 Welcome to NewsClick. We have with us Pushpujain, director of ERC. He is to talk to us about the most important decision that the FAC has taken on diversifying 92,000 hectares of forest land. We have carried out a research and analysis of Forest Advisory Committee of Ministry of Environment and Forest of last 8 months. What kind of diversions are being recommended? And what is very alarming that never such a large area ever has been recommended for diversion of you know forest in these days. If you look at the figures of the forest diversion of the same period last year, we found that this year it is more than 20 times than the last year. Last year the recommendation was only 4100 hectares. So, why do you think the Forest Advisory Committee and the Ministry is in a hurry? The point is that you know developmental agenda is getting priority over environment and forest agenda. That is why you know they are in such a hurry. And I find during our last 5 years of review of FAC meeting agendas, never ever in a month 3 meetings have happened. And this is very unique that this time in August 3 meetings happened and in these 3 meetings 15000 hectares forest land was recommended for diversion. And what is happening you can imagine the hurry that you know sometime at the last minute the projects are added which is not even in public domain and they are taken considered and recommended. For any example of that? Basically you know the last meeting I recollect the Andhra Capital Region Project which is under consideration. This was not in the agenda initially, but it was brought in at the last minute. Though it was under consideration previously also, but as far as this meeting is concerned it was brought in the last minute. So, do you think the rules and regulations are actually followed or do you think there is a bypassing of the rules and the Supreme Court judgments on the environmental issues? The Forest Advisory Committee takes into consideration the Forest Conservation Act 1980 and the Forest Conservation Rules and there are set norms and guidelines. But what is happening nowadays? For example, if we talk of Cain-Bethwa River Linking Project in Madhya Pradesh. The Wildlife Protection Act says that no activity in the National Park should take place which is not beneficial to the wildlife or the National Park. But how can we justify diversion of a forest area from a National Park which is going to adversely affect the National Park and wildlife? So, there is no justification. So, in a way this is a illegal activity. And another example I can give you that thermal power plants have a sighting guidelines. You cannot locate a thermal power plant adjacent to the river and then you cannot give away forest land for diversion for a thermal power plant or its ash pond which nowadays is happening once in a while. Also, what is this FAC? Because if you see the members according to the guidelines also they have to be a minimum of 3 for the quorum and based on your report I had gone and checked the minutes. Most of them are by mail on phone. Can that approve? Is it allowed? Because the quorum says a minimum of 3 have to be present for the meeting to take place. That is true, but you know in a exception situation when there is a emergency the chairman can decide that some project can be discussed by circulation among the members. But as you said the quorum need to be there you know there should be certain kind of responses and certain kind of you know what is very important is the non-official members on the FAC body. There are 3 non-official members they should be integral and you know they should be expert and they should be involved in those kind of activities. I remember way back when the Kane-Bethwa river linking project was being considered for recommendation after the meeting one member resigned I am not going to name him. But one member resigned because you know this is a very delicate issue and there are you know country wide concern for wildlife and you know this Panna Tiger reserve. So, there is quite a lot of controversy in you know approving this Kane-Bethwa river linking project because this is highly damaging. But you know coming to this what is the kind of decline rate? You know for example, in this our analysis of January to August 8 months meetings 134 projects which include you know some policy matter some report discussion or maybe some projects have reappeared in has appeared in more than one meeting. There you know only 2 projects have been declined just 2 projects it will hardly come 1.7% and 70 projects have been recommended and the remaining projects have been deferred they have not been declined. They will come back they will be reconsidered there may be some amendments and they may also get recommended in future. So, that is the kind of situation. Yeah, but sir then how do you think that these things can be actually taken to the larger public and how can they be opposed because there is environmental problem of wildlife and also you had mentioned that the carbon sink forest actors carbon sink and it is going to actually affect you can already see global warming and all. So, how can these be actually highlighted among the people? Basically you know media plays a very large when very important role in disseminating this information and while we are trying our best to reach out to the ministries, activists, local community but media certainly has a very large role. And nowadays you know I mean if this thing is brought to the larger public may be even taken to the schools and all that you know what is the impact of forest diversion, how it is impacting the you know our people in the backyard you know poor people they are farming and all this