 Welcome to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe, producer and host of the chats, and today my guest is Goddess Moon O'Neill in California, Los Angeles area. What exact town are you in, suburb? I am in Orange County. Oh, behind the Orange Curtain, or so I've heard. Yes. I am in the Red County of the Blue State. Got it. Okay. So Goddess Moon, tell me a little bit about where you're from and a bit about your family. I am originally from Baltimore, Maryland. I was born into a West Indian family from the Caribbean island of Trinidad and Tobago. My mother is from there. My father is from Durham, North Carolina. How those two met, I have no clue what a match. But yeah, I was born in the summer of 79 and had a pretty good childhood for the most part, you know, grew up within the West Indian culture and community. And so it was a very good life, but a very sheltered life. I didn't really realize how sheltered I was until we moved to California and it was like, oh, this is how the rest of the world lived. Okay. Well, building on that a little bit, when we were preparing for this interview, you said that you at some point came to terms with not having grown up in a traditional American black household. What does that mean? Well, like I said, I didn't realize how sheltered I was until I came to California because I grew up within the West Indian, the Trinidad culture and life. You know, my family lived within like a 20 mile radius of my house. My house was a house everybody went to for Thanksgiving and Christmas, you know, I lived across the street from a Roman Catholic church, which is where I was raised, the faith I was raised in and opened my front door and there's the door to the church. Like I didn't get away from it. The way that I was raised, the culture I was raised in was very different from a traditional black American household. Color and race is not a thing within the Caribbean culture, at least the one that I grew up in. It's a classism than race. We're more about what's in your bank account and what you can afford and your children going to the best schools and things like that. And so the fact that my family in color and melanin of their skin ranges from pasty white to darker than me, so skin color was never a thing. I didn't learn until I was pretty much an adult that my grandmother was born a slave. So slavery as a part of my identity was not a thing. You know, it was just a fact, but it wasn't put upon us, you know, grandma was a slave. And it was part of a random conversation the adults were having. And us younger kids were like, back up, what? How come we didn't know about this? They're like, oh, we never told you? Well, it's a thing. And I'm just like, okay. So it was, you know, it was a fact. It was a thing. It was a part of her life, not our life. But you also lived in Trinidad at a very tumultuous time. Yes. When I was, so my mother and I moved to California when I was about seven, eight years old in that transitional time was rough, you know, spent a lot of time sleeping on floors or couches while we, while she was trying to, you know, get situated and get stable. And so she decided to send me to Trinidad to live with some family because I would have more stability there than with her at the time and she could work on getting herself stable for me to come back and live with her. And also their education is higher than ours, you know, and things like that. That's what she wanted. She wanted me to have a good education. And so I moved to Trinidad to live with an aunt of mine. And while there, they had a coup. And the Muslims led by Abu Bakr decided that they did not like the current government and decided to take it over. Um, they very much didn't have the security that even we had back then. Um, we're talking like 1990, 89, 90, you know, nobody could just walk in the White House at that point. They had stopped that. Um, but you could walk in, you know, their version of the White House was the Southern White House. And the, the president was having a meeting with some people and they walked in and took it over. And yeah, that was a very, very interesting time for me, you know, being this tiny little American child who has never been through something like that or anything even remotely close to it. It definitely left an impression on me. How long did this last? Um, I believe it lasted for like a month or two. Okay. Okay. But as like, you know, an eight year old, it seems like forever. You mentioned PTSD. What, how had that affected you? When it comes to conflicts and especially political conflicts, I would rather just not be a part of it. Um, that definitely is a, is a stress trigger for me. Um, large crowds, I don't go to, you know, marches and rallies and things like that as much as I would love to, because I, I do think of myself as an activist. Um, I just can't, you know, I just, it, it is a physical response to, to, you know, the possibility of violence. And I would just rather not be in that situation. And also I, I'm not really sure what my response, what my body's response would be. Should I go to a march or a rally and things turn violent? And so I just don't put myself in a situation. Um, like I said, I've not been back to the island since coming home from living there. Um, it gives me anxiety just to think about going back. Um, and I am working with my therapist on that just because I, I, not to say that I'm planning on going back to the island, but I would grab, I want to work through the triggers and things like that and try to work through all of that. But yeah, it's definitely, it definitely left an impression on me. Coming back to, uh, Baltimore in the 60s, you mentioned that, uh, things happen to your father as a result of, uh, racial tensions in Baltimore at that time. Talk with