 I think maybe without further ado, let's call the meeting to start. Welcome to the Monday, February 5th, 2024 development report for the city of Montpelier. I Meredith will go over staff remote procedures. That we don't have it in here. Do you want me to do that? Or do you want to introduce members first? Um, either way, uh, starting over on the right. For them, Rob Goodwin, vice chair, Meredith Crandall, staff, Sharon Allen, chair. Captain Burgess, board member, we have 2 on remotely. So, Joe, Brian, if you want to take turns introducing yourself, Joe Kiernan, board member, Brian, you got to unmute yourself, Brian. Oh, there we are, Brian Jones, board member. Great, thank you. So, staff review of remote meeting procedures. Okay, so I think everybody has seen this in far. Alrighty, so. For anyone who is viewing tonight's development review board meeting via working media, you can participate in tonight's discussion via the zoom platform. I'm using either video or telephone access options. If you want to have the full video experience, you can type this into your link here into your web browser. And then I will get a notification that you want to get into tonight's meeting. Your other option is to call into this telephone number and when prompted, type in this meeting ID. And again, I'll get a prompt and let you into the meeting. If anyone is trying to access and is having problems, please email me at mcrandallatmontpillier-vt.org. For those attending via zoom, turning your video on is optional. We do ask that you please keep your microphone on mute when you're not speaking. This will reduce background noise. And reminder that the zoom chat function should be used only for troubleshooting or logistics questions. The only people we have on right now remotely are Orca and DRB members. So I'm not going to do the whole lengthy spiel. Just a reminder that in the event the public is unable to access tonight's meeting and I would get notification of that via email. Then it will need to be continued to a time and place certain on now hand the meeting back over to the chair. Thank you. Has everybody had a chance to review the agenda? Make a motion to accept the agenda as printed. Second, all in favor. I. So we just have one application from us this evening about a installation of a new 8 foot tall fence. Anybody you're going to be just fine. Justin and anybody else who's also interested in testifying if you could raise your right hand now. You only swear to tell the whole truth. Nothing about the truce under the pains and penalty of perjury. Great. Maybe interested in disclosure. I just wanted to mention that I live in the same neighborhood. It's not the not adjacent to, but it's. It's within the previous do you feel that you feel that you have any conflict? I do not. Does anyone else have any concerns? Okay, thank you. Do you want to just jump in with it? I mean, I think your staff report was very clear. Yep, and just a lot of good information, but it was thinking maybe just as that you could just describe the project briefly. Sure. And then we could kind of go through what staff report said and what's going on there. Sure, we have an existing 10 foot fence. It's an 8 foot panel plus a 2 foot lattice on. No, I'm just can, can everybody hear Justin? I just want to make sure if he needs to get closer to the microphone. So we have an existing 10 foot fence about 70 feet in one direction about 10 feet in another direction. I think it's eight panels or 10 panels that it's a privacy fence and ceiling reason it exists. It about Jerry and Susan's yard did not always but Jerry and Susan's yard because they weren't always living there. It is currently 8 foot panels, like I said, with a 2 foot lattice above. So, and then it's off the ground by about a foot to prevent rotting on the bottom of the fence, because it's essentially right next to a small little creek, more like stream. Stream is probably a better word for it. And it's in disrepair. As you can see in the pictures, it's in really bad shape. It needs to be replaced. I would like to replace it with something of similar size. We can't replace it with something that tall because they don't make 8 foot panels anymore. They just make 6 foot panels, but we want to have 6 foot panels that are off the ground. I'm sorry, they don't make 10 foot panels. They make 8 foot panels, but they won't make 10 foot panels for us anymore. But we need it to be off the ground a certain distance like it is currently, because we don't want it to just rot out. The only thing that's interesting about this project aside from the fact that this fence has existed forever and nobody's ever cared, is that it does slope downward. And so you can see that it is a pretty severe slope downward. That probably, what do you think, 7 foot drop over the length of the fence. And yeah, and you can see over the fence, essentially if you're sitting in our driveway and you're looking at the small, the lowest part of the fence, if it was significantly lower, you could see right into Jerry and Susan's living room. I actually just noticed tonight that there is a section of the fence missing. And I could stare directly into there, what I think is their living room. I'm just never outside at this time of night, so I didn't notice until now. But yeah, I mean, it's really, it's nothing except a privacy fence and work, yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about what, are you just reflecting the exact same way of the shorter panels or? Yeah, it's just going to be, it'll be shadow boxing. So shadow, like shadow, I think it's called shadow box paneling. So if you, so that's what shadow box looks like if you look up on the screen. So instead of the panels, it's just for wind purposes. So the wind can cut through it a little bit easier. And so it'll just last a little bit longer. It's really aesthetically, I actually don't particularly like it, but it's, but it's much better for our weather. It also has that design. Has the effect of softening the impact of the, of the wall-like effect that they stock in? