 Thank you and welcome. This is the Education Committee in the Vermont House of Representatives on January 25th. And we are delighted to hear from Jay Ramsey. We have asked him to kind of give us an overview of career and tech centers. And I know that there will be questions, but just give us just an idea on how they're set up. I think you might have had some questions about how they're funded. And I think there were a few other questions that we have. Let's just give you the floor. Jay Ramsey from the Agency of Education. I am an Assistant Division Director in the Student Pathways Division. That's the division that oversees the implementation of Act 77, personalized learning plans and includes career technical education and adult education and literacy. And those last two are the teams that I provide support to. So I'm used to be the State CTE Director. I served in that role for five years and I work closely with our current State CTE Director and I'm happy to answer any questions you have. So I'm gonna give a little bit of an overview. We might call it the CTE 101 presentation. So I'm gonna pretend like I'm a high school student from any area in the state. And it doesn't matter what my zip code is, it doesn't matter where I live, I have access to a technical center. Okay, this system was designed, I'm gonna give you a history lesson too. It was designed post World War II in 1948 and it became a reality in the 60s. In the 40s, every high school offered some sort of vocational program and the state determined at that time it would be better if for the smaller high schools, if we could consolidate and centralize some offerings. So the tech centers were built, they're generally attached to the largest high school in the service region. I think there are 14 regions of the state. There are 17 technical centers. Chinden County is served by two technical centers, the Burlington Technical Center, which is without a facility, they're doing a great job of having the programs out in the community. It's hard for them to maintain that. And then there's the Center for Technology in Essex. In the Northeast Kingdom, in what our map calls the St. Johnsbury region, there's two centers, but they're housed at independent schools. And you might have heard independent and technical education used in a couple of different ways. I'm gonna try to clarify it. St. Johnsbury Academy and Linden Institute are independent schools in that region and they host state approved programs. And they're available to students throughout the region whether they are enrolled at St. Johnsbury Academy and Linden Institute or not. In terms of a structure of governance, we have three structures of governance in the CTE system. One structure I would call the common structure is where the, for lack of a better word, the host high school, the high school that is attached to the technical center is the entity that's responsible for the operation of the center and its budget and its facilities and then teacher contracts so on and so forth. There's 12 of those. So Burlington Technical Center is hosted by and operated by Burlington School District. Center for Technology is operated by Essex Westford. The next type of governance structure is the Regional Technical Center School District structure. And there are three of those, Middlebury in Springfield and in Bennington. And the director at that center is also the superintendent and it's responsible for, generally I'm responsible for its own facility. Sometimes they're paying a fee. For instance, in Springfield, they as part of the Howard Dean Educational Center, they pay a fee to be in that space. They have their own contracts for their teachers. So they're operating a little bit more independently than some of the other technical centers. And then the third version is the private schools or the independent schools that are hosting state approved programs, okay? And then another level on the system is the delivery model for the programs. So we have centers that, let's see, five centers offer programs in an all day model. So if I'm a student in Barrie, I'm going to attend the Central Vermont Career Center there an all day program. So rather than go to my home high school, get on a bus, go to the tech center, I'm just going directly to the tech center. And I'm there in this model for roughly four hours, that's all day. And I'm going for a full year to complete my program. I could come back, if I go in my junior year, I could come back in my senior year and participate in a different program, or I might participate in a co-op program, which means that I'm going out on a job site instead of coming to school. And I'm getting credit for that experience on the job site and I'm getting paid usually for that. All of the other centers are offering a part day or a half time model. So that commitment to me as a student means my junior year, I'm likely going to the center in the morning and then I return to my home high school for classes in the afternoon. My senior year, I will complete the program in the afternoon, and I have gone to my home high school in the morning to complete my academic classes. So that's sort of the basic structure of the whole thing. The entitlement in title 16, chapter 37 is where we find all of our rules. In addition to rules from the state board of education that I have in a binder back here that I'm referring to, and they're also on our website. But that provides additional definition around some of the areas where statute is silent or where the legislature has assigned responsibility