 And we're open. I'm also going to start you to. All right, we are live. Hello, friends. We're going to give it a few. We're going to give it until right at the top of the hour to start. Thank you all for being here. Give it one more minute. Let folks fill the room. Oh, make sure my job is working for everybody as well. Welcome. Just going to quickly check my email to make sure something is not stuck in zoom when we did have, you know, 50 people registered. So, I hope we're not stuck. All right, friends, I hope friends are going to find us today for some reason. I'm going to start by making folks log in to zoom, which is not something we tend to do. So let's just give it a few more minutes. Thank you. All right, I see some folks finding their way in. Okay. I'm going to go ahead and start and see if I can. That is weird. It's weird. There's something weird. We're going to go, we're going to roll and we're going to, I'm going to investigate after the intro. So, welcome. Thank you all for being here. You are here as part of our one city one book campaign. And we are here to talk with a panel featuring ABL comics. And they're going to talk about their latest endeavor, a podcast called tell away, tell away for one one. And as I mentioned, this is part of our big literary campaign called your called one city one book. This is the 16th year and we're celebrating the amazing work of Erlon Woods and Nigel poor for their book. This is ear hustle based on the podcast by the same name. I also want to acknowledge that our libraries occupies the unceded ancestral homeland of the Ram Yutush aloney people were the original inhabitants of the services go peninsula. We recognize that we benefit from living and working in their traditional homeland. And as uninvited guests, we affirm their sovereign rights as first peoples and wish to pay our respects to the ancestors, elders, and relatives of the Ram Yutush community. And I put in the chat box some great resources that you could check out, including. And I also want to acknowledge that we have a lot of great people here. They're a great organization out of the East Bay. And they're all women led. Whoa, sorry for that long link. All right. So as I mentioned, this is one city one book. So we have, it's been going on for a solid three months now. So we are coming to an end with sadly, because. Wow, some amazing people have been here at our virtual and virtual meeting. And so not only has it been people who are like. In the field of incarceration or. Recently returned residents and working in that industry, but also I don't like that word industry working in that field of folks coming home and helping folks inside. So it's been a lot of people like that, but it's also been like a lot of people who just want to know what's really been inspired by the folks that have been coming to the events. And asking questions and being there and being present. So we do have a quite a couple more. Events coming up, including. Tomorrow night, the amazing cap Brooks and James Burke. From the anti police terror project, they're going to talk about what's actually needed to commute, keep communities safe and have a feeling it's communities, communities safe, but how can we do that? Let's do that. December 10th in person at the main library. The new college law school is going to debut their documentary about their school. The amazing Sarah Cruz on will be in the main library December 11th talking about her book. I cried to dream again Sarah spent two plus decades on the side for the murder of her abuser. And with a support and amazing campaign. She was freed and wrote this memoir that is really, it's stunning. It's tragic, but it's also really empowering. And so is she. She was featured on episode 13 of your hustle called dirty water. If you have any questions, please come to the library. The best day of the library is Sunday. So come on down. And then next week, December 12th and 13th, our final two one city one book events featuring William James Association with their brothers and pen, a writing and reading group in then Quentin. And then inspiration, knowledge and curiosity while incarcerated. And this is a panel featuring. Dr. Jeannie Austin, who is an SF PL librarian. She works for a jail and reentry services department. And this panel is going to be amazing. And then one last event that's not one city one book, but is just an event that's going to be great this Thursday. 630 the correct theater. If you haven't been to the correct theater, it's a gorgeous full on auditorium. And we'll be screening the mission. And this is about. The Latino task force and the work they did during the pandemic and beyond. So please come and check that out. All right. So without further ado. Today we have my, I'm going to call them dear friends from now, because we have worked together for a while now. And I'm just always blown away and impressed by the work that they do. And they are very hardworking. They're very dedicated. And the people that they help are also. You know, just impressed by them. So I just know what they are lifelines to a lot of people. Let's thank them. So today we have ABO comics and they're going to be talking about tell away 411, which is their podcast. And ABO is a Bay Area based prisoner support organization. And today we have with us. Brian. I should have asked you to pronounce your last name. So Brian. Stelmigan. Speeds. Speeds. Yes. Thank you. As a formerly East post-based artists. And the author of the boy of hearts, the first of three part autobiography series. Reduced and published by ABO comics publication. Brian Megan is a formerly incarcerated artist and personal trainer. His work is featured throughout queer prisoners, comics anthology. And the ABO comics publication. If you didn't catch on by now, ABO is a publisher as well as a podcast. And so they do a lot of publishing from folks inside. ABO comic staff here today is Casper. And all emails. And they're going to be leading the panel today. And I'm just going to give a brief overview of ABO is a collective of creators and activists who work to amplify the voices of. LGBTQ prisoners through art. And I'm going to stop sharing now. And turn it over. To ABO comics and our panel. Hi, everyone. Hello. Hi. Hello. Before we get into questions for our panelists who have so wonderfully obliged us with their presence. We are going to take a moment to remember somebody who was intended to be on this panel with us. A dear friend of Casper's for many years of letter writing. A person who had come home to us a while ago and has since passed on to the next realm. So we have a small memorial that we'd like to share with all of y'all about him and his life. So one day I was Jefferson Borbitt. So the streets in our Brazil. The next day I was Richard Romero of Venezuela. So did everyone in prison, they always referred to you as Richard? Did nobody, nobody knew you as Jefferson? Nobody believed that Jefferson exists. More than two decades without the right to have my name. Without the right to have my nationality. We don't have the right to speak my own language. I looked at myself and said, what happened? You are barely 40 years old and your life ends. And then now I'm 63 years old. I didn't stop me to continue to do more work. I continued to write, to spread the knowledge. I'm doing what I think I supposed to do during all these years. You know, in this work, working with people who are in prison, I know the gigantic miscarriages of justice in our system and the way people are villainized and accused of things that they didn't do all the time, but it's constantly shocking to me still to hear how far these things are taken and how many lives are absolutely destroyed by it. I just, I