 of the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today we're going across the sea to connect with David Loverty in Chicago, Illinois, and Wilson Chu in Dallas, Texas. Several hundred miles apart, but we're coming together today, we're all friends. Both David and Wilson are very experienced and knowledgeable international attorneys. David is the principal of the International Council Law Firm. He focuses on helping clients deal with cross-border legal issues. And during the pandemic has been active with international distribution of medical equipment for healthcare providers. Wilson is a partner in McDermott, Will and Emery. He is an innovative and thoughtful attorney who focuses on strategic business transactions and has a dedicated interest in social issues and his community. Including being the co-founder of Alliance for Asian American Justice. I've asked David and Wilson to share their individual perspectives from Chicago and Dallas about life and law today. Welcome gentlemen. Hey Mark. Good to be here. Glad to be here. Good to see you. How are you doing? How are your things in Dallas, Wilson? How's it going? Well, let me look. I think it's somewhere around 103 degrees. So I think everything's just perfect. David? We have a much milder temperature today. Well, oh no, you know what? It's in the high 80. So that's too different. We just had a very successful Lollapalooza in Chicago. And we always welcome thousands upon thousands of people and it seemed to have gone off without a hitch and they renewed their relationship for another 10 years. So, wow, some people don't like that. They don't like the traffic, they complain, but it's great for our cities to have these big events. Well, it's good to have you both. And I know that from my experience with you, both of you are lawyers with lots of contacts and experience in the Asia-Pacific region. And I would first like to get your views on current events in that part of the world. What do you see as the major issues facing the Asia-Pacific right now? Well, we'll start with David and then Wilson. Okay. Mark it among the other questions. It's a challenging question. But let me try from a perspective of where we've been during this pandemic and how we have had less of that personal connection to the region. Look, the growth in the Asia-Pacific has been quite good. We might expect doom and gloom in terms of the numbers, but the region actually is doing quite well and a lot of legal activity has been up. Wilson, you're probably seeing a good chunk of M&A work and things look quite active. Some of my concerns though are related to the US in our relationship with the region. And I think that we're seeing the effects now, but we'll continue to see the effects of an inability to directly engage the way we had been among people like ourselves as friends getting together every year, every couple of years, business negotiations, conferences of various kinds. And it all adds up. And I'm concerned apart for the younger generation that didn't really have the experience that we have had. And they're coming into the profession and various roles a little bit more remotely. They're connecting through Zoom. They're experiencing the region in a little bit more of a remote sense. I would like to see the United States better and more vigorously engaged. China has been at an advantage as, I know we're gonna be talking about China more, but it is really engaged in a way that the US and our citizens up and down the food chain have been less so. And I'm a little concerned about our policies and whether we are engaged as we should be. And I think there are some problems in science with trade agreements, et cetera, but I think we need to do more to stay in the game in that region. So more people like us can have these great experiences if they go down their careers. So that sounds, you're talking both politics and personal and professional indications. And all of that has an effect on our relationship from the United States to Asia Pacific. Wilson, what are your thoughts? Yeah, okay. Well, first of all, I want to do the standard disclaimer. These are just my personal uninformed views. Okay, it doesn't represent anything of Ignorant or anyone who may know my name. So it's just to me, I'm the only one to blame about this. So for me, Asia Pacific, it's what they've talked about. It's just one word, it's China and how they're relating to the West, how they're relating to the other countries. What's going on in Hong Kong? How does it benefit or doesn't benefit the other countries in Asia? So it all boils down to what China is currently doing and what their goals are in the future. And I totally agree with David that we do need to engage better. I think the United States is a good influence in Asia and we should be there more and more vigorously. Well, you know, let's follow up a little bit on China. What are your thoughts about China? I mean, I have lots of friends there, a lot of attorney friends in China. What's going on in China right now? Why are, what's this about? We'll start with you, Wilson. Well, what's it, I mean, I think there's still, you know, there's some economic unrest, right? You have the Evergrande, the big debacle Evergrande, they said that could be even bigger than the Lehman Brothers. So it's a real safe bus. I've heard of protests around, you know, parts of China where people are saying, I don't wanna pay my mortgage, right? Because it's illegally foisted on me or whatever this is causing all these protests and it's just gaining more and more of steam and, you know, we don't get to see them, but