 Welcome to the homelab show episode number 121 with a special guest Wendell. How you doing Wendell? How's it going? Thanks for having me. Oh We're excited Wendell has a cool little device that we're gonna be talking about and this dovetails perfectly We talked about how easy it is and it's amazing how easy it is We'll talk about this some more to get started with AI in your homelab or you don't have to upload your data to some company you can start deploying these and It's just gonna be a fun. We're just gonna roof on some homelab stuff today We we don't have to have a really strong We just have a couple ideas we want to talk about there But I think it's gonna wander in some good directions here because that that little card that Wendell 70 watts is that what you said 70 watts? This is the RTX 4000 SFF 8A generation which is a mouthful, but that's it's new, but it's it's RTX 4000 70 watts So it doesn't require external power. It's half height. It is not single slot Unfortunately because it's got a pretty pretty good cooler, but it's got 20 gigs of VRAM ECC VRAM And so this if you want to run an LLM Locally like for O Lama 20 gigs I want to run a 14 billion parameter model at real-time token real-time levels of token processing. This is amazing Wow kind of makes me want to try it out Seven haven't done that yet, but that should be something I should try out the large language models But so I'm sorry. What was that called again that device? This is a NVIDIA RTX 4000 SFF 8A generation We will have to put that in the description Do you have a video on it yet Wendell? No ones. I'm working on it I was I was not expecting to be impressed by this little thing, but it is in a 70 watt power envelope I am genuinely surprised how How fast it is? For doing local stuff like it just if you just want to like load it up with O Lama. Have you mess with O Lama? Yeah, that's what we talked about last time. So that's why I figured it's I'm really impressed I know Mistral's got a new one that's claiming. It's a invite only that's supposed to be rivaling Chatchi B4 That you can run your home lab. I haven't tried I've tried the Dolphin Mistral the code in the code Lama and I'm getting better at it I'm still very new to it because I've been using Chatchi PD because it's there And I kind of want to get off of the penance because I'm always careful about any data that I upload to it I'm we sure it's not anything That so that's why I started playing with the local ones because I just I want to be able to have Control over what goes into these things or not worry about what goes into them because I'm the one hosting it Yeah, exactly and and you can also start doing fun experimental things like giving it control over things and home Assistant so you can just say hey home assistant that was anybody on the porch today or you know hey home assistant like I'm leaving now deal with that and it's like okay. Let me turn the air conditioners off and whatever So I haven't tried neon yet, but that's something on my list I'm not talking about like the neon OS. Well, it is an OS. It's just not the KDE plasma one It's confusing the one specifically for Replacement for the Microsoft software Well, it's not replacing it's not made just for that But it's like the chosen path forward and I almost wonder if that would hook into that So if I had my automated assistant have be backed by a language model Then I think that would be a great interface to get through to talk to it and make it do stuff Yeah, that's the great thing about olama is that because it's just an API you can do a little shell script or a little Python script or whatever you want to do and There's a guy that did a blog post. I think this kicked off home assistants I haven't looked into this but it supposedly there's like a home assistant hackathon or something for LLM's I don't know if it's like I just saw that somewhere and I was like I need to go back and look at that and I haven't gone back to find it but somebody wrote a blog post on Training their LLM to output direct JSON that they could feed into home assistant And it was like kind of the starting point that kicked off everything and it's like yes That's this isn't the way it it's Star Trek level like You know a lot of the AI has to do with prompting and I mentioned last time And it's a really cool github project called fabric by Daniel messler and I don't know if you've looked at it but he's run an amazing job of Building everything with a lot of really solid prompt engineering for example. He's a security researcher So he wants to you got the news Here's a security problem what he does is he actually takes it and can point it at news articles And it outputs into a standard JSON format so we can import it so we can understand the vulnerability You know so you can read between the lines and figure it out and it does an excellent job of analyzing it It's kind of a something you may not think about with LLM But it's not hard to tell them say hey, it's like the security researcher is doing with this screen connecting I actually just used the LLM. I'm like, all right. Here's the IPs. I just need all this output it in CSV Here's the input from show Dan with all the lists. We're gonna filter it by state We're gonna come up with a list. I need to know the Header for this and I'll put all this in CSV and it made the list for me that I'm calling from like because I'm not that great at scripting Wow, that's amazing that the mold up up to now I got to do something more clever because up to now the most noteworthy thing I've done with AI is I had chat chat GPT explained the kill command in Linux as if it's being explained from or by a Klingon from Star Trek And it's just perfect. He's absolute goal But or the LS command explained by Regina George for mean girls is another fun one As far as actually something productive I've had mixed results, but it's definitely coming coming along as far as chat GPT is concerned I know that's not the We can't self-host that but it is kind of like the precursor I think it's a lot of people interested in this and the next thing you know, they're running 10,000 servers in their basement It's it is a little bit of an explosion. I mean I The question for me is on for the curve that we're on are we on like the 1960s like look this is a mercury delay line and we haven't invented transistors yet because Things are accelerating and shrinking at such a rapid pace and also there's stuff like I've seen some really just mind-blowing demos of Software like neural magic to take it to take these neural nets and sparsify them so that