 Excellent. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome everyone to generally irritable You're gonna wait for me for one second while I figure out what in the heck is wrong with my Facebook feed Do-do-do-do-do Do-do-do You're about to view Let's see As usual Everything was working fine until we went live. Why does that always happen Bethany? Why does that always happen? Tell me Murphy's law. Tell me why? So while I'm doing this Let's see. I had this happen before Let me see if I can get this to go again Do-do-do-do Why is it being silly Now we're gonna add it back in And we're gonna go now See I had to this happened last time the that it was it was silly I had to delete it out of the broadcast and then add it back in so we'll see if it works and there we go We're alive everywhere Hello Facebook YouTube, Twitch We're here generally irritable. I totally just started sweating too It might be this tea. I'm not certain maybe we'll set it aside here for a minute I'm really really really excited This evening to have my guest Bethany. It's Cyverson, right? Yeah, Cyverson Bethany Cyverson I said it correctly From expose. She's the executive director of expose an anti-trafficking organization And you do some other stuff too Bethany Why don't we start with a couple minutes of you letting the well, let me start with this so the Topic of conversation for this evening is whether or not prostitution is really a victimless crime Vermont right now is Look it has a bill in in in the legislature that they're considering that would start a committee to consider legalizing prostitution in the state of Vermont and Given you know, I you know that really sparked my interest when I heard that because we've had a couple of sex trafficking rings broken up in The Burlington area in the last couple of years two of them Wow, what is that ticking? It's still doing it. That's gonna make me crazy I'm gonna try not to let it distract me all But if you can hear that ticking that sounds like somebody typing or like static we tried to correct that before the broadcast Multiple headphones and things weren't working. I wonder if I just take this out. I'm just we're gonna try just using the speaker because it's really annoying and if we get an echo Then We'll come back to it. It's actually not letting me go back to the speakers, is it? Nope. Okay. Well, I guess I have to wear my headphones All right. Well, y'all will just have to deal with the ticking and so will I Do what you got me. Oh There's the test. Da-da-da. Okay. Can you still hear me Bethany? Yep. Okay. I can still hear you. Okay. We're good Um Man who wants to be my audio person? We need an audio person for the show But well, I'll try to ignore it. You guys ignore it too. So this bill I thought was fascinating because I really This is another one of those topics that I'm on the fence about Bethany you and I were talking before the show started about how I have I actually have a really good friend who is an escort and She is a person that you don't normally hear about in these conversations She she's not a drug addict. She she doesn't do drugs at all, you know, she'll have a drink occasionally But she's not a substance abuser And she really went into the business She started out doing pornography and then she said that the industry changed and she didn't like what was happening And so she turned to being an escort and she feels like it's empowering, right? But then I also know people because we've worked with Organizations that help fight sex trafficking. You hear all of these stories about women who and men boys girls who? you know our Are either drug addicts or vulnerable in some other way that Makes them susceptible to being coerced into into sex work and So it's and even my friend that's an escort would tell me stories about How the people that she worked with how many of them were drug addicts and how often people were committing suicide? And I just think Okay, this is one of those things that there's no cut-and-dry answer There's the there is the the Christian moral side of me that says, you know This isn't good for people and we need to you know Be careful about who we give ourselves to and and then there's the libertarian side of me that says well if it's a consensual relationship between two human or a Consensual transaction, you know, what's the problem with it? And so I really am torn between those two sides and I and I wanted to have you on Bethany Especially because I know the work that you do in helping rescue people from being trafficked and so you really see the the the seedy underbelly of sex work and how You know this this friend of mine is not is not the rule, right? She is the exception to the rule and so I really want to hear your experience in Helping people get out of it sharing your knowledge With you know, what it looks like when places legalized prostitution and sex work I know you're not too perfectly familiar with all of the bills in Vermont and all of that stuff But you've you know, you have experience with what that looks like and so so that's the setup you guys I've got Bethany here at per usual You guys all my listeners YouTube Facebook twitch Write questions in the chat Make sure if you have any questions for Bethany if you have any questions for me If there's any other information that you want to see me, you know add to the description later So we can look at it together You know, just write something in the chat. Let me know and Bethany if you would take a couple of minutes and Just describe yourself Describe who you are how you got into this and why it's so important to you All right. Thank you and thank you for having me on. I appreciate it. Yeah, so Yeah, my name is Bethany and I've been married 24 years. I have six kids ranging from 20 20 year old son down to twin identical twin boys that are five Everything in between So I'm pretty busy homeschooling the younger ones and Transporting the older ones that are in high school to a private school And then managing the ones that are you know adults and in college and stuff like that so that keeps me pretty busy and I got started in all of this Actually, I'll go back real quickly mentioned that I I did write a book has nothing to do with this topic whatsoever, but I Went through my own 14 years of infertility and seven miscarriages and then Years of trying to adopt with three failed adoptions and really felt like God wanted me to write a book to Just give people hope throughout that process. So if people are struggling in that process or I've had people from around the world Write me and tell me that they didn't struggle with it But their daughter struggles with it or their neighbor and that they read my book and it helped them to have much more sympathy and empathy for people that were their loved ones that are struggling with that and it helped them to know how to better talk to them and Care for care for and love them. So yeah, so Proud accomplishment. I'd never thought that I would be an author. So that was that's been kind of fun in the last year So what got me started on working in the anti-trafficking movement was because in 2007 We lived in a teeny tiny little town of 2,500 people and we at the time lived on a cul-de-sac street with only seven houses and In July of that year the FBI SWAT team five local police departments They all swarmed our tiny little street and descended on the house directly across the street from us and that house Had a man and a woman living there and they built that house together but they He was not the father of those children. They were all three her children from a previous relationship and She worked faithfully as a nurse third shift and when she was working as third shift He began raping and molesting her middle child who was 11 years old at the time And after a period of time kind of like drugs marijuana no longer satisfactory. You moved to something harder and harder To quickly speed through this horrific story He began recording himself doing that and uploading that to pedophile websites and then eventually Over the course of the two and a half years. He began driving her into Our state's capital and began selling her to other men And trafficking her and so this tiny tiny little body I look at my little girl who's 12 and I look at just the frailty and the innocence of her body And I I just you know, it makes me fight. It makes me fight as hard as I know how I was never trained in this never educated in any way, but I just as a mom. I just couldn't sit by and say That was a tragic story. That's really too bad I it just sickened me to the core and I said I will fight for the rest of my life to protect children and It has you know turned into the the realization because back then I didn't even know that I had a name called Trafficking and I didn't realize the the vast amount of people that it can affect it affects children It affects women. It affects men. It affects the lgbt community So I fight for all of these people now and to just protect them from Not just trafficking but any kind of sexual exploitation Yeah, that is like listening to you tell that story it's Whenever I hear stuff like this, it's so overwhelming I start to cry and I get angry Because it's it's like you said you have an 11 year old daughter and you know how small and fragile her body is And the fact that somebody could do this to a child um And to see the the escalation right so to go from being You know to go from just being I hate to say just being a rapist like Not to be dismissive right but to go from that to Oh, it would be a great. Oh now. I'm gonna just share it with everybody. First of all, how stupid do you have to be? I'm sorry. Like you have to be really stupid to record yourself doing something like that and then like not realize that Whatever and then and then further escalation to oh the good idea is to take her into town And you just go How did the mom not know? How did the girl not say anything? What about the siblings? And you just like how is it possible? For these things to go on undetected? Yeah, and they do all the time. There's a a really beautiful survivor out of um I always forget it's like one of the midwest states. It's illinois or ohio um But she was 15 when her trafficker started trafficking her. He um Brought her to a location Dropped her drink um took off her clothes Did things took photos and used those photos then to coerce her into Coming out of her bedroom window every night. So for two years this woman was trafficked this not woman this Grinder this child was trafficked um And he he ended