 So, I still believe that as we progress into this next bull run in 2024, potentially 2025, I think one of the different sectors that's going to lead us into the promised land is blockchain and web3 gaming. Now, it's very hard to keep up. So, I've had a couple of different guests in the show, Crypto Stash being one of them. And now, of course, I got my man here, Kagi, from the juice team. Kagi, welcome to the show for the very first time. Thanks for coming. Yeah, man. Thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it. I've been watching a little bit of your channel and you keep up pretty good with the market. So, it's a really nice channel to follow for sure. Yeah, man. Well, I mean, on this channel, we are in a great shift. And the shift is because we all know on this channel, dollar cross averaging, lump sum, dynamic DCA, the basics, the Bitcoin, the theorems, the L2s, maybe the oracles. But now we want to take a look at what could potentially be. And for that, to take a look at web3, I've got to get some information from you. So, first of all, everybody, if you're not following Kagi, and you want to keep up with this after we do this, this interview, I think you're going to, there is, of course, Kagi's Twitter account, very good stuff. And then he's also got Juice News, where if you were just looking for just to read things up and see what's coming out, because there's so many things to keep a top up. And you guys do a great job here on Juice News. And of course, if you're lazy like me and just want to watch some videos, well, he's got that too. And Kagi, I appreciate the serious tone, plus the excited look every so often the thumbnails, nothing too crazy. So thank you. You know, you got to do it for the YouTube algorithm. You don't got to open the mouth, you know how it is. Yeah, man, I know it. I always, I always get, I want to stash for it, but it is what it is. You got to play the game. So, man, here's what it comes down to. We're going to go through three questions. The same questions pretty much I've asked everybody in web3 and blockchain gaming, because why is blockchain gaming going to leave the next bull run? And what are your top plays? As far as like the investor, I think this is important. Then we'll get into the individual and the web2 gamer, which is, why should people play these web3 games? And what is the issue that web2 traditional gamers have with the web3 version? And how do we bring them over? And lastly, if we're going to talk about the positive, let's talk about the negative, which is if we're going to see a big bull run, what could actually derail that bull run for specifically web3 gaming? So, Kagi, first question, man. Yes. The reason, in my opinion, the reason why this is going to take off is because people play games every single day. DeFi is a game, right? Now, when you add, yeah, DeFi is a game, and people love playing those DeFi little games, even junior swap is a game. But when you add this layers where it looks better, it has more game loops, people get engaged in these games. People love this. Even in a bear market, literally, there's people trading thousands of dollars in games like Axie Infinity. Some people think Axie Infinity died, but just recently, you saw a $15,000 sale of an Axie. I mean, people play games no matter what. In a bull run, it's just going to be a hundred X. And because I've already been here in a bull run, I already know how it's going to play out. There's going to be an excitement for new games, for new ecosystems, something that we didn't have before. We didn't have the foundation before. We had a lot of websites that were sketchy, but now we have ecosystems that provide the whole value. You go into this ecosystem, these platforms, you find new games. They allow you to trade within those platforms. Now you don't have to go to OpenSea or this new marketplace. It's all like in one spot. So it's going to make it much easier for people to get involved. And even when the bear market comes again, people are going to be there, trading games, collectibles, and all that good stuff. Yeah, I think that is a big determining factor, because we know about the cycles. We know things get overheated and they fall away, but gaming really never goes away. Even in a pandemic, during the pandemic, I saw esports explode. I saw sports that used to be on traditional ESPN wither and die and go away, and then esports came now. Of course, there's a little bit of a tail off, but I see that there's a huge amount of playing going on. And I think to touch to your point, you talked about Axie in the beginning. And you said, in the beginning, we had these games, but they're very few and far between. Talk to us real quick about the things that are coming out, because you're talking about platforms. I see it as these big games are right around the corner, because when I got in, in 2017, none of this stuff existed. So just talk to that real quick. Yes. Let me share my screen real quick here. Yes. So right here, I got a list called Gaming Ecosystem. I have put together a list of a lot of ecosystems where you can go in and find a bunch of games. All these ecosystems are powered by one single token. And this token allows you to either, obviously, the traditional things that you can do in DeFi, stake them, you can use them to pay for transactions within their ecosystem. You can buy different NFTs or in-game items within those games with this token. So it has this utility, it has governance as well as some of these tokens. So for example, I'll go into Ronin. We got Ronin. This is the ecosystem that powers Axie Infinity. If you go here, you can see we got Axie Infinity, but we also have the machines. We got Tribester. We got Axie Champions, Bold, Battle Bears. And there's a bunch more they haven't listed here. And you can actually download the Mavis Hub right here, which is something like Steam, something like Epic