 Welcome to this episode of Downstream, Navarra Media's interview series about the culture we live in and the way it shapes our politics. And our next guest has been at the centre of a really seismic cultural moment. I mean, if you were played by John Boyega in a film of your life, you'd be feeling pretty good about it too. The small act series of films directed by Steve McQueen has been a spearhead for the revival of interest and interrogation in black British history. So, very pleased to welcome to the show former police superintendent, Lee Roy Logan, NBE, founding member of the Black Police Association, author of Closing Racks, My Life as a Cup, and the inspiration behind Steve McQueen's Red, White and Blue. Lee Roy, welcome. What can I say after all that introduction? What a CV. It is actually pretty impressive, but if I say that myself... I was so huge. For a young, humble start in Islington... I want to mention a football team, because we've read that. And, you know, it was... You don't know where you're going to end up just to have that. And I don't want to talk about possessions, I'm just talking about just being current and feeling you're in a conversation that needs to be had at this present time. I couldn't think of anything better. I would just be on my wildest dreams. I mean, you're also the first copper we've ever had on Navarra Media. So, should I be making a run for it? Do I need to annoy a person? I can't run that fast anymore. And I actually really sort of... And a lot of my ex-colleagues hate me for this, but I surprised myself for the least number of arrests that I make. Not because I let people off, but I think there's so many ways of signposting people. So, if I see them showing the signs of going the wrong way, I'll say, well, okay, let's try this way before you get into something really crazy and get yourself in trouble. So, and I would like to think the intervention and prevention is the way that I've dealt with things, not just feeling someone's collar. So, trust me, I'm your community cop or community ex-cop. I have nothing but an open mind, but if I get any evidence, I'll be around in a jiffy. Yeah, well, you know, I've never been that diligent when it comes to cleaning up after my crime scene, so it's not going to be hard. For those who might be unfamiliar, talk to me about your journey to joining the Metropolitan Police because in so many ways, you just were not typical of the recruits of the early 80s and not just talking about ethnicity, but also your background in the sciences. What made joining the police an appealing move for you? Well, it wasn't actually that appealing, in fact, it was my worst nightmare, but it was just one of these voices that resonate in your head, you know, this calling saying that whatever you thought you're going to do, forget it, this is the new calling. And because I was a scientist, did my science degree, got an excellent job at the Royal Free Hospital, thought my life was set in clinical research and a sequence of events started to transpire. It started with certain local officers from Hampstead that I didn't know were actually officers were using our bar and leisure facilities, you know, the gym, the sports hall, even the swimming pool and they then reveal themselves that they were local cops. And so I saw the personal side before the sort of uniform enforcement side. And I remember that I didn't have a great love for cops, you know, growing up in the 60s and 70s with a sus law and all that went with that. And I thought, wow, but these are nice guys. But then again, I realized policing in Hampstead is totally different from policing in Hackney. So they can afford to be nice. And it was nice surroundings, you know, and it was non-conferential. So it wasn't a stop and search point. And then my boss was doing my appraisal about the same time. And, oh yeah, by the way, these officers started to take me on drive rounds and in the back of the car and checking out what they were doing. I thought, well, this is a good job. Yes, yeah, I could, I could consider it, but not quite, you know, not enough. And then my boss was doing my appraisal. And he said, Leroy, you're a good scientist. You work well together. No problem about your performance, but I just can't see you being a scientist for the next 30, 40 years. So I said, what do you think I should do? He said, well, you're an outgoing person. You're a people person. I hear they're doing a recruit and drive for cops from minority groups. Would you like to join? I think you should join, I said. And I thought, do I look like a racist to you? You know, that was my immediate thought. And I thought, this is really weird soon after these officers trying to get me into the place. And so I went back to my fiance, Gretel, who's still my wife after all these years. And she said, that was something you should consider. I said, Gretel, that's not the answer. No, you're supposed to be talking me out of this. And the final thing was my best friend, Lee John, from Imagination fame. His mother used to be a community liaison officer. And I told her, mom or auntie, I'm really feeling in a bit of a dilemma here. And I told her and she said, well, maybe that's the reason I should join. We need people to join. I work with the police and they're always looking for people like yourself. And I agree with your boss. I don't think you're going to end up in a lab for the next 20, 30 years. And it just, well, that was it. It just created this sort of momentum in my mind and in my heart, I think, gosh, is this real? And I remember in Jamaica, during my primary school stage in my education, I went to Jamaica and I was living out there for a few years. And I remember seeing black cops and black teachers. And I thought, I remember them in their red seam and the blue seam. I thought, wow, maybe there's something in this. And then I also remembered when I was doing my degree, I was running from one end of the campus to the other and there was split, split venues and I was running along the street and I saw this black officer. So I must be about 18, 19. So it's black officer in uniform, in his marked vehicle. And he looks so professional. And I thought, wow, you're a brave guy. I thought, wow, you're a role model. And so these sort of things all resonated. And I said, okay, okay, okay, I get it, I get it. And I put an application in. I