 It's a very weak clap. That was a weak? Wow. What in the world? I'm getting insults. Weak clap. Hello. Hey, how are you doing? Why are you laughing already? Claude, I'm tired. I'm just even saying that I need some type of coffee or something, but yeah, that's probably what I'm laughing already. But yes, yes, I'm good. Did you say how are you? I did, yeah. I'm good. Yes, how are you? I'm good, I'm good. Yeah, we're back. We're back, we're back, we're back. It seems like people enjoyed the episode we did, the previous one we did. So I've come back again with some more for you. Oh, really? Yes, yes, yes. So I think this should be a thing that whenever we do these types of episodes, do a little icebreaker, and then we get into the episode. Especially because this one today is, I want to say it's heavy. It's not heavy. It's not heavy. Deep, but not heavy. Meaningful. Meaningful. Authentic. That's the words. Authentic. Wonderful. OK, yes. What do you mean authentic, actually? All our conversations are authentic. I don't think about, you know, you're taking advantage of the fact that I haven't had coffee today. What do you read? I guess I mean that we are peeling back a little bit around how things actually work, because so we both come on relatively happy, good, mean-attacked people, but that can mask a lot of how difficult things can be. Yeah, that's very true. I like that, yeah. And I agree. OK, so before we get to the how difficult things can be, I've come to embarrass you again. You know what? I'm not, I'm not on it. I'm not on it. And in fact, I have some questions for you today. We're warm. So, quick, quick fire round, quick fire round. These are easy. Well, I'll start easy anyway. Wow. Get to know you a little bit more, because I think people know me because they've heard me on episodes, but we don't know the women behind the scenes. OK. So easy question for you. Would you call yourself an early bird or a night owl? Why are you doing this? OK. Currently a night owl. OK. What's the favorite city that you visited? Oh, Cape Town was, yeah, was lovely. Yeah. How many wires did King Henry VIII have? Eight. It's six. What was the last movie or series that you watched? Oh, what have I watched? Oh, The Crown. It's back. Is it? Yeah, it came back. Oh, gosh, I don't know when this episode is going, but yeah, it's back. So, yeah, I'm enjoying that. I watched the spin-off thing. That was, that was actually really good, but not the main thing. If you went on a holiday, a beach or a city type holiday? I need a beach holiday, but I always find myself in the city, but a beach holiday is what I require. Thank you. What is the brightest star in the sky? The sun. Is that a star? It is a star. It is, yeah. No, it's called Cyrus, actually. What is the sun? What's your favorite season of the year? Bright and the sun. I say autumn because of the, autumn, winter because of the fashion. OK, Timo. I don't know how you really... What book are you currently reading? I'm reading a devotion, actually. Can you read a... It's called... What is it called? Wake Up or something? It's by Jackie Hill Perry. OK. Yes, please, thank you. It is Upon Waking. Upon Waking, yes. Thank you. Last question. Go into trivia for the final one. OK. What is the biggest island in the world? What is this? Island. Alex, help me. And the biggest island in the world. I'm sorry. Claude... You haven't even said one yet. Let's go. You know, islands are hard because some countries, you think they're countries but they're islands. That's why I'm confused. You haven't answered the question. I reject it. You told me. Here's Kavine thens. What the... I would never have said... You know what, there's many I wouldn't... I don't think I would have said anything. I didn't... But you really took me. That's a surprise. What's going on? That was good though, well done. Thank you. Woo, it feels a bit when you're the one... Oh, it's not fun, is it? Yeah, it's not fun. But yes, you've woken me up though. That was like my old coffee fix. Thank you. You're welcome. Cool. Where do we go from here? So, do you know what? This actually is the highlight. This is how our working relationship is. This is literally it. I've said this a few times that every single day at the time I speak to Claude, he surprises me in some way with either if it's like a new idea, a new way of working, or a pop quiz, you know? And I've really enjoyed that about you. Yeah, it's... I don't know if a lot of people get to experience that or even in your day to day because, you know, especially with like board roles and all of that, there's like a specific standard that you have to give so you might not be able to always show every element of you, but on this podcast build and this podcast, it's been really amazing to experience that. Obviously, it's also sometimes sugaring because I'm like, Lord, my whole way of working or living is like all over the place. But yeah, yeah, I've enjoyed that. I'm glad and I do enjoy being able to, I guess, show more of my personality because sometimes I just have to be serious and about like the things that I do, some of them require that serious, more forward to the side of me where you can't be myself entirely. So it's nice to be able to do that here. Good, yeah. I think I'm trying to think back to the first time I actually spoke to you or met you. I don't think I met you in person. I think it was virtually. But I'm trying