 Welcome back to the breakfast. Our first major conversation this morning is of course going to be back to Kaduna State, where we're once again speaking about school abductions, but not just in Kaduna, but across Northern Nigeria. We're speaking this morning with a security expert, Mr. Yahoosa Getzu. Thanks for joining us. Good morning to you, sir. Thank you for having me. Good morning. All right. So it's one more abduction that we're speaking about now. We've seen videos of parents crying and asking that state government takes action. We've also heard that some of them were released, but this doesn't seem or it doesn't seem like it will be the last, of course, following from where we're coming from and the government's reaction every single time. What do you think the Nigerian security structure might have completely lacked that has led to these abductions continuing to happen? Well, there are many aspects for many response to that. We need to look at a different number of points. One, the community and the security architecture of Nigeria is not community driven in any way. The relationship between the security formations and the community, especially the civil society relations and the other community formations at the lower level and the interaction is more or less the relationship between the local parts or rather between the local parts. So until and unless the government is ready, change the attitude, change the orientation and take it back to a kind of community driven community driven strategy, community driven approach. Whoever, community and the school formations will work together and then wipe out to them, to at least to the minimum barriers level, the corruption and the kind of act, to all the kind of even the security personnel will engage. One of the basic issues is the fact that those who have been engaged and recruited as security personnel are not interested in the job. They don't have action for the job. They are political facts and some of them are just the errant voice of some of these politicians, right? If you look at the employment and recruitment in the security system in the last 27 to 30 years, it hasn't been aligned with partial, it hasn't been aligned with patriotism. It hasn't been aligned with the kind of patriotic interests. Most of the highest proportions that were recruited were based on sentiments, based on regional rivalry and based on some other things. So this is one of the key reasons why we're having this problem today. Those who are facing our security personnel are those who are out to die. They are working for them because if you look at Boko Haram, if you look at the bandits, if you look at the kidnappers, they are always out to die. They don't care. So but the security personnel in many instances where they are being chased by the security, by the bandits, the Boko Haram, the ISWAP, the ASAM, whatever you may call them, who see them dropping their phone and running away. So if they have partial for the job, they will run away. If they have partial, if the patrol system is there, they will run away. And also the leadership. The leadership need to be checked. The leadership of all the security for information. I just understand that there is no a kind of a synchronization and synergy and partnership, a practical partnership between the school information. And the message the government is sending, especially the government, he sent a very negative message to the parents, one by removing his child from his school. If you know there is a problem in that school, the government will, what the government will have done was to find the best way of squaring that school and making sure that it created a really, really environment that will make the students study, including the child of the governor. Not just to remove his child and tell the whole world that he is removing his child because his child is being threatened. So if your child is being threatened, you are removing. That means you are compromising and you are telling, you are exposing your inability, you are exposing it in your accountability. And you are exposing yourself that you are no longer the two students also. You are only the two students also of your own house. And if you look at the reaction from the parents when the commissioner of internal affairs, a student of internal affairs of Laguna State, when they are at the special school where the children were certainly abducted. Look at the reaction. The parents lost the confidence of the government. The parents lost the confidence of the students. So it is now sending a message that the engagement system in Northern Nigeria is going to deteriorate much even despite what you have. You don't have enough teachers. You don't have a home made. You don't have classes. A lot of things. So now involve the issue of life and death, which is the inability of the government to secure the schools. So the interaction between the security formations and the communities is very, very poor. And the government and the setup. Now like I mentioned earlier yesterday, we have four tiers of government, non-local three tiers of government. However, you have federal government, you have the state government, and you have another strong government that hasn't been formalized, which is the criminal, that is an overhaul, that is the issue, that is the kidnappers, that is the money, that is the local language being used by many political analysts, which I have a lot of questions on, which is the hard side. Because as far as my investigation, I am as an expert for security intelligence and investigation. I have been to all the local governments and political whites in the