mean, it's interesting that you joined the police force in 1983 and it's this moment of real anti-racist activity in action and mobilization. And on the one hand, you've got things like new and monitoring projects being set up to hold the police accountable to the communities that they're meant to serve. And on the other hand, you've got you saying, hang on, the way you change it's from the inside. And I've always been unsure about this. And this puts me at odds with the person who I normally consider the font of all wisdom, my mother. And her view on it is that black and Asian people have a responsibility to join the police, to join the Crown prosecution service because our people deserve to be protected and not oppressed by these institutions. And I wonder what you make of that. Their sense of there being a kind of responsibility because my point of view is that I look at the inequalities, the inequalities of the searches, the inequalities of the charges, the sentencing, the convictions. And I go, well, does it matter if it's got a more diverse face meeting out these inequalities? I totally agree with your mother because I realized from speaking to Auntie Jessie that you need to have a reflective organization because the more diverse your personnel are, the better equipped you are to serve in the needs of the community. And the second thing is you can't steer a ship from the shore. You've got to be on board in the captain's cabin, steering that ship in some way. Now, I know that that's a big ask, but I felt that's the only way you can do it. You've got to be in it to win it. And there shouldn't be no, no go area for activism. And I know that's incumbent on us as people who come from different parts of the world who've settled here, invited to settle here. And when we see there is disparities or injustices or inequalities, we need to step in there. And I suppose that goes as counterintuitive because most people see the storm. The last thing I wanna do is step into the eye of the storm to be part of the solution. And as a result of that, you get this real sense that most people say, I'll have nothing to do with them. Whereas my school of thought, especially with Auntie Jessie was, no, you actually have to do your bit within it, be in the lion's den as they speak. I mean, that's not the only way in which you made a very different kind of choice as depicted in the film very powerfully. I mean, it was a brutal, brutal scene to watch. I can't imagine what it must have been like for you and for your family and for your father. Your father was assaulted by two police officers while you were in the process of applying to the force. And there are lots of people who'd see that kind of very flagrant abuse of power, that kind of racist injustice and go, I'm not gonna set foot in that institution unless it's to burn it to the ground. So what made you decide differently? Because it's one thing to go, oh, strategically, I'll join this institution to change it. But I think it's another thing to feel it so close to home, literally so close to home and go, I'm still going to join this organization. Well, I suppose that's where the strength of feeling about your purpose sometimes after even overriding your parents, because my dad, God rest his soul, my hero, my role model, I couldn't think of a worst case scenario than any of my parents being assaulted. And my father was beaten black and blue. I mean, when I dashed from the Royal Free down to the Whittington Hospital and saw him in the A&E, actually, I walked past him, didn't realize it was him. And when I finally saw it was him, I was so enraged. I mean, I'd never want to experience hate as I did. Unfortunately, I had to turn that around. And you would think, well, the worst place to turn it around is within the ranks of the organization that beat him up. And you just get, well, there's this colliding of your world, you know, the person or professional, and how are you going to make sense of it? And I suppose some people are small encounter intuitive. It's actually madness. Why would you do that? And I just saw that there was, maybe there's something trying to stop me from joining the police. So maybe I should need to be doubly determined to join and I don't allow my purpose to be stalled. Because by this time I'm thinking, well, listen, I've got to do this, come what may, despite the challenges I'm getting from, not only my, some of my family, because Greta was always supportive. I always got support from Jesse and my boss. But you know, obviously my father was really anti once he found out and how he found out he was not happy. Officers come and check out where I live, even though I've updated my address in the application process that I now live down the road. Opposite the arsehole stadium, by the way, I don't know how to add that. Anyway. We're going to edit that out. We're going to edit that out. And, you know, they went there to check out if I lived in the right place. And it was the old location I gave, not the new one. And my dad opened the door and they say, oh, your son's joined the police. Shortly after he's been beaten up, he's still got the scar in his head. And I thought, oh my gosh, I should have told him, but when do you tell someone, especially after the beating, oh, by the way, I'm going to join the people that beat you up. I mean, it was, but even when he found out, how he found out, I still had that determined to get on and do what I felt I had to do. And I suppose in a lot of ways, and reflecting on the last 30 odd years, I've realized that I had, what I did was the right choice. It sort of felt, it's falling in line, even to this very day, how things are playing out. I had to go through that sort of crucible fire to come out even stronger, to do what I had to do internally, to withstand the pressure from my colleagues as well as the pressure from those who were, I could understand being anti-police, they thinking that I was sold out, and to really just give, just stick to the vision I've got. And I didn't know how I was going to do it. I know all these things were just making up great deal of sense, but the inner strength and conviction was resonating and I had to just keep going. And yeah, I did in June, 83. I mean, one thing which I thought was really incredible, not just about this episode of Small Acts, but the whole series, is that I think that Steve