Games. If you guys have seen Epic Games or even go to the Apple App Store, right? That's basically how it looks. So you can go play the games. And right there, there's an NFT marketplace as well. And you also got your DeFi integrated as well. So when you trade tokens within the game, you can just do it right there. You don't have to go to Uniswap or the other swap or the other swap to get the liquidity. It's all there. That's for the Ronin ecosystem. Then you got Immutable X. This is Polygon 2.0. So you guys know about ZK, ZK Polygon 2.0. This technology is going to allow a lot of ecosystems to build on top of Polygon ZK. So each ecosystem is going to have their own chain. And they're going to be able to pay transactions with their own tokens. So you got Immutable X right here. Immutable is at a 1.2 billion fully diluted market gap. This is one of the biggest ones. Gosh. They have partnerships with GameStop and many other games. And you were saying there is a lot of games coming out that are really, really good. You got Planet Quest, pretty nice. Embersor, MMORPG, Guild of Guardians, Illuvium, one of the best ones. Gods and Chain, one of the best card games. Metalcore, one of the best FPSs. Shardbound is also a card game. This one is a mobile game. So people are going to be able to go to these ecosystems and kind of interact here without having to go to different websites and what is this? Do I have to connect my wallet here? Actually, Immutable X has this game passport where people are going to be able to log in with their email and password and right away create a wallet for them. So it's going to be a smooth transition for Web2 players. And we can go on and on and on. We got Gala, we got Engine, we got Mirror Circle as well. We got Treasuredow right here. You go to the Marketplace and you can see the activity. People are trading. This one has a 30 million dollar volume. I don't know how many days, 90 days, 5 million. I mean, there's a lot of money flowing in games. People play games, like you said. Even in a pandemic, it doesn't matter. People play games every single day. Billions of people play games all around the world. So you got this one, you got Ultra. So there's many, many more. Right, right. We got you. So here's one of the big things. Because if you take a look at like an Axie, the gameplay over there, I played it. I gotta tell you, not a fan. I'm not a fan. I didn't get it. Some people got it. Some people were like, we're going to grind it out. The people in Southeast Asia and Thailand. But then the game that you just showed, and I'm going to try to splice in some of those videos of those. But I gotta tell you, those things look like games that I think a lot of traditional players would play. Because one of the biggest knocks are, first of all, web through gaming is a scam. And the second knockoff is web through gaming is a boring, which I think is the big thing. But Kagi, I see you guys play, and it looks like these are, but you guys have early access. So one of these games like really starting to come out. Is this like five years on the road or are we getting close? I think there's a few things here that we can look into. So we got some mobile games that are really, really nice. Something like Clash of Clans. I'm pretty sure there's a bunch of people that have heard of Clash of Clans. They're mobile games that maybe take six months to a year and a half to make. Some of those are pretty ready to go. A lot of these games are waiting for the bull market, obviously, because it's just better to launch in a bull market where there's liquidity and people want to trade and stuff like that. So we already know the game here. And then some other games like Star Atlas, for example, in Solana. This is a massive, massive metaverse. This games could take $500 million to $1 billion to make. They're massive. So you're looking at five to 10 years to make those type of metaverses. Most of them are going to fail. I don't think Star Atlas will fail. They're actually rolling out product little by little by faces. It's a strategy to keep the people involved and engaged because waiting 10 years, five to 10 years for them to play the game, it's a lot of time. So little by little, they keep rolling out products that people can play. Now they're coming out with the D5 game where you kind of go mine resources and stuff like that. And those resources, you're going to be able to use it in the metaverse later on. So there's a combination of games, but there's definitely good games coming out next year. By mid 2024, we're going to see a lot of good games launching because a lot of them are waiting and they're staying quiet right now. So that's for sure. That's the big thing we talked about off camera. We talked about the big games that are coming. So like Star Atlas is pretty huge, right? But like see like a big time alluvium, you're looking at Q1 2024, Q2 2024. And to me, I think I look at, I go, well, that's perfect timing because what do we see in Q2 2024? We see a Bitcoin halving. And usually what do we see? We see a massive amount of liquidity. Now there's a macro factors there, but who cares, right? At some point, like we talked about, I think if we can just set that in the timing, no one wants to launch right now. So I can see where things are going. The question is what we get there. But I guess the next big thing I would say is just piggybacking on what you just talked about as far as the games is why should people play these Web3 games? The biggest, every time I do these videos, every time I talk about this, people will say, first of all, they don't get it, but they're starting to understand thanks to you guys and you guys are on the show. But the second big thing I get is I'm a traditional gamer. I hate these games. I hate NFTs. Why do we need these? What's it going to take Kagi to understand for these traditional gamers and what is the benefit to come