 Hey everybody today we're debating whether or not veiling for Muslim women women in Muslim countries is good And we are starting right now with Daniel's opening statement. Thanks so much for being with us Daniel. The floor is all yours Let me just set it up. Sorry it's everyone for the delay Okay So I have some slides that I need to show you is veiling good or evil Let me first define veiling or hijab veiling is not just a piece of cloth covering a woman's head veiling is an entire system of gender separation that keeps Non-familiar men and women separate from each other and out of view When we ask whether or not veiling is good We first must recognize that veiling is not exclusively Islamic Nowadays Muslim women are primarily known for veiling But of course other religions have a history of veiling Christian nuns are well-known and numerous verses of the Bible reference and even prescribed veiling Typically the Virgin Mary is depicted with a full veil Orthodox Jewish women are also required by Jewish law to veil after marriage But veiling extends beyond just these three religions the first historical documentation of veiling comes from Middle Assyrian law code of 1400 BC Ancient Greek history also has many references to veiling the earliest recorded references from 1300 BC on the basis of Statues like this one and literary references Historians have concluded that was customary for women in Greece to dress Conservatively and to veil the practice of veiling continued in ancient Rome where the veil was a symbol of the authority of a husband Over his wife wives who refused to veil were seen as not fully committed to their marriages one historical example from 166 BC Involves a magistrate named Sopulchius Gallus who divorced his wife because she had gone out in public without the veil He justified the divorce by saying quote the law prescribes for you my eyes alone to which you may prove your beauty If you with needless provocation invite the look of anyone else you must be suspected of wrongdoing European women continue to dawn the veil throughout the Middle Ages in Asia, too We see numerous cultures historically practiced veiling Contrary to popular belief veiling didn't enter Persia via Islamic conquest Centuries prior to Islam the ancient women of the Persian dynasties would veil in the Indian Subcontinent early Sanskrit sources refer to the avaguntana, which means veil or cloak The fifth century playwright Sudraka mentions how married women were expected to wear the veil in public pre-Islamic Indian art and statues also depict women in veils Some form of veiling is found in all the Indic religions including Jainism and Buddhism Moving eastward the Sui and Tang dynasties in China had their women wear the mili This Chinese garment has been described by historians as quote burqa like because it draped over a woman's head and extended to her feet covering the entire head face and Body except for small breaks in the fabric to allow the woman to see Let me just switch out out of the presentation Veiling is found in countless cultures and geographic regions, but but why is this why did so many disparate? religions and cultures Independently practice veiling if veiling is just a patriarchal social practice invented by evil men to subjugate women Why did so many cultures independently invent the same evil practice? The answer is that veiling this system of separating men from women is biologically rooted human nature itself calls for veiling That's why we see it practiced with the same basic form and purpose all over human history veiling arises from a biologically rooted instinct called mate guarding Mate guarding refers to any kind of behavior which prevents a male from Reproducing with others as world-renowned biologist David bust puts it desirable mates are always in short supply compared to the many who seek them end quote for this reason animals use Strategies to keep their mates and prevent others from accessing them or poaching them For example, certain male insects like grasshoppers will grab onto a female after mating with her and refuse to let go By doing this the male prevents other male competitors from accessing the female Japanese beetles take a similar strategy by moving in tandem with their females in order to cover them in this way The male beetle uses his own body to veil the female from being seen by other males Male gorillas will mate guard by stalking their female mates and making noises to ward off other males They will also build their nests directly under the female gorilla nests in order to physically block access to his mate Male dolphins are really interesting a male will guard his mate by allying with several other males The group of males then use aggressive clicking noises to ward off other males while also Physically blocking the female from going near them Basically, these male allies serve as a kind of morality police making sure the female doesn't stray These are there are countless mate guarding strategies used throughout the animal kingdom some more aggressive than others But the objective is always the same to prevent competing males from sexually accessing one's mate in humans Men men mate guard primarily by preventing women from mixing with other men and also by veiling them Now before you wag your finger at men for being controlling and insecure Realize that females also engage in mate guarding to limit their partner's access to other mates in human women They do this with strategies like limiting polygyny Requiring monogamy making men wear rings or other indicators that her man is already taken or she'll hang off of Her man's arm when they're in public women also engage in what can be only described as slut shaming Women will shame other women who engage in promiscuous behavior Especially if a woman steals another woman's man such women are labeled as home wreckers Extreme social shaming is used by women to prevent this type of poaching behavior Another major part of female mate guarding is to limit a male's ability to spend resources on other females and other offspring Women do this by requiring men to commit a great deal of time and resources to them and their children More time and resources than is strictly needed for survival By forcing men to sink resources and things like mandatory dowry Maintenance child support etc women hinder a man's ability to offer those resources to other women This is how women are able to control and ultimately limit the sexual freedom of men because men attract women with their resources By laying heavy claim to those resources a woman essentially makes a man less attractive and less Accessible to other women in the same exact way that the veil makes a woman less attractive and less accessible to other men And if you think the veil is more of a burden for women You should realize that American law for example forces men to pay child support That's up to 18 years of forced payment Even if he never wanted a child and if the man misses a payment he can be thrown in jail Laws like this which forcefully extract resources from men severely limits men's ability to attract partners Another way that we can understand mate guarding is that when men and women enter into a relationship They've engaged in a reciprocal exchange Both sides give and receive but like any investment both sides want to protect their investment The main thing but not the only thing that biologically drives men to get with women is sexual access to their bodies And the main thing but not the only thing that biologically drives women to get with men is Access to his resources and his protection both of these investments are secured through mate guarding mate guarding is necessary Because the investment of both sides can be compromised by the actions of the other side if a woman gets impregnated by another man That's a major loss for him if a man deprives a woman of resources and spends it on other women That's a major loss for her. So mate guarding is necessary in order to maintain the viability of these committed pair bonds Islamic law institutes mate guarding in numerous ways Islam criminalizes sex outside of marriage and implements harsh punishments to deter violations Islam also requires husbands to provide and protect their wives and to financially support their children Even after divorce Islam also institutes gender separation Women are required to veil and by the same token both men and women are required to lower their gaze All this reduces the chances of infidelity and poaching all this protects the interests of both men and women Mate guarding and veiling have numerous benefits I'll just mention two first women who practice veiling are statistically less promiscuous in Muslim societies where veiling and monastic modesty are still enforced women have far fewer sexual partners Pre-marriage than in modern liberal societies This directly impacts the happiness of women one study by Andrew Galperin showed that women more than men are Hard-wired to experience casual uncommitted sex as deeply traumatic Other studies show that women who have more sexual partners before marriage Psychologically experienced reduced marriage quality Basically women are less satisfied with their husbands if they've had a lot of prior experience with other men They're also more likely to get divorced so contrary to sex-positive feminism More sexual experience does not lead to more long-term happiness in fact quite the opposite veiling blocks precisely this behavior in this way veiling is in the interest of both men and women by giving them what they want And what they need committed partners and committed long-lasting relationships The fact of the matter is due to biological instincts men are less likely to commit to women They view as promiscuous so when women can't secure that commitment from men because of their promiscuous behavior They'll naturally be depressed. This is why we're at all-time highs of female depression in our current day The second benefit of veiling is that it increases paternal investment Studies show that when a man is more confident that his partner is being faithful to him He will spend more time and resources on the children. He has had with that woman This is due to the man being more confident that those children are actually his and not the children of some other Man who has impregnated his partner behind his back a woman who dresses modestly or veils Signals to her man consciously or subconsciously that she is not sleeping around and getting impregnated by other men This makes the man consciously or subconsciously more confident that he's the father of the children She gives birth to and that makes him more likely to invest time and resources into those children This is a huge benefit of veiling to society because paternal investment is one of the biggest Indicators of a child's future well-being children who grow up without fatherly investment are more likely to fall into crime to drop out of school to end up unemployed to have Psychological problems to be depressed suicidal addicted to drugs and on and on the reason all of these negative factors are on the rise in Western societies Is tied to increased promiscuity which creates less paternal investment These social problems do not exist to the same extent in societies with stable families that have strong paternal investment due to far less sexual promiscuity due to veiling to summarize the practice of veiling is part of a much broader human practice known as Mate guarding without mate guarding you can't have the institution of marriage You can't even have committed relationships in general. So veiling is not only a major force of good in society It's also necessary for the future of humanity It's driven by universal human instincts, and that's why it's been practiced by countless societies throughout history Ultimately many of the social and psychological problems that people in the modern West are suffering from could be solved or Mitigated with the practice of veiling and sexual modesty that Islam teaches thank you very much for that opening Daniel and Want to say folks if it's your first time here at modern a debate I'm your host James Coons our vision is to provide a neutral platform so that everybody can make their case on a level playing field We hope you feel welcome whether you be Christian atheist Muslim you name it We're glad you're here and big announcement debate con our conference is going to be on Saturday April 22nd This is debate con 3.1 as this first one is going to have Just political debates all on one day and then we'll do our poll I should say religion debates all on one day And then our political debates will be on a separate day a couple months later We're testing different things out you don't want to miss this conference For example as you can see at the bottom right of your screen Daniel and inspiring philosophy will be debating You don't want to miss it hit that subscribe button right now as we've got a lot of debates coming up in the future with that Thank you very much. Norea thrilled to have you the floor is all yours for your opening Thank you. Hi, it's great to be here again. Thank you modern day debates for setting this up Daniel, it's good to officially meet you after our little Twitter spot where you did me dirty and blurred my face You can't say that I didn't extend the hand of friendship when I graciously returned the favor I was nice enough to conform to your world view in order to protect your modesty and respect you I had no choice but to scroll over your face. I'm sorry But I wouldn't want you to be an uncovered lollipop, right? So I hope I succeeded in protecting you from those nasty flies And if you still attracted flies then I guess veiling isn't the answer and maybe there's a problem with those flies Anyway, until we find out I think it's best you follow Allah's command from Surah and nor Tell the believing men to lower their gaze from looking at forbidden things and protect their private parts So Daniel I'd expect you to be a good Muslim and lower your gaze for the duration of this debate Unless you think the screen between us is enough to of a veil to stop fit now Anyhow, I hope by the end of today's debate You will at least understand that women are equal to men whether or not you like it your opinion won't and can't change that The answer is not to erase women from the public sphere Daniel The solution lies in fixing the mentality of men like yourself and to root out the source problem Islam The fact that you blurred my features leads me to think that not only do you fair hair? But you'd like to erase women entirely I'd like to know if beyond veiling you're a proponent of the niqab where women aren't even given the decency to see The world through their own eyes Who do you think you are to take away a woman's personal experience of reality and force her to see the world from behind a veil? Allah so incompetent that first he created such easily tempted weak men who can't control their sexual urges and impulses then created beautiful women and gave them an allegedly powerful force that causes men to go astray He then orders women to cover up that very thing because of the men he created weak to begin with The next name I mentioned should send shivers down all of your spines Massa Gina Amini remember her beaten to death for showing two strands of hair two strands of hair Daniel if they can beat a young woman black and blue Concuss and kill her for something as trivial as hair. What would they have done to me just for existing right now? Tell me Daniel. What is it about hair that threatens Islamist like yourself so much? What does it do to you men? It seems to me almost as awe-inspiring as getting to see a lush shin on the day of judgment What about 17 year old Nika Shakir Ami? Her nose was smashed and skull was broken in Iran and Sarah Shirazi and the 14 year old who was Repeatedly raped and then killed for removing her hijab at school. Islam is responsible for their blood If you think these barbaric excuses for men have already convinced us that they're scum in 2000 Hussain al-Muntazeri a cleric and designated successor of Supreme leader Khomini published his memoirs it revealed texts from Khomani's Patwa Which stated that female prisoners who are virgins must be raped before execution to prevent them from entering heaven Where was their hijab to protect them then the sexual assault was not confined to girls But also aging women many were declared clinically insane as a result of the constant rape They endured Allah Muhammad and Umar ibn khattab are responsible for the body count of every single woman ever beaten Tortured or killed in the name of hijab We see similar crimes against humanity where the Pakistani army Systematically undertook a campaign of genocidal rape against hundreds of thousands of Bengali Hindu women It seems that regardless of being Muslim or non-Muslim the common denominator with Islam is sexual violence and rape Perpetuated against women and girls hijab or no hijab Let me tell you a tragic story to bring this madness to life On March 11 2002 a fire broke out at a girls school in Mecca 15 girls were left to die. They could have easily escaped but weren't allowed to leave the burning building Why not you might ask because they weren't wearing proper Islamic clothes the veil and a buyer civil defense office officers reported that religious police or the mudawa Interfered with rescue efforts. They were there to ensure the strict gender segregation and dress code Their powers included powers to arrest and to refer individuals suspected of violating religious and Moral codes to the courts women who failed to cover up suffered on the spot beatings Arab news quoted defense officers are saying we told them the situation was dangerous And it wasn't the time to discuss religious issues, but they refused and started shouting at us Whenever the girls got out through the main gate the mudawa forced them to return via another Instead of extending a helping hand for the rescue. They were using their hands to beat them Human rights watch said women and girls may have died unnecessarily because of extreme interpretations of the Islamic dress code Imagine putting a veil above human life Imagine the kind of people who would beat and force little girls to their death because they can't bear to see the fitna of hair Even as they flee for their lives this incident alone should prove to you how dangerous hijab can be Even more disturbing is that Saudi is a state party to the UN convention on the rights of the child and the UN convention of the elimination of All forms of discrimination against women Now the four major Sunni schools all agree It's obligatory for women to cover their hair and entire body except the hands and face in the presence of other men In the presence of men sorry other than mehrims many secular moderate Muslims insist There's no prescription for the veil in the Quran at the very least It's recommended or encouraged practice if not mandatory now Let's travel back in time to 1400 years ago having already proclaimed Prophecy Muhammad didn't give a flying barat about veiling There are plenty of scenarios in Bukhari where he was in the presence of Quraishi women who weren't veiled and he wasn't fast Now without trying to dismantle Islam in one go Given the Quran is the direct word of infallible Allah spoken through Gabriel to Muhammad How on earth did a wish of Omar Ibn Khadab make its way in there? Either Omar is just as much of a prophet as Muhammad who's capable of receiving revelation or the Quran is not the word of God Just as the scribe of Muhammad Abdullah Abisar realized before he was killed on Muhammad's orders when escaping from Adina to Makkah Bukhari 146 tells the story One night Sauda or the wife of the Prophet went out in Isha and she was a tall lady Omar addressed her and said I recognized you Oh Sauda He said so as he desired eagerly the verses of al-Hijab So Allah revealed the verses of al-Hijab This led to the revelation of Quran 33 59 Oh Prophet tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves Part of the outer garments that is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused Notice how it says they will be known and not be abused some translations say harassed molested even troubled Let me tell you why it specifically says that in Medina Omar and his companions were frequent places where women were exposed and vulnerable to sexual harassment Particularly at night Among those with the fields of Manasi where women would go to relieve themselves Remember sex slavery was also rampant at this time and slave women were forced to walk around topless Whereby even their most intimate body parts could be inspected by potential buyers Omar realized the presence of Muslim women could be an issue as they could become a victim of his sexual violent activities When Omar approached Muhammad demanding they cover in order to be noticed and not raped Muhammad was initially reluctant One night Omar saw Sauda at the very spot where they'd carry out these sexual raids Sauda then told Muhammad and he agreed to receive a revelation Omar got what you finally wanted the implementation of the veil to tell a Muslim woman apart from a non Muslim one Bukhari 402 also implies Muslim when men were okay with mistreating any unveiled women sound familiar How many times have we had Muslim leaders claim that non-believing women are whores? What about the wave of sex attacks in Germany in 2016 where? 