 Good evening everybody welcome to the planning commission meeting of June 18th. Thank you all so much for coming out I know it's a beautiful night, and it's hard to come indoors and we're not for us being taped I'd say let's go outdoors, but we can't so here we are What we're going to handle first before the mouse great initiative is mr. Juares application for preferred site This is a solar outlet Sure, oh, that's right. You have that's right. I remember I remember This some application was our recess two weeks ago to be brought up again for consideration tonight and here we are Sarah do you want to just briefly go through it? Sure, this was under your ranking from the new town plan He developed a way of ranking preferred sites and there's a Point category where we can do it administratively or it's sent to the board or it's sent back to the applicant for Improvement and so this was one point shy of an administrative issuance of a preferred site So it's I think as it was discussed in the last meeting They haven't done a full visual analysis of it yet as they apply to the state For their approvals and if it had it probably would not be visible It would probably have been found to be not visible at all from the neighbors and would have gained enough points to be done administratively So just I think a quick overview Where we're looking at So you have Roosevelt Highway Creek Farm Road This is Munson flats This is Elm Hill Farm right here and as you come down there's a hill and Before it becomes floodplains in the back here. There's an open section meadow that the I think it's a 500 kilowatt Solar array is proposed. I don't know if you'd like to add anything mr. Juaire or and the neighbors were notified By a mail prior to this meeting in case they had any put as of Right before the meeting staff had not heard from any of the neighbors I do not know if any are present tonight with us Take a motion to approve the well, are there any neighbors or anybody that is there any neighbors you see any of your neighbors here Do you see any of your neighbors? No neighbors, all right any other comments Then can I take a motion to approve the application? Do I hear a second all second all those in favor It's approved. You're all set Mr. Juaire you're you're good to go you're all set. You're more than welcome. Thank you for your patience Yep, so there's a letter for signature for a chair that would go to the public utility commission After-saint meeting and we'll send you a copy as well Thank you Hey now for the feature film Now it's been initiative land conservation option work session Sarah you just go back to the Well, actually you Let's see. What do I pull up just the agenda right now go back to the agenda So we have a few different things that we can pull up here just by way of introduction I think I introduced our intern Mari Gillies From the UVM Rubin scene school joining us he helped with the preparation of the staff notes tonight So staff notes and all this packet material if you go to Colchester vt. Gov down the bottom right hand side Under agendas and minutes the whole playing commission agenda here is Online and it's all linked in and so I'm going to be going over staff notes It's usually on the bottom And just sort of giving you a quick walk through I think on the May 20th and Apologize to the playing commission your TV down below is our operation tonight. We're sorry for the technical difficulties It's a little bit of a text-to-me night. I don't have any great graphics or visuals. We can go to some of the spreadsheets if you want later, but just I think I'll sort of start back at the beginning so May 20th You had a forum took solicit a bunch of different ideas about what we could do for wastewater solutions and one of the Possible solutions that came up was land conservation and there is some questions about what we had done for land conservation in the past Was a ballot item was there's still existing authority To collect money on the tax dollar for conservation so I wanted to provide you with a little bit of background and information as to What we've done in terms of prior land conservation where we're at sort of now So we do not have an act of land acquisition fund Marty helped with some of the research. We went back through some old town minutes And it appears that in fiscal year 88 89 and then 89 90 There was a ballot item on each year asking To have an assessment of one cent per one hundred dollars in real property assessment collected for those specific years Towards land conservation for Lakeshore properties along route 127 That money was collected it was held in a different account and We're not quite sure but I believe it was most probably used in the purchase of Rosetti natural area There are some we couldn't find minutes to substantiate that believes that There was discussion at one point about using it to purchase the old captain mallets Which is on the corner of Bay Road in East Lakeshore Drive on the lakeside. There was a restaurant there for many years I had a few different reiterations So the money was collected. It's no longer there. It's no longer authorized There was discussion in 1994 about reestablishing some sort of land conservation on the East Lakeshore Drive area The village on Malts Bay committee in December of 1994 in its minutes It sort of had a and you've Transfer development rights. I'll use that because I think you're familiar with it But just a little bit about what that is is there's a thought about Incentivizing land conservation as opposed to outright purchase of it of giving the people on the non lakeside Additional development if they would pay to conserve the lakeside The regulations weren't changed that idea did not go any further And so that was served the last reiteration of looking to actively try and conserve these Lakeshore Drive properties Just a little bit about some of the other things I've been done in the community I mentioned about the rosé natural area. We have had land conservation projects in the past that have Used variety of different partners the Lake Champlain land trust was involved with that The cold chest or land trust we do have a cold chest or land trust that was active In past decades that helped with the conservation of properties It's a separate organization from the town and not-for-profit that has seek Basically ceased action and lacks funds So there it still is A few thousand dollars and we're still active as a 501c3 Apologize the air conditioners have just turned on for the first time this summer so they're a little bit loud we can shut them off if People can't hear me, but hopefully That is the last the interference for that one So just a little bit more about what our recent land acquisition has looked like In 2004 we purchased the Bayside hazelip property, which is if you come out Laker Lane There's a leg of that right in front of it. It's really between East Lakeshore Drive and Blakely Road And that was purchased through ballot item in 2004 So the way that we've tended to acquire property in more recent years is to ask for on the ballot and have it funded by the tax dollar The one exception I sort of mentioned was the acquisition of the village park Which was in 2007 Completed with recreation impact fees. So when new development is permitted in the town of Colchester, there's a wreck impact fee The fees were established on new development specifically to increase recreational opportunities for residents and When that was expended that was big chunk of what we had built up in reserves for that so We don't have a conservation fund or funding source at this time There are specific items on ballots or specific purchase with wreck impact fees and we don't have Some other towns for instance, I believe Williston has a conservation fund. We do not have Conservation fund as the town So it's a little bit about the history does anybody have questions about some of the past history or land acquisitions or I can come back to this too. I just sort of rolling through here Yeah Like Sarah said that was Lake Champlain Land Trust I don't know if you remember how much that was about was it like 500,000 or something It was a lot and culture should have put in like 25,000. It was a so Lake Champlain Land Trust did it and then culture should put in a very small amount and and And it was turned over to culture to manage but Sometimes there was confusion over the years thinking that culture should put a whole bunch of money in there and we actually didn't we have Lake Champlain Land Trust to to thank for that so I Would be surprised if that was much of the money from It's Jack Scully that would know I think he said that back from when there was a penny on the tax rate Which he was involved in it was unsluckable at the time. I thought he said to me that they There was a property or two. I think one right near Bayside Park. I think he said to me recently that was purchased You know through that and and something was was Then there was no longer building on it and that's why it's an open piece of land So I don't believe any of that money came all the way through to the time of the Rosetti Purchase I think it was involved in some other things in that time period But before it stopped Happening It's been great. Our town clerk has digitized a lot of her old minutes going back And so you can through that link that I told you before go online and check the minutes yourself However, unfortunately the digitized men's don't go this far back. So Spend some quality time in the downstairs fault We didn't get all the 90s But I think enough to Verify that we can't collect any money There's no active funding source. So wanted to give you a little bit of background But thank you for adding that because I think it's helpful to fill in some of the gaps that the minutes don't So Getting more to I tried to frame this in sort of questions for you of what will land conservation project look like And I sort of throughout that you'd have to define a project scope and purpose So Commission has been tasked with solutions for wastewater pollution Properties with wastewater problems should be a priority for purchase while the land in the previously proposed sewer area 298 parcels could be considered lakeside properties or 126 of them might be a higher priority and have the highest benefit to conserve And could be the initial focus of a conservation project So in terms of trying to like define a scope of what you be looking at for land conservation Just looking at the lakeside properties along West Lakeshore Drive East Lakeshore Drive in Goodsale Point Might be a good place to start and that's less than half of the total parcels in that area So I tried to sort of frame this up of you know Let's just take that as a possible example and run with there There are a variety of different reiterations that you could do for land conservation. You could say everything in the district or Just a couple parcels so different reiterations How could properties with wastewater pollution be identified for conservation in this I tried to flush out a little bit more because I think there was a question of well, could you purchase the ones that were the worst and So I sort of ran through and some of this you already had in your previous packets, but I think it's worse Going through some of this detail again tonight Which is looking at the information that we have on the 298 parcels one of the places that we looked to for data was the 2013 war equality study conducted by the town and That evaluated the soils Sceptic systems what we had for permits distance to surface waters soils ground water assessments And also did some actual going out to the sites We as part of that project and through our consultant asked to go out onto people's sites and evaluate those areas They couldn't visit all of the ones that people replied to And they're also limited to the ones that people were applied to positively We don't have a right to go out onto people's properties unless we're asked or there's visible evidence of a violation So in the good sell point area 13 of the 49 sites were evaluated East Lakeshore Drive Which you have 62 lakeside properties and 94 non lakeside properties 13 of those sites were inspected and over on Lakeshore Drive 14 of the 43 properties were investigated and the findings were that there's overall