up giving her a separate cell phone so that her parents couldn't you know track what was happening or anything and so And he said if you if you tell anybody I will show all of these photos to your parents I'm gonna I'm gonna plaster them all over your social media. I'm gonna plaster them throughout your high school And so fear and shame kept her going out every single night. It wasn't something she wanted to do She was traumatized beyond belief There was tragedy after tragedy that happened in her life at one point She decided that she was going to tell and he had made threats that he would Harm her family and harm her animals and he followed through on that He took stole her dog out of her front yard Killed the dog and chopped it up into pieces and delivered it to the her family's mailbox So this is a survivor and she does she does international work and speaks all around the world now Telling her story, but she's also created a really great foundation And a campaign that she calls soap which is an acronym Because she started asking herself, you know, when I was in between clients, what would have I wanted? What would have I needed to try to escape? And she thought about every time that she was in a hotel those little teeny tiny bars of soap in the bathroom um The trafficker would tell her that you have to clean up in between every client and so she would go in and you know have to tear open those bars of soap and so Now her campaign. Um, she goes across the country training um groups of people On how to run this soap campaign. So we've run this campaign multiple times in in my state and we've had success We've had we've had um young women who were being trafficked find the bars of soap I didn't finish explaining so on the back side of the bar of soap is the 1 800 trafficking number or it's 888 the 888 human trafficking Hotline number and so they would um, you know, if they were being trafficked They would be able to see that number and be able to call and get some help And so we've run that campaign multiple times in our in our state. Yeah, that's it right there. Yeah Well, I I'm assuming. Yeah. Yeah, so I can't see it super well, but yeah Teresa flores and she She created this out of her own tragedy out of her own personal trauma And we we have had uh success. We have had young girls come out of trafficking situations because they found that phone number Wow, that is amazing. That is absolutely amazing. Um, so Would you take a fan on for me, honey? He can't hear me. Hold on one second Honey So, okay, I'm like I'm trying to collect myself. I have so many questions and like I want to stay on topic um so It's oh, we're already getting some comments and some folks Uh tagging their friends in the in the comment section to come check out our conversation Um, and it's it's funny some of the member we were so Bethany and I were talking Before the program and she said who is your viewership and I said well it really stretches across Uh all over the all over the spectrum. I said, but I do have a lot of libertarian folks Um and a lot of christians a lot of conservatives So I said they're either going to be very anti or they're going to be very libertarian and you do you And it's it's funny because the comments are are highlighting that exactly what I said And I love what olga said especially Um decriminalized prostitution and we need to work better to protect those who are being trafficked against their will And I think that's I know what I said is you know when you have uh an industry Like this that is so rife and so susceptible to um You know just bad stuff bad guys people taking advantage of people being vulnerable and and all of that kind of stuff All that ticking is making me crazy babe. I don't know what i'm gonna do We got to do something before next time. Oh my god, you guys somebody needs to send me some legit headphones. Um So how do you Because there's there's a few things right so let's talk about what happens when when we're dealing with um Legalization and stuff like that. So one of the big uh, one of the big where am I gonna where can I find it? um So one of the things that I found really interesting when I was doing some research For the show today is and I and I knew this because my my my girlfriend. I'll call her j um my girlfriend said that this this uh anti trafficking law It's The anti trafficking law actually had a lot of unintended consequences a lot of negative unintended consequences in that It sort of drove prostitution deeper underground So whereas it used to be that uh her as an escort or Other folks that were escorts. Um Could you know do background checks on the Johns I don't know. What's the appropriate word nowadays is john's still an appropriate word. Yeah, I generally still use john's Okay, uh, so the johns they would be able to do background checks. They would be able to communicate with one another um They could Make sure that things were up and up and they could make them do like Testing and all this other stuff. Um, so this is a great article that talks a little bit about that. You know, she said The unfortunate consequence was it drove it deeper underground? And so you had people who instead of selling on these websites They're actually now on the street, which is more dangerous. They're not able to do background checks on the people that they're um transacting with And so you go, okay, so we're trying to do these laws to make it safer for people And that makes it worse you know, how is that possible and You know, of course, it makes some kind of sense, right like you you know, you realize, okay, this is a uh A way to make it safer for people But then you shared with me if we share with our audience bethany a little bit What your experience what you've seen happens to the community Uh, surrounding areas and things when prostitution is legalized when sex work is legalized so the only state in our country where Uh, prostitution is fully legalized right now is nevada. It isn't even in las vegas It's in the seven surrounding counties around las vegas Um, but it had also been legalized in rhoda island for I believe it was 19 years And rhoda island is um a fascinating case study on it because and I don't know all of their details and facts either But I work with a brilliant woman. Uh, phd researcher author of many many Studies and stuff like that named donna hues who works in rhoda island and lives in rhoda island brilliant brilliant woman but I work with her and and The the work she was a catalyst and helping to get it it um illegal again because the case study for in rhoda island was that prior to it being legalized There they or I should say after legalized what they saw was a huge increase in multiple things that there was a huge increase in Trafficking there was a huge increase in Drugs that came into the city. There was an increase in Violence towards women in That that happened after it was legalized. There was an increase in petty crime and robberies and things like that around Providence where it was legalized And there was just they saw an increase in in overall crime in their area and so And then also they were seeing you know along with the increase of trafficking. They were seeing that with with minors um, and then people would come um from out of state to um, you know by services with with Children and minors and you know and people that were not minors well So then you so it's like they so like one of the concerns about legalizing marijuana is that it's like drug tourism Right, and so this is like sex tourism destination, which is exactly what everybody knows of las vegas, right? Like what stays what happens in vegas stays in vegas and that isn't between two married consen- You know consenting adults that whole saying starts because they're that's exactly what they're talking about, you know and so um in in nevada the Violence against women and the murder rate against women is 60 percent higher And I don't memorize very I have a very bad memory in general, especially with numbers and stats Um, I usually have to have my stats in front of me. Um, but I can I can remember that one because it's so Um, just so sad and so awful. It is 60 percent higher than the next highest state, which is new york state 60 percent higher And that's why it can directly link that to the legalization of prostitution there Um, so because so you said harm or violence against women Right, did you say it was harm like violence against women or murder? I'm trying to remember exactly what you murder wow yeah so but they they um Have done studies on why that is and obviously it's it cut boils down to If men can go and buy Sex from women over and over again, and they begin to just see women as nothing more than a commodity Purchased. Yep Then it's kind of like well, what good are you to me? You're just something I purchase. I can slap you I can hit you. I can do whatever. Oh wow, and that may happen within the confines of that that transaction But that translates outside of that transaction There was another study done on eight 16 year old males So all minors and they they were super brave and I was I was really proud of them I don't know them. I wasn't a part of this. I just happened to see the video But I was just really proud that these boys would stand up and say this But they they were all talking about how they had this porn addiction And they were saying that because they have such an intense porn addiction Of course, this is slightly you know off the topic of of prostitution, but because they have this porn addiction They're constantly seeing women as just something to be used And so they the person doing the study and the interviewing asked each one of the boys at one point You know has having a porn addiction changed your view of the women around you Across the board every single 16 year old male that was asked There was eight of them. All of them said absolutely it has Made me have little respect for women. I don't respect their bodies. I don't respect that no is no But then the most The most tragic answer that was given was one one young boy and he started crying. He said Yeah, I I see women as Something to be used and when I look at a woman on on on the street And say a teenage girl is walking past me The only thing I think about now is how I want to rape her and he said before I had a porn addiction I never had thought that's a hurting women So now translate that back to the conversation of what's happening in Las Vegas or in Nevada When Women are only viewed as a commodity as something to be used and abused and thrown away