 Vice President Yemio Shibajo calls for a replacement of state of origin with Certificate of Residence as he calls for social cohesion and unity in Nigeria. Also, reps, panel summons Abu Bakar Malami and Zainab Ahmed over alleged payment of $200 million to consultants and they threaten arrest. Well, this is Plus Politics. I'm Mary-Anna Collin. Vice President Yemio Shibajo has called for strong consensus among elites, urging the implementation of a policy framework that will promote social cohesion and unity in Nigeria. Now, regarding the settlers and indigens dichotomy, the Vice President called for replacing the Certificate of Indigens with a Certificate of Residence or birth, insisting that such a move would promote cohesion. Mr. Shibajo also called for stronger and more equitable justice that will treat all Nigerians equally, regardless of tribal, religious or ethnic affiliations. The Vice President also called on the media to de-emphasise issues that promote ethnic and religious profiling and urge them to report news that would unite Nigerians. Well, here we are discussing this tonight. Joining us is Sherron Shobitan. He is a political analyst and a public affairs analyst. Thank you so much for joining us, gentlemen. Mr. Tobatele, I'm going to get this name right before the night is over. I'll start with you, Mr. Tobatele. Interestingly, this is not the first time that this issue has been raised. It probably has come in a different type or shadow, but this is not the first time that this kind of call has been made. So what makes this difference and why should we pay attention? This, however, is coming from the Vice President at this time. So we're listening. He is known to not be trivial, if he's sane. And before the show, I was actually asking myself, what does the Certificate of Residence mean? Well, it's a purely administrative tool. It says, I am here, I pay tax, and all the things that tax entitle me to, I should be able to get. He doesn't say that the bones of my ancestors are under my feet. That would be a certificate of ancestry. He doesn't say you were born there. That would be a certificate of birth. A Certificate of Residence is a purely administrative tool that says, I am a socially responsible citizen. And as a consequence, I am entitled to all the things that are entailed to me by doing that. Saying that it's just a mere administrative document. What exactly does it change? Because if the President is saying that this, the Vice President, Rebecca Pardon, is saying that this will one way or the other, foster some level of cohesion. How does that happen? I'm not too sure about that. If the Vice President is my senior, so I'm not going to say this is wrong, but I'm not too sure that cohesion is what Certificate of Residence will give me. For example, I could have a Certificate of Residence thing in Igles State this year, and have a different one in Zampara the next year, because I was paying tax in Igles State this year. But this next year, I moved to Zampara, which is not just around the corner. And now I'm paying tax in Zampara, because I'm now resident there. That doesn't say anything about cohesion. It says about administrative entitlement. Shagun, how does this translate to the attitude of the average Nigerian to his fellow Nigerian, for example? If I meet you and you tell me your name is Shagun, for example, Shagun is known obviously as someone from the South West. But if you tell me your name is, for example, let's say Duke, it's very difficult. And so I'll ask you, where exactly are you from? Duke is almost an English name. Of course, we always want to know exactly where people are from. So what does this whole statement or strategy that the Vice President is pitching, how does this change the way we relate to one another, especially when it comes to ethnicity and indigentship? You know, I think that, first of all, it's a good thing that the Vice President is thinking along these lines. He has shown himself to be a man over the eight years of this administration to be a man that seems to understand what the fundamental issues are. And unlike many of his colleagues, he's not afraid to speak at those issues. So not minding the fact that he's Vice President. So I think it's a good thing that he's talking in this direction, but I don't think that what he's talking about is the solution to the problem that he's trying to address. The problem, like you said, the problem is one of social cohesion. It's one of interaction between citizens of the country that is a devoid of those traditional fourth lines that we have, usually, and they're usually two major fourth lines. That's the origin and the religion. And you find that, look, all in all, in the overall, the average Nigerian really does not have any issues with his fellow citizen on the basis of where they're from. These things always come into play, typically when it's political season, usually around elections. And then there are some other issues, regardless of the electionary period or not, where indigentship versus residency might come into play. For example, when you talk about catchment areas, quota systems, and all of that, maybe in the administration of botanies, scholarship awards, and stuff like that. Now, my view is that these things will pale into insignificance if once our political leadership delivers good governance across point. Regardless of where you live, if you have a regular and steady power supply, regardless of where you live, if you can play good roles, regardless of where you live, if you can control your movement from your house, your commute to work, for example, if it's controlled and it's the rest of disruption that we currently experience because of bad roads and terrible traffic, regardless of where you live, if you have good quality healthcare that is affordable, then I tell you that most Nigerians, these issues will disappear. Let's not forget that anywhere in the world, you know, and you can check this anywhere in the world, whether you're talking about the United States of America, whether you're talking about the United Kingdom, you know, if you go to Germany or France, you know, South Africa, the issues of origin ship really