1200 women were sexually assaulted an Algerian man was found guilty of sexual assault carried out by a group of 20 men a 21-year-old Iraqi kissed a young woman against her will then licked her face Police said the attacks were perpetrated by a group of Arab or North African men in what they described as a new dimension in crime One victim told Yura knew she was groped and fondled between her legs Her boyfriend tried to pull her away, but there was a big big group of people maybe 30 or 40 men Police described men working in coordinated groups to group women Doesn't this sound awfully similar to the antics of Omar and his men with their sexual raids There's no there's no evidence to suggest that covering women up leads them to being harassed less Moreover the solution to harassment Daniel is not to place the burden on women to cover up or change their behavior But to address the root causes of gender inequality and work to create a culture where harassment isn't tolerated This includes educating individuals about consent and respect to things Islam and Allah don't understand There's no consent in Islam. You know that from Quran 2 2 2 3 Your women are your fields. You may enter them whichever way you like that Daniel is the literal sexual objectification You can't get more degrading than that where in the West does any aspect of society encourage this madness This is sanctioning marital rape 150 countries have criminalized it yet in Daniel's perfect Islamic world right behind closed doors would go unchecked For consent to be legally valid It must be given explicitly and voluntarily and both both parties must have capacity to understand what they're consenting to Tell me Daniel Does six-year-old girls in Afghanistan have the capacity to understand what they're consenting to when they're being purchased by old frail Despicable 50 year old grandpas Despite graduating from Harvard. I still worry you may not understand that so let me tell you the answer is a resounding no Additionally whenever and wherever women are given a choice most women do not choose to cover up In countries like Saudi Iran Somalia where they must cover from head to toe usually in black Not getting enough sunlight can have negative effects on their health lead to vitamin D deficiency and Especially in peak summer it can lead to heat exhaustion and dehydration because wearing black doesn't reflect the sunlight it absorbs it Also research shows that people experience positive emotions from autonomous motives behind their actions Rather than controlled or coerced motives as the response to internal or internally imposed pressures How Daniel intends to prove forceful veiling will lead to a better society is beyond me According to a Reuters survey of countries with the worst gendered parities Afghanistan Afghanistan in Syria ranked in second and third place with Somalia and Saudi next eight out of ten We're Islamic countries women face sexual violence domestic abuse harmful practices Daniel like FGM so called honor killings and more often than not have zero to Limited access to healthcare and economic resources wearing a veil doesn't seem to change anything for a woman's safety or status in Pakistan more than 70% of rapes are perpetuated by immediate family members What's the point of instructing women to veil if they aren't even safe in their own homes? They're not safe from their supposed mehrums and you believe the solution lies with women veiling the hijab is a stain on women It represents the man's refusal to control their urges It's a burden Muslim women accept along with a passive choice to become a breathing walking ideological tool for Islam It's not just a physical cloth of oppression, but a psychological one. Thank you Thank you very much for that opening as well Maria and want to say just a couple of other quick housekeeping things before we jump into the open Conversation folks in particular first I put a poll here in the modern day debate live chat of Today's debate question is veiling for women in Muslim countries good So do come on over and click on that poll put your vote in if you're watching anywhere else as well as Want to remind you folks modern day debate is on podcast if you haven't already Find us on your favorite podcast app and with that we're gonna kick it into open dialogue Thank you very much Daniel and Maria the floor is all yours. What about the rebuttals? Yes, that's right We're doing rebuttals today. Sorry about that. It is a seven minute rebuttal. So Seven minutes the floor is all yours Daniel Okay Yeah, so I mean that was a load of nonsense just complete gish galloping about every feminist stereotype So this was a debate about veiling not every feminist grievance against Islam But let me address some of your points. You're mentioning masa amina amini So this is a complete hoax. She was not beaten to death She was arrested and then collapsed from a medical condition in a police station. This is recorded on cctv the south china post South c china post also had that video published. So she was not beaten to death And this is a complete hoax that that actually didn't happen She just collapsed in the police station and her family said she had a pre-existing Condition so i'm not a fan of the iranian regime and they commit all kinds of egregious crimes But this claim that they beat a woman to death because she had two strands of hair showing is a complete hoax Um, when you talk about hair like, oh, you know, you blurt out my face or whatever That's this is also ridiculous the a man's hair and a man's looks are not the same as a woman's looks This is like saying that. Oh a random villager A random male villager who has like luscious locks In africa or in afghanistan or wherever it's going to be a temptation to women and women in the west are going to Be drooling over that villager. Oh look at his hair There's a fundamental difference between What's attractive in a man and what's attractive in a woman? This is something that's biological and none of your feminist cliches address that fundamental difference You claim that there is a fetwa for raping prisoners For I didn't even understand that I don't know where that comes from. So please give me a source You know an academic source for that That sounds completely ridiculous women burned in madrasa in saudi in 2002 So yes, there was a fire in a woman's school But the way that you characterized it is completely false. The religious police didn't say that Oh, we have to burn these children to death because they're not wearing the hijab That wasn't the situation go actually read the official reports The religious police just made a mistake because they didn't realize the extent of the fire So they delayed the evacuation So that was a mistake about fire safety. It was it's not the same thing as saying Oh, we're gonna burn children because they're not wearing the veil. That's absolutely absolutely ridiculous. And it's quite I don't want to say islamic phobic Maybe racist to think that people are so barbaric that they allow their own children to Burn alive because they have hair showing like this is you're just repeating the most Ridiculous hateful far-right tropes about muslims. It's quite appalling with your claim about omar And the prophet peace be upon him regarding veiling and oh they omar is the one who invented the veil This is also historically false my opening statement Explain how veiling existed in pre islamic arabia It's factually incorrect to say that omar invented it or that this was something that originated with islam As I explained there are many cultures that were around a millennia before islam That practiced veiling including in the arabian peninsula islam just emphasized and formalized it What pre islamic women wore is that they covered their heads with what's called a khimar But the quran just simply commanded them to bring the khimar over the chest To cover the chest. So that's you know, again complete mischaracterizations from your part You're talking about like arab and black african Refugees in europe raping women like as if you know, what is that supposed to prove? Like how is that relevant to hijab other than spreading more right-wing stereotypes? afghanistani girls being purchased like six year olds like What are the sources from this like give me academic sources to back up these kinds of points Not just these what seems to be far right wing Racist sources that you seem to be quoting for the purposes of this debate So, I mean you're how much time do I have james? You have two minutes and 40 seconds So your entire argument was predicated on two massive lies first that you're saying that veiling is something specific to Muslims or islam it's something that islam promoted. This is false as we saw their countless historical examples You also want to portray veiling as a form of misogyny and hatred of women But as I discussed in the opening veiling is just another form of a universal human practice known as mate guarding Mate guarding has nothing to do with misogyny or subjugation It has to do with securing the interests of both men and women so that they can have stable long-term Committed relationships that become the building blocks of a healthy society the modern liberal alternative that nuria Is proposing is an absolute dystopia. We are at a point in history where due to porn culture Women are more exposed and more uncovered than at any other time period Yet we're also seeing unprecedented levels of depression and mental illness from women These things are deeply connected no matter how much atheists like nuria will deny it Now nuria might say that contemporary porn culture is bad, but that doesn't mean we have to start veiling Actually, that's not true. It's a binary between veiling and porn culture Those are the only two options why because as soon as you open the door to women showing their beauty in public It creates a race to the bottom. This is because women compete with each other to attract men Just look at western history european women initially were where we're wearing burkas in public in the middle ages But then one woman decides to show her face then another woman decides Well, i'm going to show a little bit of hair then another woman says, okay, i'll show some hair and my neck too Another says, okay, well to stay competitive in the sexual marketplace. Let me show some leg Let me wear a mini skirt. Let me show some cleavage and on and on Standards of covering completely devolve until you arrive at our current situation with only fans and sexting and women posting their genitals For millions to see online once you open pandora's box That's what happens and history has proven this over and over again veiling is necessary to keep that box closed So and there's empirical studies that show this as well. I mentioned andrew galperin You can also look at gregory wefster's life history theory basically women who grow up in Households where the mother is more promiscuous and there's no father influence those women end up Regretting uncommitted sex, but they just regret it a little bit less than women who grew up with a father figure So this becomes a perpetual cycle this becomes a vicious cycle and it brings the entirety of society down With it and we are seeing that dystopia all around us Um, so I can't understand how someone like nuria you don't have to be a muslim to recognize that This is a problem depression of women suicidal thoughts of women that one out of three young girls are suffering from suicidal thoughts That is connected to the kind of Social media that pushes pornographic images pushes women in a state of undress Time thank you very much for that rebuttal as well We'll kick it over to neria, but i've got to say daniel and neria I am Blown away the amount of likes on this video right now people are absolutely pumped about this debate So i want to say thanks so much for your support out there folks our guests are linked in the description We're going to kick it over to neria for her opening or I should say rebuttal as well seven minutes The floor is yours Thank you. Um, just gonna quickly run through some of your points in the opening daniel and then i'll come back to what You just said now But yeah, the fact that you again are promoting Gender segregation like it's some kind of virtue the the terms you use like women out of you It just lends itself to the fact that you want to erase women from the public sphere And think the fact that you think that feminism is is the threat to that is crazy I'm going to teach you about feminism But hold on you the entire thing that you did in your opening when you talked about me waffling and you know making Up stuff You talk about refer to nuns nuns who don't get beaten to death like you want to actually contest masa amini's video that was Known to be tampered with her father tried to contest that the fact that you're buying that narrative of course you have to it's embarrassing I know that but nuns don't get beaten to death. You can't compare. It's a choice. That's the operative word here choice none of the empires or Regions that you talked about having veiling claimed to be the timeless eternal religion that islam is Society has moved past that nobody is being beaten that black and blue for not covering their heads only under islamic society Is that happening what you did in your entire opening was an appeal to history and tradition fallacy Because it happened in the past so much therefore. Oh look, it's correct That that's not how it works and everything that you try to promote as virtue whether it's in the animal kingdom or Males guarding their their females or their partners. It just boils down to sexual survival. It is found everywhere It's not again. It's not a virtue. It's an evolutionary survival mechanism It does not mean you trap women you confine them you veil them you lock them in their houses And also did you compare some of these animals lashing out to the morality police? That was hilarious You also mentioned That having to pay child care is an issue blah de blah Well, if that's the case, why does islam insist on custody of the child going to the the man? Why why not keep the child with the the female even in matters like that? You discriminate because you want to keep that child in the fold even there You don't give the woman the courtesy of contesting to keep her child because it's only one way in sharia Again, you talk about women being less promiscuous if they are veiled Do you know the amount of Arab girls that get on planes from the middle east and take their bio office as soon as the plane takes off from that middle eastern country? Of course, you're going to have these skewed studies because it's underreported if you get caught in one of those countries You'll go to jail get lashed Why would why would anybody report this who where are you getting this data from saying that this is happening? Because if I was one of those women out there, I definitely would not be reporting it You also talk about marriage polity, but I wanted to ask you What kind of marriage are you trying to preserve? Because from the islamic perspective you see marriage as the unit from which society is built Yeah, but a marriage that you're proposing ensures that a woman is subservient to her husband She can be disciplined and raped according to the Quran According to the hadith if she refuses to let her husband sleep with her the angels will curse her all night long What proof Daniel do you have to show that women who are completely subservient are in the happiest marriages? What studies have shown that wives who are raped or beaten are better off than couples who consider one another as equals And human beings What studies show that marriages where the husband takes extra wives controls the wife Where she's encouraged to stay home get permission to leave the house more successful. I don't understand how this Lends up in a more loving caring family unit as you claim polygamy, for example Has not only demonstrably shown to decrease the well-being of the wives who share that husband But it really damages the children because they're raised in that polygamous household They're all competing for the love of their father who's obviously that all the kids are from different mothers That undermines your whole argument Daniel because you're claiming to make children women society happier But the very structure that you want to employ to do it promotes discontentment and dissatisfaction all around So, yeah, I'm sorry. I might have left Islam, but as a woman the idea of this marriage does not sound appealing at all Um, funnily enough the idea of being under the authority of a man who can beat me rape me legally Chee on me does not seem to be that tantalizing. I'm afraid it's only exacerbated by the fact that under de facto Islam Women don't have the right to divorce. Um, so even with the introduction of khulla things are slightly better But from my own experience, I know how