to think, did I actually feel like you were just this really serious guy? I don't know if I felt that way or... Yeah, I think I'm now realising that it's a 50-50 split. It literally depends on at what point in the day you catch me or what I'm doing at that time. So my sister, because I thought I came across as serious to most people, but literally earlier this week, my big sister was saying that I have boy next door energy apparently. Boy next, what does that even mean? I was just like, I've never heard of that before. No, no, explain what a boy next door is. So she was like, yeah, you come across as like, I guess like on a type of likable, type of approachable type of thing. But then I'm also just like, I don't know if that's true all the time. But then your sister, who is your twin? Oh, no, it's my oldest sister. Anyway, Claude has a twin. Yeah, I have a twin. Do you know when I found this out maybe a few months ago? Oh, really? Yeah. I was like, hold on, you have not mentioned or... Anyway. But yeah, so it wasn't your twin. This is my oldest sister. I just want everybody to know because now I know. Okay, yeah, I think maybe because she has that familiarity with you that she can say that. But I also see it as... I say, yeah, I see it as well. Yeah, I see it as well. But I guess like you said, if most people are seeing you in like the business function, I know a lot of people say, oh, I'm in groups with Claude. Like, oh, I know him in that remit, but they don't know you. Outside. I think even within us, even us too, do we really know each other outside? Not really, not really. I don't think so. We obviously spend a lot of time talking about the podcast and building Dream Nation, but I just, I don't feel like we... Yeah, it's not like a... Yeah, that's quite interesting. Just realizing that. But still, I'm receiving that. But yeah, I think today we're talking a lot about ourselves and that's because we are going to be continuing to talk about ourselves, our journey, creating this podcast and also just building like a authentic work relationship that is... Yeah, meaningful. Wow, the words are coming back. There was actually, when you said both of those, there were things out in my mind as well, so... Yeah, I took them from you because you said them earlier on. Okay. What were your first impressions of me? Oh, as a... Because remember the first time I met you, I was under a guest on one of your podcasts. Oh, yeah, one on... Prejudice, yes. Okay, so maybe not then, because I was, at that time of the podcast, I was very quiet. You were very quiet. I wouldn't even say anything. And now I'll be like... So yeah, my first impression was you was very quiet. And then you followed up with me about something and then I think that's when I first noticed that there's a lot of drive there and you was obviously quite capable and quite able and you thought about what you were doing quite deeply. And then that then evolved into you jumping on the Dream Nation team prematurely, I guess, during lockdown and we're trying to do a few things. And the way you handled that was excellent, which is although that project never got released, everything that you did was great. And even the people that you reached out to, a lot of them came back to me and said, I wish I had to hold on to her because she's really good at what she does. And then when it came to me launching this podcast, I was like, you're the person that I need and you've been outstanding. Sometimes a bit stern. You don't take a lot of my nonsense. And but what you are great at is because I tend to be quite big picture and thinking about the future, you're amazing at bringing us right here, right now, that we need this episode done this week and you need to do these lines the way that it's been written down, otherwise it's not going to come across the right way. So I like that you're passionate about what you do, but you also know you're good at it and you've got enough confidence to be able to even push back on me when you think that this is the right way to go. Thank you. Yeah, I'm going on to the stern comment. I appreciate everything that you said. And yeah, I think it also goes into the environment that you're in, that I think I said this before, that allows you to be that way to actually, you know, that your your boss is like, I want to hear your opinions. And and if I if I don't agree with them, still share like, you know, I think not a lot of people have that working environment to allow that to happen. But the sternness, you know what, that also is in that because I think it takes a lot like you're it takes a lot to say to somebody. Your idea is crap. Yeah, I would never say that. You say it in nicer ways, but I hear what you're saying to me like, yeah, we're not doing that. Yeah, no, but you surprised me with this idea because it was actually you, you brought up that, you know, we should talk about our podcast, the podcast and how we created it. Initially, I was just like, that's boring. But then I'm not I'm not boring because what we have been doing is been like straightforward. But because I'm like, do people really want to know? But then you shaped it and you were like, yeah, but it's about, you know, the dynamics and how we've worked through things and stuff like that. And I was like, oh, OK. So, you know, you've you've also figured me out and how to. Oh, yeah, we're out of that. It's needed. It's