don't ever truly disappear. And in any conversation, social interaction, you know, between citizens of those countries, they still ask themselves, oh, where are you from? You know, so if you go to the United States, you see two people, they're Caucasians. They still ask each other, where are you from? And somebody will say, oh, I'm originally from California, but I now live in Florida, you know? And that, it's normal, you know? So it doesn't really present a problem because they're not dealing with fundamental existential problems. You know, so our problems really here is because governance is missing in action and invariably every four years, these differences, so-called differences have played up deliberately and it becomes a problem. So for me, while it's a good thing that the vice president has talked about this thing, I don't think it's a certificate. Like my dear brother has said, I don't think a certificate is the solution to this, to be honest. I've addressed some administrative issues, for example, talking about catchment areas. So if I've lived in a place for 20 years, well, yes, I should, and I've paid taxes there for 20 years or say 10 years, or whatever benchmark or threshold you want to set, then I should be able to benefit some resources from that area as well. So maybe a certificate of residency will take care of that, but it does not in any way deal with the social cohesion issue that the vice president is talking about. I think we need to think more deeply about this and come up with a more coherent solution to this. Mr Tabata, tell me, I'm going to come back to you. Many have fought this idea in the past, even like I said, several other people have brought it up, maybe because they were not vice presidents, maybe that's why people fought it, but then of course, there are people who taught about the fact that, hey, this thing could affect us as aboriginals or, you know, as the owners of the land, as per our ancestry, you know, and some of them are saying this is a threat to our cultural backgrounds. What is your thought on this particular position? In 2020, the Household Survey, the Household Survey said that, and it's something we look back online, that the legal state consists of over 85% more of our households. It puts the evils at 3% and the households at the top of the 1%, and all the rest were other tribes. Nobody, it's almost fantastical to say that you could ship a massive set of people from one place to another to take over anywhere. It doesn't work like that. However, the concept of attachment area is real. We want to be managed by people who understand our pain, and so it varies a aggregation of people that look like us, as you know that would say, and those are the people that I want to manage my pain. That doesn't say that I'm exclusive, that doesn't say that on the other hand I want to take over from you. It just says that I understand if you're a senator, you want to be a senator in New York, for example, you have to live there for several years. Why? You need to understand their pain. You have to be part of it. That doesn't mean that you were born there. That doesn't mean that your ancestors were born there 200 years ago. It means that you're part of the community. So, as I said, the question of cohesion is the question of people actually integrating themselves with society. If you take a train from Toronto to Vancouver, the train takes about three days to do it. You will come across several provinces, and as you go across the provinces, you will find settlement of all sorts of European people that came there, that aggregated in a particular town or whatever. They want to be together. Human beings want to be together. A statistic of the residence he just says that I may not be part of that original collective, but I'm part of you because I've paid what is needed for an administrative point of view and as a consequence, legally I have those rights. It has nothing to do with cohesion. It just says you cannot deny me because I'm different. You cannot deny me because I have only one leg. You cannot deny me because I have pink hair. You cannot deny me for all sorts of reasons that I'm not just ethnic because I am a paid-up citizen of this community. I am part of this community and history is a completely different thing as is ethnicity. I want to talk about the importance of unity and cohesion in our country right now because at this point in the country's existence you obviously mentioned a bit about what we experience here in Lagos just in the thick of the elections and the kinds of messaging that we got from people that you would consider as somewhat let's say people look up to. But then how important is it for us to have this conversation about cohesion, about unity even though we see that politicians only throw it around when it's convenient at other times we really don't hear them say stuff like that. And then of course the Vice President mentioned the fact that the media needs to making sure that their programming is positive and talks about unity but again the media does have to report this when issues of hate arise. Not reporting it does not it's not existing does it? Politicians and religious people are adept at social engineering. We tend to forget that. They wouldn't be where they were unless they were very good at social engineering. And every four years from a politician's point of view and every Friday or Sunday from a religious point of view they try to put us where they want us to be they are preaching a message and they want us to follow. The question is do we have to ask why they are doing this? Who is actually benefitting from the message that they are sending out? Because it is very very easy to whip up sentiment whether it be religious sentiment or whether it be ethnic sentiment and the question is who is benefitting from this? It tends not to be the people that you've whipped up it tends to be, as I said a religious person or a political person who has been it for their own agenda not the agenda of the matrix. Is this particular strategy being pushed by Mr Vice President capable of relegating or reducing the scope of tribalism and ethnic divisions and I want to know if we adopt