difficult it is the threshold for wanting to leave the marriage is so high And even then you're always encouraged to reconcile despite any abuse So again, Islam's definition of good treatment is shocking beating a wife You're a hero that's keeping their wife in check and it's divinely sanctioned domestic violence You're acting from a god-given right. That's natural in Islam. That would not fly under any other system other than an Islamic one And again, you're arguing for social modesty. Daniel Why why must a woman be invisible because she might attract male attention? The female is blamed for the response of the male. Take accountability. Why can't you show restraint? Again, it just shows this is a man made injunction. God would not have created two sexes in this way Uh, james, do I have any do I have time left minute and 54 seconds? Okay, cool. Uh, yes Daniel female liberation intersectional feminism. It's new its society is adjusting to it But have men actually adjusted? Let's ask that question. Are they taking up more of the burden women are working now more than ever I have a fulfilling career and I wouldn't give it up to sit at home all day Some women want that and that's their choice the operative word again being choice So yes, women like myself would like to strike a healthier balance Between work and family life when and if I do decide to have children of my own But the question is are men shouldering more of the burden? So when you speak of these unhappy women in the west Maybe they are for the very reason that they're having to comply with the pre-existing gender norms As well and try and excel in their career if the unpaid labor and childcare at home is being done Exclusively by one person then yes, I'm pretty sure they would be bloody miserable and it would definitely take its toll I think daniel knows that if women have a choice most women it won't accept what men like daniel are offering Granted some will but that's besides the point give them a choice and let nature decide Saying women are less happy today is based on social data from in the west daniel from about 50 years ago A lot's changed. There's a lot of factors to consider It's not just women's rights that have changed over the last 50 years There's been technological advancements economic slumps and other things So you can't just say we're unhappy happier today because feminism or because women have more rights Also, it does not follow that women are unhappy now because they have more rights. It just doesn't make sense. I want Want to say we're going to jump into the open conversation But do want to say thanks so much folks thrilled about your enthusiasm appreciate all those likes And if you have friends who enjoy these topics Hey, consider sharing this debate with them or on that online debate group or group anywhere over discord twitter You name it. We appreciate your support and with that Daniel and naria the floor is all yours Okay, so let's just get to the last thing you said that women are not at the most oppressed that they've ever been Like this is a documented fact in so many studies jonathan height just released He's from yale or nyu. He just released a Huge article on the levels of depression in young women at the highest levels ever the highest rate of suicidality like suicide thoughts depression Mental illness, how can you deny something that is so it even has a name for it? It's called the happiness of women paradox women's happiness paradox because just like you people say it doesn't make sense But here's the empirical data showing the rates of depression Or are you just going to deny that empirical reality? Daniel, I know you always come with these cute stats and empirical data that matches whatever you have to say But again, what you can't how are you connecting that to what everything that's happening in the west right now? How are you oversimplifying that entire problem? What do you say? First of all, do you acknowledge that it's that's the case? Do you acknowledge that that's you don't acknowledge that people are at the highest levels of depression? I haven't seen these stats that you claim to you can read off anything off the screen I don't need to I'll refer to people the paradox of declining female happiness by Betsy Stevenson You can find it on Yale law review. I believe if you google search it That's the first thing that comes up the paradox of declining female happiness So people can see it on their screens and not think i'm just making it up. You can go to jonathan heights article He was he just published it Here's the reference social media causes negative mental health outcomes and the first paragraph He says that 57 percent of Young women have persistent hopelessness persistent hopelessness. That's almost two-thirds nearly one third have seriously considered suicide Like it's very callous of you for to not acknowledge this empirical reality. I think that this is important It's a global phenomenon. What what is your point social media is a global phenomenon You don't think people in in the east or in arab countries or around the in islamic countries are using social media But it's a problem. It's causing depression. Why are you not interested? So you acknowledge that depression is a all-time highs now But you still want to deny it No, sure. I'll I'll give you that what what you can't you know, what could be the causes of it Like is it do you think it's healthy for young girls to just constantly be exposed to? women using all kinds of makeup and wearing all kinds of The do you think that causes depression or not? Do you think being forced into a marriage at six years old causes depression or not? We're talking about The main topic is veiling not every single feminine issue in islam your gish galloping Why why do you think do you have do you think that there are body standard? Issues that affect a woman's self-confidence or are young girls Understanding of her body. Do you know what anorexia is or bulimia 100%? I agree with that like hyper sexualizing a little girl would give her mad body issues I agree. No, it's just through access to images access to videos access to undress and nudity What about then normalized in society? Daniel, what about being great? Yeah, like I said, this is something that is found in every single pre-modern society every So you want to say that Muslims Muslims want to Muslims want to Just to be sure that I love your guys's enthusiasm, but just to be sure there isn't too much over over speaking over each other Otherwise, they can't hear either side Yeah, so the the thing is that it's Every society not that every society wants to keep women invisible Every society wants to protect this important relationship of marriage And a committed relationship and to do that you have to reduce promiscuity and the thing for men They are visual creatures. They are enticed by A woman's looks women are also enticed, but they're just attracted to different things like a man's status Like a man's wealth and so Islam and all of these other cultures They take measures to reduce the possibility of infidelity because that causes all kinds of problems for society That's why every culture pre-modern culture every religion pre-modern religion had these kinds of practices in place That's what make guarding is and it's something that's biologically rooted Islam is just the only religion that has preserved Vailing as an aspect, but you saw the slides. You saw those pictures. This is well documented Daniel that proves nothing Ergo, it's the truth. No Also, it's funny. You mentioned depression, right? Let's talk about depressive my point with the but just to respond to what you said My point with showing Those that historical practice is to show how common it is. It's not something that's specifically Islamic So you can't you can't depict this as just crazy muslims who did something so bizarre and irrational based on Their revelation. No, it's something that has a logic to it. It's something that many people independently discovered and practiced That's the whole point of that kind of argument and it's not a traditional fallacy. I've never even heard that Appeal to history fallacy. Have you heard of that? Maybe look it up afterwards. Daniel it's like saying every Loathe people discovered and participated in slavery doesn't make it right or okay or that we should bring it back So again argument. Yeah, it was you literally just said that The argument. Let me just repeat it. You have this huge Point as well afterwards. Let's not forget that the which point the depression point Okay, sure The argument is that this is something that has been practiced Actually, you know, you do you can make an evolutionary argument as well. I don't accept evolution But as an atheist do it do you accept evolution? Yes Okay, so why do you think certain practices like mate guarding are found universally? This they're found universally because These are things that according to the evolutionary biologists increase Fitness increase fitness, right? So it increased Yeah, exactly exactly exactly so it was beneficial to the organism Mate guarding is beneficial as a sexual selection Strategy and if you read david bus and all of these other biologists They say that these kinds of like the jealousy that a man feels when his wife goes and Touches and talks to and flirts with another man. That is biological It is something that has developed because according to these biologists Evolutionarily, so there is actually an argument to fitness that you as an atheist have to contend with Why did this kind of practice evolve in human beings? Why is there this biological? Instinct that humans and many other animals have to guard their mates to veil their mates to shield their mates Why why is that the case? You have to explain that you can't just wave it away as a fallacy Daniel so much crazy stuff happens in nature Some moms eat their babies some mate and then kill their partner Okay, some rape the other like there's so much Those things those things are not evolutionarily fit They're not they're not passed down in the same way as certain major practices or certain other How many empires need to have veiled for you to think it's major enough like this is all of them All of them all of them have not veiled so then that your argument falls flat The history actually shows that many of them did The high proportion of them did and you see this in the animal kingdom Like all of that is evidence that you just want to wave away Like if you if you say that mate guarding is invalid Then how can you protect a relationship? Like how can you protect a how can you have a committed long-term relationship? When men and women can just cheat with to their hearts content with no You can cheat and you it's just legalized. How you you can have four wives. That's not cheating. That's marriage It's legalized cheating, right? You get four wives. Your wife doesn't get the same thing. You've trapped this one woman Women don't want to have multiple male partners. They want to have one high status partner. That's not true Yes, it is this it is. Do you know what hypergamy is? I know what hypergamy is. Yeah, what is it? What is it? It is when you basically want to marry up and you want to meet a man who has more to offer than you economically and socially Are men hypergamous? Let me talk. You haven't let me speak in a long time. Okay, I need to counter some of your points There's the thing you said about depression, right? There was a study done Um on the 2020 study on the motives behind the veil done by the journal of research in personality Okay, it was carried out by Illinois Institute of Technology University of Reading A child and adult therapy center in Saudi and Cardiff University Okay, and it showed that if a woman freely wants to wear a veil it is positively associated with life satisfaction research shows that when people have Autonomous motives, right? They feel positive emotions the study comprised of 542 women from Saudi and 249 in Iran Women reported more negative effective experiences wearing a veil when feeling like they had no choice in the matter Perceiving no choice in wearing a veil consistently related to worst Effective experiences wearing a veil to avoid social disapproval showed overall lower life satisfaction How many Muslim women in Muslim countries Daniel can say the commandment to veil is truly I'm purely their free and fair choice. You want it to be um A requirement anyway, right? But we see so women in the west are required to cover their chests and to cover their genitals Do they feel like this lack of a choice is causing them trauma is causing them to have less authenticity or identity Daniel, how are you comparing that to the hijab? Honestly, it's a force. It's it's forced you have to are you like are you advocating? Or do you agree or do you agree? There are nudists, right? But no, no, you women cannot bear their chests. No, it's illegal You cannot bear their chest. They cannot show their genitals and Daniel, have you ever been to a music festival in I That's a silly question. You probably haven't you studied law, right? You know that nudity public nudity is illegal, right? You know that there's certain places where of course you're Answer is it illegal or not is in the uk. Can you go you're in london or something? Can you go into the streets of london? Bear chested and showing your private parts. Is that legal or will the police force you to cover up? No, we have topless protests here. Welcome to the 21st century. No, no in the in general like without like an actual zone For a protest. Can you just go out into the street and bear your chest and genitals? Yes or no? Not like that. No. Okay. So are women traumatized by that? Are women traumatized by that? Are British women traumatized? Why not? They're being forced their choices being taken away No, Daniel, that's that's not it. That's a non sequitur. That makes no sense. Sure. Okay No, I knew you're gonna say that hijab is an extra piece of clothing argument. That makes no sense But listen to this. Hey, we talked about depression You are stifling a woman's individuality completely Do you know that every single research journal on depression states that expressing individuality And creativity allowing yourself to dress how you want expressing yourself can help with depression So muslim men who force women like you to dress strictly one way can actually cause depressive symptoms Since you haven't explained the overarching phenomenon that do you have the highest rates of depression and we have the most Possibility for self self expression You can do all kinds of nudity and pornography online and it's completely legal If we have the highest levels of nudity and ability to express yourself through your naked body Then we should be seeing euphoria and high levels of satisfaction in society among women, but we don't see that Why but that's you assuming that the west is absolutely perfect and I don't concede that it is But I'm not I didn't say that Yeah, no, but you're saying that there's the mental health here is so bad. Therefore islam That I didn't I didn't say that I just wanted you to acknowledge that mental health It would for women specifically is at all time, you know terrible levels What helps explain that part of it is body dysmorphia caused by images Maybe About it's a good Women suffering is is is such a big You say that when you're the one that wants to cage them in or rape them beat them Yeah, this is just called uh adhamana or this is just a straw man that you're creating or did I talk about raping women? Like you're just you're so bigoted. You're so bigoted and islamophobic that when you see a muslim you just say oh You want to rape and beat uh beat women? Like that's your right wing bias. It's really disgusting to see this much I thought I was arguing with someone who has an education in law not a bigot Let's kick it in your perfect sharia world. Would you not be allowed to beat your wives? Right now you're sitting you can't because the police will be on to you But in your perfect world, would you not be allowed to discipline your wife? So spousal discipline is something that exists in every single religion christianity in the bible advocates it Judaism in the hebrew bible advocates it the talmud advocates it buddhism advocates it Says to beat your wife Hinduism advocates it. So this is something that spousal discipline is something that is Prove that buddhism allows for spousal beating. We will I'll prove it to you right now We'll wait Want to remind you folks our guests are linked in the description That includes at the podcast as modern a debate puts all of our debates from youtube on to the podcast And we link our guests including daniel and naria there as well All right, I also have a video on this on my channel if everyone Wants to see this quote-unquote wife beating in every Religion but since she's calling me out for proof so Let's see one buddhist treatise states quote a nun Of 100 years of age shall perform the correct duties to a monk She shall with her hands folded in prayerful attitude rise to greet him and then bow down to him This will be done with appropriate words of salutation Train your girls Alert to cherish the husband always not to not to that man who brings ever her every joy She offers light not will a good wife move to wrath her husband by some spiteful word And she reveals all reveres all whom her husband honors for she is wise deaf nimble Up the time she minds his wealth amid his folks at work and sweetly Orders all a wife like this who is who with her husband's wish and will complies Is born again where lovely divas dwell And then the buddha is sated as quoted as saying are impure foul smelling frightening dangerous Women they betray their friends their wrathful hostile of virulent venom double-tongued and they betray friends for the most part They are adulterous He also states women are lustful profligate vile and degraded Why be passion tossed for a vile woman? If you look at the thomasat from thailand the religious law buddhist religious law It advocates polygamy slavery sex with slaves go and look at the thomasat That's another legal treatise She which quotes as she the meaning of the wife should be well admonished well admonished and only the open palm of the hand Used meaning to strike her This is well documented the buddha is himself. Is this from the saints in the buddha or not? It's I read you the buddha statements about women being vile venomous snakes and he advocated It's not the buddha himself saying the thomasat is based on the buddha's teachings Yeah, but is that a quote from the buddha himself or is that you asked for a buddhist text An authoritative buddhist text and I gave you more than enough buddha advocated it the way muhammad did but okay The buddha advocated leaving women entirely the buddha advocated abandoning your wife and your Children for the sake of achieving nirvana. That's what the buddha Just you know zen buddhism is advocating leaving your family for that purpose So it's actually more than beating it's like you can leave your family to starvation I do want to one before we go further because I know you've got a round in the chamber ready to fire