severe Area and distance to ground water limitations improvements to onsite cyst septic systems And the West Lakeshore Drive area could cost millions of dollars and no good cluster system options were identified by field work for West Lakeshore Drive East Lakeshore Drive. You could possibly do cluster systems on the non lakeside a good sell point There was one potential green area that you could do a cluster system or a community septic but Just to sort of pull back It's improbable to consider a full inventory of existing septic systems We can't legally require or perform inspections on each property and so Owners of properties of the most septic issues are also most likely to challenge that sort of investigation process But what we can tell from the 2013 study is that All these properties are subject to premature failure and not working Effectively at this time. So Unfortunately being able to pinpoint specific properties that are the worst ones to try and purchase is not very probable to do So that's why just looking at well, how do you select some just rang with the lakeside properties potentially? Looking at ways that laying can be conserved and any questions So far in terms of Identifying sites for conservation So it was done in a double blind and that was how we got into people's properties is the consultant had the information They used in their analysis But they retain that information and they didn't provide it to us because if we were provided the information We'd have to take an enforcement measure against them immediately and have them fix the system So there may have been failures, but we're not aware of them and nor can we access that information was They're pros and cons to that We got a lot of good information out of it But if we had asked for the information could be a fix some things Yes, but people then probably would not have lost onto their properties. So pros and cons So, yes Can we talk about the time it's jumping ahead a little bit I'll circle, but that's a good good question So you can take a look at laying conservation in three sort of different buckets if you would one is donation people could donate land For conservation we have had some history of that in town in the past with people Doning their development rights the button farm north of sevens corners that he donated his development rights on that property Consentral purchase so things like there was a park natural area other things that we've acquired Sort of like that in the past have been through people that are willing to sell and then the third way is eminent domain when we need area for roads or Sidewalks or paths We sometimes use eminent domain, which is the town actually Taking a property through a court process there has to be a whole lot of Legal hoops to jump through rightly so to take a person's property Including that you have to have fair and just compensation You have to arrive at that and mutually agreed upon purchase price It often goes through the courts and it has to be for a public good It can't just be because the town wants to there's been a lot of case law and courts on that So that could be a whole nother night of what eminent domain is but for right now I'm just going to sort of breeze through the three different types And one of them is what would a donation policy look like so if we set something up and said that people could donate land to the town as You know families transition people could will us properties What would that look like in terms of liability to the town? We would have to remove existing structures Stabilize the land if you were looking at the Lakeshore Watts There are some places that have seawalls some places that don't depending on what you might have to do to shore up Apropry you could be looking at anywhere from ten to a hundred thousand dollars To stabilize a property and to demolish a property We used an average around twenty five thousand It can vary so much depending on the size of the structure the complexity of the site if you have asbestos or other sort of environmental things that need to be remediated But we just use sort of generalities based upon some of the things that we've seen in recent permits Have come through so If you were to purchase property through donation Take a property through donation We would have probably somewhere between thirty five or over a hundred thousand dollars to just clear it off stabilize it Cap the septic and turn it back more to a natural site Also We would have ongoing liabilities of moaning pruing just pulling garbage off like some of our other natural areas if we did nothing else and You would have lost tax revenue because as properties are conserved they come off the active tax rolls So if you were to conserve every single lakeside property in that area you lose approximately using today's dollars 207 thousand dollars off the grand list Well, and you lose two hundred seven thousand dollars in annual tax revenue to the town So that's the first one for donations Any questions on a donation idea? Okay So consensual purchase we'd purchase properties as people made them available to us We probably would have to pay a fair market value So we looked at the grand list to say well, how much would that cost and It's important to note the grand list is only 91 percent market value So you can't use the grand list and say your your property is this on the grand list Here's a check. I'd like to purchase it. Most people would say no, it's probably worth a little bit more We're continually adjusting it and repraising different areas, so we don't fall below There's a whole separate night that we could dedicate to the CLA and the state in requiring us to reassess But for right now 91% of market value roughly So if you just focus on the lakefront properties on West Lakeshore Drive, those are on 14 Million nine hundred forty nine thousand on East Lakeshore Drive in Goodsell Point. They're twenty three million Three hundred eleven thousand dollars So you'd also have to build in closing costs for real estate transactions they could range from a thousand to two thousand property depending on How many different appraisals you did the types of deeds? You can if you're purchasing properties through a conservation deed Go through a couple different reiterations of real estate evaluations for What the assessment is or what the property is valued at So there are some increased costs potentially with legals beyond that but So you're at either 14 billion for West or East in Goodsell Point 23 Or combined you're at 37 million dollars for purchase eminent domain Not probable the Pam no, oh, I'm sorry Brian listening to Think that you'd have to That the town would have to Put up all of the money of the fair market value of property I know the town staff is very skilled at identifying grants We're going to get there And staff notes hold on We're getting into funding sources So but do you have any questions on the values so far? No, but to paint the picture of buying every property along East and West Lakeshore Drive and Goodsell Point is Kind of misleading when when When it was first proposed how is it misleading back in the night? Well because in reality What would happen last time was as properties came up for sale. They were individually considered and maybe You know a couple per year We come up for sale and be purchased. It's kind of a very slow So you're reading into my staff notes a little bit further ahead. Hold on Hold on to the But big numbers you're throwing out there Yep, everybody have another slice of cake or hang on And it domain. Let's get through the worst part Which is it's not probable that all properties would be voluntarily conserved So let's just run through what eminent domain is Yes So you need voter approval for the funding sources So we'll we'll get to that in a minute but And it domain is not voluntary and The reason why I'm throwing this in is even if a purchase program was in studio over time as properties became available Several properties may never be offered for purchase If you were interested in returning all properties to a natural state and this is just another option And only a few homes remain the value of those homes is going to increase and If your goal is to limit wastewater pollution some of the worst situations could continue to exist and be used and This is where I get a little bit into the rules on July second We're going to talk more about the wastewater rules and what's allowed and what's not allowed But under state wastewater rules all property owners have a right to continue using their homes or businesses even with a failed septic system. I Use the example of 755 East Lakeshore Drive, which was a seasonal residence It was a brown structure on East Lakeshore Drive that came down last year It was condemned by the town as it was falling into the lake The septic was unknown it predated zoning and was likely a cesspool The owner challenged the condemnation through litigation and the new owner Was allowed to through litigation rebuilt on the site with a best-fixed system and possibly go to year-round with Illegally allowed inadequate system So if you're looking for why might you do an eminent domain? You might run into the few of these things and if your goal is to solve the wastewater issue You may have to look to eminent domain Legal means such as condo nation would need to be used to acquire and conserve Properties not willingly offered cost of legal action and then increased cost of homes as they're not factored into the cost At this time, but could substantially increase the price paid for properties will be on the current fair market values So eminent domain as I said is not to be used lightly But I just wanted to offer it tonight as a tool Since you're looking at all the tools in the toolbox Do you know what the sale price was for that Property that was falling apart and was condemned now at the top of my head. You have a rough idea like a hundred thousand two hundred thousand Three hundred thousand. Well, you have the assessed value on that but the sale purchase I Don't know off the top of my head with that sold for There was there may have been more reimbursement than just Transaction price. I'm not sure in terms of legal aid potentially But I was just I was just interested in you know, the town ended up having to go to court and be interesting if there was a fund and Maybe that because the property wasn't in good shape proper some of those properties that are real close to the lake I was just curious what what the market rate is. Do you have on that spreadsheet on that kind of a That's why I was asking so the assessed value is two hundred and forty one thousand is it So we're not sure if that's what it's sold whether it's sold for last or more whatever with that. Okay. Thank you Be helpful if Find out what that was The sale price included in the minutes the sale price Yes I think I was using it as an example Yeah, no isn't it isn't it isn't that what the actual sale price isn't that just a public record. No the sale price I guess if we have it is a public record, but sometimes it will say in consideration of I See what you're saying and so you put that yeah, it would be very interesting using this as an example of Doing the same to other properties. You get to know how much that was as an Actual sale pricing if there's some consideration. We don't know important to note good great points there One minute Bear with me while I see if I can tap into her assessment data. I will use this point to say that Next Tuesday night before this like for me. I think it's at 5 30. We're having somebody that's challenging a Health order on a cesspool too. So in terms of How these things play out and how long they can take to rectify even when there's a visible issue Is interesting Yep, so let's go to ownership it looks like it transacted last this past December and The sale price that they recorded with us was $75,000 But as I said, that's how much we have a recorded price there may have been some legal assistance as well that was not part of The land transaction price All right, thank you going back to Okay So we've been through the three different types of ways that you could acquire properties How could a conservation program be implemented gradually? I think this gets to some of the questions You need to establish a time