now they're really able to organize, you know, on their phones. And so I think so. There are domestic problems in China and then, you know, there's a lot of raised awareness and concern about how China conducts businesses, call it. Okay. And so, you know, that causes external issues. This thing about Pelosi wanted to make a stop in Taiwan. You know, the life of me, I don't know why you wanna do that right now, but, you know, she did, you know, that causes a problem. I know we'll talk about that later, but like, you know, you know, is it, if you have internal problems, do you try to solve it with an external action? And so maybe this is a strategy of the Chinese government to solve internal issues with external actions is what you're saying. Or distract, or distract, you know. David, what are your thoughts? The interesting comments, Wilson and... Yeah. I'm thinking 20 years ago, you know, when going back to some of our shared experience with the Indo-Pacific Gar Association, and when China was just becoming a player in that economy, it wasn't that long ago. I was based in Korea in the late 80s. There was no China as a player in the economy. If you had Japan, of course, Hong Kong, Singapore, Korea, the place we call Taiwan, and we can call it Taiwan, do I okay? And China was just on the verge of taking off. And then those early days with the WTO and all about engagement, all about how we can work with China and how China can work with the rest of the Asian Pacific, the rest of the world, including the United States. And I think there was a lot of progress made. You know, a lot of those restrictions were very severe. Back in from the late 80s perspective, in early 90s, you were barely able as a foreign company to do anything in China. Say if you wanted an equity interest in a Chinese company, it was certainly a minority interest. You would be, I was involved in a deal at about 1992. Here is your partner. You don't really have a choice over who you're going to be working with. This was in a retail venture. So things had changed so dramatically and so much liberalization of the Chinese economy. I think some of that remains, a lot of it remains. So we tend to look at from a business in my own view, from a on the ground business to business perspective. The glasses still essentially have full. We haven't in any way reverted to those restrictions of the old days. Yes, there are problems. Yes, the IP issues have never gone away. The challenges of people, you know, companies doing business in China are very real. But here in looking at a Chicago business environment perspective, it's pretty doom and gloom in terms of how tough it is to do business in China and how much the Chinese are cheating and the game is stacked against foreign companies, et cetera. I mean, some of that is certainly not ill informed, but I think it's gone a little far in the opposite direction. You know, I find it really interesting. You can probably have some views on that. About, you know, the external strategy for internal problems. That's a really interesting thought, really interesting insight. I wanna ask you each one quick question about policy. And then I wanna go into what's happening in Chicago, well, in Illinois and Texas. But first of all, there is this threat out there that if policy goes to Taiwan, China will shoot down the planes. Do either of you, I mean, is that just for news? Wilson, what do you think? I think it's a self-inflicted bad situation. It just didn't need to happen. You know, if it was coordinated with a White House, you wanna send a message to the region that the US is resolute and all that kind of stuff. Great, but this seems so, so keystone coppish. And it's like a self-inflicted, why are you doing this? So, you know, and it backs China into a corner and they need to puff up, right? And then the US needs to puff up. And that just never gets, you know, never has a good resolution. You don't need to. There could have been a better way to handle it. Yes. David, what are your thoughts? No shooting down the planes. There's way too much at stake. And I'm not seeing that there are insane people that are working under the Chinese leadership. I'm not gonna start a world war over Pelosi's visit. I mean, the relationship still is incredibly important to both countries. Well, yeah. I'm stupid enough to destroy that right now. I don't think, I mean, of course, things can go out of control. One step can lead to another. It can lead to an unexpected response. And, you know, we can find, not predicted, but some things can happen. I just doubt it. Yeah, I hope not. Well, yeah, but it kind of goes along with what you were saying, Wilson, about the strategy. Anyway, right now I wanna go back and I wanna focus on your personal and professional lives in your respective cities and states. And, you know, these mass shootings that have come up, Texas and Illinois have both experienced mass shootings. Uvalde, Texas, Highland Park, Illinois. What has been the reaction of the people and the lawyers in your cities and states to these mass shootings? Wilson, let's start with you. It's disheartening, right? I mean, just, you can't, I can't understand people like this, but they're crazy people. They're crazy people. And from my view, and I'll give you, you'll probably say, of course, he's from Texas, but my view is, you know, it's people, not guns, all right? And then, so what? If he didn't have AK-47, if he had a knife, okay? Or he had a car that mowed down everybody in the parking lot, right? Would you ban cars, right? It's the person, not the thing that they used. And