 Hey guys, Tom Davis here, America's Canon Educator. Hope everyone is well and safe and sane. Today I'm delivering you guys something different on my YouTube channel. Shut this, cause somebody's mowing their grass. Oh, by the way, Lola's in here too. Hi Lola, she's my baby. I wanted to deliver you guys some sort of content in between my dog training sessions. So today we have a very special guest, Michael Ellis. For those of you who are unfamiliar with Michael, Michael is a dog trainer based out of Santa Rosa, California. He's somebody that I've looked up to my entire career working with dogs. I started watching Michael train at a very early part of my career. So it was a pleasure to have him on. It was a great honor to be able to chat dogs with him. So I hope you guys liked this video. And again, this is something new. I'm just doing it for you guys first and then it's gonna go into audio format on my podcast. And of course, as you guys know, this episode of the podcast is brought to you by my friends over at Dogtra. Dogtra, of course, is the remote collar that I use in all of my YouTube videos as well as talk about here on the podcast. You can use the promo code NBD10 to get 10% off your entire purchase at dogtra.com. So thank you Dogtra for sponsoring this podcast. I appreciate it. And so anyway, guys, it's something new. If you guys could just leave a comment in the comments below, let me know if you guys want more of this. I know it's a discussion that we've talked about before on my channel. I think for me, like I would want to watch two professionals talk together. Like it's nice to have the podcast. I think it's a great format. But at the same time, I think it's also nice to be able to like watch two trainers and two professionals in general just have a conversation. I think kind of having the nuances of communicating with each other and laughing and smiling and looking at each other. I think it's just a different perspective of the conversation. So anyway, if you guys like this, don't forget to like this video. Leave a comment in the comments below and let me know if you want more of this. I'll certainly, I do a lot of podcasts. So I'll certainly produce this more often. Or if there's different camera angles or different things you guys want to see, let me know in the podcast. In the comments below, I appreciate you guys very much. I have some exciting things, like I said, coming up. Some really great videos that we're putting together and some plans. I appreciate you guys. Thank you so much. I will talk to you later. Bye. I can. How you doing, Tom? Good, man. How are you? Not bad at all considering his craziness. Yeah. So what's what's California like right now? I assume it's like other places, but I don't know for sure. We're just beginning to start kind of reopening stuff up again a little bit. So they have a whole protocol in place. So phases for the reopening. So certain businesses are now allowed to reopen with social distancing and masks and limits to the number of people that can be in a certain spot and all that kind of thing. Disinfecting stuff. And they're gradually doing it in phases to come back through. So I think we'll probably resume some in-person classes at the school in June. June? But yeah. So I'm doing everything online right now. That's good. That's good. At least you got to do something. There's a lot of people that are completely screwed. Oh, yeah. No, it's crazy. Can't do anything. It's kind of forced changes on us that we were planning anyway. So I was planning on offering live online versions of lots of our classes. And so I was like, how? I worked out the technology for that. And so I'm doing it. Yeah. Just ran the first one. Adapt. So how does that work? Are you doing everything that you would teach all your curriculum in sessions just like this online? Yeah. So basically, you know at the school, the big training room, we run all our classes in. We've got good cameras. We've got cameras in there so that you can see the whole room from any angle. You can zoom in or out. That whole thing. I have a remote mic. And you run it off Zoom. I have a big screen so I can see these faces. And when they ask questions, they pop up. That's great. And then they can do practicals too from their end. So you can watch them? Yeah. So the same thing. We just flip it over and they stand up and they run practicals. And then we, with larger classes, will have the ability to break out and use the breakout room feature that Zoom has. I don't know whether you've messed with it much. No. This is like my third Zoom. I did a Zoom with Doggia and another company. And this is my third Zoom. I'm usually just on Skype or FaceTime. Yeah. The quality of the image and the sound and stuff, I've had zero problems. I ran a behavior mod class that was two weeks. And I had students from Singapore, Italy, Spain, two from Canada, and then several around the US. And we had zero technical glitches. I could see everybody here. Everybody they could see here at me. It was great. It's kind of scary. You're like, wait, what have I been doing all these years? I should have just been doing this. Do the old pajamas on the bottom and shirt on top. It's exactly right. It's exactly right. So it's cool. It seems sort of futuristic, but the time is here. It's totally doable. Exactly. That's why I've been talking to some people in the industry about how this works and things like that. And a lot of people are forced to adapt, luckily, for trainers like you and I. I've had the online stuff in place, too. And I've kind of switched it over to I've gotten an influx in training. And I just do an hour consulting, basically, just helping people navigate answering Q&A-type stuff. Really helpful stuff if you're sitting at home wondering what else to do. So it's been really good. So I was lucky to kind of just shift right into it. We just got busier. But I actually started shutting it down on my end because it was just too much. After like the six hour, you're not as present as you should be, maybe. And so yeah, I started kind of like pulling back the reins a little bit. And I was like, wow, this is probably going to go on for a while, especially in New York. It's not, you know, we have to. I'm in upstate. So I'm closer to Vermont and Canada than I am. Where are you? So I'm in close to Saratoga Springs, right outside of Albany. Yeah, I used to spend a fair amount of time there when we were in New York. I would run up to train with clubs. There was a club right outside of Albany that I trained with all the time. Yeah, I had a couple of the guys that I train with, that I'm friends with on Facebook or something, like posted a picture of you training with them in New York. Ed Meyers, do you remember Ed Meyers? Oh yeah, yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, so it was funny. I'm like, wait, and then I started kind of digging into some of your older stuff that you actually lived in. Do you live in New York City, right? Yeah, we lived, uh, my wife, Carol, went to grad school at Columbia. So we were in New York City for four years, well, on the kind of Upper West Side, right near Columbia, like, 120 years. That's cool. That's cool. Yeah, I remember what- I'd run around and train all over in the, like out on Long Island and upstate, or out to Jersey, all that kind of stuff, you know. That's cool. Now for, just so you know, Michael, like my listeners are everything from dog trainers to dog lovers, to people who just stumbled upon a random podcast when they're bored, but predominantly just people who are, you know, interested in dogs and getting into dog training and or have dogs and so on and so forth. So why don't you just, if you could, well, first question I have really quick, I wanna rewind before I forget. So how does the behavior modification work on your end with the online stuff? Are you just going through curriculum or do they actually have a dog that they're- Yeah, so I'm going through curriculum. So the way it's set up is we have, I run through kind of my ideas in general about behavior mode. It's a holistic approach and diagnosis of problems and taking histories and kind of getting to the root of things, coming up with management and obedience plan in combination and then finally dealing with the kind of pathology itself. And so I kind of review a lot of the obedience techniques that are necessary. I review management techniques, which are hugely important if you're gonna be successful with any behavior mode, you know, breaking the cycle and all those sorts of things. And then I have video to talk dog body language and things like that and video specific problems. And then what would be kind of some typical protocols for common behavioral issues, right? And we talk about the different types of aggression and separation anxiety and obsessive compulsive disorders and all that kind of stuff, right? Cool. So that's pretty successful. Then you can go through all of the background stuff and the fundamentals of why these behaviors are there. And that's cool. I was just curious. So- And I'm targeting it towards obviously dog trainers. So people are gonna be doing it professionally. So sections, I know we talk about like how you get clients to give you honest histories without feeling judged. And the stuff that's necessary, how you get people to kind of buy into the management also there sometimes. That's awesome. That's cool, because I was curious, I saw that. And there's a lot of information that I wanna talk to you about. I'm really excited. Thanks for hopping on here. I appreciate it. So cool, I appreciate it. So just so you know, and then my listeners know, there's a lot of serendipitous things that happen to a lot of different people, but there's an interesting story between, and you don't know this, but when I started getting, I've been professionally, I started dog walking and basically organically