needed. But yeah, I I think I don't say as a I guess, I mean, I don't know if every like as a business woman or as a woman. Yeah, it sometimes can feel a bit bad to say to someone like, oh, no, what you're doing is wrong and have to be so stern about it because you don't want for me, I don't want to hurt your feelings. Not that, you know, you'll be hurt by them, but just in general, like you don't want to hurt the past feelings. And also you're like, hold on, like, why am I so bold and confident that this is wrong? Like, where does this come from? And I think within myself, I'm still trying to figure that out. Like, I know you say that, you know, you're quite confident with the decisions you make. And in that moment, I think I am. But sometimes I'm like, where does this confidence even come from? Because this world of podcasting and it's still very fresh and new to all of us, and, yeah. So I'm still trying to figure it out myself. So it didn't great. Thank you. Thank you. So what type of what type of decisions have we made then, actually, that we've had to go through the back and forth and forth? There was one that I had to make before you actually came on board. OK, this was December last year. And it was also going to even do this in the first place, in all honesty, because I knew I wanted to do a podcast. I knew there was a lot of potential behind it, but I also knew that I could not do this by myself. And you wasn't here at that point. I didn't I didn't know that you was going to come on board. I didn't know if I could afford you. So but I made the commitment to the studio that we work at, which is Dream Factory, what we're doing now. They are amazing. I made that commitment. I put the money down, paid the deposit. You have to pay the whole year in advance. That's a hefty amount. It's not a small amount of money. And I did that with like no plan of how to deliver. And that was quite difficult to do. Then I think a couple of months later, that's when you came on board. And then we had, I think, our first difficult conversation, which would be around your your compensation. Oh, we're going there. You're going to go there. Oh, wow. Yeah, that was. Do you know what? Before Dream Nation or before working on the podcast, I have spoken to Claude about how to compensate myself before. I said, you know, I've got these different opportunities. And I'm like, I don't know what I should do and I'm struggling. And it was, yeah. And you gave me some really great idea advice on how how I how to pitch myself, basically. And I don't even know if we were sharing this advice. Maybe you should share it again. But do you want to share? Well, firstly, I think if I remember correctly, or it will probably be the same advice I give to most freelancers, which is stop, stop packaging your value based on your time. So we have this nature or kind of tendency to be like my hourly rate is going to be X, Y and Z. And then I'll then charge people accordingly. Whereas on the other end of it, the person receiving that rarely cares in terms of how long it takes you to do anything. So if you can accomplish the same task in an hour that will take you to 10 hours, I don't. That's that's irrelevant to me. All I care about is the end result. So rather than thinking about how long it takes you to do because you can learn to do things faster, instead think how valuable is the other person. And then if you instead charge based on the value that you provide to that person, then you're more than likely to be able to get a much better deal for yourself and make negotiations a lot easier. Yes. And that is still hard. But yes. So then when it came to Dream Nation and you're like, OK, so how much would you charge? And Claude always does this thing. And even people that reach out to me about working with Claude and they're like, oh, how much would he go for? I'm like, you pitch what you think your value is. And if Claude can do it, I'm looking. If Claude can do it, he would do it. But you pitch yourself. Don't think, OK, because of who somebody is or what is actually your value to that person and then go from there because otherwise sometimes you can underpitch yourself or you're overdoing it. And you're like, you're just greedy. We had that recently. So even with this amazing advice, when you then asked me that question, I was like, I think that's that thing with freelancers that you could do things for free. You're like, I could do it for free. But I have to get to that point in my life where I'm actually building myself, building a business. And also when you feel like you're being paid for the work that you do, you also feel valued. So I went back and forth. I think I wasn't straight. I wasn't like, oh, yeah, this is about straight away. And then I finally I even gave you a range. I couldn't even give, you know, and I finally told you. But I was like. And also I was aware that if this was like another production for like a bigger company, I may have also been like, actually, this would be have to be my full time job. So I would pitch at this amount. But knowing what I could actually give as I already have a job and this is the amount of time that I could give to this podcast. This is what I would say. So I was realistic as well. I could I could have pitched myself at some crazy amount, but it's ridiculous. Anyway, but yeah, I gave it to you and what did you do? The thing is with your one in