when you're done with That's going to have an effect on the other women in your life or the other women that are surrounding you The woman the woman that walks down the street and you happen to see her So yeah, it has a huge effect. Well, and I know like, you know, it's You know sometimes It's hard to parse out the different Aspects of sex work, right? So you have porn you have prostitution escorts You know, there's kind of like different segments of it, but they really I don't know in my mind to me I lump them all together because you're getting paid to have sex like to me. It's all the same And there is study after study after study that tells us that pornography Changes the way that men and women see and relate to each other that the more pornography that you're exposed to The more um Oh, I want to be really careful with my words here, but you look for something even more I I don't want to use the word depraved because I don't want to sound like mean To people who have porn addiction because I what is it like 70% of men have porn addiction or something like that It's I I think it's larger than that. But again, I don't memorize stats and numbers Yeah, it's something really high like that It's like most men basically have a problem with porn and then a growing number of women do right right and then it says Oh, well because I watch women in porn Doing these acts and I'm trying to be careful. I don't know what's going to get me kicked off of facebook So I don't know what you're trying to be careful how much out Graphic I am But like I see them behaving this way towards women and so I think that that translates Into real life sex with a woman like I think a real woman wants to be treated that way, right? And it's actually super terrifying as a mother of daughters because I have to say what is going to eventually happen to my daughters, right if they Are dating a man and get married to a man or whatever who has a porn addiction And he is expecting to be able to choke and gag and electrocute and all of these Horrific things that are happening in today's pornography It's just it's terrifying as a as a parent to think about that Well, and would you you shared a story with me? a survivor that you've worked with who Um and forgive me feel free to correct me if I get this story wrong But if I recall correctly, she was being trafficked in nevada And that if they didn't get their Make their quota for the night that their punishment was that they were sent to the legal brothels in the back Yeah, yeah, and that that was their punishment. Yeah, so you can look up there. There are two women their survivors and I do I have worked with them and know them as acquaintances I know them because they're much bigger in the industry. They probably would not know me Remember me, but their names are rebecca bender and rebecca charleston And they were both trafficked through the legal The legal avenue in nevada and yet they are both they both talk about Their trafficking situation the the amount of abuse that they you know endure the amount of Control that their trafficker had and how exactly how you just said they were They tell stories about how if they hadn't met the quota that their trafficker was expecting That as a punishment, he would send them to the legal brothels and that it was much more traumatizing at the legal brothels And the legal brothels in their words are still being run by traffickers Um, it's just so wait what? Wait, so either I'm still being run by again according to um, you know their story This is not so wait. No way. Hold on bethany. So what you're telling me is That it's not good upstanding citizens running brothels that it's not Like your grandma down the street It's just it like that's what I feel like I've heard this with the drug conversation too That when you legalize marijuana as an example, you're not getting You know Joe schmoe your neighbor down the street opening a store You're getting drug dealers and traffickers and people who are already engaged in nefarious activities Because how else would they already know how to do all that stuff? Uh so I'm sorry. I interrupted it. Just like Of course. Yes. Yes, of course. Okay. Okay. Please continue not mom and pop It's not mom and pop who are are running these brothels Oh my gosh. Okay, so so the the One of the arguments is and this is when you when you told me that it was one of the things that sort of Just was like what how because you think One of the arguments, okay For legalizing prostitution is that you know, you take it out of the darkness and you put it into the light, right? Like, you know, instead of it being underground You can start dealing with the the shame and the and all of that stuff, right? And then women or men who are being trafficked or whatever instead of fearing prosecution They'll come forward and all that kind of stuff But that's not the experience of all the people that you've worked with It sounds like even though in Nevada it was legal and they could have come forward about the abuse they were Receiving in the brothels. They didn't Correct Yeah, they said they still aren't coming forward. There's there's so many facets from survivors that that you know have given testimony about their years stuck in trafficking about the the coercion and the Even the I'm blanking on the name The syndrome where Stockholm syndrome. Yeah Stockholm syndrome You know how even Stockholm syndrome sets in for some of these women, you know, they a lot of these Girls and women are coming and I know I spoke to you about this and are pretty kind of interview A month ago or whatever, but a lot of a lot of People that end up being trafficked or sexually exploited in any way are often in that situation out of Their own lives vulnerabilities Maybe they were a child of the foster care system Maybe they were a child that was sexually abused from much of their childhood. Maybe they were a child that just Maybe it wasn't as as tragic, but maybe they were just the children of the product of A family who was broken up through divorce There you know, I know a couple of survivors who it was it was literally that simple It was just their parents divorce and in that divorce it caused You know a breakdown in their family and shuffling back and forth and stuff like that But many of them it's much more severe than that. It comes from childhood parental drug addiction and substance abuse and sexual assault and Things like that and so you have these people that are already coming from a very vulnerable place in life Where they've already endured so much trauma It's really easy for a trafficker and for somebody who wants to exploit another human being to exploit them again because There's brokenness and we all have you know brokenness in us to some degree, right? Yeah, but the level of brokenness in somebody who's been sexually abused from the time They're three until they're seven or ten or whatever is very different than You know my my trauma of you know, my parents kind of raised me as a latchkey kid And I just got to run around around on my own in the 70s, right? Like right? I mean, yeah, some bad things happen to me, but that's very different than being sexually abused or having parents that You know burn me with cigarettes and and stole my piggy bank money to get more drugs, right? There's a vulnerability that happens in that kind of scenario that makes you very vulnerable to future things and So anyhow, there's just yeah in general It's not just women and men and children who are well, let's exclude children from that who are just You know very emotionally stable very emotionally grounded Without vulnerabilities who are walking into these situations So then in order to if you're coming from that kind of vulnerability and now you've been exploited It's very it's very hard for them to say, you know I'm I'm not at fault here Many of them come out and who who come out and talk later Will say I thought I was to blame I thought I caused this to happen This was all my fault Yeah, so they self load and they self blame And you know and a trafficker An exploiter is perfectly willing to continue exploiting even something like that and take advantage of that. Yeah, and isn't it? It is the highest sex trafficking human trafficking is Is it the highest grossing? Uh illegal activity now or it's it's quickly overtaking quickly rising I honestly don't know if it has hit the highest yet or not, but it's out there Yeah, it it's uh, it's it's multi-billion dollar Industry again. I I hate using numbers. I mean the numbers that you hear range from 32 billion to 50 to I think I've even heard a hundred which is why I hate giving numbers because It depends on where you read it Yeah, it's just really hard to track that kind of stuff and to know and from one agency to another You know federal agency and from one private organization nonprofit to another the numbers just vary But it it's an incredibly profitable if it's not the first it's the second it used to be the third I think it's not the third anymore. Yeah, I I seem to recall Because everything that I've heard about it, you know, it's this idea like you can only sell drugs one time if I have a Kilo of cocaine I can only sell that one time But I can sell a person over and over and over and over again and we have especially in you know Where we are today There's so many broken homes We are lacking in community Especially now with the last year with the depression and the drug abuse and the drug overdose We've seen an epidemic of heroin addiction um And all kinds of addictions across this country and so you have to just go okay, well It that makes people even more vulnerable. So you have all these people who are clearly miserable and depressed and lost And you know, we're seeing skyrocketing overdoses and suicides and so you just go There's so many more people now Who are going to be vulnerable to this? Um, as I mentioned earlier, we had two sex trafficking rings busted in Burlington One of them was people bringing heroin addicted girls women to places like New York City to be sold And you just go So even in our little tiny state now, I know you're from New Hampshire Bethany, but in our little state of Vermont We have bad people Knowing, you know six hours away in New York City four hours away in springfield mass or wherever it is They know they can come and find girls that they can take advantage of There's actually drug dealers and this is if you talk to police officers in Burlington, they'll tell you this They're not allowed to really talk about it in public Right, but it's happening