horizon to purchase and restore properties To realize war quality improvement without a timeline to complete conservation of properties Ways for our problems could increase as additional systems fail and newly lead allowed inadequate systems could be installed What? Best fixes are illegally allowed inadequate systems They don't fully meet the state standards So So you need to establish some sort of a timeline Brian a lot of friends that have them on this point for instance and orders point They're those above-ground ones. I know that they don't meet the the highest standards, but they seem to work fine If I was aware of one that was in failure, we'd have to do something about it But and I think we're going to go into on the July 2nd meeting about the state's regulations and what to best fix Versus a fully conforming system, but just if you have an existing use of the property, the state does not allow us to say Stop the use abandon the property just because the septic system fails It says what's the best type of system that you can have on that property and there are variances for size and setbacks as well as distance sometimes to ground water So at the end of the day, we have these state regulations To ensure that we have the best possible water quality Yet we're allowing some of these systems that don't fully meet those standards and it's understandable because you can't discontinue a use of a property These are grandfathered, but I think you have to look at them as we have standards for reasons and these systems are not meeting those standards So that's the short answer But again, I think we got a lot of questions on state wastewater regulations septic systems and your next being we're going to bring in Some folks from the state and hopefully we can get through a lot of those questions more in depth so timeline so I think we looked at what you could look at for different timelines and You need to have an outer limit, but with legal issues likely in some of your land conservation efforts We just throughout their 50 year time horizon I think it was used in comparable to some larger infrastructure projects life cycles or funding horizon And so let's just use 50 years And if you were to take a look the 126 lakefront properties over a 50-year time horizon What you could purchase and restore each year and average property value of the 126 properties is around 303 thousand dollars And if you purchase two and a half properties a year you could get through the whole 126 over a 50-year time horizon that would be about 759 thousand dollars a year In addition, you'd also have to factor in the demolition site restoration in legal fees You'd be looking at probably another hundred and fifty thousand so Somewhere around nine hundred nine thousand one hundred forty six dollars a year in today's funds You could start to purchase Properties within the area along the lakefront and conserve them and be done with over a 50-year time horizon So that was just The simple math behind it, but if you have contested sales Eminent domain cases increases property values They could also increase the amount of funds that you needed Sure time period to acquire properties the less property values are inflated in cost So if you dial back and looked at a shorter time horizon The money that you need would be more, but you won't have that inflationary factor in the value of properties 126 lakefront properties. Is that East lakes East Lakeshore Drive and West Lakeshore Drive in good? So point. Yep. Okay, so I wonder how many people in this room Think that there are problems with the waste West Lakeshore Drive lakefront properties It's not I just don't run into people that think that when I drive along I don't think that when we did like our walk we were on East Lakeshore Drive. I just want to I just have concerns about Lumping those two together as if they're similar When they I don't see them as that similar I mean it's it's hard to picture a house on West Lakeshore Drive along the lake That is is in the kind of shape of the ones that most people in town would say oh that one on East Lakeshore Drive I wonder I wonder if they have a working septic so just to go back to and This is I think in task four of that 2013 study You can look at the different areas of town and how they were evaluated There were 43 properties, but in the West Lakeshore Drive area 14 of those were investigated So it's actually a pretty high percentage level compared to some of the other areas 43 on the Lakeshore side 43 all together Oh some on the high side where there's lots of land. Yep, and Overall the generality from investigating 14 of those 43 was their severe severe area and distance to groundwater limitations And there are no good cluster systems options identified by field work. Can can you help me understand on that? Luster thing because when they the IWRM says that Put in bold in that chart that to increase development on West Lakeshore Drive a sewer would be necessary and It there's those are there's a lot of land on that on the non-lake side Just a quick answer to I'm having trouble if I'm picturing things like The the large property that's the campground or even the other ones and how far back they go I'm just having trouble understanding because it's not similar to East Lakeshore Drive How is it that there's that West Lakeshore Drive is a That there's not a way for for those landowners with large pieces of property to put in their own community septic for example even So we're going to talk a little bit more on July second about what community septic is and what some of the limitations are with community septic and regular septic I think for the purpose of tonight's Conversation with land acquisition and conservation. I think it's just in terms of answering your question is We're using some of this data from 2013 that went out and evaluated these sites And found that there were Area in distance to ground water limitations overall within the area. There are a couple larger parcels within that area That are not fully developed The campsite is mostly developed So again, you have to when you're looking at Wastewater take a look at undisturbed natural soils. You can't take a look at There's something on it and you can remove it and then use it for wastewater So we can get into more of that on July second, but just for the sake of tonight and rolling along to West Lakeshore Drive. I believe was only 14 million out of The larger purchase price so as I said, there are a variety of different ways to look at Rhetorations of how you could carve up for the purpose of how we analyzed it tonight for you guys Just as a starting point. It's 126 properties along the lake within the area Brian Again the same comment, I think it's unrealistic to focus on the cost of buying every property along the lakeshore buying the entire Nice and functioning neighborhood of Goodsell point that's nobody is Is advocating for that that I know of Goodsell point is actually the worst for wastewater out of the lot of them Excuse me. Goodsell point is the worst for wastewater out of the lot of them is the highest of the high risk areas Could possibly have a community septic system. There could be a community septic system on On lone pine campground, which I think is very no that was not looked that was not the area That was identified. So again, I think we could get into the debating about what areas are high risk and how Um, they should be looked at but going along with the playing commission's charge to look at the whole area Um, I think is how we looked at their 298 properties, I think it would be It would be 79 million dollars to conserve the 298 properties In This sewer service area that was proposed that you've been charged to look at for alternatives We did not we did not go there because that is a way over the top number We looked at the 126 number just as a starting point. There are different ways of reiterating this. I'd like to Try and get through the possible funding sources for conservation because I think that's a little more positive. No um, and I think we're getting pulled into Questioning what's a high risk and what's not a high risk? That's not germane to Conservation well, I think we're just I think it's just hard to hear I'm I'm somebody that was opposed to the sewer But I would never be in favor of taking all the properties along the lake on east or west lakes or drive I I when the town put that on their website in the in the in the information about the sewer I felt that it was It was um, like selling fear like if we don't do this, we'll have to condemn all those properties And there was this huge million figure and so it's it's just to me that that isn't a a good Decision to start with thinking that we would take all the properties. There's there's houses there that that You know, I just that's was just I think that's the same thing Brian's having and I think I if we can just acknowledge that that Even That I don't know anybody that would think that was a good idea Maybe you guys would think it's a good idea, but it seems like a horrible idea to me to take all To to consider purchasing all the all the lakefront property and the inner bank What we're trying to do is this is an option. It was presented to for consideration Okay, and so and so in our best analytical approach We're trying to put some numbers to it start to put our arms Brian you can shake your head, but we're trying to put some numbers to this and put our arms around it So we can kind of grasp what we don't know We don't know what even the beginning of the acquisition of one problem was let's all 298 or 126 and I love the idea of purchase of Of where Sarah's going and considering what would we need to do a town to have a conservation fund Which we're behind a lot of towns on so I really love it And it's just hard to hear and put out in as if we're going to purchase them all Because it's such a great idea to consider and there might be small ways to do it And that's all it's just it just sounds like we'd have to buy the So there's there's a lot of Layers to this onion and we are starting as you said at a very gross level to start to get our arms around it Because it was an option. We said that we would consider the options that came out of may 20th This is one of them. Okay, and this is the one that we thought it's a great thing to consider Statistical data on that we can start getting a grasp of what that meant some of this other stuff regulations Yeah, no, I'm still Really support everything that you're doing and what Sarah's doing. It's only the piece about as if we're going to buy all the properties That's really hard. Well, I think that's part of the reason why is and this is part of the packet information It's up on our Website and Marty is also helping. I don't know how many people have used We try to use this place speak website to try and engage the public more I don't think many people are using it. So we're hopefully going to be switching website formats around again and gain this information a little bit better of a place to use But This is this is a workshop These numbers are out there on the website if you wanted to take a swag at Just the slingshot drive properties or good sell point or some of them or all of them As I said, there are many different ways that this whole could be carved up But we want with the more information is better than less information Um, so it's there for you guys to choose from and to sort that's really hard to read at that level um, but it's all there and um, just Um, you know a good conversation started to have the information to work with Ryan one one then we've got to move on to questions. I'll ask a quick question I counted um That's something like 26 vacant properties were those included in the 126 Yep And so some of those are interesting. So the way that we do condos Is sometimes the land underneath it comes up as like a zero east lake shore drive So depending on how a condo is structured and some of those older camps have been condoized So people own the camps but not the land underneath and it's all shared um And then some of them are just people have like a different like right-of-way or something Over on the lake side. That's a small little spit of land. That's not really buildable So it's a little bit of a mixture. We didn't want to pull apart the