they run on CPUs Because you know CPUs it's fun. It's like all of a sudden you're 128 or you're 64 128 core x86 CPU is suddenly very useful for doing These kinds of things and also pairing down the complexity of the neural net so that it you know It's like a 17 billion parameter model is almost as good as a 90 billion parameter model with the appropriate You know tuning and this kind of thing and so the utility of these on It's gonna be faster than what we saw even with like cell phones to go from like the suitcase phone to like the giant You know cancer brick phone to like what we have today is gonna seem like a lifetime compared to How quick these these things move I think I I kind of agree because it's become affordable to train these because someone was breaking down the Costs we had some when we have some more servers coming there for clients But you know they make a pass through our office while we set them up so we plan to do a little bit of testing on some of them and it's interesting because They're I'm gonna put them in pseudo affordable. They're not outlandishly expensive But even if you just rented this stuff in the cloud Someone told me his cost around two grand to do each one of these training models. I'm like, that's not crazy That's within realm of a business who wanted to train on their own data to build one of these Customized models out like you said a scaled down, but let's focus it on we're gonna train it on data We have two grand for training not not a landish. Yeah Yeah It's amazing how how it's going I almost wonder if we're seeing the end or the beginning of the end of the keyboard and mouse is Input devices and I know there's lots of you'll pry my Mechanical keyboard out of my cold dead hands. I'm not talking about those people I mean just like the average, you know, non techie just checks their email and you know keyboards and mice I think I mean no, obviously it's more than that, but I feel like It's strange to me because as a kid I would have thought by now we'd not have any input devices. We talked to our computers But here we are the keyboard mouse, but now finally like you're saying the warp drive or need to say warp drive I was thinking work drive we're talking about inventions and things and how it's really ramping up it is kind of I think we are on the cusp of something with the AI and I know a lot of people are rolling their eyes right now But believe me if you know, we we're not bandwagon people here We don't jump on bad bandwagons and chase trends. We We get excited about something. It's probably for a reason Yeah, this is this is the most exciting but it easily turns into a black hole and it's it's also It's also, you know, sometimes I feel like a parrot like I knew somebody that had a pet parrot and the pet The parrot was always obsessed with the reflection of themselves in the mirror And I worry that some of the AI stuff is a little bit like the parrot. It's like, oh, this is a reflection It's like but it's not actually doing anything useful like I'm spending a lot of time with this But like is it really is it like actually super handy? I don't know I think there's outer limits episodes and it probably other sci-fi shows that cover this topic in What exactly happens when it has a it hasn't a you know an opinion of mankind based on the data it ingested But then it thinks we're evil or something I tell you I tell you the test This this will set your mind at ease when you're playing with all these LLMs Ask it to play a game of rock paper scissors and tell it to go first and then after you win ten times in a row Ask it if it has any idea how you're winning. Yeah It doesn't know it's just like I don't know you seem really lucky and it's like, okay, cool There's a lot of things it just doesn't understand and I was looking over it So it's from the name of the article, but this is a article I can add it to the description here And well research paper done at Cambridge very recently published like last week And I took the time to read it because it really highlights that it's an assistive technology and It's really interesting One of the lines I pulled from it was in a case of cosmic irony AI is not trustworthy with facts and numbers I love the person very realistic. It does respect. It does not respect rules AI is however remarkably effective at acquiring knowledge acquiring tactic knowledge Rather than relying on hard-coded procedures and I learned by examples gains mastery without implicit instruction and acquires capabilities That it was not explicitly engineered to possess they kind of go on of the whole purpose of the papers go This isn't the end of work. This isn't end of the jobs This is just another tool and those who embrace it as a tool are gonna have the most success I mean, there's always somebody going can I replace my entire department with AI? That's definitely the trend we're seeing pushed for but that's not a realistic But in in the case of like I used it for this morning of parsing a bunch of data that I didn't really have time to write script for It does a great job of that But it also screwed up on some of it because it just decided something I looked at the output and said you're completely ignoring Something I told you to do and I told it that I said you've ignored the curl dash K command You know the insecure ignore the certificates and it says oh, I will fix that and I told it to do it implicitly at The beginning it just decided not to which of course made it give me an error instead of Result I want it so it's kind of weird how it just does something on its own even though you told it to do something else But if you put it in the hands of an expert someone who has a general idea what you need done You understand where the flaws are and it got me 90% of the way there I just prompted it one more time to fix the stupid it did and then I fixed it right That's an interesting thing that it's interesting you bring that up because that's something I've noticed about running local models and some of that like I guess what that's referred to is like the number of local tokens that are supported for context and so I've noticed that with local models you can set them up so that you can ingest millions of tokens to give it context Like here is the entire code base And I would like for you to look for these common security issues in the case of a an AI coding model that has been trained by meta or whoever And it's it's surprisingly good There was I saw I need to I actually saw this morning and I was going to Read some more about it sometime today if I had time Someone