United Kingdom, the state, and all the other cities of the Nigeria, and I have been to all the lots and crimes of most Africa, which I believe and what I see in the fact that these criminals are known, and the government have already found that they know their locations, they know where they are, they know who is the person in there. So I don't know, do we really have a sovereign state? Do we really believe in Nigeria? Do we really believe in the San Nigerian sovereignty? And if we believe, what federal government is doing? I've got the state government with me. Now you have the weakest system of governance at the lower level, which is the local government, which you can unconfidently say the local government administration is no longer in existence, looking at how they are being dealt. So and this security activity is supposed to be bottom-top approach, not top-bottom approach. So until and unless the government, and until and unless everybody in Nigeria is ready to work together as a team, then we can be able to face the positive state, to understand the local cost analysis, and then develop an action plan, and at the same time change the orientation of our so-called student past life. Because most of the senior military officers, the senior DSS officers, the senior civil defense officers, immigration, they are all struggling to lift themselves up. If they are all struggling to earn money, they are not struggling to see that they deliver what is expected from them. So these are the issues, and nobody is checking that. Nobody is checking that. Government is not changing. So as far as the corruption is playing a big role, and this insecurity will continue as far as we didn't change the state, and as far as we didn't change the approach to community-driven approach. Okay, Mr. Getzo. Our past life doesn't have gadgets, we don't have enough past life. I have been given a suggestion to the government that if we can engage 40, if the government can make a pronouncement, especially in the front, local governments and states, at all polling units, you can mobilize, agile, attractive, and committed your views between the age of 18 and 22 or 18 and 24. You can have 40 in each political polling unit. So if you have 40 in a political one that have 10 polling units, you will have 400. And if you have 400 in a local government that have 10 political ones, you will have 4,000. These, you can just remote them in the island, in the DSS, in the civil defense, in the customs, because none of the security system, none of the security agencies that have adequate and agile past life. And then we need to employ the use of modern gadgets. Most of the gadgets, the armaments that our security personnel are carrying, they are all. And at the same time, the bodies are coming out in hundreds, who's two or three on the same bike. And at the same time, they are carrying 30 to 20 to 40 wherever you are military, maybe 20 or maybe 30 trucks and so on. And I challenge the Governor Eropai, a day before yesterday, before the vessel happened, he went to Manali area to demolish, to face an armed public community, Manali community area, where he went to almost 14 trucks of security past life. So if you have that capacity, if you can mobilize that, if you have that resources, why can't you secure Katia that is less than 22 to 50 kilometers from Azuna? Why can't you secure Azaria that is less than 70 to 60 kilometers? Why can't you secure a Laguna Laguna that is 10 to 200 kilometers? And the range between Laguna and the Jerry, which is still within the government, is around 73 to 100 kilometers. So what government is doing there? You would have been proclaiming that you have put the security orders on the road, on the road. But we have been checking, nothing is there, nobody is there. There is no ordinary door in the name of security between Laguna and Africa. And likewise, if you look at the Laguna's area, the same thing, Laguna, Katia and others. So we government need to explain, expedient action. I need to sit up from, they need to sit up from their so far before things get out of hand, even though we can even vividly say that I think I've gotten out of hand because government is not serious. There is no commitment. There is no political commitment. There is no administrative will. And there will be all laws discussed for making policemen that the security is touching. Mr. Getzo, you've mentioned a lot of key points, about 10 of them that I have noted. And I want us to begin to address these points on their own merits. The first thing you would mention, one of the first things you mentioned was that the people on the forefront of this war against insurgency and kidnappers lack the passion to execute their duties. But I wanted to also ask, is it really about passion? Because I've heard stories from ex-soldiers who say they're fighting Boko Ram in the forefront. And their own superiors actually shoot at them saying they're killing Boko Ram members too much. And that they're sent to the forefront without weapons or with weapons that are less sophisticated than the ones that the terrorists are holding. So how would you tie that, you know, situation to your last, one of your last points about the need for modern, sophisticated weapons in the country? Yeah, you know government have been probleming the government at the center that they have spent huge amount of money. The minister of finance sometimes told us that she has given around two trillion for the purchase of modern gadgets and modern equipment. At the same time, the National Community Advisor in a statement credited to him in an interview he conducted through the BBC House