to the state board of education for implementation. Let me think about what else I could say. There are some parts of the state where students are able to pick between regions. So south of Springfield, students in Brockton, Rockingham, and Westminster can pick whether they go to the center in Springfield or the one in Brattleboro. There are other provisions in statute where in Searsburg, Halifax, there's one supervisory union right in the middle in Southern Vermont where there's a special provision in statute that students can attend technical education in Massachusetts. And there's two different centers that they can go to down there. The thing to know about that is Massachusetts vocational education system is a comprehensive high school system and it's for four years. It's very different than ours. So that's a provision that's legislated in statute that allows them to do that. In terms of porosity across the border with New Hampshire, New Hampshire designates some of our centers as their own centers. So that means that New Hampshire's taxpayers are paying for their students to attend our technical centers. The pandemic had an effect a little bit along the border. And some changes that New Hampshire has made in terms of how they fund technical education has affected River Valley and Springfield. There is a comprehensive high school across the river called Fall Mountain and they operate a few technical education programs and they were sending students to River Valley and then they had to stop because or it drew to a little trickle because New Hampshire wanted to keep their money. And I think there's still some space for negotiating and figuring that out. But on the New York side, there's a district, the Husik Falls District that has been sending students to the Tech Center in Bennington Southwest Tech. So that kind of might not be something that is common knowledge, but is an important part of the service that our system offers to our neighboring states and that our neighboring states offer to us. Let me think about, I think I'm gonna shift it out of secondary CTE, go into adult CTE. We touched on it briefly in the joint meeting with House Commerce, but each center is supposed to have an adult CTE coordinator and that is someone who is coordinating programs for adults. And we're generally speaking about adults with a diploma. This is, and they work closely with business and employer partners to offer training or even in some cases, educational courses. So photography might be something or baking. Just some employers say we wanna give our employees an opportunity to learn something that's not related to their job. So it's a little bit of an enrichment activity that is part of it. The adult CTE programs are basically operating on a business model. They have to generate the program income. They have to pay for the salaries of the positions. The state provides what I would say is a nominal level of support to them. It really requires leadership at the local level to prioritize those programs in the budgets of the technical centers and to make those programs as robust as they possibly can be. We see the effects kind of unequally around the state. We could point to the centers that have a full-time person that do a good job serving their region and their employers and other areas haven't prioritized it for various reasons and they're not robust programs. If I come back to the student perspective, the statute comes at it from a couple of different angles. So the operative language in the statute is a resident of this state of any age who doesn't have a high school diploma is entitled to secondary CTE. Now, if I am an adult, and I am an adult, a 43-year-old who wants to participate in a secondary CTE program, I probably am going to hesitate on that because I'm not sure I want to be in a class with high school students. So that's part of the consideration here. There are some centers that do, I think a fairly good job of allowing adults into the programs and they have some clear and strict policies about the behavior of the adults in terms of how they relate to or communicate with high school students outside of their class. So that's an adult without a diploma. That money comes off the top of the Ed Fund, meaning that the district of residence isn't getting charged for that adult's presence in there. So I'm going to shift gears and say now I'm an adult who has a diploma and I want to participate in a secondary program. I can pay for that out of my own pocket and the statute says the tech center can't charge me more than 40% of their announced tuition. And I might want to do that if it's a program that's unique. So at Burlington Technical Center, they have an aviation mechanics program. I might want to participate in that because that is going to lead me to an FAA certification. I might want to participate in the electrical program at Stafford Tech Center in Rutland because it's going to help me get to that apprenticeship, help me pass my apprenticeship license one test and maybe my license two test and then I can be an apprentice. So I might make that decision. If I make the decision not to participate in secondary CTE, then I'm responsible. I can sign up for courses with adult CTE, but I'm responsible for paying that tuition. The legislature has been very generous in the last couple of years in terms of the 802 opportunities grant and the advancement grants providing money to BSAC to allow people to participate in these credential trainings. That helps, that funds the programs, that makes it