started working with all the dogs who couldn't go to doggy daycares and so on and so forth. I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll take them, whatever. Doing pack walks, the usual suspects, if you will. And then just that one phone call of helping that one shepherd led to the next and then you get it, so on and so forth. Sure. And then it just stumbled on into a career and I was just like, they're like, how are you doing this? And you know, I think it really triggered for me when I was working with dogs and gaining a little bit more ground than some of the other trainers in the area that I additionally, or originally tried to work with. And because I wasn't a trainer, I couldn't, whatever. So it kind of organically, I was pushed to the outskirts because I was young. I was like 19, 20 years old when I was really trying to get into it heavy and I'm like, I wanted to learn. I didn't have any money to learn. People wanted, and I get it, I get it. So anyway, so I talked to my friend, Jeanine Lazarus. She's from England, so she's really funny. So basically I shadowed her. She was in the area and she actually used to do Brother Christopher's remote collar classes at the monastery. Yeah, so we started getting into, she's like, well, if you're gonna do it, just follow me. And she's funny. She's an English lady. She's to the point. She's very assertive. She's like, we probably as Americans would think she's rude, but she's not. She's just like, do this and that sucks. And this doesn't, but I was just like, I'm imagining, I'm having a hard time conceptualizing a lot of the philosophy of dog training. I know how to do it. And I'm sure you see that as a teacher. Oh, all the time. You see a lot of people who are very organically and natively gifted with working with animals and there's a lot more to it. And we'll talk about that in a little bit about how to make that a business and grow that into a training career. But so she gave, she said, you gotta watch Michael Ellis. And I said, okay, where, how? She's like, well, you can go to Leerberg. And I said, okay, what's that? And I'm like, I don't know any of these things. I'm like, I pick up poop for a living in my mind. So anyway, so she said, no, you have what it takes. She saw me working with dogs. And so anyway, so I started watching your stuff. This was a long time ago. And I can still hear Ed Frawley's voice and that little- Yeah, that little jingle in the beginning. So anyway, so I got into your stuff many, many years ago. And it was just a lot of, and then I kind of started getting into other Leerberg trainers like Forrest and so on and so forth. And then so I was like, okay, this makes sense. And you were like the first person I saw that made dog training, in my opinion, the way that I saw it. You were the first person that I saw that actually made it look like a career. I didn't, you know, I didn't see other people that were, you know, because you had your school and you were teaching. I was like, you know, people are, you know, I could, there's a living out there. And I didn't, I just was young. I didn't know. So, and then organically, I got into remote collar training, working with her. And then it got into like, you know, me offering it to clients. And then I started to realize the political standpoint of it. And I was like, wait, what do you mean? It's just, you know, as a professional dog walker at the time, you know, just working with dogs in general. But anyway, so long story short, it was interesting because when I went out to, so I became friends with Forrest probably five years ago, we've been tight, we talk regularly. And then I went out to Lerberg for a Tyler Muto seminar. And it was funny because after watching all your videos at the end, Forrest knows that I was interested in protection work. I like the idea of it. I like the, I just like getting into it. So the decoy work, it was interesting to me. So he actually said, hey, do you want to, you want to do a little bite work after, you know, Tyler's thing? I said, yeah, sure. That would be cool. And then he's like, well, why don't you, I'll go grab Rush and we'll do some. And I'm like, wait, wait, Rush, Rush? Like, like Lerberg, Michael Allen? Pretty dog, right? Yeah, it was just, it was just so like, it kind of came full circle. So I ended up taking bites from Rush and it was just so funny because I kind of like, I remember just, as you said, like so many people go through the same process with you of like remembering the old times and I just sat on the computer and watched Rush and then I was taking bites from him, which was so cool. It was cool. Yeah, it just kind of like came full circle. And then Forrest was like, you know, cause next time I went to Oregon, he's like, we should go down to Michael's school, hang out, you can meet Michael and all that stuff. I said, yeah, that would be awesome. That would be cool. And then we went down and I know that you and Forrest hadn't trained in a while together and he hasn't been, he hadn't at the time been training at the school like he had been in the past. And so it was kind of cool to be part of like, you know, two of the people that I kind of watched helped me get into the career and made me confident in the career. And then I kind of saw you guys kind of reignite your training relationship together. And that was, that was pretty cool. I was really happy when Forrest landed out on the West coast and we got to spend time together again. So yeah, it's been really good. So you, you hooked yourself to the right kind of person. He's a, he's a super good dude. Yeah, I love Forrest. Yeah, we got training chops kind of is here. So yeah, and it's good. I'm just like, you know, just listening to him talk and rant once you get him going is always pretty fun. So anyway, so I just wanted to share that with you that it was, is a very like, yeah, it was just a cool story how it kind of all came full circle. And I think, you know, I worked really hard and just, you know, got my, got myself at the right place at the right time. And I'm grateful for getting to know you guys and be able to communicate with you guys. Really cool. That's fabulous. And it's lovely to hear. I mean, you always, it's always nice when, when people connect with the right people at the right time in their development. I'm a big proponent of exposing yourself to lots of different trainers and lots of different ideas and that kind of thing. Because you don't know when your, your growth is going to be ready to receive a certain idea. And I know certainly when I was learning about dog training early on, I had people tell me things and show me things that I wasn't prepared to receive at that point in time. You know what I mean? Like I didn't have a place to put it. It all made sense. It seemed logical, but my experience, I had no place to put any of that. And so it drops away. And two years later, you're like, oh, oh, that was a good idea. That was, I don't know. I know why and that's connected. And so by kind of keeping yourself open in that way, then you, when you, when you hit the right person at the right time, it can really move your way of thinking forward. So it's a, it's a lovely thing. Yeah. It was very, it was very organic. And anyway, so I just wanted to share that story with, with you and then my listeners as well, just cause it was like such a full circle thing. So for those of you who don't know who you are and what you do just quick, you know, quickly, you don't have to go through your whole, your whole where you started and stuff like that. But why don't you just tell a little, little bit about yourself, what you do, how long you've been training and things like that really quick. Yeah. So I've been training since I was a kid. So I, I got a German Shepherd when I was 12 and the parents said I had to train it. So I happened to take a class at the local German Shepherd dog club of San Diego, an obedience class. And then I got kind of hooked, got involved in, in junior showmanship, showing dogs in confirmation and got into AKC obedience and all this stuff as a kid and had German Shepherds all through junior high and high school. And so a dog training was always kind of a big hobby for me. I had no intention of doing it professionally. And then when I was 18 or 19, I got connected with a sport club with a Shudson club. I was at a dog show and saw a police and Shudson demo at a dog club. And I was dog show and I was totally stoked to do that. So I went and none of the dogs I had were suitable and I started doing decoy work. And so it was a hobby all the way into college and things like that. And I taught some classes at pet stores to, you know, to make money on the side. And that- Like big box stores or local? Yeah, big box like at supply warehouse was soon and those kinds of places that were in San Diego. I worked a friend had a boarding kennel and I would do part-time inboards for him and stuff like that at that point in time but really no intentions of making it a profession. And I got asked by a club that I used to work with that I had gone and trained with if they had a bunch of new members and asked if I'd come in and kind of show the new members the ropes. I did a little kind of clinic-y thing for them. And I did that and it went relatively well and then- Here you are. Somebody referred me to another club and so I did one for another club. And at that point in time I was contemplating grad school. My wife was too. And that started to pick up steam. And I wasn't really like setting out to make a career out of it but getting asked to do seminars and the seminars kind of started to expand. I'd worked with some police departments and next thing you know, I was doing seminars around the country full-time. And I did that for 13 years. Basically traveled full-time giving seminars to either dog training clubs, professional organizations like service dog