 John man, it's been a while. It has been a while. Yeah, I don't even know how long actually the reason you're on the show right now is The TTC. Yes That's where I saw you last. I know and I took me a while to recognize you I'm like who the fuck is this guy coming up to me because I'm really like off-standish with people. I don't know And I was like Public transit you kind of have to you know I mean cuz it's crazy motherfuckers on the subway man I know and you were like in thought and I was on the phone I'm yeah, this off man. I feel like you're actually maybe coming around here. Yeah, I was liking here I was like wait a minute. This is what he was setting up exactly exactly So yeah, man, it's been a minute man. What's been new? Oh? Trying to enjoy summer mm-hmm Working, you know biking a lot really exploring the city It's my third year here like the very beginning of my third year in the city and I still Have like I go out of my bike every weekend and I'm like I've never seen this whole neighborhood before which is cool Yeah, there's a lot Toronto in the summertime. It's awesome a plus-plus awesome like People don't understand what we have here in the summer. Yeah, but then winter rolls around and it doesn't end Six months last year. Maybe I'm getting older. I don't know what it is. I'm only 34 young the last winter felt like I had enough just got to go somewhere else. Yeah, you get that feeling actually I'm thinking about this here the wifey and I are thinking point in Spain really nice. Yeah, I've only been there in the summer Yeah, well, it's not like summer summer like we'll be in the south like Seville Malaga. Nice. It's like 20 20 beats minus five and no son. Yeah, yeah, it was like spring You know I mean right and then you see coastal city like aesthetically speaking. It's nice. Yeah, exactly So what new kind of projects you've been working on? I've been actually really really busy with clients. I started client work like a year and a half ago Like really really reluctantly. I just like people emailing and asking and over and no, no, no, no Finally took on one and now it's gone into like an agency quote-unquote sort of model That's been keeping me really busy. So what are they coming to see you for what's kind of the major problem? They're having Their business they have like a good my client seemed to have a good business off line and They have a website, but they did that that's it and so they're like lost beyond that and so it's They know about this sort of dream of like people finding you and you getting business without like somebody looking up in the yellow pages locally and so They I guess just listen to the podcast enough times and finally just like hey man Can you help with this and so and now it's branched off more even to just like pretty much just like Hardcore SEO in the sense because just because over the year and a half I've kind of like okay I don't want to work with those kind of clients those kind of clients those kind of clients and then it's like Let's go to these ones and see what works So yeah, got a small team working on it and it's good It's funny how like you don't expect things and it just kind of happens It's funny how you fight it for a really long time like I don't want to do that I don't want to do that. I want to build software again. I want to build soft I know cuz that's the discussion we had like a year ago because you're building up the software Yeah, I know and so I'm really really digging it though. It's just I Fought it for a long time, but now I'm not You can just see the cash flow from this to build your software exactly and so I'm just want to see where Yeah, see where it can take it That's kind of like once something starts to go a bit It's like I was how far can I push this in the next year? So but there's an interesting interesting thing that you said they found you through your podcast. Yes I don't think so my audience really knows the history of your podcast and how you got into it I think I think the story of you getting into it and the lessons you've learned the good the bad and the ugly I think people would really get a lot of value from that So why don't we kind of dive into that any discussed a process for that all right could do that yeah, so the podcast Was this month September like fifth or sixth and I believe it was five years ago Or it was six. I want to say five because six sounds ridiculous your way ahead of the curve. I guess so like Yeah, it was for for a lot of things and a lot of things a lot of benefits I got a lot of things I got to do Happened because yeah, there wasn't a lot of us right so I mean It could sort of spiral out of control really quickly in a good way And it's a lot harder to do that now without having that name behind you so I was just the the longer story of it is I was My family and I saw my daughter my wife and I we were traveling a lot at the time because I had worked and Got into software and that was like my whole goal just create software so we can travel and have fun right well my daughter was young and stuff and so we were doing that and At the trail end of a two-month trip to Asia we ended up in the Philippines at a small mastermind 20 people and When it came down to like sitting down at the actual mastermind and like so what's your problem John? What's going on? It's like oh my problem is I wanted to be able to sit on the beach and work and just like travel and do stuff and I can do that. I've been doing that now for a year and a half or so I'm just really fucking bored now. I just just like I just gotta be something else to this right and I'm like really behind the scenes There's no I'm doing the marketing the selling And sort of like coming up with an idea to create it But I'm beyond that nobody knows who I am nobody and not that I wanted to be known But I was like I do want to come out from behind it a little bit And so sitting at the same table was John Lee Dumas and Pat Flynn Who had both started podcasts a year to two years before that and it already taken off and they were Like John you got to start a podcast and I was like no not at all I hate the sound of my voice and I've never interviewed anybody in my life. So I'm absolutely not doing that So then we got home like a month later or something and sitting at our doorstep was this big box and it was podcasting gear Pat had sent it to us and like start the podcast So I'd still didn't for like two to three months and then I was like Screw it. I'm gonna start a podcast. I'm gonna interview 30 people talk about business But I'm gonna do it like not from a tactics perspective because that's what was happening Everybody's talking tactics how to do things which is really cool. It needs to be but I was like I Love to talk about why people do things like why do you? Because it really sucks a lot of times building stuff right and having it having it fail having it just whatever just taking that route is In a lot of ways it doesn't make any sense. I couldn't imagine doing anything else But it's it's a lot more difficult. So I love that conversation around the mindset of that and so I was like, all right cool, I'm gonna interview 30 people over the summer and That's it. I'm just gonna put it out and then I'm gonna just keep in the software thing. It'll be fun No big deal, right? I just like instantly I'm like, I know the 30 people I want to talk to and so I did it I recorded 22 of them or something before I even launched in September 5th and then I Mean I knew how to launch something to a certain degree I was in a market that wasn't super busy at the time and then it was like the first four weeks I'd like 2,000 downloads or something at 2,500 downloads. I'm like, oh, wow, that's pretty cool Then the next month it was like 35,000 downloads. I was like, oh, wow, okay interesting and then the next one. It was like 70. I was like, wow What the what and so I literally at that point I Like we were discussing before we started where When I sort of feel that like spark of something I Like to push it. I I don't want to ever and this goes beyond starting a podcast But I don't want to ever regret not trying something not pushing something as far as I think I can push it Or maybe even just just to see so I was like screw it. I'm gonna go all in for a year See where we can take this That was five years ago And so now yeah, it's grown into Its own thing at this point beyond just the podcast itself But it all comes back to there. I think episode 476 or 477 came out today Still suck at interviewing but here we are What would you say? like looking back hindsight 2020, what would you say Things that you did well And then if you had a time machine to go back to your younger self, what are things that you would change differently if you approached it again So the thing I would do the same which is Creating any product which to me the podcast is a product, right? It has to fit within a gap has to