 Hello everyone, I'm James Milan. Welcome to this ACMI special. I am here at the Roasted Granola Cafe, one of the gems of Arlington Heights, and I am here to introduce the founders and of a company that is starting with an effort here in Arlington, but hopes to have a global reach. That company's name is Recirculable, and let's go meet the founders. For now, I just want to introduce the two founders of Recirculable. Farthest away from me is Ulrika Müller, and, or Müller would be a better way to pronounce it, and in between us, Margie Bell. So first of all, thanks so much for carving out the time in what are busy lives for you guys for sure, made busier by this effort to join us to talk today. It's great. So I want to just start at the beginning, which is obviously the two of your business partners. How did you meet? How did that happen? Yeah, that goes back to over five years now. No, yeah, maybe six or seven. Six or seven years, yes. So at that time back, I was doing a new company in the enterprise software company, and through the network of people we hired, Margie also joined the company. So we were working together in this enterprise software company for like four years, and got known to each other, well became friends, and also knew how we can trust each other, what we can rely on each other in a work environment. And that's how we met. So are the two of you then, what is the profession that you guys would, you know, somebody says, hey, what do you do for work? What do you say? Yeah, so we work in the software industry. We met actually working at an e-commerce company, so all that online purchasing that we're all doing. Ulrike and I built software in that domain, Ulrike for Yeah, so I have a background in computer science, more on the technical side of the software, and Margie has a background in product management. Okay, and clearly that's going to have an impact as we get to start talking about Recirculable in, you know, how it is that you came up with this idea and then rolled it out. But tell us first of all, so now we know how you met, but how did you come to realize that, hey, you have this kind of strong connection around this particular cause. And let's just say, well, let me ask you, either one of you, if you're going to say one line about what Recirculable is, what is it? Well, Recirculable really is all about removing waste in our everyday lives with a focus on takeout. So Recirculable is reusable takeout containers. Perfect. And how this came to be, well Ulrike and I were working together, we spent two years in Berlin working at the software company. And, you know, Germany has a definite culture of reuse, and I would say they're ahead of the US in terms of how they embed that in their day to day lives. And so while we were there, I noticed this movement towards reuse in takeout. And fast forward, my family moved back to Arlington and shortly after the pandemic hit. And, you know, I felt really fortunate to have a job and we wanted to support local businesses. So we did a lot more takeout than we normally did. And a lot of black plastic started to accumulate. And so it got me sort of thinking back to the experience of Germany where these reusable takeout programs were already getting momentum. And it got me thinking that this was something that we should be doing here. And I needed a partner in crime. Yeah, so Margie approached me with his idea. And at that time I had left my previous company and was thinking about what should be my next chapter. And it was also a little bit like where should I go with my life? Should I do another enterprise software company, be in a larger organization? And then what intrigued me is really the idea, the purpose of it. And I said for myself, in my next chapter, I really want to do something with a good purpose. And I could relate to this very, very well. And working with Margie again, that was exciting for me. And I also saw the opportunity to address some of these problems with digital technology. And I think we will speak about this then also later. So that all in a combination convinced me. And I said, yes, that's what I want to do. Yeah, I mean, I love the idea. And I bet others in the audience will that both of you were in comfortable jobs that you were good at. You'd had success in those jobs. You could have stayed doing that for the rest of your working lives. But instead, clearly part of the motivation here is, as you just said, there's purpose and meaning beyond corporate profit to the work that you're choosing to do now. And I think that's always an inspiring message for people to hear. And to, you know, to talk, we'll speak frankly about what the benefits of that, but also what the challenges of that can be. Yeah. I definitely think we felt like just as you say, we felt like we had a skill that we could use in a more community focused, local impact way. So let's step back just for a second and talk about the larger kind of situation and certainly the problematic, the globally problematic situation that it is that you are seeking to address in a small way, of course, right now. But give us the background or give us that larger context and why it is that this is so important to take these steps right now. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, we've put a lot of emphasis on recycling over the last years as a solution to the mountains of waste we're creating. But, you know, it's not, are the pace at which we're creating waste is far greater than our ability to recycle it anymore. And so I think as we started to look at this particular problem and saw all of these takeout containers, it was sort of shocking as I dug in to realize those black plastic containers, they have a recyclable symbol on them, but they're not actually recyclable, they're garbage. The styrofoam containers, thankfully Arlington has banned those, not recyclable. And so then, you know, you look at the solutions that have come up and have been proposed as alternatives, things like compostables, they're largely unregulated. And in fact, the studies show that the compostable containers are more often worse than other single-use alternatives. They can't be composted or only in industrial composting facilities. It's of no use when they're in your garbage. So all of this sort of like myth after myth, showing that, you know, recycling is not the way we get out of this problem. And certainly, even if you just think about the fact that the energy required, even if recycling is perfect, to take something in a form factor, break it down and remake it, is far worse than just reusing the same thing over and over again. And so that was sort of a big part of the motivation is that, you know, the only way we get out of this waste problem is by reducing our consumption is the best. But second to that is embedding a lot more reuse into our day-to-day lives. Yeah, and something that struck me in the materials that you had given me to look through in preparation for the interview is the fact that as you've just alluded to, there's a certain amount of energy being put into the process of simply what you call downcycling. So in other words, the end result of that process is something that is not either as useful or as good or, you know, it's just it's a inferior product. Yeah, exactly. And you're spending energy to get there. That's right. Yeah, like so much of the plastic does not go back into its original form. It gets downcycled into, you know, decking and, you know, it's not a it's not a circular forever recyclable cycle. So you've just mentioned the word circular and people might be wondering, what's that name of that company again? And it is recirculable, which clearly contains that as a central part of its meaning. But tell us a little bit, Rika, how did you come up with that name? And why is it that that idea of circularity is so intrinsic to what it is you guys are doing? Yes. So yes, as you mentioned, the name is a little bit a mouthful, but we and it was a longer process us to find us the name. And what do you want to have is the key what Margie alluded to is that we want to go to a circular economy that away from single use. And you see this already in other like when you think about car sharing services, that is where where things are shared. And I think that's generally a concept which can be introduced in many parts of our life. And the common term for this one is that we are in a circular economy. So where goods are circling and they're not recycled, but they are used multiple times by different people. And because that's on a bigger thing, what we actually want to introduce into the communities and to the people to think more about these circling things. And so that's why we also said that we want to have these names circle as a central element in our name. And for sure, you can become a medium with great names. But for sure, we also in our nowadays, we need to get the, for example, the domain name. And that this was really the tough thing to find a good name, which is also available as a domain. And I think we we tried hundreds of names. And finally found we found it and it has so re-circable. And it has better the circle. It has a little bit of another knowledge to recyclable. So it's not recyclable. It's recyclable. And so that's how we landed with this name. Yeah. And as we discussed before we went on air, I mean, it is exactly a perfect name for to get to the num of what it is that you're after here. But also a bit of a mouthful. It's a mouthful. We hope eventually people will get this mouthful just like recyclable. Right. Exactly. Recyclable already. So I have to ask you guys, one thing that hasn't come up in our conversation so far is who's bearing the cost for this? You know, I know this is a labor of love and of important for you guys more than anything else. But it's also intended to be a sustainable business. So right now as between roasted granola customers yourselves, who's bearing the cost? And how do you see that playing out going forward? Yeah. So first of all, we are currently bearing the cost of purchasing the containers and the conception we are lending them to the to the restaurant and the restaurant is lending to the customers. And our philosophy is that the restaurant is paying basically per use. So similar what they would pay for single use containers. And what we have seen over the last year, especially to the pandemic, even priced for single use containers went up significantly. But but it's in this range where we want to price it for the restaurant. And it's also our idea what we talked before that it should be a frictionless and seamless process. So we want to make them that for the restaurant, it does not make a difference or that and that they feel good about it using a reusable container and that they don't have to think about, okay, can I bear the cost for these for the reusable container? And also for the customer, it's free as long as they return it. It should be also not a question. Can I can I pay this additional just for reusable containers? So that's a core philosophy. And per use, this is not much. But we think about when this container can be used oftentimes that we actually at scale can build a sustainable business with it. Yeah, I think a big part of this for us is we want it to be we've had lots