Act, he mentioned that a huge amount of money was given to the former military heads, that is more ethnic and others. But he didn't see the gadgets, he didn't see the money, he didn't see how the money was spent. So it means it is very clear that our security personnel don't have the confidence and passion to base these guys for so many reasons. And primarily the major reason that we can see is the fact that they don't have the modern gadgets, the sophisticated gadgets that they can face most of these guys. And you know, and I know from the reports and the information and the intelligence we are the military only chased trying to return attacks. The security personnel trying to return attacks. Why can't you go and chase these guys? Governments have been saying that they know where they are, they know their location. Even the Europeans in the recent interview conducted through the BBC, English work, many responded in the apprehension of an anarchist. You mentioned, like Mohammed has been mentioning, the minister of defense has been saying that they know where these guys are. So if you know where these guys are, why can't you provide the same sophisticated hours so that they can be able to pace them and do their thing? Okay, well, talk a little bit more about that because even Sheikh Ahmad Gumi had in a statement said that, you know, whenever he goes to meet with these bandits, that he doesn't go alone. He goes with government representatives. It goes with, you know, representatives from the security agencies and all of that. So what does that really say if they know who these people are and they know where they are, but they fail to apprehend them, they fail to arrest them? When people say this is state sponsored terrorism, is it possible that they might be right? Yes, absolutely. That is a justification because if Gumi and others are meeting these guys directly and indirectly, and they are going with the security personnel, and they have been saying it, most of the government's members are from Kassana, from Sokoto, from Delhi, from Napara, and many other environment, they know the leadership of these criminals, and they are talking and speaking with them. And in some instances, they are even providing them with some sort of registered support because I remember during the passing of Ramadan, some of them were provided with additional food and additional money as a Ramadan gift. So why would that happen? So if this is happening, and whenever the children, when the children were for Jangebi were apprehended, the children of Khaqara were apprehended, how does government relate with them? And which channel have they used? For me, as far as I'm concerned, Dr. Ahmad Gumi is doing a good job. Government could have used his, you could have used him and others to have access to these guys and find a way of either using the stick and carrot, because the stick and carrot must be the best strategy to use in dealing with this question. But now, government is only make politicizing the system by making press statements. We always hear the press statement or messages through Garbashu through Adesina. Nigerians did not vote for Adesina or Garbashu, women who had it to talk. He need to address Nigeria and he need to work out from his slumber. He need to work out from his slumber, because really the situation is getting out of hand and is deteriorating. And the government is justifying to us that they know the sponsors and they are afraid to pay the sponsors. So innocent are being killed while the elites and the government officials, the colonels, the majors, the CPs, the IGs, the DIGs and so on. And the directors are using aeroplane at the same time using the train, while the government is being killed every now and then. Even day before yesterday, there is one community that they went in in Katsunasti, which is yet to be pronounced, but we have the information and they killed many and they bombed the whole town. And these people moved through a number of 200, 300 motorcycles. The question I keep asking, where are they getting the fuel? Is there any fueling stations in any of the forests? I know all forests in West Africa. I know all hard to reach terrain in West Africa. I know all hard to reach passages around where hatchmen, fulani, or whatever you call them. And even in the forest, it's not only fulani. I have been saying there are others who are living there. So the government that used to send a airstrike and whatever, many times they are killing the innocent because they are not reaching the right people. So actually, this is a justification that there is a defined interest either from the government or from the elements within the government that are interested in what is happening and that are interested and they don't even care about the number of lives and properties being lost. Mr. Katsunasti, based on your experience as a security official, a security expert, would you advise parents to be taking their kids to school in northern Nigeria in this time? Well, absolutely. Even day before yesterday, I took back my children to a public government school. So we cannot stop taking our children to the school. But at the same time, the Parent Teachers Association and civil society organizations as well as the community leaders of those given locations where the school are, they need to sit up from their slumber and have an organized structure like what we have in the schools where our children are. I was able to provide the Parent Teachers Association a guidance on how to work about it and we let it ourselves. Since government is not capable of managing the structure of our schools, we cannot keep our children