These men will come from places like New York or Massachusetts or wherever They're criminals drug Dealers or or traffickers or whatever They'll come they'll make friends and manipulate some woman here and then they'll move into her apartment And then rope her into helping them with this whole process And it's actually a really big problem And so you're seeing out of state men Come here to take and to come to Vermont to take advantage of our our vulnerable people and And we are not allowed to talk about that because of the Color the the skin color of the people who are committing these crimes because if you say that then you're a racist You're not allowed to just tell the truth about what's happening and how unfortunate and sucky it is um But it's also like if you care so much about People of color and people that are vulnerable They're also being taken advantage of in traffic well among trafficked individuals Black black Black americans, uh, you know Make up the majority of that blacks and then hispanics make up the majority Of the majority is not white Of of people being trafficked people being trafficked. Yeah So there's some really just horrific Documentaries done by a really brilliant doctor um Out in colorado. I think it was and I do not remember the names The documentaries but I could I could try to find it for you and email it to you. That'd be awesome It's it's horrifically sad and awful to watch but she's a black doctor And she I think she's like a psychologist or something And this is what she's done is made her life study. Um, uh her life's work rather about the you know the epidemic of um Black people being trafficked and and it's it's just it's really sad. So yeah, it's people of other ethnic groups other than whites I mean, obviously whites are trafficked as well. Um, and um, but yeah, it overwhelmingly is uh blacks and hispanics That is in our country. Well, and especially if you think about I wonder And you may not know the answer to this but our illegal immigrants More likely to be trafficked than legal Immigrants like if we're talking about just strictly hispanic people. Do you know? Um, so I can I cannot answer that Okay with with a definitive answer But what I can say is It's very likely because they're coming from a place of vulnerability Even again, even if they've never um been raised in a bad home if they've never been sexually abused at all as a child But they're not gonna a country where they don't know the language. They don't have a job They don't have anything and now they're being told hey, you know, I have a modeling company. Why don't you come and model for me? Or hey, uh, you know, you can sell there was um that is I don't know if it's still current but um Some of those mall kiosks where they have the people standing in the middle. Um wanting to do your nails and sell Um lotions and stuff Um that that had been a trafficking ring not again. I'm not saying all across our whole country But it's at some level at some point that had been a trafficking ring And so you if if you ever paid attention if you knew this and you ever paid attention and you went to the mall and you got You know, um pursued by somebody at one of those little kiosks. They were all people from other countries they were never English speaking Americans that were working at these and so, you know, there were several busts on on these Little kiosks or really the you know, the larger organization. Yeah, because they were finding out that you know that these were labor trafficking rings so well, and that's one of the The sex trafficking rings in the Burlington area that got broken up was Asian people So they were bringing women over. I don't remember if it was china specifically Or vietnam or if it was just you know that part of asia. I don't remember exactly, but it was asian people Um, and it was that they were oh, you know come to america You know, we're gonna give you a job and everything is going to be great And then you get here on this visa and you're dependent on these people and they're like just kidding. Yeah Yeah, well, and that was the only um, when I first started doing this Work, I had talked to the attorney general the assistant attorney general of new hamshire and I asked them I said, why didn't you guys traffic or why didn't you? Charge my neighbor with trafficking and they said he was very clear Which is why I work and do a lot a lot of legislative stuff Here in new hamshire and why I'm help trying to help vermont on this particular bill But they said because in new hamshire, we just don't have strong enough laws to To get him put behind bars for as long as we think he needs to be put behind bars And he said so basically there's more than one way to skin a cat And so what they did is instead of charging him on trafficking laws They charged him on every single time he uploaded child porn to the web and what that allowed What that allowed them to do is to charge him for hundreds of counts of child porn producing child porn uploading child porn And so he's spending 40 life sentences in prison now Which is fantastic, right? He's good But we couldn't have gotten that the the attorney general the prosecutors could not have gotten that under new hamshare's laws at that time And so the laws at that time had only ever prosecuted one case of trafficking and it was an apple farm You know apple picking is huge up here in new england. I don't know if it is elsewhere But it certainly is here in new england And so we have these big apple farms and this married couple White couple was you know, upstanding community members huge huge apple farm very well known apple farm And they went down to jamaica and they Said hey, we're trying to hire, you know some guys to come and and help us run our apple farm in the fall And they had some guys and they said you can send money back to your family They got these three men up here and immediately took their passports from them, which is a known trafficking Like uh, it's in the it's in the playbook, right? It's like you get them get them here take their passports And then they can't leave and you know, so they did they took their passports And then after they took their passports, they made them live in a little shed in there in the back of the apple farm They dead bolted them into the shed every night. They made they didn't give them bedding or blankets or anything They just gave them hay to sleep on and it's new england in the fall. So it's cold at night And you have these poor men so finally they dug a hole through the bottom and one of them Found enough courage to like break through the hole crawl under the shed and run to the street That's the only prosecuted case we've ever had or at that time had ever had in in new hampshire because our laws just were not Solid enough. So that's why I try to encourage people find out what laws you have on the books in your state And if you're not satisfied with them, you know start talking to your senator start talking to your representative start making change Offer ideas like the age of consent. We just changed in new hampshire the age of consent It's a stepping stone. It's still horrific But our age of consent as of last legislative session was 13 Which means what if a if a child had been coerced into saying yes And that yes could legally be counted as well. She said yes At the age of 13 still a baby They now are legally not allowed to prosecute because that was that was the legal age of consent We just got it changed barely barely to age 15 And for us that was a win, but it's not a win. We just know that it's a stepping stone Okay, it's 15 now maybe in a couple more years. We can get it to 17 But we had to start somewhere because well our laws were so awful Well in california just lowered the age of consent. I know it's sickening I I I remember hearing that and being like what? By the same person who said That if you are knowingly infecting people with hiv you can't be prosecuted for it as a A murder. Yeah, so the same legislature legislator said, you know, you can knowingly infect people with hiv And it's not murder and oh by the way, you can have sex with a 13 year old. Yep I just it boggles the mind and actually it absolutely does and speaking of california actually this is a you mentioned something earlier, you know that um The advertisement for a modeling agency my husband and I lived in los angeles for a couple of years and um, we would go through like craigslist and You know some other stuff. He's a filmmaker actor stuntman and I was looking for opportunities to get involved in the film industry as well and So I can't tell you how many of those advertisements were there And how many stories I heard from people that we were friends with who Showed up to something that they thought was a gig And it wasn't it was just a porn or it was somebody trying to take advantage of them or whatever And so in especially in a place like california or los angeles where you have again, you have a bunch of vulnerable people, right? So You everybody goes out to la to be famous and To get their break and you know, whatever and so And it's expensive as all get out to live there. So if you're a Young woman who wants to make it in hollywood and you're broke and you've got nothing You know And then you show up to something that you think is a modeling gig and it's like no We're good. You know, oh, it's a porn and then you go well You know, what else am I gonna do? I'm broke. I need to eat. I need to eat. I need to pay my rent, you know, whatever and You know, I remember la is the largest producer of pornography in the world In the world. Yeah in la So it's it's crazy Where, you know, uh, so yeah Anyhow, it's just it's crazy That is wild. Well, and isn't anything does happen, right all the time Girls show up to these, you know, these What seem like legitimate ads to only be duped into something else But that happens even within the porn industry. I work with a survivor beautiful woman beautiful survivor and she had been She willingly walked into a porn, you know, the porn industry She walked into a company a well known porn producing company and She knew exactly what she was doing. She was okay with it And she walked in and she signed the contract and in within the contract. She had to say, you know These are the things i'm okay doing and these are the things i'm not okay doing And so she writes down the list of things that she was not okay with doing which were scenes of gang rape Sings scenes of double and triple penetration and things like that and she wrote, you know wrote those