organizations, police departments, all that sort of thing. And near the end of that time I just couldn't handle the traveling anymore. I was traveling between 40 and 45 weeks a year. I was doing 40 some seminars a year. And at that point I'm like, what do I do? I can stop and start a dog training business but I've spent the last 12 or 13 years coaching other dog trainers to be better dog trainers. And so of course you're training dogs and in that period of time I took in in more dogs and gave people lessons and stuff while when that was starting but pretty much I was training trainers full-time. So that was the impetus for me to open a school for trainers. And that was 10 years ago. So the school's been open for 10 years. And I think we just had our 1200 students go through. Wow, that's cool. Yeah, so it's been. Yeah, that's cool. Cool. Yeah, cause I was- Stenal career. I just plugged a lot. Yeah, cause I was interested. Yeah, that's cool. Cause I was gonna ask you how you transitioned into, so you basically started off doing club seminars and clubs are usually a group of dog trainers or hobbyists or both. Yeah, exactly. And then you're like, well, I've been doing this for so long, I might as well just keep doing it and you got a place and did that in Santa Rosa. And yeah, so originally, so when I opened the school, we were in the East Bay and we were just out on over near what would anybody recommend? We were in a little town called Fairfield, which was over on the East side of the bay near Berkeley and that area. And then we were there for five years and then Carol and I bought a place in Sonoma. And so we started looking for it. And we moved into the Santa Rosa place five years ago. Okay. We bought an old school there. Yeah, it's like, it's perfect. It's perfect. It's so set up for what you guys do. And I remember when I was out there last time, we went out to, we got lunch and stuff and then we went to, so are you planning on expanding? I know that you were in discussion about potentially doing something like that. Are you still? We have lots of changes afoot. Expanding is, yes, it's going to expand and that we're going to be able to serve more people. So I'm going to do less kind of of what I have been doing for the last 10 years, which is basically stand in front of a class for seven hours a day and talk and train. So that's getting broken up. We're going to do more hybrid live and online classes. So people can take them remotely. I have Forest who's now working for me again, which is great. And I have a couple of other trainers that are very familiar with what we do. And so we're starting to kind of work on options where they're teaching more classes there and a little more focus on our long-term students and then more remote classes for the short-term students. Right, no, that makes sense. That's cool. So I think we'll wind up serving more students, but I won't be like teaching live as much as I have been, right? Yeah. So you're kind of just stepping away from, like you said, the day-to-day operations of... Yeah, so that mean for years, I taught everything, which meant basically our classes, you've been there, you know what they're like. Class starts at 10 in the morning and we wind up at 4.30 or 5 in the evening. Yeah, it's a long day. And classes are typically one and two week long classes. They're intensive type classes on specific subjects. Outside we have a long-term program where students are with us for five months, but most students come for a one week or two week long class. But pretty typically those are full days of me teaching and then everything else that we were doing was happening outside of that. So if I did any video projects or I did any online classes, any of that stuff that was happening outside of that as well. So my schedule was pretty much, you know, it was a lot of hours. That's a lot of work. I'm taking this spot where I wanna slow down a little bit on that. Like last year, I started training my own dogs and competing again a little bit. And so I've been jockeying the schedule to make that kind of stuff happen. So, and this pandemic and the forced pause allowed me to push a whole bunch of energy into the online stuff that I've been talking about doing for years. I've been talking about it forever and just never get around to it. So the sort of kind of forced it to make it real and I think it's gonna help. We'll actually be able to reach more people. Yeah, for sure. With a little less time on my part and record some of the lectures and stuff like that people can listen to and then my time can be used in a kind of more targeted way. Yeah, that's a smart idea. And that's something that I've always, I'm trying to, that's why I'm really big on, like I'm getting into more of the zoom stuff and kind of doing like what you're talking about is just setting up a, setting up more of like a scalable operation where you're filming maybe one of the classes with some of the students and then you're putting it out for purchase so people can do that and it's more scalable. Yeah, absolutely. That's cool. And ultimately the mission is to reach as many people as possible with good. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And at the base level and there are lots of people that can't afford for the time and the money to travel to the school. Like it's a big endeavor for people. So we certainly have lots of students that make it work but it's a big commitment. Yeah. When I'm off they need to find places to stay when they're there. Yeah. But a thing. And so being able to offer more stuff to the general public and kind of just get good training information out there as much as possible. Yeah, no, that's cool. I like that. That's a good idea. And it saves you too. So that way your quality over time and everybody's getting like what they want from you instead of you're basically just copy and pasting. That makes sense. That's cool. Cool. So that's what you're doing right now. That's the operation and that's your goal for the next year, the next two years. And I think that'll work out good for you just because like you said, this kind of forced pandemic has made everybody adapt and say, okay, well now we're doing this. And if we were thinking about doing it, now we're definitely going to do it. Excuse me. Yeah. So a couple of questions I have that I want to discuss with you and get your opinion on it. And I'm sure that you've covered these topics before. Moving forward with technology and the dog training industry. What's your, how do you feel? So for me, like I said before, I got into talking about remote collar training or e-collar training. I got into it very organically. I basically, my Saint Bernard, which is over here, he's one of my pets. He played chicken with a train one day. And I, it was just a really tough thing. I basically had to make the decision to either run and risk my own life to get him off or watch him, you know, get it by the train, really dark. But anyway, it taught me a big lesson. Moved me towards how can I train my dog off leash? And I literally asked my friend Janine and she's been doing e-collar training. And so I got into it. And then, like I said before, I wasn't until I started asking my clients if they were interested into remote collar training that I found the political side to, you know, I think it's ignorance, probably is a good way to put it. So the e-collar ban is happening in more countries now than before. What is, I'm just interested in your standpoint because of how involved you are in the dog training world and how much you've been doing it, and how much knowledge you have in it. And I just wanna give you my standpoint on it just really quick. And then you can reflect on what I have to say. Cause I think, like for me, I've changed my opinion so many different times where before I was like so mad about it. I'm like, this is just crazy. I just don't understand, you know? But then I started kind of thinking, I said, well, maybe it might be better in some places because people really don't have the tools, knowledge or accessibility to use. Maybe when I started taking a step back and I think that that's part of being a dog trainer is constantly evolving and shifting. So anyway, so I'm kind of like in limbo, I'm like maybe some places are better off without them and then other places aren't. What's your, can you give me your opinion on that? Yeah, I think it's an incredibly valuable tool that's used correctly. And the reason that we see tool bands in general is because twofold, one, people don't understand their use and they don't understand good dog training. And there is a psychological aversion to the use of electronics and as a form of punishment. People just think of getting shocked. People are very, I think on an atavistic level very sensitive to that. Like people, if you touch something shocking, people get really edgy about that. They find it very psychologically scary in a sense a little bit. So they're projecting that. They don't kind of, they don't know what the stimulation feels like. They don't, all that stuff. So if you're talking to people that don't know anything about the tool, then you say shock collar, you say these things and people have ideas about people shocking dogs. And so there's a psychological aspect that allow people to go, that tool seems like it shouldn't be used, right? And people don't understand its use either. And there's a long history of people using it poorly. So you can go out there and people can drop videos of people using the tool absolutely poorly. And that tool, because people are a little bit resistant to its use in general, because people are like, I don't want to shock my dog or anything. Then people only want to bust it out when there's a problem. Exactly. They look at it like it's the largest stick, you know? Exactly. Exhausted all other possibilities. Now it's time for the E-collar, which