McQueen has a very thorough understanding of the way in which you hold anger inside you when you experience an injustice. It's physical and you feel it in your body and it's turning almost into a substance. John Boyega played it with this incredible stillness, this really, really phenomenal performance. And I wondered just on a personal level, what racism does is that it takes away your dignity and it takes away the dignity of the people you love in that moment. And how did you deal with that rage and that anger that was the drive to change the Metropolitan Police Force but just on an emotional level, how do you begin to process it? Well, as I said, I was thinking, this is insane, but at the same time, I had that strength of character to say, listen, excellence is gonna be my deterrent. If I'm good at my job and I knew I was gonna be practically sound, intellectually capable, if I could just make sure all of that applies itself operationally, I could out do anyone performance wise because I knew, because I was fortunate to go to Islington where I grew up. And so I knew the area, I knew the people. I had that extra advantage of being a local guy. Plus I was a bit older. They used to call me granddad in Hendon Training School because I was 26, I was married. I had my first child. Most of them were in the late teens, early 20s, but I could still outrun them. I could still play football better than them, most of them. And if they weren't hacking up my legs and all that sort of thing. But so I realized having a sound operational endeavor and sporting, because one of the things that I met in those days, sporting wise, you had to be on top of your game as well. That if you're a physical presence, they may have a grudging respect for you. They might have a total respect, but they'll have a grudging respect saying, don't mess with him, and he's capable. And especially if that all goes horribly wrong, you can rely on him to back us up. Is that something that came from your dad, I wonder, because I'm hearing that thing you hear from your parents, which is you've got to be twice as good at everything for half as much. Absolutely. And understand that we have to deal with that in school. And it went with us through our entire education into our working environment. So it was like second nature. And I felt that meant that I was more sort of ready and on a land running. Because I realized that I had a few years ahead of them and I had to work even harder and really show my worth. And I wanted to show to the community, I can be an ambassador for you, I can be working with you, even though you might resent me, you might think I'm letting the side down, I'm a traitor, Judas, whatever. But I don't care what you call me. You don't need to find me, just like my colleagues don't need to find me. I had that strength of character, a confidence in who I was. And as I said, I saw black cops, black teachers, black doctors in Jamaica. So it gave me such an understanding of what I can do and how I'm gonna do it. So yeah, I wasn't gonna be derailed by any personality or any prejudice or any perception I was just gonna crack on. And I said, if I can do the first two years, I can get on and do the first 28. Because your first two years, your probationary period, as it were. And I remember, I had the worst reporting sergeant that anyone could ever imagine. I mean, he hated everyone. So at least he was consistent. It wasn't just black people, he hated everyone. And I just felt, if this man breaks me, I'll leave. But if he makes me stronger, I'll succeed. I mean, from a practical policing perspective, how much leeway did you have to do things differently? If you went to the force and you go, I don't like how things are being done. I don't like the level of disdain for the community. I don't like the level of stereotyping or prejudice. What kind of leeway did you have to do things differently? What would be different about how you did your job? Well, in the early days, you had to choose in battles wisely. I mean, you had a casual race in the N word, the W word, the P word has been used, not necessarily me or my colleagues, but members of public. And he felt, you know, where do you start? And because it was endemic in society anyway. But I remember there was one instance when I had about four, four, five years in. And in fact, I just finished the sergeants exam. So I was successful with that. And I was working in a divisional intelligence unit to analyze data before I got promoted. And I was coming out the office, I was doing my turn to clean up the office, wash the cups up and everything. And as I was coming out the office, officers were dashing out the backyard to a call, an emergency call, and you can imagine, the whole tray went up and I was covered in T-drecks. And they just looked at me and laughed and ran off to the call. So obviously, now I have to clear up the mess, change my uniform. And as I'm emerging out the office to lock up, I hear them laughing in the control room. Oh, you know, these people don't even have to keep the station clean. Oh, you know, they always looked at the mess. And I thought, do you know what? This is a battle. And it was a full control room. And I walked into the control room because I heard the sergeant chipping in. So I didn't direct myself to it. And remember, I'm a constable still. And sergeants are gods. You don't talk back. But I wasn't talking back. I was stepping in first. I'm gonna say, right, Sarge, you're supposed to be a supervising officer. Why don't you act like one? And I walked out. But literally, as I'm walking out, you can see drawers drop. It was literally tumbleweed silence. And I know that I had to say something. Now, they already knew me as a bit of a community guy and they had suspicion of me because they thought scientists, they're older, what are you about? By the time I'm about 30 now, you know? And they think, what are you, some sort of journalist on the slide? Or maybe you're gonna write a book or something like that. Well, 30 odd years later, they were right. I did. So it was really reinforcing them in their mind what Leroy Logan's all about. He's a troublemaker. So just gotta watch him, you know? And he seems to be doing certain things differently because I used to patrol on my own. I never used to rely on people to pick me up because, you know, one of the things when you're a probationer, to