down The ink wasn't even dry on her contract and she's already performing her first scene And within the very first scene Many of the things that she said She did not want to happen to her were being happy or were being done to her She was being hit and abused. She was being gang raped all within the very first day of her contracted work with this porn company And she talks about the trauma that that that you know caused that that day caused her And so, um, she said that she did she ended up going home that day. She had, you know, she had Um, I believe she had tried substance abuse at some point or you know sub substances Um, but it was not did not have an addiction and she said she did go home and uh, you know Drown her trauma. Yeah, basically. Yeah. Yeah well, and that's what it's one of those things where you know the human Psyche is so funny, right? So you have this thing happen to you, right and and it you go in Willfully and you say well, I agreed to it You know, and then I didn't stop it or I didn't run away and therefore Uh, it's my fault It's my fault. Um, you know, I you know, I shouldn't have walked in there in the first place and so Well, you know, and then you try to tell yourself that it's not really rape or you know, whatever And you try to rationalize your brain around The trauma So that you can kind of put it in a box and deal with it, right? Yes, right and that's often where the drug abuse Addictions self harm Start A right and then B and then you go well Guess I'm already damaged and screwed up anyway, so I might as well just go back and do it again. Yeah. Yep And you hear that so much You know, it's like I feel like I hear me and here's the thing bethany So this is this is what this is one of the things that I was wrestling with when I was thinking about this and doing the research I go, okay, we hear the horror stories, right? We hear all the bad things that happen. We hear the survivors talk about this stuff that happens you don't You don't hear a lot of women Maybe I don't maybe I'm just maybe I'm just not looking in the right places who are like, you know what? I feel super empowered by this and this is me taking ownership of my body And this is you know, I grew up in a perfectly stable home and everything was fine and therefore You know, whatever So is it the the women who are in it? willfully without These emotional issues are they just not talking about it? Are they just not advocating for legalization of prostitution? What do you why do you think that is that? It are do they are they're just not enough of them or do they just Like to keep their nose clean Um, oh, I mean, I can't really speak for any of them, you know straight out, right, but I can say that statistically speaking there are far far far fewer of them than there are of those that are being exploited just I mean we have thousands thousands that collectively all the organizations across the country have worked with and You know and continue to pull survivors out of situations Where we know that that just isn't the case for the majority So you're really looking at a minority number In that kind of situation. Well, and that's even jay said I said, you know, can you give me an estimate? Did I say if I said this earlier forgive me, but I said What percentage of people that you worked with were sober and healthy like you Versus the people that were drug addicted and and committed suicide and she said She said, you know, honestly, I can't tell you that I wouldn't know But she said there's far fewer of me than there are of them Yeah, she did say that and I'm sorry if I interrupted you please if you were gonna say something No, I can't remember now Okay, all right. So this is just oh my god. It's just mind boggling. This is just a mind boggling conversation So so I don't want to talk to the whole empowering thing. Oh, yeah, please because This bill that's trying to pass not just in vermont, but I think it's at last legislative session Nationally, I think there were 15 states trying to pass this this law um New Hampshire tried passing it for three legislative sessions and they kind of left New Hampshire And we think uh what they did was they kind of said hey There's there's a small but fierce number of people in New Hampshire that are fighting this Um, let's go to vermont everything passes in vermont And once it passes in vermont, then it will be really easy to pass in The main in massachusetts and so we really think that that's kind of what their plan is There is a small group of pro prostitution women women that are um, maybe like your friend jay who are You know very much on board. This is what I want to do for a living and so they're paying They're either paying by Fourth broader coercion those women to come along and testify or those women are truly Like your friend and truly believe that this should be legalized and they're coming along and and testifying But there's a lot of money backing these bills And a lot of these small nonprofits like myself and many others just don't have the financial means to back this Oh, so wait, you mean Trafficking cartels Might have a vested interest in getting some people to go testify to the legislature on their behalf Yeah, and maybe not quoting anybody, but maybe possibly the pro marijuana group Oh my god, okay. All right. I'm sorry. I interrupted you again bethany. Please continue. Please continue. So um Oh, what was I saying though? So we have so whether so there there's some women they're coming and testifying that they're for it Yeah, you have um, you know a a small handful of women that that you know, believe that this is empowering But the problem is is that on the opposite side of this bill the opposite side of where I stand is that the the argument is that this is empowering to women to be able to sell their bodies and to be able to do what they want with their bodies the problem with that argument and why it is so fundamentally flawed is because What we've already talked about is the fact that the number of women and children and men and people in the lgbt community and stuff like that the number of those people that are being exploited who are Doing this on their own and they're perfectly healthy and they are they're They're not right. You can't yeah exploited and perfectly healthy doing this on their own And so if you're being exploited Which we know is the vast majority of these people that are that are being prostituted and put into pornography And sold online and all this different kind of stuff if you're being exploited How how on earth can that be empowering when one man? Is controlling you and your body because he has purchased you with his with his dollars That's not empowering on any level. That's not empowering for women For men for people in the lgbt community people of different ethnic groups That is not empowering in the and that's why it's so fundamentally flawed and why I feel so passionate about it Is because the other side really wants to have people believe That this is empowering for people But they're missing the fact that the majority of the people the majority. I'm not talking about your friend j I'm talking about the vast majority of the people that are being bought and sold Are people who are being exploited people that are being trafficked or sexually exploited in some way For some reason or another maybe they need drug money Maybe whatever it is, but they're being exploited and at the end of the day The core of that exploitation is not empowering. Yeah, it leads to death and suicide It leads to mental mental health issues. It leads to trauma It leads to years of counseling if they should ever get out There's no there's nothing empowering about that. Yeah Well, and that's one of the things I find super funny about I want to be careful because I we're having a really deep Thoughtful conversation and I hate to turn it to the actual bill itself and how stupid Our legislators are framing this and I I'm not supposed to talk like that about people but when I read the bill If I hold on I'm going to share my screen here I read the bill and It talks about You know, it says here the Majority of Vermont laws on prostitution were adopted More than a hundred years ago and it was to prosecute black men in relationships with white women Which is just an absolute lie. It is it is a 100% a lie Did that happen? Possibly potentially. I'm not saying that it didn't but this idea that That Laws against prostitution. Oops. I didn't realize it and hadn't shared my screen yet. There we go So that the laws against prostitution Were actually pushed forward By feminists By the suffragettes So they knew if you look up historically So yeah, so this bill says that um, the reason for the prostitution laws was because they wanted to to prosecute black men for Men of color for having relationships with white women And that this is uh to fight white slave traffic, which is just A disgusting and irresponsible and dishonest characterization of why prostitution laws came into being in this country. So when we So back in the day, right like the 18th century or whatever it is. Wow, that was really skipping this one um When women were fighting more for their rights and for the right to vote and to be Better In regard to the law They actually railed against prostitution because they saw that men Or they were experiencing men treating them as um as objects And so I tunes need your attention. Oh I'm sorry. That was mine. I had to take my phone and it's about ready to die So my computer's not talking to me Okay, I was like, wait, where did that come from? um So you had so this so so right so the early feminists will call them the suffragettes, right? So the suffragettes fought against prostitution to have it made illegal So that men would be more respectful So to increase their status in society so that they wouldn't just be treated as objects and basically slaves Or you know being used and abused, right and now Our current day feminists Are saying we'll call them feminists, right? So suffragettes feminists are saying that it's empowering to be able to Sell yourself as a commodity and I think Like We're talking about the same exact topic And these women said we want it to be illegal because we're being mistreated and these women are saying We want it to be legal so we can do what we want with our bodies and be empowered how I can't even Reconcile that in my brain. How can the same topic have a have that differentiation like that It's yeah, I mean, I think many of us within this industry fighting against this struggle with the same, you