different ones. We just Through all the lakeshore properties in That's every parcel I'm just wondering if you're looking at the 62 east lake shore Lake side if it's actually reduced to the number of single family owners might be considerably less than 62 We're just trying to pair the number now So the 62 that was in the IWRM where like develop parcels, I believe not these remnant parcels or condos or have you So a good good point um Funding sources Brian did you have one more and so we can flip along here? Yes Yeah, I'd like to clarify what the option we're considering is it was my understanding That the option under consideration was to bring back the Funding source to purchase properties as they came up for sale the same way we did in the 90s Seemed to work fine. We purchased one property and then for some reason it got cancelled But I thought that was the option that we were considering to go forward to purchase One or two properties a year as they came up for sale. That's what we should be costing out Whereas here We are considering we're costing out the option of buying every property on the lake shore So we're costing out something different than the option that was was proposed So just um, there are no options at this point playing commission has been charged with evaluating different ideas and concepts and getting them to The select board that would be for the select board to consider. I think the idea was just laying conservation in general And so we've tried to offer some generalities because as I said, there are three different ways that you could acquire properties Here are some of the costs associated with it It's not necessarily Define and approve a land conservation Program, it's just what could this look like? How much could it cost? Is it possible? And so That's I apologize. I didn't mean to scare anybody with numbers tonight um, I think we just wanted to Present the numbers for as much as we could and let you guys discuss What some different reiterations might want to look like Rita do you have a question before I go to find say that I I think the what I understand is We were looking at we were looking at This option so we're looking at three different options. This is one of them the way I understand it If we're looking at a 50 year span That's a hundred million dollars or something But the reality is that every year it would be recommended that we purchase two properties At about a hundred thousand dollars That's the way I that's the way I broke it up is That buying a couple properties a year you could get to the full 126 so it's not Yeah, right But she said just different options different ways of looking at it on different pros and cons but Possible funding sources and marty is very helpful with researching What are some of the possible granting sources some of the partners that we've used in the past? A lot of things that we haven't bought on the bond We've definitely I think you've heard some great testimonials to some of the work of our partners in the past that we've conserved land with And so there are active organizations you have in your packets About known sources, but I think some of the things is Most of these organizations don't go it alone. I think rosetti was a great partnership There are different partners in it. They look to partner up with different people So you can't necessarily just select one of those Off the list and say we're going to go back to that year after year For the purchase of properties and they're going to solely fund it. There aren't those sorts of grant opportunities out there But there is the ability to partner with different people funding very substantially Depending on the organization and what's used for I think there are some that were more for conservation purpose and there are some that were More for water quality and more specific environmental Issues so if you tapped one or two of these Funding sources for one or two of the parcels You could start to leverage some of these properties together You need to however at the end of the day have a way to match So the town would have to give money even on rosetti We had to find some sources of funds to contribute towards that land conservation effort We can't rely fully upon outside organizations or the kindness of others Um, so I went through well, what way does the town get its funding? There are two ways that we get our funding which is either through fees for service Which are things like building permits dog licenses and the like or through the grand list and property taxes And so I did throw out there that the conservation of properties could not be a fee for service It's nothing that we could leverage as part of a building permit So you'd have to look at the property taxes As a source of funding similarly to what they did in the early 90s late 80s This would increase Your property taxes well, you're also conserving properties and taking them off the grand list and increasing the tax burden on All the people remaining on the grand list. So it would be a little of a double whammy Where you'd have to be increasing taxes to conserve land and that act would also increase taxes as well So if you remove all 126 properties from the grand list Um, at this time, it would be 207 $1,000 that you lose in property taxes Sorry your name for the records 126 properties No, it's a total grand list A total grand list Was around 37 million dollars So it's less than 1% So West Lakeshore Drive was 14,949 50 and Good sell point was and East Lakeshore Drive was 23 million 311 9 925 On the entire grand list So the those those 126 properties contribute $207,000 a year in property taxes For the town yeah I off the top of my head So the effect is that you lose $207,000 coming in property taxes That's actual property taxes that we use to Keep the lights on in this building police cars. What have you so that's $207,000 in lost revenue So the question becomes like I think what you're driving to is what would the offset be in the What is that as a percentage of the total ground of the total property taxes paid per year? I love my slivered binder at home and I was going to bring it to you as we just did the Let's let's see what we can find Tax dollars, but there's a lot of building going on in Colchester and Colchester has a huge The largest land massages to them counting. So I mean the building's not stopping I mean you're not even considering that when you in your numbers That that's the whole another dimension What your tax base would be decreased or probably be increased It's about 1% a year that we grow on the grand list And that's also You have to take into account worth operationally our costs increase. So The grand list increases every year but our costs to provide services also increase. So there are a variety of different factors But I think we wanted to provide values tonight of just what would mean in terms of cost to purchase Costs of lost revenue So again not looking to Go into Our budget currently budgets can increase or decrease over years to in terms of what percentage that is but just in terms of What that would be for lost Revenue all right Not easily available on the website. Oh note to sell note to sell Okay, we're redoing our website too. So this has been a lighting process But No, no, you're misinterpreting So it's not the grand list is of the taxes Is over 10 million at this point. It's over 10 million at this point. It's Well, hold on. Nope. I don't want to Hold on I'm getting into our assessors and I love the uh, bobs abstract at home Assessment records Grand list hold on So the grand list, okay, I can give you grand list Yeah, I don't want the grand list. I want the budget No, it's more than that Yes, our website is undergoing a redesign process. Um, we agree that this information could be better Served on the website my apologies, but we are working on a better website at this point Yep, I could download the grand list, but that's not the tax rate Do we approve a bunch of it? Hold on it's kind of funny that we all voted That's kind of memorable like what what's that figure? Town meeting and budget ballot items Getting there 20 fy20 budget So if you combine operating budget and capital fund We're not stopping net of non-propery increase Combined operating capital funding Estimated tax rate for fy20 was a town meeting point five four And that was an increase the seven tenths of one cent Well, in increase The capital budget here was 11 million dollars. Yep. It's 11 million 700 44 forget the operating. It's probably closer to 20 million. So it's 207,000 Nope, the combined operating budget and capital funding is 11 million Well, it's seven into 11 million You've got the calculator somebody does Which is not your fingers once again, and we're looking at the figure if you Take away all those properties, which I don't know anybody proposing right after that point But you know what I'm saying And that would be and that would take how many years to get 50 years to get to So we're we're looking 50 years out in this figure where we're just talking You know what? Maybe somebody sells a property that is worth a lot and we had some conservation fund money and gosh, we'd have a view 40-foot house. Yeah, but the funds had been maintained in the late 80s early 90s. That would be something Um 1.8. Thank you. Okay, right 50 years out I mean 50 years, right? It's well in taking a look at Grand list goes up and goes down Taxes go up or go down. This is again right now 7,000 if we do 50 the the purchases are all and which is the 50 Nobody take that 1.8 percent in the 50th a year. It's Nobody will notice. Yeah, but it would take a long time to get there All right, so moving on to So yep, we had just surveyed through funding And we're coming back to character the area Because that was one of the things on your spreadsheet that you identified as wanting to Look at as to how would these things impact the character of the area? And so I think what I tried to lay out was a balanced look at things which is when you conserve land and neighborhood There are positive impacts such as the adjacent properties or lake views that was mentioned Opened up in green areas created There could be some negative impacts for the residences and businesses the area As long-term families and we do have some families of our Long own property long term. Maybe you look to transition and move You move away from some of that summer seasonal character the area Properties could be redeveloped back into a passive park that could be a draw for tourists in the community Have or a lack of parking in the mays could prove problematic and considering the area as a destination Residents might not want a higher influx of tourists or possible increases in traffic That was one of the things that we heard also at the forum People were concerned with any increase in traffic or people coming in and out of the area A relocation of long-term residents and a lack of seasonal influx would also have a Lasting impact on the community. So there are some pros and cons With how it could impact the character of the area And then also one of the sort of checkboxes that you have is how would it impact bar quality And if a strategic plan was to purchase conserve and restore properties with waste bar pollution concerns Fully implemented. It could have the highest impact on water quality of the three Um solutions under conservation buildings parking in other impervious areas could be restored Um remove the septic systems Abandoned them decreasing storm or runoff as well as waste bar pollution Conserve lands could be used for revegetation with natural land cover and plantings improving the shoreline environmentally So It would overhaul most likely have a very good impact on water quality So This was just looking through You developed a matrix with some general categories of how to evaluate the different options And again, I think we talked Pam. There are different ways to slice the onion It's you could do a variety of different ways. We could have done 50 hundred different reiterations, but just for the sake of Starting someplace throwing out numbers Um, just wanted to start to give you some data to mull over and Looking at those checkboxes again in terms of water quality cost timeline and happy to answer questions or take questions and Commission go ahead serena. Yeah, so I had