appreciate you sharing all that you went through and letting people know and continuing to put on a happy, smiling face all the time and be so brave in sharing it and continuing your work. And you've been through more in your lifetime than anybody should ever have to endure. And I just, I wish I could give you the biggest hug and see you in person. I would say ABO Comics made the difference of my life in so many ways. I can even start to tell you guys gave me the hope. I needed so much in that horrible moment. And you guys continue to give this hope after I left that nightmare. So I would say, my gratitude to you is eternal. I have no words to express how much you guys are important, not only to me, but to other people. To get to know just like the interesting, most incredible things about human beings, it's a dream come true for me to get to talk to you and hear your story. And the privilege of getting to share that with the world is that it's so much more meaningful to me than I could ever put into words. I'd say my story is a little more unique than most stories, but also has to do with a lot of people who actually are living that same kind of experience I had not to the level I had, hopefully not, but they are also experiencing the whole version of their nightmares and you are there helping them to actually overcome this. And that means a lot, a real lot. Absolutely, Jefferson, it's so good to see you. You guys are the best. Well, we both send you love. I'll have Ollie come over here and say hi to you real quick. You guys are so great. For you. We love you very much. So much love to you and to everybody. Give the cats some good pets for us. Oh, yes, please. That'll be great. That'll be great. Thank you guys. See you guys next week. We'll see you next week. Hi, Jefferson. Thank you all for taking a moment to remember with us, you know, I think we're going to have to talk a little bit more about Jefferson because he's someone who should have been on this panel today. But for obvious reasons, couldn't be. Casper, is there anything that you wanted to say about Jefferson before we move on? Sure. Yeah. I wish he could have been here with us. I know he would have really loved to be able to tell his story. Tell the story himself, but he left us with so many incredible books. And I think he was the one who took care of Jefferson. He was the one who took care of Jefferson. He was the one who was caretakers who took care of him. In the final months of his life and became his forever chosen family. And we just, yeah, thank you for helping us remember him and keep his story alive. And we miss him very much. In addition to all of those publications, we will be releasing an episode or podcast in more. In addition to all of those publications, we will be releasing an episode over the last few months of his life. So watch this space for that episode. And we're so privileged and honored to have two of our really good friends here today, who were on our first season of Tell the Way 411. People that we wrote with while they were incarcerated and got to publish some of their incredible, incredible comics and incredible books. And we're so privileged to share their stories. So we have some questions that we'd love to ask, but maybe you two could introduce yourself and say a little bit about who you are. Okay, who is that? Me, Sabrian. Yeah, let's, yeah, go ahead. Okay. My name is Sabrian Speese. I'm a Casper. Back in. I was born in 2000 and maybe 15, 17. And the 2000, the year 2020, I mean, 15. I forgot one, but. 2017. 2017. And well, I have, I have a personality disorder. And I thought that I was by myself. I felt like it felt like the whole world was painting me into a corner. I had a mom who was a pastor who, who thought that she can break the curse of me being gay by doing things to my body. I never, I never knew in the years down the road that that pain would turn into, would turn into a personality named Devin. And how does Devin work is, how it works is, okay, I'm Sabrian, I'm Sabrian right now. Like, if I get triggered, if I see maybe like a black woman hitting a black child, or I see a person of color hitting a child, that right there would make me lose, I guess lose control. I mean, I guess lose control of the body. My body would get weak and I would lose control of it. And, and I will be put into a PTSD episode. Now where where I go, when I go to my PTSD episode, I really can't tell you, it depends on what triggered me. Sometimes things tricking me to take me back when, when the times, the exact time and the date of how I was being abused. And sometimes I could be stuck in that PTSD episode, sometimes for months. And so, Devin, who has control of the body, his job is to protect my body for homophobia and my past and mom and any homophobia to come. So he has been there throughout my whole life. I would say that he's more like, I guess he's like my brother, he's actually my only real friend that I don't know how to say, like sometimes I can never ever say I'm really alone because when I look at a mirror and I'm talking to myself in a mirror, I feel like that, you know, it's okay because I'm talking to Devin and Devin is not going to judge me. Because I know a lot of people don't understand me. You know, there's no such thing as a person with preside disorder. You really be surprised how powerful your spirit is. So for some reason, I mean, I never threw in a million years, you know, while I'm prison, that I would run into ABL comics. I was kind of scared to tell my story at first because I felt like, you know, people didn't really believe in personality disorder. You know, personality disorder starts when a lot of minds develop in, you know, and so whatever personality, whatever different alter egos are formed during that time while your mind is developing, those are the ones you're going to have for the rest of your life. Now, I know y'all may not say this to me, but I know I'm a freak. I am, I'm a freak. I am. I'm a dangerous freak. I'm a freak, dangerous man. You know who Devin is? Devin is a person who's the washer. Devin is a animal. Y'all don't understand, like, I'm a very dangerous person. At first I felt like, no, I'm not, until like me and Devin have a journal that we both share. And when he has the body, he does things to the, he has the body and remember, I'm going and I'm, you know, I'm in this PTSD episode where I got put in because I was triggered to be put in there. And Devin has the body. And I honestly, Devin knows that no matter who's around, who's talking to me, mentally, spiritually, physically, his job is to wipe the slate clean. Sometimes he does things to people just to try to break, just to try to hoping that it can break the stereotype. So I don't know what else to really, well, that's that part there. And for some reason, I gotta say, I was in prison as this guy in prison. I mean, this girl in prison, I'm sorry, it's a girl. And his name is Rico. And I met him in prison. Well, I'm sorry, I didn't meet him in prison. I'm sorry. Devin met him in prison. Because I mean, I don't know if y'all have read my book. You know, I have a. Hey, so Rian, we're going to ask you this question later on. Do you mind holding on to that for a second? Okay, yeah, go ahead. Cool, cool. Brian, you want to introduce yourself really quick. Hi, I'm Brian. So I was in prison. Seven and a half years. I got out about two and a half years ago. And I met up with a bio comics towards the end. They black and pink. Was a publication that was like only lifeline sometimes to gay community. Incarcerated a community. And when they had an ad in the back about this new. This is a bio comics. I was looking for. Comics and they gave full instructions on how to create