 Welcome to the studio. Today we continue looking at the Egyptian revolution. I'll ask my guests to introduce themselves, so please start. My name is Mithwa Ali Amir and I am a professor emeritus at California State University Sacramento in the College of Business. And I'm also the executive director and the founder of Salam Islamic Center in Sacramento. Hi, my name is Sarah Mosa. I am the vice chair of the Arab American Caucus in the California Democratic Party, as well as an Egyptian activist here in Sacramento. Wonderful. Thank you for having me, Dr. Hamza. My name is Ashraf Siddique. I am the communication lead from the Egyptian American Strategic Alliance, which is the first lobby organization in the U.S. and we're definitely excited about being here today. I welcome all of you. Thank you very much for joining me today. Two points I came to my mind today. I was calling to my older sister today to wish her a happy Mother's Day. Today is the Mother's Day in Egypt. And of course, we talked again about Egypt. And she said most women are really afraid to go outside because a lot of women have been mistreated outside. They either polym or... So she said now they're forcing women just to stay home. And it looked like the brotherhood just went to take the women back like 100, 200 years ago. So that's one point. The other point that came to my... been watching on TV all the different station now is the allocation of part of the Sinai for the Palestinian people so they can live the other areas for Israel. And a lot of Egyptians are really upset about that. Of course, President Morsi and Hamas connection is really strong. So these are two points. Anyone, if you would like to address any of the issues on women? Well, I heard about it in the news and I know what's going on from reading and watching and is really disturbing to hear that. And in the meantime, really, I'm very proud of our Egyptian women sisters who really are part of the revolution from day one and like to continue also struggling to gain their freedom and civil rights as Egyptians. So I kind of want to address your point in a two-prong effort. So you're saying that or at least maybe the prominent discourse is that women are being told to stay at home by the brotherhood as a way to keep them at home and prevent them from taking part in society. I think I'm going to have to disagree with you. I may not agree with everything that the brotherhood does but I don't think that the brotherhood is perpetuating this kind of a regulation or a rule upon women for that reason. I think that there is a tremendously large amount of harassment, sexual harassment that has occurred in Egypt before the revolution and after, perhaps after this revolution. Who's doing the harassment? A great question. I haven't been able to answer it since I've been visiting Egypt since I was born. A lot of brotherhood are doing that. I don't know if you see the picture on the brotherhood headquarter where a man slammed a woman in her face and got her down on the ground. Did you see that? I didn't see that. However, there can be bad apples in all sorts of organizations. Perhaps these people are not people that the brotherhood affiliates with but those folks that are perpetuating this violence affiliate themselves with the brotherhood and they're speaking and they're ideals. So I can't speak to who is actually perpetuating this sexual harassment but we know that it's on the rise and we know that women are afraid to leave their homes not because they're being told to not leave the house but because they are frustrated as women are here in America that this rape culture of oh you look, the way that you look and the way that you dress is what made somebody want to perpetuate some sort of sexual violence against you. It's really a matter of the people that are perpetuating this violence doing that for their own whatever reason they have. It's not because of what the woman's wearing, it's not because of whatever. So in essence, whatever the women do, they will still be harassed. So why leave? Why would they leave the house? They would be happier there. Why I think the brotherhood is promoting this type of a rule is because they can't control the violence. They would rather have women not leave and the violence decreased because of the sheer lack of women that people can harass rather than find the solution to the problem because there's so many problems in Egypt right now that's not on their top priority list. They blame all the harassment on the women. Right. And it happens in America too. It's because she's out. The Muslim brotherhood. On that point I disagree. Absolutely. They do actually blame the women. They don't blame anybody else because why is she outside? She should be in a ... They may be saying ... That's what we heard so many times. And the discourse may be, oh, she knows that she's going to be harassed if she leaves. Why did she leave? I think they're bringing it from a the problem exists why leave your house rather than women belong in the house. I think the Muslim brotherhood is beyond that mentality. Some people may disagree and there have been some rules some laws that people have tried to pass in the parliament that speak otherwise but I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt and I'd like to say perhaps they're saying as the problem exists they should stay at home rather than there's a problem and we need to solve it. My nephew is working in Saudi Arabia and his daughter now in university so he's going to finish his work he's going to resign from Saudi so he can take his daughter back and forth to the college because he doesn't feel that she's safe anymore. She's not. And this is a general feeling among many of the younger or even older ladies. They just afraid to leave the house because they could be sexually harassed or could be really harmed in any different way. The reason why she's not is because the minute he says I'm afraid that this is going to happen to her her chance of being harassed increases tenfold but if he equips her with the right strategies on how to ask for help how to go out with the right people and to be surrounded by the right people that will support her, she'll be fine. I admire your optimism, go ahead. If I may jump in. When I introduced myself I said that I am the communication lead for the Egyptian American Strategic Alliance and if you remember President Obama running for elections the first time and the second time the main reason or the main platform that he used