asked before how many gallons if we know how many gallons Bay every day like what that figure is because I'm No, but the area right now as it was looked at produces about 90,000 gallons a day of wastewater Yes, that's right. I that survey showed eight percent of the E. Coli in the lake was human origin Right, so you're going to have an for E. Coli you're going to have an eight percent of that Right, but they were really severe areas, you know that if you look at the map that the study did they Oh, yes, they identified Really very severe areas in right and this East make sure because of point and West like sure were I think west They sure was surprising to me was almost the most severe one of the most severe So areas the water quality testing map is up on the town's website And I think it's actually linked now off the main page again something that we're looking to better link in with tinyurl.com backslash coal sister mbi So we'll have a better link to that as well, but those maps and those tests are available on our website Those are just three different ways of acquiring property Um, again, I think you guys were given the land conservation is a viable alternative how much would it cost Or some of the different ways and not necessarily that you have to select one of the options Just these are all different possible tools to Accomplishing a land conservation program Again, that would be one of the tax revenues As opposed to a fee for service You're welcome. Um, I think that there is kind of a Maybe a mismatch here where there's a conservation option that isn't so much directed at water quality. It's more about Enhancing the scenic beauty of the lake and kind of beautifying the lake shore drive And that would like kind of be what happened in the 90s where they just took a couple properties Like trimmed a couple here and there Whereas our focus is more on water quality And so for water quality we would have to address all the all the high-risk properties And we want to get rid of them as soon as possible in order to improve water quality And so that's why our numbers seem a lot different than yours because we're not I don't think we're talking about the same thing We're talking about getting rid of all the properties that way. There's no more wastewater Going untreated into the lake Whereas a conservation tax Right, but these are the only these are the high-risk ones About the hill right, but those were classified as lower medium, right? Yeah So I don't think that this was not an evaluation of a conservation tax For the purpose of trimming one or two properties here and making lake shore drive better over time This was we evaluated The possibility of getting the water quality As high as possible in the shortest amount of time And so that's why some of the numbers are really startling and they don't really seem maybe feasible But there's no this this model assumes That every property is in that high-risk category it has to go No, it doesn't Nope, it doesn't Because again, there are 298 parcels within the area and we only looked 126 And it was just as it said it could have carved them up a variety of different ways but again looking at for Water quality purposes. We took the lakefront ones alone There are different ways that you could do it. You could have just done it for good sell point east lake shore drive lakeside It's interesting and going back through what was some of the town slot processes in the past And looking through some of the minutes and the battle lines that are past It was the 127 corridor And it was lake shore property the 127 corridor is pretty huge. It's all of heineberg prim west lake shore drive I think it may have been east lake shore drive at that point so coming up Blakely So it was the ballot items were very generalized So again different thought processes over the years it would have been nice if that had been continued annually We'd be in a different perspective And again those properties probably would have cost a lot less to purchase at that time, but You know, I really I think we were trying to just provide information for the sake of Coming up with ideas. We didn't mean to startle anybody with numbers. We didn't mean to Turn anybody off to it. If anything, I think it sort of looks at those early efforts of the 80s and 90s and Sort of validates those some of those things that were attempted at that time If I had been put in place you could have had something much better, but using today's numbers It is difficult. I think we tried to come up with a Two and a half per year over a time frame that you could accomplish it But any other things that we didn't provide you that you would like to seem for information It's a bit much to weed through too. So maybe it could be reiterated in a different way That would be a ballot item like a year so the slack board works to set our budget and Ballot items you can't have the select board Move forward the through the warning and hearing process to put things on the ballot You can have petitioners put things on the ballot too. So there are a couple of different ways of doing that locally But it would be something that would have to go to a town-wide vote Let's flip a coin over there Marilyn or Brian, whichever wants to go first Brian to comment on the funding Sarah mentioned working with partners And getting grand monies that would have to be matched In the conservation projects that I've worked on in the past I've worked with the Lake Champlain land trust. I was on the board and the director for a while Generally the local match is With high priority projects that have to do with Public access or water quality generally the match is around 20 percent sometimes 10 percent Other funding options we could reconsider Transferral development rights. I think that's still a tool In the toolbox it's mentioned in the town plan. It's not hasn't been used But I believe it's still mentioned in the town plan at least it was in the last one We suggested that it stay in the town plan. I haven't read it yet but that creates a Really great incentive for land owners on the lake shore To transfer the development rights to non-lake shore Parsons or parsons that have better septic Capacity especially if you're looking for increased density on On properties that do have good septic capacity The local options tax That's another way of funding this that could that could raise all of the money for the local match So this all could be funded in its entirety By using just a small portion of the local options tax Um from on housing and conservation fund. Um, that's again one of the partners that that uh Sarah was referring to And another option is a conservation tax Penny for parks and penny for open space I couldn't be wrong, but I believe we're the only town in chitin county that doesn't have a conservation fund So just doing that so any one of those options Would reduce our cost to zero For all of us even if we look at the big picture great Thank you You know, we actually don't have to come up with funding We actually all we need to say is that this is the best physical option to take Send it to the slack board and they can argue it out how to pay for We don't actually have to come up with any funding We can say go all sewers again and figure out how to pay for them or Take everything down and figure out how to pay for our charge Was not to figure out how to pay for that's correct. Correct. So just so you know, all right results of this whole Deal may not have anything to do with funding. Yeah, we may just say this is our best option how to fix What we think is a problem, but I just think all the funding options should be noted. Absolutely So you have So Yeah One is you you said that They they probably look at this as a public health Go up to under two funding source memo And that that probably they probably wouldn't be really Willing to fund it, but can you show that list of all the different funding? sources Yeah, and I'm sure that brine has like a lot more experience than I do in terms of coming up with Land trust partnerships and stuff. I just went through I think it was 15 Throughout the state of Vermont and also some like national ones And just based on perusing their website looking at their mission statement Identifying past project that they've worked on. I'm sorry. This is small But it looked like a lot of them weren't interested in purchasing already Developed land like for example Rosetti natural area was purchased because it was a natural area And they wanted to preserve it as opposed to purchasing Some rundown camps on East Lakes are drive like I don't think that many of the organizations would be interested in that per se There were several organizations, especially the EPA and the Vermont Department of Environmental conservation that would be Probably willing to work with us to a greater degree than perhaps like for example Um the Vermont river conservancy or the trust for public land is that the trust for public land is there? Yeah, that's a good. That's a great list of potential grant sources, but I just like to If you could include on that list things like transfer of development rights local options tax and a conservation tax and these were just funding sources for like granting organizations There are also different funding types as rich said in terms of like taxes or things like that I think we just wanted to provide a positive Well, here are some other possible partners that we use with outside of the property tax or Regulatory Environment to help but suggestions for different funding mechanisms like I suggested before into the select board Um possibly I think what we're looking at is I think as rich said We're not to necessarily identify a funding source But identify a preferred solution So do I get that correct? We've been charged with a select board do a pretty specific area And what's the best fix right? They didn't ask us how to pay for We they that's just not going to be what we do. We're not a finance committee We're looking at what's the best idea to fix the problem. They must ask you how much is it going to cost because that's what It's part of the it's part of the what we'll look at probably to make a decision What we think is the best way to go But we don't have to tell the select board doesn't even have to listen to us as far as how to find the thing It's up to them to determine the mechanism on how they how they want to get that That'll be your argument across the goal. Yeah, we'll get to the slight word. You can actually go to them and yeah bang it out with them I'm sorry You're saying best fix. That's what you're charged with the best fix Problem is the water quality Not seeing beauty or anything That's a sign effect. It'd be nice to say the whole package That's what statement is Yep, I would assume it's in the shortest amount of time Would that be a correct assumption? I think the I think as was stated is your task from the select board is to identify solutions for wastewater pollution There's not necessarily a time horizon amount or what have you but it's to quickly evaluate what the different options are And provide them with that analysis. So again, you might have three or four different options And going back to that matrix it sort of gives you the option that you can go through I don't know if you want to pull up the matrix that we had coming out of the 20th is just to sort of elaborate what's How you sort of fill in these different boxes And here's the options that you have so far on the table that might increase But that's what you're working with right now and just be able to provide a statement under each in terms of Also what potential funding sources are you don't need to be exhaustive in that but I think you heard some tonight There's some grant organizations. There are taxes or what have you Under regulatory incentives, but I think we tried to go through in our staff notes effect on character of the neighborhood effect on property values and taxes And wire quality. So this was again, you're working draft of how you wanted to evaluate these options You said it's an estimated implementation timeline Oh, great perfect mark. Did you have a comment? Well I mean not to disagree with rich, but I think we have to consider feasibility if at the end of this We say the best option is to tear down Um 126 houses and it's going