 Well, this evening we're looking at something that I know a lot of you have been asking us to look at and it's certainly a trend that we've also seen and I think more than anything want to understand whether you are looking to live in this kind of place, whether you're looking to, you know, rent or buy or certainly invest and this is something that affects a lot of us. We've seen it in the big metros and you probably want to have a really good sense and have your finger on the pulse when it comes to it. We're looking at how developers are meeting demand in residential estates. So a big focus is on residential estates and of course the role that developers have played some of the things that we're expecting but also some of the trends that we've seen when it comes to, you know, the residential estate scene. I want to find out from yourselves at home what has been your experience when it comes to the estates. So if you're living in an estate, whether you've bought in one before, rented in one, what has your experience been? Do share with us down here below. Also share which city? You don't need to share which estate because of obviously safety and we don't want to, you know, point too many fingers but share what your experience has been like living and certainly even doing business and by business I mean doing property investment in some estates and this evening to help us get a good sense of how developers are meeting the demand in residential estates. I'm joined by Louis Martin and Jamie Lee Garnam, who are both owners at Estate Living. Edis, good evening and thank you so much for joining us on the show. Thank you so much for having us. I, you know, I want to start with you, Louis. And first perhaps let's start with the trends that we've seen and that we've certainly seen in the past few years when it comes to residential estates and, you know, the evolution of the residential estate as we've seen it in South Africa. Yes, a great question. So, you know, as we discussed prior to the show, we, we seeing a, it's consumer sentiment that's really driving the evolution within residential community living spaces at the, you know, initially when estates were first formed, a lot of it was based on the need for security. So communities were developed surrounding sort of suburbs, joined some communities in some parts of Johannesburg and everything was very much about security, access, big fences, you know, sort of looking after our families and really protecting our assets. And what we found is that individuals that moved into these communities, you know, paying premium prices started to look outside of just the security aspect. They wanted to know what can an estate offer them from a lifestyle because it's not just about being safe. It's about having a good lifestyle, enjoying open spaces, spending time with your family and using the estate beyond just a place to stay, but rather a place to live. And what we saw over the years is that not only did the offering within estates evolve, so lifestyle offerings started to come into play. You know, we all know the traditional golfing estate. A lot of people don't play golf. Golfing estates come with a number of, you know, additional costs if not everybody wants to take on. So in-came lifestyle, so running tracks, walking tracks available, sort of assets like that where people could enjoy a little bit of a park area. Kids could play on the jungle gym, you know, and as that then developed, consumers became more educated, you know, they understood a little bit more what they wanted. And so the offering continued to grow. And suddenly we have a industry that is not only about security, but it's about services and hospitality and access and impression and brand. And as you can imagine, the more people that want to move into residential communities, the more this has grown within estates. So when you talk about trains, you really have to look at who is the buyer because each side of the home and a resident invests a part of residential community living has evolved. If you are a retiree, you're looking for a specific need. And so within that particular market, you've moved from a traditional sort of old age pensioner home into a lifestyle estate that's attracting a younger buyer and offering a different kind of service and aging in place or aging at home. If you're a younger person looking to invest in a community, you've got a sort of long term investment, your starting point is slightly lower, but you want to have all the additional facilities that come with residential community living. You're looking at a sectional title and there you've got the pool and the gym, et cetera. There your micro apartments are smaller living spaces with larger community areas. That is a growing trend for families. You know, the big drivers are always the facilities, you know, sporting facilities, access to schools, transport. So there are a number of drivers that I think we will talk about a little bit later on when it comes to what's driving the community. But there are a number of drivers. You know, COVID did play a certain part in what is happening in the property industry and everyone will have a different opinion on that. But what that has really done, if you look at people living in the community for a lot of people, it gave them the opportunity for the first time to actually enjoy their community. The first time that they're there in the daylight. And so with that, it became homeowner