to run for elections was a platform of hope. And our goal within the organization that we set up is to really help the US government itself understand that the Egyptian people are looking for the same freedoms and values that the American society enjoys by virtue of a stellar constitution that still lives until today. The Egyptian people are looking for that hope and the issue that we're talking about is an issue between what is right now happening in Egypt and what could be. And the fact that the discourse that the first thing that is top of mind for you right now is the issue of women in Egypt tells us a couple of things. Number one, there are forces in Egypt that have basically succeeded in shifting the focus from the aspirations of 85 million people to the aspirations of subsets of the 85 million people. One of those subsets is Egyptian women and of course there is no denial of these issues and the fact that people are not feeling safe. The other subsets of that society have to do with the minorities in this society in general but I actually want us to stay at the very top of the 85 million people. The 85 million people in Egypt today do not feel the stability, the freedom, the justice that they looked for when they started the revolution. The current administration in Egypt needs to remind everyone of why the revolution started and start delivering on the promise of that revolution. It is sad that we're starting to talk about French benefits and not the main benefits. That's really where I think we should be talking about what is happening today and what could be. And when we take a look at the performance of the Egyptian government today the fact that today Modi's organization has downgraded Egypt for the second time in a row. The first time happened in February and the second time happened today which aggravates the economic situation of the Egyptian people. The Egyptian people are unfortunately not going to be able to get the money they need to sustain the economy. Now I want and I'm calling as the Arab as the Egyptian American Strategic Alliance I am calling on all Americans who love freedom and want the same values and freedoms that the American people enjoy to be enjoyed by other people around the world and specifically the Egyptian people. And I say that as an American Egyptian who really wants the stability and the security of American interests in the Middle East. A stable and democratic Egypt is the apple of the eye of the Egyptian citizen. And that's really what we need to focus the conversation. It's unfortunate that the current leadership in Egypt have taken the conversation to a very sad state. We're now talking about the fact that Egyptian women are not safe in Egyptian streets. Where forgetting the fact that 85 to 90 million Egyptians are not really enjoying the freedoms that they called for and now we are on the brink of economic collapse security collapse is already in operation and we can call we can blame a lot of people we can blame the opposition we can blame Egyptians outside the outside Egypt we can blame the current administration but the issue is it is a failure of leadership in Egypt today and all leaders in Egypt need to cooperate to save Egypt that is the crux of the issue right now especially for the 85 million Egyptians everybody included it is an issue of leadership today in Egypt that is the crux of the matter they have failed to come together whether it's the opposition or the Morsi administration to really bring solid hopeful optimistic and real change for the Egyptian people now the IMF is going to walk out the door money that is in Egypt is going to walk out the door and people are standing in line and fighting for their life and gas for their cars little on the bread they can't even go to work so I want us to bring that hope back that we all feel so elated we almost cried when that revolution succeeded and we almost cried when President Morsi won the elections today President Morsi unfortunately cannot go back to the Hadir Square because he has destroyed so much political capital that he enjoyed at that moment he cannot go back to the Hadir Square President Morsi needs to do a lot of things in order to be able to go back to that place where people died and say I have committed a number of mistakes and I am here today to correct those mistakes and I will make promises to you to fix those mistakes and I am going to take this country to a level of stability and predictability that will bring back the economy to a much better state that's not going to happen President Morsi is not the ruler President Morsi is not the ruler the ruler is the leadership of the Brotherhood and if you follow the news for the past few days the diplomats, instead of going to Tahideya or go to the Presidential Palace they go to the Brotherhood headquarters the Italian ambassador Khaled Mashal from the Palestinian leadership they don't go to Presidential Palace they go to the headquarters of the Brotherhood and many others I am just excited to example and President Morsi it's really very difficult situation very difficult situation President Morsi is known to be elected a free election even if he leaves now who is going to take that it's becoming really really complicated issue no one would want to step in after so many things got ruined out economic is really bad social life is bad a lot of people have no jobs people are not safe in the street it's a difficult situation so where do we go from here I think even if we say it's the MB who are in control for them to succeed it's very obvious even though the opposition may be actually messing things up for them the problem is this is a situation very much the situation that a CEO who takes a company that needs to turn around has to face the fact that he has to work with top vice presidents in the company and make sure that they are all aligned on the same priorities that he wants to achieve if that doesn't happen we're not going to be able to move forward this is the main issue in Egypt if these leaders come together and say what we are interested in is making sure that this country becomes a better country then we have hope and that's exactly what I want us to achieve what I'm really hoping that the leaders can really turn around and bring hope back in the hearts of Egyptians that is what is at stake today if hope leaves the house which right now I think it is on its way out people will basically walk to the borders today everybody would want to step out of get off this ship