available to people. But if it weren't for those, I would have to pay for it out of my own pocket or my employer would have to pay for it. The important thing to know about adult CTE programs also is that they don't qualify for Title IV programs, which is the student aid from the federal government. And I don't know the specific reasons why, but none of them are able to get that Title IV recognition or approval to allow student loans to pay for them. Can you stop right there because I'm a little confused on that funding. So I work for a company. I'd like to get certain credentials. I see I can do this aviation course or whatever it is. Yeah, so I want to get the certification. So I have to pay for that or get my employer to pay for it. You have to pay for it or you have to get a grant or a scholarship. Okay. Some external source to pay for it. The state does not cover that. Unless you're getting, right, correct. Unless you're getting a grant from Department of Labor or you're getting a grant from BESAC, that's how that would work. So from Representative Brady. So I just said, so some programs have a full-time adult CTE coordinator, but the adult CTE programs are for like a business have to generate their own income. So those programs have decided they have the funds, they have the budget capacity to, they're essentially paying for that director out of this self-sustaining, the tuition they charge, right? It's a combination they, that those funds kind of sustain the program, but from a school budget standpoint, the administrator of that center has prioritized and made a decision that some amount of local funds are going to support this position. And some centers have like an administrative assistant that helps people sign up. I'm thinking specifically, I could give you the examples, but the one that's coming to mind is Stafford in Rutland. And I would, you know, not to favor one center over another and certainly not because Representative Coopley's in the room. We hear it's fabulous. It's the best. But Stafford, Bill Lucci at Stafford, it runs almost, it seems like a little mini college. Yeah. They have a pamphlet that goes out in the mail, you can go to their website and get all kinds of information and see what their offerings are. The adult CTE coordinators have a group, you know, a statewide organization and they've made a lot of progress over the last, you know, 10 years in terms of working together and sharing resources. They created a website that people can go to and you can find the trainings that they offer through that website. If I can multitask, I could probably put it in the chat and you could see it, but you can Google just Vermont Adult Technical Education and it would show up. Can I ask a follow-up question? I'm still trying to get this straight. So what's, does S, does the Center for Technology Essex have an adult program? Okay. So that is part of the Essex-Westford regular school budget like that somewhere in that school. It should be on the Technical Center budget. Part of their budget, but it's part of that big K-12 budget too, right? Yes, but because it's working with adults it cannot use education funds. All right, that's what I missed. I didn't say it, so sorry. Representative Harrison. Any of the CTE programs carry college credits? The secondary CTE programs do. We have funded for the last, I'm gonna, this program is good just before I started, but 15 years, a program called Fast Forward. And the Tech Center teachers in different programs are teaching either CCVs curriculum or Vermont text curriculum. And that model is called a concurrent enrollment model. So the students are getting high school credit and they're getting college credit. And for the most part, students might get up to six credits. We have a couple of programs around the state. I would point to the health science program at Burlington Tech Center where students can get up to 17 college credits by the end of the program. The cheapest credits they ever get. Oh yeah. Representative James. Thanks, so just to make sure I understand the funding. So the secondary CTE centers are sort of high school students. So just the regular kind of secondary program. So we know that's funded through taxpayer approved budgets and that comes out of the Ed Fund. And then if you're an adult and you don't have a diploma, you also have a right to access the secondary CTE programs. And that comes straight off the top of the Ed Fund. So that's also taxpayer funded. So the only portion that isn't is if you're an adult who already has a diploma and you wanna access a program at a tech center and because you're an adult who already has a diploma, you don't qualify for Ed Fund money. So that's why either you pay out of pocket or find some other source of funding. And that's why that particular component has to be essentially self-sustaining. Yes. Okay. Representative. Good question. We may have interrupted your flow here. So I'm not quite sure where you were headed next, but maybe, so I just, I have two things I'd like to have you talk a little bit more about how the secondary CTEs are actually funded, because it's not quite as simple as just the school budget. There's lots of money flowing back and forth and Carl Perkins grants and all that. So that's question one. And then question two, maybe after that is to talk a little bit about how does it get decided what is taught in secondary CTE? How does a program start and how does it end? So if that fit in the flow of what you are gonna do. Yeah, if you wanna go back to your face, that's fine. I was getting there. I'm working my way down the list of, sorry. Thank you. Representative Conlin, if I might ask a clarifying question, is your question about, not necessarily how a program starts and end, but how does a program come to exist? And how does a program come to be discontinued? Correct. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And I look at my own CTE, I know it's a lot of it is sort of what is workforce looking for, but I think there are also other courses that are taught that aren't necessarily workforce driven. But then also once one gets up and running and established but technology or whatever passes it by or it's no longer an in-demand thing, how does a program get, yeah, cease to exist? Okay. Let's see. Well, I'm gonna, I will answer your question. I'm gonna start in a different way. And I'm gonna pick up off of what Representative Erison was asking about and say that our Tech Center students also have access to the dual enrollment program that is available to all high school students, 11th and 12th graders under Act 77. So if you're in a Tech Center, if you're a Tech Center student, you could get possibly two courses paid for under Act 77 and two or three or four paid under the fast forward program, fast forward program is funded by Perkins money that we grant to CCV and Vermont Tech to run it. So that's how that program operates. And also Tech Center students are entitled to participate in early college. So that provision where, and I don't think I said this, but you don't have to be enrolled in a high school to participate in CTE, early college requires you to unenroll from a high school. So there's still that a little bit of an access overlap there. So starting to get to your question, Representative Conlin, there's a few types of programs in Tech Centers. We have introductory programs, two types. One is called a pre-tech exploratory and that is a longer program that introduces students to all the different areas, program areas of the Tech Center that they could come to. It's available to ninth and 10th graders. We also have pre-tech foundation programs, which are introductory programs to a specific program area at the Tech Center. So if you're interested in the automotive program, you could potentially participate in a pre-tech in transportation, distribution and logistics. That's a career cluster that the auto programs fall under. And I'm going to try to stay away from the, some of the specifics around career clusters. I'll just say at once, it's an organizing structure in education around the CTE programs. So those pre-tech foundation programs are also available to ninth and 10th graders, but 11th and 12th graders could participate in them if they want to. Some of the centers use those for 11th and 12th graders to supplement students' schedules. I'm thinking about North Country Career Center at Newport where students, 11th and 12th graders might have space in their schedule for North Country Union High School and they are allowed to enroll in a pre-tech. It's just to think of it as a career exploration course. It's giving them useful information. And then we get to what I would call the regular programs, automotive technician, manufacturing, engineering, agriculture, there's a long list of programs that are available. So whatever program you want to be enrolled in, here's how that gets paid for. Okay, so the tech center around this time of year is working on setting its budget. And part of figuring out what the budget is is determining what the announced tuition is going to be. And the tech centers because as I noted, are serving students both to calculate two tuitions. The in-state tuition removes all of the state supports from the calculation. So it's a lower amount because the taxpayers of Vermont are supporting those Vermont resident students who wanna participate. So the tech centers are leaving out the state supports from that calculation. They have an out-of-state tuition, which is a higher rate that's charged to those students who are coming across the border. That's an important factor in the calculation when you might hear us talk about full-time equivalent or FTEs or the sixth semester average. The sixth semester average is an average of the historical use of the center over six semesters by individual high schools. And it is a multiplier for the in-state tuition. And so if you're Middlebury Union High School and you have a sixth semester average of I'm making up numbers 105, you're gonna take Patricia Hannaford's announced tuition and multiply it by 105 to figure out what your cost is for the next school year. And then there's a little bit of history here, but the agency makes an on behalf payment from Middlebury Union High School District's funds to the tech center. And then the tech center would bill Middlebury Union High School for the balance. So there's an on behalf payment and then there's a direct payment. So this requires the high schools to budget CTE tuition. And as we've been trying to study under Act 189, how do we change the funding system? That item in the budget is hidden to voters essentially. So you're voting up a budget, you don't really know as a voter how much the tech center tuition is. And in Act 189, the model that was proposed is just to remove that whole process from the high school's budget. And then allow the centers to create their own budget and it would add a line and this is one model that was studied. Add a line on the property tax bill that's the regional CTE tax rate. And that allows voters to see how much