it I mean it's just a piece of paper but then it's a start of something but let's talk about us how ready are we to embrace the concept of unity the concept of de-tribalisation the concept of being Nigerian first before being whatever else you want to be I'm sorry that was the chagrin So I don't think I think that there is a major requirement for national development that our governments, successive governments have continually reached out for since the days of the military the last time we had any kind of genuine national orientation campaign you know, in the days of the general Papangida in the MAMSA days and what's the name of that agency there our national orientation agency has been practically more important since 1999 so this question that you raise I think has two elements unity would come from a sense of loyalty a shared sense of loyalty to the national question so I will feel a shared sense of brotherhood with my fellow Nigerian when I am proud of being a Nigerian you know, so that is one aspect the other aspect is, so that will happen you know, you'll be proud to be a Nigerian you'll be loyal to your country when the country works for you and vice versa, so you work for your country your country works for you everywhere, whatever manner, whatever way you want to talk about it so that's one element the second element is that you don't have to be deliberate about programming how people think what they are thinking about how they are relating with these issues and I think that's where the question of national orientation comes in I thought that yes, I thought that we need the major opportunity in 2015 when you know, President Mohamed Wari became president because he came on a wave of a general wave of acceptance and hope and in that moment if whatever positive messaging had come out of government people would have accepted it so I had advocated at that time repeatedly that the national orientation agency needed to be funded needed to be significantly enabled in terms of capacity to drive a messaging from government to the people in terms of how they should see their country in the days of President Wublock, Jonathan you remember the good people great nation campaign that was from the information ministry as opposed to the NOA yes, yes I know so that was an example of something that was attempted in a deliberate manner to craft an image for the country and it's something like that that I'm talking about so the national orientation agency needs to engage the services of professionals that would help craft a well-designed campaign that would drive the messaging of unity across board to Nigeria so on the one hand Nigeria is working for you and you are happy being a Nigerian and then on the other hand somebody is talking to you so it's like a product and marketing of the product so on the one hand the product is a good product it's working Nigeria on the other hand somebody is now marketing that product to you and telling you how you should feel about the product and the messaging is designed by professionals subliminal messaging direct messaging and all of that to guide how you feel and how you relate with your fellow citizens I think we need to move more in that direction than talking about this administrative document called certificate of residency the certificate of residency is a good idea but it has to be well articulated to talk about what qualifies you to earn that certificate how many years do I need to have lived is that a treasure of taxes that I need to have paid and so on and so forth until those things are defined then it's just an idea floating in the air it's a good idea but we need way more than that before I go to Mr Atobatele you make mention of the anyway one of those who's queried why the NOA has been so silent or almost non existent in the past almost 8 years but then we did see a video surfacing of the DG of the NOA saying that other ministries departments and agencies have taken advantage or taken over the job of the NOA and they are jostling for funds to do the job of the NOA as opposed to the NOA and so he now has to go from one ministry to the other to say this is our job you shouldn't be doing this and so again it looks like it's more administrative it's more of a political issue as opposed to these guys not doing their jobs the truth is that he is not performing he is moving a vacuum and that vacuum will be filled by nature upholds vacuums so anywhere that by nature by natural process air will rush in and take that space so what is happening what he is experiencing is simply evidence that there is a desperate need for orientation and since he is not doing his job since he is extremely anonymous in the national space you know these ministries will have to do what they need to do with regards to their own effectiveness because a national campaign a national messaging regarding whatever ministry you want to talk about is critical if the government is running infrastructure projects all over the country one of the biggest weaknesses of this administration we have said from the beginning is the very poor messaging that comes out of the administration the only thing you see is people that have turned themselves into attack dogs instead of simply educating and informing Nigerians so what the gentleman in the NOA is nature simply doing his job of feeling a vacuum that he has left back to you Adi let's talk about indoctrinations and some of the conversations that we have on our breakfast tables or dinner tables in our homes many pundits who have talked about this issue of national unity and cohesion have said that Nigerians have been extremely indoctrinated by these ethnic divisionary sentiments like over time we have dug a huge divide between us and other tribes or indigents and so it makes it very difficult for whatever messaging to get into the deep seated fabrics of our society but I want to ask you when do we even start to deal with this issue of indoctrination because it is deep seated whether we like it or not and you always find a way to show up when we have very little issues I think we do from the white president came up with a statement and the statement is very simple this gives you residency