ingratiate yourself, you know, the driver's, the van or one of the Panda Mark cars, you know, you'd say, it's been nice to them. And then pick up, especially when it's raining, oh, get in the car, keep yourself warm. Yeah, if it's wintry, that sort of thing. And as a result of that, I never used to do that. I used to love patrolling on my own. I like talking to people. I like, you know, if it's wet, I'll pop into a local cafe or a local area where I can talk to people. And so I'd utilize the time that way. And so I was a bit of a loner. I was like that anyway as a child. So it didn't bother me. Because again, you couldn't, I wasn't gonna be forced into certain activity by my peer group, whether it's in the community or in the policing world. So I was able to stand strong in myself to say, listen, I can tough this through. I'm gonna get through this. And that for me meant that if I was going to step forward and speak on behalf of myself or others, I wasn't going to worry about being missed a popular. And even as a supervisor, if you're gonna do your job properly, you've got to maintain that critical distance. And if you've got to speak to your team and they might not be doing things as they should, I realized you've got to, I'm not gonna be just your friends. I'll be your colleague yet. But if need be, I can be someone who will challenge your performance, hopefully to develop you. But if not, I may have to sanction you. So I was quite clear on what I needed to do to ensure that you get the best out of the colleague, my officers. And so I wasn't worried about being popular. I mean, I suppose there's, how you as an individual navigated the internal culture of the police. And then there's the next thing, which is the structural role of the police in society and the role that you're playing within that. And were there ever moments where you felt conflicted about whether the role that you were playing was in the interests of racial justice, community harmony, protecting underserved communities, or in some cases, upholding inequalities? And I'll give you an example. Literally, every one of my family is a social worker. It's like growing up in the mafia, except everybody's doing active listening. And there are these real moments. And they'll use it against you, right? Oh, God, my God. No one can hold a grudge like a social worker, but they have a back catalogue of everything you did wrong from when you were three years old. But there are these moments, particularly for my mother, where she really questions what she's doing. And she asked the question of, am I helping disadvantaged families stay together and love each other? Or am I playing a structural role of punishing poor people for being poor? In many different ways, and for all of the social consequences of that poverty. And just wondering if you as a police officer ever had that moment of going, hang on, am I helping people who are disadvantaged or am I punishing them for their disadvantage? Well, that's a very good question. And I remember when I went into policing, I made it very clear that my beliefs and values have to be maintained because if I'd changed that, I would leave it on heartbeat. And I realized also, with that, my identity has to be very strong. So I said very clearly that I'm a black man who happens to be a cop because here I'm in retirement, I'm still a black man. That also meant I didn't just assimilate into the norms and values of the organization. I integrated with my beliefs and values for justice and equality. So that meant I wasn't gonna be fooled by certain people's actions, say, oh, we're doing for the best of the community. Oh, just stop and search them. We're saving lives. No, no, no, hold on. What is the wider impact? Are you adding to their pain? Are you traumatizing them? Are you making barriers and not building bridges? Because that's what I was about. Let's build the bridges because we get more information. You know, I mean, one of the first things they teach you is about Sir Robert Peel who sat at the Met in 1829. And he said something so simple and he's so profound even today, the police are the public and the public are the police. And if you keep that clearly in your mind with your own identity, you then will say, well, actually, you've got to have that contract with a public. If you don't have it, regardless of how they're made up and whether they're affluent or deprived communities, whether they're crime-infested or leafy suburbs, it doesn't matter. You need to be working with them and getting the best out of them because they're your eyes and ears. So for me, it had an operational sense because if I am going to be creating barriers, then I'm defeated the whole object of why I joined in the first place. I don't mind as I pull up the drawbridge and go home, you know? So for me, it wasn't a question of, you know, I'll just do it nine to five and weekends off and it doesn't matter. No, it had to be 24 seven. And I suppose it really did crystallize itself when we set up the Black Peace Association in 94 because how that came about, where they were looking at the disproportionate resignation rates of black officers and they took us to these seminars in Bristol Polytechnic as it was called then and how the report we came up with was shelled, not realizing that it was the systemic failures. We didn't call it that. We just talked about the culture. And but it brought us all together because it was every black officer of 95% of black officers in the met the time about a couple of hundred of us were talking about these issues. And we thought, well, the met might show that report but we have come together. So they create their own monster basically. And we said, okay, this is how we change internally to improve externally, you know, change the dynamics, the culture, the composition and ensure that we're better serving the needs of the community because there's that inextricable link. The better you are at serving the needs of the diverse personality, a personnel rather, the better equipped you are to serve the needs of the diverse public. So realizing that we set up the Black Police Association and our overarching aim is to serve the needs of the black personnel in particular so we can serve the needs of the black community who are disproportionately disadvantaged. So that's when it really made sense strategically and then we had the framework to deal with it. And we had a platform, especially after McPherson Inquiry, we had that platform. And that's when it made sense. In 94, that's when my sense of insanity. So I thought, oh, it was literally a Eureka moment. 