nirya But I do want to redirect us just to be a more central to the topic. The other thing is folks We cannot take any more questions. We've had a short q&a tonight We potentially will have another debate as this one is people have been responding to this I expected it to be positive, but it is overwhelmingly positive So maybe we'll do a part two, but I do have to tell you folks that for tonight We do have to do a short q&a. So we cannot take any more questions Please don't super chat. Don't don't do any more questions. We just can't take them anymore But going back to you nirya in terms of like I said returning to the kind of the central thesis of the debate Yeah, sure. I just daniel I I need you to actually present some evidence that show that forcibly covering women up is what makes a society happier or better Do you have any explicit proof to show that? Because you can't just say like more covering equals less divorce And you can't say that that's the actual case and look at the west because of the mental health crisis It's because of social media and only fans. Where is the proof that forced coverings make marriages happier? Okay, because we've seen whenever women are given a choice. How do you explain this? You are trying to give women something that they don't want most women when given the choice Will not choose to cover up that includes muslim women in countries where it's not forced on them So I mean do you think that people whatever people want should be the law? Like just whatever people subjectively think is good like they should be allowed to do everything We have laws that restrict people's choices and the laws are supposed to be based on what is actually going to help society What is going to help the individual? I'm not I'm not against Yeah, so that's that's the whole evidence I gave in my opening statement That veiling and gender separation reduces promiscuity and this is proven look go to religion and sexual behavior understanding the influence of islamic cultures and religious affiliation for explaining sex outside of marriage by Amy Adamsic in the american sociological review She talks about how the levels of cheating infidelity and promiscuity and std's are far lower in muslim countries and muslim societies Look at the hiv rate in africa muslim countries in africa have the lowest rates of std's and hiv Compared to other countries. Is this due to gender norms gender separation veiling? Yes, absolutely read the studies Daniel, there's also studies should show that women engage in just as much casual sex and everything Regardless what study what study? There are studies that counter your fighting No, you're just saying that but you haven't bring the study that is countering my claim Okay, let me let me get your entire argument, right? You try and and make patriarchy this thing and you use all of this modern data and try and manipulate it to fit this one constraint in history where patriarchy Was the leading phenomenon and it has been for many years But you can see that every society is moving towards a more egalitarian one What you are trying to do is stifle half of the population and take us back to 1400 years ago Well, I know you're not ashamed to say you mentioned it very lightly today harsh punishments But I know you're sully for the hadood punishments. You're even for child marriage, which is crazy But this is gish-galloping you want to bring? And not give me a chance to respond. You want to accuse me of advocating rape? You're accusing me of advocating for rape child marriage being you want to bring everything in the kitchen? Yeah, I just be sure there's not too much interruption to be fair to daniel because it is a controversial point you brought up I do want to give him a brief chance to respond regarding some of those topics And then I do want to give you both a five minute warning We've got to go into the q&a really fast because like I said, we do want to keep that promise of getting you guys out of here at the time we promise so go ahead So you are just throwing out these kinds of accusations because there's no time for me to respond to all of these things So this is a this is called gish-galloping. It's a shotgun tactic in debates And it's it's quite dishonest stay on the topic of hijab We can have a separate debate on these other issues And I have debated them in other debates with other people So yeah, I completely disagree with your characterization. It's just a right-wing bigoted characterization against Muslims and Islam like this is not a Respectable debate tactic that you're using go ahead and explain to me how you can make garb Explain to me how all of these societies have make guarding practices veiling practices It's argued to be something evolutionary because you also see it in the animal kingdom explain how What we're seeing today with the opposite nudity pornography spreading all kinds of images of women Which leads to promiscuity how that can be possibly better for society Daniel first of all, you can't equate make guarding to the hijab that that's also an unfair Like corresponding how that that doesn't work, but also I yeah Okay, first of all, you're saying that you're gonna make women happier by veiling them. Tell me how How is the happier marriage going to occur when a woman is forced to do something? She doesn't want to do an unhappy wife does not Equal a happy marriage, right? Okay. I understand. I'll even concede your point men are natural born protectors. I agree Right women do men have any obligations in marriage Do women have any do women have any obligations in marriage? Yes to be an equal as a teammate partner is not an obligation. What is a duty of a wife? Like does a does a husband have a duty to provide for his wife? Not provide for his children No, just love respect and trust So a man can His wife he can impregnate his wife and he can just leave Uh, and she's stuck with children and he has no consequences. That's you know, that's not Actually what the law says, right? Well, the law in islam says he can if he lives in the gcc of pakistan He can text master charts a lot three times and never see her again Yeah, and it's not he still has to pay child support He still has to take care of the child according to that to his due so islam And the western system acknowledged that there are obligations that there are obligations, right? So men have men have obligations. Do women have any obligations in marriage? That's why we have the law. We don't need islam to do that for us We have women in whatever law it might be western law islamic law. Do women have any obligations in marriage So what do they bring to the marriage? What's it? What's no no because you're setting up three defined ones I'm saying let two people decide for themselves. Why do you have to say the man can't decide for himself I just explained how the man cannot decide for himself He is forced by law to pay for the women that he has with his children He has to be held accountable for the decisions that he makes and the Contractual agreement that he's made to enter into a marriage But I ask you if women have any obligations and you can't think of a single one Yeah, we can just do whatever they want women have the child rearing obligation That's always on the woman. Oh, so they don't have reproductive choice. They can abort whenever they want Up to a certain level. Yes Okay, so then where's what's the obligation? That's the question I know when the man has like left out. She can opt out of rearing the child How I threw abortion How can you it's not every estate in america even permits abortion today? Women in the west are still fighting you agree with those laws and you agree seconds That women should not be allowed to support or adoption. She can just give them up for adoption Well, what what do you mean give them up for adoption? The woman if she doesn't want her child She can abort. Yeah, exactly. That shows you that proves my point She can opt out of raising children in multiple ways through abortion through putting the child up for adoption A man can't do that. Do you know some women? Do you know some women don't even know they're pregnant until like this the seventh month sometimes, you know And that's way past the date of abortion. Do you know how many complications? It's just weird to me that as a man, you're sitting there and saying women have it so easy and we have all A man has all of these obligations that he is obligated to because of the marriage contract, but you can't think of one obligation How dare you sit there or smug because as long as given you absolutely everything Absolutely everything. Yeah, exactly. I know it's no wonder that you can't even you can't even think of one thing that a woman is required to do in a marriage Man has all of these obligations All right, I hate to do it, but just because we have so many questions I do want to move as fast as we possibly kind of we do have a limited time This one coming in from do appreciate it want to say our guests are linked in the description really do appreciate them They are the lifeblood of the channel folks. So huge. Thank you to daniel and ria. We're going to jump into the q&a right now Folks, we really sorry. Do we get a closing or not at all? It's fine if we don't Okay, negative, but I do want to say folks. Holy smokes. Yeah, we have so many questions. It's crazy We cannot take any more questions and that's been the case for like I don't know 15 minutes 10 minutes something like that. Yes sure to king says is it true when living under sharia? And by the way, we really do want questions to be focused on the topic So They said is it true when living under sharia? And you refuse to no longer wear the hijab as a muslim that you can be killed because covering is a Binding scholarly consensus that would constitute apostasy No, there is nothing like that if a woman decides not to veil. She will face all kinds of shaming She will you know, just like a woman who in the west decides to go around topless at work or you know acts It dresses promiscuously in the workplace. You have all kinds of dress codes in schools HR has all kinds of policies in every single company on how a woman Can dress and what part of her body can she can show and not show if people violate those dress codes and those norms There is social sanction. There are consequences for that that exists in every society Including in islam, but it's not a death penalty This is why we see that veiling has been the dominant practice throughout history in many diverse societies Independently of each other because they all came to the same conclusion that veiling is an excellent way To prevent promiscuity to prevent infidelity to prevent children outside of marriage who have to suffer because I've got to move I've got to give you I can give you a chance to wrap up Daniel But then I got to go to the next one. We've got so many questions Well, give me a chance to wrap up instead of her interrupting me while I'm talking The question was for me. So if I'm going to get all these questions about islam Then I should get the opportunity to answer them without getting interrupted Yeah, but you can go ahead No, it's not waffling Yeah, so like I said the reason that you see this practice throughout societies is because it works And there's a clear benefit to it and part of in the west still includes some of these veiling practices But it's going away in favor of this porn culture This one coming in from do appreciate it They say the moment you take off the veil and walk a path of promiscuity You're just telling everyone that you're trash even the western man We already know what he says about you in their rap songs your own doing. I think that's for you norea Oh, was that a more of a comment at me or was that a question? I don't think they mean that you're being permissuous I think they're just saying that this is about women in general take off the veil Oh Yeah, no, I mean that's the first that's the first accusation We've always got oh you left islam or you took off your job to go and do this It's exactly the same narrative that daniel pedals They don't understand that people can live fulfilling why lives just by having empowered choice Daniel I could go out in a bikini tomorrow or wear in a buyer the fact is that I have a choice To do that i'm not going to end up like marcia amini who I can't believe you so cheaply Like said that the way she died wasn't even real, but yeah, that that's a complete like Weird narrative they pedal about people who take off their hijab the fact is many of those girls were Coerced to wear it in the first place There's hardly any families where there's not societal pressure or familial pressure or duress Behind wearing it or the the ostracization from society like daniel was talking about the strict punishments The I don't know what what he called it societal Moles or whatever you said, but yeah, it's not the case this one coming in from daniel's buddy harris sultan says Thank you daniel for proving muslim men with our chaotic cultures and animals like gorillas Is daniel going to justify human sacrifice too? And we'll give you a chance to respond to that because it's not quite on topic Yeah, I don't even know what it means like human sacrifice like what are you talking about? the fact that atheists like harris sultan and noria and whatever other loser their idea of humanity is We are evolved apes. So the fact that apes gorillas chimpanzees All of these different animals have this kind of make guarding behavior including veiling You know forms of veiling with your with the animals body or with nesting You have to explain this as an atheist like why is this common? Why is this evolutionarily adaptive? So don't put the bird don't like call islam ape like or whatever. That's your you know belief system of in evolution So it's like a self self goal This one coming in they say today you will you tell us where you stand Do you stand with the believers or stand with the Munak munific queen Munafikine, please do tell us. Oh enemies of a la What's a munific queen? He means hypocrite. Okay This one from Harris sultan strikes again says a study published in the journal of sex research in 2010 found that men and women were equally likely to Engage in casual sex. Why did you ignore this study daniel? They were equally likely to engage in casual sex actually Women are more likely to engage in casual sex in the west and the liberalized west Why because of all kinds of technologies like tinder if you look at the stats Women are much more involved in casual sex because they can just Use apps to get a white one-night stands whenever they want. It's men who are actually not Getting any access to sex a large percentage of men around 50 percent are Basically celibate because they can't find a partner. This is a tragedy. This is something that's extremely depressing for men And islam has a solution for that kind of Celebsi forced celibacy that people have to endure What's creating this situation is feminism. It's empowerment of women. It's nudity It's pornography that women can just go and hook up with effort with whomever that they want They are getting much more sexual access than men are so this study Harris sultan can't even cite a study properly like give the full name of what it was But it's based on you know, it's contradicted by a ton of other evidence Somer, thanks for your question says daniel mentions that the veil is not a piece of cloth But a term that's symbolic of gender relations Can conservative gender relations be preserved without the piece of cloth or similar garment? How? Yeah, because mate guarding is a large phenomenon that includes not just veiling like the piece of cloth is part of it but also gender separation And uh, there are societies that didn't have veiling. I never claimed that every single society Had veiling the majority of them did but even the ones that didn't such as certain hunter and gatherer societies They didn't necessarily have the veil because that kind of technology wasn't developed at that time But they had gender separation They did have gendered spaces like the woman's tent or the woman's domicile versus where men could gather So this kind of gender separation Has always existed mate guarding has always existed because it is a biological phenomenon veiling though is is a very effective way of of doing that because women will have to move around society and Come in contact with strange men in order to avoid temptation and in order to avoid promiscuity veiling is a an excellent way to prevent those kinds of harms that can come to society through that behavior You got it. This one coming in from Abdul Rahman says out of curiosity. What qualifications does Norea have regarding Islam. Did she read pamphlets to get knowledge like? Phi expert Harris snailton I think they I don't know what phi expert means feak expert I think he means thick. Yeah, which is like. Yeah, the islamic jurisprudence and stuff Yeah, I read the biggest pamphlet the biggest scam of islam the quran. Uh, so yeah And the hadith that's my expertise I'm gonna read questions for norea first because we have so many questions that daniel If you each have to leave in nine minutes, I understand If we have time norea, it sounds like you are more time bound or kind of like time restricted that you might have to leave If you have to leave My I would like to still save the questions that are for daniel for once you have to leave norea I will promise to ask I'll ask daniel right now if you'd be willing to only respond to those questions without Jabbing you while you're not here and I'm sure daniel is willing to oblige And that way a lot because there's so many questions that a lot of people are going to be like, hey james Like what's the deal man? And so we'll let you go norea. So In nine minutes before I ask these last questions that are for you in particular sommer says Norea claims men and women are equal without justifying it. How are they equal? Obviously, they have different complimentary competencies physically and emotionally Do you mean legally equal or spiritually equal? In what way are they equal? Yes, legally spiritually if you want, I don't really like that word But as human beings the very fact that the human beings makes them equal Um in and everybody's eyes so that yeah, of course biologically we're built differently But uh, nothing like the claims that islam says well women are deficient in religion Um amongst other things that we need two witnesses as opposed to one male witness the way that the way that islam degrades women Uh, there's never a chance for gender equality. So yeah I did just because I think uh his question is I think he was meaning like How like if you let's say for example, if you took scores on men's and women's Verbal verbal abilities like IQ women tend to be a bit higher than men And then on quantitative skills like men tend to be on average a little bit higher I think he's saying like is there's what's the physical empirical variable that they're like Matched on or would you say it sounds like you might be saying You're saying like in the eyes of the law. They're deemed as legal. That's what you're maybe saying Yeah, just for the nature of this