it costs them to make the tech center available to students in their region. So that's- I was just wondering if it would be possible to put that in writing at some point, to just follow it. I don't do as well with auditory math. Sure, I have a presentation that I had given before. I wasn't sure if that would be helpful now, but I'm hearing it is. So I'll be happy to share it with the committee after and if you want me to come back and talk you through it, I can do that. As we work through the bill, I think that that will be a question. So have it ready to go. All right, so I'll start. Then I won't get into more specifics about it, but I'm gonna switch to the different categories of funding. So if we think of that CTE tuition as a foundation for this house that we're building, the next layer up is the support that is provided by the state. So there's salary assistance for the administrative positions. And this is something that's been around, I think, since the 80s. Salary assistance for five different positions, director, assistant director, guidance, co-op, and I'm forgetting the other one. I apologize, I've gotten this far without forgetting anything. So there's salary assistance. There's tuition reduction, which is a supplemental grant. There's also a provision that allows for additional funds to be assigned to a center that's experiencing FTE growth. So if the numbers are suggesting that the center is growing and they need more money to make that sustainable, we have a provision that allows for that. We provide transportation assistance to school districts to offset the cost of transporting students to and from the center that has, I'm gonna say been underutilized a little bit. So there's an awareness campaign, I think that we have to undertake to make sure that business managers and administrators know that that money is available. And then on top of those, there's the federal money. So for context, the kind of the scope of the funds that the state provides or that locals provide is about in the ballpark of $50 million. And the Perkins program from the federal government is $5 million. And that is distributed by formula and that formula prioritizes like most of the federal programs distribution primarily by poverty, census data of poverty in a region. Oh, sorry, could you just repeat where the $50 million came from? The $50 million is a rough estimate of all of the local money that pays for tuition and the state supports into the tech centers. And those state supports are out of the head fund? Yes, unless it's adult CTE and then they're out of the general fund or the other ways that I talked about. And then to get to the other question, Representative Conlon asked about what is taught? We have on our website and we just updated these, the programs are based on what we previously called competency and task lists. So it's basically performance-based students have to show that they're able to do X, Y and Z. And we rely on our partners in business and industry to tell us what it is we should be teaching, what it is that they are looking for from students who finish a high school program. And we also rely on feedback from our post-secondary partners. So CCV might be telling us, we're looking for this in this type of program and Vermont Tech might be saying, we're looking for this so that we can align and make the pathway smoother for students to be able to transition to us. So for the last year plus, our state CTE director Ruth Durkey has been working with a contractor to update those competency and task lists and we're calling them program proficiencies now. They're up on our website and they're by program area. So you could see what it is that a student in a building trades program is learning, what all the programs should be teaching to. They can teach it however they want. They can use whatever curriculum they want but these are the standards that we've established. So you go to our website and click on students, you get a dropdown and career technical education is right there and then you would click on programs and see that list and you can examine those program proficiencies. In terms of how a program comes to exist, again, that's leadership at the local level that is identifying this need. Perhaps businesses have come to the tech center and said we really need you to teach this kind of program. We have time, we call them time grants, technology, innovation, modernization and equipment grants $750,000 each year that the centers can apply for to get a program started if they want to or to change the focus of a program if they wanna do that. A new process from the federal government, as I mentioned previously in Perkins is the comprehensive local needs assessment. And that is the process that we didn't have before but that will improve the alignment of our CTE programs with the labor market and the needs in each region. It will also cause the centers to have discussions about should we be offering this program? Should we be offering some other kind of program instead to better meet the needs of our local economy? And I'll stop there. And that is where that's a local decision or I would say a regional decision where a program would come to exist, the agency has to approve it in order for the tech centers to be able to count the students in it for FTE. But it is also a local decision about discontinuation. When we're examining programs, we're trying to provide feedback that's gonna improve the programs. And sometimes students take care of that themselves. They vote with their feet, as the