of debate about how do you make it sustainable in the long run. But it's really important to us that this is accessible and available to anyone. And so for that reason, we don't want to charge customers a fee for using this because you're actually doing something better in the long run. And for the restaurant, similarly, we don't want the cost to be higher to them than using single use containers. Because both the customers are taking on the responsibility of bringing the containers back. The restaurants currently at this stage are taking on the responsibility of cleaning and sanitizing the containers. So we really feel it's important to keep it equitable and sustainable for them. But by the same token, based on the projections we've done and looking at models in Europe, we absolutely believe that at scale, this can be a sustainable business for us as well, because these containers, if they're tracked well, can get used many, many times. Great. So it sounds like mostly gain, minimal pain for customers and restaurants. And let's hope it works out the same for you guys. Yeah, exactly. Welcome back. And we are going to be joined now by a couple of members of the Roasted Granola staff. First of all, Emily Patel, who is one of the two owners. Hi, Emily. Hello. And Somerset Gull, who is on the front line for Recirculable in Action here at Roasted Granola High Somerset. Thanks, you guys, a lot for joining us. And we want to hear, really, like, what is it like? First of all, what was it like for you initially, you know, agreeing to do this and what have been, you know, the pros and cons and, you know, speaking frankly. And then Somerset, as I understand it, will move to you to find out, okay, what's it like when you're actually signing somebody up and, you know, giving feedback to Margie and Ulrika, which is vitally important to do all of this. So let's start with you, though, Emily. So take us back to when Margie first approached you. And, you know, what did you think and how's it been going? We were initially very immediately intrigued with the idea. I didn't understand it at all. Yeah. How it was going to work. But Margie and Ulrika were just, you know, we're really good at meeting with us so many times. As a matter of fact, Ulrika was in Europe when we first connected. And so Margie, it fell on you to convince us. I think we were convinced from the start that we wanted to work with you. But I think it took you a while to get us to really understand what, you know, how it was going to work. And, you know, it felt good. It felt really good to be on, as we feel, the front lines of something new and something that's been happening in Europe for a while that everybody's already on board with. And so, you know, so we know that there's, you know, a solid foundation to start from and to, you know, to help launch it with you guys. It really felt good. And, you know, we were talking earlier, and this is where I'm actually throwing it out to both of you because I think each of you has a useful perspective to share. We were talking earlier about the fact that this is a, it's a work in progress and a case study for them to work out a lot of kinks in this system. So how has that been for you guys? Because you need to both deal with it in real time as something comes up that hadn't been anticipated, I imagine, and then also provide that feedback, right? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I can probably speak to that a bit. I think it probably seems very easy, kind of from the outside, just like checking out a bowl or something. But because we have like an online menu, some of our customers order over the phone, and then obviously people can come in person. There's kind of a lot of different ways that we help customers and a lot of different ways that they kind of order food. So that's been one of kind of the main kinks, I think, especially during the pandemic, when a lot of people are more likely to like order online or over the phone. And so we've been working a lot to kind of figure out how to make the system fit with our different like points of sale. I think that's, yeah, that's been one of the trickier parts. And just give us a kind of a concrete example of where that was like, you know, just something came up and you're like, oh, hadn't thought about that, or you guys hadn't thought about that. Yeah, I mean, I think with so some of our most regular customers are like the ones who immediately got on board, but they order over the phone. And so, you know, you don't know to ask them if they want it in zero waste. And they forget to tell you they might have expected their food to come in zero waste when they come to the store. But there's no like communication of that on the phone. So that was kind of something tricky. Or sometimes customers actually don't bring in their phones to the store, which we found pretty unusual because like, I mean, I always have my phone with me, but a surprising number of people just come in and quickly grab their food. And the way the system works is that you have to, you know, use your phone to scan the QR code to check out a bowl. So that was an issue you were running into. So these are folks who are expecting to get one of these their food in one of these containers and take it out. And they've signed up for the program already. But they walk in without their phone anyway. Yeah, yeah, which is which is funny, but it is it's kind of but yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of interesting to just see like how different people are using technology because I think it's very different than how I would have expected. Well, I can interject