know, the same question. It's it's it's crazy to think that The opposing side thinks that this is empowering for women It's it's not on any level empowering for women I laughed so hard. I had this moment because I've always thought of myself I had always thought of myself as a feminist Always had thought of myself as a feminist and then one day I remember I was thinking about this kind of topic this stuff And I realized that women have absolutely been bamboozled and I'm sure I'm going to get crap for this but Who's the guy the the guy that started hustler Larry flint. Yeah, I think it's Larry flint, right? He was the guy who did hustler and he went through Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then he went through the supreme court and all this stuff and that it was free speech and that it was empowering and Right, and this is like women. We're empowered and we're gonna burn our bras We're gonna run around with our shirt off and we're gonna have sex with whoever we want and we're gonna You know have abortion so we don't have to worry about pregnancy. We're gonna do and I go That's you saying that you're empowered But that's actually just you giving men exactly what they want Without the responsibility of the natural outcome of the act I was like, we're so dumb. Oh my god. Like why like that is not empowering that is not empowering We're just get we're literally just you know, I remember hearing all these expressions Like why buy the cow when you can have the milk for free and stuff like that And I just remember thinking like oh, whatever, you know, because I was young and I bought the lie You know, oh promiscuous sex makes me super empowered and oh look at me and it's like I'm not manipulating guys I'm not getting what I want I'm just giving them what they want And what am I getting out of it? Like a few minutes of pleasure Great What good does that do me? Yeah, that's by the way is not what Women that are being trafficked women and children men That they're not even getting that No, and that's so you're like it's I feel like The foundation of this conversation is a lie right the foundation for the legalization of prostitution the foundation for You know all of this stuff saying that it's okay And that we should just be able to have whatever transactional relationship with we want with whoever it takes away the reality of the intimacy of the act of sex and and When we have a culture That doesn't value the human body and it doesn't value our Sanct the sanctity of the human being itself Right like our culture does not value the sanctity of human life. It doesn't. No, right? It doesn't in any form We it doesn't matter. You're just uh a clump of cells Whether you're an unborn baby or you're a human being You know the soul doesn't matter and you know, we're just here to you know FOMO and FOLO or whatever all those stupid acronyms are, you know, just go live your life and have fun and everything's great, right? this idea that There is no consequence for those behaviors and I think that that dehumanization Of the human being and the human spirit to begin with Is what sort of allows us to arrive at this place? Where we can just use people And abuse people Yeah, very much so Hmm, that's a great note to end on. Um You know, so let me uh, let me talk about the bill then. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the bill is um Well in last legislative session, it was house bill 568 and 569 568 was a study bill Well, it was a bill to to do a study on what, you know What are the ramifications of legalizing prostitution and fully decriminalizing it 569 Was the full legalization and decriminalization of prostitution in Vermont So that we know of so far Um, the second bill has not been introduced that doesn't mean that it isn't going to be and it doesn't mean that it It isn't Somewhere on somebody's docket. I'm not um Super familiar with how all of this works. Um, yeah, but we do know that 568 and I I think Might have it's a different number now. Um I generally from session to session if it didn't pass it gets a different number But we do know that that study bill is back out and um, it will be voted on Yeah, and so this study bill that's typically if if a bill happens to be particularly egregious They will throw a study bill in front of it and they'll say we're just gonna study it It's just we're gonna look at see how it goes and everything But the full intention is that the study is is Going to go in the favor of the direction that they wanted to go in anyway And that's exactly what we see and know of Of house bill 568 because we know that some of the people who are already on the committee for the study bill Are like the head of the aclu and the head of the lgbt community in remand and there are people who um You know have an agenda to see this pass for for whatever reason, right? Yeah, and so We know that the study bill is Unless there's just fears fears Opposition. Yeah opposition. We know that the study bill will pass and and what will be so tragic about its passing Is that it really The entire intent was really just to pave the way For the past 569. Yes. That's we saw that with cannabis. We saw that with tons of other bills Yeah, yes, if we see If we allow 568 to get passed in vermont if we don't Rise up and and raise our voices in opposition of 568 569 will pass almost definitely so as vermonters and i'm not a vermonter But i've been working for the last year and a half year and a quarter year and a half To help vermonters not pass these bills. Um, so Yeah, and so this year this year it's house bill 268 So anybody who's listening if you this is the this is the bill to do the study Right and so I would be I would almost support decriminalization of Prostitution I would almost support that As long as we didn't then create a marketplace and do all that other stuff Because I want people to feel safe coming forward and asking for help Without the fear of being of going to jail. So the problem with Fully legalizing and decriminalizing. Yeah. Yeah, even if you're even if you're somewhat on board for it for women The problem is is that In the end of this bill 569 it legalizes every single aspect of prostitution. So it legalizes um Legal brothels in your tiny little neighborhood say you live on the same cul-de-sac street that I live on right Seven houses eight houses My next-door neighbor could be running a legal brothel while my six kids are running around in my backyard playing and having a good time dude You can't even have a strip club in vermont. You can't even have a strip club and we're gonna brothels Right and all of that would be legal. So you'll have legal street walking. You'll have Um, all of this kind of stuff. So in in nevada what we know What we see what we know is going on is that you have state legislators that are are pimps totally legal they're now running so nevada has a um A parade every year and guess who's allowed to be in the parade The pimps with all of his prostitutes Scansley clad sitting on the top of the convertible Do you know what else is also legal in nevada, which will be legal in vermont if if these bills pass If your child has career day guess who's legally allowed to go to your child's elementary school and tout tout his career Pimps It will be fully legal to be able to go to the elementary school Or the high school junior high and say hey, this is what I do for a living And you know and we need some new people and and that's literally what's happening in nevada They're they're recruiting from the schools when career day happens all of the like every aspect of prostitution becomes legalized It's like people just don't understand the full ramifications of what full legalization and full decriminalization does Oh my god, we're only gonna talk about from the other side how empowering it is for women We're not gonna tell them all of the really bad negative things that will come along with that Oh my god, this is making my brain hurt. Oh my god, uh Olga said homeschool Yes, uh, but yeah that for a lot of reasons homeschool. Yes, exactly Oh my god, this is just making my brain hurt. Oh my god. Okay, and this is the thing. This is I got so angry I can't remember if it was this it was this last summer the aclu of ramon came out with a report or their recommendations and they said in order to address the The the representation in our prison system of people of color so in order to deal with the fact that we have Disproportionate number of black people or not white people in prison in vermont that we needed to decriminalize writing bad checks uh trespassing um, there was a bunch of other stuff and Uh sex work decriminalized sex work and I said I said oh so the aclu Doesn't think black people can get along in the state of vermont unless they can steal uh trespass and be pimps and hoes And I just remember being so angry Reading it and thinking to myself This is some of the most racist Stuff I have ever read in my entire life But we can't call it racism I What else is it if you say that black people can't get by in vermont unless they can Commit crimes. I know it's it's tragic. It's tragic. It makes me see. This is why like I believe they can I believe black people are better than crime and prostitution and And you know all that stuff, but it is it is an incredibly racist thing to say that I You can't goodbye unless unless all these things are happening And that's what like they can't be doctored like my husband. My husband is a filmmaker But in vermont, I guess he needs to be able to be a pimp or steal from people in order to get by and it's like Why would you say that about people? Right? You know and now you're saying that like prostitution laws are racist and that's why we're going to overturn them. I would I I wouldn't be as offended by this bill if it didn't start by saying It's racist Yeah, you know and then you just go It's just more and more of this stuff and then i'm hearing you talk about What the experience is for places like rhod Island and nevada where they're you know, they're showing up to career day and they're going on uh Parades and the crime rises and all this other stuff and you just say to yourself What what is the percentage and I know you I'm sure you don't know the answer to this But it's a rhetorical question. What is the percentage of people who are helped? By legalizing prostitution versus the number of people who are harmed By legalizing prostitution So I don't I know that that was a rhetorical question, but it prompted something in my brain Yeah, um to say that another another negative