because the captain doesn't know what he's doing the captain most of the time doesn't know what he's saying the captain most of the time changes direction every single day now the joke has been let's just wait till the morning maybe he changes his mind we need to fix all those fundamental issues that have to deal with how do I run a country this is not a village in the south of Egypt it is not a village in the south of Egypt it's the largest Arab country in the Middle East and the US government has to really have a very clear policy because right now we based on what I'm reading based on what we're hearing from DC the US government today is not really providing a very clear direction to where they want things to go in Egypt they are happy with how the relationship with Israel today is but with such an unpredictable environment things can blow up in our face one more time in the Middle East and that's really what I'm hoping that the leaders in DC can really send a very clear message to the administration in Egypt because otherwise things are going to really fall apart again, I'm still hopeful I want to give the Egyptian people promise and hope that tomorrow is going to be a better day and I believe Egypt has the leaders to make that happen if they come to the table and say yes, this is a great nation we need to make sure that history will not say we messed things up in the meantime the United States really is caught in the middle of the opposition and the government when the Secretary of State went to Egypt some of the opposition really used to meet with him and that's really, America is really caught in the middle of those kind of two opposing views one thing really I'd like to focus on is really Morsi was elected in free election number one he was really the head of the freedom and justice party which is an extended arm of the Muslim Brotherhood and he supported him and thus he should be loyal to his party like Obama is loyal to the Democrats and Bush was loyal to the Republicans, this is a fact of political life and thus unfortunately the opposition is not giving him the chance and the Muslim Brotherhood the chance to really rule the country for four years and see what will happen definitely after six years of military regime and the Mubarak Nasser and then Sadat and then Mubarak 60 years of that kind of oppression now the Egyptians for the first time really are smelling the fresh air of freedom and then look to the news, read the news paper watch the television for the first time everyone really speaks up his own mind or her own mind that definitely did not happen under Mubarak or under Sadat or under Nasser now definitely they are speaking up for the first time they are excited about the freedom they are definitely opposing the Muslim Brotherhood because they are afraid of them and thus really this is the reason for the chaos I hope the opposition really give the time to the Muslim Brotherhood to really prove themselves if they failed kick them out this is number one number two I hear today and definitely in the past few days the pressure is on the government to do something about the economic condition and then the security as well and I've heard really that they are going to meet and establish a new coalition government from all kind of political parties and I really hope that would lead to a little bit more stability and also the economic development in fact Amru Moussa mentioned that last really have a coalition government to really lead Egypt and then to focus on the economic development and the security and then forget about the parliament election until after the Eid al-Fitr which will be in August I think really the opposition don't have power in the street really the opposition they don't have that many people but they go and demonstrate those are not opposition those are general people people who have no jobs people who cannot feed their children people who stand in long line those are the Egyptian people but they may align themselves with the opposition because they are against why because they are sick of what happened I'm opposing what the government is or in this case is not doing I think that the opposition really does have a large number and it's growing because every day that Morsi doesn't do something or Morsi's cabinet doesn't do something about the economic the social the political whatever situation is a day that the opposition increases in numbers and definitely the opposition would force really I feel like the position of the Muslim Brotherhood or the government really are changing because they are listening they cannot continue like that they are aware of the economic chaos they are aware of the lack of security they are aware of what is happening to women on the street and thus they are forced really to yield to the opposition and I'm really very hopeful again if the message is hope that they will come to their senses hey we have to do something listen but my impression we've been this past nine months things went from bad to worse there is no improvement but don't blame the Muslim Brotherhood Dr. Hamza only the opposition the opposition is not giving them the opportunity to prove themselves the Salafi also have their own demands and also they are missing up things in fact going back to the women issue it is possible it is not the Muslim Brotherhood but the Salafi are really more conservative and definitely like to have women stay home and it is possible some of the representatives are really doing that not the Muslim Brotherhood here's what I think they have had the time to make changes I feel that the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood and the presidency and the administration is in a very reactionary mood they are not taking proactive measures to resolve problems that have existed before they took office let alone after I feel every day is wait we have to hear what Morsi is going to say why doesn't Morsi have something proactive to say why does he have to react to what the opposition is saying he knows who the key stakeholders are he knows that in order to get anything done they have to sit together whether they like each other or not whether they agree or not and they have to sit down and figure out a solution to it and if there is no if he is unable to get people at the table then he has to try again we saw the fiscal cliff in America we saw Obama go out and find Republicans he was looking at rank and file Republicans he wasn't even going just to the key leadership of the Republican party