to Web3 game? This is a pretty loaded question. I think it's very important to understand that trying to sell to Web2 gamers Web3 is very hard. And the reason it's very hard is the same reason why it was hard to sell to my grandma to get into Bitcoin or even my mom, even though she's already in Bitcoin or my dad, they're already in Bitcoin, they're invested and all of that. Because at the beginning, everything is a hassle. There's a lot of intricacies into these new technologies. You got to do a wallet, you got to do this. So the foundation was not there yet, but we're very, very close. I'm telling you right now, one year and a half to two years, we're going to be in a perfect moment for people to just log in. They don't even know that it's Web3 because basically everything is going to become Web3. And the reason it's going to become Web3 is because of asset ownership. If you buy a skin in a game, which gamers spend thousands, if not millions of dollars a year in skins in Fortnite, I have spent like at least $2,000 in Fortnite myself, but I can't do anything. I have to go to eBay to sell this and it's illegal. It's against TOS. Why? I paid for it. So a little by little, they're going to understand. They're going to understand a little by little and there's no reason to push them to be like, yo, come here. This is better. They'll know it's better. They'll know. They'll know when those games that they like and they start playing offer them the ability to, oh, damn, I bought the skin, but you know what? I'm kind of tired of the game. Let me just sell it, whatever. I bought it for 20, but now it's going for $10 in the marketplace, whatever. At least I get something back and then I'll go to another game and the money's just going to start flowing from ecosystem to ecosystem, especially when we have interoperable ecosystems like Polygon ZK. On Polygon ZK, there's going to be a lot of ecosystems building. You got immutable. You got Game Swift. You got Gachichain. All of these three ecosystems have their own token, their own games, but you're going to be able to bounce back and forth between those. So there's going to be a massive, massive influx of players once we have a solid, solid library of games. And we're very close, man. I'm telling you. I can see it. And like I showed you, there's a lot of ecosystems out there. There's a lot of ecosystems. So just to touch on that, a couple of things. First of all, for everybody just watching the video, all the things that Kai, he's talking about, we're going to link those in the description. If you feel like uncomfortably like, I don't know about these games, whatever else, I don't know these things that we took a look at at CoinMarketCap, there's also the underlying infrastructure. And if you heard the terms that Kai used, he talked about Polygon, which of course Ethereum, talked about ImmutableX. So if you're taking a look at the picks and shovels versus the gold, that could be also one of your plays. And then the last thing I'll talk about, you talked about ownership. And when we take a look at ownership, see back in the day when I would play, play games on console, you would go and you would buy the game. You'd have a physical cartridge or a CD, pretty old. And you would play that game. And then you would take that game back and you would say, Hey, GameStop, I want X amount. Like, well, sorry, kid, the only thing I can do is 10 bucks. I bought it for 50, whatever. But you still got something back. So like in this situation for like, for like fortnight and for all these different places, you can't really own anything. And like you said, I can't really sell it. So for me, I take a look at ownership. I think it's a big thing. And this is what me and Yatsu from Atamoka Brands talked about. For us to have to have true freedom, we need some type of property ownership. And that goes for the physical world, our houses, our cars, our land. But for some reason, that just got missed in the digital world, our data, our NFTs, our pieces, our skins, whatever else. So I can see where we're going. I guess that would lead to the last question then, which is we talked about the good stuff. We know there's a lot of good things coming out. And it looks inevitable, but let's take Devil's Advocate. So, Kiki, what could actually derail all this? Because we want this to work. I want it to work. But what if it doesn't work? What could really screw things up? I actually don't see a world where that happens. But I will take the bad side how it could get screwed. So you got Steam Marketplace and you got basically people trading skins in different games within the Steam Marketplace like Counter-Strike. So I don't see a world where the idea of asset ownership and transfer of assets doesn't work. I don't see that. What I can see is big scams, like what happened with Axie Infinity, $600 million hack. They got hacked. Some big FTX kind of moment in the gaming industry that really hits it so hard that we lose confidence again. And then crypto bad again, NFT is bad again. That is a potential in this market, 100% because there is bad players here. And there's people that will build this beautiful product. And you're like, yo, we love this product. We love this. Like FTX has so many products, and they literally had the best products in any exchange, anything from wallet in your phone, anything from even NFTs. I got into some parties where I had to pull out my FTX app to get in with NFTs. It was super cool, man. So in what world are you going to think this is going to rug? So that could happen in the gaming industry for sure. And the gaming industry is the biggest entertainment industry together, bigger than film, that music together, they generate more money than anybody else. So we could potentially see a multi-billion dollar valued company that everybody trusts and then they rug you for some reason. That could derail Web 3 gaming for