particular, I'd already put a number in my head of this is how much I want to be able to pay you. And you're that fell within the veins that you said. So I was like, yeah, fine. Like we just took it from there and let's move forward. I feel like one thing that I was clear with you on though is that even when I'm paying you now, if I'm being honest with you, the value that you provided is definitely below that amount. But it is the most I can do as of today. But with our journey as hopefully when we become even more successful, then we'll be able to continue to increase that because for those that are thinking about working with Abyssal in the future, that's not going to be an option because my goal is to take a full time for my company because there's a lot more to do. She knows this as well. And I tell people like, you know, you can enjoy it for today. But yeah, but yeah, that's the goal. And I think your willingness to see the vision of where it is. I was trying to go still hold your ground in terms of what was important to you and making that clear to me. So I knew kind of where your boundaries were in terms of like from a price and perspective, but then also the willingness to to grow with me on this project that I think that made all the difference. And that's part of the reason why like could other people that I spoke to and they might have felt more as this is just a job to them. Like it's just an opportunity. It's just a way to make a bit of money worse for you. It's like you've generally bought into the vision. So I was happy to make that sacrifice and yeah, make it a consistent part for I guess your income now. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I definitely bought into it. Thank you for listening to these episodes. If you haven't already, make sure you sign up to our mailing list at dreamnation.co forward slash mailing list. And from there, you'll be able to find out about all the things that we have coming for you. But on money still, there was the other decision that we had to make, which was the levels to to our studio membership here. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So I'm going to I'm going to take I'm going to take this one. So Dream Factory is absolutely amazing because they have two studio spaces. But in each studio space, the one that we're in right now, there's multiple rooms and it's just a lot. And the one that we were in before is a bit smaller, but it's equally amazing. But we we had an opportunity to view the one we're in now. And when we saw it, we were like, damn. Yeah. It's the first one is the first one is it's great. That's where the first week episode. Yeah, you can see some. So the episode that is coming out next week. This is the season episode you'll see it in. And yeah, Courtney and Renee, I don't know if there are any others that are out that have not yet, but yeah. So those episodes you'll see and you'll see it's it's it's wonderful. But we had a vision and we wanted a space. And you know, it's so funny. Anyway, we'll go into that because where we are right now is like, they've never actually done podcasts here before. And now they do podcasts there and it's all that. But against that. But yeah, so we came to do a tour of this space and we were like, oh, gosh, this place is amazing. You know, we'll dream about it. And yeah. And then Claude was like to me, do you see this space as somewhere that we should be? And I was just like, yeah, yeah, but where we are right now, you know, it's fine because I knew how much the difference was. And I was like, where we are is fine. We can dream about this. Doom, doom, doom, doom. And it will happen, you know, when the time is right, because we know as well, we're not making any money from the podcast at the moment. So that is a big investment to then like, I don't know. Is it like triple the amount or double the amount? I think it's double. I can't put it up. Double the amount. And then Claude just. So for me, I mean, we're here. Yeah, for me, I remember the reason why I asked that question because I was walking around. I can see that you fell in love with the place. Like I can see that you wasn't going to say it because you're like, oh, he's not going to want to pay for this now. I'm not paying for it. I can't say go and pay for it. But I can see because I think this goes back to one of the points I said from very early on with you is that I see this podcast as being as much yours as it is mine. Although I'm in front of the camera, this is also your vision. And going back to like a lesson I've probably said like a million times in the podcast now, when you're a leader, yes, your job is to have the vision is to get the right people. And it's to give those people the resources they need to be successful. And I saw this as being a resource that you needed to be able to. And that's your vision for what this could be. So I just saw it as part of my job. And yes, it was hard, but you made it work. Yeah, we we are here. And yeah, definitely there is definitely something in believing each other like that we get the vision because even where we are right now, that if you ever go to Dream Factory and go on a tour, I would encourage you to do so. Obviously, you'll be taking our studio time. But, you know, do what you've got to do. They've got some really lovely sets. And actually, when we first came to see the studio, it was those sets that was