that's all you say if you drive down the ebaconic expressway and you go to the Shadamu Interchange and you turn left you are going into an area that they call the abracadabra if you turn right however you get into Remo and the Remo people will tell you that they are not in Jebus Jebus are further down the road but they are all from over state so where do we start are we saying that we are promoting our tribe are we promoting our state or are we promoting our country people we promote our pack animals they tend to want to gather with other people that look like them that have their own that feel the way they feel that is not to say that they are not willing to accommodate other people but they are first and foremost wanting to be with people that look like them during Covid we found this out people that we thought were highly developed started fighting over resources the Americans were fighting for the Germans and the French over Covid things over Covid whatever meanwhile they are all members of NATO we thought they were above such things but when it comes down to the nitty-gritty of it we are pack animals now the question is, is that a bad thing I don't believe it is a bad thing to have an identity doesn't mean that it's bad it's only bad when you want to use it and it's not a bad thing to do so when the President said this is a specificity of residency he says, look I may be a pack and you might be a dog but I am entitled to have food just like you are because this is what I contributed to this society that's all he is saying there is not a specificity about it but we are now talking about cohesion and I am saying that and be comfortable in our own skin, because if we can't be comfortable in our own skin, how are we going to promote ourselves as something that is unified? And the question really is that most times in our country, wherever we find ourselves, the minorities are sovereign down. We need to get past that, whether the minorities are women, whether the minorities are ethnic or groupie, whether the minorities are a religious groupie, we need to learn to live with each other. The Pacific Northwest doesn't do that, but orientation does do that. And talking about orientation, because you see, you made mention of something very important. Having an identity is not wrong. Appreciating our culture and where we're from is not a bad thing. But then, of course, when it's being used in a bad light, that's what the problem is. But are we capable of recognizing the difference and being able to flag it when somebody's trying to use it to divide us as opposed to it being some form of unity? That's what organizations and similar organizations should come in. They should be everywhere. And everybody that is promoting themselves does not need to promote the exclusivity of others. And once we understand that, for example, if there was an organization in Lagos State that promoted the different tribes that are in Lagos State as this is Lagos, that's not saying that anybody that comes to Lagos has to be one of those tribes. But if it's recognizing that the people who live here, the people that are in the Catholic areas, this is who they are. Wherever you go, if you go to New York, there is an Italian section. In fact, in Toronto, as I said before, there are more Italians living in Toronto than any other city outside of Italy. They're a large community, same with the Greeks. We have a large Nigerian community in Atlanta. If people don't need to be assimilated, they need to be, but they don't want their identity either to be lost. Why would we need to be lost? Why would identity need to be lost when I can be part of the community? And do what my civic duty is inside that community as a minimum and acclimatize myself to the community as a next step? In closing, Shergon, let me come to you because we're almost wrapping up. What all that we've talked about today, because we've looked at the problem statement, we've looked at the problem in itself and we've addressed it, but let's talk solutions. Do we see this phasing out sometimes soon in the nearest future? Do we see us embracing unity in its entirety going forward, especially when it's about around election season? Well, so I have always thought that there are certain things that you cannot let go. So if you take this issue of ethnicity and all the things like that, you find that in some places, for example in Rwanda, they went somewhere down this road where asking for a state of origin on any form became a leader. But I feel that such measures might be more plastic than real, might be plastic surgery, window dressing. And for any reason, some of those divisions were to ever come up, I suspect that you might find that the underlying issues still remain and some underlying resentment might still be there. So I think that it's not something that you can legislate away in terms of talking solutions. For me, there are two major solutions. One is long term and the other is medium term. The long term one is Mr. Vice President, Mr. President, Mr. Governor, Mr. Senator and the House of Reps member and all the other political office holders in Nigeria. Deliver in Nigeria that works to Nigerians. Then you find that to a very large extent, they will not worry about where anybody is from. They will all love each other. The reason there is so much anger and hatred apparent, supposed hatred in the land is because the country is not working for the majority of Nigerians. And then the second one, the medium term one, is the campaign, is the programming, the messaging and all of that. And that's where the National Laurentiation Agency comes in. I think that the Vice President will do well to speak to that issue as well. All right, I want to say thank you, gentlemen, for having this great conversation. Tonight, Shagu Shopitan is a political analyst and he's of ACT Network. And Adi Ato Batele is a public affairs analyst also. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for being here. For having me. All right. And that's it. We'll take a quick break when we return. We'll be discussing the House of Representatives summon of the Attorney General of the Federation and the Minister of Finance. Stay with us.