to cost 70 million dollars and it's completely unfeasible I agree with that accomplished very much. No, and I agree with that That would be definitely one of my decisions, you know, we'll look at feasibility But what I'm saying is we're not going to say how to do it But we can suggest that but the select board's still going to do what they do We're not even we're not we've even separated favorable option. We should have some idea as to whether it's feasible And I agree that that will be our decision I'm sure because that you're already thinking about that now So when your time comes and we all make a decision that'll be part of our process I mean, it's pretty narrow-minded took me a while even to get here. We're not even looking at storm water runoff We're looking at straight up wastewater for a selected area best fix It's hard to stay focused because there's a lot of puzzle pieces to the whole thing and I understand that July 2nd July 2nd, I'm sorry, but we'll hear about that rules and rights on July 2nd So come back. We'll have we'll try and have some ice cream that night as opposed to just the cake. We're going to have It's uh, we're working with uh, monoski natural nrcd natural resource conservation district in the state of romont have funding They're going to be bringing what they call septic social to us on that and so We've been joking that we're going to have brownies and lemonade Um And we're going to get into some of those more specifics on septic. So yes There's a lot to get through in a very short period time during the summer As you can see, there's a lot of information different reiterations Scott, did you have a comment? I just had a question about um, you know to say that on the ballot that we voted on in march Yes, I said the numbers were six to eight percent 8.5 So say um, if you buy every piece of property on the lake that's for sale and clean it up How what percentage of that eight percentage is a good fix has anyone Came up with the numbers are going to magically reduce that number to zero so We don't know that's the thing is we taking a look at the whole areas being a high risk and I think what we're saying is the only way that you could get that to zero is maybe with the 298 Um And the second part of the question especially when we're addressing water At the last one, it's still it's still boggles my mind. We're talking about water quality, but they're still a drip they're still talking about Developing the Bayside Hazel property, which is a natural sand plain It's just like it especially is right across from the thing when Burlington just barely on Arbor Day put in 1200 trees and the first thing out of there When they said it's like especially there's being that close to the lake you should be Planting stuff. Well come back in August. We're looking at that as a community septic site We don't have our August dates lined up yet, but we will be discussing that as community septic site on our August meetings Right. It's good to see a list of the options that are being considered That came from the last meeting may 20th. Yeah, there are a lot of comments at the last meeting about the Hanging our hat on the testing that we've done in the past and that many parts of town Lakeshore have not been tested and my suggestion at that meeting was that we Just take a year off and do a year of comprehensive water quality testing over our entire lakeshore from the Wanooski River to the Luwano River all 30 miles of lakeshore That could be funded with the local options tax and I'd like to see that as as an option. We said Sarah that there could be more options I would like to see that as an option to be To consider the cost of benefits up well to be clear The task that we've been given is the planning commission We've been given a timeline to wrap this portion out Without recommendations and that could be one of them. Yes, but as By September, right? So we're time certain We don't have a year to collect more data to roll into any further now We've got till September, but if you're saying another option for the select board to extend No, I'm not saying analysis. I'm not saying to do the testing before september. I'm saying no, I understand Just take another year shows and same as the do nothing option Take another year Is any water testing done in the winter? Do they only do There is anyone going out and actually Drilling a hole in every Monday Why don't the guy from states here at the he's at the parks? I see him every Only Monday Wednesday morning, but now when the lake's frozen No, not when the lake's frozen Right equal I needs certain conditions to grow and When the water reaches 32 degrees and no, it's not growing You wouldn't get any useful information out of that Can I just clarify something because I think this has been brought up before My understanding is that 2013 study that four-year study Looked at all the water All the different water sources In mallet's bed. It did. It did. It did Okay, so that that's where I think I mean, I I'm thinking it did so that's why we're targeting this area because this area was Targeted as the most severe. No, it didn't test mallet's creek. It didn't test porous point. It didn't I think it is though, right? Did you point? I thought it did when I read it. I thought it did So town does um testing on both Days the inner and outer bay my two days a week For 90 days out of the year during the warm months, but this was a study. This was a four year And it built upon previous testing that was done by the state of vermont the state of vermont and determining what areas of the Lake and speeders are impaired has done testing as well And so there are areas that we knew that were impaired for equal eye, which required further testing There are areas that were not impaired for equal eye that did not require additional further testing um, so This is there's a whole lot of work done by a variety of others over the years that has been built upon And I notice we're having some speakers Yes from the state. I mean, I'm wondering if they could address that I mean because it seems like That's an area that really needs to be so I think you could have I think as rich said you could go down few different shoots on this in terms of storm water and Water quality testing for storm water, which is different than for wastewater And so we're not going to have speakers in about water quality testing mostly for storm water Just for wastewater and I think we're going to talk about wastewater solutions But going back and re-examining a lot of this data is something that we do not have time for this summer We're using existing data sources as best as possible We are bringing in outside speakers and sources to try and help wade through the data that we have in the possible solutions But again, we don't have the time the budget Or um, I guess the lack of constraints ability To go out and create new data sources at this point I'm just saying that it's already been done and for some reason I'm feeling you don't think it's been done And you're we're saying I think that it has been done. We have that data now And I'm just trying to clarify that right I think we could spend a lot more time tonight going through the different data sources and what people Have read into them or not read into them but I think to try and keep focused on I think in terms of staff Solution tonight we in conservation Um We're going to have other work sessions on different things But is there any additional information that you need to be able to evaluate the land conservation option? Tonight or that you'd like to see brought to you in the future to better evaluate land conservation um, or do you Let's The company's getting late the computer wants to shut down. Let's not do that. Um Um What what additional data do you need or do you feel like you've covered some of the ground on land conservation? well, is there data on if I say one system completely failed and dumped into the lake What that would affect the water quality not It's going to depend so much on the site with Burlington It's actually easier in some ways. It's better to calculate because they have a straight pipe that goes out Depending on what your failure is how deep is that system in the ground? What sort of soils are you dealing with? What's the travel time of that water to the lake or additional water body? Um, are you dealing with dry conditions? Are you dealing with wet conditions where anything that's serviced up in the lawn is sheet flowing across the lawn? And over the road into the lake. Is there a catch basin nearby? so that's why in terms of I think I tried to summarize in the staff notes that getting specific information On which are the worst parcels is very improbable And to do that sort of additional data that I think we'd all love to have where we went on every single site And tested every single system. We're just not going to have people won't allow us onto their sites to do it And without that Um, we'll never have a complete inventory. I I know but You know, what would the effect be of 20 gallons of wastewater? That spilled into the bay and again, that's going to depend on well Time of the year is it is it during the winter if it's during the winter equal? I can't grow So it's probably going to be a scientific question It is and there are so many variables with that server process And I think that's why just to speak honestly in terms of people Well thinking people even people with scientific backgrounds trying to grasp about percentages and gallonage There's so many different variables and so many different ways of looking at this It becomes very hard to wrap your head around and you can't get to a concrete of If one system in particular location Had a failure How many equal I does that create? There's no Methodology that we can deploy unless you were to factor in all the variables in terms of was it during a 60 degree day Was it dry conditions? What were the soil conditions? Um, and that gets into there probably as many variables with that as there are with the land conservation Best I can do is your staff person is give you the numbers And let you sort through what we have And maybe probabilities So now as opposed to the answers just you know, if we do this the probability Looks like it would be this Yep, and I think it's great that you guys are trying to wrap your heads around this and sort through I think you're asking a lot of the questions I heard from the May 20th forum um I I appreciate the Discussion I appreciate the questions. I know that we all care about the water quality and it comes back to what he was saying We're talking about water quality um In the end any of these things are a lot of money And we really want to be sure that we're going to make a difference in water quality which is why The it is a really important question what's been raised around what water quality testing we've done What can we do to make sure whatever we do is going to make Some kind of a difference, especially when the E. Coli testing was showing that less than 10 was from human sources And we're not actually looking at the 90 percent. We're only looking at the like less than 10 So we've really got to to do everything we can To make sure whatever we decide is going to help the lake because We actually all even if we have different opinions on things. We hope really want that to happen I think that's where the uh northern lakesharing plain tactical basin program Just a few years ago after the IWRMP Said that a colchester was going to consider something like a sewer It should actually do more water quality testing first Because to narrow things down more Which we really like some of the water quality testing was where the streams are coming out Well, that is really important because the runoff is A huge issue which is why you know such a small percentage is the human But we are looking at this human piece. So those data points that are where the streams are coming in We need data points in front of the camps That we're actually talking about and could we this summer start like could we get 10 data points? Like how many data points actually in front of the camps and not at the streams? You guys can look you know look at that report and see what that was. Did we have like one data point? Do you know? Like so if we can't go on the properties We're trying