there's to be a gap in the marketplace that you can fill if I can't Even visually almost see that gap What am I creating like nobody else will notice it either because it's everything's saturated Yeah, right. So there was this gap right and now you go look and type in like entrepreneurial mindset or something It's like into itunes. And yeah, there's a thousand of us. Cool. Awesome But that same gap doesn't exist. Luckily. I was at a forefront of it and that helped me a lot but You really have to find that gap and it goes into like positioning and stuff then like that. That's What made me unique is just filling that tiny little bit of a gap and Possibly the fact that I had no idea what I was doing like in ignorance is bliss Right, but also just like um like not professional like that's what people told me like they really They liked my interviews because they were like I can just tell you're super into these conversations and your interview skills are a bit But you're just super into these conversations and I get to just sit in with them I'm like Cool because that's like lots of us like oh be authentic and do that make sure you do something you love and it's like Well, I was just doing it. I I didn't want anybody to listen to it. Really. I just want to have this conversation Word authentic because it is actually means artificial Because then you're trying to do something. It's like you got to be authentic. I'm like me just being me is me What do you mean authentic? Is like you label something as soon as you label something there's a box Right and then you're like your mind your mindset changes are authentic Wait a second it might be having the way it should be having what is this authentic thing? You know, I mean the overthink being yourself or something just do you right exactly and It's not always that you can talk about something you want on a podcast and have it also fill a gap But I mean it was a tweak to it And then so on the flip side of it. I'm here the thing that I would do differently which took me I'm gonna say two years to figure out And the podcast so it went up up up up up up up and then sort of went flat And then started to actually kind of drop down a bit and I think my enthusiasm for it dropped But then I realized that like It was actually a conversation I had with Seth Godin and It was about The work and so I was just I was in this like Producing podcast three a week doing it doing it doing it's all about the podcast It's all about the podcast and so I talked to Seth and we were like I was just I felt like I was stuck in his Dip as he calls it But I was like you've been writing a blog post every single day for like five years at this point This was years ago. Uh, I'm like How do you do that work every single day? And he's like, oh, okay first john That's not the work The work isn't producing that he's like that's just like baseline default what I have to do to do the work that I want to do Which is everything which is me being here because of that work, but that's You need to just start getting into the habit of like creating stuff and putting it out whatever platform you want to use But that's not your work Like unless you become just an official author and that's fine But in our space in like especially in the business space, it's like you have to just Find what it is you want to create find what it is whatever platform text or audio or video And then just start creating and then it's like, okay, so if that takes five hours a week That's not your work. That's just has to happen every single week. I was to me was really profound It was a profound change because it was a lot of goddamn work doing three a week and then it's like No, john, that's not your work It's like I want to disagree with you Seth Godin, but I won't because yeah, you you'd kind of know what you're talking about and so That to me was profound and that like really made it Where I could actually create better stuff and because it didn't feel like I was on like this sort of Hamster wheel of just creating so much stuff. It's like actually I can kind of more enjoy this because that's actually just the better I do that And sort of the faster even because it allows me more other time in the week than the month in the year I get to do other cool work. I get to meet other cool people I get to go on other cool shows I get to and the better I do that the more of that stuff I get to do which is actually the stuff that really drives me now So those would be the two things that would be the thing that like I would do again And the thing that I wouldn't sort of do again And so what did you do to change your direction when the stats started going down? I just put my head down and just kept going I was just like I just have to keep going Stop checking my stats five times a day All those kinds of things to the point where I they get checked once a month for me now And they get put into a spreadsheet and I just check it but That was it and just thinking about it. I think in that way and I mean that was Not even episode 200 at that point and so, you know, it was 300 ago And so I've gone through those a couple other times But it's it's just thinking of it Knowing that the the age that we live in The to do cool stuff that you want to do or that I want to do You do have to create content of a sort It's it's what gives us the people we get to watch the people we listen to all that The only reason we know about them and follow them and care about them is because of something that they already create And brings us in and I do love the creation process, but it's it's really hard sometimes But I I do it and I just have like Seth go in the back of my head like dude, it's not the work. That's not the work That's not the work do this so you can do the work you want I think a lot of people are just scared of rejection and a lot of people are scared of the fact that listen There's no such thing as the end, you know one of my favorite people to study is Joseph Campbell And people are always looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow rainbow and the goalpost always changes And when you're looking at whether it's podcast creation or business creation It's the love of the process. It's the skills that you develop the friendships that you make Uh the wisdom that you gain the money can't buy You know a lot of people have a hard time of raising their head and hand and taking onus for a responsibility Because if things fail, it's on you It's on anybody else, you know, I mean like oh If I fail it's on me. I can't blame anybody else No, you can't there's a famous greek saying if you point a finger somebody three point back at you and so Let's kind of fast forward. So you've been doing this for five plus years, you know, you have hundreds of thousands of downloads of the show um What what what what would you say is? What have you noticed since in the last five years like what is this? What does that platform given you the opportunity that if you've never done it before? What's it giving me the opportunity to do? Yeah Because you know like everyone's starting with podcasts and things seems like everyone wants a fucking podcast, you know Right like Conan and Brian now starting a podcast. My favorite new podcast. Believe it or not Is tyson's hot boxing. Oh, oh bro Fucking crazy. Oh tyson's the man tyson if you're watching this Kudos to you brother. It's all about the toad. I love it um And you know the reason I started this is you know, I've been in the podcasting space long time before like even when you started I was doing the health podcast. I don't know. I did a two three hundred episodes. I got tired. I left it, you know Like you said, it's a lot of work Should be told i'm just doing this to like right before the show I just talked to good friends again because what y'all gives you excuse come on over man. Let's chat uh but You know, there's very seldom podcasts I listen to Yeah, you know very seldom out of millions of podcasts. Maybe like I can count them on my fingers And so it's like so saturated And so horrible because everyone's trying to follow everyone else's template, you know It's like And also a lot of people are trying to look at the end results like oh, I'm gonna get a podcast I think I'm gonna million downloads. I'm gonna get blah blah. I'm like dude The chance of you doing that is like slim to none like Yeah, you know like and unless you're like willing to put in the work for like fucking seven years And like really master your craft and get good at what you're doing forget about it But you've been doing this now, you know five plus years Like what would you say is like things that kind of like surprised you that gave you the opportunity Like your platform things that you wouldn't even realize it opened doors for you Uh everything I mean like like my life is My mind and my family's life is completely different. I started my podcast in a town