home because that is the promotion of illiteracy, which will endanger the future of the children and will endanger the future of the region and not the region for the inner country at last. So the government should be encouraged to take their children to school. But at the same time, the Parent Teachers Association and the community leaders and religious leaders and other community-based formations, especially the civil defense and other organized non-formal security system at the local level, should organize something because if the schools are killed, if the morale of the parents are killed for not to send their children to the schools, then it will have serious effect and impact on the future of development because any of any community that doesn't have education, that community will not have development. Okay, Mr. Ghetto, we do understand your points. They are valid. If the aim of these terrorists and kidnappers is basically to put an end to education, then we cannot understand your own point of view to say we're going to counter that by making sure our students still stay in schools. But how about teachers in your work around the North? Have you been able to speak to teachers regarding the morale? Do teachers still show up for class as they would before all these kidnappings became the norm? And also, are you not afraid, you know, that your kids might be kidnapped one of these days? Well, yes, of course, there is that fear, but we just have to have the confidence. The reason why the bandits and the criminals are chasing the government and the security is the fact that, like I mentioned, there is missing link, which is patrolling. If the security personnel are patrolling and have the passion for their job, they will not be run away from these covered criminals. So what we are doing, like I said, we are making serious sensitization and community mobilization at the lower level in all levels, in all the states. Sometime about seven weeks, I went out for an investigation to eight states of Northern Nigeria, that is in part of Northwest and part of Northeast, and I selected the front 41 local governments. And each of these local governments, which I went, I normally check on all the schools, the local education authorities, the traditional authorities, and the local formation, the local security formations, that is the non-government, which is the vigilante, and we try to encourage them and guide them and provide them with some insights, based on our knowledge, based on my knowledge. And at the same time, each of the states before I get out of the state, I also try to reach the head of security personnel, sometimes the military personnel, sometimes the DSS, the police, and provide them a feedback. And at the same time, I want to stay to universal basic education and also contact them, and also contact the parent teachers association leadership at the state and the local government, and the local education secretaries and the local government, and at the same time, the civil defense co-commandants, and give them feedback and provide them with some insights for how they can remobilize the community, since government inefficiency and ineffectiveness has been exposed. So we need to do something, and we need to be committed, and we need to be serious. And I ask each and every one of us, within the Northern region and all part of the country, to sit on with our responsibility and develop a strategy for which we can secure ourselves, our schools, and our children. It is very clear that our security personnel are only struggling to secure themselves. We don't have enough personnel to do the job. We don't have equipment to do the job. They don't have passion to do the job. They don't have encouragement and motivation from the government to do the job. So we cannot sit and allow the covered criminals to continue to kill us and vandalize our system of education. We have to sit up to our responsibility, educating our children is our responsibility. Yes, of course, government have the responsibility to provide security for life and property, and at the same time, provide a good and squared environment that our children will learn, will use for learning purposes. But if they are not ready and they are not interested to do that, and they don't have passion, and they are focusing only on sending their children to public and private schools where they fear and provide whatever needed, then we, the larger population, that is the government, we have to continue, the government, we have to continue to mobilize ourselves and find a way forward because we cannot give our children electricity and we cannot continue to allow our schools to be killed. And these powers were ready to do whatever needed within our civil structure to make sure that we face them and we disarm them either through dialogue or through any other means. So there is ongoing steps and strategies for which we are locally trying to partner with the government. We have made the presentation to the directors of the SSS at the state and the national level for what we want as a strategy. So we hope they are ready to listen. If they are ready to listen, we have the community doing their approach expertise and we are ready to do the needful so that what is right will be done and will be achieved. I described it doesn't seem like they might be willing to listen to as much as you have to say, but I want us to look away from the security angle now, look at the political angle. From what you also had described, it seems like the people have accepted that the governments, the governors, both also in the Houses of Assembly, and it doesn't seem like a lot of these