to deal with what we can and our hands are sort of tied Well, what can we do? and and I really think We need better information and it has been said that we should have that and What would it cost to do that starting right away compared to the cost of whatever choices? Any of us in town can you know, whatever you come up with or the select board or whatever we do? It's just such a teeny piece As we've all pointed out winter's long here summer short and you know cost could we What would what would it take to really test some of the water from those camps? None of us really know what we're going to find out You know, it isn't like I know we're going to find out or some of those different panos like we just We don't really know we don't have a lot of data of data points and we're in summer and we have a real Opportunity here. We could maybe know a lot by the end of the summer just like that water quality testing shows You know, we've learned so much about storm water and now we know Oh, it's the rain events that increase the E. Coli and our storm water person That you know like tells us that and that's what closes Bayside beach and and that's really our It isn't the only thing we care about but it's the indicator for Most of the town that doesn't follow things and try to figure about as closely as you guys and we know that if only If less contemporary coli is is from human sources that no matter what we do to help here Statistically it shouldn't even change the closings of Bayside beach once because we're not addressing the 90 percent and and that's you know, that's what's You know, it shouldn't be the only care about but it's the it's the big indicator You know that that we all have and so one I really encourage Thinking of there's some kind of something we could do for that and you'd all feel a lot better at the end Saying oh, I got a little more info and okay, maybe do this or that it's really interesting how Sarah pointed out that this question about You know, everybody knows the less development by the lake the better that is for water quality And you know, we've got a history of wonderful family camps and they used to be summer camps And then they became year-round and you know now we have this really difficult questions of how do we do? But I lost my turn because I was thinking about I was thinking about those camps. Well, basically it's a difficult question that we have as a town and so back to what What you're considering tonight. It's interesting that Sarah said this could have that have the best impact On improving water quality. I thought that was a really interesting statement she made because oh, there's actually um There's less developmental on the lake shore And we don't have things like, you know, we we don't have any septics that might not be working right and So one of the things maybe to keep consider is if Put it Some of these properties that don't cost so much because they haven't been able to be fixed up or whatever if if we come up Town purchase of properties. I would encourage you not to consider eminent domain In what you're considering if the town needs to do that for some reason because it's going that direction I do that as a different thing. That's a particular piece of property that I might have to do But what you guys are considering I think considering eminent domain would Um What I've heard jacks gully explain about the the one The penny on the tax and how that went for a few years that there was a property owner or two along the lake That didn't understand that was just Or that was just for properties that came up for sale and somehow thought it was going to turn into that their property would be Taking like an eminent domain. So that kind of fear was what and I believe from what I've heard There were some people that were involved in town parks. We're like, let's stop that So I would encourage you when you're considering these not to go that way that it can be misinterpreted And property owners can think oh, are they going to like take away my property? um, that it's it's really the um, we We don't have a good record as Sarah did such a good job and and our helper here Appointing up. We don't have a good a good record in town of having money for conserving properties And most towns in the county do so there might be some way like I love what serita had asked the same question I had maybe there's a way because now we have the local option tax And we know we have to vote for doing something on that, you know, there's a tax we already have Maybe there's a small piece of that that could be you could look into is there a way to put it aside in a conservation fund And we could maybe vote on that and start putting some money in the conservation fund And now because that's something cold sister's not had in other towns in shitting county do And oh maybe that and and say, okay, so we're ready for when some properties come up And yes, it would have been better in the asin was short-sighted of us as a town But we don't want to look at this 50 year timeline in 50 years saying, oh, I didn't we like Consider how that was going to impact water quality And when we went on that walk on East Lakes for a drive I know that none of us can know which ones are failing And I know that we all really want to know like how do we solve the failing ones, but Maybe some of these like Limited purchase when people are selling them and the ones that aren't so expensive because they're not pumping to the other side And they can't sell for as much You know, like maybe this could really Help in the water quality On the water quality issues and And that's what we're looking at and at the same time The residents of the town also benefit because look at the risk reaction when those 40 foot houses started going up And we all got What that area could look like Um, so one of the things you might want to I just occurs to me You might want to have a Problem there about character of the town of the town because Oh, it's actually never a character. Great. You do have it because because you put a sewer in somewhere and you increase your You know, you're increasing your development potential and that's what happens all over the country No matter what a good job you guys do trying to control it. It's just how it works And you see it all around the country versus something smaller like this Um, it could have a positive impact for the taxpayers of the town Because it's all beautiful Thanks, Marilyn. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. I've got one question Did we I don't know sure what is your name? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Carol Woods. Thanks Carol. Thank you, Carol. Um, thank you I'm just wondering too. I mean the state has low interest loans for people with failed systems I think it's three percent their system has to be failed And unfortunately, there's some funding where they can't qualify for regular funding sources But there is that fund. Yes I'm not sure of the particulars There's a link to it from our planning and zoning website. So if you go to culturestervt.gov and planning and zoning There's a link to the state's program There are some caveats. I think it has to be owner occupied and there is some income sensitivity But yes, there is a program out there for people I think it's a three percent interest over 20 years to replace their septic systems So that's one of the great things about administering the state program locally is we do try and work with people And make them aware of that. There's also a new one from cht. Champlain housing trust So we do try and point people in the right direction for funding And make them aware of it. We have handouts too, but again, you have to qualify for it And it doesn't fit everybody's needs, but they are good programs Can you find out how much it costs and she said that we test Twice a week, I guess for 90 days Can you find out what that costs because if we were to use that as an option of looking to have them test for next year This one all we're paying now Yep, we're looking at price checking how to get things done. Let's just start Okay Great Anybody Brian you getting the last word? Oh It is Yep on I think when I was looking for the grand list, I think I saw it just So that'll show What errors haven't been tested basically as we consider Doing more testing and getting more info As an option So if you go on to the main site, there's a banner and under services choose water quality in the maps right there How many sites are tested along East Lakes or drive? Uh one two three Um, I can't right now, but um, they're All along East Lakes or drive it goes from Bayside beach to Cricket Creek and they're the three stream outlets Cricket Creek Unnamed stream in Smith Creek, which are the three outlets or outfalls that are tested So how many how many testings are we getting? that aren't creeks along East Lakes or drive So we're what we're talking about, you know, like where we're looking at is there is there Accepting coming into lay. This is just specifically for beach closures Um, and I encourage you guys to go onto the website and look But there's the along East Lakes or drive. There's Cricket Creek unnamed stream camp one And Smith Creek and then Bayside Beach, but that's West Lakes or drive beach. That's the only public beach that we're doing the streams That's my that's my point where and so And we know that the readings go up from from rain events So what we're looking to understand is septic overflow like somebody asked how what would that look like? How would it change the water thing? So we really need ones in front of the very areas that we're Saying are a problem and we're considering spending millions of dollars to Figure out how to dress So hence would be good to have Some additional depth Look at that number Sarah does the uh site the website show the exact point where testing is being done It's a map with Is it being done up the creek or it's at the mouth at the mouth that would potentially be showing Because if we can later on determine that coming down the stream is not the issue Then putting a test rate at the edge would be getting any Potentially pull out coming from houses right next to the creeks. It was still I would still say it wouldn't be It's a very important place to test and it's really great that we're testing there I'm just saying about what we are specifically looking at That would this that that wouldn't be as good a place to test As where you're just looking at what's coming from Overland from your houses because that's what you guys are talking about you're talking about human waste E. Coli only along east lakes or a drive. You're not Looking I probably your point And and that is If you could prove that there was nothing coming down the creek on that particular event So you probably need a testing in the creek at the same time as the testing at the mouth So you can have the same at the same date But since we're not doing that we still it's still It wouldn't be clear Given what we've learned over the years about Right about runoff and that's not what you guys are looking at I appreciate all the towns doing the runoff Testing every week is just E. Coli doesn't identify the source Correct, that's correct. I don't know whether it's farm runoff or whatever so we don't know But we could still but Yeah, I think the the percentage of the samples that even had human E. Coli was only what was it like Six or eight percent or something sarah of all the samples when they looked at them It was a very small percentage that had any human E. Coli of even all the samples So now that we've veered completely awful conservation and we've gotten into DNA and testing sites Which is not the intent of tonight's meeting, but thank you for the input anyway Many more on land conservation I think questions I've heard is you want it cost of additional testing Doesn't need to cost so we're spending now. Yep So we can add that to the to the list But this is thank you very much for coming on this beautiful Summer night and you can see how complex this is and this is just one Piece of a very big puzzle july 2nd. We're talking about rules and regulations We're working on that And then as sarah mentioned that later in august as more pieces come together will be the community septic But again july 2nd and july 30th is another meeting