us a little bit about that. So my father was, um, actually not in Baltimore. It was in a dorm North Carolina, where he lived, um, you know, the dirty South, uh, where racial tensions were a lot higher than they were in Baltimore. Let me tell you, um, but my father, you know, was just doing his thing, going about life and two Caucasian gentlemen, um, were on the same path as him, but going opposite ways. And back then it was very much, um, understood that if you are a person of color and someone of non color is walking on the same sidewalk, you would move on to the street. And for whatever reason, my father decided he was not going to, and, uh, there was a confrontation, there were words. Uh, one of the gentlemen spit on him, another pulled out a knife. And the ending up of that was my father went to jail for murder. Because the gentleman who pulled the knife, my dad took it away and, you know, there, uh, somebody did not make it out alive. And that was not my father. Um, and, you know, somehow, some way they were able to get him out. He didn't serve a lot of time for it. Um, but that was another thing that I didn't learn until I was well an adult, um, that my father, you know, was a convict, was, you know, had gone to jail for a crime. And I was like, why don't you people tell us that? They're like, because they're, it's number one, it's that person's story. And number two, it's not, it's not a defining moment in their life. It's just a part of their life. They don't, you know, they don't make it a statement. And I was like, okay, fine. I understand part of that, but still, y'all need to tell us things. You know, it's, it's, you, you want to know these things because they're part of your history. Yes. But for them, it's like, eh, it happened, we survived, move on. But it brings us back a little bit to your grandmother. You mentioned a little bit ago having been a slave. You, you did mention she brought some very fine life smarts to you. Tell us a little bit about what she taught you. I learned, I didn't have my grandmother for a lot of my lives. I did have, but I did, I do remember, you know, just having someone there who taught me to not let the negative in life affect who I'm going to be as a person. You know, she, she was a woman who was born a slave, you know, did not live her life as a slave because slavery was abolished about that time. But you know, it was born a slave, worked as a long dress for the jail, you know, had eight children. Okay. I had to get, you know, she had eight children that she had to raise, you know, her husband worked for the US Navy. And so during, especially during the time when my mom was born, we were in the middle of World War II. So she had to take care of all of her kids by herself while her husband's all fighting a war. Not sure if he's going to come home, you know, she, she had to make do with what was available and what she could afford to have in order to make sure that her children were fed, were clothed, were, you know, all of these things and make, you know, during that time, there were off the rack clothes, but most of your clothes you made. So, you know, she's also having to deal with that and having children who are school age and having to make uniforms and, you know, all of that stuff. Like she never, she never made us feel less than she never made anyone feel less than she always wanted those around to feel equal. You know, anybody come to the house, there, she might not be able to give you money, but you would get food. Always make sure there's a pot of food on your stove for when somebody comes, you can at least feed them. And those are definitely lessons that I've taken on throughout life. And also, she wasn't one for, for playing games. Like if she said something, she meant it and that was it. A story that my mom had told me that I remembered because I was talking to a friend of mine. My mom, if you said you were going from home to point B, you better go to point B. If you're leaving point B to go to point C, you better tell it because if you go to point C and something happened, she doesn't want to hear about it. And my mom had told her that she was going to one location with some friends and they never went to that location. They went to another location. And on the way home, everybody, including the driver fell asleep in the car and it tumbled off the road into her ravine. My mother broke every bone in her body, including her neck. Oh, she survived though, but she was hurt and was taken to the hospital. They called my grandmother to let her know. My grandmother was like, where was she? Okay. And hung up the phone. My aunts and them found out what happened and they went to visit my mom in the hospital, you know, bring her clothes and food and help her, you know, during her recovery. My grandmother never stepped foot in the hospital. Oh my God. Not a day. But that's the person she was. You did not, you lied to her. And as a result of that, you hurt yourself. Well, fix yourself. I didn't tell you to go there. You didn't tell me you were going, so it's on you. My gosh, okay, but you did mention that your mother moved you to California at some point, and that that was a big culture shock for you. Tell us a little bit about that. That was an absolute culture shock because, like I said, I grew up within the West Indian culture. There were West Indians all around me. There were, you know, Americans and different other cultures, but I grew up heavily in the West Indian culture and the West Indian mindset. So coming to California. What is that mindset? What is that? It's a very laid back mindset, but it's also a very family centered, family oriented mindset. We have, you know, traditions and rules and things like that that are very different from Americans. When you go to somebody's