student for example we had mentioned students and kids what would be your biggest piece of advice for most important life lesson you can give them in the future their careers well I would say I would tell them to try a career in the mining industry because it is it's a community of people that really care that it's a strong community it's a supportive community I would also tell them that they should need to put themselves out there get involved that's one of the things that my master's supervisor professor George Demopoulos told me when I graduated he he gave me this little book that I always remember being an engineer and this book like I still have it but it made a kind of a profound impact on me I don't know what else I just remember the one message was get involved find things to get involved I think that is a very good message that you know like you can sit back and wait for opportunities to come your way or you can look at everything as may not be the perfect fit for you but you're always going to learn from some experience so put yourself out there and get involved and it will lead to other opportunities and again and I think networking and community and I love this industry I just find that the people that I work with here as well as my network are an amazing group of people that personally and professionally and it's also typically Canadian I think it's kind of an underdog industry I like to root for the underdog and I think that there's a lot as we talked earlier there's a lot of value here and there's been a lot of contributions and we need to champion that and spread that message so I would encourage the certainly the younger demographic to get involved in this industry and there's something for everyone here whether you like to work in the cold north you like to work in the mill you like to work outside you like to work with paper you like to do finances there's something for everyone here and again the group of people that work in this industry are exceptional group of people very supportive of each other so it's welcoming it's kind of a place where you can feel that you feel home like you feel part of something and there's no end of things you can try and get involved with and that's very enriching challenges that's a rewarding part of your career is when you get to take on challenges thank you is there anything else you'd like to add? no I don't think so well thank you very much you're welcome finish right by two