directors say, if they don't like a teacher, they are not going to enroll in that program. If that teacher has not served students effectively, where it gets out and students will stop enrolling. And that's a market effect, I think, if you could think of it like that. Thank you. Just looking around. I represent James. I just wanted to go back to the funding for a second, if we could. So you said that the tech center sets its budget. And I know that there are various models, but that's approved by voters in different ways, depending on what kind of governance model the CT is under, right? Okay. And then they take that budget and they remove all the state and federal funds that are gonna be flowing in. So all the things you talked about, aid for transportation, salary support, supplemental grants for tuition reduction. So they subtract all that out. And that remaining number is the number they use to determine what their tuition is gonna be, their per pupil tuition. Yeah. Okay. And then for the money coming in, so there's all this money coming straight from the state in terms of these different grants, basically, rider, the salary support. So that just all comes right off the top of the Ed Fund. It comes to each tech center right off the top. And then the tuition payments, I didn't understand that part. I'm sorry, that's where I lost the thread, just at the very end there. So they passed through AOE somehow? The tuition payments, oh, the on behalf payment? Is that what you're? Yeah, I think that's just the very end there. I think I dropped off. Right. Well, you did a good job. So far. Captain Morgan talks that. So there's a provision on the statute that allows the agency of education to take, to make a payment to the tech center on behalf of the school district that owes the tuition money. And it's a certain percentage. So Brad James, who does all the FTE calculations, processes a payment out of the school district's funds in the Ed Fund to the tech center. And then the tech center sends an invoice, and hold on, I'm sorry, the high school has to account for that in their ledger. And the tech center has to account for that in their ledger. And then the tech center sends an invoice to the high schools for the balance of the funds. So the amount that overall is due minus the on behalf payment is the balance due. So AOE is sending some percentage of each tuition payment straight to the school. And then the balance is basically billed, the tech center basically bills the high school for it. So in terms of the tuition payments, some portion of that's coming straight out of the Ed Fund. And then the rest of it is coming straight from the sending school to the tech center. Okay. So section 1561 of the statute item B, I'll just read it says on behalf of the Sending School District within Vermont, a CTE center shall receive from the Ed Fund for each full-time equivalent student from the district, 87% of the base education amount. And an equivalent amount shall be subtracted from the amount due to the Sending District. Okay. And it goes on to describe the process, but it's a percentage of the base amount that is the on behalf payment. Okay. So just like the rest of our education finance system, it's super straightforward and easy to understand. Well, I'm gonna sit here with you today because I've been working on it for 10 years. No, I think I got it. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Representative Boston? Yep. I'm just wondering, is there any carryover or alignment with quality education standards into the CTE? And is there a core set of skills and knowledge and kind of attitudes that go across all courses at the CTE? That is such a brilliant question. Next question, I'm just kidding. So education quality standards do say that they apply to the technical centers. One of the things that we've been trying to do in the student pathways division with is work on kind of a coordinated curricular approach with the tech centers to the high schools. And that would kind of speak to representative Brady's question in house commerce. How do we take what's happening in the tech centers and kind of braid it or weave it down into younger grades so that the students and the teachers could see the path to get to that program? That's in my answer in that committee is the work that's ahead of us. And I think some centers probably do it really well, but for the most part, no. And that is how we go about getting more students involved in technical education. I think this coordinated curriculum that has seamless pathways from seventh grade, eighth grade all the way up to grade 14 or 16. That's the vision for the system. How do we work in a system that has different approaches, different models, different governance, different priorities? How do we take that and get to where we want to be? That's the essential question, I think for us. I think that's how I will land on that one. We do wanna coordinate the curriculum. I did in the past facilitate meetings with curriculum coordinators or curriculum leaders and districts with the tech centers. And like most of the time, I think we hear, it's not a lack of interest or a lack of desire. It's sort of a lack of personnel resources to be able to do it. Thank you. I wanna talk about one, maybe one last thing here. And that's how do you, how do the students get to the tech center? How do they learn about it? And so the tech centers call this recruiting. You know, if we could step back from that word and kind of talk about career guidance and career awareness and career