like, oh, wow, I can definitely see it. But then when we started talking about the podcast, we realised that, hold on. We need something even more just free, like airy, free and not as like colourful. But, you know, so that was more us, more us. And then like we found out of all the spaces in the studio, there's like section that was like, there's a bit neglected. Like I don't think they were really using it. And but it just once again, this was you like coming in and seeing the vision of, you know what, if you move this hair and you do a few things here and then you also worked with amazing cameraman, Benny, I think it was Benny. No, it was Carl and then Benny. I think it was a combination of the two over a couple of weeks. We ended up creating what is now my favourite set for us. Although the one that we used last week that also banged as well. Yeah, I really do love that set as well. You're going to see it. Have you already seen it? Yeah, two weeks ago. But yeah, that again was, you know, it was a decision that we had to. Yeah, but I think it just makes a difference when you believe in each other. Are you just like, OK, yeah, you're not thinking to gain something else. It's all for the gain of dream nation. And if it's possible to make those investments now to get the results in the future, then, you know, you can do it. Yeah, I'm awful. Even I know that, you know, Claude says that he basically doesn't want to work for anybody else, but anybody else that I work for as well. I say the same thing that, you know, they talk about doing a set or I'll just I'll just do this and that. I'm like. If you had the money, what would you do? And then we build around what we can afford after, you know, after that. But think big and then try and based on what you can afford and create like a smaller sized version of it until you get to that. But don't limit. Don't limit yourself or your thinking and your dreaming. You're dreaming. That's actually on a quick note. If you do, if you are interested in sign up for Dream Factory, dream nation.co forward slash dream factory. If you go there, then there'll be information about the about Dream Factory and how you can potentially sign up and get a get some sort of a discount as well. Yes. And Claude is in trouble with me because we were going to do an event this November. About how to become a board member. But unfortunately, we're going to postpone it. You're going to postpone it due to unforeseen circumstances. They you know what, they were foreseeable. They were foreseeable. So I have things like the venue and all of that lined up. And I've even got like the the information to share the workshop, all of that. But I feel like I haven't been good at sometimes delivering on all the things that I that I want to do. And that's because as I look at my life, my responsibilities, I run this business, obviously, I have a full time job. I sit on a few boards. There's just a lot to do. And as I as I kind of continue to try and push things further and further and further, I sometimes will over commit myself. And that was that this this event was one of the situations. However, I think the most important thing is that whenever I do make mistakes, I do learn the lesson than I put a system in place to resolve it. We're going to talk about systems because I mean, have you always fighting about systems and procedures as well? But what I realized, so now to prevent me ever failing on pulling off event when I say I'm going to do it, I've now hired a new person to the team who's focused on logistics. We spent some time working out all the steps that are needed and yeah, taking things from there. So yes, it was something that I I undelivered on over promised, undelivered, but it won't happen again. And I know every so is annoyed because she has politic advertised it on multiple episodes in the past now. And if you was excited about that and it hasn't happened, you have my sincerest apology, you know, drop me a message on the IG so I can apologize to you directly for that as well, because that wasn't good. So you guys. Yeah. And that's something as well that I've been talking to called about that consistency. Because just a week ago, Claude disappeared for a day. Yes, to be fair, on the day that we're supposed to put an episode out. Yeah. So I had burnt out. Well, actually, no, I had sent me burnt out and I realized if I didn't stop right there and then I would have burnt out. So I guess it was like, you know what, I'm going to isolate myself from the world for a little bit, regain my energy and then come back, which worked because I was able to do my part by the next morning. But yeah, like it's not a good look. And once again, this this is partly that happened partly because there was certain tasks that I shouldn't be doing that I had to take on because we don't have things in place yet. So as you guys might have noticed, we are, let's say, inconsistent with it in social media clips out. It's like I could basically say we have no social media clips. Yeah. And we we understand it's actually one of the most important parts. If from my point of view, in all honesty, I think far more people are going to view us on social media than we'll ever watch a whole episode. So therefore, by us not putting this clips out, we're missing out a huge part of the the whole purpose of this podcast, ultimately. So because just for a number of reasons, we haven't