house, you basically kind of don't do anything unless they tell you to. Like, you know, you may come in and they'll be like, oh, have a seat and sit on the couch and you don't touch anything. You need to go to the bathroom. You ask. You want something to drink or eat. You ask. A lot of times you don't ask for anything to eat, but you will be like, can't come and get a glass of water. If they, you know, invite you into their bedroom because you're having a conversation and they need to like, you know, change clothes and stuff like that, which friends do a lot of time. You would go into the bedroom, but you just stand over in a corner. You never sit on anybody's bed. Shoes do not go on beds. Shoes do not go on anything but the floor. You take off your outside shoes. You put on your house slippers, things like that. Hats don't go on tables. It's there's a lot of traditions and superstitions, the things like that, that's just part of everything. Like, yeah, uh, and it's, and it's interesting because. And also, you don't just go over to somebody's house. You have to be invited to their house. Doesn't matter how long you've known that you don't just show up at someone's house. You have to be invited. Uh, a friend of mine who's also, uh, from a West Indian culture, we knew each other for a good two years before the first time I went in our house and a good portion of that time, we used to spend outside in one of our cars out front of her house, just chilling and talking. Wow. And her front doors right there, but we never went in. It was just, that's our culture. That's how we do things. And it never crossed my mind that it was weird or strange. It was, it's just what we do. Yeah. You know, so coming to California and, you know, when we moved, we moved, we first, uh, moved to Fullerton and the neighborhood we lived in, there were a lot of kids, so there were a lot of kids around and everything else. And I remember the first time one of the kids came to our front door and our front door was open and we had like a little gate, metal gate thing. And it was closed, but not locked. And he literally just like walked in the house and was like, Hey, can you come play? And I'm like, what are you doing in my, get out of my, and he was like, what's wrong? And I'm like, no knock, no, can I come in? You just walk in my house, you know, so those kind of things and, you know, the, the racial strife and, and differences and, you know, oh, we don't talk with these people for, you know, reasons. We don't hang out with these people. I was like, why can't I talk to them? Oh, because they're so himself. And I'm like, and I don't get it. Like, but I don't get it. Like, you know, did they do something to you? Well, no. Then why am I not talking to them? Those kind of things like never made sense to me. Seeing, you know, obvious, racial differences and, and people, you know, these people hang out together and these people hang out together and these people hang out together, but they don't mix. That was another thing for me, because like I said, my family, our skin tone runs the full gamut of skin tones that are available. And so I never understood why, you know, there was a bunch of white kids over here and a bunch of black kids over here and a bunch of brown kids over here. And they weren't mixing. And then you may have like a small cluster of kids over here who, you know, they were all different and they were mixing, but nobody else mixed with them because they were the weird group, like, and I usually mixed with the weird group because I was like, I'm just going to hang out with people who are cool. And we'll talk to them. I don't care your skin color or, you know, your nationality or whatever. But that was a definite culture shock. And I asked my mom and she was like, well, you know, some people are like that. I hope you're not like that. I didn't raise you to be like that. But, you know, if people are like that, just leave them alone. And my mom came to that kind of way because my mom moved, moved to America in the 60s during the civil rights movement, you know, she was, she came, she started out as a nanny for a lawyer. And then he helped sponsor her and then she went to nursing school and worked as a nurse and was working as a nurse in Baltimore when Martin was, the king was assassinated. Okay. So she went through all of that, you know, but like again, like my family, I didn't learn about this until I was older, you know, I was like, why y'all need to tell us things like this is information I need to know. That's fascinating to me. And she's like, ah, it's, you know, it's life. It's what you went through. I'm like, yes, but it's life. That's fascinating, you know, and I, and I wish that as the younger generation, we knew that the older generation has stories and we just need to ask them to get those stories. Because, you know, as the younger generation, we kind of expect our older generation just to tell us things. And, and then, you know, that person passes away and all of those stories are gone. And then the rest, the rest of the family is like, oh, yeah, well, you know, grandma used to tell us about this or that. And you're like, tell me more. They're like, I don't really remember. And you're like, why didn't I even know to ask? So that's the thing that I definitely, you know, I'm thankful that when I did hear stories, I would ask, but I would get information, but I really wish that I knew more and that the older generation would just, you know, set us down and tell us the story. Yeah, because some of us really want to know. Was there anything that really stands out for you? One of the things that my mom during the time right after Martin Luther King was assassinated was she was working as a nurse and they were kind of put on security. Like they, if