sure. But the idea of asset ownership, that's here to say, man. Yeah, I gotta tell you, I can see that and I can see like a rugging situation happen. But again, the underlying asset, the game itself, that's the big thing. It's the utility. And I think as time moves on, we'll see just how much utility has because people like to game, let gamers game. So Kagi, man, that was a good one. So thanks for coming on the show. And then everybody who is watching the video right now, just so you know, you can find Kagi. Let me add this to the piece here. You can find Kagi on Twitter. You can find him on Juice News. And of course, you can find him on his YouTube channel. And also you do a little bit of, I think you drop in on Crypto Stash every so often, you guys do around the metaverse? Around the metaverse. Yeah, he invites me sometimes and I jump in. We talk about games. We mostly focus on gaming. Sometimes we talk about the market, if anything happens with the SEC or whatever, because it all affects the market no matter what. Crypto gaming is part of the market, you know? This is awesome. Yeah. You know what? Let's just do, how about this? I'm just going to do a bonus question. Okay. We'll throw this in. So this just happened yesterday. This was, the SEC brings enforcement. I don't know if you heard about the story, impact theory. I interviewed him. Did you, Tom Billy or whatever? He seemed like a great guy. So what do you think about this? Is this, because for everybody watching at home, we've already covered this in the show, but the SEC claimed that NFTs that were sold by Impact Theory was actually a security. They made $30 million. They paid a fine of $6.1 million, which I thought to myself, that's a pretty good deal. That's pretty good deal. Yeah, I mean, if you're just going to cause the business, that's great. Moving forward, how do you see this all playing out? Because if we're talking about ownership, it's all NFTs. So can the SEC really, truly break everything down and then goodbye Open C and goodbye Web 3 game? Or do you think there's some other way around this? I mean, they're definitely going to try to do these things over and over and over, but I think there's a point where you can't fight it. They're not going to be able to go against the people's will. What are you going to tell me? Like I can't make an NFT right now and the Ethereum blockchain or whatever. It's unstoppable. It really is. I mean, I just laugh at this stuff. We have seen this over and over and over, and it's an attempt to scare founders out there. And I think it's, in a way, I think there's a positive to this. There's some MFers out there that really want to create projects and rug people and leave the ecosystem. So it kind of puts that stuff like, yo, should I do this way? If I raise that much money, they're going to come after me, right? So that's a positive, right? That's a positive. That is a positive. It's like, if you're going to start an exchange right now, you're thinking about, do I really want to be in the spotlight like Binance or FTX or MtGox? Do I really want to do that? So it makes people think twice. So there's a positive there. But I think long term, that doesn't matter. None of that matters. I got it. You know what? I thought I said it was very negative on a video, but the way that you said it, it was actually told to me by one of my subscribers. And I go, you know what? That's a good point. So you brought up the same point and you got to say to yourself, well, at some point, first of all, at some point, the SEC, they've already lost partially to Ripple. They just lost today to grayscale. That's two black eyes. And there's only so many times you can keep losing before the, the ability that you have as the SEC chair can only have so much power and so much weight. And you're like, you know what? We're going to see you like, whatever, man, you just, you're just punching me with pillows. I don't really care. So anyhow, so Kagi, thank you again for answering those questions. And again, everybody, you can find Kagi links in the description. All the things he talked about as far as his plays will also be a link. So Kagi, any last words of wisdom for the gamers or the investors out there? Yeah, mostly for the investors. I think the gamers are going to come little by little. I would imagine that your demographic is a little bit older. And I think crypto, the crypto, but even the crypto demographic is older. That's the truth right now. It's probably like 20s and up or 25 and up 25 to 45. That's probably around the range. So most likely they're investors. They have their nine to five, or they have their own business. They have a family. At the end of the day, you want to invest in the infrastructures, right? You're looking to make money, right? You're looking for the potential to make, let's call it the potential to make money. So invest in the infrastructures that the gamers, the next generation of gamers in five to 10 years are going to use, which are these blockchains. Of course, you got to keep up with the market to see which ones are the winners, little by little, because sometimes you have a winner and then another one comes out of nowhere and is winning. We've seen this before even in tokens. Like in the top 100 tokens, it's always changing. So you always got to be careful and kind of look diligently what's happening in the market. But if you're an investor, this is where the future of gaming is going. Period. There is no way around it, you know. So that's my last words. Great points and we talk about dollar cost average, take profits along the way, and be careful. All right. Kagi, my man, you've said it all. I appreciate you coming by. Everybody, if you like today's video, give it a thumbs up. Consider subscribing. Everything we talk about is time sensitive as you just heard. That's it for today. So for me and Kagi, thanks so much. We'll see you on the next one.