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I mean, really, we have kids. It's not like we don't, I just want to be clear. And Jerry obviously knows this. We like all of our neighbors. We just have kids. They have grandkids. Right. And like, I mean, literally it's just for privacy. Um, that's good. Well, remember some questions right off the bat, or should we start the review of the appropriate steps we're taking tonight? Anybody want to say anything now? Okay. All right. So looking at the standards, it seemed like in general standards and special use standards that staff found, and I agreed as I reviewed it that the current use complies with 3001. The section where there is some question about, about the variance is section B on 301 101 E, and generally in its fences and side yards of six-week night, except for three potential exceptions by the board, where a higher fence is approved by the department development review board or required under these regulations for buffer screening or security purposes. And I think that that's the part that we talked about in the project on Vine Street, where everybody's very happy to have that buffer fence be a little bit taller and so that, so that the privacy factor actually worked there. So that sounds like a very similar issue to me. I think what's key to know here is that this is not a front yard fence. We've dealt in the past and that's sort of like a different criteria as far as the regs go. But you know, side yard, your rear yard, the board has a bit more leeway as to our discretion. Right. We're talking about the interface between two property owners versus a property owner and, you know, the public right-of-way, a much different situation. I can also say to the board, literally nobody will ever see this fence, except for the people that are basically on our driveway. Yes, I've mentioned that. You can't even see it. It has no impact on the public right-of-way. Yeah. Okay, so that was the story of only a vaguely sticky wicked here. It's not applicable. Like I said, I also agree that this felt very similar to Vine Street and that it's a buffer screening purpose and that that applies in this instance. There's a suggestion in here that the applicant will be required to remove the debris within 60 days since the project completion. So it's the demolition of the existing fence. Technically, that's part of it. It'll be within one day. You'll have easier to deal with. Okay. I'll just say as soon as possible. Indefinitely within the time period. I don't want to tie you into the one-day thing. Yeah, you can see there's debris there right now. It's just because we haven't found someone to take it. We don't have a pickup. And we just figured if this ever got approved, we would just do it all at once. But that debris itself is already pretty dangerous. We don't really want it there. Does anybody else want to say anything? Are you trying to speaking? Nope. Okay. Yep. Yeah, I'm Cherry Farrell and I'm his neighbor. And I love the idea. In fact, when they first talked about it, I'm going, yeah, I was really supportive. It gives them a little more privacy in us because we're sitting higher than he is. It's like you can see right down into where kids play in a region. And it kind of gives them a barrier for the kids, you know, so they're in a safe place. So I'm definitely in favor of it. Can I just ask you to spell your names? Oh, actually, if you wrote it on there, I can pull it off. Yeah, that's Farrell and F-A-R-L-E-N-D. Okay. Great. Thank you so much. Any further questions? Concerns? Issues? Motion? I can make a motion. I love that. Yeah, this is a very efficient meeting. I'll make a motion to grant a privacy fence exception to the usual maximum fence height of section 3101E, allowing the applicant's request for a 10 foot tall, 80 foot long fence at 28 Spring Hollow Lane as presented in the application and supporting and supplemental materials with the debris removed, you know, within a reasonable amount of time and 60 days. I'll second that motion. Okay. All those in favor or Kevin? Any vote? I vote yes. Rob? Yes. Yes. Yes. You unanimously passed. Oh, oh my god. I'm so sorry, guys. I don't know anything. They're on. I have them on my screen. Okay, Brian. And you don't know why it's not showing up there anymore. I'm so sorry. So, Joe, here, let me turn my screen so that the chair can see. Joe is trying to call us. Hi, Joe. How did you vote on that? Oh, frozen. He's voting yes. I just, I'm reading it from the text. Okay. Joe is voting yes. Hold on. I might be able to just turn on my personal screen. Hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm just turning on my personal volume. So, Joe, do you want to say anything? I did get your text, but Joe? Yeah, did you vote, can you verbally say yes? Maybe again and try it? He did text me yes. Yeah, he did text me yes. And I was able to read that. Brian, do you want