is absolutely the wrong way to approach its use. Yes. It's not going to fix a problem of communication. It's not going to fix a problem of timing. It's not going to, none of the rest of these things, it's a tool like any other and it's subject to all the same laws. And so for me, I'm obviously a huge proponent of educating everyone on all the possible aspects of dog training and all the possible aspects of all the various tools that we might use and the good things about them and the things you need to watch out for. And that takes time. It takes energy. It takes people committing to that process. And so I think because the tool is easy to abuse if you're not paying attention, then it lends energy to the people that want to ban it, that people out there are people out there that we all know the divide in the dog training world, which a huge part of what I'm trying to do is get those groups to talk to each other and understand each other. But I think a lot of that is from a lack of experience or the wrong kind of experience with the tool. I mean, I think somebody that's seen them used properly and appropriately recognizes their value that many dogs might be improved. And so for me, all those things come together and it's all about education, the whole things about education. Should the tools, any of the tools for dog training be used in a knee-jerk fashion? No, none of them should, right? There should be a thoughtful plan for all of that. And so I get the idea that you would want people to have to demonstrate some kind of, like they are in certain places where they're wanting, the idea that you would license people to use them or teach things. Like that's, it's a hard world to navigate, but I get the impulse for that. I understand, I have that sometimes. Don't use this until you understand timing and you should be able to demonstrate certain proficiency. The problem is that that's hard to apply in a large way. So I think our job is not to kind of vilify any of the tools. It's to get out there and educate people about their proper use. And they do get used in the wrong situations and they get used the right way a lot too. Yeah, I think it's good what you said in the beginning. I recently had a post that I did because a lot of my clients are really, what I often find dog owners do is they say, I don't want to have to use the E-collar. And for me, I'm like, that's like saying, I don't want to have to break out this really nice bottle of wine, but I will if I have to. It's like really? So for me, exactly like you said, it's something that people don't want to reach for necessarily. And for me, I'm doing the best I can to wrap my head. I think I'm trying, and again, I'm trying to be devil's advocate, glass half full, being super empathetic to the ignorance that is there. Because I think that, like you said, I think that that's what it's all about is people just having no idea of what it is now versus what it was and how it's being used in the variations of stimulation and levels. Like, go ahead. And I think for me that part of the thing you have to worry about, like so there are people that don't want to use E-collar because of the way they think about it. They don't want to use a remote collar because of the way they think about it. Like, ooh, that's mean to my dog kind of thing. And that's the wrong way to think about it, certainly. And that's certainly not the case if it's used properly. Not that there aren't places where you're using it in a way that's unpleasant for the dog, for sure. There are situations in which that is necessary. There are emergency situations and things in which that's necessary. But the idea that it's somehow bad to the dog, I mean to the dog, that's a misconception if it's used properly. What I see on the other end, like when people get dog trainers get really enamored with it too. So you want to use it for everything, even things that you wouldn't technically have to use the collar for, right? Yeah, I've been there. That are good. And when people get that enamored with that tool, you can become reliant on it. And it is a piece of technology, right? And so if it's not applied properly, not only could you can make a dog that's not responsive without the collar really easily. And then if the collar doesn't work, you have one that malfunctions or your dog's run over by the train anyway, right? Yeah, exactly. There's ways to use it properly. And if you want to have your dog be responsive without the collar too, it's a more involved, longer training process to do it correctly to make sure that the tool's there to reinforce your training but the dog doesn't become reliant on that tool. So there are things that people need to navigate, I think that's important. But you're spot on the people that are like, I don't wanna have to use the collar that they think they're being mean to the dog which is misconception. Yeah, and I've just been, and I'm guilty of a lot of that because I'm just so enthusiastically passionate about, like I'm over the top sometimes. And using my platform on social media, on YouTube, same thing with you, if you watched the video of training that you did five years ago, six years ago, you know, my process has changed a little bit. But anyway, so I used to just be so, like you said, enamored with just like people, like you can use it for all these different things. And like that you get caught up where you're like somebody like myself, a newer balanced dog trainer 10 years ago, I was just like, the collar you can use for everything. Like let's just trust me. And I was so trying to get people over the fact of how it doesn't shock your dog. You know, I just try to use it for every application that I thought of my head as creatively as I could of using it as a marker and using it as an association and just I'm trying to get creative and turn the wheel a different way and just, and try to, and mainly it was mainly because I was so frustrated with dog owners shying away from it. It was very, it almost hurt my feelings. I was like, I want you to understand so bad that I'll do a circus to try to get you over that line. Which leads me to like another conversation too is how do you approach situations and I'm sure being on the level that you're at in the seminars and the crowds that you draw if it's 10 or 100, how do you deal with somebody who just won't accept new information because of an opinion on a one-dimensional thought process. I know it's a layered question, but- No, no, so my goal is to present the information that I know from my personal experience and from science to the best of my ability and then respect people's ability to make their own decisions about that and their dogs got trained for many years without electronic collars, for many years without treats, so there are methods out there and approaches out there. I think there are benefits in certain circumstances that where the E-caller works better and is the kinder option in certain cases, but there are other approaches and so if somebody is really resistant, I've not on me to judge their stance on it and as long as I've done my best to give them what I consider to be the best available information at that point, I do my job there and then if they're still resistant, my next job is to just try to supply them with alternatives. And so then if emotionally or whatever reason for whatever you're at the point where you take the stance you are and you don't want to use that tone, cool. Then all right, I've given you why I think it's the right tool for this situation or it might help in this situation and I give you the best science I can give you and now, okay, here's some alternatives. Here's the other ways I know of thinking about approaching that problem. I think now like in dog training, people have a tendency to specialize, right? So the reward based clicker trainers are really in their niche and the E-caller trainers getting in their niche and so it's easy to kind of disregard other branches of the training world and I would encourage anybody that has an interest in training and certainly anybody that's doing this professionally to get out there and dip your toes in all those waters because then you'll have solutions for those people because you're gonna run into people that you won't be able to help if they won't use that tool and maybe you can use one of the alternatives. So that's kind of how I approach it. Yeah, yeah, no, that's good. Yeah, that's good, that makes sense. Have you ever had anybody go through your school that tried to just because you said 1200 students, right? Is that what you said? 1200 individual students. Yeah, it's a lot. Have you ever had anybody go through your school trying to just push against what you're doing? I'm just curious if you've ever had anybody, okay. I've had lots of people like that at seminars. Yeah. Like I did when I did seminars because you go do one and two and three day seminars all over the place. And so you'd get a really resistant person at a seminar but pretty typically if somebody comes to the school they've done their research. They like the way we think about dog training and that's, you don't just casually pop into the school. It's not like, oh, hey. I just thought I'd pop in on your class, right? They're a pretty good big commitment for people in terms of time and energy. And so they've usually done their research. So not really. There are people there that like, it turned out to be different than they thought and things like that. But there are no people that's strongly resistant. But we used to get those kinds of people at seminars all the time. In the back of their arms crossed, I didn't have this whole shit. In the early stages of my training, giving seminars and things like that, I was a little, that would make me a little uncomfortable and it would rattle me a little bit. I still did my thing, but it would rattle me a little bit. As