education, a system that is counseling and advising students about the careers that are available in local economies and in the New England region and in Vermont, is a key part, a key function of this. And they should, you know, then become aware of how can they get to their dream job? How can they get to a job that has family sustaining wages? How can they, you know, get to become aware of all the things that we want them to be aware of and counseling and advising is the key component there. And then that leads students to become aware of the tech center and it requires less, I would, my theory would be less active involvement on the part of the tech centers to go out and do what they call road shows or doing events in the gymnasium at high school or even trying to recruit during the pandemic using Zoom and, you know, virtual tours of the tech center. You kind of have to be in the facility and see that it's very different from your high school. And I think, you know, students don't know what they don't know. And they often opt out of things like recruiting during lunchtime, these events that are happening in the gym because they think, oh, that's a school coming to recruit me or coming to give me information. I already know what school is like. I've been doing it for eight or nine years and technical education is different. So, you know, I think we wanna figure out how to do this information sharing differently. There's requirements in the statute that the high schools have to provide students, provide the tech centers with the names of all of their rising ninth graders and all of their rising 11th graders and that the high schools should make available to the tech centers, you know, the opportunity to give information to the students. But that's it. It's, we're talking about a more robust approach when we're talking about career counseling and advising as a means of making students aware of and aspiring to different things, whether it's to the tech center, through the tech center or in some cases, students don't wanna, they go around the tech center. That's okay. Thank you. This has been very helpful. We appreciate it. I'm conscious of the time and I remember you had a 4.30 and so I'm pretty sure we're gonna be seeing you again. Okay. And I always appreciate hearing from you. And you've got a lot of perspective. I will, I'm happy to be here. I will send that CTE 101 and I have kind of a basic level funding presentation that might help make sense of all of the things that I just spouted at you off the top of my head. I'm proud of myself. I don't even have any notes up here. You're impressed. So with that, I think we can end here. And I'm sure our questions will be rising as we dig deeper into the concept before us. And I would encourage you all to listen to Vermont edition tomorrow. I'll be on it with the director of the center and from Rutland and a couple of other people to talk about technical education. Great. We'll set that up soon. Excellent. Had it placed again at seven. So we'll be able to get to here. Well, thank you for the opportunity and I look forward to speaking with you again in the future. Thank you. Thank you, Jerry. We are postponing the testimony we were going to be taking from representative James and representative Stranger, H-456. We'll be looking for another slot for that time. It's our recent rescheduled term out of tomorrow at 11.15. Great. So tomorrow morning, we will hear an update on refinance. I haven't seen their report yet. I have great hopes involved. Dear. We'll be hearing from a cast here. We'll be following up after that with Act 173. We're a department agency of education. We don't have Brad James to deal with the finance apart. We've also reached out to other superintendents on school personnel on what they would need if we are not postponing 173. We're looking at programmatic supports and financial supports moving forward. I'm sure we will also hear requests to postpone and that is certainly their privilege to put forward. We had some testimony coming later. I think that representative Coopley would like to postpone his introduction to H-609. He needs to be in touch with the agency and I guess that's been a bit of a challenge. So this is an administration bill. So we'd like to have the administration in. And then in the afternoon, we were supposed to be hearing from the secretary on our two bills, Act 28 and Act 72. Are those still in? Those are still happening great. This will be our inventory as well as the literacy council. I have not seen a report yet. Amanda, have you seen a report from them? I haven't seen those reports. I think we have something on literacy, but not on school facilities. And then we will also be hearing tomorrow from Representative Buttshaw on H-493. This is the companion bill to our chapter 11 that starts to get into some of the policy concerns and issues. And Representative Conlon, do you want to say that you and Representative Harrison are working on that bill? Other testimony that we're looking for? Yeah, well, at some point we'll need to sort of have committee time to discuss some of the policy questions that were posed. Some of them are pretty simple and some of them are not, but why not some time to do that? Okay. And then we're still working on building Thursday, I think, because we have some things that pulled out on Thursday as well. So we're doing our continued scheduling challenges. Let's all give a big thank you to Amanda for sticking with us on this complex time. And with that, without further ado, I think we can end.