state governors are bothered much with regards to what's going on in the lives of the citizens and the electorate. How do you think that this affects what currently would you describe as the reaction of indigents and citizens in these communities towards their government? An election is coming very soon. Do the citizens understand the responsibility of government to protect them? Because it doesn't seem like they do when there is voting. Well, thank you very much for asking this question. As far as I'm concerned is that the fact that the northern governors or the Nigerian governors are not sincere, they are not honest, they are not focused, they don't have passion for who elected them, they don't have interest on the future of this country, they don't have interest on any development, they don't have interest in the situation at hand. They are only busy discussing their political future. And of course there is a lack of poverty, there is a poverty and the hardship that was intentionally created so that they can divert the attention of the government in struggling to get what he or she would eat. That is the reason why the electorate are still blind and I'm sure confident looking at how the better parents reacted when the commissioner of the internal security and internal home affairs and the security of Kharuna State came to them to see the chest of him away. And many of these governments, there are local government allocations where they cannot go. Today that I'm talking to you, they know about it. So as far as I'm concerned, we the experts as well as the other people that have passion for the country, we should not relent our effort to continue to sensitize and mobilize the common common man at the local societies so that they can understand the implication of re-electing of these guys and their errant classics. Because if you look at them, there is no difference between APC and PDE. There is no difference between Afghan PDE and APC. We are only running one political system because it's only one cycle. So as far as I'm concerned, the Nigerian governments are not serious, they are not honest, they are not sincere and they are not ready for security and safety issues of this country and they are so myopic in their thinking. And most of them, they lack capability and ability to even understand what is on their decks. Otherwise, they will have dealt with this situation because if you see that some of these criminals are even giving an ultimately to state governors and even to sovereign states, to Nigerian sovereign states, and there are small reactions. As far as I'm concerned, by the time one of them give ultimate, ultimate, especially the one that a kidnap the children of a forestry school in Kaguna and that of Greenfield University, as they provide in the game, ultimate room. As far as I'm concerned, if we have sincere and security and honest and sovereign Nigerian states that could have been arrested and killed, even in the process of arresting and killing him, we can sacrifice all the children that was kidnapped that time. But since you don't have a serious government, you don't have a government that have interest about the nation's future, you don't have government that have interest about building a future development, they are only focusing on what matters to them. That is why we are getting it where we are getting and that is why we are having these issues and that is why Nigeria is a country of uncertainty. You only have a geographical location called Nigeria, but no Nigeria, we in Nigeria, both the Northeast, Northwest, Northwest, South, South, Southeast, we don't believe in the country called Nigeria. Well, I'm not sure about the territorial integrity, geographical integrity that is called Nigeria, but we don't believe in ourselves. So we need to go back to the referendum. We need to go back to all the discussions that we've had before, that is during the good luck Jonathan and other time, but this time should be nominated by the communities not by the government. Those who are nominated to come for national comfort were nominated by the government, so they are not the serious people. So if the government is serious, should allow the communities to nominate who are serious about themselves, who have the passion for their communities, come on board and sit down and discuss and then we can be able to die enough if Nigeria will remain a country of uncertainty. If otherwise, everybody can find his way. Thank you. Alright, I'm not sure about sacrificing any of the students, like you mentioned. A lot of parents wouldn't agree with that. I think- I think I'm trying to sub-nation it in this interview. Yes, he did, but he also had a lot of people disagree with him completely. I don't think you would also like your kids to be sacrificed. I'm not comprehending or accepting it, but as a strategist, if you have a kind of, you know why these guys are, government would have used whatever strategy it can use in saving the children's lives to allow many of their parents who have sold their houses, their residential, residential houses and properties for them to spare their children, spending more than 100 million Naira and so on. Absolutely, but now you're a security expert and you've worked in Northern Nigeria for many years, I believe. One thing that a lot of Nigerians are not very clear on is who exactly are these kidnappers and who are these bandits? Are they people who are from the same communities that they attack? Are they foreigners? Are they mercenaries? Who exactly are they? And how do they- My knowledge, my practical knowledge, practical, not theoretical or otherwise. Practical, 99.9% of