they were working three days on, they worked and lived at the hospital for those three days. Oh, they didn't do the back and forth like everybody else does. They went, they did their three days and then they went home and they were transported by police for safety. Yeah, because, you know, businesses were being destroyed like Baltimore burned when Martin Luther King was assassinated. And that's where she was living at the time. So she, you know, she had to put a little black square in the front window of where she was living to let people know that, you know, a black person lives here. Please don't destroy it. You know, she definitely, you know, dealt with the, you know, she she had to deal with some of the racial issues of that time. When she was back when she was a nanny, she was, you know, a part of the group where, and there are pictures of it. And when I saw pictures of it, I was flabbergasted of, you know, the white woman would go into the store and the black nannies would or the health would be standing outside waiting because they weren't allowed in the store. My mother went through that, you know, stories like that. And I'm just like, that is insane. Yeah. And also the the it made sense to me because heck, heck company, which is a company that used to be back on the East Coast. I don't know the the conversion of whatever store they are today, but my mom never set foot in the stores because they were one of the last businesses to segregate, to integrate. Sorry. Oh, it's yes. They were one of the last business after, you know, segregation was abolished. They were one of the last stores to integrate. And my mom was like, I don't need their business. They don't need mine. She never stepped foot in their stores. And so, you know, it kind of puts perspective on that thing for you. You know, my we we had several of my cousins who graduated high school and wanted to go to universities. They came and lived with us while they went to university. And one of my cousins did very well in school and graduated first in her class or was graduating first in her class. And then the university contacted her and let her know that there had been a mistake in the record. And a dawn person of color had had actually made two points more than she did. And so she would not be graduating valedictorian. And my mother was very much I don't think so. And so my mother called the NAACP and the ACLU and somewhere I do not know who has a picture. If anybody has the picture because it was used to hang up in our house. There was a picture of my mother and these two gentlemen standing in what looked like an office. And I saw it close to my childhood. And finally, I was one day I was like, who are they? And my mom was like, Oh, well, that's Jesse Jackson and that's Al Sharpton. Oh my gosh. And I was like, what are you doing? Because my mother's standing in between those two in this office. And she goes, well, and she told me the story. And she goes, so we went to the dean's office and basically made them show us the proof and they really couldn't. And so your cousin is the first black woman to graduate from the University of Maryland, Chapel Hill, valedictorian. Wow. I was like, okay, that. So that happened. And I was alive and I remember that there was some kind of something going on during that time. But nobody tells the children anything. Like, monumental historical events and you don't bother telling the child. If it was me, I'd be like, come here. Like, you know how she's been going to school? Well, she did very well. And so she came number one, but they're trying to take it away from her. So we're working to get her back her number one place. That's what I let the children do. That's what I let the child know that like, this is happening. Yeah. Because it frames the mind. It frames the story. Yes. And no, they waited until you're older or you're inquisitive and ask a question. And it's like, I love my family, but they're crazy. Yeah. But coming a few steps ahead now to the Leather King community, tell us about, I'm not sure how to pronounce it, O-C-L-A. And how did you discover that? I took a human sexuality class in college and the professor would have people come in to discuss or answer questions on the different topics. So like, when we talked about homosexuality, she had people from PFLAG and the college's Gay-Straight Alliance come in and talk. When we talked about porn, she had porn stars come in and talk to us. All the different topics that she was able to get people to come in who were living whatever we were talking about, she would have come in and then we got to King and she had members of the local community come in and basically what would happen is they would do like, everybody would have like five minutes to kind of go through like, this is how I got into King and you know, kind of thing, their spiel. And then we would have question and answer time and then we would take a break, come back, and then it would be show and tell where they would bring out some stories that they liked or that they used often enough or that they thought would be interesting to ask and they would talk about them. And one of the toys that was brought out was the electric splice water, the old one, the one that if you touched it, you got zapped. Yes. Not the new ones that saw it. So he brought it out and he was like, if you would like to try it, raise your hand and leave it up there. And so he went around and zapped everybody and when he got to me and he zapped me and I went, do it again. And he did and at the end of class, the teacher was like, there's some people you should meet. And that's how she introduced me to OCLA, which is the Orange County Lother Assembly. Okay. And I started taking classes and workshops. And this is back during the time and it sounds