debate because it's more about like hijab Which was veiling which was regressive towards women. So for the intents and purposes of the conversation legally, especially yes, uh, obviously Like the human mind is complicated men and women are built differently in various things and you know, some men They operate more from the right side of their brain and they're more Well-suited to certain subjects as you said, but again, there's no there's no difference in our processing or IQ capabilities per se across the board You got it. Khaled ibrahim says for norea. Have you read a single book of thick I think you guys said it was pronounced Yeah, it's thick. Yeah. No, I would never waste my time reading that stuff. I mean I've read snippets of it for videos I've made and the way it talks about intercourse with Miners and things like that. It's too much of a dark read. It's I would not recommend it to anybody This one coming in debate Islam, but don't read the source Yeah, well, I mean if you want to become like a master in child marriages I'm sure you already are then that's what you need that manual for to stick to pamphlets This one coming in from emory Emory king says this is five dollars for norea to speak for a minute without daniel interrupting her Wow Well, is there anything that from the debate norea that you maybe didn't get to touch on and that you were like Hey, I really wanted to address this point But time ran out because I know that the open dialogue was cut short Oh, thank you so much for whoever sent that super chat. I really appreciate it I do feel like daniel did get quite a lot more time to talk over me You also just threw out words like uh, hypergamy and stuff. We never even really got to go into it Um, but again, even if you want to say that that is like the biological tendency of women You know as well that that was a survive survival mechanism at a time for women when marriage was the only thing that determined the woman's status in life and in fact Um, when the gender revolution began in the mid 20th century, they also thought it would bring about the end of hypergamy So again, you are conflating this with greed and trying to paint women in a negative light for even wanting to do this I don't understand why you don't expect that some women would be ambitious And we wouldn't want men to bring something of equal value to the table if not more And even if this is the case why you're not just letting the natural trajectory Play out. Um, it just seems weird that if you think this is a natural desire Women, yes daniel once they become more educated. They will desire more Um, especially when they're looking for a life partner to settle down with Your idea of a woman wanting and not settling is very selfish And again, I'm saying that it's because islam is catered to everything you want as a man Um, so it's not surprising but just look at what you're asking for The more you see what islam offers you see how women in afghanistan and iran are pushing back Against exactly what you were advocating for But yeah, thank you james You gotta respond to the the point about hypergamy like it shows that you don't know what you're talking about Hypergamy is a woman's desire for someone who has higher in status It didn't go away with the sexual revolution women still including you probably you want to marry someone Who's bigger and taller than you who is more wealthy than you who has a more muscles than you Like do you want that in a spouse or do you want someone who's smaller than you? More muscles than me. Well, okay. That's hypergamy. So hypergamy Hypergamy didn't go away Hypergamy didn't go away with the feminist revolution You understand that what i'm saying is that there was a point in time where women had no choice But to rely on that when everything was determined by the man you married You just admitted you just had to go to we're moving beyond that now. We're women. How are you? How are you moving beyond it? You just said that that's what you personally desire is a man with more muscles than you So how have you moved beyond it? As a society, we don't need men in the same way daniel. That's what i'm trying to say from the 20th Why do you need a man with more muscles? No, you're being so childish. I'm not even responding to that You know, we're biologically built different. How is that even like how does that make sense to you a man? If he has less muscle than me, is he what? You you need to move beyond it You need to marry a man who's smaller than you weaker than you like he's under five foot a soy boy You need to find a soy boy so you can move beyond hypergamy because society doesn't need it anymore Why don't you move? Why don't you move beyond these hateful boys? Respond at least the young eternal boys you're waiting for in jenna daniel. That's what you're referring to sure This one coming in from and on your mouse says and I think this is supposed to be sincere Even though I know it's a it can come off as a barbed question They say should a woman be allowed to lead a country if she happens to be having her cycle I think they're asking And I think that they're actually sincere Even though it is a offensive question I think you're asking that with a response because that's a very very lame question daniel This has to be one of your followers surely Like only only a muslim could ask the question like that honestly I mean do you find the like The period is something shameful. Why can't you answer that question? Not at all. I don't find it Then why then why can't you dignify it with a response? No, you're not gonna round me into this corner because I think that's a disgustingly stupid Is menstruation You find an unclean daniel the rest of us don't it's natural again Well, yeah, it is natural. You're the one who said you you don't want to dignify it with a response. I agree. It's natural Oh, if it's natural, then why are women considered to have be less religious because of it or have less iman No, what is that from you're just making stuff up now You don't know the women women have less iman because they have Yes, the prophet said you can't fast or pray when you're menstruating therefore your deficient in religion. Is that doesn't mean less Like you don't understand the They have less iman. Oh my goodness. It does translate. Don't why are you lying to the public? Why do you lie? Where's iman in that hadith? Point out in that hadith. Do you even know air? We can end with a more one that's more uh Friendly they say hakeem hakeem. Jai appreciate it says noria. You are a brave woman best wishes sister Oh, thank you. I know daniel. I don't need to know that colonized language. Thank you very much What I'd like to do is noria if you have to take off totally understandable Like I said, I'm sorry that I broke the promise of wrapping up when we would be wrapping up So that's my fault. I apologize for that If you have to take off technical problems totally understandable I can assure you like I said like let's make a deal daniel that when noria is not here I'm sure you won't uh take jabs at noria and you'll just stick with the questions from the actual people in the chat Because there are plenty of questions that you can uh take jabs at instead of noria You promise daniel or are you doing that? Yeah I I won't I won't mention you. I'll mention feminism and probably and liberalism, but that's what I always talk about Okay, cool. Cool. Cool. Anyway, this was fun. Thank you both Thank you very much All right. Bye take care Thanks, noria appreciate it. Have a good night and I have to be fair daniel some of these questions are probably going to be barbed toward you And so i'm going to adjust the screen and while I do that. I want to say folks Do want to say while i'm adjusting the screen so it's a little bit easier to see Want to remind you that modern day debate is a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics We hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you're from Whether you be muslim atheist christian you name it We are appreciative of you being here and I also really quick Want to show this photo or I should say this painting of what we do appreciate it This is that you could consider this an intermission before we go into the bloodbath of the rest of the questions for daniel As I said daniel some of these are going to be barbed. I have to be fair that I have to read the offensive ones To you just like I read the the offensive one for in rio Which I like I said I I do think that was that the person was trying to they maybe have a Opinion on the thing that was asked about such that they were asking a it wasn't I didn't think it was a troll But let me just readjust the screen two moments want to say thanks so much for all of your support This is one of the most liked debates In terms of like our live viewership right now people have enjoyed this debate immensely So we want to say thanks for your support appreciate all those likes folks and I'm going to jump into these questions Oh, I did say I would show you this painting you guys can let me know if this looks like me This is a portrait someone did this this painting that they had said james I want you and you can see it. I don't have it in the zoom window So i'm sorry about that If you're watching on daniel stream if you really want to see the painting It's a beautiful painting a tremendous painting you can see here here at the live stream over at modern data You can always keep both tabs open if you're watching live at more than one channel And so thank you very much for sending and making that painting of me. I'm very flattered. I wish I looked like that That's a true chat as daniel would say So i'm going to jump into These questions apostate prophet one of your greatest rivals and says daniel numerous research research Suggests from lankford de far and gillian Find that sexual repression and shame lead to hyper sexuality lower happiness Lower confidence and possibly even increased crime. How is that good? Can you give me the reference again like the yeah, they said uh in parentheses lankford and then de far It's so it's dh u f f a r and then Gilly and which I think is g it's a little my eyes aren't as good as they used to be I think it's g i l i l a n d In parentheses and what was the name of the article? He didn't mention that but he quoted he said that they find that sexual repression And shame lead to hyper sexuality in other words, you know You know what that means and lower happiness and lower confidence and possibly crime increasing That's all he gave me Yeah, I don't know about crime increasing because of repressed sexual shame Like we can look at the crime stats in muslim countries. We can look at again the std rates We can look at the rate of promiscuity in societies that veil So i'm not seeing that where this study Lankford de far and gillian I'm still trying to look for it where it says that This leads to increase in crime and it can you can have hyper sexuality in the confines of your marriage in islam and it's been shown that Conservative couples have more sex in their marital relationship than single liberal People so this is something that has been Established empirically and when you look at veiling societies in particular again go to amy adam zik The site study that I studied it's a very broad study looking at many different countries muslim countries christian countries and so forth the levels of Infidelity cheating std's all of these negative Associations that come with promiscuity the negative factors that come with promiscuity those are decreased in muslim societies and I'm not claiming it's just because of veiling. It's because of this entire system of gender separation and stigmatizing basically casual sex Stigmatizing infidelity and backing it up with social shame and stigma and so forth You got it. Thank you very much for this question coming in from harris sultan says Muslim men equal beetles and gorillas in parentheses or I should say in quotes He says that this is a quote from from you daniel. I don't understand I don't understand it either the beetles like these are just examples from the animal kingdom Many examples like with insects with mammals with reptiles like mate guarding It's just unbelievable that atheists have no clue about these basic facts about biology and the animal kingdom But they claim to be evolutionists. So they know that okay. Yeah, people are evolved from apes But they literally know nothing about the animal kingdom or apes themselves So it's I think its own goal whenever they bring up chimpanzees or apes The whole point of citing these animal studies is to show that there's a biological basis for these kinds of practices Islam is not just imposing something that is unheard of Or that is something delete deleterious or Bad for women or men It's a practice if it were bad if it's something that were problematic for the benefit of an individual woman or for a family or for a society Then why did it Spread like why was there such a dispersion? And spread of the genes for mate guarding like the evolutionary explanation is that mate guarding is Adaptive it brings fitness. That's why it's spread throughout the animal kingdom and throughout human society So the burden burden is on the atheist to explain how evolution Went wrong how you know all of these evolutionary processes went wrong to create a situation where Something that is bad for people is actually adaptive and is creating fitness and has evolved This one coming in from do appreciate your question. Here are rodriguez Says daniel use history and independent study to make his case You had a fan out there daniel this one from es 1002 says on Reddit x muslim. There's a video of a kid that was beaten for not wearing her hijab right Why does a little girl need to cover herself daniel? Why? I don't know what that video is or what's referring to like if someone is getting beat by for not wearing hijab. Yeah, that's um It's like violently beat then that's a problem And I don't necessarily endure endorse like physically hurting someone But again, like these things are exaggerated into hoaxes as we saw multiple times in this debate We need to actually see the facts like you're saying someone was spanked like a little girl was spanked How do we know it was because of not mailing like Like unless you're just completely against any kind of discipline like any kind of spanking and what have you Okay, that's a separate argument but You know many societies except spanking even american western society has had That notion of discipline for children for a spouse for whatever This one from chic de wood says do veils protect muslim women from being sold by their family members To other muslim men for temporary marriage and sex in parentheses muta I'm not an expert on the requirements of multi marriage. That's a shia thing. I'm not shia So this one from nancy Abdelman says daniel is the is daniel is the elia the islamic eliot rogers. Who's eliot rogers? Some incel radical You got it. Yeah, show it to king says was my pre-debate super chat received I did I think I read that last theos. I'll double check says did mate guarding fail with muhammad who married an 11 year old I don't know what that's supposed to prove like again child marriage Minor marriage is something that we're going to debate on this channel very soon And it's something that again has been practiced throughout history In every pre-modern society basically every advanced civilization roman civilization greek civilization Um, even extending into asia chinese civilization japanese just it's so ubiquitous So we have to get into the details of that. That's not what this debate Was about but I have to answer this question every single debate. Why because these NPCs can't think of like one or two objections against islam and they just spam it over and over and over again You got it. This one coming in from latheos and I do want to say folks I gave that question to daniel. Like I said because uh I also gave a very offensive question to norea But we do want to redirect it so that the questions are on topic latheos says did mate guarding we got that abdual Thank you very much for your question got that one. That was one we read to norea earlier This one says thank you Hmm Okay, that's not quite the type we're looking for hero says if the hijab becomes a target for assaults on muslim women Should muslim women be given the choice to abandon it daniel in order to maintain their safety If if what happens if hijab if the hijab becomes a target or in other words people are using it as A target for assaulting people. Oh, okay, then should women have the option to remove their uh Remove the hijab for their own safety. There have been scholars who Said this and I think it's valid if there is an imminent danger that a muslim woman is going to get assaulted If she wears the head veil Or the hijab then there is a dispensation. She can avoid wearing it If she has to like she has no choice because the priority is to preserve your life And to preserve your physical well-being That takes priority over the hijab In islam so scholars have Given that fatwa or that ruling that yes, if that's the if that's the situation And that's like a conditional you have to see if that's the conditional that that's the case if i'm going to wear hijab I will be attacked there is a high chance of death Which in some certain countries like in central asia when you had communism And these communist regimes. Yeah, you literally would be killed if you wore hijab So in that kind of situation it becomes permissible to not wear it You got it this one from daniel over is says when harvard Okay, it's more of an attack. This one says be happy. Okay, that's another attack. Apostate prophet says daniel numerous We got that one Hello. Hello. It says apostate prophet. Nobody asked. All right, this one from yaha osmond We're speaking about apostate prophet. Like I did bring up some more studies on this. So Unmarried men engage in more crime. So the biggest predictor Of happiness and avoiding crime Is actually being married when men get married and they have children They don't engage in crime. So societies that encourage marriage and facilitate early marriage Result in less crime in society. So this has been cited in in numerous articles like is marriage the key to long-term happiness This is an article you can google is published on medical news And then fatherless single mother home statistics Also show the same kind of thing children growing up in single parent family households like all of these Uh statistics show that when you have single men who are not attached to a family in one household They're more likely to engage in crime and create all kinds of violence in society That's why we see prime rates going up in many places in the western world You got it this one coming in from do appreciate your question Yeah Yeah, Osman says isn't there a superior power dynamic for women in terms of sexuality just like for men in terms of violence And shouldn't there be restrictions? Yeah, absolutely There should definitely be restrictions And that's why I was trying to argue in this debate like marriage for example Or any kind of relationship requires give and take both