I'm sure other people have different views about it, but you gotta deal with these. There are some crazy people out there we had to figure out, you know, I'm off, you wanna do background checks? Effective ones, good. Apparently this guy should not have been able to pass it, but he did, and a lot of other people. But, you know, I think it's really a mental health, a big mental health problem. And like I said, remember in Wisconsin where it was during a Christmas parade when some guy drove his car into a Christmas parade and mowed people down, okay? They weren't blaming cars. They weren't blaming him either, right? David. Yeah, that's it. I appreciate your perspective, Wilson. We have had such a done problem in Chicago for 50 years, plus. And what I think people from outside of Chicago don't appreciate is that there isn't a single Chicago. It's two separate cities at least. There's the South side and West side sort of combined. And then where we lawyers and professionals and the private equity people, et cetera, live, it's on the North side. And then the Northern suburbs outside of Chicago. The South side has had a tremendous gun issue. You know, and I'd like to say it's a people issue, but it's the gun availability to solve all kinds of disputes, which are often gang issues, sometimes just out and out robberies, et cetera. And it's often within these communities against each other. What's been happening is that those issues have been seeping into the North side. And so the lawyers have started to pay a little bit more attention. Used to be that was the problem down there. And yeah, it's an issue, but as long as we're not facing it in the central business district, in the place where a lot of people, the professionals, et cetera, are living, there was an unbelievable degree of toleration for it. And it's not guns themselves. The education system is absolutely horrendous condition. Healthcare is horrendous. I mean, looking at the pandemic, the impact in those communities versus these North side communities, they're vastly different. So I think the big difference is, oh my God, it's happening on the North side, including now this incident in what's a very classic Northern suburb that many people have felt, even if the issues are creeping into the North side of Chicago, we're okay here. We're safe, we're prudent people, we live in a safe community, and those issues don't affect us. I mean, people are horrified. And I think there's a little bit of a step in the direction though of people realizing it's all of our issue. It's not a South side, North side, suburb issue, it's all of our issue. And I'm hopeful that it will lead to some amount of good, even though Chicago's had very strong gun laws comparatively to other parts of the country. These weapons come in from other states and other communities. What's good about our talk here is that we hear from people, you too, that are in each community. Oftentimes the news is, well, it's above the local folks. And hearing from each of you is really good. It's really important. And it's very helpful to understand each community. Now, is there anything being done in Wilson first, with respect to the Texas community in reaction? Has there been anything done in terms of smash shoes? Can I start with just a little bit about what David said about people are finally figuring out that we're all in the same boat? Yeah. Because back in the old days, if they could, the South side, they could just shoot themselves up. The songs were fine. I was listening to that go, well, that's wrong, right? And it's cultural, all this crazy stuff. And the gun laws, one thing about the school shootings. Okay, think about this. This thing called a gun-free zone, all right? You see these signs all over the school says, gun-free zone. So if you're a crazy, and you wanna do harm with a gun or whatever, whatever it is, right? Isn't that just the sign that says, come on, we're defenseless? I mean, it's to me, it's like a really dumb thing. We all want the same thing. Schools, safe schools for our kids. But the solutions and the priorities on those solutions, I'm just shocked at how bad those solutions are. I'll give you an example like, what are they doing in San Francisco? We have a homeless problem. So what do we do? Oh, we're gonna build housing for the homeless. Well, how much does that cost? Oh, about $800,000 a unit, okay? And you wanna house people who, by the way, don't wanna be in a house because they have rules that they need to follow. They had to be responsible. They don't want it. So, a lot of times I think, my friends are a little bit left of me. We'll have the same concerns and wants, but the solutions or priorities are vastly different. So, I guess, is there a solution? And David, what are your thoughts? Well, I am a little left of Wilson, which, I mean, we all are in Chicago. You know, Chicago is a very liberal democratic city and the state a little bit less so, but we invariably have Democrat mayors in Chicago, Mayor Lightfoot, Lori Lightfoot, who's a Michigan undergrad, I have to point out, even though she went to University of Chicago Law School, Governor Pritzker, Democrat. The solutions so far are pathetic. You know, trying, and Mayor Lightfoot and the governor, but the mayor is trying to step up policing in some of the central business areas, Michigan Avenue, where there's a lot of shopping area. We're desperately trying to stop incidents that are high-profile public incidents. Lollapalooza was heavily, heavily policed. The city wasn't going to dare let anything happen. You know, of course, it's out of everybody's