so weird to say because like, you think like, when you say like back during the time, it was like many, many years ago and things like that. But this is 1999 when this happened. But it was back when, you know, everybody had a steam name. Yes. And it's the goddess moon. Like everybody had a steam name. Those who didn't was like, okay. So you're the trailblazer, good for you. But like everybody had a steam name, you know, play parties and things like that were in people's homes. And you had to, you know, you had to be heavily vetted before you even knew about a play party or like got invited to one, you know, you, you, I was fortunate enough to meet a lovely woman who, who took me under her wing and I started at the bottom. I was her submissive, you know, color submissive and for three years, I did the thing. You know, it took me a year and a half before I picked up a toy to do anything more than clean it and pack it. You know, I learned how to pack her toy bag. I learned how to, you know, put together an aftercare bag for her and I, you know, I learned how she liked things to be done. I definitely learned service and I found that that is something that I'm into. I'm definitely, I'm a service bottom. I'm not submissive or slave. I just, I don't have it in me to be either of those things, but I'm definitely a bottom. I like things to be done to me and I'm definitely service. But I went through all of that. I went through it kind of how it was traditionally done. And then, you know, she started teaching me how to do things and it was like, you know, you start here and then you learn how to do this. You learn how to do this. You know, you work through it and at the end of it, I was gifted my leather boots and sent on my way because she was actually looking for a service submissive and I was not submissive. And so she was like, I don't have anything else to teach you. So I am sending you on your way into the world to do and learn and continue on your journey. And I will find somebody who works for me. And I was like, okay. So yeah, that's how I started back in 1999. All started from a human sexuality class and I started in the leather community. And it just happened to be that's where I started. I could have easily started in the kink, the more hetero kink community, but I started in the leather community in Orange County and kind of was very like, this is a cool thing, but it's not who I am. It's kind of what I'm doing and I'm kind of learning. And so I went through that. I think all of us do at the beginning. It's the, we find it and we're like, yay. And then, you know, we start, we hopefully find someone to mentor us and kind of guide us. But we all go through this period where we believe that kink is not, BDSM is not who we are. It's what we're doing. And so we can put it down and walk away and go about our lives. And we do and then we find ourselves back into it and then we walk away again. And some of us, you know, it's a once or twice. Some of us, you know, over 10 years of just going back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. And then you finally find your village. And that's kind of what happened with me, but I was back and forth, back and forth. And then a friend of mine was working registration for Don Con and she'd been bugging me for a couple of years to come. I was like, I don't know, you're working. I don't know anybody else. And finally she was like, just come. And I was like, all right. So I went and it was, they had just moved to the LAX Hilton. And so I went and I had a good time, you know, took some classes, you know, walked around the vendor hall, but I was by myself. I didn't know anybody. The one person I knew was working, you know, she didn't have, you know, time to like hang out with me. And I was out front. I think it was day two, or it might have been the first day. I was out front of the hotel having a cigarette. And this woman, a very tiny statue, but very long, slowy red hair, came bounding out of the hotel with all of this energy. And she was like, whew. I need a cigarette. And she goes, do you have a lighter? And I was like, yeah, sure, here. And I added her my lighter and she lit her cigarette. And she goes, thank you. She's just bouncy, bouncy, bouncy. And she's like, I'm Alyssa. And I'm like, Moon? You know, I'm like, who is this lady? And what does she want from me? And she was like, that's awesome. Are you near here? And just, you know, kind of just this grandiose energy. And, you know, we kind of talked for a little bit. And she finished her cigarette like really quickly. And it was like, all right, gotta go. Talk to you later. And like, bound it off again. And I was like, okay. And, you know, so I went to the play party that night. And, you know, came back the next day and saw her. And she was like, so how are you doing? Everything good? Big brother, that and kind of bound it off again. And I was like, please. And then went to the party again that night and saw her. And, you know, kind of thing. And sometimes during that weekend, she introduced me to a couple of people and I was like, oh, hi. And I got to meet all of these people by their, by who they were as people. Not their sonas, not their reputation, not, you know, their name. I got to know them as, you know, Dan and, you know, Oh, and Melissa, and all of these things, you know, she was like, Hey, you know, it was great to see you this weekend. I hope you take a round, you know, come we have play parties. We have events. We have chill days. You know, you should come hang out. And it took me like a month or two to go back to sanctuary. And I did. And I went to a party and, you know, started going to different things and meeting these people and talking to them and saying, hi and everything else. And then I don't remember, I