a comic. So it was very engaging and very welcoming. And. And yeah, I drew a comic for the first time really, and. They published it and they were there. Passport and Holly are just so amazingly engaged. They would write back and they would. They let her write and they talk to people and it's really so important. During your time of self. Solitude in there. And when I got out, they had asked me to be on the podcast. So when I got off probation, I. Decided to make San Francisco one. One of my first trips. To meet them in person, these people that were kind of a lifeline for my last two years of prison. Which is oddly sometimes. You know, you know, you know, you know, you know, right before you get out is sometimes harder than while you're in for the. For the bulk of it. Because now all of a sudden all the anxiety of getting out. Is there. Well, thank you both so much for giving some intros and some backstory. And. Goodness, it's so glad. I'm just so glad to have you home and to have you on this panel. And you both are so very special to me. And I just want to give you a little bit into. If you, if you both would like to talk a little about what your experience was like. Doing an actual podcast interview about. You know, what you experienced in prison. Whoever wants to start school. I guess I could start. My experience in prison was not good. I can't say it wasn't good. It was. When you were in prison. And you are a proud gay man. It's like. It's like you have. It's like. All Maggie, your label as. A sex offender or your label as a pedophile or you label as a. All these things. It's like. They've been times that. They've been times that. Guards have came in. And. And they, and they, and they, and they beat. And if their child was gay. At home, they would come in and they would take it out on you. They would say it's because people like you. No, you're not going to eat the day. No, you're not going to eat the day. No, you're not going to go and get your canteen today. No, you're not going to get this today. I'm just having this day and you're going to have this day and you're going to have this day and you're going to get this day and you're not going to get this day. No, you're just having this day. Yes. That was one of the situation I had. This was every day, every day. So it was like, I was going through situations where. It was like, it was all my fault. They're they're child, their child being a proud gay was my fault. So sometimes. I would be, I was, I was. Out of out of. cars would come in and just wake me up and say, you're going to the hole. I'm not like, what did I do wrong? Oh, no, you're going to the hole because it's all, because it's all your fault. And I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like, what are you talking about? Because it's all your fault. Just this package, shit up and go to the hole. So that was one of the situations that I had. Then the other situation was the fact that the guards were homophobic. The fact that they were homophobic, they, there's certain things that they let go. There's certain things that they turned out to cheek. Like when they seen, they will let you get molested. They'll let you get raped. They'll let you do sexual favors. You do sexual favors on the guards. You really want to be a girl? I put all these damn hours for you to protect you in prison. The least you can do is give me a sexual favor. I'm like, well, I mean, I'm telling a sergeant. Okay, well, you tell the sergeant, okay, all we got to do is make up some type of lie. And guess what? You'll be in population every day. We're just always going to be just me and you. You just going to keep on and give me sexual favors until I feel like letting up off of you. That sounds like such an awful experience. And I really appreciate that you shared it with us here. And I'm wondering, Brian, if you have anything that you want to add? It's a varied experience for me. I remember starting to view my prison experience as like, there was the first year getting adjusted. And the first time I was in cell, the first time I was sent to the solitary was for actually a relationship with someone. And that was devastating. But it also gave me time to realize what I could come back stronger. And when I got out of the hole after 60 days, that first time, I knew better what, so I had a drinking and drug problem. And I learned to adopt those qualities without drinking and drug anymore and living very authentically so that nobody could come at me because most everyone is hiding something. And the less I had to hide, the less I could be hurt. The only thing I really had to hide was my HIV status because literally on the rules book, there is a rule that says because of the perceived, because of the misperception of perceived contamination, I could be fired for most jobs in prison. So although they admit in the actual rule that is the misperception, it is still actually a rule. So that was one thing I really had to work to hide. And it was also a challenge. It was a challenge with people hitting on you and being, this is before the knowledge of undetectable equals untransmittable. So there was, I went through a whole journey through prison and understanding my queerness versus my previous thoughts of just being a gay man and understanding the guys in prison were always gonna view me as a woman. I could play spades with them. I could watch basketball games. I could work out with them every day. I was always gonna be the girl. So it was actually in a weird way liberating for me to no longer be an expectation I could recreate whatever I wanted. And coming back and talking to you both is, there was crying that Casper lovingly cut out of most of my podcast. Yeah, I wanna hear from both of you what Casper was like as an interviewer. Oh no. Well, Casper brung out a side of me that I didn't think I had in me to tell. Like, because I lived in a dark world and how she asked the questions, she knew how to ask the question the right way to make me comfortable to just say who I really am. And she made me feel like, you know what? Say what you say. And together, I'm gonna be by your side to explain it to the world. I needed that. I needed to hear that. Especially I really, really needed to hear that. And the fact that she cared about my relationship in prison, I really didn't want to tell Casper that. I'm not gonna lie. I did not want to tell Casper that. I really thought that Casper was gonna judge me. You know, having a, I really didn't know she, I didn't know she really understood what my movement was because like me, I'm from North Philly, where they had their own gay community. Where it's like a gay neighborhood, they call it. So it's like where I wanna be in, I'm considered a homo thug. What is a homo thug? A homo thug is a person who was the rockweller of the LGBT community, who would do whatever it takes, even whatever it takes to protect the LGBT community. Well, I tell you what I did, I probably not could have this incriminate myself, but I took that to prison with me. I met a man named Rico, and from him from the distance, and how genuine he was. The one that day he was on the inside, okay, right now, okay, I'm Devin. I'm sorry, I switched over, I apologize. I'm Devin right now. I'm the masculine part. Thanks for letting us know. I apologize, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm the masculine part of this body, Devin. And I met this girl named Rico in prison. And just looking from a distance, you know, because I can feel what's Sabrina feels. I knew Sabrina had that side of him, which was Donna on the inside. And to see, never thought that I could run into somebody who was just like Donna. That right there touched me in a way where I wanted, I