been able to get them out consistently. It fell on me to do. And when that added to my plate with everything I've got to do, then it ended up taking being one thing too many. Yeah. And then last week, I was like, oh, don't worry, I'll take it on. I can do it. Yeah. And then I couldn't have any capacity to do it either because we both have other jobs, you know, you know, we've both got all these other things going on. So it's like as much as you can. And I've learned this about myself, that I'm more of a I can be very much a if somebody if there's an issue, I'm like, right, get it on. And in that moment, I can commit to doing all these things and wholeheartedly in that moment, I will do it. And then life says, sorry, sis, you don't have the capacity. And then sometimes I'll be fighting life like I can do I can do it. And then, yeah, again, you burn out. You know, it's interesting. No one. This is and this is now where I think sometimes we see things differently because my answer to all of that is build a good system and get a good process so that it doesn't have to be painful or stressful and it can happen ideally without anybody being involved. Whereas, like I said earlier on that episode, actually, one of your strengths, but also one of your weaknesses is like getting things done now. And I want it done now. You want it done now. And your approach is I am going to apply more effort and power my way through things, which is sometimes needed. It's sometimes needed. But if you keep on doing that, then you'll burn yourself out. But not only will you burn yourself out. If you don't build a system, then it can't scale because you can do that to produce maybe like three clips per episode. Whereas I want us to get to the point where we can put out a clip every single day, if not multiple times a day. And that's not a level that you can get to where you can just power your way through that. That requires a system that requires like a process that requires having people in place to do it. So I'm often saying and this is what was happening is that I would say to have you say, trust me, I'm building the process is happening. It's going I know it's not what you want. I know it's not fast. I know all of that. And every so it's like, I hear you. But if we don't put this episode out right now, not the episode, if you don't put this clip out right now, then it's not good enough. Or we're going to we're wasting the we're wasting like this opportunity to promote and you're not getting you're not getting the awareness that we could get. And it's like the thing is you're not wrong, but neither am I. And it's they're just both needed. But it's the push and pull. It's the push and pull. Yeah, I think it's that equal ground because we need to get so in the business of social media, we need to get social media clips out. Like, even if we're working on a process or a system, we need to get social media clips out. And I think you were saying that, you know, I'm working on this whole system and I have no and I can't see what you're doing. So in my head, all I'm seeing is there are no social media clips. And Claude said he sorted it. And so I'm like, only you like, where's the social media clip? What's going on? I can imagine it's just it's a lot. And you've again, this is not you have so many other things you're doing. But at the same time, I was like, it needs to be used to go out. And you taught me actually really important lesson on communication, though, because the I noticed the time when I like took some time out that I showed you what actually is happening. I showed you all the things that actually take in place. How the system is forming. Then then you had a completely different attitude towards it. Yeah. And I was like, that makes complete sense because to your knowledge, I made your promise and then nothing is happening. Yeah. Whereas a lot was happening is a stat building systems. Take time. Yeah. So this system business is definitely something I've I've learned with you. And you were like, you're basically forcing me to learn. You have no choice. I appreciate it because again, like I see myself that you know what I don't want to say it's even impatience, but I think it is I could be like, if I can see it, like this is what used to be done. I'm just like, let's just get on with it. But like life is not like that. And also, if you rush something, you don't get you miss things. And, you know, but then in my head, I'm like, I don't think I'm rushing it. I'm just like, let's get on with it. But process you've so gone because like that is everything you're talking about and doing the reason why I'm so confident to be like, we're not going down that pathway is because I've done this before. And in fact, I've done this multiple times before. And I've learned the hard way that this is not how it goes. And it's a very it's a very like new entrepreneur thing to do. In that sense of like, I will win through effort and hard work and creativity. You need effort, hard work and creativity, but it can only take you so far. If you want to build something that's going to honestly be consistent, last and ideally make a lot of money, then the only thing you need to focus on the system or not only thing, but your focal points should be systems. And like, I've seen this lesson so many times through my own business, through our people's businesses, through what's the season, what fells. So