to, let me go to chat and pop that out. So, Brian, if you're, if you can hear this, if you could either text on the thing or if you can respond verbally and we can maybe hear you, that would be great. You just say we have four and we've got four, but it's a frozen. Yeah, well, and we have Joe too. Okay. Your application is approved. Can you hear the volume? Could you just drop me an email, Mary? Yeah, so the written decision will be the official decision, but you've got the verbal okay, so feel free to order your parts. And then, because there's no conditions, when the written decision is ready, also issue the zoning permit at the same time and there'll be another one, there'll be a blue notice card to place on the property that gives people who might not have shown up tonight the 30-day appeal period notification, but yeah, I'll let you know when that's ready to be picked up versus relying on the mail. Thanks. Thanks, Mr. Supervisor. Thank you. Let's... What happened? So weird. I don't know what happened here. Yeah, we still need to do other approvals. I don't need to do the meeting. I just don't know if we're waiting for the meeting or not. Yeah, well, that's... I'm not seeing, it's just waiting for those to start the meeting. This, because it's not, it shouldn't be the third meeting, it should be the first meeting. You logged in to the wrong one. February 5th. That's so weird that that just booted out. Yeah, the zoom crashes. That laptop is really old. Like really old and outdated. Oh, ooh, ooh. Recording in progress. Back in this room, is the room still getting warmed back up? Brian, can Brian and Joe, can you guys hear us now? Are you, do you see us again? I can hear you again. Brian? Brian, you're muted. Can you say hi? Yeah, oh yeah, I just missed that. I was, hi guys. I was just typing. I have just regained sound. Yeah, we were having some technical difficulties here when the central computer in council chambers, which is the oldest computer in this whole room, crashes out, then I can, I'm still keeping the meeting running, but our sound all goes screwy because it all, all the microphones and everything feed through there. So, nothing about that. Let's talk about previous meeting minutes. There are meeting minutes from 1-2, 2024. All right, so the motion passed then? Yes, the motion passed. The motion passed because we did get your vote, Joe, in the chat. So, we had enough. And we had enough here for him, too. So, yes. He got his approval for his fence. Thank you. Sorry for the hiccup. Thanks, Rob. Although we don't have four members present, present for the January 2nd minutes, Alex wasn't the last meeting and had no objections to the minutes. And it's also we changed the rules of procedures. Also, yes, okay. That we approve this without four members that were at that meeting present. So, I motion to approve the January 2nd minutes of the DRB. Second, anyone? Catherine, you were there. I will second it. I wasn't there, though. Catherine was not there. You don't see any typos. Yes, I totally could. It's okay. We've got, I enjoyed learning about the meeting whenever the minutes. Rob, Sharon, and Brian were at the January 2nd and Rob, Kevin, and Brian were at the January 16th. So, what just happened? Let's just have a minute for them. That way, I think I touched the mic. Okay, can you? Well, no, but mine somehow freaked out. Well, I'm happy to second if that's helpful. I think that's great. Yeah. I hope that both Joe and Brian are still hearing this. We're looking for approval of the January 2nd meeting minutes. You can vote. Though I wasn't there. Yeah, you can vote. Yeah, I mean, it's fine. Anybody can vote. You don't have to have been at the meeting. Yes. So, it's a shot change. All in favor of approving the January 2nd minutes? Aye. Any objections? Okay. The same. I was not here for the January 16th, but as we pointed out, that is not necessary. Has everyone reviewed those minutes? Okay. Pulling it up. Oh, no. We have another copy there. I can make a motion to approve the minutes. January 16th. Second. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Okay. So that takes care of the minutes. I love it that we're back in the room again. That is so amazing. I think it'll be easier when there are more participants to be able to see them kind of here, sort of offline. Screen attendance gets on with it. Rob is like, I love it. Oh, no, I'm on a screen all day. It's great. I just, yeah, I do like it quite a bit better. So that's great. Is there any plan to replace the computer in here? So we've got to wait for, hopefully by May, we'll have consultant reports on the multiple options, right? Because it's a full review of City Hall Fire Department and Police Department. Okay. And factoring in what other city-owned places might be able to move people to, but it's a big picture reorganization of how we use all those spaces and how to make downtown ones flood resilient, which also then goes into, how do we spend the money from FEMA and insurance funds? So, yes. It's a small piece of a loop. I got you. Yes, it is a plan to have, wherever the meeting rooms end up in, having the technology upgraded at that point, I believe, because there's a decent chance of this room will not be a meeting room. Right. Um, is my, my hope. Because, you know, I kind of like an office again. Um, so, yeah. Okay. Thank you. I'm still working across the street at the, uh, police station. Planning, the, all of the planning department is in that small community