I got along, I loved those people. Like I looked at them as a challenge. You're a teacher, ultimately. Like if you're helping people with dog training, you're a teacher, right? And so like how do I reach this person? Because I know the information I have to give them is useful for them. And they don't have to take it all, but there's stuff in here that's gonna help them and it's gonna be useful to them. And I just have to get them in the place they can receive from me. And so I always looked at those people as a little bit of a challenge. A seminar about talking to that person. In a not overt way. Yeah, I've done that before too. If I feel you'll get the husband, like not at seminars, but like in private training where they're like... For sure. No, and then I'm talking to him as I'm talking to her. Exactly right. And again, it's just like, as dog trainers I think that there's a level of passion for the animal. I think that that's where it starts. And then it kind of builds on top of that as far as a career and different paths. But it's tough because you care so much and you know in the back of your head that what you're trying to apply or the things that you're trying to do with the dog ultimately is going to benefit the dog and the individual that hired you is also arguing with you. It becomes kind of tricky. And you have to be patient with people because you've spent a significant amount of time developing an expertise and working with this, right? And that doesn't happen overnight. Like you weren't able to process and certain ideas at a certain point either. Like when you're talking about your 19 and your dog walking, your instincts, your feeling things, you're starting to know some things but what you don't know far outweighs what you know, right? And so I always look to newbies that same way like there are people there that are gonna be resistant because it doesn't jive with the rest of their experience. So I have to be patient with them while I bring them along and what they need to know to accept this idea may be built on a whole bunch of other building blocks that they haven't been supplied yet. Sometimes you're way back to basic, basic learning theory and that kind of thing in an attempt to get them to the point where they can receive what they need to receive. Well, I think what you said in the beginning was good about and I'm still in that level. I'm at that level where I'm getting information that I know is good, but I don't know where to stick it. I'm like, you know, talking to like somebody like Forrest where there's a lot of this stuff going on with obedience and I'm like, if there's a, you know, cause I'm more of a behavior mod guy. I'm like, if there's a problem, that's what gives me goosebumps. That's what I'm like, let me in. Like the dog's trying to kill people, let me in. And then, you know, but getting the information about, you know, competitive obedience and, you know, different rings. I love everything with dogs and I like intaking it, but I don't know where to compartmentalize it. I'm like, this is important, but I don't know where to put it. And I think that that was a really good way to look at it. And I think that that's true because that happens, you take that information and you don't really know where to put it. But so, Michael, like you take in, you know, 1200 dog trainers, where do you think you're taking a step back and like overall looking at the bigger picture of the dog training industry? Where do you think it's going? Cause I think in the last, I don't know, it just, it's hard for me to say cause I've, I haven't been in it long enough to take a big look back and see the development of where it's come from where it's at. But it seems to me that it's becoming because of I think a couple of different things. Social media, creating an Instagram account and just Fido's Dougie Bootcamp professional dog trainer behaviorless, boom, there I am, you know, ordering business cards and you know, it is what it is. But anyway, so it kind of just seems with social media and people having to love because they love dogs and businesses being created. And there's a time and a place for that. I think, you know, on a very micro level of doing basic obedience, I think it's pretty much harmless for the most part, but what I'm more like I want your opinion on taking a step back and seeing the development of dog training and where do you think it's, where do you think it's headed? Yeah, so it brings up a whole bunch of interesting thoughts and questions in there. So one, I think that the trends in dog training mirror the trends in society at large, right? Yeah. It's about dog training, you can't evolve as ideas about child rearing did as well. You know, some of the reward-based revolution that began to take place in the 80s, right? Is when it really started to take off and later 80s, especially in the early 90s is when things started to hit before that, people weren't doing rewards in dog training to speak of. And so that was also mirroring a time in society where people are talking about, hey, don't spank your kids and, you know. Oh, okay. There's ways of thinking about behavior and all that kind of stuff, right? And so I think that a lot of the trends and ideas there follow along. And so people get really enamored with one idea. They take it kind of to its logical extreme. And then they realize, ooh, you know, some things that we were doing before were better than these and it starts to find its way back, right? And it has little swings like that. And I think it'll continue to chase those things as people try to find the best combination of all the new information that we get to do the best job for the dogs. And so it's always kind of adjusting a little bit based on kind of society's ideas. Ultimately, it should be about what's best for the dog in front of you, right? But it's also not just that simple for people that are doing it professionally. They have to be able to get somebody else on board, right? They have to be able to get on board for their protocols. And that means selling it to them in some fashion, even if I don't like to call it, but you have to convince them that what you're talking about is the right way to do that. And so the trends in society, in the way people look at those things, affect people's ability to do that. So I think that it's swinging around and it's trying to find its equilibrium. I think we were way too aversive at one point. Now we've gone the other direction too much. And now there were lots of people out there trying to find the right balance. And the balance is a different place for different dogs. And so there isn't a sweet spot is what sweet spot for one dog isn't for the other and all that kind of stuff that we know. Social media and the internet is a double-edged sword, right? So it allows the free exchange of ideas in a really easy way. Information is available to people that certainly wasn't when I started dog training. If you were to learn it, you could go get books. You would go to the library. And that kind of stuff, but you were not getting the same kind of information. You could just go on the computer and see video examples of all kinds of stuff, right? So the amount of information that's accessible to more people in the industry and to the layperson is astronomically higher. But the double-edged sword part is they have to wade through what's good and bad because there's so much crap out there. Like that's, and there's so many that you alluded to it, instant experts. All somebody can do is if they're good, if they're good social media influencers, they can take some nice pictures and videos. And they can be giving lots of people advice when they may not really have the experience giving good advice and people have to kind of wade through the people that really kind of know what they're doing and know what they're talking about and don't. And that gets harder when you don't have the same kind of personal access to people, right? You see what they want you to see. When I started, you went out and you saw people in person working with their dogs. And after a few rounds, I could tell whether somebody knew what they were doing or not because I could watch them with their dogs. If it's over the internet somebody can take the perfect clips and throw them on here and you don't know what they know and you don't know what happens when they're not doing it. So there are parts about it that I think are great and parts about it that are a little bit of a problem. Also, without going too far down the rabbit hole, I think we live in a society where instant gratification is a huge part of what we do. People want what they want now. They wanna get professional trainer tomorrow. And it takes years and years to get really good at anything. It doesn't matter what it is, you wanna be a plumber? You can go to plumbing school. Are you an expert plumber when you get out of plumbing school? Hell no. 20 years down the road, now you're an expert plumber. You know every little problem you know, you've seen it all, right? At that point. And that's when you're an expert. And no matter what, there is no substitute for that. But there is, there feels like there's a lot of trainers out there that are in too big a hurry. Like enjoy the process. Like it's, dog training is fascinating. It's you'll never be bored. Endlessly interesting. And enjoy the growth. Let it happen the way it's supposed to happen. Like you can have ideas and you can understand it. I can explain something to you and that makes sense to you. And you can turn around and tell somebody else the same thing. But that doesn't mean you've done it 50 times and you know in your body what it's like, right? That comes just with life experience. And so I think just kind of coaching people into like take it a step at a time. It's going to take you a while to get very good at this. And don't put the