really felt like there was a vibe so deep that I felt like I was actually married in prison. Like this is, I came across, I came around the homo thugs and said, listen, look at them over there. Look at them over there. They wanna come over here. They want to be claimed. That's how you say it in prison, claimed. So once you were claimed, you got the world. Long as you come home to a homo thug, long as you come home to a wifey boy, that's all that matters. You know, the stuff that I still in food, still in food from comic, still in food from the prison pantry and giving it to Rico when I went back home to Hellman. For some reason, how did he cook the food? He figured it out somehow. All I know, I came back and I had food cooked. How did he do it? I don't know, but Rilla Pat, however he did it, he made it. And it was like, he was the one that even gave me the thought of even giving it to Rico because I would ask him everything. And I'm kind of scared. Like, I don't want to lose a good friend, but I don't wanna lose a good friend, but I'm too afraid to gain a friend because I don't wanna do what I don't wanna put us back in the situation. And so there's Rico read every paper that Abiel Comet sent and said, no, these people are trustworthy. This is what you've been protecting right here. This is what you're protecting this. I trust them, you trust them. Tell them, I say, you know what? I'm gonna tell our story in comic form. When anybody listen to it, I don't know. I'm gonna tell the truth, how I protect you, how I ran one of the biggest homo thug gangs in prison. So, so deep that everybody was coming out of the class and proud. And it was like, it was no more a faggot diss, or excuse my language, or any type of discrimination. Why? Because it was like, why is what you said? It's a chance that that person might be dating a homo thug. And you know, bringing train those homo thugs in a way that made them like, look, if you are a homo thug, yes, sir. How do you know I'm a homo thug? We're being trained by you, sir. Being a homo thug doesn't stop because you're in prison. Homo thug is, I said, it's a big responsibility being a masculine person. People think a masculine person is just a masculine person, they're just a top. Oh, it's a big responsibility because you got a woman to protect. Rico's a woman. I got a letter from Rico. Now, I haven't seen Rico. I haven't talked to Rico for a long time. You talked about a couple of years. He sent me a letter and said, do you think of me? I said, no, that can't be Rico. So I didn't believe it. So I put a letter back and I said, prove me that you're Rico. Tell me some things that I only I know. So I did a questionnaire and he answered all the questions. Hey, I'm masculine. I'm crying and like, oh my God, is you serious? Oh, I might be coming out in two years. What am I gonna do? What I'm going through, where I'm going to live? I said, what? What are you talking about? You come home to the homo thug. You're coming home to the homo thug. And I hear you still the same. I said, well, I'm trying to change. I'm not gonna lie because you can understand me. She's they endeavor not sobriety because sobriety is the girl. Oh my God, you serious? And I said, and you can do marriage out here. Things have changed since you've been gone. Oh my God, you actually, I'm gonna be safe. I'm gonna be okay. I said, you're gonna be okay. And I understand more, I told, and the last letter I wrote was more proud you are, to be who you are. The more masculine I am, makes me more masculine. He said, what does that mean? Just think about it. Some people may not know what that means. Some people may. It makes me more masculine. Do people ask me in the street, are you gay? Am I gay? You a faggot? I'm not a faggot. I'm not a faggot. What are y'all, I'm not a faggot. Oh my bad. I heard the word spread through all the different states. No disrespect. I have a shirt. I have about 13 shirts that say homo thug on it. So now I'm writing back and forth to recall back and forth in prison. He's kind of scared. He said some things that happened to him. But now things have changed. Cause he knew eventually he's going through, I said, go through what you gotta go through. Don't get in no trouble. I got you. I got you. Long as I say, I got you. Long as the homo thug say you got you. Or a female stud. You know, those who know what a female stud is. Okay, all right now. So long as a female stud or homo thug say we got you, we got you, we got you, but we got you. You just be who you supposed to be and we won't be what we supposed to be. And that's where it is right now. Evan, that's so great. I'm so thrilled to hear that you're back in contact with Rico and that you're continuing to write and he can come home and have a home with you. And it's definitely not lost on me and it means so much to me to have had your trust. Because Brian, we were talking about this yesterday that it is so hard for people on the inside to put trust in people on the outside and trust that they have their best interest at heart and trust that they don't want to manipulate or take advantage of folks. And so it means so much to all of us at ABO Comics that we were able to earn your trust and hopefully keep it. And Brian, is there anything that you would like to add in that realm or anything else about your experience? Yeah, I agree with both Devin and you guys for that and Ollie that trust is extremely important. Yeah, we were talking about this because I do have a lot of doubt about intentions, about navigating the honesty of people and you become very solitary in your pursuits in prison and that you are going to rely on somebody is, first of all, even if you do think that you can trust somebody, it's proven even with that first relationship, you get moved. If the guards think you're comfortable or if somebody thinks that you remotely even exhibit happiness, they'll try to take it down. And that was what happened with my first and I was we got sent to solitary for it and then got separated for the rest of our time. So even if you think you have something that you can trust, it can be pulled away from you. So exhibiting happiness or trust is dangerous. And then coming out, we don't feel like society trusts us and we don't trust them just as much. So the correspondences with you both during my last two years though really made me feel engaged in a way that I hadn't for a while. I was also very fortunate. My last year, I met one of my best friends who actually called me today. She is back in, so she and I did our last year together because she got jammed up again. So she and I talked today and she was telling me that how much our friendship means to her and it really is to people inside to find somebody. They had, she had done 20 years before we met, got out, got jammed up again and is now back for another 12 years possibly. So we talk on the phone now as often as she wants. I make sure to keep money on the phone so that she can call whenever she wants. Just because being a queer person in prison, she was telling me today that trusting even just the other queer people is hard for her and which I understand. And I don't know if she's in with right now. I don't know what types of situations she's in in different prison than we were in together. So I don't know how it moves, but one of my friends is there and I have him watching out but trust me, she can take care of herself. But actually he called me today too. So it is that having somebody on the outside that they can talk to, even especially when it's been somebody that has been in prison and understands the code that she can talk in so that other people can't clock what she's saying is important because if we can talk shorthand that