these criminals, bandits in Northern Nigeria are in the citizens of Nigeria. There are very few armed traders and armed importers and those who are exporting money for them that are foreigners. This can be justified by the number of those who are apprehended if you look at the percentage of the population. And by our knowledge for those who submitted their arms to the security formations at the state of Sopoto, the state of Kasana, the state of Zafara, the state of Kano and many other locations. So, as far as the dependent bandits, as far as I'm concerned and as far as every Northern citizen concerned, if he want to be optimistic, I'm telling you that I have been to this forest several times and I know who they are. And like government keeps saying they know where they are, our traditional leaders at each level, they know where these guys are and they know them and they can be apprehended. If someone led a complaint to the Divisional Police Officer, for some who are committing an offense for him in a remotest part of any local government, that if you are used to sending his rank and file or other personnel to go and pick that person for homework action, so why the Divisional Police Officers are not doing their work? Why the local security officers are not doing their work? Why the commanding officers of the Supreme Defense are not doing their work? Why is our immigration? Why are they not coordinating themselves, working with one heads that the village heads and the other community leaders like the AMAs and the district heads? We all know ourselves and the problem is internal. The case of Northwest, the case of North Central, even though it may be some slightly different from that of what is available in the North East. There are a lot of foreigners in the case of North East, but in North West and North Central, 99.9% as I said, and I'm practically saying it and I have my justification and they are citizens of Nigeria, they are not innocent. But most of those who provide AMAs and import AMAs and export money for them, which nobody collected from the, what do you call it, from the... So they are mostly foreigners. Okay, so it seems then that there's a bit of a communication gap because we've heard statements from the presidency that these bandits are foreigners, but then I wonder what's been a foreigner... I've been destructing blacks. I've been destructing blacks and I have justification and those governors of Kasena, the governors of where things are happening will continue to dispute the government. But then really... They are indigenous, they are not indigenous. So Mr. Getzo, so then what... There are few foreigners that came or are trading mostly. Okay, but what then does their nationality have to do with the fight against terrorism? Is the duty of Nigeria's army not even to protect us against external threats? So even if they claim they're foreigners, I mean I don't see what stops Nigerian military from even attacking them. But moving on now, earlier you mentioned that local governments in Nigeria is not functioning. And Amelie the seer in February, Ahmed Lamar had mentioned the lack... Yeah, I think one of the challenges we have is inability of the government to protect its sovereign geographical integrity. Okay, okay, we'll try to... That's it, poor collaboration and we think the airports need to revisit and the African Union charter needs to be revisited and some of these issues need to be done accordingly. And there is a lot of poverty and then... We apologize for that, hopefully we can get clear audio from Mr. Getzo. So this really has been a very revealing conversations, something he says contradicts what we've heard from the presidency, especially about the nationality of these people who are bandits, kidnappers and criminals. They consistently say they're foreigners, but really like I asked, what really have their nationality got to do with Nigeria's capacity to basically neutralize them? It's even worse if they're foreigners. Exactly, that shouldn't get in the way of apprehending them. Listen, it's worse, it means that you have for if the government says they're foreigners, you know, it's a way of trying to reduce its responsibility. I don't think the government understand that that makes it worse because it means that you have foreigners in your country killing your citizens. And that really is the duty of the army to protect us from external threats. But I think it's also, I think from what we've seen over the years, you know... The document presented by the government as a research, research based evidence that these guys are foreigners, is there any statistical analysis? Is there any evidence based presented in what local government, by local government? Mr. Geto, hold on. If you can hear us kindly, hold on. I think we and a lot of us, including our viewers also would agree that a lot of these people, like you said, are Nigerians. They're not foreigners per se, but I really want to get as much as possible off you because of the work that you do and how much research you've done and you've carried out practically. I want us to understand better what is the chain like with regards to these events? Is this all about the money? These persons who have continued to kill and maim and kidnap Nigerian citizens for many, many years, is this just about the financial gain? Or are we still at a place where we're still fighting Western education, which was the original story behind Boko Haram? Where exactly are we? You mentioned people who were foreigners, you know, up in this space who helped them with weapons training and with, you know, moving cash in and out of Nigeria. So is this still