car before the horse a little bit. I'm telling students all the time, like, hey, don't worry as much about your business cards and the van wrap and stuff like that. Figure out what you're doing. That stuff will take care of itself. I don't know a single dog trainer that's good at what they do. That doesn't have more business than they can stand. They can't keep up with it if they are truly qualified. But everybody's looking at angles to sell what they're doing in the beginning. Slow down on that. Get good at what you're doing and then the other parts will take care of itself. But anyway, that's it. Yeah, no, no, no. That's it. Off my soapbox, I think. No, no, no, it's good. It's good. I love that. And that's the beauty of the podcast. It's very informal and I love that. And that's true and I get that question often, very often and we'll talk about that in a minute of how to build. I remember I did this seminar in LA and actually it was, I did it for free. I did it for, I did it for raising money basically for shelter dogs and yeah. And so I remember this one guy came up to me and he said, hey man, how do you get to travel? And I had a video guy with me to record my sessions and to put it out. And I said, I don't understand the question. He's like, well, how do you get to a point where your people are flying you places and you can go places and people will attend and know who you are. And I was just kind of taken back. I'm like, you can't pay for that. I said, and I started kind of thinking about it. I'm like, people, I think people think that there's this secret that all of a sudden you just hit the right key on the right board and pof you're like. And it kind of made me put things into perspective that I think that that's what it comes down to is dog training. And actually you and I had this conversation at the Mexican place across the street. We had a conversation about, I was talking about, because I'm sure you get this too. And we had this conversation about production companies and TV and the amount of inquiries I get of like, hey, we want you to be involved in this next big hit TV show. And you're like, we had this conversation about actually dog training is actually pretty damn boring if it's good. And you got it exactly. And you got slow. Yeah. I remember we had this conversation because you had a friend that was in TV and you're like really, and they asked you to do it and you're like, it's not, it's really not as glamorous. So anyway, so that that's something that kind of clicked with me that going back to social media and things like that, that you got it, the proof isn't the pudding. You have to, and for me, like there's, there's, I started putting content out on YouTube because I wanted two things. I thought that some of the basic stuff that I was teaching people how to put collars on, right? So on and so forth. Little tiny stuff, micro stuff could help people. The macro for me at the time and still is, but now it's being overtaken is I wanted feedback because I wanted to work with other people. I wanted to get information out for feedback and mirror. And I didn't, and I was, I didn't know anything about YouTube and how it was gonna grow to where it's at now. But anyway, so anyway, so it was just like one of those things that I think having, like you said, like going out and you just have to put the time in. And for me, now that I deal with like really a, like, so when I do a title on YouTube, here's what I do is if I have a dog that comes in that's barking at me, habitually barking, showing teeth as they bark, but not showing teeth separately. I'll say aggressive, blank, so German Shepherd, Pitbull, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And the reason I do that, and I get shit for it sometimes because people are like, that dog's not aggressive. I'm like, I know that. But the people who don't know dogs who are searching because they have the same issues are saying my dog's aggressive when it's a very fear-based, genetic, not confident, very vocalization, blah, blah, blah, type barking. And so anyway, so there's just an interesting chemistry that happens when you put stuff out on the interweb. But what I started doing is I started doing almost live sessions where dogs would come in, some of them very rarely were they actually aggressive, very rarely do they actually back up what they mean. And then in display and normally. Well, it's really uncommon. Yes, exactly. In my opinion, in my experience, the dogs who were serious never were vocal. They just went in. They were like, I want a piece of you or the other dog. And if they were, if really truly aggressive dogs were that common, then we'd have a lot more dog legislation. We wouldn't have, people a lot more wouldn't have dogs. Yes. Like the truth of the matter is, if you think you're like half the households in the country have dogs. Yes. Yes. So if they were, if there was a 10% of them were really actually, truly seriously aggressive. Yeah. Like not everybody can have dogs anymore. Exactly. No, it's a good point. And so anyway, so going back to what that guy was saying in LA is I just said, man, you gotta just put yourself out there. I mean, if you're like you said, if you believe in what you're doing is purposeful and meaningful, could help an individual on the other side of the world that's desperate and needs help. And they can watch a video of you putting on, you know, instead of getting a 3.2 prong collar hanging down to their neck, getting a 2.25 that sits properly can change their life on a walk. Then put that content out as long as you're confident with it. And so anyway, I guess I was just getting into a lot of people are in that instant gratification of I want to be this, I want to be that. And it's like, then put yourself out there. There's not many, if you look at dog training in scenario based situations, there's more, there's way, way, way, way, way more talented dog trainers out there than I think people realize. However, there's not a lot of people who are good teachers and are able to teach humans how to take that information and make it digestible and understandable. I tell that to people all the time that email me and they say, I want to get into dog training, but and I always tell them like, there's a lot of people who are really great with animals but you have to be able to do a little bit of both of being a good teacher. 100% you do. Like that's a good people are, a lot of people are attracted to dog training because they are uncomfortable with people. Yeah. So anxious and. Yeah, that's a good point. And I like dealing with people and like the dogs, like they can have these relationships without being judged and see. So there are lots of people that are drawn to this. Unfortunately, if you're going to make a living at it, there are very few options for people to make a living where you just work with the dogs and you don't have to deal with people on the other side. 100%. And you will realize very quickly that your success is driven by how well you reach the person on the other end of the leash. And people like it, like those people like inboards, but it doesn't matter, you take a dog in, you can do the best job in the world. If you can't communicate to those people when it goes back and you can't get them on board and you can't get them enthusiastic about working with the dog, it's going to go away. Like there's no magic bullet is not going to last. You don't have to fuck for six weeks and then there you go or. Yeah, that transfer. That transfer is all about your human interaction. It's huge. And I say that all the time to my staff. I say, we're really not in the dog business guys, we're in the people business. And like I said, if you can be a better communicator and kind of a less talented dog trainer and have more success because of your ability to communicate to individuals and to people. And I think a lot of people struggle with that, that conversion, I would call it a conversion. I don't know, it just popped in my head that people need to be able to convert that to the owners and educated. And of course it depends on your niche too. Exactly. Finding their things. So like obviously if you're training police dogs and things like that, then at a certain point you have to have a certain level of skill. Otherwise your product is not going to get you and you're going to be out of business, right? So pet dog training, lots of people that are not doing super great training can still make a living because they're dealing with people that don't know what they're doing, right? It's better than nothing. Yeah, so you look like a genius because the people you're talking to don't know anything about dogs. So there's these gradients as you move up through the different levels of training where things get more involved and the actual skill of a trainer. You don't have to be a super skilled trainer if you're a good teacher to help somebody with their dog. Right. So you don't have to be a high, high level sport trainer, a high level obedience trainer. You don't have to train tracking dogs. You don't have to very complex, difficult dog training behaviors. Don't need to be on your plate. If you are good with people and you get them on board and you know the basics, then you can help somebody with their dog, right? Yep, 100%. And so kind of knowing your niche too. Yeah, that's what I was gonna get into. And I know that we're about an hour, so I wanna cover just a couple more things with you. It's a great, great point that you were talking about. And that's what I recently started getting into as I'm evolving and people are asking me for advice on their career, which I feel a little, I don't know. I don't know how I feel about it because like I said, you just gotta do it. Just if you feel like, just put it out there. I mean, just do it. I mean, if you're doing a good job, then in a lot of people just