helps a lot because you don't want someone as the podcast is called you're hustling and clocking your moves because a lot of queer movement in prison is under the radar as much as possible because we're disliked by so many people but yet sought after by so many people and it becomes a very confusing language to try to keep up with because the guards dislike us, the other inmates dislike us but then everybody also wants to come out of sideways either as a hit on or as a threat. Like I remember somebody told me that I heard overheard one of my friends say, oh, you can't make gay jokes, Brian will beat you up. Like I was actually really proud of that. I was like, yeah, I was like, I will take a stand. That is what I will stand up for. I was like, I will not let you bash us anymore. That's it, I'm done. I was like, you all are hiding stuff, I'm not. So yeah, I'm not taking it anymore. That rocks. I wanna leave time for audience questions but I wanted to pivot really quickly to looking towards the future. Both of y'all are incredible creators who I'm so fortunate to work with and I wanted to give both of you space to talk about what your current projects are, whether they're with us or with other organizations or just entirely from your own heads. I know that Sabrina's working on a book and Devin too is also working on it. So it's a joint collaboration, which is exciting. And Brian was sharing with us yesterday about some of the advocacy work that you're doing. So I wanted to leave space open to talk about those things. Okay, well, my goal is, okay. All right, this is Devin, this is Devin. Okay, I mean, Sabrina wrote a second book because I wanted to, the world, they hear raw material from a person. I'm a person who shares the same body. I don't see myself as all to ego. I don't see myself as all those acronyms that they had. I'm not part of that. That's totally Devin, that has nothing to do with me. I am a full, I was born in this body. Homophobia, transphobia, together, what other things together gave birth to me. So my goal, yeah, well, actually, where everybody wrote a new idea, everybody wrote a book, The Boy of Hearts. I wanted to go a little bit deeper into it by actually doing an audio book to see how that plays out. At first, I was kind of scared to do the audio book because I've been doing research and I found out that I am the first person, I would be the first person who helped a author write a book, because they say I'm not considered an author. They say I'm not considered an author, that's what they say, that's what my therapist said. She could have, well, that's what she said. She said, you can't put your name on a book, you can't because you're not author, you're just you. I think that was disrespectful, but I took it for what it is. I didn't harm her, not like that, but so that's that right there. I'm trying to do audio books to see how far that goes. I'm not that good at writing. I also, in a process of what I actually just got done my second book, I gave it to Oli. I don't know if she read some of it, but I know it seems kind of, I wrote it this time. I wrote more of it this time, so I don't know how I write because I'm not from y'all world. So I don't know if they can understand what it means because I use words different than y'all because y'all pitch our words together different than I do. So I don't know, I'm still learning how to talk but the word's the right way with y'all in a good way. That was a bad person at one time. So I'm trying to get better, talking better and being better. So, and I'm hoping that I just don't know, that kind of scares me a little bit. I feel like that you're not the first person to do this. Like, is this a book or is this a wishcraft book? Like, I don't know how the word's going to take it. So I wanted to see what you felt about that, Oli. I mean, I love it. I don't want to spoil too much for the audience but we will be publishing that second of three parts, at least so far of this book and you will be credited alongside Sabrina in the author section. So how are they going to put it down? They're going to put, how is it going to be written? So is it going to be like Sabrina Speist and Devin or is it going to be... That's the plan so far. Oh, okay. They'll be credited as co-authors together. Okay. And I wanted to ask the audience, be your honest opinion. I'm a person who likes honest opinion. This is how I am, because good criticism, bad criticism, they both, they both should get credited. Do you think, I mean, with... How can I see it? See, that's how I set my debt good with my words. If you saw a book like that out there, like, let's say I decided to write my own book myself, just me, without the help, because without the help of Sabrina and fully write all by myself. I mean, could y'all see yourself picking a book up? Just be honest. If not, it's okay. I just want to know somebody from the audience. How do you feel about coming across a book that's written by a person who is like a person like myself? But I don't know, I don't know how to say it. I think it would be extremely interesting. I read your first book and I can't wait for the other two. Yeah. No, I mean, okay, go ahead, go ahead. It sounds like you're getting feedback from the audience to that effect too. Yeah, people seem fascinated and curious to read it. Yeah, Devin, your point of view is going to be just as interesting as Sabrina's. But even if it's not from, you know, it's not part of y'all. Of course. Yes, absolutely. I really need to read more about me. Yeah, I think what I love about the work that we get to do is that we get the opportunity to publish a lot of firsts. So people making their first comic ever, like both of you got to do, people getting to express themselves in a book that most of our audience members or just people in general have not gotten this perspective from mainstream kind of publishing. Like to get to hear the stories of people in prison, the real life experiences that they've had that differ so much from like our average kind of book that you might pick up in a bookstore, I think really makes what we get to do very unique and very special. And I think it's absolutely incredible that you are writing down your experience to the very best of your ability and you're doing an absolutely incredible job doing it. And I can't wait to delve into this book more next year and actually get to publish it. But I also want to leave some time for Brian to share some of the projects that you're working on too. Yes. So one of the things I've been working on for many, many years since I was in prison was a book series for children of incarcerated parents. So children of incarcerated parents are underserved and underrepresented and under attack a lot honestly. And so to further that I've been, actually I got my peer support counseling for New York. So I'm planning to move to New York next year. And I want to also work in prison reentry, specifically trying to create a space for queer people reentering. Because between the suicide rate and the relapse rate for queer people it's higher. And it's something that in the recovery rooms it feels sometimes awkward for me to have, I had seven and a half years of sobriety when I got out but I didn't have a sober family. And then I had to reentry work with the same people that were the perpetrators of the issues and some of the violence I experienced in prison. So now I didn't have a safe place there to talk and I want to help try to create that space and bring some of the resume writing and the trust programs and some other listening and decision-making programs that I helped try to create while I was in prison to reentry. Because reentry is a place where I feel there is more opportunity