sides have to have certain obligations Certain duties and they also are able to receive certain benefits. That's what a reciprocal exchange is and that's what all relationships are based on So when we talk about marriage Islam has a very clear Differentiation between the husband and the wife the husband is obligated to provide For his wife whether he wants to or not like if he fails to provide for his wife There will be Islamic legal consequences and the judge can actually rule against him if he fails to provide for his wife and kids That's an an obligation. That is he's being forced to do that. So are there any What about his wife does she have any obligations? Yes, she has an obligation to be a loving wife to Give him sexual access when he wants it That doesn't mean that this is marital rape as you know, right wing Trolls will say that just means that she has an obligation If she fails to meet that obligation for no good reason just out of spite She doesn't want to give her husband access To sex then she becomes legally liable That doesn't mean he can go and beat her black and blue and cause her physical harm You know and and Islam is very clear on the kinds of steps that he can take to pressure her like, okay Fine, you're not going to give me sexual access that i'm not going to talk to you or i'm not going to sleep in the same bed Like you're causing this kind of Rift in the relationship because you're not meeting your end of the bargain in the same way that if a man Was in a marriage he commits to a wife and to protect her and her children and provide for them He just decides to unilaterally. Oh, i'm not gonna pay for anything. I'm not gonna pay for rent this month I'm not gonna buy food for this month that causes serious harm to the relationship and there needs to be consequences for that Every legal system creates those kinds of consequences Um, unfortunately in the modern western liberal system all the consequences are on men All the consequences and obligations are on men whereas women have this kind of accountability free No fault divorce. They can just deny a husband like yeah, no, you're not going to get any sex No, i'm not going to do anything around the house. I'm not going to contribute to anything in this marriage And guess what i'm going to divorce you and i'm going to take half your property I'm going to take half of your possessions and i'm going to get custody of your children So this is a very unjust immoral system. It's causing all kinds of Uh disasters for society Islam has a more balanced system as a better a superior system where each side has obligations There are consequences their accountability if you don't meet your obligations when you make a commitment for marriage That has to mean something just like any other contract No fault divorce that we find in the feminist west is a destruction of that very basic justice Uh that you know keeps society together You got this one coming in from do appreciate it Harris sultan said a study published in the journal of social science and medicine in 2016 Found that women in the united states reported higher levels of subjective well-being E.g. Happiness than women did in the 1970s Yeah, again, like there are so many studies that are showing this epidemic of depression epidemic of suicide epidemic of all kinds of negative subjectivity That people feel like go to jonathan heights article that i just cited in the debate It was published two or three days ago And it shows the the Shocking levels of depression and suicide that is affecting women So one study that i haven't looked at is not going to counter dick contradict all of that other data You got it this one coming in from do appreciate your question as well Sammy veda says suicidality does not mean oppression Men and women both have increases in depression. That's not old pressure You know there's oppression when when people are committing suicide. Why why are they suffering from such debilitating? Mental health crises that they want to kill themselves when you see a society of people that at a high rate are trying to kill themselves Like if you see 50 percent of people are killing themselves Normal person will think well, there's something wrong in that society Something has been affecting these people to drive them to such an extreme consequence And it's most likely you know, someone is pulling the string Someone is introduced something to society that is Oppressive oppression just means that you are preventing people from Pursuing what they naturally need People need loving relationships people need loving committed long-term relationships people need family People need women often have this desire to reproduce. They want children These are all biological needs that people have when you strip that away because of all kinds of social policies Because of all kinds of ideologies like feminism and liberalism and so forth Atheism then people are going to be more and more depressed. This is the paradox. They have more freedom They have more choice But they're suffering from all kinds of mental health problems and that's because people need more than just choice Yeah, choice is good. It's good for people to have free choice But that's not the end all be all of life Sometimes you need a family sometimes you need marriage, but that requires a restriction of free choice And that's what islam offers, but people want to criticize Oh, islam doesn't allow 100% free choice 100% unlimited kindness to women etc etc So this these are criticisms against islam when this is exactly the solution to the kinds of depression And suicidality and problems that we find in these western societies This one coming in from harris sultan says we got that one this one from oh, samir farsane Sorry that i missed your question for norea before she left So i'm sorry about that brother i meant to catch all the questions for norea, but i did miss your sorry Jared ball says how would depression among muslim women be measured at any given point in history or today? I think it would be go ahead We're just looking at The statistics from today um, that's you know, that's the basis of the stats that i'm citing because obviously the metrics are not gonna be The same if you look at historical societies. So i'm you know, that's an unknown My guess is that the rate of depression is going to be less Why because when we look at the limited amount of data that we have from the past 80 years or 70 years or maybe even far back in the 100 years in the west as society becomes less traditional as Family ties break down as marriage Becomes less and less common more and more people are not able to find committed relationships Then that that is correlated that is directly correlated with Depression and when it comes to social media, that's not even a correlation. That's causation and causation has been proved that social media usage creates depression so If we just extrapolate based on those trends Then we can say that other societies we're not committing, you know This level of suicide weren't committing this kind of drug abuse Drugs have existed in human society for a long time, but we see all of these metrics going up And atheists just want to put their heads in the sand and they want to ignore the problem and keep Repeating the same cliched talking points about oh freedom is so wonderful. It's the answer to everything You got it. This one coming in from do appreciate your question Chango says is it possible that muslim men are just bad at meeting women? Are the veils compensating for something? Looking Thank you for that question Muslims are marrying much more than non muslims Muslims and muslim societies have far higher rates of marriage Then than current liberal societies and it's not just you know in muslim societies It's quite high rate of marriage The vast majority of women are married by the time they reach 30 35 And men also it's a very high rate of marriage. So this is not like some kind of point against islam It's a point in favor of islam that we can actually get married in a much Simpler and easier way whether it's through arranged marriage or family network type of marriages And muslims have experience with this. Unfortunately, what's happening is that muslims are adopting feminism They're adopting liberalism and they they're westernizing and now we see marriage rates in the muslim world Are dropping and this is a big problem That needs to be addressed actually but the problem is with feminism with liberalism if we continue to be traditional Religious societies including the west if the west returned to a kind of christian Traditionalism or maybe even became a muslim Society marriage rates would go up because Islam and and these religious traditions protect that institution of marriage You got it this one coming in from harris sultan again Rape happens in nature as well. The whole point of creating society is the betterment of humans Not to have quote-unquote survival of the fittest Yeah, so you I mean this is funny for an atheist to say like we don't want survival of the fittest like what other morality do you have? Like what other moral system are you appealing to? That is that is the atheistic metric is survival of the fittest But that being said you find all kinds of practices and nature that doesn't mean that they're most fit like so Yeah, you do find organisms that will miss will eat their own offspring but it's not something that is proliferating through Through reproduction. It's not an an adaptive trait because you can have dysfunctional behavior in nature You can have anomalies in nature But when it comes to these kinds of practices that are so common, they're not anomalous It's not just a one-off. It's something that you see in every single species or the majority of species Then you have to explain that and explain why that is evolutionarily adaptive You got to thank you very much for this question coming in from Some of your far saying says we got that one some are some are rouse says Daniel argues for pair bonding in humans, but defends men having multiple wives. How do you square that circle Daniel? Yeah, so just because a society is polygamous, which by the way 93 percent of humans Human societies have been polygamous According to the ethnographic atlas That doesn't mean that every man in society has multiple wives The actual rate of polygyny in any given polygynous society is anywhere from two to five percent So the vast majority of men are in in the kind of pair bond But when you have a polygynous polygynous society There is leeway for the men who are high status to have up to four wives And that is a very important feature of Islamic societies and these other traditional polygynous societies that is lacking in the liberal West instead men who are high status in the liberal western society Cheat on their wives. They have they're not they are polygynous, but outside of marriage So you have all of these baby mamas all of these groupies all of these women who are sleeping with the high powered politicians and the actors and the you know sports athletes professional athletes and This is a Stain on society if you had marriage or multiple marriage polygyny Then those high status men could have multiple women and that gives That gives a lot of benefit to society overall You got to thank you very much for this question coming in from jared ball says Daniel if you don't support evolution, why is your comparison for quote-unquote mate guarding based on primate behavior? So it's not just based on primate behavior. It's also based on wealth of historical data So I don't need to rehash all of that But the problem why I bring in evolutionary argument is that when you engage in a debate you have to Argue on the basis of common ground So when I debate these atheists and these liberals and these feminists they all agree with evolution so, okay, let's take an evolutionary argument that you agree with and See where the logic leads see where the conclusion leads And this is this is where you know the certain atheists have trouble Reconciling the empirical facts and the scientific facts of you know supposed evolution With their liberal morality with their their liberal worldview because the the natural world Is very illiberal the natural world is extremely illiberal. It's anti-liberal. It's anti-feminist And so this is a huge contradiction and clash in the worldview of atheists And they never want to confront that And honestly engage with that and they just engage in hand-waving tactics And no matter what you try to tell them to explain that look you're being inconsistent They don't want to acknowledge it. So that's why I bring it up in all of these debates Abdul Rahman says the majority of scholars like Curtubi, let me know if I'm saying it right say Marital rape is not allowed. Uh, let's see. Okay. That's actually Kavi mom says Daniel, do you believe your worldview contributes to or alleviates the depression that women feel? Of course it alleviates it. Of course it alleviates it because it provides what women want Biologically they want marriage. They want long-term committed partner. They want uh, they're hypergamous So they want a man who has higher status was bigger muscles than they do Islam facilitates that but the kind of Liberal west western model the feminist model of just free sex promiscuity This literally leads to the depression of women. I'm cited in multiple studies about how women who Engage in casual uncommitted sex experience that as trauma They might not admit it. They might not admit. Oh, I I feel I feel empty inside. I feel devastated by what I've just done But all of the empirical evidence shows that they do they do feel very bad And have all this kind of regret for that kind of sexual activity So of course a religion that prevents that is going to be better for women Whether it be Islam whether it be Judaism whether it be christianity. I agree I think that if society was christian if I would much prefer that and I think society would be much better women would be much much better off if You know the west returned to a kind of traditional christianity depression of women would go way down because women would get what they want Which is having these marriages having children living Very happy fulfilled lives as wives as traditional wives and those kinds of relationships You got it. Thank you very much for your question coming in from samuel bass says Question for daniel the law for nudity is equal for both genders in the uk Are you advocating for the burqa for men? Well, as I said like men and women are different their attraction What they offer in a relationship is different what men seek from women is different from what women seek from men So these are very clear biological differences to treat For the law to treat men and women exactly the same despite these kinds of major differences Between the two sexes would be injustice. It would be oppression you know, that's that's that's uh The definition of oppression because again you have these needs that people have based on gender differences But the law the liberal feminist law is treating everyone Exactly the same islamic law does not treat the genders the same It treats them differently because it acknowledges the differences in biology the differences in psychology the different the cognitive differences between men and women the bodily differences So this is you know, this is something that islam acknowledges other traditional religions have historically Acknowledged but unfortunately traditional religions have are suffering from amnesia and they're just liberalizing at a rate That's unfortunate islam is the holdout that is sticking to its traditions and ultimately like we can ask will women veiling make them more or less happy and The thing is we don't care only about what makes women happy Like let's imagine that veiling actually makes women more depressed imagine Well, what does what effect does it have for the rest of society? What effect does it have on families? What effect does it have on children? What effect does it have on the elderly? What effect does it have on men? Like does does that not count as part of the equation? We have to have a holistic view not this kind of Dynocentric women-centered view of oh, what is going to make women happy at all times? I just believe that veiling does actually make women happier, but it also does a much more In improving society and benefiting society as well We have to have that holistic picture as opposed to women-centric. We only care what makes women What gives what affords women the most amount of choice with the least amount of accountability? That's the kind of liberal feminist model that's destroying society This one from Harris sultan says that's some buddhist saying not buddha himself Can't remember what is Harris sultan ignorant about buddhism because buddha the buddha wasn't just one person He had different manifestations according to buddhist theology throughout history So according to buddhist theology, you can have multiple figures who are the buddha the manifestation of buddha At or the avatar of buddha at a particular time in history So I don't think Harris sultan knows anything about buddhism. He doesn't know anything about islam He just reads pamphlets about islam and then tries to have a whole career based on bashing islam Maybe don't get into other religions because it seems you're deeply ignorant about them This one coming in from brian w says daniel the traditional muslim dress for men and women had A practical purpose to protect from sand and dust However here in the states it does not apply So why wear it here as it just serves to set you apart from other people who are not muslim Again, it's a practice that has Existed in many societies that didn't have sand muslim societies are not just societies in the desert muslims have been veiling in spain in andalus in north africa in the in the tropical parts of The subcontinent in southeast asia malaysia indonesia Um, like this is a really bigoted understanding of islam only being limited to the desert for hundreds of years Literally for hundreds of years over a millennia muslims have lived in all kinds of tropical regions and and non Aerid desert regions throughout the world the tundras of central asia muslims have have lived there in amtolia muslims have lived and civilized and and Thrived in all of these different parts of the globe and they've practiced hijab They've practiced veiling as you see muslims practicing it today and many non muslims Convert to islam and they take up veiling as well in in the united states Listen from Canusa pax says dangle isn't there disagreement between muslims on what covering is required hijab versus nikab? nikab's a whole other level of covering that includes hiding identity, etc Uh, I think there's more consensus or they're like the majority opinions are Do advocate for veiling the the nikab More than just covering the hair Definitely within muslim societies It's expected that if you're in a muslim society, you're going to dawn the full face veil and this is what muslims practice But again, like there's a lot of liberalizing pressure for muslim women to start exposing more and more and more of themselves But if you