that's why my mindset always goes there. OK. Yeah, I understand. And I see I see the benefits. I hope you're enjoying today's episode. If you are, please make sure you subscribe to us on YouTube or whatever platform you're listening to this podcast on. Don't forget to like this video as well. So we've got systems. We've got I'm trying to think what else was on my. Let me quickly check. We do have editors. Oh, the editors. Yeah. That's been an interesting one, because there wasn't to be fair. I know when we first. I know, I know, I know. Are you sure you want to go down here? Yeah. Why not? I love everybody I spoke to. Yeah, no, but I said they were all amazing people. OK. They all were amazing. And we did have an argument, actually, semi-argument. We've had many semi-arguments. Never like actually being female or anything like that. It's always like professional disagreements. And like, yeah, it came down to us having there were two like great editors, but they're both great for two very different reasons. And I was like leaning more towards one and usually more towards the other. Yeah. Do you know what? One of them was like amazing system systems. You know, I feel like I would even love to promote this person, but I'm just going to leave it if you want to know. You can message and we would gladly share all the people that we spoke to about editing, editing this podcast. So yeah, he was very much like you not in terms of who he is, but the way he was thinking very systematically, very much about, you know, there's a process to do things, but when it came to the actual edit, I felt it was very like, robotical. And that's the problem with systems. Is that if you don't do if you is easy for systems to become soulless? Yes. And I felt I felt to a degree it was like it it wasn't getting what we were trying to do. And then the person that I came across, who is the person that edits our podcast right now. I didn't see his work. He had never edited a podcast before, but I don't even know if you knew that, but it's all on his website, but he's a photographer and he's done campaigns and stuff like that. And the way he's shot, I was like, he really embeds himself into his work. Like I can see that if he's like, OK, this is the project. He takes time to understand the project, so he edits in that way. And it's such a you'll see how the episodes are edited, including this one is so it's so smooth. There's no, like. Cut the cuts, you know, I mean, there's some there's some direction that I give with certain things, but it's just smooth and I enjoyed his color grading. And yes, I just like, you know, I fell in love with his his editing, you know, but Claude was like, that's all great, but process. And I actually hear it. And we you know, we go we're trying to streamline that now and get to understand that with the editor now because we need process is so important still. Yes, it's lovely. He knows how to edit fantastic. But in order for us to make sure we're working to the best capability and that all of us in the team are not overstretched, including the editor, we need to put in process. So yeah, it's it's combining the two and you so amazingly are going to meet him soon. I think tomorrow and and yeah, he doesn't live in London, but yeah, it's it's yeah, that's why the two need to come together. It's yeah, that's why we work well, actually, you know, it's just like, actually, that's that's interesting, because you said you're bigger picture than I come and say direct. But I guess with when it comes to the creativity, I might be I might go into Oh, this is amazing. You're like, OK, this is great, but how does this work? Yeah, it's interchanged. It is. And it's it's really helpful. And I think that's why we do, like you say, work well, so well together in that context. And I think what was also really interesting about our editor and our decision was I did say this is who I want, but I'm going to trust you on this. And when he delivered the trailer for us, like, you know what? You made the record, I would say, like so talented, so talented. He is, yeah, but now we do now see the problems of a lack of process where sometimes sometimes I'm like upload and video, like literally minutes before it needs to go live or we're getting things like not all the times that we would like, etc. And I'm mindful of, like you said, it's not just about making my life easier or your life easier. But this goes back to the resources I spoke about as a leader. I need to make sure that he's not burning himself out and that he's having a great experience of this, too. Yeah. So yeah, we do care about that. You really do like you said to me that both of us have said that we probably could edit this whole this podcast and do all the functions ourselves. But, you know, specifically with me, you said, but I don't I actually just want you to focus on the actual content, the actual journalism, you know, bringing that in. Like I don't want you to be worrying about all this other stuff because it just it takes away from it. And that was actually one of the things that I really appreciated because in my previous in one of my previous jobs, actually, I got brought in to be quite a senior role to manage a team. And it was about editorial, like editorial really. Oh, gosh, am I going to get in trouble for it? Actually, I don't care. Anyway, so I was brought in to manage a team. And I think when I