there. Through Somerset's observations and Marty and Rika, they've already solved that problem. So that that was a problem. And we, you know, we sort of found that out through our customers that didn't come with their telephones. And these guys just, you know, have all worked together to make make it work without telephones. You know, you have to sign up initially, but then you can come in and pick it up now without having to have your phone with you. So that was that was kind of a big bottleneck there. Yeah, a big hurdle, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and Margie, I mean, I'm curious, obviously, you either well, you met Emily when you approached her first. And you would not have known that Somerset, you know, spends a ton of time here and, you know, is really going to be your ambassador in a lot of ways. How, you know, how, how has that worked out for you? Like, did you realize, oh my God, we got really lucky to have Somerset when we never would have expected. Oh, gosh, we feel so lucky to have landed with Emily and Sarah and Somerset and all the staff, because it's such a there's so many lessons like I was thinking another lesson to not even just whether they have phones, but there's a natural behavior that someone might call in the order, but someone else might pick it up for them. And so that notion that even if they have their phone, if they're not the customer who started, there's just lots of scenarios that we have to think through. But it's just been such a great partnership and this chance to kind of pop in and have conversations and share. We never, I mean, we still have a long way to go, but we never would have got as far as we are without the support and trust and collaboration. Yeah, I know for America, it's probably the most difficult because we, Marty, lives right up the street, and we're already here. So it's been really nice with even just choosing what type of balls that was a huge and long, long process, choosing what type of ball works the best, just how it closes, how people are going to use it, how it looks. And there were so many aspects of it that we went back and forth for such a long time. America brought things from Europe that we could test out. And so that was pretty arduous, but it was proximity wise. It was really nice with Margie. And in that way, the pandemic helped because Margie was working at home, so she could just pop in and we could chat about things, you know, on a regular basis. And some were set being here and being here from the beginning and understanding our system, which is not the greatest system either. And that actually, because of the pandemic, is changing constantly. They keep up, they bought another, you know, we have Square and they bought something new to make things work for online ordering. And some are set was there at the ground level. So she really understands how that works and integrating that with this new process has been really, you know, just amazing, I think. Yeah. And I think also in terms of collaboration, not only between like us, but a lot of our regular customers are really good in that sense. And they like customers love to get feedback. So better and worse, but usually for better, we have a lot of really loyal customers. Yeah. So I think, I mean, I learn a lot from like what they have to say about the system. And that's, you know, that's usually what I have to share with you guys. Yeah. And I think you kind of hit it on the head. Summer said a little earlier when you said, yeah, people think, and you've alluded to this before too, people think, well, that sounds simple. You thought that sounds simple, right? And yet, you know, choice of container turns out to be like a month's long process of getting feedback and trying things and seeing how they work with the, you know, with the dishwasher and everything else. Yeah, absolutely. So everything, probably every little thing is just more nuanced and complicated than you might have anticipated. Even like the little stickers can't come off in the dishwasher, you know, just, yeah, every, every aspect. Yeah, exactly. So I'm wondering, you know, we're talking about all of the useful information that you've gleaned from having this put into practice. How about, has anything kind of funny, you know, have you had any funny stuff happen as a result of, you know, introducing this program and having it meet human, you know, fallibility and unpredictability? I don't know, funny necessarily, but I think, I mean, I think the QR system has been kind of an interesting one to work with. I used to have like an old Samsung phone, which wouldn't even accept QR codes. I know I was super worried about that when I started. But yeah, I think a lot of people who aren't like as familiar with QR codes, that's something that's been kind of funny, because like we'll have to go out and like take customers phones and try and show them how to use that system. And so it's kind of like a lot of, like you have to kind of help the customers learn on the go. So it's, that is kind of always interesting. Yeah, because if I can jump on that, I am a little curious about how it works in terms of demographics, basically, in that, of course, you would have chosen this location as we know has a clientele, which is going to be inclined to be very receptive to this as an idea. But also, I don't know, does it skew older? Does it skew less tech savvy? Does it, you know, what are we finding in terms of, you know, who this appeals to and who it's who you've got to walk, you know, hand in hand with for a while, etc. I think they're your customers. Well, and again, I will defer to Sarah, but I would like