went, you know 100 years ago and throughout the muslim world, whether you went to egypt or turkey or malaysia Women in public were when they were in public were fully veiled with the nikab. It's only in our current times that that this is Even in certain muslim countries This has been associated with like extremism and terrorism and this is part of the whole global war on terror cve policy Countering violent extremism policy where if you're a man who you know looks like me and has like a long beard Or you're a woman who covers your face. That means you're a potential terrorist and there's all kinds of negative consequences From that kind of islamic phobic policy that's been imposed by the west by the us and eu against the muslim world To stigmatize basic islamic practices that were very common in our history like full face veiling You got it. This one coming in from do appreciate it. Excuse me, but says Single wealthy women are the happiest daniel Okay, let me see the stats. I mean the what I hear about are these old women who are single who Are overdosing on anti depressants paying killers drinking wine like this is the common reality of being an Elderly single woman doesn't matter if you're rich or poor because women don't derive status Don't drive happiness from status In the same way that men do women aren't that competitive in the same way that men are So if you are, you know, this elderly woman in your fifties and you don't have any children You don't have any family around you This is why that demographic is the highest in its usage of anti depressants, you know This is the this is the reality That I don't see any of these atheists or feminists engage with but it's to their own detriment because that's your future That's the future of your yourself or your or your daughters I don't want that For muslims or non muslims So I don't I don't understand what do you have to gain by portraying Um, the reality in this false way that oh no single women in their fifties are the happiest that they they've ever been Okay. Well all the anti-depressant statistics Uh pharmaceutical statistics are contrary to that This one coming in Samuel bass says question to daniel. Why are you referring to biology to sustain your argument when islam doesn't acknowledge evolution? I think it's basically the same question as a previous one. Islam does acknowledge biology Islam does acknowledge biology In the same way that every religion acknowledges biology is in some way because we're human beings that have been created Uh by god, what I meant to say is They say when islam doesn't acknowledge evolution quote unquote Yeah, so i'm just trying to distinguish that you can we can acknowledge biology as muslims We can acknowledge biology we can acknowledge the animal kingdom We can acknowledge all of these natural facts about the world We can acknowledge history like this is the way that god has created the world So we we can understand the wisdom of veiling when we see how It's practiced throughout the animal kingdom or through history. We can better appreciate the value of islamic guidance So there's no conflict there between that kind of understanding of veiling or any or mate guarding in any practice And islam and a rejection of evolution Deborah graze says Veils don't cure depression. Oppression is never they don't cure depression And that said oppression is never a betterment for any society Um, well, yeah depends on how you define oppression You seem to liberals define oppression as if I don't get to do exactly what I want when I want it That i'm being oppressed like that's that's the kind of cartoon understanding of oppression that They they trot out in these kinds of debates with muslims or with christians But in reality the law liberal legal systems Restrict people from different choices that they can make so is that oppression the fact that the law is for example telling you that Yeah, you can't go and start dealing hard drugs for example or you can't you know You know engage in certain kinds of like you can't drive 100 miles per hour on the highway. You can't you know Transform your house into a theme park right into the in the middle of the neighborhood Like all of these restrictions or in the workplace all of these kinds of restrictions or in school All of these restrictions that limit your free choice what you can do as an employee as a student as a citizen Liberals don't experience all of that those regulations as oppression So that's a major inconsistency. We have to look at what is human nature If someone is restricting you from your nature and what you desire That is actually beneficial for you as a human being. Okay, then i'll grant that that's Oppression, but it's the liberal system that is preventing people from Achieving the things that they need like loving Committed relationships long-term relationships having a family having a loving Family with children growing old and and having the expectation that your children are going to take care of you And not just ship you off like these are the kinds of things that human beings need so we can objectively ask Which system is going to provide or increase the chances of providing for those needs? And I in all these debates I make the case that islam is the one that's meeting these basic human needs And liberalism is what is destroying and counteracting all of these needs that human beings actually have This should be a wake-up call for liberals that your system that you're advocating is a cancer You have to get rid of this and look elsewhere. Hopefully you look to islam But even if you don't look to islam you look at christianity you look at traditional buddhism That is better than this cancer that is destroying the entire world destroying every culture and and country in the world This one from harris sultan says thank you daniel for existing you destroy islam more effectively than us well According to the people who watched our debate harris, uh, they don't have that opinion So this one from brian w says daniel You are saying that women should veil to keep men who cannot control themselves from abusing them. Why? Can you repeat that? I didn't catch the first part. They said daniel You are saying that women should veil to keep men who cannot control themselves from abusing the women Why should women do this? No, I didn't say abusing Women like if a woman is not veiled and a man comes and assaults her or kills her then That is a violation. That's a crime that he's committed That's not what veiling is about like veiling is supposed to decrease the promiscuity decrease the rate of Inappropriate gender interaction in society and that's it's not about what men can do to control themselves versus not like in the same way that women As make guarding strategies as I explained in the opening they have they require like a dowry for example in marriage or women expect that a man is going to provide to the to the relationship and provide child support and provide protection like all of that Kind of resource investment that the husband or the or the man in the race relationship has to provide That decreases the amount of money that he has to spend on other potential women. So his attraction that man's attraction His attractiveness Is decreased because of these requirements and obligations that are put on him within the marriage And if you want to say that okay women men shouldn't just control themselves Well, women should just control themselves and and not require, you know men to have Money or status or looks or all of these kinds of features that women are looking for in a partner They should give all of that up. They should give up mate guarding They should give up any expectation of child support. They should give give up any expectation of maintenance Throughout throughout a relationship, but they're not willing to do that And that's what came out in this debate is do women have any obligations? Do women have any kind of accountability in a marriage and We didn't see a response to that and say we said, oh, yeah I want a man who is bigger than me and has more muscles than me. Okay Well, then that comes with certain kinds of costs and accountability, but you're not willing to pay it You got it. Thank you very much for this question coming in from Excuse me, but says women life and freedom down with patriarchy this one from apostate prophet says The parentheses or I should say in quotes paradox of the decline of female happiness of this is a famous paper from I think if I remember it It's like 2007 says is a study which says that developments over the decades have not made women happier And by developments, he means I think feminist aligned developments or changes he says Shows that despite these feminist developments over the decades and women's Simultaneous declines in happiness He says that the reason is that these feminist developments have not made women happier due to persisting imbalances in other words like societal imbalances like prejudice toward women or Systematic things that prevent women from getting ahead. He says this is a study for equality. Daniel doesn't read his own references No, but title of the paper is paradox Because the explanation or the question is we should at least see a trend line, right? If women are no one disagrees that women are more empowered than ever Women have more resources than ever. They are in higher positions of authority. There are more female CEOs Now than ever. So, yeah, we're not going to get a perfect like this is from the feminist perspective We're not going to get a perfect egalitarian Society, but at least things should be getting better depression should be getting less We should see a movement in all of these lines and say we see the opposite We see things are trending up. That's what the paradox is And that's what uh, you know, none of these guys can explain is why Even even these researchers can't explain it because again, it goes against of course the people who are writing that paper Betsy Stevenson and these researchers, of course, they're feminists. Of course, they're liberals Like that's why they're calling it a paradox It's not a paradox if you just understand human nature And you understand that look the liberal system that is proliferating is actually contrary to human Interest is actually contrary to what is going to bring everyone in society better outcomes Uh, so it's no surprise that you're seeing the increase in depression increasing crime increase in std's increase in all of these Sociological and personal psychological problems. It's no surprise Obviously, but it's a paradox for the liberal. It's a paradox for these researchers that despite themselves They don't want to admit that. Oh, we're we're getting more and more of what we want through all kinds of social policy But actually people are getting worse off psychologically in terms of other Sociological markers. That's what you have to explain You got it this one coming in from sahid lip ham La fam says they said I said it before I'll say it again. No one can beat our beloved daniel This one from xk says Let's see. This is more of a super chat directed at your critics namely aposid prophet and harris So we'll see that for another time. This one from we do want to you should read that They're getting how many questions are these guys getting there's It was more that they it was just kind of uh an insult I wish I do what I encourage you folks to stick to the topic. This one coming from speaking of damaging children Let's see. Uh, oh that that's actually for naria. I don't want to They say harris sultan says Sahid well, okay since he's addressing him. I guess I'll read the original one from sahid says Yeah, this is the one that was basically saying, you know Daniel one and nariel loss and harris sultan addresses them in a super chat saying Sahid lip ham is simply his Is simping his co-wife beater hard both are going red just take the l Yeah, I mean, this is all that these guys have is name calling Like they can just make these libelous accusations against me By accusing me of all kinds of criminal behavior. Like this is how small-minded and ignorant they are They cannot engage in the arguments. They just have to throw out these labels and accusations This one from nameless these we got that one actually this one from aziz says everyone watch Quote for read response On youtube debunking the apostate prophet So he got wars the the comments this one from Ahmed bin muhammad says I got that that one's from naria. My Tyson says James daniel is speaking over naria too much. I I tried to keep a rough Track in my mind. It seemed like it was fairly equal although. I would admit Daniel tends to take as much time as he can But that's I frankly would do the same thing but still ham Like to think just to say something to that I don't try to talk over people or I don't try to interrupt But like you have to acknowledge that I have a major disadvantage in all of these debates because I'm debating Positions that you know, I I don't have home court advantage basically my opponents have home court advantage because they're appealing to the status quo and the sensibilities of Of a liberal audience and even muslims are affected by liberalism and are sometimes our Understanding of what is right and wrong is heavily influenced by liberalism. So i'm trying to You know go against all of this inertia to try to bring another perspective That that takes time and it takes a lot of framework that I have to lay and argue for So I really want every single second that I can get in order to be able to make make it interesting Otherwise who wants to come to a debate where oh, you know veiling is is oppressing women. Don't you agree? Yep, we all you know see the opposition can't really make a good Argument for it. So yeah, Islam is just as barbaric as we always thought like that's boring and it's stupid And it's a waste of everyone's time. Don't you want like a different perspective? Like if you are a liberal audience member, don't you want to see what other possibilities there when I watch a debate? I get excited and that's why I appreciate modern day debates. I appreciate james is moderating you bring these very controversial topics and I want to what I enjoy in a debate is to see like the controversial position Bring something that I haven't thought of myself because I'll say oh, yeah, of course, you know, this is wrong But then I my expectations get undermined or they get Subverted by a great argument. That's what I enjoy in a debate not to just have my own biases Reconfirm to me like I don't benefit. I don't get any value out of that You got it. This one coming in from do appreciate it. See ham kadour says norea will go Okay, that's this one from xk says great job, brother daniel And lathe I think we did I do this one says hijab does work look up the video quote walking in hijab for four hours Unquote on youtube when not wearing it. She got cat called 200 times when wearing it Well, actually technically I don't want to Read that because uh, technically that'd be directed at norea This one from harris sultan says women or human sacrifices were also practiced in ancient cultures Would you defend those two daniel? Yeah, there's plenty of practices and many cultures that are wrong That's why I refer everything to islamic standards to see what is right and wrong just like you refer everything to your Broken incoherent illogical liberal standards and I judge them according to an islamic standard to determine if They're right and wrong It just happens to be the case that so many of the things that islam considers right Match up with human nature and also match up with the practice of so many different civilizations Throughout history in the past when muslims and christians would debate or muslims and jews would debate You know what they would debate they would debate the actual theological meat of the different religions and try to make Philosophical or logical arguments to prove that one theology is correct and the other theology is wrong They weren't debating something like quote-unquote child marriage. They weren't debating something like veiling. They weren't debating something like Patriarchy and differences and gender roles You know why they weren't debating those things because that was the status quo that every society had been practicing for literally millennia It's only become a topic of debate now because Islam refuses to go with the liberal status quo islam refuses to reform itself to match up with this liberal Hegemony that is imposing itself on the entire world and destroying the entire world islam refuses to do that So it becomes the object of critique in every place that liberalism conflicts with islam But the good news is that it's very easy to rebut this kind of argument from liberalism because it's so easy to show How liberalism actually Creates a worse society creates a worse Set of outcomes for people and their families and their marriages and so forth and many debates Including the debate that I had with snail fun Prove that and shows that You got it this one coming in from do appreciate it Harris sultan says no I quoted a study that you ignored proof that daniel ignores studies that go against his belief system Yeah, I didn't ignore the study. I responded to it. This one from try try doing that sometime Aziz says so am I saying this right salame? This is it salam salam and greetings guys and gals. I look so naive. Okay. You they say youtube search Trigonometry sexual revolution the interview Let's see. I just don't want to do anything. I have a few more minutes You got it. We'll try to wrap this up as quick as possible. In fact, I think folks we've gotten past the point at which We told you that we could not take any more questions So I think that I want to just go for that last few minutes and we'll let daniel go Mari just to be sure I there are so many that came in so fast that just for good measure I want to be sure that we actually got there. This is uh Okay, that one was for norea norea norea Let's see. Harris sultan says He could choose favorite pastime is how to come up with new ways to destroy islam Okay Yeah, look look how I have to debate Norea, I have to debate apus. I have to debate staelton. Like I have to debate a team of ex-muslims in every debate Whereas they have to just come at me like this is the this is not only do I not have a home court advantage on the topic I also have to go against the entire mob of people like this just shows you like what is really happening in these debates This one coming up for a last one. We'll end it with one from your pal apostate prophet says He says women are naturally equally Women are naturally equally or even more promiscuous according to many studies So which I think you said that earlier daniel you uh, then he says only historically less polygamous Compared to men, which I think that's also what you said. This is I think this maybe came in right after you said that or close He says why does daniel continue with this old myth? Uh Like I said, I promise Women have less promiscuity than men because it's associated with the hormone testosterone Testosterone is what increases Uh promiscuity, so it's not exactly at the same levels. That