and the Republicans too were agreeing to go and meet with Obama but he didn't stop he didn't just send an email and say hey come on out or put it on TV and say we are going to meet tomorrow at 6 o'clock my house have some tea I am going to sit with you tell me about your issues whether we agree or not I will find a way to make it work and he hasn't showed that proactive nature let us really focus on the meaning of democracy when a party won the election that party by definition political definitions should be in charge what happened what happened to the parliament when it was really forming again the supreme council of the army forces and some of the courts went ahead and dissolved that that parliament which really majority of them were Muslim Brotherhood and definitely this was unfair to them after they won the election and definitely they have the right to react that kind of things although they accepted the dissolution of the parliament who really belongs to them this was not fair and they have to react naturally I think again I want to go back to the whole issue of leadership in Egypt and we are all aware of the circumstances and the conditions of these elections and I think ignoring the circumstances and the conditions and basically saying he won the elections we do know that he won the elections the question is what do you do about this victory the circumstances that the Egyptian people as a whole were put in they were put in between two choices that the average Egyptian citizen if you told him to choose he would not choose either of them and we ended up choosing the least worse of the two choices if I am the one who was chosen in that way right if I am the manager of a company who was chosen I know that half more than 50% of that population is reluctantly voted for me reluctantly right I have a big issue on my hands number one I need to understand what the reluctance was right so that I don't blindly and just brush it away and say I won you know and why doesn't everybody just comply so that philosophy is really why we have a lot of issues today where to authentically address the situation we will say yes the elections yes happen by votes but as a president I was voted in in a situation where obviously people were in a very tough spot this is not the American elections where people saw mid-tromany through more than a year and a half espousing his platform and espousing his his policies and what President Obama wanted to do and again you are basically talking about a long period of time the situation here Egyptians were basically put in a situation where you are either going to go this way or that way and both choices were very tough if I go into office bidding that in mind then my behavior is going to show the fact that I have to work really hard to enroll all this opposition so that we can come to an agreement that we can work together and push the country forward that process unfortunately hasn't happened and most of those dialogues that President Morsi has tried to accomplish and yes people did not cooperate and yes he has really failed to have very substantive authentic conversations now we clearly know that there are big issues that the opposition is focusing on the attorney general the way he was brought into office and the fact that he is very much like my great grandma he has very selective judgment in terms of what to pursue and what not to pursue pursuing the black block and not pursuing other groups that have committed crimes outside the presidential palace the process by which the constitution was drafted there is a lot of opposition and anger in people if I ignore that anger I am not a good leader anyone who understands the psychology of human beings if you force me to do something I am not going to do it thirdly the current government obviously we know that the people are chosen the way people are being recruited today is only based on their allegiance to the Muslim brotherhood that's not going to save a country that is in a turn around situation you give me hope when you bring in the experts when you go to a specialist for a heart surgery is much better than going to someone who is supposed to take care of animals what I need is a doctor that knows how to take care of human hearts right so these are obvious issues and the current administration is really basking in the sun saying I was voted in of course you were voted in I am happy for you but if you cannot run the business the business is not going to be successful I want to pick on this point so that's the issue we need to acknowledge what's going on because without acknowledging them they are bound to blow up in my face somebody has been elected by the people as you said even let's say he got a popular they just assume the and this guy doesn't know how to manage he doesn't know how to rule he always blamed the opposition the opposition won't let me rule what excuse is that I mean you are at the helm you have all the powers and you can't rule I think best thing for him either leave or find another way to elect another president because now we are going from during Mubarak we were much better off than we are now people had jobs now things are going bad and worse or another option respect the democracy and in the vote of the people and give them the chance opposition did not give him the chance he's at the helm he's at the helm who's going to give him he cannot rule while you have the Medana Tahir demonstration all the time they go to his palace because he does things wrong if you keep doing the wrong things you're going to have this reaction if you do the right thing the people voted for him to rule Egypt for four years he and his party we have to respect that the fact that people psychologically did not like the muslim brotherhood because they are fearful of what the muslim brotherhood might do then they go ahead demonstrate in front of his palace and the security and the Baltagueia they really rule in this kind of so really it is us Egyptian people who really does not respect the democracy and in the vote of the people and let the muslim brotherhood their party and the one who elected to be the president for four years let him give him the chance to rule out I don't think that the muslim brotherhood was respected democracy I don't think that they have respected the minorities that have reelected him he was elected he just tried to go back to this point only in the initial round he received only 20% of the vote and so only 20% of Egyptians wanted him into power