94, 11 years into the job, I thought that's what I'm here to do. And it was as clear as day. And it was like a commission. It was like, this is your raison d'etre. And it's been worth it. And it was like a pattern of backstain, right? You passed the test the last 11 years, trying to sort things out in your head and who you really are as put you in this position to do this work. I mean, I really wanna come on to the McPherson report. I mean, I remember the moment of the McPherson report even though I was a kid, because everyone was talking about it in my family. It was huge. It was seismic. And it's a tragedy that it took the murder of Steven Lawrence and the institutional failings of the investigation how his family were treated to make it happen. It feels like after the landmark of the McPherson report which acknowledged the existence of institutional racism and the police that maybe we've gone backwards. So Cressida Dick, the Met Police Commissioner, said this weekend that nobody is being stopped in search because of the color of their skin. And I was wondering what you make of her comments. Does this represent a slide backwards in terms of the progress which was made by McPherson? Without a shadow of a doubt. And there's a real irony about this because when Cressida Dick had left the Met, she left I think as a superintendent, she came back as a commander in 2000. And she had actually joined to work with a deputy assistant commissioner called John Greaves. He was Mr. McPherson for the Met. He was the McPherson lead for the Met. And she went to work for him. And she was head and shoulders in the mix really talking race and equality issues because by this time myself and two other members of the BPA had given evidence to McPherson to say that police service was institutional racist. But you know, in point of the finger, we knew we had three fingers pointing back at us what we're gonna do. And it's quite clear. We deal with internal recruitment and retention and progression issues to make a more reflective organization. And I was also the first chair of the National BPA at this time. So I was working with Jack Straw and Paul Boateng at the strategic level to ensure that chief constables were held to account not only for the internal recruitment and retention progression, but also service delivery and how I'll stop and search and all the disproportionalities. So Jack Straw master stroke, he organized the Stephen Lawrence steering group and he chaired it personally. And Neville and Dorian Lawrence was part of it. And, you know, major representatives like myself as the National BPA chair. And it really measured progress because what gets measure gets done. If you don't measure it, things are just gonna be left. If you don't hold chief constables to account say, well, listen, just like Al, you hold an account for crime and clear ups and who's repeat offending. You know, if you call them in the same way or why is your diversity framework not working? Why is your recruitment and retention figures slowing down, whatever? So if you treat it in the same sort of way you will get the same sort of response. So that steering group went on from 99 where the report was published to 2009. And each subsequent labor home secretary would cheer the group. When unfortunately by 2009 it was being dissolved by, I think it was Jackie Smith was the home secretary at the time. And then 2010 the Tory government came in and they decided that chief constables would measure their own progress around McPherson and all the recommendations. Well, in a can do success driven organization it's like giving a child the answers to the questions of the test. And then after that, you mark your home results. So who is going to say, oh, no, no, we're not institution races. Oh, we can do without that interpretation or that definition and everything is great. So that's what we've had over the last 10 years and also austerity has been a major issue because it's in the name of austerity, race and equality issues have literally been knocked off the agenda. In fact, they're no longer discussed really. They might shroud it in leadership or culture change but there's nothing about race and equality. And then we had the CRE being disbanded and the Equality and Human Rights Commission which again, the race and equality issue has been diluted. So you had these sequence of events which cause slippage, you know, because it's not a priority. And so that's why the excellent growth between 1999, 2009 of a more reflective organization from 2% to 12% or thereabouts of black and minority ethnic officers. It's more or less leveled off. I think it's about 14, 15%. So that's in the first 10 years, 10% growth. The last 10 years, two or 3% growth. Also, we've seen this massive right-wing shift in society through Brexit. You know, hate crime went through the roof after Brexit to 2016. And police are a reflection of society. So you saw that right-wing emboldened individual emerging out the mech. And by this time, I retired. But you've seen it as, you know, working with the police and charity work, anti-gang work I've been doing. And you think, gosh, they weren't like that when I was in the organization. It's just in their banter in the way in which they just view things. And it just reminded me of a pre-McPherson era when these emboldened officers think they're unaccountable and untouchable and trust and confidence in the black community is low. It's because of the experience of day-to-day policing. And also community cops have been set back, safer schools officers have been reduced. I've been reduced. So there's this void been left and a disconnect between the police and the public. So, and unfortunately that void has been filled by dysfunctional role models who groom these youngsters into place. So you've got this real toxic mix of reactive type policing, fueling community resentment. If that makes sense. Yeah, community resentment in a way that it's now a them and us. And it's been like that for the last couple of years and it's getting worse to the extent that now you've got a commissioner who's saying stuff that she never used to say 20 