called thunder bay Ontario I forgot you're fucking from there. Like the town is a hundred thousand people and so I'm gonna pause you if you guys don't for the listeners out there if you guys don't know where thunder bay is It's bum fuck nowhere north of toronto. I'm talking about what is like 10 hours north So the way I like to tell people especially americans is Go to minneapolis, minnesota, which is what you think is the furthest point north You can possibly go and then get into a car and drive at highway speed for six solid hours And then you get the thunder bay straight north. It's not it's so cold there too. Oh my god But I started it in my basement office And within six months I was getting monthly downloads of more people than lived in my town Which I thought was Kind of trippy kind of cool. I was like, wow, I'm talking to more people than there are in this entire city at this point and Nobody had anything to do with this except for me. I just did it Nobody knew who I was at this point all this stuff and that to me and then obviously like since then now I like I live here and I mean I've Met you I've everything my entire life is I don't know how it would be if I hadn't of listened to those people hadn't have Done something that terrified me absolutely And just just went for it and it was freaking hard man It's freaking hard to start publishing But then once you do it, it's kind of just like oh it's like oh, I think 476 came out today I'm not sure but you know what I mean, but at first it's like this is everything And Yeah, it's it's I don't know if it's as simple as it's the fear why people don't create But I guess it ultimately is I think it's what depends on who you are You know what I mean like You know like if you look at somebody's body you have you know mesomorph ectomorph endomorph Um, you have different types of traits, you know, it's not that black and white You have introverts extroverts ambivert you can be a hybrid Depending on if you're on your mire's break or disc profiling. Everybody's a little bit different. It's like shades of gray, right? It's not black or white Example I'm a fucking horrible writer. I can't stand writing Um, when I have to do it, it's like pulling teeth on my fucking head I just I can't I'm like, what is this? You know, I can speak faster Like my brain is working on overdrive Um, and so video for me is naturally easy. I enjoy conversing and talking. I'm an animated person, you know But I got friends of mine Who's the complete opposite but they're very uh cerebral analytical Uh detailed oriented, you know, they can spit out like an essay and you read them like fuck man It's like a phd essay, you know like crisp, right? They read numbers and very very like I said cerebral but when it comes to like Conversation even in person even in person forget cameras forget all this stuff. Yeah, it's like It's hard to have You know, I mean, it's hard to have a conversation like I like down to earth conversation Right, right. I I mean there's to me. There's three mediums, right? There's text. There's audio and there's video I feel like everybody Gravitates towards one of those it's very rare that we gravitate to more than one I mean we can push ourselves and then go on multi platforms whatever, but we all gravitate easiest to one of them and Uh, unfortunately because I I absolutely feared it like and I hated hearing the sound of my voice Audio seemed to be the closest one. Everybody hates your voice. I fucking hate my I know totally There's some science to it too. So we're not there is right the way you hear and I've learned that since now but I didn't know that then um, but But I mean that's another whole thing was I I started writing like I I hadn't really written anything and then one of my guests came on and he was like, hey Would you like to write for this? giant website and I was like Oh, okay, and I was all I'm thinking is like I've never written anything my teachers Throughout grade school told me I would I could never write I didn't know grammar And that's that's all I had in the back of my head. Uh, and then I just started doing it And I realized that Huh, actually I can write I just need a really good editor And that's it and editors can't write but most writers can't actually Do the editing part and they do screw up grammar here and there and it doesn't matter It's the ideas and putting them into a form that's unique to you. Uh, and so I mean that is something that Almost got forced on me through the podcast was like I got asked to do and it's like well I can't pass this up right like people are fighting to write for that and it's like, okay Well, sure and then started doing it and then I started writing for more and more people and then I put out a book after that and it's like, oh, wow I still don't call myself a writer. I would never call myself a writer, but I do write a fair bit Um, maybe frame it as educator No, I mean I write for blogs and you know what I mean like and I'm not a blogger, but I just I I try and put ideas down onto a screen if necessary, but um, I think I have a lot of work to go to call myself a writer quote unquote. Um, because Because of the goddamn school system and the way it The way the teacher's like hammered into me that I couldn't do it I never passed high school. I got kicked out end of grade nine. Fair enough. You know, I mean so I failed All of grade 10 except for one class, which is a I don't even know what class that was I know that I failed the whole thing and then I ended up going to school with the people below me I know like keyboarding was the thing at the time and I failed that. Yeah. Um, so it's probably like math or science or something that I did pass but So when did you start Because I I know a lot of people are interested in this topic as well Um, when did you decide to start monetizing your podcast? That's a good question I decided See this this is hard taking And this to me goes into like the nuance of the fear and why people don't start things because It it's so out of context because the world the the podcast space the world in general has changed from then, right? And so I would tell people yeah, I don't think about monetization, but it was like week three Fresh books like email me. Hey man. Can I like sponsor your show and I was like Mike the Dermot, right? Right exactly and I was I was like, oh and like figuring out like how do you do a sponsorship? What's a sponsorship contract and they ended up sponsoring me for like a year and a half or something it just kept and so it's not like that anymore and So it's hard to have that conversation because there's people listening and it's like, oh, I would love to do that too It's like, yeah, I'm fortunately Missed that train of not that it can't happen. It just it's probably not going to happen in week three unless you're Conan O'Brien Sure, right that's to me a huge thing that's changed into what are sponsors looking for right now Is there like minimum downloads like what are they what what what stats are they looking for? So sponsors to me And I only know from my own experience the reason why I'm bringing this up I have a lot of my friends They want to do this on the side. Yeah, and they're talking about sponsors They ask me but I'm like I'm in a position. I don't care, right, you know So it's I'm like I'm mailing a podcast against sponsors, right, you know, like I don't fucking need it That doesn't that doesn't mean I'm not going to have sponsors But the ones who have a plan from the get go to have sponsors Like for me, it's like, okay. I've never dealt with sponsors. They never dealt with sponsors. You have like and you're correct Time has changed like when you started it wasn't that Saturated wasn't that crazy, you know, I mean now it's like fuck like I said, everyone's having a podcast, right? So what currently today? What are they looking for? they're looking for an audience that's Niche market specific Um, and I mean, I'm talking from the diy small podcasters, which I'm one of them, right? I'm not The rogans of the world and stuff, right those guys play in a different field that I don't know how that works, but With mine people basically want to come in and test I'll only allow people to test three episodes minimum because there's a lot of just getting them up and running and They just want to know that Like to me you can have fewer and fewer and fewer downloads down to the hundreds if you have a very like product managers for Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. I have 350 of those and it's like, whoa like a couple companies are just like, whoa I will pay you Look, you know what it means. They know what a customer's worked with them So there's that there's a lot within the marketplace of Lots of people just throwing it at the wall seeing what works like at podcast advertising It's like they they know that it works for a lot of companies but it doesn't also work