think it was just a regular play party. And the, um, actually it was called passive arts back then. It wasn't that far. And the passive arts crew used to go in the big back room when everything was like slowing down to closing and they would close that door. And everybody else got shoot out and they would just kind of, you know, be there hanging around talking chilling. And, um, it was at the end of a party and I knew that they were like, you know, starting to get everybody out. And so I walked in the back room to say goodbye, you know, being who I am. I'm like, right, well, bye. Thanks. Everything else. And, and Mr. Melissa was like, where are you going? And I'm like, oh, the party's over. And everybody's like, get in here and close the door. And I was like, are you sure? They're like, yeah, come on. And that was when I started hanging out with the passive arts crew. And, you know, I still knew them by their, I started getting to know them as their person. And then I think it was the next year, Don Khan, I was outside. And by then I knew the crew. I wouldn't say we were like awesome friends or anything else, but I knew the crew. And I could hang out with them and not feel awkward. We were at that point. And it's just Melissa comes down and out as she does. Red Bull in one hand, cigarette in the other, you know, litter, cigarette. And she's saying, she's like, all right, I got to go because I got this, and I got that, and I got this, and I got that. Good. All right, talk to you later. And back inside, you're just like, you get used to it after a while, you're just like, that's who she is. And somebody goes, do you know her? And I'm like, well, yeah. And they're like, you know, Mr. Melissa? And I'm like, her? Why? What's up? And they're like, do you know who she is? And I'm like, she's a cool person who has way too much energy. What you trying? And it was, and it was at that point, like I started getting to know her son. And personalities and reputation. And finding out that like, oh, this person, you know, nobody calls him Dan, they call him Master Erika. Nobody calls him, oh, they call him, you know, Master Orpheus. You know, you know, entropy and Master entropy and Mr. Melissa and all of these things. And I was like, I've been hanging out with these people for a year and I had no clue. I'm such a goober. You know, but that's, I was fortunate in having that opportunity because if I had known their personas before getting to know them, I never would have gotten to know them. Because I'm very much that person that's like, you're on a pedestal, you stay there and I go run away. And so I'm very thankful that I got to know them. And, you know, Mr. Melissa is my sir and my mentor and love them greatly and miss them. I wish they would move back for it, but I'm very thankful that, you know, these people I got to know and become friends with. And it definitely helped to round me in a space. Because up until that time, I was going in and out of the community and then out of the scene. I was back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. This is what I do. It's not who I am. I can, you know, leave it, whatever, whatever. And it wasn't until I found a group and within finding that group and having some kind of like solidified space, I also then started in my personal life finding people who were kinky. And then what has now become my village, my family, you know, I have a leather family. I have, you know, extensions of friends and families who, you know, because I found this, I found the past of arts group and they accepted me and invited me in. And it kind of gave me a space to flourish and to grow and to just be. Like I didn't have to do anything. I didn't, you know, I could just be with them that it allowed me to then kind of start putting together the pieces of, oh no, this is actually who I am. Like, you know, I after that, getting into like, you know, doing things and things like that, I would say it was about three or four years into, you know, actively going to parties and helping out and doing things like that. I had a year where financially I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't do the things financially. And, you know, life was happening and I just, the things that I was doing, I had to put on hold and I didn't attend Don Con and I didn't attend any events. I didn't, you know, really hang out and I lost myself. And I was sad and I was depressed and I just could not settle in my own skin. And that was the turning point for me of realizing, oh, this is who I am. This is part of me. And by taking away that part, I'm not whole. And so that's when I started realizing that, like, even if it's just going to a play party and hanging out and socializing. You were twice a title holder. You were Ms. Sanctuary Leather 2015 and Ms. LA Leather 2016. Tell us about being a title holder and those specific titles. Being a title holder is a very interesting part of life. It, I would say it equates to being a celebrity. Like if you want to have an equation of vanilla life to kink leather BDSM life, being a title holder is like being a celebrity in that you're all of a sudden thrust into a spotlight, whether it's just your local community or bigger, you're thrust into the spotlight. You know, everybody has assumptions of who you're going to be, how you're going to act. Everybody wants a piece of you, any which shape or form they can. And then there's a certain select group of people who hate you just for the fact that you're a title holder, that you're a celebrity. And will do anything in their power to bring you down. You have to be ready for that. You have to be ready to be put on a pedestal by some and put in a trash by others. And if you cannot be okay with that, don't be a title holder because it will ruin