control ultimately. But so there has been a more aggressive policing. There has been, there was a ghost gun ban that went into effect. So the governor signed an untraceable gun ban. I doubt it will do much good. There's just, there's so many guns in the system right now. We could stop everything for the next 15 years and there'd be enough of the supply floating around to get into the wrong hands. So I go back to the basic structure of these different parts of our country when people don't have economic opportunities, they don't have access to education, they don't have access to healthcare, there are issues that come up. That's a little bit of a different thing. That's more of an urban violence issue. I recognize there are also lunatics every place in the country that'll come out of the woodwork now and then. So it's a slightly different solution if you're in an urban core versus trying to stop the crazos from shooting schools or any kind of effect. David, I think you're absolutely, it's an opportunity issue. I'm a big believer in equal opportunity, not equal equality of outcome. And if you look at the public school system, somebody called it a government school and it gave me a completely different impression, right? It's a government school, but if you look at these kids, especially in the inner city, like you say, South Africa, people who can read at great level, few and far between, right? I mean, how does that happen? Cause we put in so much money into the school systems. How does that happen? And I think it really starts with the family unit. Okay, if you have a strong family unit foundation, all right, you have something to go. So what's the statistic? Like in the 60s, African-American family, 70% had a dad in the home, now it's completely flipped. Only 30%. And where's your role model to be able to act like someone who wants to be a good part of the community? So we have to mention though one initiative that they actually driven by lawyers initially and built by a lot of lawyers, many other people in the community, called Chicago Scholars. So go to these neighborhoods and find the kids who are motivated and have the potential and then mentor them and stay on them, get them into college and not just that to get them through college and not just that to plug them into the networks that have done help with their foundations and not just that, the ambition is then to put them into the leadership of the city, governments, corporations, law firms. And it's not going on for 25 years and there are thousands of kids who have come out of those schools for whatever reason they survived it and they're contributing already in very tangible ways to the city. Now, that's not going to solve the whole problem, but it's a piece of- It's a start, it's a start. It's good to hear about that. It's also good that I know that Wilson's done things similar and there may be divisiveness in the United States and you folks, both of you have said did different viewpoints, but we're talking. Which is good, I think. Now, we have about a minute left, a couple of minutes left, how's that? There's a lot of things, bad things going on in the world in the United States. And I'd like to have you each just take a minute. What gives you hope? What gives you personally hope for the future? And we'll start with Wilson and then David. Wilson, do you have hope? Absolutely, I have hope. I'm a glass half full kind of guy and I see hope in people. Hope in people who wanna try to do better, help others, if life is a buffet bar, they're gonna help others rather than help themselves. There's so full of people, I just am positive people. So I have a lot of hope. We have a lot of what I call fighting over first world problems right now. And it shouldn't be if you've been to other countries where they didn't have everything that we have, we'd be talking about other things, right? So let's all get together and stop needling each other over. You said this or you didn't say my right pronoun or whatnot, why? I have hope. David? Yeah, well, it's also a half full kind of guy. But I think I see hope in some of these kids that I'm seeing from the South side who are rising up through whatever challenge that they've had and absolutely becoming superpowers. And part of it is they have a grit. They've come through a lot, get them the right opportunities and they are not sitting around complaining about this, that and the other. They are taking things very seriously and aggressively. And I'm impressed with them. I've got a son now who's rising to sophomore college. And I am very hopeful seeing Alex's friends both from high school and his college friends who are thoughtful. They care about the world. I don't know how representative they are, but it definitely gives me hope to see that group. They're not just sitting around behind the computer screen. Well, you know what gives me hope is you two. Okay. And both of you and just talking about this and hearing about Dallas and Chicago viewpoints. Actually, it's very hopeful that you are both willing to talk and get it out there and share your views. So I want to thank you very much. And maybe you're, you know, the glass half full is getting full right now through this, through our talking. I appreciate it. So thank you gentlemen. It's good to see you again. I look forward to when we can meet in person sometime. But thank you for being together with me today. Mark, thanks for inviting me. And I hope that we get together soon so we can fill up the glass with more my techniques. Okay. I am in. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.