doesn't mean that women aren't promiscuous They are but women are also more selective biologically because they have to have just biologically they have much more Resources that they have to put into pregnancy because you have to carry a baby for nine months That's a huge toll on the body So naturally females in every species not just humans are more selective with who they mate with And that is a huge difference that leads to patriarchy. It actually leads to differences in gender roles So they are less promiscuous and they're more selective But feminism subverts all of of that. Why? Because We see actually testosterone rates and women increasingly increasing over the decades Which is causing women to be more promiscuous than they were in the past Making women more competitive than they were in the past Studies are also showing that the tone of voice of women is actually getting deeper Women's voices are getting deeper because they have more testosterone now than they did two or three Decades ago. So this is um, these are the kinds of differences between the genders But there's a kind of gender parity that's created because of Different things happening in in the human population with hormone differences and testosterone But I mean that I don't know what apostate bravo was trying to prove like with that kind of statistic You got it with that. We do want to say we sincerely appreciate our Yes, so we want to say folks. Thank you very much and check out their links Daniel and norea are both linked in the description box that includes at the podcast as folks if you didn't know Modern day debate does have a podcast follow us Check us out on your favorite podcast app and you'll find Daniel and norea are linked there if you're listening to this debate Via the podcast as all of our debates end up on the podcast within 48 hours Also, as I said As you can see at the bottom right of your screen inspiring philosophy I think the strongest debater on the christian side today and daniel Who I think frankly, I think daniel you're you're probably the strongest debater on the muslim side from what i've seen They will be debating at debate con 3.1. It is confirmed for saturday april 22nd It's going to be in the dallas area. We're still confirming the venue But do mark it on your calendar go ahead and put it in your google calendar. It will be saturday april 22nd lord willing That's our plan. So we don't want to remind you. It's going to be huge. You don't want to miss it With that want to say one last thank you daniel. It's been a true pleasure Yeah, thanks a lot james again. I apologize for the technical difficulties earlier and delaying the whole thing I was a spicy debate No problem. It was spicy to say the least if that subscribe button folks for more spicy debates coming up I'm gonna go to the post credit scene in just a moment as I wish daniel well. So stick around and i'll be back in about 60 seconds Ladies and gentlemen want to say thanks for all of your support We do want to say seriously. We were excited about the future We want to say thank you for all of your support I have like in terms of the number of likes the proportion of likes and viewers It's almost as if everybody who is watching already hit the like button. So thank you guys I have never seen so much of a positive response. We appreciate that for real. It really does Encourage us We had a debate earlier today that had more live viewers than this debate And I had to bend over backwards to get to 500 likes. So I appreciate that you guys have been so generous with your likes We're at 1100 And I haven't even had to show my subway tattoo. So I appreciate that. Thank you guys We appreciate that very much and i'm talking about subway the restaurant. Yeah, that's what i'm talking about Want to say appreciate you being with us We want to let you know the vision for moderated debate and i'm very serious about this. We are absolutely determined We believe that whether you be muslim christian atheist everybody wants a fair debate platform And that's what moderated debate is bringing to youtube in particular Our vision is to provide a neutral platform so that everybody muslim's christians atheists You name it can make their case on a level playing field That's what we're going to do and we want to say thank you for your support as you have helped us expand this neutral platform Immensely already. Thank you guys for all the things you do for example We do appreciate you subscribing that support really means a lot as well. We appreciate it in addition to Huge thank you as many of you share our debates Really that does it goes a long way because if I share them It's not as meaningful because people say james you started moderated debate It's you know like of course you'd say it's great But when you share it as a third person you could say a third party It really makes a difference where for example if you have a discord group or a twitter group like a direct message You know thread with friends or maybe you just want to share it on twitter in general Maybe a facebook page. Maybe on Reddit or whatsapp whatever it might be we appreciate it So hit that share button and help us get the word out about moderated debate as like I said This is something I think we can all agree on whether you be an atheist a christian an atheist first I want to say welcome. We're glad that you're here. I see you there in the old live chat I'm going to say hi to more people in a moment But I want to say cori clark good to see you j a m 84 glad that you were here Zade da wa glad we're glad that you're with us as well as be happy happy to have you Homo sapien glad that you're here as well as Isle o hager. Thanks for dropping in Sarah rainy good to have you with us as well as tarik and little cat feet. I see you there in the live chat Thanks for your support Also, thanks for being with us period just in the live chat. Here is sultan. Thanks for dropping bye. Good to see you again As well as gray jedi glad to have you here blade walker and frisky mine. Thanks for dropping in Shai let me know if i'm saying this right chic Da wood. Thanks for coming in and Alakazam. Thanks for your support says james. I love the debates thumbs up appreciate that seriously want to say Your shares really do mean a lot. So thank you for doing that Other ways that you've helped the channel. I've got to say We do have channel memberships a lot of people don't know about that We usually forget to mention that but we do so we highly encourage you check out those memberships If you want to use the modern day debate emoticons for example The modern day debate emoticon right here that I am putting in the live chat is amazing Because we do say a lot of things are amazing here in particular the debates and the debaters We do appreciate them the debaters of the lifeblood of the channel So we do really want to say daniel and aria. We appreciate you guys if you ever hear this Thank you to our debaters as well as Now a lot of you heard about this already, but I do want to mention it once more just in case you hadn't heard about it is modern day debate Has this huge upcoming conference Set your calendars for saturday april 22nd. We are going to have more details on this in particular We are going to have The venue out soon. We're hoping by monday It's just We're like right on the cusp of it and we're practically there It's just that I have to verbally commit and then we have to put in a payment So I want to say that's one huge thing, but also want to say My dear friends, we're excited about the future. Here are some of our values So you might be wondering like what what is modern day debate? What are your guys's values? Give me an idea of like what you're about. We value i'll give you an example Freedom to say what people want our debaters were free from their first breath We want them to continue to be free to be able to make their case Whether it be the case for islam the case for christianity the case for atheism On a neutral platform with where they will be treated fairly That's important to us and maybe these views will be controversial sometimes as they are And some people might say james well, then you shouldn't host them if they're controversial people Or if they have controversial ideas you shouldn't allow those ideas But we would say hey, we're all about liberty and that leads into our next Value in particular competition. We're not ashamed of it. A lot of people are like, oh, I don't think debate is productive Even though I can tell you hey as a guy getting his phd in psychology I'm in my last year before I graduate lord willing. It's at the end of the year I can tell you the research is pretty clear debates do change minds The randomized control trials have been done And they do show that debates actually do change people's minds and you might be thinking like oh, yeah But as a lot of people say well, but james, what if it's like these They're changing their minds in terms of you know, maybe one debater is just funnier And it's not that their arguments are more logical But maybe they're just more attractive or they're more humorous more charming Whatever it might be they use these emotional appeals whatever it is. Well, I've got to tell you The research shows and this is highly backed. I can even cite the original authors so Petty and cassiapo in 1986 had this seminal paper that has been backed over and over again It's now called the elaboration likely model and in particular It says that people are more persuaded by logical arguments That's called a central route of persuasion according to this model Compared to peripheral routes of persuasion such as you could say more shallow or superficial things like How funny is the speaker or how attractive is the speaker? Those things do have a small bit of persuasive appeal But the research shows that it's the logical arguments that have more of an impact and a longer lasting impact And the peripheral route of persuasion in particular if someone happens to be more attractive Those types of persuasion are not as impactful and in fact very transient in terms of their You could say effect in their persuasion and attitude change. So the research Actually supports modern-day debates philosophy of like I said one We give people the freedom to say what they want and then through competition, which is our second value We let the chips fall where they may we let a thousand flowers bloom. We let the natural selection of ideas occur The cream will rise to the top. The best arguments will win out now our society or I should say Soy-siety is oftentimes. Oh But but debate all competition. Those are bad. Oh, that's not nice. You know, we want nice and timid You know rabbit like people like rabbits not rabid, but rabbits that hop around with their bunny ears That's what our society is going toward for real. I mean, we all know it But the truth is Not only does moderated debate take a stronger approach in other words that we're saying, hey, no, no We value freedom of speech and we value competition. That's what's going to bring the best result for everybody But it's the one that's actually empirically backed I've got these critics. They say oh, james. No, you can't let these controversial People on or these controversial ideas be spoken about and I say hey, you're the ones that are always asking for empirical evidence You're the one making an empirical claim that this is bad that we're doing this Where's your empirical empirical research whenever I ask them that they're stunned. They're like Oh, well, I thought I could just assert it and just say that you're a moral james And I say hey, I've got empirical papers that I can cite There are plenty of research studies on for example the impact of debates on attitude change They've been doing this on presidential debates for decades And like I said the elaboration likelihood model, which you could call a theory because it has mountains of empirical evidence behind it Show is that I'm right and they're wrong. So when they say oh, well, I'm worried though I'm worried because they'll they might say controversial things and they might be more charming and I say hey, you know the central router persuasion is more powerful So you don't have to worry stop worrying. These are the kinds of people they wear their bicycle helmet even when they're not riding their bike I mean they just wear it walking around the neighborhood. That's how worried they are just worried about everything's going to harm them But I want to say thanks for you being with us. I see you there in the live chat z glad to have you with us Zed Dawah as I said glad you're here. Muhammad Kasim. Thanks for dropping in glad that you're with us as well as Largo Sifanias, thanks for dropping in islam is the way. Thanks for coming by. We're glad you're here Eric W. Happy to have you here said cauba. Am I saying it right? We're glad you're here thinking atheists Glad that you're here. I see you there in the old live chat. Thanks for being a member We appreciate your support as well as Ahmed. Thanks for dropping in As Erdie QWERTY, thanks for dropping in as well as Wilmar. Thanks for being a channel member. That really does mean a lot We appreciate that Corey Clark. Thanks for being here and we got to tell you my dear friends We're excited about the future modern day debate is constantly working on improving We have found a way to improve our audio for the in-person debates and this is a big this is a game changer We're excited about this. I found a new tech set up and I feel confident saying that I'm virtually like on the cusp of mastering this new audio interface because I gotta be honest It's taken months like it it's so I'm like I know that's bold to say you're mastering something But this is something I put so many hours So many hours in because we want our audio to be perfect and I really this next conference We are working on it so that one You are both going to hear the speakers clearly throughout the debate because I will admit and I'm sorry about this at our last Conference there was a point and it actually it happened to Daniel It was like temporarily for like 20 to 30 seconds Daniel You could still hear them, but it was definitely the audio went lower And so we're fixing that so that doesn't happen again Also, you couldn't hear the guests in the audience asking questions during the q&a We have found a way so that we can have a mic that comes from our audio interface that they can then Hold and ask their questions so that those questions will be very clear to the audience and not only that We found a way so that you'll be able to see the speaker who's answering the question So for example, Daniel And you'll also will have a split screen So you'll be able to see the question ask her simultaneously So it's getting really cool like our production value is increasing Big time because we're always trying to say how can we better ourselves? How can we make ourselves better and keep working hard at that? So I want to say thank you guys for all of your support. It means more than you know, seriously Thank you guys. We love you guys We appreciate you guys Eric w. I see there in the live chat. Thanks for coming by It really does mean a lot Felix gamble. We're glad that you were here Largo Stefanius is amazing Thanks for all of your support you guys. We are excited about the future big things are coming My dear friends and then Gina from cologne. I saw you. Where are you there? Let me find you in the live chat Is Gina said If Daniel ruled okay, I don't want to don't get me wrong I just want to make sure that I don't read a question for a guess unless they're here to answer it because otherwise It's just like uh But I want to say thank you guys Rasputin. I see there in the old live chat mojo Thanks for dropping in and thanks for that beautiful painting mojo Seriously, that really does mean a lot that you think of us and that you care about a saint look serious That means a lot. So we do appreciate you neo sultan. Thanks for your kind words. Seriously. That means a lot I want to say it's good to hang out with you guys. Seriously. This is really fun for me. So I want to say BB hdd. Thanks for dropping by a keel glad you're here Moroccan Ishmaelite Arab thanks for coming by as well as said coba Let me know if I'm saying it right glad that you are here as well as Rondo 604 thanks for dropping in glad to have you with us the hunter. Thanks for dropping in glad you're with us and Ilco Spang thanks for dropping in says one of the best channels. I found lately. Thanks so much That means more than you know, seriously Matthew Colbert send my brother. Thanks for coming in says yo, jimmy. What's up? Thanks for coming in man. Glad to see you Matthew. You put a smile on my face. Matthew. I've got to say Let me show you this I'm sorry that I'm so slow. I'm so delayed. Oh, it's a green screen thing. Let me just okay. There it is I'm so delayed Matthew at Saying thank you for this. I got your christmas card. It went to my old house But I still lived I kind of still live there a long story short I've got the christmas card you sent it's a little late, but that that doesn't matter I just appreciate that you guys care about me that much. So thank you very much So I just appreciate you. I got the message on the back. It means more than you know This is I've got to tell you My brother Matthew And his beautiful wife melinda. She is she is the heart of What's the word i'm looking for a saint? I mean she's like they're both saints So I just want to say we appreciate you appreciate you guys Matthew and melinda. Thank you so much So thanks for your love. It means more than you know you guys And yeah, I just wanted to show you that because I I got that and I when I did get it it cheered me up So it it gave me it made me happy. So thank you very much, Matthew. It's good to see you We should talk soon Matthew. We haven't talked in a while. So it'd be great to catch up on the telephone and Just to see how you're doing so and Achilles opinion on top g. I don't I don't know who top g is actually so Let me uh, I'd have to I'd have to find out who it is to get didn't get back to you. So but yes character 57 Character 57 says do a debate on passport bros. I don't know who who those are um I think I've heard of them or they're like I I think I I think I know who it is, but I I don't know for sure But yes, I want to say thank you guys. I love you guys you guys make this fun I should run I've been This is our second debate today. If you haven't seen it We had a huge debate this morning as well In particular on whether or not Christianity is rational. So want to say thank you guys. We love you guys I'm excited about the future. Join us while we're small. Our story is just beginning We are optimistic and excited about the future We're doing big things and things are just going to keep getting better here at modern day debate. I love you guys Beautiful. Let's see says hey bud. Will professor dave be on modern day debate. I've invited him I don't hear back from him very often. So it might be a while to be honest But yeah, we are we're hoping to have him again, but want to say thanks everybody appreciate you guys and we'll see you at the next one amazing