and like mashef was saying they had to choose between what they feel may be was the lesser of two evils being presented with two options that you're not excited about is not a favorable election but it is the election that they had to pursue many people did not vote entirely I understand that was a very popular thing to do as a means of protesting that vote but he was elected at the end of the day and only by 20% of people that actually really truly wanted him the number which has dwindled down since then to practice democracy is to be respectful of the rest of the 80% and to take those views into consideration and to be to be working with them rather than working above them and you'd have to be present of all the people not only the brotherhood trying to be a president of the brotherhood and that's a big mistake Dr. Hamza I think as our brother said here at the beginning I think he was very popular he got 75% of the Egyptian people the first few months he ruled he was really the man of the people he went to Medanatahari without any protection until the opposition started and gave him hard time to the extent that he really feels helpless which is a point I'd like to respond to you by the way George W. Bush won by how many votes in 2000, 500 votes Florida remember and then definitely American's vote accepted it went even to the court and look to what he did being president you know we took us to the war in Afghanistan and also in Iraq and then the rest is history so by definition democracy 20% voted it is not their mistake but in the final analysis he won democratically and thus for four years from the political party which is a Muslim brotherhood I think we should give him the chance by the end of four years there will be no Egypt I can tell you that if you continue the way it is if you continue the way it is and then because people really are experiencing freedom excited about it do all kind of things what can he do everyone should be blamed about it they did that before mercy they did that once Mubarak left it has nothing to do with Morsi Morsi did not grant people freedom Mubarak leaving granted people freedom people freed themselves when they went out on January 25th 2011 it has nothing to do with Morsi I have to respectfully disagree that Morsi granted people freedom he absolutely did not they earned their freedom by themselves and to say that a single entity or a person was the one that provided the opportunity to speak freely or to do whatever in the streets protest whatever it is that they would like to do that is not because of mercy but the Egyptian people voted for him is that true by virtue of democracy yes he was voted in and accordingly by virtue of democracy if he voted for someone for four years and his political party supported him there is no doubt about it shouldn't we give him the chance sure but we almost impeached Clinton because he had a sex affair and we are letting a president run our entire country to the ground I think that is very much so grounds for impeachment but I personally disagree with that route but I do feel that part of democracy is to remove a leader that you don't feel is speaking for you or working for you I think that you are better off working within the system and working within the government and trying to work with the people I don't think that the opposition leaders are doing the right thing by saying we are not going to meet with the president unless XYZ, A, B, C are all met and you must do this and this you can't meet with people based off of conditions it's not an ultimatum to get Egypt back up and running it's a promise and it's hope that people work together and unite for a common cause I think I agree with you at the beginning differently he was the man of the people he spoke for everyone until the conflict happened and differently do you think it was the constitutional declaration that caused all of that start? I probably started from there and again we really have to know his motive for democracy have the parliament to be the legislative branch and the executive branch and so forth and then speed up the process and then start economic development and security and so forth unfortunately after that he wanted to really speed up the process people misunderstood him and differently you know the rest of the story if you were to advise him how to turn things around what would you say to him you have the right to claim that but in the meantime because of the opposition is really tough and for the first time after 60 years they are excited about their freedom of speaking up and expression of opinion you really have to have this coalition government include all the all the political parties and then have the experts not Muslim brother or others look to the technocrats and really start focus on economic development and security I really disagree with you the Muslim brotherhood supported him he should be really loyal to the Egyptian people it's not the brotherhood anymore the brotherhood helping them through he has a bigger goal a bigger mandate should be loyal to the Egyptian people regardless of the Muslim brotherhood or not Muslim brotherhood I agree with you but again what we are missing is a covenant and then worried about that that any leader from the Muslim brotherhood they have to be loyal to their leadership and this is really what miss things up unfortunately it's any leader from any party I mean it's not that you're loyal I mean define loyalty if you mean to say you'll do whatever the leadership of that party wants you to do that's following blindly I think maybe if I'm understanding correctly you mean to say that you want the Muslim brotherhood leader more to see to follow the values and the goals and the vision of the brotherhood and to apply it in a more broad way for the entire Egyptian population to work for the entire country it's totally fair and it's understandable this member of a certain party was elected for his values and for his vision that's perfectly fair for him to stay in line with the Muslim brotherhood so long as he changes the way that that vision is applicable to an entire nation not just to a party so I think that's where I think if I'm understanding correctly I agree with you and this is really the problem that Morsi is facing now he's caught in the middle of two things working with the president of all the people and then being loyal it's between a rock and a hard place absolutely but he really has to get out of that I mean now he was part of the Muslim brotherhood