took their code repository and their github issue queue and just used one of the local models that had an absurd token length And they fed it their code base and they fed it their issue queue And they actually got two or three useful patches Out of that to solve those issues that were described in the issue queue And it was a little more work than ingest the entire code base for context Ingest the github issue feed and it's like all right, let's get to work. What do we got to do here? It's like well, here this might fix it. What do you think? It's like, yeah, this is a good idea fixed done Didn't really have to put as much work into it Yeah, that's really cool I think those are some of the edge cases, you know Just before I jumped on here and something I mentioned because I did a live stream about it was that there's a major flaw on a major tool used by a lot of people that is causing chaos at the moment and Uh AI can do good fuzzing at things and help security researchers as once again assistive tool to find Silly things that they have overlooked when they've uh wrote their code and you know leads to a big vulnerability Everyone having a panic attack over it. I think those are going to be really good future uses for it Because we just don't have enough security researchers for all the software that gets built out there I mean we have good coding practices now, but um the reality is the long tail of legacy keeps slapping us because We know there's a new product that was written when a modern architecture But this one written for 13 years ago still works So Um, I want to circle back though. What is the price point on that nvidia device there? So I was gonna ask the same thing I think these are around a thousand 1400 dollars So you're still better off with the gaming gpu if you go that route but very low power and very uh very, uh Was sleek. Yeah Stephanie watts like you got it's like i'm gonna underclock a gaming gpu. Okay. It may be kind of I mean, but Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's just so cool that some of the hardware that's coming out. Um, especially considering you could buy a you know, like a pc i board with raspberry pies on it Crazy. Yeah. Well, I think the 70 watts matters a lot One of the challenges is those super micro ai systems. Um, and when I it's the same one I reviewed on my uh channel It's it almost 4,000 watts at full load So we ran into two problems first we had to plug in four power supplies So two power supplies plugged into one side of our lab another one applied to the other side of lab Second problem is we left the door closed because it was so loud and then we realized that the lab Which is a pretty big room. It's about a 20 by 30 room or so. It was really hot in there We're like the lab is now because we were, uh Running hash cap. We wanted to see just how many passers we could crack and uh, which was amusing, but also We actually got we're like, okay. I think it could be approximately 90 degrees in this room And it's winter here in detroit for those that don't know That's what well, I mean, is it winter because I don't even know what season it is this year from one day to the next Yeah, it's beautiful today. I think we have like 55 degrees. We were like 20 degrees the other day We're back up to 55. So it's just like random. It's like a random number generator is our forecast for this year So throw a random number out there So what are some of like the do you have any hidden gems for homelab? Wendell like like some It could be something like that or anything else that people don't Really realize they could use or anything that we may not have talked about. I'm do what's new in homelab anything on your radar? Um, I really like the direction So at the bleeding edge if you're willing to get your hands dirty and that kind of stuff I I really like the direction everything is going in with homelab and homelab integration and like the standard compliance sensors where you don't need cloud connected stuff And and and also the fact that there are some really amazing viable tools That'll probably get a nice slick gooey in the next year or two For doing things like managing home security and cameras and asset protection But also just things like hey the water is running and no one's home. That's weird I should probably turn that off like that kind of stuff that kind of quality of life stuff is is really nice Because you don't always notice it's like oh that somebody you know the garden hose thing is leaking on the side of the building I never would have noticed that unless it was like hey the water is running it like three o'clock in the morning for like an hour That seems weird. That's outside The um, I I just went on a full task around the whole house. I now have I mean, they're so inexpensive I think they're by zoos the water sensors. They're inexpensive. They're all over my house Uh, I have home assistants that have to do push notifications on my phone my wife's phone And uh, we've already had one get tripped and go off someone's good news It wasn't actually a leak. Someone just tipped over Something under the sink and soaked my water sensor. So it wasn't actually a sink because we got them We put them under this. They're so cheap. I think they're like, I don't know They were on sale for like 15 bucks. So I bought a bunch And um, you know, we had a dishwasher problem, but those little things like that I don't want to trust some third party that maybe has something And as a matter of fact the battery life on these is people were saying it's like a year or two And I'm like, wow, this is kind of great and it all ties into a home assistant Uh, they have zigby models z-wave models you you know, I have zigby and z-wave on my home assistant But I think you're right seeing a lot of these devices and I have a little little one in my hand That I use just for automation all these little touch buttons and then you can program it and I'm like I have no cloud dependency if the internet's out whatever I can control my home And I never thought about this because I've never used any of the cloud ones But one of the things people my friends my neighbors because they're normal people who just use Alexa for everything And um, they were impressed you're like when you touch the button on your phone. It's instant ours like delays I'm like, oh, yeah, that probably makes sense that the cloud one sometimes delays and They're like sometimes we just finally get aggravated and turn the light switch on. I'm like, oh, yeah I touch it. It's like all local. So it's 100% like there's like this immediateness