aren't, not necessarily on the internet, just in general, like showing people and whatever. But I tell people to find, because the dog training industry is such a big bubble. And two things that I talk about a lot about primarily with my clients, my pet clients, because that's all I really do, is dog training is such a big bubble. And what happens most oftentimes, unfortunately for the dog, is when you bring your dog to a dog trainer and they're just a dog training company, say a franchise or something like that. And yeah, they do dog training, but they don't do a certain type of dog training. So if you need a behavior modification or if you're working with a dog that is just way out of your comfort zone. And I think oftentimes too, the comfort zone gets mixed up with levels of ability or importance. I think people think if they do basic obedience or they do puppy foundational training, that it's not as cool or not as good as behavior modification. And I'm like, what are you talking about? It's two different things. It's pasta over potatoes, man. You can do that. It's the important part. If more people were good at that, the behavior mod people would be out of work. Exactly. Exactly. So if you could get good basic training information to people from the beginning, puppy, the dog's starting out and understand behavior and all that stuff, and it was getting mass consumed, we'd have way fewer behavior problems. The stuff that winds up as emergency behavior mod problems are because somebody missed the boat. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. We talk, you know, there's a difference between raising a dog to prevent a problem and then dealing with a problem that's established in an older dog. They're very different sets of skills, right? So it's totally valuable, for sure. Yeah, it's 100%. So for a new dog trainer or somebody who, and I feel like the market, like we've talked about, it's very saturated. And I think that the turnover or the transfer from people loving dogs, I think there's a significant difference as you probably know as well and you talk about is a dog lover and a professional are like two different things. So what advice would you give? And this is something that my listeners are gonna benefit the most from. What advice would you give for somebody who is either looking to get into dog training or they're novice five years or less and they're trying to find their way of what they wanna do? What advice would you give that person? So one, and you have to learn if you don't to enjoy the day-to-day process. Dog training is a process-driven thing and good dog training is small, incremental, undramatic change, right, ultimately. It happens because you show up every day and it's boring, right? Well, it's not boring. There's lots of things that in there that are beautiful. There are little things that happen over time when you show up and you're consistent and you really learn how the process works, right? But you have to enjoy that day-to-day. Like if you're all about the end result, like then you're gonna be unhappy as a dog trainer because you spend a small amount of time there at the goal spot or okay, this dog's finished, it's good and you spend a lot of time in process. And so the day-to-day aspects of that, you have to like that, right? You have to like showing up, you have to like going through things in small steps. You have to like repetition, right? It's all about repetition and consistency and communication. So learn to like that part of it. Learn what it really is to do good dog training. So obviously learn your craft, right? And don't be in a hurry in the initial stages to get your business up and running. Like take your time with that. Like businesses built fast are usually built on an inadequate foundation. And people are gonna see through that and you're gonna alienate people because you're gonna wind up having, taking on clients and situations that you probably shouldn't if you move faster than you should have. So if you, and if you enjoy the process, then it doesn't matter that it takes you longer to get there and a business that's built slowly on experience and knowledge and somebody that really enjoys the day-to-day aspects of handling a dog and teaching people and watching people make breakthroughs with their dogs, you'll have a lasting business and you can make a really good living at dog training like you really can. But if you try to blast through that, do that quickly and if you overly romanticize what dog training is on its base level. Yes, you're spending a lot of times with dogs but it's the grind of animal husbandry that is taking care of them every day doing that thing. And so one I would say, expose yourself to as many good trainers as you possibly can. Join clubs, do any of that kind of stuff where you can put yourself around other trainers. You pick up a little stuff along the way. These days there's more educational material than ever available to people. Avail yourself of that, get out there, try that stuff and then do it. Like you said, you've got to get out there and do it every day. Like you got to put your hands on dogs, borrow your friends' dogs while you're trying to get to be like, hey, let me, like dog walking is a great way of getting into dog training. I know many dog trainers that came into it that way. That's your chance to put your hands on lots of dogs. And so while you're learning your craft, you're gonna need to find ways to be able to handle a lot of different dogs. Cause you training one dog, you got a dog, you did a good job, you're not a dog trainer yet. Like you get a good job with one dog. That doesn't mean you know the nuances and your next dog could be really different. And so as much as that process is possible, commit yourself to the journey of that. And if you like the journey, the day-to-day part, then you'll like dog training. You're one of those people solve problems to be done tomorrow and do things fast and look for quick fixes and that you're not gonna enjoy dog training as a career. It's not, it's not for you. And let your built, you had mentioned the term multiple times and you started this idea of kind of an organic move through the process. Get into it, experience it, try as many dogs as you can, expose yourself to as many different aspects of training as you possibly can. And something will start to speak to you. You'll find your groove. Like, hey, this really appeals to me. And some of the things that appeal to people, it takes longer to develop a reputation and get there. But you're doing something that really appeals to you, which makes it easier to put in the day-to-day time. If you're like, I know I really don't like working with this kind of the dog, but I should because it's my job, you're not gonna put in the time because you don't like going to work every day isn't fun at that point. So there's some aspect of that that you have to enjoy the day-to-day. And so find the part of dog training that appeals to you. Like I have a woman that took a lot of classes and she loves the puppy stuff, right? She loves early foundation work like crazy. And every good dog trainer would love to have a business where they like got people from the beginning and from the ground up. But she has realized that about herself. She said like, this is what I'm best at. This is what I really love. And it took her five years to get her business to the point where she had a second job, she was doing other stuff. It took her five years to get to the point where she had a business that was supporting her that was doing just that. But she did, she got really good at her niche and she had all these different creative classes for puppies because that was a sweet spot, right? And it takes time to develop that. And so don't be in too big a hurry. Yeah, no, that's great information. And one thing too for the listeners and if we end up putting this up on video form too is one very underestimated, very easy thing to get into to learn about dogs is doggy daycares. That's how I, that was my second step. I did dog walking and then I got into doggy daycares and I have a doggy daycare. And I just did a video on it yesterday and I tell people like if you really wanna know dogs and you really wanna watch them interact with each other and learn from each other and how they communicate, go spend a half, for me it was like a couple of years just with different dogs in and out, different pack dynamics on different days, just putting your hands on that many dogs and really watching them and studying them. I did a lot of stuff with Wolves too in Colorado. I did a lot of stuff with them, watching and studying and interacting with them. And that's one thing that people can do and I tell people all the time, like find a local daycare and do it for free. Just say, hey, I just, I'm trying to learn. You know, you don't even have to get paid. Just say, do you mind if I come in and do some part-time hours? You don't have to pay me. I just would like to, you know. Cause the most of doggy day, again, like what we talked about the glamour of the dog industry, most of doggy daycare is picking up poop, making sure dogs don't hump each other and fight. That's it. It's really just separating and, but if you watch and you learn, it's a great way for seven hours a day and just watching dogs when they get tired, when they get mad, when they get possessive, when they get jealous, when they get all of that. And it's great. That's the other thing. How do you feel about dog training certifications like online and the many levels of those? I understand them. Like I understand the goal for that. And mostly their value is as a marketing tool for the most part, so that you can tell people that you've been through some process. It's a little like going to college and they're going to school. It's the same thing. It basically says you jump some minimum level of hurdles. And