now he's president of all the Egyptian and I think really you should completely leave the brotherhood on the side, that's the role is finished now he's president of all the Egyptian not only the brotherhood Muslims have a lot of Christians absolutely and he has to really worry about this, he's still president of all these people and he was that really from June until November that's why I'm definitely saying there was that political capital which I think if he capitalized on that we would have been in a totally different situation today and I think still there's another layer of an issue where we still have the old guard fighting the young guard the Muslim brotherhood between the political party that they have set up which is heavily populated by young men and women who are members of the Muslim brotherhood and then you have the guide office which again is the old guard and the old guard in a lot of ways like a lot of other people in Egypt think whatever happened in Tahrir was a gathering of young men and women who had nothing else to do they do not really believe that the revolution is taking place that belief blocks them from understanding and believing what the aspirations of these people are and why young men and women even though they see their brothers and sisters on the street dying they still go down to the streets and die again and there is no shortage of these young men and women so if I have wisdom among these leaders they would realize that the aspirations of millions of young men and women in Egypt are going to break through the door no matter how much you try to keep the door closed that is the crux of the matter for the leadership in Egypt today as it is for many other Arab leaders in the Middle East it's believing and understanding that if you don't facilitate change change will overpower you and you will be drowned by it so I think I agree with you giving prison a more chance probably I am still one of those people who will tell you the chance has been given the boat has many holes in it it's drowning and the question is are we going to be able to patch the holes soon enough before other holes open up it only takes about 15 minutes in a speech that is heart to heart with the Egyptian people that really comes to the table and says in a very transparent manner these are the mistakes that were made tomorrow morning this is what we are doing my own feeling that president morsy is not the ruler the ruler is the leadership of the brotherhood many of the political leadership really go to the brotherhood headquarter before they go to the presidential and that situation has to be fixed and that's part of the problem I agree and it cannot continue really and that's why really he cannot just speak because people don't believe him anymore you have to have actions backed up and then the action really is what is going on negotiating now between the opposition and the leadership of the the head of the former head of the parliament and some others as well and thus the negotiation going on under the scene really behind the scene is to have a new government including the technocrats from all political parties and morsy the leadership and I'm really optimistic that this will happen in the next few weeks another point other than women really is of course we all know that Hamas was partly responsible of open some prison during the revolution and got all the brotherhood out so there's no dispute about that and now morsy worked out some deal between Hamas and Israel and settled all the difference and things are cooled down between Hamas and Israel for now but now I think part of the deal also is to create a piece of Sinai or I don't know it's major or small they're talking about 75 thousand square feet recently the Egyptian government is preparing a project to build a million residential units in Sinai and then some opposition talking about the whole population of this area is 300,000 300,000 people so why do you need a million residential units in Sinai so it looks there is some deal under the table no one has seen it yet so how do you guys feel because this may be a big regional project where Israel and Egypt and the United States and the European Union they're just trying to solve the Palestinian Israeli problem at the expense of the Egyptian land so how do you guys feel is it possible so we can have peace between Israelis and the Palestinians then the Sinai is almost like it's a very low density population very low density so would that be an acceptable solution or how would you feel it would not because again, well we hear these rumors but it was denied right away by the government Sisi also put really denial no one is going to build anything on a board you know the Egyptians are very sensitive and so that was killed simply because of the agreement with Begin in order to get Sinai back even today in Israel President Obama still talked very frankly about having the Palestinians having their own state and the settlement really is continuing the settlement is an obstacle to peace and definitely encouraged them the Israeli to go ahead and take out of those bank and give the Palestinian the right of their own state if there is something going on brother Hamza like what you are talking about maybe he was not really that he would have not been that strong in making the point but really I hear that rumor sometimes back and it was denied completely by the public officials and I really don't think that we should continue making this really as if it is something that could happen because I don't think it will happen Israel in complete opposition of creation of Palestinians they don't want no Palestinians well this is not what Beres said today not the prime minister today Netanyahu mentioned yesterday it just happened today that we are for really two states and this is where we are committed to do that as long as this state is not in the same eye well he did not talk about they didn't talk about location no he definitely talked about really the Wissberg of course and Gaza and probably there might be some trading of land in order really to make the new state viable in terms of transportation communication among its citizens I really I don't like to spend time on that because we are making something really of rumor really to make it as a matter of as an issue to talk about because I don't think this will never happen if I can make it another issue that came out today another issue that came out today the Muslim Brotherhood was a legal organization from