to open up dialogue than in the confines of a prison. There are people that are far more knowledgeable about the prison system than I am. I know my experience, but I can help listen to people's reentry better. Awesome, thank you so much for both of you. Thank you both of you for sharing. I love you both so much and I'm so excited for all that you're working on. Do we have any questions from the audience that we want to try and get to? I see somebody asked, were you not able to be out inside or were you when there were ramifications? I think we talked a little bit about that. I admire you both so much for being out and authentic while you were in prison because a lot of times it's very scary for queer people. That's information that a lot of people have to keep to themselves and hide that part of themselves for their own safety and security. And I think it's really incredible that you two were able to be your authentic selves while you were inside. But I don't know if there's anything else that you might want to share on that. Let me tell you, that was not as easy as you think it was. That was the most dangerous thing that I've ever put myself in. Let me tell you something. I have been paralyzed in prison. I have been paralyzed. And then I sit because I sit in myself, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this all the way. And this is Devin, this is Devin. And they was like, because they brunt me out. The guards was like started, because they know I was a person, which I call person eye disorder. And they was like saying things to me to trigger me and saying things to me to trigger me. And I just kept on being beaten up. I just kept on being beaten up, being paralyzed. I have had my arm broken. I had my wrist broken. Those who read my, well, you know I'm blind on my left eye. So I lost vision in this eye. So can you imagine when you know you're blind in a one eye and you lose a vision in this eye? I have put myself with some dangerous, the nurses have told me, like why did you put yourself out there in that dangerous? I said, because I said, number one, I know I'm leaving. Number two, I'm leaving my man in here, my wife, I'm leaving my wife in here. And I want all the other homo thugs out there who I have fought for with them, with their situation with their wives in prison. I wanna really put it down deep and rich so they can take care of my wife. I put myself in some dangerous situation. So I would say that's what we need out here, but I'm not here to try to get nobody hurt. My mind, the way I see life and how I see things, it's not how the way you see things. And I can't, I can only represent me as devil. I can't represent the subriant. You know, something that y'all said, don't be, it's not y'all fall, okay? Something that y'all said kind of triggers subriant. So he subriant, so he went to a PTSD episode, but don't feel bad. Life is, you know, I said to what I am, I have personality, so it's what it is, okay? But yeah, I put myself in some dangerous situations for some reason, I just don't know how to control it. I felt like me being beaten was like, it was like made me smile. It made me like, it was like joy. For them to beat me for a reason, for them to beat me for a good reason, I know it may not seem right to y'all, but they beat me and they put me in a hospital and put me here and going through rehabilitations and, and oh, you a girl, huh? Okay, well, you gonna be our girl for us guards who have doors doing night shifts overnight. You gonna be that, you gonna be that girl that, oh wait, you a homo-fuck, right? No, you ain't gonna be, we wanna try to snatch your homo-fuck from you. They have guards that try to snatch my homo-fuck from me, but because I love my baby so much and I don't wanna get separated from my baby. God, I know he was saying that some of them try to take that from me. They have guards that have came to me and said, look, we know that y'all are to our item, okay? Now I'm putting this out there, but it is for those who judge me, it is what it is. Yes, I did what I had to do to try to protect my boy, my boy and wishes, wishes, swallowing my pride and drugging my masculinity in prison just to keep me and him in the same room so I can protect him. So not everybody can do this. I don't want nobody to be a rockweller. I was telling Casper, I wanted to change, and I'll tell you that Casper, I wanted to change being a rockweller. I told you that, right? I don't know. No, yeah, you probably forgot that. I said that I'm trying to be in an email. I said, I'm trying to be a better, will I always be a homo-fuck? No, I will always be a homo-fuck, but I'm trying to be in a different direction with it where stop making body counts. I'm not gonna lie to you. I might as well tell the truth, but you would still accept me that it's what it is. I do whatever I can to try to pave the way for the new generation of the LGBT. That's just how I am. I've been doing that in prison. I've been doing it before prison. This is how I am. But through your help, making this movie means the world to me. I'm not smart, you know what I mean? I'm Devin. I can barely make sentences right. I only get worse when I hear you say them. I put them down, try to put everything together. So making this movie, what changed me, even changed me as a person. The boy of hearts by subringing and Devin and explaining who Devin is. Like I was telling you, I don't get mad when somebody call me a faggot because I told her, I mean, I'm sorry, ooh, that's lit. When I told Casper that faggot is an acronym to me. That means to me, I tell the girls out here, the fabulous and the gorgeous go out tonight. I tell everybody that. So everybody that's around me and somebody say faggot, everybody start clapping and cheering and dancing in the street. They get everybody feel like, man. And then I told them a story about the word faggot. That the word faggot came from, I told all the kids that come in the circle, say, I'm gonna tell you something. The worst faggot is back in the day, they used to hang gays up and they used to have these sticks, they used to put underneath gays and set them on fire. Those sticks are called faggots. That's why they call people faggot. That's why they call gays faggot. And to know that they know that, they know that I'm trying to take your advice and try to change in a better way. I'm not perfect because I'm learning, I'm still learning this stuff, therapy and EBT, BBT skills but all these skills things y'all had, I'm still trying to learn but it's not gonna be easy when I have my mom in the back of my, our mom in the back of my mind. That right there is what makes me the gorilla I am. Yeah, Devin, you were born of really intense trauma and I remember when you emailed me and just laid out how hard you're trying and what you're doing in therapy and how hard you're working to become better and do better, that means so much and life is just a process of trying to heal and do better and you're doing incredible and we're just very happy to be part of it. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, that's what I'm saying because I used to cry, I stopped crying in prison like and I'm Devin because everybody was calling me, you the only person, y'all the only person that haven't called me a freak or put me in a glass box and do you do this Sabrina in a glass box and do all these things to him to see what triggers him or what doesn't trigger him and torture, kind of torture us. Are you the only people that figure out how to speak to us in a way where it even makes me respect? Even me respect you because for me, I'm gonna tell you even gays myself, even gays, I can barely even trust gays because I'm still learning it because some of that I feel like some people don't know what it means is to be in gay. Some people don't know that the meaning of being gay. That's just me, I'm just saying, but. Thank you so much for sharing Devin. I know we're coming to a close here on time. We actually got plenty of time. Are we going till 8.30? Yep. Oh, okay, nevermind. Well, then we've got plenty of time. Brian, I want to give you the floor. I don't remember what the question was, I got it. I think it was ramifications of being openly gay in prison. Yes, yes, yeah, that was the question. So as I said, I was sent to the hole for the first time because of my relationship. There's a federal law called PREA and it's a Prison Rape Elimination Act. Sounds like a fantastic concept. It is weaponized against gay people heavily. It basically made every relationship, anything consensual or unconsensual considered rape. So even though I had a consensual relationship, that's why we were sent to solitary was because of PREA and I actually got a chance to talk to somebody about it one time. There was a, somebody came in and they actually asked me a question about what my opinion of PREA was and I asked them why would you separate two people for a consensual relationship? And they said, because those two people would fight harder for each other. I was like, and yet you have family members and they go, well, we don't know if they know their family members and I'm like, so they literally just try to separate us and they try to keep us all separate from each other. And I remember I was so fortunate that there was one of the people on the block with me when Pulse happened and it was one of the rare times I was actually on a block with another queer person and I wasn't by myself. And I remember waking up that morning and watching the news and being absolutely shocked. I'm so happy that they were there with me to share that space because it was difficult and it's very isolating. And when the guy that I was sent to solitary with when he left, we actually were in about four years, four or five years together and when he left people came at me because he had been getting into fights and despite us not being the same building he was still always very protective. And I remember somebody tried to sexually assault me and smack my head against the bunk and after trying to choke me, but it also falls in, it also fell into my standing up and being authentic and not letting him scare me. So I came back at him with words actually because he was bigger than me. So I knew I couldn't fight him but I knew that I also had what I'm not proud of anymore but was a slick mouth. And yeah, the slick mouth kept me out of trouble more and it is something that I really had to, I had to stop it because it was starting to hurt me. My own anger and my own defensiveness and my own verbal and physical violence was getting out of hand and I had to pull back and I started to read and write a lot more and started to really focus on my future instead of my current situation and having you guys was a pivotal thing because it gave me, as I said, it gave me trust in somebody on the outside. Gotcha. Yeah. Thank you both for sharing your responses to that question. It looks like we have one more question for our panelists and then a couple of questions for, I guess, ABO. I'll ask them to Casper. So, but I'll start with the question for our panelists. It's written, how do you think your relationship to your race and your identity as a queer person has shifted from when you were incarcerated to where you find yourself today? I feel it, you know, when I was going through what I went through with my mom and then, you know, and then leave in there and then go into prison, for some reason, it seemed like being a person of color, a black person, that is one of the most dangerous things in the world, being a black person and being gay because of the fact that it's like, it's like being black, like you got some people out there. I know you may not see this right, but just listen to me. You got some people who look up to people of color for being brave, people look up to, you know what? No, man, I can do it, shoot, that boy can do it, I can do it. So it's like people look up to black people to be brave and stand up for themselves and Martin Luther King and all of them, they look up to being brave, not trying to be racist, you know, even some of the rap songs you got other races that will rap that song just to feel brave. So it's like, it's like when you find out that you are, what people find that you are and you're somebody, especially in the hood or in prison, there is a very slim chance that you can be murdered. Like I've almost been murdered. This ain't no game, I've almost been murdered in prison because of the fact that I had a masculine voice. This is me, not Sabrina, had a masculine voice. I came from North Philly, North Philly's considered, I know you're all the way over there, but I know you have heard of North Philly, have me y'all. You've heard North Philly, right? Okay, so I'm from, I'm considered from North Philly. So what are you trying to do? You trying to mess up, you trying to disrespect? You trying to disrespect people, not look up to black, people bad enough that people don't look up to black people as it is, for anything. Or people from the hood for anything. So now you're trying to mess that up for us? That's what people say to me, that's what I hear. So you gonna take this ass, what boy, we gonna break your fingers or you gonna break your legs or you gonna be a body count, what it's gonna be? Well, I guess you gonna break my fingers. So that's what I go through. If all those out there listening who know that I'm telling the truth and you probably think I'm breaking the code, it is what it is. That's all I can wait say for that. Thank you. So it's actually something I wrote an essay on for myself. So I've been writing some essays as in my own form of journaling and also processing what happened. And I had read a book called by Chris Wilson called The Master Plan. And it was all about leaving a blueprint for other people to follow. His was about getting released from prison and the steps he took before getting out. Mine is more about leaving a very honest mental journey to process things so that others can maybe hopefully glean some insight. And so for me, because I have extreme anxiety privilege in my race and appearance that I easily fit into the gay man mold. I was a bartender and a personal trainer and a sex worker. And I learned to navigate that language of manipulating and sarcasm and I could control the bar, the client that paid me to be there with them. I could do, I could master the situation. And as I said, I learned to adopt that those qualities while I was in prison, but sober. And I used them to my advantage. I also realized while I was there that they weren't beneficial to my mental health. And so towards the end of my bid, I started to adjust. And I started to, as I said, with no matter how much I presented as a gay man I was always going to be the girl. And it was very liberating because I didn't have the toxic masculinity expectation of the gay white man community to live up to. So I was able to easier embrace like the guy that I was with first. He would always tell me when I was on the phone and my hip would jut out and I would stand in a more feminine way. He would always tell me to tighten up. And we used to get so pissed off at him. But it was his attempt to keep me safe. But it all of a sudden became much more liberating because I didn't have to hold up to any ideal of my own. And I was able to, I used my favorite phrase by the end of prison became because I stopped talking to people in a slick way. And I started to build and