for a lot of companies and so it it can be hard in that way but As a podcaster It's just sales And I know a lot of podcasters don't want to hear that but I feel like I could almost sell podcast advertising for anybody's podcast as long as it's good As long as it's got some sort of an audience and as long as it really focuses in on somebody then Outreach sell Outreach sell and then it's a somewhat of a numbers game at that point and again I don't have to deal with any of that I have a sponsor page and people just come through the door and ask to buy and we're sold out till the end of the year It's just how it is and it just That's not fair, but it's it's the way it works and then beyond that It's just like a basic contract that you can find on pandedocs or whatever. There's like sponsorship podcast sponsorship Documents at this point that part's easy, but it it is sales Right. It's it's like real estate Because there's no other show that's exactly your show that exists. There's only one and it's only worth What somebody will pay for it And so if you can sort of make that sale make that pitch and focus on them and their audience and making it work for them then they'll do it And then beyond that you you have to then Hold up your into the bargain, which is You have to try and get them as many customers as possible So you you should get a unique code of some sort because otherwise they can't track it You should get a unique url that actually says hi to your listeners It works way better for people if they're not willing to do that It's not going to work and they're going to blame you for it and that doesn't matter But it's kind of just it's a shitty situation to be in And so just make sure you have those things a decent contract and Just go out there and be told no a bunch of times until somebody's like all right, sure What would you say was your most most surprising guest that you had on? I have to say Still to this day and she was probably 60 or 70 like that number of guest and her name is dames Stephanie Shirley And so I had interviewed this lady Emma I'll say Emma Johnson super smart lady from the uk She was running a really cool business And so we did that and she was like right after the conversation ended Or the recording and then we're just chatting and she's like, oh Would you like to interview this other person? I think you guys would be perfect And so I had never heard of her right and so I just type it in like wikipedia comes up. I was like Oh and so she just have set me up to this lady and this lady Is at the time this is like four years ago now five years ago She was like 78 or something And she had started a software business in the uk in the Like early 60s when it was punch cards and she not only did that but she only hired women women who weren't allowed to work typically and Like she just did everything Sort of against what the norm was at the time and this business ended up like getting Restructured restructured and eventually in the 90s sometime she sold it for like 700 million dollars. And when I interviewed her she was Running like three different like not for profits and stuff and I was like, are you kidding me? Like you're 78 and you're she's like, yeah, I mean when I get old I'll probably just like go have tea with the ladies So you're almost 80 and since then she's done a ted talk at the ted talks vancouver Last summer. I think it was There's a book out now about her but like like her life story was It was I want to say so it was wasn't the first time that I was nervous to talk to one of my guests because I was Nervous to talk to lots of them because they were just people I'd sort of like admired their work but her I was just like I like I don't you shouldn't be talking to me like like she from like the war and like Getting sent on one of those kitty like all these things. I didn't even know about but she was Jewish and got like sent with just like her Sister when she was like three for removed from her parents and all of this stuff It's just crazy and then see I have a theory for that man the grit theory. I think one of the things and I don't know if you've been paying attention, but there's like huge political turmoil happening right now There's more divide people trying to label everybody Pointing fingers fingers blah blah blah the left is going to the left the right is going to the right Regular people in the bell curve are like, you know, I just want to wreck our life. Yeah, these two sides are boring I few if you uh, if you studied stuff from like Stephen Pinker or even like Eric Weinstein talks about this even Sam Harris as well Um, I'm specifically speaking for like western Europe or the western nations north america um We've gone the longest period of time with peace Now this peace creates kinetic energy It creates political kinetic energy Um bad emotional energy also positive energy and eventually like any boiling pot It explodes right like a pressure cooker And so the question is like are we reaching that tipping point? Or like Something's going to give and the reason why I bring this up is like I look at my parents generation They went through fuck my dad went to three wars Not one but three my mom went to two, you know world war two And uh, you go slide in civil war right, so There's actually interesting studies they've done with people who've gone through Uh, first they did it on people who survived war then the people who survived very traumatic incidents in their life like and They have a better appreciation for life more grit, you know, so this lady that you're speaking about she You know the nazis holocaust Auschwitz. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like that's fucked It's like beyond comprehension. So your psyche builds certain tools Has to as a defense mechanism or else you just go fucking You have psychosis you just you snap like a lot of people did And there's grit man. This is something that's missing today, man The grit is fucking missing Yeah it's So, I mean there is the division is one thing but Like Does this like soft period also does it also I there's like i'm trying to like think this through of It sucks. It sucks. What's happening, right? And it's just like mind-boggling the the I mean our governments are going Right like in crazy ways, right? Like I mean from england to us and i'm starting to they're going they're going polar opposites You have suckers the government going here and then here right in the middle is like Where's room for the middle? Exactly and so that's tough, but But I feel like this time also does We lose the grit you're right, but we do like do we gain compassion maybe or not compassion but like a furthering of like the psyche of humanity And so what i'm relating to is in the sense of we are The whole woke thing and all that stuff and lots of that's just whatever but there's a lot of good to it and there's a lot of like stuff where people where We're we're wealthy we get to sit around and contemplate shit We didn't get to do that right and when from your parents Like if you're going through wars you don't get to do that you survive and yes, it gives you grit But it doesn't always Further us as much or like no it furthers us in different ways as society. So what i'm getting at is I don't think that Though I think the loss of grit is something that you're absolutely right about But I don't think it's all bad because I do think that around that does give us this ability to And I think it is A deeper sort of Empathy maybe of other people like just from what my daughter goes through at school like the teaching and all the stuff How does she she just started high school? Oh, wow. Yeah crazy. Wow this year like last week Um, but just like going through that she was homeschooled for a couple years in the middle so we could travel but um the just The perception and the way they deal with each other and acceptance and things It just wasn't done in the 90s when I went to school. It was not like that and to me there's something Good about that But but I do appreciate the fact that there's like there's like 30 and 35 year old people Just living in parents basements and they can't function. I think there's it's a multivariable variable issue You know With social media like jonathan haith talks about this right specifically affects young women or girls Um, I think there's a lot of things have happened um Number one, obviously we have we've had economic issues a lot of the blue collar middle class jobs are getting squeezed That doesn't it doesn't help that the uh the fed is printing money through quantitative easing and our buying powers decreasing What's the point in making three times more money when the buying powers are losing about? You know inflation two percent plus tax Plus products increasing on average you're losing about 3.5 to 5 per year for purchasing power It would probably still be nice for a lot of people to still have their