to say that, you know, that the interest spans old to young. Absolutely. The zero waste, the reusable, I would say almost more, maybe not more so, but many of our older customers, which really, until recently, most of our customers seem to be on the older side. We're very interested. Everyone is very interested when it comes to actually using a QR code, scanning things, signing up, you know, just the idea of using your phone to do it was very intimidating to a few people I spoke to. Again, Somerset speaks to many more than I do, so I'll defer there, but I do think that the technology was, was, you know, something that is a little bit of a hurdle for people to get over. Yeah, I mean, I think in general, the people who have actually signed up do tend to be older, so I think it has been a learning process for some people, just like using the QR codes and figuring out kind of how to navigate that. But I mean, honestly, like everyone sometimes has trouble with technology and just kind of like random blips have come up with, you know, younger customers too with the, with the online system. So, and people are really, have been really willing to kind of learn the new system as well. So even if there is kind of trouble, people want, people want to figure it out. So let me, let me wrap up this part of our conversation by asking all three of you what, from what you've learned so far in the process and from how far along you've made it so far. What do you anticipate over these next three months, six months, a year or so, you know, is going to happen with the program? I really anticipate it just becoming like so many other things that seem so, you know, a little bit difficult, new. People are going to slowly get used to it being, you know, I think other restaurants are going to pick it up. And I think once one or two pick it up, I think people, you know, other restaurants will be more inclined to do it. And I will see it as being a big part of our, our business, you know, I really do. I think when people have the choice, they will want to do that. There will still be people who, you know, if you're going to the beach for the day and you want to take things with you and not worry about your, your containers, you know, those will still have the, you know, the regular to go things and people who aren't on the program. But I think it'll be a pretty significant part of our business. And not too far in the future, I don't think, you know, I don't think it'll take that long personally. That's encouraging. Yeah. I think I was going to say, I think there's kind of like, in my mind, there's three parts to it. Like there's awareness that there's a problem. And I think we're still very much in that, like in the general population in that awareness phase. And then there's solutions like this that have to help solve it. And then I think finally it's got to be legislation that comes in that's going to be the final kicker to change it. So just from our perspective, because we've used Germany as an example of where this is happening at scale, one of the dominant programs there started in 2019. And it's hit two million uses on their reusable container program. So that's pretty significant. But it's fueled by, I think they're ahead of us on the awareness curve. There's more solutions. And then most importantly, they have a mandate by 2023 that all restaurants have to offer some form of reusable. So I think it's really, it takes those three things coming together for this to really take off. But I think you got to start somewhere. That's a good point with the legislation. Yeah. Yeah. And every little thing, every little step you take here, nudge it just an inch closer to that legislation, you hope. Exactly. And you know, the adopt, sometimes the legislators follow the people instead of the other way around. And not infrequently really. So how does it feel for you Emily, for instance, to know as a business owner, what is entailed? And then to be able to speak to another business owner who might be interested. Do you feel like you're going to be a helpful ambassador in this way? Because again, some of the kinks have been worked out, but also you'll be able to speak very clearly and plainly to folks who are considering this about what the pros and cons are. I think it would be, especially having worked out the kinks. And I know there are many more kinks and hurdles that we have to go over, but I would be glad to be an ambassador. I see really just positives about it. And these two women, they're amazing to work with. And I think if you have a willing staff, and Summer said so much more than just staff, she guides us through these things as well, that these pieces put everything together. I know that certain restaurants that are maybe busier than we are do more takeout, see it as a monumental step. But I think as people speak about it more and it becomes more the norm, they'll see it differently. And as things just are really positive about it, I think it'll catch on. And I will definitely advocate jumping in. I'll just say, I mean, we've been so, so thankful to have a partnership. Emily talked about how it's working with us as women. It's nice that we're also local businesses and we're women who are really trying to collectively support the community in different ways. And I think that's just been a great part of this. Great. I have been speaking with Somerset Gaul and Emily Patel from Rose Granola here. And of course, with the founders of Recirculable Marquis Bell and Off Camera, but not out of our minds, Rika Muller. I'm James Milan. This has been an ACMI special. Thanks so much for joining us. We'll see you next time.