to it. I love that We can't really sell the common, uh, the internet's down so we can't turn our lights off Nobody in the house that's going to feel like that's an acceptable thing to say like what we need the internet to turn off a light switch Uh, depending on how it's set up, obviously But then of course light switches you you have them turn off and everything comes off the network So you always have the spouse approval factor if you live with somebody that they may not care about all this stuff Excuse me, but they want it simplified So I thought about these and I'm going to try them these wall mounted buttons That they're not like the normal Like if you rent you're not you're not wanting to do surgery on your electrical inside a house You don't know so you can see the words I got no battery operated little things You have the command strip you just stick on the wall as a single button on it and you just put a script behind the button and call the day but Um, that's what I'm that's something I'm going to be looking into as well I know it's relatively entry level but sometimes it's those simple things that make home assistant like hard to Sell inside your own house because some people just think it's complicated I'm still using the uh the leutron switches that are drop in 110 volt But I have the optional like stick on battery operated ones And their buttons are reprogrammable But you have to get the bridge to do it and it still works with home assistant and everything else I don't know There's probably something better by now because those switches are a year or two old But I'm hoping that you know people sort of catch on as like no This should be like a five or a ten year solution the people that early adopted the nest thermostat is like Oh, by the way, we don't support this anymore. It's like it's a thermostat like But then they're they open first it right right? They they jail appropriate right no I went with the um The and brighton z-wave ones and they because they there's no uh bridging needed they they connect fine And they also uh, they have the ability to change them right inside a home assistant You can change the settings on like they have a light Do you want the light on? When the light is on or off when the light is on so you can like program little things to it Um, I think you can program a couple other things on there. I thought was kind of cool but the and bright ones are One of the things I liked about them they offer a higher amperage switch than some of the other ones Uh, I had a couple spots because we are I have a controlling my outside lights I'm like, well, there's enough lights on the outside of my house that this is more than this is a bigger circuit Uh, and they have a couple options for that. So does honeywell honeywell's in the z-wave game with some, uh Higher amperage ones as well, which I like to see a name brand one Like that's kind of cool z-wave and no hub needed tied right into my home assistant Yeah, honeywell needs to hire and open sources are because honeywell could take over the market They've got the hardware engineering and they've got the the longevity and their their headspace is right But whoever is running their software stuff has not it's just It's disappointing It really is because they could they could be doing some amazing innovative things And it probably would pad their bottom line significantly given the wasteland of other devices that exist just You know and this is the part that always puzzled me when companies don't just give in like cool We're a harder manufacturer We could we could actually make more money by stopping the software Pushing it towards home assistant and be like the home like home assistant Hey guys, you guys are doing a great job. Keep making that great software. We're just going to make hardware Because that's where our margin is And kind of work like have a home assistant list like have something if it wants to tie to the the usual stuff But I think you're right there There's a lot of companies that could really seize the moment and say this home assistant things got some traction Yeah And one thing I think is kind of strange about that I I could see home assistant becoming like a standard, but I'm surprised it isn't by now I feel like it will be and it kind of already is in a way But it's like Android came out and handset manufacturers Realized they don't have to design an operating system Well, they have to tweak it obviously, but they they have a starting point already made and it kind of took off It kind of took off it really took off androids huge and it's in everything and home assistant can You know be pre-installed on devices and things like that in the same way But and it is happening. It's just not as much as I thought it would be by now But I could totally see it becoming the android for hope for home automation essentially No, we can't even need I like that in concept. I think I think what's going to happen is like Home assistant is probably going to take over the universe the way that linux took over the universe Basically everywhere the desktop and it's like it's right. Well, it's linux under the hood But it took a billion dollar company putting a five million dollar ui on it at first to make it like oh This is now palatable and acceptable And so somebody Well people hate change, which is you know, you know just kind of getting off my ear the linux desktop will never happen So box it's like people in my mind They're like well based on this statistic and this statistic. It's not working on the desktop. No, no, no people hate change An opportunity because you're not you're not taking down The current dominant company that's doing home assistant home assistant is something still Right Definitely for us nerds, but definitely outside the nerds There's not that many people like my neighbors Maybe they have a couple light switches tied to it because it's simple and they like tack a little bit But it's not the average mainstream. So it's still green field out there to actually build this I think There's there's there's totally a cottage industry of like if you want to be a home alarm installer You know, it's like, oh, this is the home alarm installer for whatever It totally could be a cottage industry to just be like, oh, this is the home assistant installer for blah, blah, blah For high-end homes or or whatever And you just have an LLM you talk to and it's just like, you know Hello house. I would like to listen to music and it's like, okay, let's do that And then it just you know does it and follows you around and it's not cloud