a money issue? Are these people who are simply making money off crime in Nigeria? Or is this still terrorism? It can be both. It can be both. In the case of North East, yes, of course, it's the issue of Boko Haram or Boko of the Western education inspired against Western education, but it has another political kind of something at the back of it. But in the case of North West and North Central, there's more or less an ethnic misunderstanding and a long trend of ethnic and tribal conflict that has been happening, which was taken care and even introduced by the, what do you call it? We apologize for that. Hopefully we can get him back on track again. So finally, I hope that when we wrap up, we're able to also bring in the role of the local government into all this. He had mentioned earlier during the course of our conversation that the approach to security should be a bottom top one, not one where the only emphasis is on the federal government, the state government, what are the local governments doing, especially in terms of, you know, intelligence gathering and, you know, collaborating with the security agencies on ground. That really needs to be done because when these incidents occur, they occur in a particular town, a particular village in a local government area. So do you want to tell me that the local government architecture in that state have no idea what exactly is going on in this state? So that local government, you know, approach the fact that we need, you know, to tackle this from the grassroots. Majority of these situations, majority of these, you know, kidnap is happening in the grassroots. They're not happening in Lagos. They're not happening in urban cities. So what's really are the local governments doing? Ahmed Lawan, like I mentioned earlier in February, had bemoaned the lack of elected local government councils in some states in the north. So do we really have a functioning local government in Nigeria? What exactly are their duties? There's also the issue of corruption, how, you know, there have been analysis about how state governments just use, you know, those local governments as a means to just siphon money. So we need to get to the bottom of these issues in those local government areas. What really are the roles of the elected persons in local government? Would they claim ignorance that they do not know what's happening in their local? Do you know how small a local government is? That's to ensure effective administration of a particular area. So there's a local government chairman and all his, you know, officials want to say they have no idea, like they're clueless as to what's happening in their local government. I think it's already been established that from local to state to traditional levels, they are aware of all these people and what exactly is going on. You know, it's just a lack of will to actually take action that is lacking here. So it's not ignorance, they are aware. And that's also why I wanted to reason to ask, you know, if these people are people from the communities, not their foreigners. So if they are from the communities that people know them, they know who they are. They have discussions with them with the Sheikh Gumi with, you know, with the state governors and the like. So they are aware. It's not ignorance. But there's also the part where the local government, you know, themselves don't have any control over security in particular. What they can instead do is, you know, the intelligence gathering that they can, you know, offer. But it's also, you know, in the same country where we have agreed and seen that state governments have, you know, practically disabled the powers of the local government chairman, counselors and the likes basically almost only exist as political positions and not, you know, as actual positions where they have power and they have authority. We've for a very, very long time spoken about local government funds being sent to the local government. And, you know, I guess earlier, I am dim like I've mentioned about what, how funds get to the local government, what exactly they're doing with it. Why didn't state governors mention it in their last, in the southern governors mentioned in their meeting that they had. But of course, they won't bring that up because they know that they are guilty of basically disabling the strength and the powers of the local government chairman at the local government level. So there is also that local governments basically, a local government chairman basically are seeming like political appointments for persons who pave the way for the government or the state governor at that time to have his way with whatever funds come into the local government. And that's what it generally seems like. So, yes, they have a huge role to play with, you know, with regard to security, with intelligence gathering, with being able to handle exactly what happens in their local government. They allegedly or supposedly receive hundreds of millions of Nair every month at local government allocation. That's, you know, we still don't know what I guess to them or go straight to the state governor and then they get their, you know, their, you know, percentage of it to pay salaries and do whatever they want to do with the rest of it. So, I blame them, but at the same time I don't blame them. I think we and they at the state level, the governors know what exactly the challenge is with the local government. She did not be fighting for local government autonomy because that's also a part of the there is supposedly local government autonomy. It's just not, you know, it's just not in practice. Okay, I just hope that we understand