years ago. When I met Cres in 2000, she was totally different. But it's either she was being disingenuous at that time or the culture's got to her. It's that she doesn't want to be unpopular. She wants to encourage officers, say they're not racist. There's no systemic failures. Everything is great and it isn't, especially with a black community who trust the police less than they did say 20 years ago. And then she undermines people's intelligence or she attempts to by saying, well, there isn't anything to worry about. So we don't have to be an institution racist. But people are saying, especially now with black lives matter and the whole George Floyd thing. We've had our own George Floyds, you know, with Richard and Charles and Hackney and various other death and police contact. We're not going to buy that. And to be honest, I have to be saying we're not going to buy that because as I said, our black man, I'm an advocate and an activist that you can't fool with this Kool-Aid. I've been there. I haven't drunk that Kool-Aid even when I was in there. So why would I drink it now? And Chris, I know you better than this. And if you can't deal with this, you've got to ship out. If you can't shape up, you've got to ship out. And what burns me more is Salih Khan, the mayor, should be holding her to account. And he's not holding to account as he should be until quite recently, he's saying the mayor's action plan that's trying to build, you know, community activism to buy into work with the police. But people are already numb to the fact that police don't care, you know, they haven't really dealt with it. They were shooting for the last 10 years in effect. And now you want us to just work with us? You know, I'm a great believer. You're not going to get a harvest until you till the soil. If you till that soil, you'll get a harvest. But if you think you're just going to get this harvest and you've done nothing to support and nurture people's trust, why would they do anything? So finding closing, the mayor and the commissioner want to increase black and minority ethnic officers in the met to 40% in three years. Well, it's taken them 20 years to get to 15% or their bounce. So what would make them improve dramatically by another literally 100% in three years? It does not make sense. And that's why I think they're in such denial. But I put it to you that we've seen with the last two home secretaries that we've had, Saja Javad and currently Pretty Patel, that this is the limitation of being represented. You know, Saja Javad, our first home secretary of colors, brought in to deal with the backlash after the Windrush scandal. And he was brought in as a symbol of change which was never going to happen. He was brought in so things wouldn't change with the home office. And Pretty Patel, even more so, not just with issues of immigration, but she wants to be seen as tough on policing, tough on lefty lawyers, bring back stop and search, go in hard, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so maybe I'll put it to you that the conservatives understand that representation politics, if you can decouple it from values, means that you can keep the same old, same old in the status quo. And doesn't that present a challenge to the kind of work that you do in terms of representation, that they figured out how to present the illusion of a changed complexion without changing anything about the culture? Absolutely. Yeah, I think you hit it on the head. This whole sort of spin of certain things, is not only impacting on people who might be quite vulnerable to that fake news and that illusion of change when nothing's changed. You know, it's like the king's clothes type thing, even though he's walking around butt naked, you know. But it's our own people who've been on the receiving end of this, they buy into it. Cause even now they're doing this sort of divide and rule. So you've got your BPAs being around for 25 years, a critical friend holding the organization to account. They're now bringing in your poster boys and girls of certain individual mandate. They're not even got a proper constitutional voting mandate and they use them, cause it might be quite cool on Twitter or other forms of social media to speak on behalf of the organization, which is that odds with the staff associations like the BPA who was speaking up for truth and justice. And so they don't have to do anything. And they just say, right, you do that and you do that. And they just watch it all play out in front of them. And I think especially in the police, that's what they're doing at the moment. You know, there's this real grapple between minority groups in the organization at loggerheads with each other and the white majority are thinking, that's cool, we can control this. And I think they got this game plan, you know, from the politicians. Cause having worked with Boris when he was mayor, that's what he's very good at. You know, he'd bring in your Ray Lewis, his gangster, his drinking buddy. He would say, right, you know, this is what we do. And Ray would hive off his favorites and work them against people like myself who could see through all this stuff and think, wow, what is going on? All right, by this time I'm retired, but I could see how we are now becoming at odds with each other. And the solution is the white stallion armor bearing knight coming in and say, listen, we can change things for you. And we'll bring in our own sort of token individuals to be the messengers. And even though they're more draconian than any, you know, I think, Sajid and Pretty are two of the most draconian home secretaries we've had since what made Theresa May look like a walk in a park. Did you go in the Black Lives Matter marches this year? Yeah, absolutely. I felt compelled to do that. Because I could identify with what they were trying to do. I mean, they were here a few years ago, but they'd never got the traction. What caused the real change for them was George Floyd and see him being lynched that way by an officer who had a similar oath to me to protect and serve, brought tears to my eyes. And if there was anything I had to do was show my presence. Now, it so happens from Boy Asia was there speaking in a way that I could identify with. And the fact that I knew was gonna be playing me shortly afterwards on the BBC just showed that real alignment in the new generation of young people