connected There's no privacy. It doesn't remember things. It doesn't have a concept of rock paper scissors So, you know, you know, it's reasonably safe. It's not going to try to kill you in your sleep It doesn't know why it would do it Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly So that but also like at the low-end for home lab I've been really impressed that tail scale hasn't gone evil like the tail scale has been really amazing Yeah, it's so it's like I want to run my own self-hosted documents and my whole own self-hosted thing and it's like great Let's encrypt with the domain level authorization So you can get SSL certificates behind a firewall and tail scale and done it's like you can run your own Like why not? I'm I'm shocked. There's people in the waiting know because I've I've been in contact and talking to the developers over at net bird And they basically copied everything tail scale does but they give you a ability to self-host the control plane But it's one of those things like it's going to be hard because it tail scale is undeniably They've been a good company I mean they even took the time to contribute code to head scale because they care like I've always been kind of impressed by that with them and uh, but you know from an ease of use I recommend it to homelyte people all the time. I'm like here do this tail scale problem solved Yep. Yeah, tail scale is awesome. I I feel like I'd use it more if I left the house You know because it's like I just got to bridge things internally but for bridging something to a cloud instances um Pretty cool But one thing I want to plug before I forget because we're talking about you know Being in control of things and hosting things Why you want to host or maintain your own system? If you don't know why watch um episode season 11 episode 7 of the x-files If you watch that episode You will absolutely understand fully by the end of that episode why you have to be in control of your iot and all the things because I guarantee you Um, that's the conclusion everyone will come to watching that episode. It's like the best example of Of this it all starts because they didn't leave a tip on their meal Um with the automated uh meal delivery thing at the beginning and then chaos ensues from there on it's fun Yeah, or look at the wise cam incident yesterday. So That's simpler. Yeah. Yeah, but any x-files Seven just throwing it out there Yeah, but um, yeah tail scale. I back to the subject anyway tail scale I would uh, I'm going to probably sit down and work with that a lot more because I feel like you know bridging a vps to the local network is a great use case for that I think that's probably what i'll start with Yeah, I think um It's very freeing That knowing that you can confidently run like next cloud and you can be a little lax with the security updates Yeah, oh, you don't have to be cutting edge because it's all behind there and the Where tail scale's advantage right now is in granted. I thank you for net bird for beaten doing this They took the time to publish on google and apple. So you have device level stuff, which is good Those are the only ways like that is the minimum bar right now because tail scale said it You have to have a really good free plan. You have to have integration with all the devices that people use That is sometimes the challenge with some of these companies Especially the open source ones is actually going through the trouble of getting something published in app stores Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's head scale. But then with head scale, it's like It's exactly the problem. It's like you can't use head scale because there's no published apps unless you DIY and side loads yourself. It's like, okay Yeah, um fun thing though, then this is where back to saying tail scale is not evil I thought this was so nice of them They you used to not be able to change on the app store What if you downloaded directly from the app store not side loaded you couldn't change where the Uh head end server was they added an option They had an update where they added it and the only reason to do this was to allow competitors. I mean that is I think they did something that's against themselves So to speak that lets you switch what server so you can host it because they don't offer a self-hosted option at all But head scale is the only other option you have So they actually if I think you got to do there's instructions that has got has something like you got to tap it Five times in the spot and then it brings up a menu But the fact that that exists and I documented it means There, you know, that's a cool feature Yeah tail scale is more the whole model. I told tom this I don't know if I ever said this on air But back when I first started and I knew absolutely nothing This whole networking model that we have now with tail scales zero tier It's like how I thought networking would work when I did not know how networking works I thought oh, it's probably just a piece of software Everyone installs and they just talk to each other and then yeah, that wasn't I mean, yes, that's The tcp IP layers underneath, but it's just like it's disrupting wide area networks We don't even need like like an AT&T line like we had in you know, 20 years ago between buildings that cost like a 1500 a month Or even, you know, that's for a slow connection and now we have things like Tail scale like we could basically create a wide area network in our basement But for nothing just incredible to me that we have that ability to do that now Yeah, I'd always read the promise of like certificate based authentication as You know, like when I first read the ip spec ip sec It was like oh, this is going to be great because you can get ubiquity. This will be like ssl But you have a different mechanism for sharing the certs and like you can have this kind of secure functionality on the internet And that's not what it it's not what it ended up being at all. So Yeah, no is uh Didn't didn't really work out that way, but we're getting there now Well, you know, hamachi started a lot of this the original hamachi network that we all used and Oh, right. They were the first ones to do this And ali they used to use a public ip space at the time It was I mean it was technically public ip to the rfc, but it wasn't in use so they get away with it for a while Yeah Yeah, that's absolutely the case so I'll try to think I don't what else is on the anything else That you know is on the radar coming out or even anything on your channel that we should look out for That that you're about to review other than