wages going up It's a match that at least but I get what you're saying The fed just needs to stop printing money and go back to gold reserve. Yeah, you know our buying power needs to increase Hence by by bitcoin Our sponsor today is brought to you by satoshi nakamoto by bitcoin um So as a multitude of factory you have social media, which is causing mental crisis and young females like crazy Depression suicide. They're affected more like you give boys and jonathan talks about this Highly recommend reading his book the culling of the american mind Uh, you give boys internet cell phone, whatever, uh video games porn, right? They're not that psychologically affected per se Right girls girls are the worst when it comes to social creatures girls women um there It's a hierarchical battle between females, right? Um, how does how do I what's first of all, it's what what's it in it for me? Second of all, how do I look? From the perception to my other females, right? So they're always comparing compare compare And they ridicule each other extremely, you know boys. We have a different way of settling differences, right? And it's done, right? I probably won't talk. I might man. I've been a million fights I'll I'll have a beer with you. I've done it man. Like we'll fucking fight it out like two deers, you know I mean like, okay, we're good, right? We have a means of aggression on the other hand young girls They're not physical per se at least majority. Let's say 99 percent. So their thing is more chronic It's verbal abuse group pressure abuse So that's one thing starting at early age is social media like I think we're gonna look back 10 15 years and be like This is like smoking cigarettes It it's a tool and I'm not saying like any okay, so I have a car Cars kill more people than guns. It's a fact Human beings are horrible drivers, especially now everyone's like, oh, I can drive no problem bang You know, I mean like it's ridiculous, man. Yeah I am I when I cross the road I watch a million times these days like drivers are fucking insane Yeah, like crazy, man I get hit like almost once a day when like oh oops run a red And so like any tool the tool's innate it doesn't have like sentient intelligence, right? Right So you have these social media platforms, whatever you name it and it's not like us saying bye-bye social media I think Um, it can be used for good, right like look what we're doing right now a lot of good can come out of it Right, however, I think we have to start at a very young age of understanding There's a time and a place for things. There's a context for things and I think the education needs to start from early age Of how to use these tools better, you know, that's one aspect of society that needs to change Second aspect of society that needs to change specifically relates to males young males Back in the day, you can even view right now with hunters and certain hunters and gather even certain cultures They still have a right of way a passage where there is a psychological trigger Is a trigger of a boy turning into a man It can be something so simple as a father passing his rifle Or a father spending time in a, you know, two-day camping trip where they go through an extreme Adventure or experience and the father gives the son something it can be even like whatever a sim a symbolic gift That moment there's a psychological trigger females They naturally By nature are given a psychological trigger They menstruate right we don't right And so you that's we see a lot of young angry men today They're still boys in men's bodies They've never They've never had that psychological evolution to have responsibility And it's a multitude of different factors, you know The father's not really in their life doesn't mean he's not therapy. He's not part of a part of the family number two Number two you have the fact of In this Jonathan hate talks about this is the advent of helicopter parents Right will make everything easy for you. It's like how does that benefit anybody anywhere? You want them to It's like a puzzle learn the skill fail, you know feeling is going to be very normal in life, right get back up Learn enjoy the process don't enjoy the incentive. Everybody wins now, man. It's it's so fucked You get a prize you get a prize you get a prize give me a break How's that training society to be better? Right, it's not it's not. No, it's not So, okay, so I guess Unpack you to a certain degree the the social media thing I do I guess I want to disagree to a certain I think I think it's rather just like it just is Social media is just a tool that's just there It might amplify some of the things well, obviously it amplifies a ton of the things but But the relationships, I don't know if it like I don't know if that changes it for I mean, I'm a father of a young girl, right and I see I mean I and I had sisters growing up They used to just talk on the phone for hours and hours and hours and there'd still be fights and things going on but This this idea of it like bringing in depression And depression is like a thing now that everybody's talking about discussing it, um, which they rightly should be Again when I went to school Nobody fucking talked about depression ever again, which is it wasn't a thing You know what I mean? And there's still there's an older generation my generation and then older even that like Especially like my parents like scoffing at these kids Oh, everybody's depressed now and stuff and it's like yeah, but do you think it's Do you think it the fact that you didn't notice oppression? Maybe the The fact that there is actually more depression Well, see that's that's like I grew up with no social media. I was probably the last generation. I'm 85 so I'm 34 35 right And so I didn't get I didn't get like a smartphone until I was like Like 22 20 like I was past my high my you know teenage years I like I would used to be a big fucking part of your Socializing 24 clubs two three times a week raves you name it like outdoors outdoors outdoors no fucking cell phone The cell phone I did was like a What the fuck was it Motorola? No the razor who had the razor? Who what company was it? Was it Motorola? Okay, you know the razor Like the matrix the matrix fucking razor phone. Yeah, so that that's a phone I had for a long time and my original phone likes an okia brick snake Yeah, right and I I enjoyed being In the moment of those events I was socializing. I wasn't being bombarded by oh my god. Look how beautiful that person is on instagram Oh my god. John's living his life. He's traveling around the world Oh, and then I'm gonna sulk in my tears over here because I'm not living your life. You know what I mean? You have all these psychological social pressures Building up in you and this happening subconsciously like I was never exposed to that ever I would just I wasn't aware of anybody else doing anything. I was just in the moment My whole generation. Well, you were aware of like celebrities and stars and things Yeah, but it wasn't 24 7 you didn't have access to 20 the only way you can have access for that Is like I go on the fucking internet or get a magazine It wasn't I did instagram did not exist facebook did not exist youtube did not internet in this way Didn't it didn't really exist, you know, I mean, you know, I still it was still like dial-up every remember 256 bit or whatever it was Like I wasn't we weren't bombarded by all these social pressures You know The cognitive load the people are under today and there's the science is coming out day by day You know like people are waking up viewing instagram is like Oh gotta view my phone right away in the morning Is that healthy No No, it's not healthy, but we I think we tend to do a lot of things in our teens In 20s that aren't healthy bro, bro And so that's a whole different thing where this I've done too much. I know me too way too much This the stuff I was doing at 16. I mean All I can say is I'm so glad people couldn't just take pictures and post it permanently on lunch That's I'm so happy. I was like one of the last generations before all this shit That I fucking did yeah, imagine if that was documented. Oh god Imagine if you were looking at my bio today before like I don't even know if you should come on the show man It's crazy right and so that's different right that's totally different but I don't know I like So there's bad things to it right again. It's gray all of this is but this idea that it's What created this sort of like depressed generation? I think is bullshit I think we just weren't aware of it and this we weren't aware of it. That's for sure Right, I mean and it existed as a thing but again, this goes back to me where I was like we We are wealthier. We're we're freer to do things we we travel like people didn't travel the way we travel You know what I mean? Like it's just all the time like either like my daughter or her friends are just like Uh, we were in France. We