are not gonna put up with these things. They are socially and strategically informed that they can say that we can make a difference. They have a platform to change. And so I know that this movement is not gonna be just a moment, it's gonna have momentum and it's gonna make people sit up. So if I can be an assistance to that, as an old funny duddy trying to do my bit and if my film with Steve McQueen, Red, White and Blue and the autobiography can add to that conversation, then I'm doing my bit because in all honesty, I know my grandchildren's generation to go through the same inequalities as my children's generation, my generation and my parents' generation. I just cannot deal with this. It's got to change. I think it's gonna be people power and young people are gonna be front and center for that. And I just want to see the change being quickly brought in by a change of political will, change of people in authority, because if they think young people are gonna go away, they're fooling themselves. I see it in voyage. I see young people saying, listen, this is what we're going to do and how we're gonna do it. They're part of our trustee board. They change the curriculum. They are innovators and I've got so much admiration for them and as we speak, they're at a strategic board changing things in Hackney, which is phenomenal. I wish I was doing that when I was their age. So I'm with them and I know that 2021 is definitely gonna be an improvement in terms of these issues that young people face. And I believe they will solve them. I mean, on a much sillier point, it must've been pretty flattering to learn that John Boyergon was playing you. That's when you go, officially somebody thinks I'm handsome because of that casting decision. You know what? I'll never forget my mother for various things and she said, you're the most handsome young man I know and that was enough. So she could say it. I don't care what anyone thinks of me, but yeah, there was a bit of validation saying, well, he's a cool dude and I must admit, he did me so proud. I mean, for me, he brought that role in a way that I don't know, I don't know many actors, maybe Denzel or someone like that could have done it. But John, for me, made especially those quiet, solitary moments so profound. And it made me reflect on so many things. I remember the second time I watched it before viewing it yesterday and I must admit, it hit me so hard. I found myself bawling like a baby because I'm thinking, gosh, how did I get through all of that stuff? And he enacted it in a way that it just brought me back to 1980s, you know, the early to mid-1980s. And I can't thank him enough. He's been a joy to work with and I wish him all the best. And Steve McQueen, what can you say? He's just an icon. He's so- Genius. Absolutely. And I'll tell you something, he even influenced my book, The Autobiography, because he was saying, how can you say you love your father and then you still join the police knowing that they beat them up? Come on, I don't believe that. What was it? I mean, it was getting quite violent in the restaurant and people are looking around thinking, what's wrong with these guys? You know, all these, why are they looking so aggressive? You know, these black people, why don't they just eat their food quietly? That's a tough thing. But no, he really influenced it. And I just had to say, it's my faith. You know, I stand strong in my faith that I knew that I had to carry out that purpose even though my father wasn't pleased. But the great thing was, 17 years later when I got the NBE and I'm going to Buckingham Palace from my parents and Gretel and just before I've got to go right for recipients room and left for the nearest and dearest reception room, my dad said, I suppose you did the right thing after all. And that was 17 years after leaving and I, sorry, joining the organization. And I thought, wow, that meant, that validation was so important because literally two years later, both my parents were passed away and that would have tormented me. So just to have that validation just made things so, well, it was amazing for me. And I'm living that now through the book and the film. I mean, also just like black and brown parents, man, you've got to get the NBE before you get the validation. Yeah, exactly. The bar is so high. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. My white friends did GCSE art genius. Wonderful. Us lot, man. You've got to get the NBE. You've got to get the Nobel Prize. Oh, man. I'll tell you, our parents don't ramp. They don't ramp, man. They say, listen, and I think it's because they know the world we need to operate in and it's going to be a high bar. It's going to be a high bar. And you know, my children said, why are you so easy with the grandchildren and you were so tough on us? I said, well, who else is going to give you a hard time? Who else? If I don't give you a hard time, who else is? So, you know, we do it because we love, love our children and- Yeah, I've heard that one before. No, it's tough love. It's tough love, but it's still love. I've got a quick fire round for you if you're up for it. Go for it. On certain policies. All right, decriminalized drugs, yes or no? So you've got to legalize certain drugs or control it that it's not being used by the drug dealers because at the moment, the proliferation of drugs gangs is out of control, especially with less cops around and less community intelligence telling you who's doing what by no how. So you're in a hiding for nothing. And I'm not saying that we just go back and say, oh, you just let anyone get on with drugs. No, you've got to have the infrastructure to support people because they're more patients than prisoners. And police have to see the people, especially not only drugs, but mental health, they are patients, more patients than prisoners. And that's what they did in Glasgow. If you go to the violence reduction unit, I worked, you know, in fact, I was liaison with Karen McCluskey even yesterday and, you know, because I learned so much from her and what she did 12 years ago around treating people as more vulnerable groups and then working with them so that there are more stronger people and won't go back into their old habits to reduce exclusions, to reduce crime, take away the power from the drug dealers and the criminal elements who can groom people and manipulate them into