initially got the job, it was looked at like they they understood my ideas. They had seen my I don't like to showcase this, but have a YouTube channel that I did years ago. Anyway, they'd seen all of that, which I was like, what? You haven't found that. And they're like, I get you. Like, we really want you to just everything you think, just give it. But then the practicality of the job, they literally stripped it all that all away from me. And they're like, we don't actually care about what you think. And in fact, you've shown that you can edit stuff. You just edit. Oh, wow. You just do this. So, you know, yeah, we know that you can do. And I was like, that's not even my job. And so when you came, there was one day you said to me, I don't want you to do any of that. I want to focus. I want you to focus on what you're actually amazing at. Like what I mean, you're amazing at all these things. But this is the thing. This is your basically your bread and butter. Do it and do it to like with an excellence. And I want you to be free to do that. I was like, wow, Claude is actually seeing, you know, the things that I can do that you believing in it. And it really, it really, really appreciated that. And I think that's also it's just encouraging. And I guess you're like you learned from the previous episode, you're a words of affirmation person. So it has it has helped. But I think even in that, like I've never even said I'm a word of affirmations person. But I think those type of things help for me to know that. Oh, OK, the person that is is paying paying me. Moola actually believes in me, not just says, oh, not just using, but actually, like, I want you to grow in this area and be the best. So a bit rumbled, but I really appreciate that. Smart pleasure. And you are doing a fantastic job. See, he always says that, even if even if I am not. No, I don't think you would do that. I think you would call me out. I'll tell you, I'll tell you where you can be better. But like as a whole, this, we wouldn't be here. Like this episode wouldn't be happening. Everything we've done before our editor, like, literally, there would be no podcast if he wasn't here. So I'm not saying that we can't get better because we will. We will. And the long game you've been talking about, which you've been encouraging me about, which I'm like, the long game has not been something I'm looking at the time. The long game where you post things and you're consistent, but you don't see you might not see exactly the results that you are looking for in that moment. Sometimes I can be like, oh, gosh, like, this is a really great episode. I really enjoyed this. Why is it not getting a certain amount of these? And you've said that, you know, I don't care. I don't care. And it's just like it takes a lot of pressure, but it also encourages me to be better. But it's like that's not common. But again, you've said that you're not focusing on what, you know, like a new you're not a new entrepreneur. You're not new to this. You've seen how things go and you you've got your mind on the things that are the bigger picture. That's good. So, yeah, this is a marathon, 100 percent. This is a marathon, and that's my mentality towards it. So as I've said to you, and I don't mind even people at home hearing this, the whole first year of this podcast, in my mind, it's practice. It's our warm up front. It's we're getting used to this. We're building our systems. We're getting to understand each other. I'm learning how to even be a host because, yeah, when we look back at our very first episode, it's painful. Although when you get to see things, you're probably confused. You don't know what the first episode. It was Courtney and René was our first episode. And what you would have seen in the audience is like, oh, this is this is not bad. What I'd be sorry you had to do to turn that into a good episode for people to see was insane, and I generally felt sorry for you. But then when we look at the things that we've done since then, all the most recent things, my hosting has become significantly better. And I'm like, that's going to happen across the board. I'll become a better host. You'll become a better producer. Editors will get better. Our systems will get better. Our social media will get better. Like everything is going to get better. So I was very OK and still am very OK with if we get if we get a million views like in this first year, fantastic, if we get 100, it is all it is. But what matters to me is the consistency. Can we keep on going? Can we keep on getting better? Because if we put good enough content out there for long enough, then we're going to win this game. Yeah, I agreed. I think it's a great place to, I think, end today. Thank you. That was very, oh, we went in. Yeah. Yeah. If there's anything that we've mentioned in terms of any resources or any support around building a podcast, if you want some advice, please feel free to send us a message. We're happy to point you in the right direction. But yeah, until next time, until next time. If you'd like some more inspiration while you wait for the next new episode, then check out the recommendation above. Don't forget to follow us on social media and you can send us a question or dilemma that you'd like us to answer on the podcast. This is Club Williams, you've been watching Behind the Dreams and we look forward to seeing you at the next Dream Nation event.