aspect of of these bills Is that currently As bills are written it takes away um exit strategies for For people that are being sexually exploited and trafficked Um, it it lessens the amount of money that goes towards women And children and men who are who are trying to leave and trying to get out Um, there are just less exit strategies those of us fighting um for an alternative method for um for Bill, you know, there's a handful of bills and I don't want to name them or not bills There's a handful of models and I don't want to name them because there's there's several of them out there right now But they're they're models being Drawn up and made by survivors and by people who are working to protect people You know to protect people that are being prostituted and exploited and in though in those models There's a tremendous amount of exit strategy services Or exit exit services For people that are trying to leave and get out of the game get out of the life get out You know for their life any any words you want to use and put in there But there's a tremendous amount of exit strategies what you'll notice in these bills There isn't that It they don't really care about the exit strategies. It's like it's Not even a thought for them at all because it's very empowering for women. So why would we need exit? I It's crazy. It's really sad. It's really sad. Okay. Wait. I need a second to okay. Hold on. I gotta go like Okay, so just really curious though, why don't you want to name the models? You said there's things being drawn up. Yeah, I mean I can like one is called the equality equality model There's just there's so many and they're in the the variations in them are okay But not not everybody with it our industry the anti-trafficking movement. We just haven't all settled on one model So, okay, you know, I don't want to like But whatever so okay, so there's not like you're trying to protect people or protect the outcome or something like that Which model is the best? There's the Nordic model the Swedish model the equality model the Oh Something Act now model or something like that. I forget another one But there are several and they're all pretty similar But there's just there's minutiae within each one that's slightly different and and just as an industry We haven't settled on it and I kind of wish we would but you know It's there's a good and a bad that 12 years ago when I was doing this there weren't many people doing this And in the 12 years that I've been doing it We there's a huge influx of passionate people that care deeply about this Um globally and even you know here in the united states and with that passion comes a lot of really brilliant minds And a lot of minds that want to see really beautiful and positive change But you have a pocket of minds over here and a pocket of minds, you know Like the swedish and then the norwegian and then but you know, so it's just yeah They're good models. They're just not you know, there's There's minutiae and change in in each one. Nothing bad. No, that makes sense. Okay. So, um Okay, this is so funny so When okay, Olga said when are public hearings on this study bill? We need bethany You don't happen to know when they're if they've scheduled a hearing for this yet. Do you I don't think so my contact in Um in vermont her name is maggie. Um, she usually lets me know when when hearings on bills like this are coming up And I haven't heard from her. Okay. Um, but we do have um I I work with um A really really incredible organization called the national center on sexual exploitation They're out of washington dc, but they have members that are in new england and so um and We've created a new england based organization called niece new englanders against sexual exploitation And you can you can you know go to either one of those websites and so within new england we have chairs from each state Who represent each one of those states and then we have lobbyists and and activists from each state as well that That are that belong to niece and so One of the women who um is a brilliant mind in In working for the national center on sexual sexual exploitation She um lives in connecticut and has connections in connecticut and so she's going to be able to testify at the hearing um In in vermont, um, which she really is the one who should be testifying. She's a brilliant mind. She's um Yeah, she's her name's elinor and she's brilliant. That's amazing. So I just policy writer for the for nicozi I'm going to connect you with olga because she says I want to have bi-weekly talk with her to learn how to hand help You know her mind is blown and I really feel like you know My husband and I like I don't I didn't know it was a thing I didn't know that trafficking period sex or otherwise I didn't even know it was a thing until we were at church one day and one of our church members Do you remember the name of that organization? He worked for we donated to them for a while On a monthly basis But he was working with the the couple was working with this organization that was finding trafficking and And he was like There are so many people who don't even know this is happening You know and so when he said that you've been working on this for 12 years And I think I just heard about it like four years ago by and I'm pretty And I would consider myself a pretty informed person Like I'm pretty involved in politics and I pay attention and I watch the news and I read the paper and magazines and all that stuff and I'm like You've been at this for 12 years and I just heard about it like five minutes ago. Yeah. How is this not? Being blasted from Speakers all over the place to help people. I mean I think and I know that's somewhat of a rhetorical question but I think the truthful answer is because um people don't want to talk about it, right if If we talked about earlier the the percentage of men and even growing number of women that are addicted to pornography, right now If I try to do a conference and I have the title anything to do with pornography My attendance is way down in the gutter. I could have 30 attendees If I do a conversation and I title it, you know, um Um Protecting women and children from from exploitation not even don't even say a sexual yeah from just exploitation You know something like that. I don't I don't use the word sex. I don't use the word porn My attendance can be at you know 100 200. Um, it's it's crazy even though Literally my slide deck might be the exact same slides and the information will be the same But just getting people to come and have the conversation is just really challenging and I think because there's so much Um At the core of the human being there's so much shame and guilt tied to um pornography addiction Yes, you have those people that just truly don't care and they just they really just see Um pornography and buying buying another human being for sexual Gratification as a right of passage, right? It's just the way of life. It is what you do Yeah, but I really do believe that the core of the human being We know that innately that it is it's not right and so There's there's a level of Shame and a little level of I don't want to be told what I'm doing is wrong I don't want to be I don't want to have to hear from some goody two shoes that this is, you know, wrong or whatever Yeah, and so the conversation is really really hard to get started Now you can start the conversation um about Trafficking a little bit easier um because I think people if they think about the movie taken right which is such a of Horrific example of trafficking because that's not what trafficking looks like in the united states at all The the most common form of trafficking now occurs in the united states in the in the form of Teenagers on social media It is our teens on social media it is um Our teenage children who have given full access to every pervert on the internet to their account Who now can private message them and tell them all kinds of lies and they're they're brilliantly minded people They're they're dumb as heck, but they're brilliantly minded and knowing how to manipulate capture a vulnerable person So they they they start talking to them in just casual conversation. Hey, what did you do today? You know blah blah blah well I got in a fight with my parents and then they latch on to that vulnerability But what did what was the fight about? Oh, yeah, that's so stupid You know if if you wanted a place to live you can come and live here. I'll take care of you I'll pay for all your things It's as simple as that and you have children in good homes that are choosing to You know leave their home in the middle of the night to go meet up with a man that they've never met Who they think might be a 14 year old boy or a 13 year old girl Or maybe they even believe that it's a 21 year old man But who's going to love them and protect them and not have rules and not have boundaries And that in fact that it's completely opposite that person has nothing but ill intended You know has no nothing but ill ill ill intentions for that person And so that is the most common form of of trafficking that we see in america It isn't the kidnapping off the street and abducting and and pushing into sex rings These kids are pushed into sex rings, but it is it starts through social media. Yeah, that is the number one Conference that I put on is teaching parents and children safe social media usage because it's just it's terrifying I'm so tempted to make so many jokes and snarky remarks right now, but it's so serious a topic I feel like I like I'll just say it like in the and we want to give these people Voting we want them to vote They eat tide pods They make themselves like these are these are kids They don't know what they're doing. They make terrible decisions. Yeah, like I don't know about you, but when I was I was a pretty good teenager You know, I wasn't getting into all kinds of trouble and I still look back sometimes I go. Oh my god How did I make it out alive? Yeah, how about my friends all the dumb stuff that we did? Yep, I think the same thing and and like you I was in general a fairly good kid I didn't get into drugs or alcohol But we went through this choking each other to pass out phase and I'm like gosh, that was so Dangerous and horrible. What if we do that? What are we doing? Oh my god? And so it's like so they just know it's like you said they're they're terrible people So you don't want to give them kudos for being smart but you know Yeah, I've been in prison And I remember thinking to myself You know for people who don't know my story, you know