expectation. Now, suddenly they want to be delivered. They want the items delivered that were promised to them. So we definitely see that also happening within the industry. The work from home concept. Yes, obviously, that is a very popular concept. And a lot of people are working from home. So they're moving into outlying areas. But of course, work from home only works when you have high speed internet and there are other facilitators that need to be in place for work from home concept to be successful. I hope that answers your question. No, it definitely does, Lewis. And I actually then want us to look at what becomes the driver, what determines, you know, the demand for houses in residential houses in these estates. And the reason I ask this is I know in a lot of the big metros, I'm in Joberg, we're seeing a lot of estates coming up, a lot of bullish building estates and complexes. Some of them, unfortunately, staying relatively, I'll call it vacant. So they aren't getting sold out quickly. So it's almost a gone other days when some of these estates would sell out at a very rapid speed and you'd see developers, for instance, running packages like the first year of levies is free. And and having done, you know, real estate market analysis and looked at how develops developers think, I know, if you're a developer and you're using that as a hook, something went wrong in your analysis, right? Because if you're priced right and you're building in the right place, you wouldn't need to offer that as a service to people you want to buy in an estate. So then what actually determines the bond in these residential estates? I don't know, Jamie, if you want to take that all, I will answer that question. So I would disagree with you slightly that if a developer is offering a special, something might have gone wrong. I think that I think that what's happened is that it's become increasingly more competitive. So 10 years ago or 15 years ago, there might only be one or two offerings in a specific area that serve as a specific need. That's changed. People are spoiled for choice. So yes, perhaps an estate is not selling out as quickly, depending on where the location is and what the offering is. And of course, pricing, as you know, you know, what are people prepared to pay for? But I think that, you know, developers need to find and marketers of estates are looking for new angles in which to make their environment more favorable. So things like offering you free levies for a year. My statement to that is nothing is ever free. So, you know, I would be very mindful of a state, you know, of that type of promise, but the, you know, it is about competition and with anything, you know, people are looking for what could make their estate or development more desirable than the guy next door. And that's possibly where you're seeing those those types of promises. And if I could maybe answer that. Yes, I believe we're coming. Yes. So I was just going to say if I could add to that, I think if anything, what what the pandemic showed us was that and actually just reiterated is that people want people need to love where they live. So and and what the pandemic also showed us and lockdown showed us is showed us how important community was. And it was quite often it was our community around us that actually pulled us through, you know, those dark times. And and this is exactly what the state or the state life and community life now provides. And what we are seeing is that that the property developers are meeting this need by developing more communities. But they're also developing more communities at a price point, which makes community living available to many more. It's not just available to the elite anymore. So but what we're finding is that the market is also needing to still catch up. So whilst the the the market and the economy struggled through the the pandemic, property developers have met the demand by building more communities, making at price points that are more accessible. And now you'll see that the community or the market is starting to catch up in terms of, you know, moving into those communities. So I think it's just it's not that these communities are standing empty per se. I think it's just a question of developers are meeting the demand at a price at a good price point or accessible price price point. And now the market is moving forward into into that into that demand. And, you know, there are funding solutions now available because everybody deserves to live in a beautiful environment, safe environment, community living environment. So I think it's just a question of of the one the demand meeting the supply at the same time, which is happening just starting to happen. If you are just joining us at home this evening, I'm in conversation with Luis Barton and Jamie Ligana from Estate Living and we're exploring how developers are meeting demand in residential estates. I can see all the love that we're getting from our Facebook page. Many of you in and checking in the register, Queen Targo. I see you one of our regulars Matashengange tuned in, Daniel Kazadi also tuned in Colin Janssen sending us through some love, the Zelda English also watching and tuning in. In this chapter, it's great to see you on our Facebook page. I see you also watching Maya. You're not late. There was just a different format that we're trying out. So Maya had asked earlier when one of the ladies was speaking if, you know, she had missed the show because the screen only