that type of lifestyle. So for me, it's a no-brainer. We really need to look at our drugs policy because, again, it's just like violent crime, you're not gonna arrest your way out of the problem. You're not gonna stop and search your way out of the problem. And in this day and age of being more cost-effective, especially after COVID, money is gonna be really tight. We're going through, it's gonna be another austerity. Why would you do the same sort of things? Just kicking in doors and, I'm not saying don't do that, but don't just emphasize on kicking in doors and nicking people when you're not doing the intervention piece and the prevention piece and the diversion piece. Even though it's not a quick fire, because you asked me why, it's definitely change in drug policy. Absolutely. I undermined my own quick fire thing because I was expecting you to say no and I got interested so I wanted to hear why. So that was a quick fire round which didn't go as I planned, but I've got a couple more quick fire questions. Do you have any sympathy with Black Lives Matter activists in the United States calling for the defunding of police departments? I have no sympathy about the defunding title but I have sympathy with the concept which is not far from the public health approach. I wish they would call it the public health approach because it's more or less the same. Because what you're doing is similar to what I said with the drugs policy. You're identifying where your assets are not having a desired outcome because there's the other thing with this whole performance culture, especially police officers are brought into this. They talk about outputs, which is like literally how many people in the cells, how many people go to the courts and maybe how many times they offend or re-offend. That's what the whole games matrix thing is about. And look at how that that's institutional racing by logarithm or algorithm even. Logarithm is my generation. Algorithms is now. Anyway, so there is that real sort of systematic misunderstanding of outputs is only part of the equation. You have to look at outcomes and impact. So the public health approach looks at the outcomes of your activities and the impact. Now, I wish they would really talk about that in America in a similar fashion. Defunding the police concept rings too many alarm bells for people. And I hope Joe Biden really changes that around because it's not helpful. So I agree with a concept, but not the type. I really believe the public health approach, which we're adopting here, is really just changing how you deploy your assets. Mental health. Why call cops to mental health? There's no point because they're not skilled. In fact, they exacerbate things because they see that person as a threat and they add into that person's trauma by applying cuffs and rolling around with them. Because they have not got the real understanding of how to deal with them. So you have to beef up the number of approved social workers and also psychologists so that they are the first line. Maybe you need cops there to protect them just in case, but cops should not be the first line to call to someone in distress. I mean, we've got so many cases where people have been in distress and officers either taser them or in America, they shoot them, which is crazy. I mean, it makes me believe. So, no, I believe in the concept but not the title of defunding. But if you look at what they're trying to do in America, it's very similar to what the public health approach is trying to do here. And final question. Do you really fancy Arsenal's chances at the lane this weekend? You're terrible, you know. You're really terrible. As a long-term gooner and I'd like to think, even though the only thing I addressed in my life was my football team, because I grew up in Ivory School, Ivory Grove School. And if you decide to support another team like the Emanian Aids or your Chelsea's or even your Tottenham's, then get ready for a kicking because that's all they do. It's a boys' school, that's what we're into. Anyway, so I'm a gooner through and through, but I'm a realistic gooner. And just by the form books at the moment and you've got a very good manager, I think that it's going to be a goldfest, but I think Tottenham's going to win unless Arsenal, no, seriously, unless Arsenal really change their shape because what I saw yesterday saddened me greatly and I mean, I know it was only one goal in it, but Wolves and our record at home is abysmal. I mean, I think someone was saying it's our worst performance since the 81-82 season. I mean, that's 40 years ago for Pete's sake. So no, I'm a realistic gooner. And I'll tell you why. I don't normally admit this, but I used to be a season ticket holder and when they moved from the old stadium to the new one, my wife said to me, I'll give you five years. If they don't get any silver, we're in five years. We can't afford that X number of pounds to be a season ticket. So it was either keep the season ticket and get divorced. And I thought, actually, it's more cost-effective to keep... No, I didn't keep the season ticket. I almost got to get divorced. So I got rid of the season ticket. So it's given me a sense of... I'm a critical friend of Arsenal. I love them to bits. Critical friend. But I've got to be a critical friend. And I'm hoping Arthetic can turn it around, but it's not looking good. I mean, it's one problem. You could arrest your way out of Get Rid of Son and Kane and our season is finished. Lee Roy, thank you so much for joining us today. I don't think you've convinced me away from being a committed abolitionist, but you made some very good points. You nearly got me there. If anyone could have convinced me, it's probably you, but not me. Well, actually, can I just say, I would love you to be an abolitionist. If you knew that I was going to pray for Harry Kane's left ankle. You could maybe convince me away from my, you know, very fundamentalist readings of Angela Davis then. Oh, no, no, no. Oh, stop that. Great every night for Harry Kane. Maybe we could convince you. But Lee Roy, thank you so much for joining us, giving us your time. And yeah, thank you for the work you've done as well. No, no, it's been really good. I really like interesting conversations. And I think your social work in background has helped you to really ask some very, very relevant questions. Thank you so much.