were in Spain. We were in again, and it's just so not a thing anymore I mean it when I was in grade nine It was like if somebody was ever going to like Winnipeg or Vancouver. It was like a big deal. Yeah You know what I mean? Not just like oh, wow, that's where you went for the weekend. Yeah, of course cool It that's that's different. That's really different and it does give us this freedom. It allows us or enables us to To I mean not just contemplate things because obviously when we're checking Instagram all the time We're not contemplating but it does I think as a society Give us more freedom to stop and so for me to stop as a parent and actually Give a shit about like how my daughter might be feeling or thinking Which not that my parents didn't care. Of course they did But they never stopped and asked like it just wasn't a thing and nobody nobody's like Maybe you should go see a therapist. No one taught you that did they you just learned from your own experience You sound like you went to a class like John. I'm on this just how are you going and right? But I'm saying that I think that is afforded to me because of the Lifestyle that things around me have allowed me to live right the internet as it is being able to run a podcast and like Not have to work that much is is not a thing that happened 20 years ago now it's it's a it's a luxury beyond a luxury right it's like 0.0001 of the world Right and but I mean to me that like so there's the grit and the loss of grit and that's Terrible that's a thing that we do need to sort of analyze But I do think that it's not all bad. I think that there's a lot of good things coming out of it. I think Us hopefully is like a human race will come out better and will be more evolved in this process I think so like there's a buddha saying it is as it should be, you know, like a like a passing cloud it comes and goes right you You know, it's like Like the butterfly effect you look back in hindsight and realize well if this if that didn't happen this wouldn't happen So it like dominos I'm seeing it right now. I think there's one thing missing though and Has kind of something to do with the internet a little bit but more or less has to do with metropolitans like cities and the busy life is One aspect of human beings is we're very tribal all right, so Racism doesn't exist naturally Tribalism does it's a real thing. You can see in the animal kingdom different chimps different apes You go to the territory Shit's gonna fucking get real Yeah, yeah, it's resource guarding at its finest. That's all it is Resource is a female for mating and resource of manja food. That's it. You know what I mean That's a real thing tribalism the underlying thing with tribalism those community That's one thing that our lifestyle right Well, I gotta work x y and z I have to be in the city stuck in traffic an hour here an hour back right Social media you think you're connected, but you're not really connected You're enjoying what your friends are doing chatting blah blah blah. We're more disconnected than ever And if you look at like the psychology of humans And this goes back to what you said earlier. We are in an existential crisis of abundance People have the mazal hierarchy of needs for the most part not everybody But like in canada even if you don't have a job you can at least have shelter and you can have food You know, you're well off way more than somebody poor in india or somebody poor in africa Like you're poor over here is like them rich over there. Right, right? And luckily we have good organizations and systems, etc and so what I see Happening slowly is people are waking up and seeing like One I want to opt out you know for example in toronto where we are To live Normally i'm not talking about like oh i'm living to live normally D town toronto You need like 80k Like rent To bedroom something simple small with no parking. You're starting at 2500 Starting that doesn't include utilities or anything that doesn't include parking spot That doesn't include anything like you need base bone like four 45 hundred dollars a month base Like the most basic of the basic to even live and breathe d town toronto 80k is like Yay, I have a roof and food Right, and you're busting your ass right for that 80k, right? You hardly see your friends or family, etc And then you realize like why am I doing this? You know, you can go live at places like three hours north of toronto or outside of toronto One tenth of the cost, you know, I used to live in british columbia colona a couple of years There is a city in british columbia called nelson. It's like a hippie little canada beautiful. It's fucking gorge You don't cheap it is a little nelson. Yeah fucking cheap Like super cheap like a breathtaking like you're you're in like ah 24 70 like you just step outside. You're like Like Surreal beauty like unre like I can't even describe it in words how beautiful with the rocky mountains in the lake over there It's like unreal And so I think The aspect of like why am I working so hard for so for so little Couple with the fact of like when's the last time I I broke bread with anybody Like really breaking bread sitting down having a community. I think we're gonna see Very soon an exodus of people opting out And trying to figure out simpler lives. That's that's the biggest problem humans. We're not living Joseph Campbell talks about we're not experiencing life We're just living life right now Cool, you're making 250 a year salary working for a company working 100 hours a week Never see your partner never see your kids or never see your friends will be fucking do that's not living What is that? Your robot your your mind as well be a robot And that's what people are missing that deep rooted connection Of just having conversations enjoying company of friends and family And this is something I think it's going to be really interesting to see how it How it pans out in the next like 10 15 years So when you mentioned like nelson or three hours north of here, it's smaller. It's one-tenth the cost Does the tribalism still exist? I'll give you my personal experience. So when I moved to colona. Colona is not small small It's about a hundred k like um Around colona summertime grows by 4x population everybody from caligree and vancouver come But the okanagan valley, maybe it's like quarter like the total valley give or take Colona colona not west colona, but main colona From a geographical area is tiny like the actual downtown is one street that I can walk in A minute maybe you know, I mean massive lake beautiful lake, you know, I have lived on sunset drive Right beside nox mountain, you know Million yoga studios Was a weird thing that happened to me when I went there originally and the reason I went out there My wife was finishing finishing her undergrad at ubc. So we lived there for four years People and I was taken aback by it because I didn't know how to respond initially People smiled at me and said hello. How are you doing it? I was like Like it took me a while to register and to behave properly with that happy greeting from random strangers Because if someone in toronto came up, hey man, how you doing? I don't fucking know you Really you're a bit aggressive for people do say hi I don't know man at least smile and like no it's different. It's not just smiling man Like everyone was like open art like very community driven They have a lot of homeschooling over there. So the When you go these smalls, everybody knows everybody just because of numbers and they have a different type of lifestyle Slow pace. It's nice. Everybody knows a coffee owner shop by name Everybody knows a restaurant owners by name. I hate it all of that I've left Thunder Bay twice now and I'll never go back and so So thunder Bay is different thunder Bay is you get the cold man. The reason why I like the Kelowna was I I had the Rockies. I had Lake Kamulka the beautiful emerald lake over here Lake Kelowna not man I was I'll show you afterwards or like it was like a fucking resort. It was insane. It's beautiful Unreal like unreal beauty like I still couldn't believe I was living there. I wake up. I'm like, where the fuck am I? This is un fucking like I couldn't comprehend where I was living like it's hard for me But it was that connection and there's cons to it too. It takes time to build into it trust to be built, right? But there is I noticed I had much After living there for a year. I noticed I had a calmer demeanor I was much more chilled a little bit And there's like fun to like, you know people by first name they have events all the time It's interesting, you know what I mean? But I think what it's going to happen and I I know a couple of friends doing this right now I think we're going to have more intentional communities Where it's kind of mapped and planned Right, I think I mean online people are trying to do that right and meetups and things and so Interestingly enough and so