obviously what you just Told us about a little and video box A little video box I'm gonna go to gtc and so and take a look at the stuff that's going on there because there's some there's some You know, everybody's everybody's hot for ai and everything's taken over the world But for me for the homelab what I see ai is doing is Giving people more agency and control over stuff like we're in this weird limbo Where everything is kind of consumer hostile because every Everybody wants everything to be a subscription Right, you know, it's like right line must go up line must go up. We insist on line going up up into the right Yeah And it's never it's like I want to DIY something you've never it's like okay The large language model is going to help you change out your dishwasher or the large language model is going to help you You know refinish your deck or the large language model is going to help you do whatever You would normally You know hire somebody else to do it's going to be transformational for the economy at both the microscopic and macroscopic scale But it's also going to create a lot of business opportunities And it's also going to create like it's going to make the internet unusable probably because the same incentives that exist now for blog spam It's like i'm going to write a tutorial on like how to do this thing It's like i'm just going to go to a large language model and be like write me a tutorial for this And i'm going to copy pastes of the web and then google's going to come along and be like Oh, this looks like a reasonable tutorial for doing this and i'm going to rank it really highly and then just Everything becomes unusably bad Yeah, and that's unfortunately um 404 media just did an article on this about how bad it's getting and They called google out and it's kind of been a fun back and forth. It's google was fighting with them on twitter And they're like we're journalists We're just pointing out the fact that the worst articles are now popping up to the top that are clearly written by Undoubtedly some garbage language model that just keyword stuff this way You know, it's the old way of doing it was keyword stuffing But essentially massage this to look like an article that should be above other articles that just shouldn't And uh, kyle hill did a really good video a deep dive on the problem with these auto-generated video systems Uh that are doing it. I don't think uh, we're being done any favors with the latest open ai Release of seymour. What is it called the the new video-generated thing that open ai just released Oh, yeah, yeah kora or something Semora or something like that's got some weird name. Um, so Okay, yes, I agree with you But if if you pull this thread out like don't don't look at it down here step back and look at the the We the three of us have a unique opportunity that we didn't have before You see google being in the middle of distribution and search and everything else and then being able to sell ads Based on that they held all the cards It's so like if I wanted to run an ad or advertise something on my website and my rates were you know, $5,000 an ad Google could observe someone going to my website and then going to grandma's cookie blog and grandma was really running ads for $100 And so google could say okay, I can get that ad for those for that cohort in front of who you want for a hundred bucks And uh, not five thousand dollars. And so google could make a bunch of money on that With ai and everything being a trash fire in terms of content. We have the power again as Publishers like if we create content or if we are known or if it's just like yes This was blessed by the three of us or the five of us or the ten of us or whatever in our cohort Then that is suddenly more valuable again, and we don't need middlemen to sell That and we don't need we just like with the home assistant stuff is like it's a genuinely good product The reason I like it is because it is less human suffering for the people that use it as compared with say a nest thermostat Or the alexa smart assistant like the hardware in alexa I happen to know one of the guys that works on the alexa hardware the hardware there is incredible. There is unbelievable engineering and computer science that is in Signal to noise like it's just insane But the hardware is like I would like to run this and connect it to my local thing And maybe there's some benefit for amazon there like willing. I'm willing to spend 200 bucks on the hardware because it's that good Uh, no, no, you can't you can't unlock it. You can't do any of that And so there is this huge sea change where we are going to seize control of The publishing and take over all of this stuff. And so when you look at it macroscopically This the shift can only be the content from published from people that you get to know Is the trusted content? There's no alternative There's no in-game I I agree with that and in it's frustrating for me I run it to the same thing with you know tech articles or after work is over gaming articles Where they're obviously written by ai and it they just drag on and on and on it's like i'm trying to Figure out how to beat quest number 45 and then I look it up and it's like why quest 45 is important The history of the design of this quest the person who thought it was a good idea The company behind the game the birthday of the second in command of the company Followed by at the very end the thing that you actually went there to look for and it's so obvious Like you read the that it's so robotical that it was just people realize We could just flood articles out there and that worries me a bit But I feel better knowing because I agree. I think you you need to have that Persona like a person around the content, whether it's a blog post or it's a A video that you're getting information from a person who has took their time to vet the information just like you were saying and That makes me feel a little bit better because I do feel That we let you once you lose that human factor completely then it becomes invalidated in my opinion You remember the old days of the internet when you had page rank and people were buying domains And then it was it was like, you know, this domain is turned into something else We're going to go back to that like the the response from google the band-aid from google Is to just look at their history of all the domains and be like correct and then okay Tom's hardware and this and this and this historically those were good. And so they're going to get a huge boost Um and all of the new sites and all the new players. They're going to