the days of Sadat and Masar and even until yesterday it was illegal until yesterday what do you mean by illegal it's not law and order it has no existence it's not a registered organization not that it goes back to history to Masar back in 1954 when they issued a decree by him as the president of Egypt at the time dictator yes but he was the president that the dissolution of the Muslim Brotherhood as a group and this law still stands and now some people are reviving that and issuing a complaint to the court of the highest court saying that this is the case and thus the Muslim Brotherhood does not exist and now it's going on in the court and the court looked into that and is still looking into that this is a new issue from when President Morsi started there has been a police protection for the headquarter of the Muslim Brotherhood so a lot of the opposition what is this it's not a formal organization it's not recognized by state why the police put so much protection on it so only yesterday the Muslim Brotherhood submitted a request to consider the whole community so it's not an organization because the argument now is Abdel Nasser was a dictator and thus his decisions were not really legal or constitutional but in the meantime he was legally the president he was in charge of the constitution and making decisions and that decision was issued and legally institutionally the Muslim Brotherhood does not exist and now it's real in the court now and definitely if it reaches that fine but definitely they have the political party which is well established freedom and justice and I think that's another example yet again of how the conversation has shifted from the revolution of 85 million people to a discussion about this group or that group if you ask an average Egyptian citizen what do you want he will tell you I want freedom I want social justice and I want bread to eat and I want to have a decent chance at living and he's not going to really care that much about the Muslim Brotherhood or any other political party if at the level of his daily life he sees an improvement if President Morsi can elevate the conversation to that strategic goal of a nation then we will be doing the right thing we will be spending our time and effort in the right direction because right now everybody's attention and effort is being wasted on different issues on sidebar conversations while the economy is crumbling our rating outside Egypt is crumbling our scoring on human rights and a lot of other international measures of a democratic state are failing and we're talking about a building that's being protected and people dying in the protection of a building that's how sad it has become but I'm still hopeful that a leader or leaders from among the Egyptian population will come out and take this nation forward that's really where we need to focus because it is in that that there is hope for the Egyptian people and there is stability for Egypt and also for the US government and the US itself as an entity in terms of really making sure that the Middle East is a stable environment for countries like Egypt to thrive and for a country like Israel to live in peace and going back to that topic I believe days will come when we're no longer talking about the Palestinian people or the Israeli people we will be talking about a nation that houses all these people who have their own independent beliefs and religions just like what happened in South Africa I think what's happening right now is just basically everyone is playing for time but the day will come when these walls crumble even this concrete wall that the Israeli government has built will crumble it has crumbled in South Africa even after many, many years that's what's going to happen in that land where many religions were born so it's no longer going to be a Jewish land or a Palestinian land it will be a land where all these people live freely now another issue that I want to bring up a lot of the leaders in Egypt today were imprisoned in their lifetime and when you have such people running the country throughout their life they have seen a lot of tragedies and atrocities that their mind is not necessarily looking and aspiring to give a lot of these Egyptians the kind of life they hope for they feel like if I suffered it's okay that somebody else suffers we want people who are not scarred psychologically to lead the nation and really create a much better hopeful and optimistic future for the Egyptian people there are many Egyptian young men and women who are inventing amazing inventions and they want to see the light of day in this country so they can actually reap these rewards that the whole nation reap these rewards a lot of that is really stifled and stopped right now because we're spending a lot of our time talking about side conversations and the ship is not moving forward that's the key issue that I want to see happen well here for us in the United States I agree with you Egypt is really an important country Egypt is countries that receive the second largest aid from the United States after Israel gets the largest one then Egypt gets the second largest it's all in military aid of course so the American people really have stake on what happened in Egypt how would the United States of course the United States has a lot of influence if they give $1 billion every year $1.2 billion every year to Egypt they definitely have some influence they couldn't be without influence $1 billion buys a lot of influence how would you guys think what role the United States can play in Egypt right now during this revolution well I think the some of the new political leaders in Egypt including the Muslim brothers and also the Salafi said that we can do without the aid and even Shikha al-Azhar one time when that came into discussion he said he appealed to the Egyptians go ahead and really donate and probably in no time if there are many rich Egyptians brother Hamza that really can get the money I don't think really the $1.2 million that goes to military aid it does not go to the Egyptian economy or food or utilities and so forth would really care Egyptian would not care too much about it but if you don't have this $1.2 million going to the military then the military is going to draw money from the general budget of the so it's going to make the situation even worse the military is very rich and they have their military factories and I don't think they can I think that they can do without it the question is really whether the Egyptian people