maybe I'm not the usual probably because most people live in cities, but the idea of that calm and sort of more chilled is good but It's not good for long periods of time meaning We moved from Vancouver to Thunder Bay and it was supposed to be just like a pit stop And we stayed there for way too many years and then finally came here But the last couple years There like I just fell into like a pit of like despair and not like necessarily like, you know what I mean? But it was I I didn't push myself To build more things to do cool stuff. I was I was surrounded by complacency I was surrounded by people making $30,000 a year and happy about well, not even happy about it, but just Huh, this is how it is content. Yeah, and that really really really weighed on me Like I wanted to be surrounded by people who were just doing cool stuff all the time. That's amazing I wanted to be able to see lots of music. I wanted to be able to see lots of art things that I couldn't do there and I mean just Mentally and every other aspect of me at this point is like thriving Just in like the last three years here And that's still not to say because my wife is different and she Needs more nature and stuff and so we do have to go out and like go to like the best of both worlds Is like a two three hour place outside of a major city Maybe but I wouldn't come in as much. You don't have to come in that much You come in for good occasions I see a lot of live music right now Yeah, like one or two shows a week kind of thing. Uh, and I wouldn't I mean because where I live I literally just can walk like that's amazing. Yeah, it's great. Um, and I'm not going to want to do that forever But for now, it's looking great. This is why I worked hard to be able to do this. It's fun and so There is that other side to it, but then here's the question somebody asked me the other day and it made me think Which is like how often do you see? friends It depends. I got my high quality friends like hey, let's go out for a coffee. How often is that? I have a system. So my good friends no matter what we have uh, we break dinner together every month Like a group setting. Yeah, and then Elise for me Uh, I try to Elise have a coffee or lunch two to three days a week with people. Wow. Yeah That's for me. Yeah. Yeah, that's I've been doing that for a while crazy And I already have lunch so like right why not fucking have lunch for my friend? I don't have lunch So that's the whole other thing or coffee right the the lunch hour. Let's say right the lunch hour, you know I tend to have it with people And it's just the hour's book so it can be coffee. It can be sitting down really doesn't matter You know, so I try to I don't want to say strategically, but I You know, I I like to make the effort. I know people are busy And so for me my my system is like, okay Two weeks Before we meet put in our calendar You know, like I said at the beginning of this podcast the reason why I started this is like another fucking reason to meet my friends You know what I mean, um, and so I think a lot of you know, I might be the the outlier, but I think a lot of people You know Like maybe it was like a year and a half ago. I was I was crazy busy And I couldn't see anybody and went like months like I just swamped, you know My wedding planning for the wedding this and that like fucking swamped and I couldn't see anybody like I think I think if if people if people really care, they'll make an effort to do it, but everyone's a little bit different um But yeah, like I don't know what kind of point we're trying to get through with that Well, just because recently, um, peter levels on twitter. So the guy created nomad list He just literally asked like a poll and there was four options And it was like how often do you meet in real life with friends? And it was like once a month once a week many times a week every day kind of thing And mine was like once a month and I was like, oh man, it's gonna be and it was I wish I could bring it up But I can't but it was A staggering amount of people with the like the one month and then a couple times a month and I was like wow So it really but that's like in real life friends. I I talked to my best friends online Daily or on like whatsapp or we get on calls and you know what I mean and people that I've met online Like not people I've ever lived in the same city as or anything Um, but I don't typically I mean, I'm also fairly new to a city and I I mean I more know you've been here for a while, right? But I mean it gets harder to just sort of get into Different crowds and like I almost more see people as they come through the city that I just know and it's like Oh, cool. I live here now and so we hang out but But I found that sort of fascinating because it's in that sense of The isolation and the but but also it's it's like we're isolated physically but like Mentally and psychically and stuff We're not necessarily because we do have we have or I get to have relationships Deeper and better relationships than I could have had without any of this around us And so I guess I just like to play the devil's advocate of things where it's not always just isolating us into these places where we just never Converse with other people and interact with other people that there are other ways to do it That that didn't exist without this and to me that's massive. Yeah, hence why it's a tool right So that's how you use it Right, but it always gets the idea of just like it's terrible. It's ruining our society Well, they use that for pr. All right cells. It can't be like, well, this is a fine balance argument Then we have uh analytical data to some people like what? That's one thing I've learned as I got older that everything is Gray everything there's gray. I used to be so like Damn it. It's this or it's this or it's this and now it's like It depends. It depends. Like same thing with the environment Like if you if you look in the past like 40 years like previous politics or like think tanks and they're like Oh, we're gonna die in 10 years of planet. I'm like It's been fucking 50 years. I'm not dead yet. You know what I mean at some point. It'll be true. Well, we might die Right But like we all are gonna die. I personally don't care like for me the earth will remain the earth has been bombarded by ridiculous amounts of gamma radiation And asteroids and meteorites and like for example like k2 the crazy event like what is 100 million years ago The earth's fine. The problem of humans is themselves They can't handle the oh shit the human beings will disappear. You know, I mean Um, I don't know. I'm not into that whole egotics egotistical thing like oh humans are the center of the fucking universe You know, we're just another creature within the universe a very small one a very small one, right? Um very small conceded one. Yeah, so I think it'll be fine. I think people overplay everything everything you see on on media and everything you see with politics is just like Blowing up shit to get votes blowing up stuff to get clicks. That's it, man That's that's a weird thing. Um It's a scary thing to me the politics of The politics of facts don't matter Is scary like literally whoever has the biggest platform and can say Nonsense that's now like gospel truth the media lies about everything and whatever this person gets the most retweets It's like that's now the truth and facts just Are completely irrelevant. That's scariest shit Um, and I don't know how we overcome that because you get politicians who want to come in and try and like Go against politicians doing those kinds of things and play it the normal politician Straight way of not like not making stuff up and I don't know how you beat People just making stuff up. We have to create a better game theoretical model for checks and balances with governments I'm not a big fan of nation states I'm definitely a fan of borders when people say no borders. I'm like, you're a very naive individual. Yeah, extremely naive Borders exist in nature They're real. Yeah, once have been tribalism You're a champ and you want another chimps border. You're gonna get fucked. Yeah So borders are real and we need it for a reason That's not the question. The question is how do we Counterbalance a cancerous growth of government because the goal the government is is it's it needs to grow It needs to collect more taxes. You need to misuse our taxes, right? Like I don't know what the fuck it goes Yeah, you know black hole like And you need to hire more bureaucracians. That's a job of the government Now in nature, um, there's checks and balances in nature Uh in computer science, we you know, we use something and I'm not a computer scientist But we use, you know game theoretical models, right? Where it's like you have all these different scenarios What happens in these different scenarios if this happens, then what if that happens and what so forth all these different options and