be locked out Which is really kind of sucks But for us, I feel like we would take people under our wing and into our community and be like Yes, so and so has written an amazing guide on blah blah blah and you should check it out because it's actually legit And so we will be able to combat some of that but google's response to this can only be to Retroactively increase the value of stuff. So it's like i'm going to be getting game guides from kotaku again. What this doesn't even make sense What world is they've already pivoted away from that kind of content I'm still mad about joysticks shutting down so many years ago, but that's just me That's such a great site But but yeah, I think that you know everyone just We watch sci-fi even people that aren't into tech and then we think that we're going to have Ultron or something out of this and then you know, it's just going to be a really bad situation, but I just feel like it's more of a Query and response system than anything else, you know, you give it a query it returns something to you and it's kind of like extending our capabilities as humans like Maybe it's just going to cut down time to program a home lab because you can just explain how you want it done And obviously there's going to be issues you can go back in and fix but Get things done a lot quicker than we could by ourselves by extending our capabilities even further. I think that's a great thing. Yeah Well, I'm going to say too I kind of took a cue from you Wendell a number of years ago when I was like looking at forums I use the same forum software you do use discourse, right? Yeah And this one reason I created my own forums so I could host it myself manage it myself be the one in control And now five years after running them I had to move servers because the load got really high and that's exactly the result I wanted I'm I was actually looking I get about 50,000 unique visitors a week and six million hits across there And I know yours is substantially bigger A lot of fun but see that but it's also content So like a lot of our community also is like, hey, we want to do discord Let's do discord and there's a lot of enthusiast communities that are in discord because it's like Instant response like you can get a thing you can get instant response But that's terrible for knowledge capture it is and that's one of the reasons I've doubled down on this I've seen a few other Epos fox had made a couple rants about it going quit sticking all your data and discourse Like it's not the place to put it put it on a public forum where others can without signing up Just research and find it if people want to sign up and participate They can you create the watering hole of good information? Like there's cruft all around us let that AI stuff do it If you know you go to the level one tech forums Wendell has really good write-ups on any of the things that you reference which I think is important There's some of the cues I took as a creator going how I like what Wendell does He talks about this project. He talks about the code for this in a detailed Step by step is all in the forums perfect other people can participate and iterate on it as well once they become participants And I think it's a beautiful thing It's it's not just that I mean it's any more Like it is mind-blowing. So we've got the launch of like the new threader per seven thousand series stuff and the threader per seven thousand series stuff Like there are so many like over ten thousand dollar builds in our forum. It's like good lord. This is crazy This is but it's lessons learned and shared stuff There's lots of weird things like if you want to use suspend like s3 suspend a lot of power supplies Don't actually have enough suspend standby power to keep eight channels of ddr5 Registered ecc memory powered. Well, that's an interesting problem that I didn't think about Yeah, and so like we actually have one guy who Destroyed his power supply only the five volt standby current and so everything kind of still works But it won't post like you've turned it off. It's a real hard Ballpoint pen trick to turn it on then or yeah Yeah, well, and then you got to clear the CMOS and then bringing it up and it's just like oh And it turns out it's because the power supply standby current was insufficient It nothing to do even with s3 suspend It was just like their their power supply could only handle like an amp or two Standby current and you need like three amps. It's like well if you're getting you know if you're spending It's three or four thousand dollars on it get like a 1200 watt power supply that's brand new like get a new It's 2024 Why does suspend and hibernate still suck and I'm looking at every operating system here Yes, linux has issues. I know but I've had problems with suspend on every operating system And how why is it in 2024? I can't like shut my computer off You know like hibernate style turn it on and boom my stuff is there and it's ready to go I mean we started working on this and then when you go into the trenches of linux and you look at like I like suspend then hibernate. It's my one of my favorite ways of doing it It suspends, but if you let it let it suspend for too long it wakes up and then it hibernates itself So it can retain this battery. It's really cool and the linux kernel supports this But they kind of just stopped and it's in limbo and it's not default anywhere We and your graphics are working on that cup at least with gddr or g at least with registered ddr 5 So when when the when the industry is bringing up registered ddr 5 or ddr 5 it's registered servers first It's always servers first, right? And then they try to get it working in the context of desktop and mobile and everything else And so things things change But uh in in desktop they never figured that servers would ever want to do s3 suspend So like s3 suspend in the context of like a server motherboard has basically never worked Oh, right, right that does make a lot of sense too because Sometimes I think about the wasted power if uh, you know companies only Operating eight to five. I don't know. They don't even have a website. Maybe they're just a local store or something Well, they still need a website But the point is if you have a server that you're not using 24 7 and it's not a 24 7 operation turn it off Like it's no one's even signing in If they can suspend that saves a lot of power But if everybody thought about that the power grid savings would be massive worldwide if if You know just the small percentage of companies that don't need a 24 7 operation just turn their servers off but then