you. And I've seen it happen to people where it is absolutely to ruin them who they are. And it may be it who they truly were as people came out because of being a title holder. I don't know, but I have seen it ruin people. Me becoming a title holder is a very crazy thing because I never, I started in the leather community, but really and truly my growth within BDSM was through the kink community. And then I started finding myself getting back into the leather community, just based on who I was with and who I was hanging out with and things like that. But I didn't consider myself a leather person. Even though the things I was doing, the people I was around, the events I was attending and assisting and things like that and supporting were leather events and were leather people and things like that. But I didn't make the connection for myself. My title mother, Shay, for the sanctuary contest, is a lovely woman. And I can't say no to her, hence why I was a title holder. I knew a lot of title holders like, you know, my sir, Mr. Sponza, Narya and Amy, the Ch'Amy, you know, Shay was a title holder. There were a lot of title holders around me. I never really knew what the title holder, what the title system was about. I just knew the people that I knew were title holders and that they were amazing people who did amazing things for our community. And that was it. And then Shay spent three hours talking to me on the phone one night about how I should become a title holder or I should run for her title. And I was like, no, I'm not title holder material. That's not who I am. I'm the behind the scenes. I will help you. I will support you. I will do the things I don't stand in the spotlight. No. And she's like, think about it. Let me know in a couple of days. And I was like, I just said no. Like what? No. Well, no. And then I went to talk to, I talked to my daddy. I talked to Narya. I talked to my sir. I talked to a couple other people, both title holders and not title holders. So I'm considering doing this thing. What do you think? And all of them basically said the same thing. How can we help you run for your title? And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. I've not decided to run for the title. I need to know what are your thoughts on me running? And all of them were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, how can we run for you? How can we help you run for your title? And I was like, is nobody listening to me? And I sat down with my leather sister. And I had earlier been trying to get her to run for title, but then her vanilla life just went crazy and she just quit. And so we're sitting, talking, and I am telling her like all of this, I don't know. And I'm not worthy of running for your title. I'm not worthy of representing sanctuary. That is my home. And, you know, I have some respect for it. And I'm not worthy. And she looked at me and she said, if you're not worthy, what makes you think I am? At that point, it was put your money where your mouth is. And I decided to run for the title. And like I said, I didn't know anything about the title system at that time. So I had 30 days to learn about the title system, to learn a lot of leather history, to prepare for a contest that I had really no clue what it was about, and do all of these things in 30 days. And I had a great support system who literally threw everything and the kitchen sink at me during my interview practice. They made me cry, like ugly cry. It was bad. But they said, hey, if we can make you ugly cry during your practice and you're calm and collected during your actual interview, you're fine. And all of these things, it had to put together a fantasy, which I was like, I don't know, what? I don't know any of this stuff. And thankfully had my family who was there to support me and be like, what do you need? How can we help you? And all of the things. And I went up and competed against some very lovely people. And during my speech, I had this whole 90 second speech written out. And the very first, like, small paragraph ends with me saying, and I now stand before you a strong leather woman. I said those words. I got a standing ovation. And I said, thank you and walked off stage. Only three people knew exactly what my speech sounded like. And they were all confused because they're like, but there's more. And my way of thinking it is, you get a standing ovation, you just shut up. There you go. Yeah. Let's not try to screw with this. You did say that your title holding tenure contained a lot of firsts. For example, what were a couple of them? Everything. Like everything that I did, standing on a stage, being in a spotlight, running for a contest. That was a first that I never thought I would do. You know, I was very much behind the scenes person. I don't want the spotlight. I'm good. I will help you. I will support. No, don't put me in the spotlight. So having to be that person, you know, having to speak in front of my mentor and people that I hold to that have seen in my interview and speak from my heart and be brutally open and vulnerable and, you know, not burst into tears because I'm afraid terrified of disappointing my mentor. Like I was gutterly terrified of disappointing her. And, you know, she did not make it easy because she gave me a very difficult question in front of my panel of judges, but I answered it honestly. I answered it truthful to myself and that's what was important for that. You know, I did not see myself winning my title, either of my title. I did not see myself winning. I went there to do the best that I could and to positively represent myself, my community, my family, and when they said, and the winner is God is smooth. Sanctuary, the photographer got my do not do the ugly cry face, which I probably it's worse. I probably should