so if somebody's trying to weed through trainers, you can say, hey, look, I've educated myself in some way, which might make someone that's sitting the fence about you decide to hire you in that case. But of course, they all have their own kind of agendas. And so I wouldn't want to tie myself to one specifically, right? Meaning I wouldn't want to say, oh, APDT or whatever their certifications are, I'm just tossing them out. They have an idea of what good dog training is. And so you're going to learn their part of it, right? And they're going to say you've done the minimum level, it's a little like titling dogs. And so it's a good stepping off point. It doesn't hurt you in any way, but don't box yourself in either. I mean, expose yourself to other methodologies and other training ideas. Get out there. And then for the people that are looking for trainers, don't just look at the certification and say that that says anything about the person's ability, because there are lots of people that get certifications, that go through schools and do those sorts of things that are not good at what they're doing in any way. So it's just a base level of things for people. And from a dog trainer's perspective, yeah, I think probably most people should go through some certification, because it'll help you a little bit to say you're doing your continuing education. Yeah, I get a lot of, I'm one of the ABC mentors, which is cool, because I have an opportunity to actually help people get their hands on dogs, where they're like, you can't go and flip through your book once a dog starts to try to bite you or whatever. I said you got to, but you're right. I do deal with some people that are just looking for something to do, because they're retired or they're financially stable in other aspects, and they just want to do it for fun, and I wouldn't let them walk a hermit crab of mine, because they don't know yet. And that's just because they don't know yet. So I just wanted to get your opinion on that. I think from a trainer perspective, it's fine. It's good. That's not going to hurt, right? I heard anything, and it might help you in certain circumstances, from somebody looking to purchase services, and there's other stuff you should look at. You would want to see, like for me, the gauge of someone's training ability is watching them with their own dogs. Yes. Yes. That's the proof is in the pudding. Like if I can watch you with your dog for 10 minutes and I'll know if you're doing good dog training or not doing good dog training. Exactly. Real quickly. And so there's other things that the person that's buying dog training should do to research the people that they're buying dog training from, besides just saying, oh, they got certified by X organization, right? Yeah. That's a bare minimum. You just want to see what people want. I think it comes down to, as the time goes on, like you said, not only in the marketing standpoint from the dog trainer, but companies are just like, hey, we're going to start certifying dogs because the dog industry is getting big, and there's money to be made. And I think it's just like, read this book, read that book, okay, you're good. I had somebody ask me the other day about, what type of certifications? I said, well, I don't really have any, but I help certify other dog trainers. I said, but I don't have one. I said, it's kind of an awkward thing, but because of my experience and my work I've done before, I've been able to do things like that for different colleges, and it's a weird thing. I think it's frustrating for new trainers too because they're, do I spend all, and I tell people like, don't, if you're really like pinched on money, go work for somebody for free. Just say, hey, I'm new, I want to help out. Can I watch? Can I shadow? Can I, I think that's the best thing to do. Yeah, certainly as long as you connect yourself to the right person and they're willing to. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Be careful about shadow, but like aside from that, and I think like the continued and the continuing education aspect of it's really good. Yeah, it's hard, yeah. Anything that encourages trainers that already have businesses and things like that to continue to grow, a good thing. And so some of the organizations that certify require continuing it a certain number of hours, and you can get checked off in a lot of ways. You can go to a certain seminar that somebody's giving or, and you can get checked off. I think pushing people to continue to better themselves is a good aspect of that. 100%. If you want to maintain that certification, you're going to at least have to go sit in front of some different trainers, a certain number of hours a year, which is good for everybody. Everyone should be doing that. And the people that are serious about training are always checking out people and watching what people are doing, and they're trying their best to expose themselves to new ideas all the time. But it sort of forces somebody that might be reluctant into continuing their education. Yeah, that's why I was so bummed. We were going to come out, me and actually one of my trainers signed up for your E-caller. I know, I know. We're going to do them again. And I'm about to probably do one on Zoom. So. Yes, I'm down. Yeah, we're about to run one there. So, yeah. I'm totally down. Because I was so bummed because that's it, man. It's hard. It's hard sometimes when you're, like, especially, you know, like, I'm so passionate. I want to help, help, help, help, teach, teach, teach. Give, give, give, give, give, give. And I'm like, but I need to also make sure my knives are sharp, too. I need to make sure that I'm not getting stagnant or I'm not, um, not being a sponge anymore. And I'm trying, that's why I'll just go into daycare. I'll just, literally, like, at least I can go into daycare and watch dogs and, oh, that's interesting. And, and take, pull, pull things from dogs because ultimately they're the masters at teaching. You described something that's hard for anybody once they get successful, too. You're busy. And so you tend to, like, get insular. You're in your world. It's tough. And your, your time is full. And so, getting, continuing your personal growth is always hard. All industries, it's the same thing for no matter what it is. Like you get good, you get busy and now your personal growth takes a backseat. Exactly. 100%. And that's it. It doesn't mean that you're not giving people a good product, but, you know. Yeah. It's tough. And that's why, like, we were, I was so stoked to come out and hang out with, we were gonna hang out with Forrest a couple of days before and, uh, then, but we'll, we'll do, we'll, we'll have, we'll have an opportunity again. Yeah, absolutely. Eventually we'll be back to something approaching. Yeah. And then we'll, we'll wrap it up by, um, but yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll catch up again that because that was, that was something that we were all looking forward to. But, um, one thing before I forget to is, um, the place I think you referred us to, I don't know, I think it was you because you, you live there is the, um, the like, uh, there's like a, it's like a village of places. It's like a brewery and a winery and, um, Yeah. The, the Barlow and Sebastian. Yes. That, we went there and it changed. I was, I've been wanting to go back there for years. I'm just like that, that was like a little, it was like a movie set almost where you're walking and it's got all the lights and there's different. Just every, every business is different and it was so cool and my girlfriend and I just, we sat down and we had a beer here and wine here and you know, being in California. It was, it was, it was perfect. So anyway, so that was really, really cool. It's still there. It's not fully right now. So wait till this is all over and then come back out. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to, um, as, as of everybody else too, you know, once things start to open up, it's going to be in the floodgate. So, um, I definitely want to get out to, to California again and do some stuff. But, um, so why don't you just tell people where they can, where they can find you and how they can see the stuff that you're doing and interact with you on. So you have the Instagram and. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I, I am much less social media savvy than you, but we, we definitely have a, it's the Michael Ellis school for dog trainers. We have a Facebook page. We have an Instagram, uh, and then our website. So it's Michael Ellis school.com. And so, um, all those things are, uh, about to get super busy because we're, we're launching a new website and a lot of the online options, the distance learning options are getting launched here and then over the next two months. So that's awesome. So there would be a bunch of stuff happening there. So yeah. I remember, I remember you were developing when I, I took all those pictures last time I was there. Yeah. Great. And I remember you developing your website then. So that's cool. I'm glad you're, uh, getting rolling with that. Cool. Well, again, man, it was a pleasure, absolute pleasure to talk to you, man. Yeah. And when, when, uh, whenever this is overall, uh, hopefully be able to come out and we can take a rain check and come out and train some dogs and have some wine and have a good time. That'd be lovely. Cool. Thanks, Tom. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks, Michael. All right. Take care. Bye. I literally can't film anything outside today. It is so windy, but anyway, thank you guys so much for watching, listening. This is going to go live on my podcast tomorrow. So if you want to listen to this in audio format, all you have to do is head over to my podcast. I appreciate you guys watching. Michael, thanks for hopping on. I will talk to you guys next time. Peace.