the impact of these abductions in the North. If I was born in the North and I was abducted when I was a child and my parents decided to pull me out of school, I don't think I would attain the level of education that I have now. I wonder what my future would look like alternatively if I were in the North and I'd been a victim of the situation, the circumstances of the failure of government to protect me. So it's, it's terrible to see that people who could be change makers in our country, their future has been changed by the lack of security. There's also the issue of the role of migration. Lots of these people would run to places like Lagos. They would continue to overpopulate this place. They will continue to be a burden on the facilities in the state. You'll see IDP camps in Nigeria that are in terrible shape continue to be, continue to be over flooded. So the issue of displacements, refugee crisis, they will continue to run to other countries. So it's just a big mess. And I just hope we can do something about it. Many kids are still in captivity, the 140 that we heard in Kaduna State a few days ago. Also we saw how parents protested. The police are saying that they rescued about 26 of them, but the parents said no, that their children actually ran away and escaped. So there's still that issue of, you know, what exactly is the truth regarding all of this. But I hope that, you know, there just is a light at the end of this tunnel. I mean, that's, that's all we can have hope about, you know, whether you withdraw your kids from school or not or what the parents should do. So, you know, what damage would have done to you if you were a victim when you were younger? I don't think the current Nigerian administration cares much about education. I don't think that they value education as much as they should. Maybe we had times when, you know, previous governments, you know, maybe had invested more in education, had been more concerned about education and all of that. I don't think the current Nigerian government cares that much about education. And I meant, I made, you know, I was some analysis earlier about the expectations that we have with public office holders in Nigeria. When we put people in power, we never have a, this is where we are. This is where we would like to be in five years, we would like to be in 10 years. We never have those type of conversations. We simply just put people in power and they sit there for four to eight years and then at the end of those eight years, yeah, and reach themselves and at the end of those eight years, you know, we can never really look back and say, okay, this is where we, where we with regard sports, when you came into power in 1992, but this is where we are now. This is where we are with regard to education when you came into office in 2012, but this is where we are now. And this is, you know, the level of success that you've been able to achieve. So there's no, there's no standard. There's no basis, you know, for, for performance, you know, with regards to these persons that we put into power. If not, we should have a Minister of Education, you know, answering questions with regards, what really has Nigeria achieved with education in the last four to eight years? They will probably bring up the school feeding program, you know, and say some, some other nonsense like that. So there's, there's none of those conversations going on. And that's why people never held to account with the time that they spent in office, including the state governors, including the president, including local government chairman. And when you don't have and demand that level of accountability and progress with, you know, a person that you are paying salary with taxpayers money, then there really wouldn't be any improvement and education would never improve, nobody. The perspective you're coming from really all ties into, you know, the system of our politics in this country, where you have parties pay millions of Naira in nomination forms in campaign. Now they've increased campaign spending to 15 billion Naira for president and 5 billion Naira for governorship. So when people have to go and lobby and, you know, generate this huge amount of money to get into political positions, what do you think they would do when they get in there? So all these issues, you know, it's still all ties into politics. And, you know, we talked about the landmark ruling that Monde Urbani recorded regarding the jumbo pay and salaries for Nigerian lawmakers and political office holders and how the RMFC have to come in and reduce basically slash that salary. How can a senator or a lawmaker be ending millions and millions of Naira? So all these things, if these things are stripped and we have people earning, you know, basic, what should get them by, like every other Nigerian, maybe then we'll begin to see people who will run for political office based on the fact that they are interested in service, they care about the people and not because they want to enrich themselves. There's just a lot, you know, that we need to tackle. The question is, where do we begin? Let's wrap it up here. I think we should begin with, you know, also fixing, you know, electoral process, you know, and you know, the way that people get into office. Anyway, it's been a very tense Wednesday morning. Thank you very much for being a part of these conversations. If you missed out on any of it, remember you can send or you can watch a catch up on any of these discussions on our YouTube and the Facebook and Instagram platforms, all at Plus TV Africa. I am Osao Guy of Mawang. And I am Annette Felix, urging you to have a warm Wednesday morning.