I started to say in a very firm tone was I don't talk to you that way. So you can not talk to me that way. And that was it. There was no snicker at the end. There was no laughing at all. There was very straightforward and people shut down because they didn't know how to take it. And I leaned into my queer space and the joy, the queer joy in going and shopping now for one of my friends who is transitioning just all the pleasure that I get now out of the diversity of the world and not being in the gay white man silo is so much more liberating and enjoyable than what my life was before. So in many ways it was like a rebirth. Wow, that's really powerful. Amazing. Well, thank you so much to our attendees for their really insightful questions. There are just a couple left that I am going to sort of combine together and ask Casper. First one is a logistical question. How do we get in contact with people on the inside who might wanna write it with us or create publications with us or be interviewed on our podcast? Cool, I'll try and keep the answers brief here since we're running out of time. We mostly communicate with people through the mail system. Most prisons still seem to be stuck in the 17th century. So we communicate mostly through letter writing, sending through snail mail. We also communicate through phone systems which most are from the 80s. So that can be very difficult, especially with trying to record phone interviews for our podcast over that. There's lots of noise and crackling and phone calls dropping and all sorts of stuff. So those are the two main ways. Some prisons are starting to get technology. So folks are being issued tablets where they have access to a little bit of like an email system. Some prisons only go one way though. So they can maybe either send out a message but not receive it or receive a message but not send it out. So in every prison is different across the nation. They all have their own rules and regulations along the mailroom. But actually if you go to our website and click on our pen pal section, you can find a lot of information about connecting with people in prison there. So that has like a longer answer to that question if you're interested in finding out more. Awesome, yay. And then the other one is for you as a podcast host, host of Tell Away 411. Is it challenging for you to get folks to open up when you're either interviewing them in person as we got to do with Brian or over the phone as we had to for a lot of our currently incarcerated contributors on the first season? Well, thankfully for this first season like with Brian and Sabrina and we have had connections for many years through letter writing, we stayed in contact after folks got to come back home. So we had a little bit of a friendship already built up and it was just kind of nice to sit down with a friend and hear their story firsthand. I have never interviewed people before really prior to doing this podcast. So it was a learning experience all the way around but I love just getting to talk to people and hearing all about their lives. So for me, it was always really enjoyable. I just, you know, it's pretty natural for me to just want to ask questions from people and hear more about who they are as a person and learn all about them. So this was nerve wracking for me because I'm very introverted but also wonderful and fun and I'm so appreciative of the opportunity to get to do it. For people opening up, yeah, it's sensitive topics here asking about their experiences inside prison. A lot of people go through traumatic events and a lot of people are trying to forget, you know, their time in prison or just take things that they learned and apply them to their lives now but kind of close that chapter and start a new one. So opening up those stories again can be kind of challenging for people but I think it's really important in the processing realm to kind of delve back into what happened, their experiences, writing that out is really beneficial for people. And I think speaking about it with people who love them I think it also be really beneficial. So I haven't had any real trouble in like having people open up to me but it's definitely, it's challenging in a little way because I don't wanna cross boundaries with people I don't wanna trigger them. I don't wanna ask questions that are going to make things very difficult for them, you know, in their lives now. So it's kind of a fine line to try and walk but mostly I just try and come to people with love and understanding and that seems to work pretty well, I guess. So great. Okay, last question is from me. What are your hopes and dreams for season two? Oh, that's from you. Of the podcast, yeah. From me, it's from me, it's from me to you, yeah. I thought it was from you to you asking you the question. I mean, I could answer it to you but I think you should first. My hopes and dreams for season two, I just wanna get to know more people. We get to learn about people's lives through letter writing and stuff but like folks mentioned on this panel, a lot of times people have to be very careful about what they send in letters about what they actually disclose and a lot of times we get kind of coded messages that since I haven't been incarcerated myself don't really make sense to me and I have to try and read between the lines and piece things together a lot of times because people don't wanna send something that's gonna get them in trouble or sent away from their loved ones. So I'm really excited to actually get to sit down with more folks who are coming home to us and here, yeah, or on the phone and just hear more. So I guess my hopes are just to connect with more people and feel more connected. I love that, yeah. I mean, pretty much the same. I got to guest interview my pen pal on the past season and I'm really, really excited about another potential guest interview spot with the incredible artists who drew the cover for our upcoming queer prisoners comics anthology which we will be ready to send to your homes to your loved ones for the holidays. It's off to print. We're really, really excited about this publication and the next season of the podcast next year and keeping up with everything that Brian and Sbrian and Devin will be doing in 2023. The last thing I'm gonna say, I'm gonna drop a link in the Zoom chat. We currently have a fundraiser running for all of our currently incarcerated contributors who made work for the comics anthology that we're publishing. This is something that we want folks to spread far and wide. Any little bit helps to fundraise for donations back to folks commissary accounts so they can buy essential items while they are in prison. So yeah, share with your networks please. And thank you all so much. Thank you, Brian, Sbrian, Devin for joining. It was really fun to talk to you. Okay, sang here. Thank you all, it was amazing. And I just wanna go back to one thing that was in the video which was Jefferson stated that their gratitude was eternal. And I think that from all of the people that we've heard from that these help and just being there and being able to have like a lifeline outside, it really is gratitude. So thank you for your work. And I know folks are very grateful that you are there and doing the work. Brian, Devin, thank you so much for sharing such personal stories to all of us and the library community. We thank you so much for being open and honest. And I know it can be easy. So really thank you so much. And then Casper and Ollie, keep up the damn good work. Yes, people buy your books, buy some books, give them as gifts, buy two. All right, friends, thank you so much. Have a wonderful night and we'll see you same place, same time tomorrow. Bye. Bye. Thank you. Bye.