their habitation all that is being impacted livelihood is being impacted. For example, you know you may look at you know the diversion impact most important impact of diversion take place on the poorer people of the country. Because it is in the backyard of our country living people living in the forest people living around the forest they are most impacted by forest diversion. And then you know if you disturb forest then wildlife is also disturbed. For example, if you take the belt of Orissa, Jhakan, Chhattisgarh, Bihar the elephant movement have been terribly impacted I spoke to senior people in Chhattisgarh. The forest officials say now their major work is to firefight this man elephant conflict. Their regular activities are entirely hampered because their this management itself is very sensitive issue because if a person dies because of the elephant their main concern is to ensure that no death take place. So, those kind of problems are happening while you know corporates are happy to do mining to put thermal plants or what not. So, those kind of things are problems are certainly there. But sir if you I mean in the minutes itself it was reported that elephants are actually not wildlife endangered animal there was some discussion on this and they said they are not endangered animal. So, it is not necessary to halt some project. So, there was something are you aware of this. You know to say whether it is endangered or not it is listed in schedule one of the Wildlife Protection Act you can see the importance. Then you know disturbing elephants creates you know all kind of problems you know it indicate the health of the forest is going down and you are disturbing the forest all those indicators are there. So, just to sacrifice a species for a project is not a correct approach. So, how much pressure do you think because there are lot of mining giants involved? I think in December the Arcelor metal company had approached the Delhi High Court and they were that was brought into the discussion. So, is there any pressure from the big multinational and big corporate houses of the country on the forest? Well dear Mr. Ambatke this pressure has always been there. Because you know I recollect one incident which is funny also you know it was way back in 2006-7. Chattisgarh state had approached the ministry to create a elephant reserve. They had certain wildlife areas they wanted to create a elephant reserve because elephants were there their movements were there. And the project was moved by the state it came to the ministry. Ministry you know appraise the project made site with it did all investigation and they found that this project can be taken up. And they sent it there they sent their recommendation to the state that it can be further processed. And in the meanwhile what happened the CII got hint that this area is being created into elephant reserve. They officially wrote to the state government that you move the elephant reserve from here because coal blocks are here. Just see can a elephant reserve be moved? So, and then you know ultimately they had the last laugh and the elephant reserve did not come up. So, those kind of pressures are there you know they are overlooking the elephant crisis which is happening all over either in you know iron ore mining belt of you know Jharkhand, Odisha and you know coal mining belt in Chattisgarh. And this is creating a huge impact and when you talk of even of you know the wildlife impact directly. Ken Betwa has a direct impact on tiger. So, all those impacts are certainly there. So, what exactly do you think the diversion is for because are there any loopholes or what do you think because 90-2000 hectares is not a small thing. And even if you want to discuss one project where it comes from the lower level meeting cannot happen is not sufficient. But like you said about 130 projects were approved in a few meetings itself. No, in these 8 months as I said 70 projects have been recommended. You know we must understand here the forest advisory committee it is a advisory committee. It can recommend and the executive action is taken by the ministry by issuing the forest clearance or all those things happen and but the ball starts rolling from FAC. Unless the FAC recommends the ministry does not jump in to say we are giving the forest clearance. So, that is that importance is there I would say one thing you know like earlier you know the like last 8 months from January to August. The recommendations was only 4000 per 100 hectares. So, there has to be a precautionary principle in making recommendation. You know the advisory committee forest advisory committee should be for the forest and not for the corporations. That is my point of view I mean they should be the voice of our forest and wildlife otherwise who will listen to them. So, that is the situation. So, what kind of work does ERC do? ERC is a well known program across the country and our main role is to you know keep a watch on environment clearance and forest clearance processes. Where you know our role is not negative we only want that law should be followed guideline should be followed. We only want to support the decision making bodies like AAC, FAC with our comments and you know our recommendations which they can take into account while taking a decision. So, that you know the decisions can be better and our approach is that forest diversion should be minimum possible. We are not saying that there should be no forest diversion, but it should be minimum possible that is our main thing. On this note Pushp Jain says that the forest advisory committee has to be the voice of the wildlife and the forest. More to you on this. Thank you sir. Thank you. Thank you.