room in the police department. Yeah. The PD, the planning department. Hey, we're very secure. It's now, right? Yeah. So, our next meeting is going to be on a Tuesday, February 20th. It actually won't. We have no applications for that day. No. Which, which, what they, the February, second February meeting on, that was going to be on Tuesday because we've got what is the holiday president's day. So, we were going to do it on Tuesday, but we have no applications. So, possibly we'll not see you until March. So, unless the board wants to meet on the 20th, for some reason, other than an application, the next meeting would be Monday, March 4th. Well, I'll tell you, how did that happen? I was still back at Thanksgiving here. Um, yeah. Well, the 20th is also a Tuesday, right? Yes. Because it's the president's day. Yes. Great. So, I think we go for the, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Fourth, yep. No, I will ask Meredith, are we going to ever, um, I know I'm not able to come to the hearing next week. I know that's, I'll observe also it's on Valentine's Day. So, I wonder if it has to be really a die-hard person to attend? It's, yeah. So, you're talking about the zoning, right? Yeah, I guess. So, I guess just observing that's next week, I was curious if we're ever going to do like an additional briefing or anything, just for the board? Briefing would be a welcome. Yeah, I think. Yeah, just to get the highlights, really. Yeah. Okay. I could, so by the time we meet on March 4th, that will be all done. Yeah. Hopefully. I mean, there's two scheduled public hearings, the 14th and the 28th. Um, and if City Council can approve the changes on the 28th, then that would be great. If they don't, then they have to wait till after any new City Council members get briefed, all of that stuff happens. And, you know, continue the public hearing process. Okay. So, um, if you wanted a briefing, we would need to meet on the 20th, probably. Oh, I know. I don't think we're on the 26th. To have everything. Or I can do an email that has, I mean, that has some of the highlights. Uh, I guess my other question is like, yeah, there, you know, it'll be over on the 20th, so the regulations will be updated. Uh, the 28th, hopefully. Okay. And when will they go into effect? Well, so technically, I have, we have to apply them to any applications that come in after that public hearing got warned. So any new applications coming in, I'm reviewing under two regulations and the next staff report you get would be applying both of those and give you a little rundown on that. I guess I just want, uh, when it's final and it's approved down with a full copy of it. Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, that's, you will. Oh, yeah. So, you know, when, when we know it's been, it's been approved and will be going into effect, we'll be doing full printed copies for everybody who wants them. Um, you can go on our, our zoning regulations page right now and get the links to the, the public hearing notice that gives sort of a brief rundown and see the full text of the draft and red line. A lot of the changes are things that are flowing down from what the legislature passed last session. Right. But we're, my players also trying to go further than that. So, um, up to four dwelling units would be a permitted use throughout the city. Um, there's a. On any line? Do regardless? Um, yeah. Okay. Regardless of density. Interesting. It would, um, because they're really, as long as it has sewer and water, city sewer and water, right? If you're, if you're out in rural and you don't have city sewer and water, you've got to deal with the density as you. Um, the residential, I think it's 24,000 zoning district has to go away because of the change, the state house, um, with, uh, the like minimum lot size issues. So, um, that will all get moved into a new, what we'll still call res 9,000, but is actually like 8,000, however, many square feet minimum lot size. Um, we've also tried to bring some equity into things and that, um, there will be like three tiers of dwelling unit rankings for whether it's permitted or conditional of uses. And then there'll also be three rankings of congregate living so that small congregate living will be treated the same as one to four dwelling units. Um, so if you have a congregate living situation up to like 3,000 square feet, it's permitted use, um, everywhere, same as one to four dwelling units. So that, you know, how the, how the living arrangement is situated, you're not distinguishing so much in where it's allowed. Whereas right now there are times when, you know, one small congregate living situation might be a conditional use, but you can still have up to four dwelling units whether it's permitted. So, um, the office, yep, the office thing has been fixed, um, so that there's the the personal and professional services definition has been updated. Um, there's also a big revamp of the sign regulations, um, and a complete overhaul of the demolition provision and dealing with how to deal with historic buildings and demolition. That means it's more than massage. It's a, it's a, that one's a completely new change with different avenues for how you deal with a building or a big section of a building that it's looking to be demolished. All right. Um, I think those are the highlights. It's, it's going to be, it's going to be an interesting, interesting thing. There's also completely getting rid of residential density limitations if a building or