really benefit from this $1.2 million which has been really diverted to the military you don't have that $1.2 million you spend in the military it's going to have to come from somewhere else well if you need it but again I think the military has a lot of money have a lot of residents have a lot of investment have a lot of hotels they don't need the money I would go so far as to say that they don't need money I don't think that the military is a self-sustaining entity or institution I think that they bolster whatever gap they have in their budget with these investments with all these things but I don't think that they're really self-sustaining if they want to achieve a self-sustaining model then by all means go for it because the nation could certainly use some extra money and some revenue and some new ideas on how to make revenue because right now Egypt could be a country that sustains itself without USAID because all that money goes to the military if and only if they collect taxes from their citizens if they collect their personal income taxes the Egyptian revenue will magically increase and will suddenly be not a budgetary issue will be back to a place of self-sustaining governance and not relying on external funding for military budget or whatever it may be they do collect taxes of course but not from the very rich people they're very rich but what just took it from the people that can buy bread they don't pay too much taxes but in the meantime I think the stability that brother Ashraf talked about that is needed badly for the economic development and security and also for the source of income to each national income that really now is lost completely and this is a tourism that really differently in billions we lost the 1.2 we lost that and we have to have stability in order for the flow of income from tourists really to come back and if I may add as I was saying in the beginning the situation in Egypt right now and when you take a look at the government that the government currently and Egypt as a country can really achieve a lot on its own they just need to start helping themselves and doing the right things when I talked at the beginning of our conversation about the American-Egyptian strategic alliance our goal is to really help the American administration really think differently about the Middle East we talk about a paradigm shift in American policy thinking where what we need to really do in the Middle East is stand by the people so that they can change their lives and improve their lives and become advanced nations that live peacefully in the Middle East for the Middle East itself to thrive we want a lot of Americans who love freedom and are friends of Egypt to support organizations such as the American Egyptian strategic alliance because we need the funding and the resources on the ground in DC to really work with our leaders in DC and really shift American policy in the Middle East it is no longer about propping dictators after dictators and really a lot of these countries self destruct what we need to see is countries that are thriving, that are stable that are economically viable and that are living in peace with their neighbors without doing so it's unfortunate the American policy will continue to fail in the Middle East as we have seen it do so so many times in the past few years we need a shift in that policy that is very very honest and transparent and is really focused on helping propping dictators in the Middle East in the United States the policies and the monies is done for the benefit of the United States and the congress and the administration you have to we are here to serve the American people the congress and the president primarily not to serve anybody else but really first you have to serve the American people whatever works for the American people that's what we are going to do so I think it's important it's very important to consider that I want to pick up the point with Dr. Mitvalli who said we can do without so so you are asking that we in the United States cut the hate for you should we cut the hate, the military we don't need it I'm talking about what the Egyptians, the leaders I want your own opinion what does the United States need to do to help whatever investment we do either in Israel or Egypt or anywhere around the world I think as the brother Ashraf mentioned his point is well taken if the Egyptian policy is going to be really successful it has to be to the people not dictators or political party the people themselves have to feel like it is the interest of the United States to help the Egyptian people in total and the fact that when the Secretary of State visited Egypt and some of the political parties including one who run for president Hamdien Sabahi refused to meet with him that tells the Americans a lot that maybe our policy is failing we have not to support any any of the political parties we have to be neutral we have to make money it has to be invested in economic development for all the Egyptian people you have anything to say about that I definitely agree that I wouldn't want to see the Egyptian government go through a self sustaining model with no support from USAID but I would like to see that USAID shuffled in a different manner I don't want to see a blank check written to the military I'd like to see that go into programs that actually benefit the people that are being sent, these $1.2 billion to be what it actually stands for an agency for international development not for military development I'd like to see Egypt to be self supporting I'd like one day to see us not taking money from anybody, it was a grant or loan or anything I'd like them to be able to develop themselves and move forward if we continue to extend our hands, get money from here and there we're going to continue to do that forever I think Egypt is very rich in national resources in human resources and tourism as well the only thing Egypt needs now is honest government stability and security and if these kind of issues really are present I'm really very optimistic that Egypt will not only survive but it will really exercise its leading role in the Middle East I'd like to really I know we're wrapping up I'd like to tag along to what you're saying and we really should call for a richness of hope in Egypt and ask all leaders in Egypt to live up to the expectations of the revolution we're just almost out of time so I'd like to thank all of you very much and the audience and we'll see you next time thank you very much