I'm a recovering addict and I got in trouble related to my drug addiction So I spent some time in in prison 15 years ago and I just remember like if The women that I was in prison with Took the ingenuity that they used to get contraband Into the prison right to do something good with their lives Our world would be a much different place And because they do they figure out how to manipulate people they figure out the best ways to manipulate people And they go for it. Yeah Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, it has been so wonderful to talk to you Bethany It has just been an absolute delight Thank you for sharing your experience and your stories and your information There are tons and tons and tons of comments And questions people engaging in this conversation. So that is amazing This is clearly something that really touches everyone This affects all of us whether it's You know you who suddenly found out that your neighbor was doing this crazy thing or it's our You know our spouse or our our friend that has a pornography addiction or it's our uncle or Who is a drug addict and has become vulnerable like these conversations affect all of us and I think Almost always when I'm talking to people about what is wrong with the world and how to fix it The solution is be in community with one another Be responsible to your neighbors Be responsible to your family to your siblings to your to your parents to your cousins to your neighbors Care about people get out of your house and knock on somebody's door and say hello Well, I mean that's kind of creepy considering what we're talking about right now, but you get my point like Be in your community And show up for people and let them know that you care So that You know if somebody out there is being trafficked or is being exploited They might just know one person who acted like they gave enough of a crap about them That they might just come to you for help. Yeah Yeah This is kind of a totally off topic, but I watched this really beautiful video It's on youtube of a young man who was going to commit suicide off the san francisco bridge and the golden gate bridge and he he you know was young 18 I think at the time and he was riding the bus and he was just crying the whole way there And he he just he said I didn't really believe in god, but I just was like Saying god if anybody if if one person just shows that they care Then I won't do this and he said not one single person on the bus said a single thing like son Are you okay? What what's wrong? Are you hurting and he said in fact Two guys turned around and they were friends and they mocked me and they made fun of me He said so when the bus stopped just short of the san francisco bridge the golden gate bridge I got off and I ran and I just leapt over the over the over the bridge And you know the rest of the story is really beautiful, but to to go back and And just kind of reiterate what you just said. I mean when we just show Love and compassion and you know for me I'm a christian and and that it just comes when you know the love of the father when you know that Everything that god has done for you. He's he's given up his his son for for us for no matter what we do No matter what happens. He's given so much love towards us and if we can only just give a fraction of that love To the people around us the difference that that can make in this world Yeah, that it's just it Yeah, the son came to show the heart of the father Yeah, you know and that unconditional love that jesus showed to everyone that he encountered You know whether like people don't realize they oh he he had a tax collector who followed him like they were the scum of the earth Yep In jesus's time. Yeah the absolute scum of the earth and prostitutes Tax collectors it didn't matter the love Because when you can see through what a person does To who they are in their soul and that they are I mean that's that that's sanctity of the human spirit You know you have we have to look through People's actions and words to remember who they are as a human being Yep, and then maybe we can we can And that's what brings me To this work day to day I I think about the dignity of every single human being And people like your friend j may be the anomaly they may be you know the the few But I think about the dignity of all of the people who don't want to be doing this And they have purpose in life and they have dignity and I will fight for their dignity Even if they can't fight for their dignity themselves. I will fight for it and so many of us Fighting in this industry for their dignity are doing that day to day Oh my god, I love it Bethany would you tell everyone the best way if they want to get in touch with you Or to get involved with what you're doing or how to find out more Would you tell everybody like the best way to kind of get involved and how they can reach out to you If they have any questions or how they can help Yeah, so to get involved Gosh, there's so many ways you can get involved with your your legislators in your own state And the best way to do that is to just become friends with them It doesn't matter if they're on your side or not just become friends with the people that serve you and your Your your district your ward Take them out to lunch with no agenda So that's a really super easy way because then you built a relationship And when it's time for something that matters a bill that really matters You have relationship with them you have ground to stand on and they'll hopefully respect you as a person to say I may disagree, but I respect you as a person enough to listen to your point on this That's a really easy way to get involved find out what your laws are in your state other ways Obviously you can contact me And you don't have to I you don't have to get involved with anything with me But I can connect you with dozens and dozens of organizations throughout the country The one that I would recommend the the most would be the national center on sexual exploitation Yeah, there's not a lot that you can do Physically do to help them, but they if you're looking for a place to donate they are a powerhouse They just in the last few weeks brought the very first lawsuit against Mindgeek which mindgeek is the parent company that owns porn hub and porn hub has been facilitating child sexual abuse and rape and assault on their on their On that website porn hub for years and years and and the The victims have been begging porn hub to take it down and they haven't so nicozi is Just filed their very first lawsuit. They filed their first lawsuit against twitter a young 15 year old boy We heard about that. Yeah was seduced by a grown adult man who he thought he was talking to another teenager Long story short, there was a lot of child pornography in that and it was uploaded to twitter and twitter said No, my problem. We're not taking it down. It doesn't violate our our code And so nicozi just filed a lawsuit against them. Nicozi is doing amazing and they're not just a lot They do tons of policy stuff. That's they started out as a policy organization Anti trafficking policy organization, but they just opened up a law center one year ago And they are kicking down the doors with survivors. It's incredible. That is amazing So you can reach me through my email address Which is expose expo se 7676 at gmail.com. Okay, you can also go to my website, which is expose online.org Yeah expose online.org And you also can be hired as a speaker You like you said you're an author you're a speaker So if people want to Have you come speak to maybe their church or their civic organization? Like a lions club or like a rotary or something like that. Yep. They can hire you for that all the time Yep, do it matter of fact in the last I don't know maybe four months with my connection in vermont maggie She's gotten me into Gosh, probably six places to speak on tv, you know tv and radio things in civic Uh council council meetings here. Yep here. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I got a message from her I don't remember if it was on facebook or if she found my email I don't remember how she found me but she was like you need to talk to matthony and I was like, yes She's been a powerhouse advocate in vermont for me. So I I I I appreciate her tremendously Oh my god, so awesome. And then everybody who is listening Bill so currently in this legislative session it's bill h268 it is um H268 is looking at the uh Decriminalizing and doing the study and um And all of that stuff. So make sure you reach out to your legislators I don't we don't know where is in the process yet. So it's it's a house the h means it's in the house So contact your reps for sure. Um, I always contact my senators as well You can go to The you can go to the legislate it's legislature dot vermont dot gov You can find all the bills. You can find all your legislators Uh, and I probably I probably should look into this organization before I promote them, but there's this website called common cause dot org I this is not an endorsement. I have no idea what they do do not hold it against me But you can go to common cause dot org slash find your representative And it gives you everyone who is elected that represents you so when I type in my address It not only gives me my president, you know, my president the president and um And my legislators, you know, like lehi and sanders and and welsh It also is I mean it goes all the way down to my city council So it tells you everybody so go there find out who your reps are message them their emails are online at vermont legislature dot vermont dot org is that what I said Wait, where'd it go? legislature dot vermont dot gov Um get involved do something anything Yes Anything one thing be involved stay involved Go say hello to your neighbors And that's what we've got for you this evening Bethany hold on with me one second while I end the live stream And thank you everybody for watching. Thank you for joining us for this conversation Thank you for your questions and comments Make sure to share this content, uh, you know the more we can get In front of the eyeballs of your friends and neighbors the more people we can influence and so You know comment like share if you're on youtube subscribe and share Because the more engagement we get the more the social media platforms will Boost our content to share it to people who matter and who really need to hear this information So thank you for your support. Thank you again, Bethany for being here and have a good night everybody Oh, where's my where's my doohickey? Okay?