parcel is within the design review district. This was a recommendation. Can't remember from what organization, um, like a year or two years ago. Yeah. So that if it's in design review, you don't worry about residential density. You still have your limitations on building bulk massing height plus the design review all comes into play from the external. Right. Um, but you don't, you know, we wouldn't control how many units say a historic building gets. Yes. Right. You can have micro units, lofts, whatever. Right. Um, and we wouldn't worry about how many units are in there. That. Right. Well, that's a little different. Um, that's, that's a little different. Uh, remember, Mike Miller worked in Berry for a long time. Or died. But, but what that also you know, leaves things open to is, um, having the market sort of deal with that aspect and the building. Right. You still have to comply when you're building code. Sure. So it's, there's, there's a lot of hopefully good stuff that gets passed. So kind of give us a mini briefing, right? Yeah. I think it may as well. Um, I knew that we talked with them up. We get it out of it. So do, do go to the link that I sent everybody to look at the details because I can't, I can't talk about everything, but those, that really is the highlights of everything that's going to hopefully be changing. What parking has become a, not going to have parking regulations? No, no, no, we, I, I think that's still there. I think that's still there. So the, the state has adjusted, you know, has mandated that for dwelling units, you don't, um, require more than one parking space per dwelling unit, but that's what Montpelio was already at. And most of our downtown doesn't have that as a requirement anyway. I know that, I know that hasn't worked necessarily all that well in larger metropolitan areas. I think we will see out of this town right now. Um, it's, but I can't imagine if you're coming to deal here. Yeah. No. So, so, you know, the, the urban center zoning districts, and I think residential 1500s, that's the, the tightest residential district. Um, in those currently, there are, there are no parking space minimums. Right. Um, and so that seems to be working fairly well already. Um, there had been discussion about getting rid of parking, minimum parking requirements, but that didn't end up going through. Um, outside of the downtown. Yeah, outside of what we already have, expanding that beyond the downtown. Um, and the, the highest density residential did not move forward. Now somebody might bring it up at city council. Right. City council is the meat grinder. Who knows what's going to come out of that? We don't, we don't have any control over that. Um, so we're all, all interested to see what happens there. Um, but the proposal right now does not change those. And you're getting pushed back on the Valentine's date or? Oh, well, that was, so that wasn't the plan. Originally, the hope was Valentine's would be like the second meeting or something like that, but, um, city council just couldn't get to it till then. And we're really, you know, like I said, if we hit elections, it's going to push everything out even further to get the changes made. Um, so, um, we got stuck with the dates we had when city council was meeting to try and get something approved before elections. Um, when we've got members that have been here through the whole process and already know what's going on. I'm sketched. Yeah, thanks for that update. Yeah, thanks for that update. You're welcome. Helpful. I'm sorry you're having to analyze things with two potential outcomes right now. It's what we think things at the moment are slow. You have no application next meeting. Yeah, you got rents today. Right. Right. Well, and even administrative. Okay, well, we get them. Yeah. Even administrative applications right now are slow. I think we've had a little bit of a lull as people are adjusting. But, you know, I'll take it right now because I'm learning Audra's job more. So, you know, I'll take the slow right now. And, you know, things all there's there's lots of things percolating that have been percolating for months that we're just waiting through September. Audra has. Audra will be retiring in mid-April. Oh, wow. And so we've posted for her replacement. We got authorization to hire for her job, which is really good because without her role, our department would pretty much fall to pieces. How long has she been with? Like 17 years. Okay. So public service about what people are still. Yes. Yes. The application period is open till March 1st. So please take a peek on our website and read the job description. Yeah. No, and she, I mean, you've been here long enough. She stood. She has stood in for zoning administrator position a couple of times when the zoning administrator is with vacant. She really would step up to the challenge too. Yeah. Yeah. And she has been the crime person on all of our flood hazard permits for at least 10 years, if not longer. So through at least two zoning administrators before me. So she, I mean, she knows so much. So I'm trying to try to grab all the pieces I haven't learned in the last five years as quickly as I can because there may not be a lot of overlap between her and the new hire. Well, good luck with that. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Once people have any other things to talk about, I would motion to adjourn. Second. And Paul, those in favor? All right. Thanks, everybody. We're off the we're tonight.