have just ugly cried. I look like I'm having an aneurysm in my in my winning. Because I'm standing there and I'm like, File, don't ugly cry. You're fine. That's the photo that was taken. I was in utter shock. I could not brain. I could not brain. I'm very thankful that I did not have to say word after winning because I've seen that. I've seen other titles where the title holders have to make some kind of like congratulatory speech for winning. I am very thankful that neither of my titles made me do that because I could not brain. My brain was not working. I remember my sister screaming. That's my sister when I won the sanctuary. She was so happy. She was so supportive and having that support system, having my family there was amazing. I got to, I had done a pride parade very early in my coming out as bisexual. But then being bisexual during that time in the 90s was very difficult. The straight community doesn't like you because you're not straight enough. The gay community doesn't like you because you're not gay enough. The lesbians won't date you because well, you've been around dick. You know, it's just that whole kind of thing. And I got tired of defending the right to be a part of the alphabet and walked away. I literally just walked away from the gay community. And that was the time when I began being really and truly a part of the gay community and doing things with them because they didn't care. Well, you mentioned that you had very strong thoughts about the perceived image of female title holders and how do you see that? When I started being a title holder, I realized that there weren't a lot of female titles. And female title holders were not very welcome in a lot of spaces. Women weren't allowed or welcome in a lot of spaces. That has greatly changed since my title years. Was I a part of that? I don't know, maybe. Hopefully, I hope that I was a positive, you know, a positive in that change. But I think that it was just time. It was just time that things changed and things changed radically. And, you know, a lot of the people who were not okay with women being in their spaces were not so gently told to shove it. That it's not their choice. They weren't told by women. They were told by other men. You don't like it. Go create your own space. This is what you know. And I think also a part of that was we weren't us women. We weren't coming in, claiming anything. We weren't claiming space. We were just there. And we were quiet and we were supportive and it just kind of happened. And once, you know, one title had a female title holder, and then there were a couple others who would see it and be like, why aren't we doing that? And then, you know, they would have female titles. And then a couple others would be like, why aren't we doing that? And, you know, it just kind of snowballed into that. So that now we have started to include a next title, which I think is amazing and wonderful. And then let's define it for any audience that may be watching this. Oh, MX titles are for non-binary and gender non-conforming folks in our communities who do not, it's basically for anybody who the title of Miss or Mr. does not sit with them. We now have a mixed title, which is an MX title. Which I think is an amazing thing because I do know a lot of people who would be amazing title holders, but do not fit the Miss or the Mr. titles. And there are a lot of titles, including the titles that I held that, you know, and a title that I'm very supportive and thankful to be a part of their family. But they say that, you know, are you willing to have the conversation under that title? So before they had like the MX title included, like, you may not identify as a Miss or you may not identify as a Mr., but are you willing for one year to have the conversation? Yeah. And if you were willing to do that under either of those, then you could run with them. Yeah. They weren't, you know, looking forward. They weren't going to look in your pants. They don't care. Like that's not what they're for. And I very much respected the titles who kind of ran that way. Are there titles that are specific and very gendered? Yes. And they hold their place. I'm not going to say that they, you know, should not be allowed to happen or be. I am a very, I hold very true to, you know, speak with my feet, speak with your pocket. If I agree with something, I'm there to support you. If I don't agree with it, I don't have to support you. Am I going to, you know, go out of my way to end your contest just because it is not something that I agree with or that, you know, would be supportive of me? You know, once you're not hurting anybody, you know, that's, we're allowed to have, you know, separate events and things like that. I wholeheartedly believe that we can have our own spaces. But what we need to make sure that we're doing is not only if we have our own, we make sure that there's space for everyone. So that those who aren't able to be in those specific clicks, they'll have a space to be. What's the biggest misconception about you? One of the things that I definitely heard about myself that people assumed was that I was all about myself, that I was very self-centered and anybody who actually knows me or gets the, or takes the time to get to know me is that I am very not self-assured or self-centered at all. I'm very concerned about, you know, how I'm perceived and whether I'm good enough to, you know, have the positive accolades that come at me. I am a warrior. I worry about everything and about everyone in my life. So, yeah, those are misconceptions, definitely. But, you know, I'll take it as you will. Well, God us from us. Thank you for such an amazing interview. I'm so glad we were finally able to meet and do this. And I'll look forward to meeting you in person sometime soon.