had our our speaker speaking. And of course, as I've been saying, we are trying out different formats of the show. And so almost every other evening, you're going to see a different way of us doing the show visually. And we want to get to that nice sweet spot. So send us your feedback as we're changing it. As we have seen this year, we've been trying different formats in different ways of course, making the show better for you at home. So do you send us some feedback? Let us know which parts you like as we try out these different options. We absolutely love hearing from you. Kuzara Makhale also tuned in. We're going to do now watching and tuned in security. Since I'm also watching and we're going and so many more of you at home. Do you keep the love coming? And of course, I want to find out from you at home. If you are living in a state, what has been your experience of staying in a state, whether it's a good or a bad experience, whether you are renting in it or you bought in one or sold a unit that you have. I know that more often than not, some people have issues with you know, doing property investments in some states. Sometimes they'll say, look, the admin can just keeps getting more and more intense. And I think as the years have kind of progressed, we we make sure that we have really great rules in place in the various states and complexes that we live in. So that can sometimes feel as though it's very admin heavy. For different people. But you show your experiences with us down here below. We absolutely want to hear from you. And I want to then look at, you know, before we look at the I think one of the things actually want us to explore is whether an area matches in terms of demand for, you know, for a residential estate. I mean, earlier, we were talking about the various, you know, estates and demand and the different ways developers try to pull people in. And I think, you know, Lucy made a great point that competition is quite high right now. And so of course, they're going to find different ways to pull people in. But what, you know, does an area matter? How does that play in when it comes to demand for the estates? Well, I think the tradition or the age old statement, location, location, location when it comes to property based true for residential community living as well. Although one one could say that because of the pandemic, that people have changed slightly the way that they were. They choose to live. We are seeing that statistic on sort of the garden route, but and those areas. But those areas were growing prior to the COVID pandemic as well. So a location, location, location. You know, there are drivers, so that access to transport, access to schools, access to amenities, you know, looking at views, things like that definitely drive where people want to live. And I but I think an important as a important thing about residential community living and with something we've seen over the years ourselves is that when you are selecting an estate or a sectional title development where you want to live, it's very, very important that you do your research. You know, you mentioned the rules. Rules do drive residential estates, but a rule in an estate should be something that you would naturally do anyway. You're not going to drive your car very fast through a residential space where children are playing. And that is that is a considerate, neighbourly thing to do. And a lot of rules should not be at such a level that it's uncomfortable to live in that community. Then the then the question is, is that a fair rule? But, you know, we look at the rules. We look at the environment and do your research. You have the right to ask for the estate's financials. You know, it's not just about having a tennis court and the gardens look beautiful. It's about how that estate is governed. You know, how is it managed to run? What is the what is the capital reserve budget looking like in the estate? Am I going to find that I move in and six months later, there's a massive levy hike because something hasn't been accounted for. You know, if I'm buying into a new development, what is the strategy for that developer to exit the project and meet and the HIA to take over? It's these pain points that cause issues and make decisions difficult. And often questions that folks are not asking when they're making their choice. And whether you're buying a one bedroom department, you know, in a block of flats, you know, in an area, or whether you're buying a luxurious property, the questions you ask are always the same, you know, because ultimately you want to enjoy your lifestyle in that estate, or you want to get the capital return or the rental return that you're looking for from that investment. And you have the right to ask those questions. Yeah, so so that's that sort of drives that also drives where people choose to live is the reputation of the developer, the reputation of the HIA and the governance of the community. Well, ladies, we're going to leave it there this evening. Thank you both for joining us on the show. Thank you so much. Thank you for the opportunity. And that is Louis Martin and Jamie Lee Gardner from State Living, wrapping up the Thursday edition of the Private Property Podcast with myself, Osamantouma Koumalon. Well, as usual, at 8 p.m. You can look forward to Baleenuoka bringing you the farming podcast. I'll be back on your screens tomorrow evening at 7 p.m. Till then, hoping you're staying home and staying safe.