variables And there is no perfect Government system, but there are systems that are better suited for game theoretical models For example, in the United States, they have a better game theoretical model than Canada because If you look at the United States from a purely objective matter, they're not a democracy. They're a public Meaning they have constitutional laws that can supersede People's behavior like bad actors and certain democratic votes to go in that may go against the well-being Of all the states so they have certain veto power certain constitutional rights that can supersede democratic vote It's being tested. It's being tested. Listen. It's been eroded a lot Right, right. Like it's not a true republic anymore. Not even fucking close, right? Like not at all States don't have independent power anymore Now there are current systems today that have a pretty And they're small so you have to take it with a grain of salt How does this evolve into a nation of for example, Canada you could actually At least for our size and people. I think the meaner and culture like context context context You look at uh, Switzerland and how Switzerland's created Switzerland is created by essential governing government that's responsible for security It's responsible for standard goods and that's pretty much it then you have something called cantons in switzerland These cans cantons are initially city states in switzerland Each city state has a veto right To supersede against the central powers if they misbehave each city state has Independent constitutional right to dictate their own laws and rules Own taxation rules own anything rules That means each canton has to be very strategic in not Utilizing their playbook in a bad way Because let's say canton a Decides to put taxes up to x1z Canton b decides to put lower taxes Citizens will just go i'm going to drive an hour ago live in canton b So it's a game theoretical model if i do something there's a reaction to it So everyone has to keep everyone checks and balances As well as each of them has a veto right in case the federal government or the national government Decides to misbehave in a certain way they can come in And actually have a say into it So it creates checks and balances and also works how nature tends to work in nature There's not a hierarchical government on top like a dictator saying everybody behave this way right context Naseem Talib has the best saying I'm a communist with my family I'm a socialist with my friends I'm a conservative with my province and i'm a libertarian with my country Hierarchal right context matters context context And so I think for us to keep checks and balances with a centralized government I would love to see toronto become a city-state where torontonians benefit I'll give you an example to happen in about two years ago and I have no idea if So let me run The toronto council voted in favor of toll boots. I believe somewhere on the dvp I have no idea. This is good or bad. So I never looked and I have no idea, but they voted right Ontario provincial government came in and said no Well, well, what the fuck we're the one you and I pay taxes. Maybe it's good for us. I have no idea But let's say it is why aren't we allowed to put our own toll boots on here? Right, why aren't we allowed to dictate how certain taxes are created in toronto? Why do we need the ontario government to tell us how to live over here? Right, right. So when you create city-states, you create competition That's the key Check some balances because let's say toronto starts creating it really bad rules And then all of a sudden like you have mississauga like hey, well no income tax in mississauga Where do you think I'm fucking tomorrow? I'm moving to mississauga, right? And this united states kind of had this like texas doesn't have income tax Florida as well. You see a massive exodus right now from new york and california to austin texas or texas in general Like they're having a boom Businesses are moving there real estate's like Fucking skyrocketing No state tax You know property tax the same as here or whatever right but like income tax like right. Why not like shit. I'm in So the city-state is hard. I think beyond a city the size of toronto Well, singapore's a city-state size of toronto But I mean in the context of ontario in canada like we have a massive portion of the population of the country So it's it I can see why and I mean that's why to go back to the dvp example I mean that's exactly why they don't allow us to do that because it benefits us And even though we have to pay to maintain that stuff. It doesn't benefit The people in the suburbs. Yeah, but people in suburbs will be city-states as well They they compete you can't you create game theoretical competition. That's the whole point It's not just toronto a city-state mississauga's a city-state Timon's a city-state berries a city-state every city's an independent county Right, right, and I'm saying is like with the dvp. That's why that happened Was because they they the voters They're not going to screw those voters over and that it's very simple the direction that we're taking or going There's only one way this is going to end We're going to be bankrupt And the government's going to grow and nothing's going to get done It's going to get more poor polar polarizing polarizing And nothing's going to get done like ontario Has what the population of like Eight nine million people give or take california has a population of canada plus Have been wearing more debt than california ontario Um, you can only print so much more money Till you have hyperinflation You see it right now. You see it all around us Taxes go up every year Rent goes up every year buying power decreases four or five percent per year So i'm gonna end well at all Right Yeah, how how do you to go back to the government in the growing of bureaucracy? Because I see this happening with old companies make it easier to fire people in the government. There's the answer Is that it's so bad? Is it that simple? I mean even like you think like it's the ibms and stuff that like have grown into these big monoliths of Just almost stopped not even not even slow anymore They're just almost because they're pretty much a bank And yeah or banks google's a bank when people look at google as a glorified ad agency. That's a bank That's sitting on 400 billion dollars of cash And we still think of them as agile No in some ways i mean more agile than I don't I don't consider them a real tech company the only other cool thing you're doing But it's a subsidiary of of google so it's not really google run is deep mind their ai But it's not part of the google DNA like that's a complete subsidiary that they bought and there's an independent team So make it easier to fire people in the government. That's a simple thing That you can change tomorrow Is make it easier to fire people. Yeah, you it's almost impossible. So the that breeds incentive models of like Non-performance you you actually attract the worst people to those positions. That's the thing You track very low hanging vampire type of people to those roles because they don't want to perform Oh Oh, so I can get paid 80k a year and do nothing in full benefits. I can never get fired One of the most dreadful cities in this country is Ottawa Like people are like, oh, it's beautiful. It's like 80 percent of the I know you're just walking around It's like it's just like a whole bunch of like every nobody has any personality They don't care. It's just they just they all they did was focused to get a job They couldn't lose and now they just Just don't want to rock the boat. It's like man. This is this is for to leave Also said the two biggest addictions on the planet number one is heroin and number two is a salary Fair enough, right? So never tried heroin. It's been a long time since I tried a salary. Yeah Actually, I never got into it. I never did here. I did a lot of drugs, but I never did heroin Yeah, that was smart. I've done most of them, but not that one. Yeah, exactly And I don't even know like I guess I don't remember turning it down I don't think so was really around When I was back then like coke and coke and ecstasy were like the thing that was there Yeah, like right at the peak of the crazy 90s Yeah, yeah Cool man, any last things I don't think so man. It's been a blast. I look forward to where you're gonna bring this. Oh, yeah crazy stuff I know people are wondering where they came contact you So best resource for that The website for the podcast hack the entrepreneur dot com and spotify YouTube anywhere you find podcasts You could just track it down there. And if you want to just say hi twitter's the place Cool, man. Awesome guys. If you guys enjoyed this podcast, go check it out on iTunes and Lipson. It's gonna be around everywhere So well, this is on youtube as well and look forward to having you on again And enjoy guys. Peace