Stay tuned for that, but july 2nd a lot of the rules and rights will come out Maybe we'll have Amy come back and talk about some of the In our august dates are not set yet But we're looking to do more specific information about what community septic solutions could look like for colchester So that we're going to be hot and heavy through this summer. So come back I just would like to say I appreciate all of you guys going to all of those meetings In such a short summer with that beautiful link Duly noted. Thank you, maryland Thank you All righty. Oh and next time july 2nd. We're at the high school Cafeteria, and we will have av and overhead. So we'll have sound and we'll have images. I promise this time Bring your friends Yeah, yeah Thank you everyone Um, thank you scott brian carol everybody There's a job Would you do me a huge favor because you're taller than I am would you turn off the power switch next to it then? Yes Thanks, brian. Thank you It's a problem with writing things for the first time of the year, right? Oh, jeez Yeah, I'm Motion for minutes of june 4th, please I am making motion to approve the minutes of june 4th. Is there any discussion on the minutes? All good All's in favor Thank you Come back july 2nd for more fun Did you call the party? Sceptic social And just very quickly, um, I know nick has uh work Tonight and was not going to be here and are they are both, um, nick and bob excused or I'll need to decide for the minutes, but you don't need to Yes, I guess so I know it's late guys, but I would like to um, I think the um survey was in the packet information portion, right sarah Yes, it was so I'd love to let you all go, but I'm not gonna because I want to talk about if anybody has thoughts about the, um Survey summary that's been so nicely compiled for us my Staff was it maria sarah martin. Thank you, martin perform that the survey stuff together It's uh, um, it's on this thing. Yeah You want to pull it up? Okay, sorry Yeah, I thought it was good Didn't hold any punches. Yeah, no I was really surprised. I felt like between the disconnect between I thought the found it a really good job of providing data lots of data and The the four things that It said was they felt like There was a weak role in public discussion and debate. There was a lack of comprehensive and explicit cost benefit I mean, I thought the town did a great job These were just the survey takers within the comments that we received But I mean we have to like look at this if that's some of the and the feedback The future they were concerned about the future of lakeshore drive neighborhoods a lack of understanding about state wastewater rags And balancing a fairness like who's responsible. I mean we've heard that a lot of people You know that who are Having the failed systems should be responsible. So it seems like there was a like some correlation between I think what we're hearing but It's just interesting to me that they felt that the town did a weak role in public Discussion they I don't know what it was. Those were just some of the comments again We didn't rank any of them. We just these were the trends these were the trends that she picked up in the I'm not like finding fault with the town. I'm just interested above the perceptions of people you know, I think this came more from The town vote not what we've done after that. I think it was this all kind of responding to how the town presented Prior to the vote, right? So I took this And I think part of the town does admit that they didn't do a good job I'm trying to figure out what they could have done differently. How is I I think they can got more information out And they could have actually responded to some of the other Publicity they were getting that wasn't totally true. Yeah, they could respond Challenge these and they chose not to respond. Yeah, I think that's what a lot of people are kind of Responding to that. There wasn't a stance a strong stance from the town Yeah, I think As far as the cost benefit goes The town kind of picked up the fire district to project and was kind of forced to shut a little long And so a lot of people like Jack Scully, especially was like, why don't you look at this? A lot of people rally behind that and the town didn't really have the time or resources to do what we're doing right now Which is a comprehensive look and so that was something that people talked about a lot Is why didn't we look at conservation or why didn't we look at community septic? And they just weren't things that the town had the time or space to do No, I think it's really important information I mean again, I thought it was done really well, but a lot of people impressed me Also, I think in for Brian and defensive Brian, he was tasked with this and at a very High level of fire district two as you recall realized that they could not go forward with this project any farther than the town picked it up And and Brian I think had a rather compressed time and to to present what I thought was a lot of really good information Whether or not I got the political supporter will behind it from from other parties And so from my take on these on the analysis that that mary put together the six points I think one the town's weak role in public Discussion and debate in the last one the balancing of fairness and responsibility I see that Is more a critique for the select board to deal with when we finally pass this over the ones in between I think are ones that we can drill down and be aware of as we do our process And try to be cognizant that that these are the The comments that came from the previous effort and if we can get better getting Doing the cost-benefit analysis Clarity and these other points. Hopefully we'll get Get a better result We'll get closer to get creating a package that Will work Is any of this stuff we should add to our matrix I didn't see anything to do Martin No, but I think the fact that there is a matrix is probably a huge benefit in terms of the the cost benefit analysis That wasn't done last time having like even just showing the people tonight that there is a matrix and that A lot of options are being considered on a lot of different points is Probably a big step up from where we were last year That they only had the one to look at and that was that it was a binary kind of decision as opposed to that We are we're listening and taking in information so I think number six will remain a challenge to the fairness of funding It it's a it's a huge challenge because it's also your perception of governance and what is good government And what is the public good and and how do we participate as in a democracy and good government and infrastructure? And and as Marilyn said the quality of the water which we we all are interested in but how do we get there from here But I think one of the things too is I think you're proposing possible solutions to the slack board but in choosing one of the funding sources or one of the options that is ultimately going to be borne by them versus Being too concerned with it yourselves. I think it's very good to be aware of it Um, and also when you're proposing different funding sources, but um, some of these are bigger challenges ahead I think you have enough to chew through this summer Um, but yeah, those are some good challenges So just just to circle it back a little bit and I know our audience has left us but um I just like to have thoughts on i'm concerned about paralysis by analysis as the saying goes and And I don't know I do not know I think it's a request to the slack board if they would authorize I remember that there was a ceiling on on the effort that brian could put forward and For him to work on the the town ballot option sewer option. I think it was I think I won't quote it, but there was a So another year of collecting data and the cost and all that that's a slack board question And that's for them to decide. I don't how did you all feel about? Setting that out of is another option for another year to Another option. It's not another option. We'll send it up to them I think we have the data. That's what I don't understand. I feel like that report has the data in it, so I don't know Disconnect, I mean you couldn't come out with the outcome and recommendation they did for sewer without Having at least the best data they could I mean there's always, you know insufficient data And you're making these decisions, but that I'm curious as to that To 13 report that that's a huge Well, I think part of it's the day 2013 This consider might be considered dated by some So some folks feel we need more data points, right? More exhaustive testing want to drill down on more specificity on where these failures are And I don't know if we can that's more of an amy question perhaps And I don't know if we can get there from here and I don't even know if another year would necessarily Satisfy that question We had a six to eight percent all the time It was brought in every single meeting we talked about six to eight percent Why are we spending so much money for six to eight percent without it? But again, I think you have to realize and this is where it gets harder to wrap your head around it Is ecoi varies depending on the travel times of the water the temperature of the water How dispersed is within the water you have wave action and wind But the fact that's there to begin with And I think this was brought up before How much ecoi human born ecoi is too much And it was stated I think as part of Some of the presentations over the winter that any amount is too much So again, you could drill down a little bit harder. It would depend on well This is more of a wet year than a dry year We're having a little bit cooler spring now warmer spring You would have to look at this over a multi-year period if you were going to do it in a scientifically ballad way And again What different results would you have it doesn't change the fact that you have a high risk area For wastewater failures You have a bunch of things that probably should never have been built Located in close proximity to the lake with aging systems It's a risk analysis You can do the risk analysis without collecting additional data and say that yes, it's a high risk area And there are different ways of solving it And the best of an alternatives analysis You would have data every which way to sunday And you'd be dissecting every which way to sunday you'd be dissecting of well So you'd be looking at a solution for just some of the sewer service area those most high risk sites or a portion here or there Combining different factors again Your charge was to look at the entirety of the sewer service area And what are the ways for our solutions? It's not going to give you that sort of reiterative analysis. So true alternatives analysis is um so You're starting from a low of a disadvantage standpoint because you don't have the time the funding or the resources To go back through and do a multi-year study and do that sort of reiterative analysis Um, you're doing the best that you can with the data the time that you have so I'll recognize that right off the bat and say that it would be great to have more data over more years You can't get to september And just deliver to the select board. We need more data And ultimately I suppose if they wanted to punt and go down that row that's that's their call I think it's worthwhile noting. Yeah In your findings The questions that you've raised and the concerns that you have because it does seem to be an achilles heel in terms of Um, you know acknowledging that's a high ticking time bomb. I like that analogy Rebecca that you know, let's let's Get down to the bit. It's a ticking time bomb It's taking out all that all the data and all the other But it does seem to be the achilles heel that people keep circling back to some numbers that just It may not feel the day, but it could feel tomorrow it could feel five years down the road, but There's potential and each one of them is at high risk All right Have you guys too long? Thank you. Thank you for indulging me. Thank you, Zach for everything. Best of luck in the travel Yes, I need a motion from somebody. We don't have the emotion man here I make a motion to adjourn. Thank you, Rebecca. I will second Thank you. That's always a favor. Hi. You're adjourned No, thank you. Sorry to keep you so late. Thank you