suspend I could see why that'd be hard on servers But I could also see a benefit there too if they could just get it to be reliable I really want to start a blog about all the things that are terrible with all of the different operating systems In like a funny and humorous way like I don't know how to I need like just a punchline kind of thing or like a one liner And there's so many there's so many and it's hard for me to think of them off the top of my head But like okay on windows when the first when the system first wakes up. This is why I thought of it You have to like swipe the screen or do something like if I can't just hit enter wake the machine and then type my password That is so yeah I thought about making a video One one time and I I think I'll never do this because of the youtube algorithm will make sure nobody ever sees it If it's not directly linux related But I just thought about like it just reminded me because I thought about all the annoying things that we deal with that We never talk about that are just small little problems like we copy pay we copy text It doesn't paste we copy it again. It works. We move on But why didn't it work the first time when you know you hit the copy button? Or you're using your mouse and you run it into your coffee mug and click something you didn't mean to click or You know all these little tiny things that we deal with you can computers Give me interaction digital is hard Many people anxiety I think yeah, yeah because computers do that anyway, but then We also can't figure out suspend. So yeah I like the idea of you open the thing and it's on like that should be like less than a one second operation That's how it was in the dawn of like I want to give people ancient machines Like I want to give the engineers in the software people work in this like here's an hp 200 lx from 1993 To suspend resume experience should be identical on modern hardware the input latency should be identical on modern heart You hit on it's on you hit off it's asleep And if it needs to wake itself up and then go to like deep sleep later, that's cool Just hide it from the user like how hard is this come on Why are we still rebooting operating systems anymore? Yeah Yeah, you know why why do we need to reboot a server or your desktop laptop nowadays? I never would have thought we'd still be doing that But here we are and but I also never thought we'd be using mice but I really want somebody to put an llm into Desktop organization thing because I find myself like when I need to switch gears mentally I want to switch gears quickly and workspaces is kind of useful for this But I also want to save and restore the entire state of the workspace including browser tabs And so it's just like I can't work on this anymore I need to save the state of this and my gosh If I could move that state between a mobile machine and a computer or like the computer at this desk and the computer at another desk In the computer somewhere else and I could just be like boop and then all of my stuff would go to the other machine I would be so happy He brought up tabs and I it's a it's a pet peeve of mine I don't think very many people will share this but it'll be kind of funny if it ends up being a Thing where it's called tab sync, but it isn't okay I think of sync as You know like sync thing I save a file on my desktop and it appears on my laptop And I edit it on one and then it syncs the other that's syncing Okay being able to go into your history And then query the tabs that were last opened the last time you had your laptop open last Tuesday That's not syncing. I want to open a tab in my browser And have that same tab automatically open on my other computer And when I close that tab on that computer, I want it to automatically close on the other one I want an exact one-to-one Duplicated browser tab experience, but nobody the closest thing we have is workspaces and browsers, which is My favorite obsession in browsers, but we don't have true tab sync and I wish they'd stop calling it tabs So so I I have this for certain projects that I work on like one or two days a month And my solution for this has been a vm with hardware accelerated graphics running on a server that I rdp into And it's it's usually the rdp protocol on linux because the rdp protocol on linux with hardware acceleration Which requires patches and jumping through and a lot of headache is an amazing and fast experience Whereas the rdp experience out of the box is horrible and awful and no one like No one understands what problem they're trying to solve with the rdp with the whole like oh, it's a local login Oh, it's not a local login. It's a remote lock like no one understands and The only thing that I think makes that a problem at least when I try it is watching a youtube video That's that's going to be the thing that it's going to have to be on my local computer because at least for me I've never had that Yeah, that's not the best experience if you do the hardware h.264 acceleration It is seamless and it is low latency and like once you experience hardware accelerated rdp You don't go back. Yeah, you're not going to go back It's it's it's just like oh I had no idea Yeah, and so like if you want to save the state of your like how I'm saving the state of my workspace Is literally the entire machine And so it's just like oh I had a bunch of tabs open that were research or I was looking at an academic paper paper on like rxv or whatever and It's there it's still there and I trust that it's there and I trust that an update or something isn't going to wreck it It's all it's just there like it's there on that machine And it's easier for me to just log into the entire machine and the state of the machine is there Yeah, someone brought up Vivaldi and I I'll you know touch on that real quick. Have you guys used the the newer style workspaces in any browser so far? No It's so transformative like like firefox doesn't have it, but I you know other browsers do like opera vivaldi They have it. I think chrome has it, but I don't know I don't use chrome often But imagine workspaces in your browser like you have workspaces on your desktop So I have a workspace for example system administration So I click on it and then my proxmox console true nas console whatever's there I switched to my reading workspace and all the articles i'm reading are there and I can switch back and forth And when I do all the tabs disappear and only the tabs that are in the other workspace appear And you could just keep switching back and forth. I think safari Supports this as well But I have a bug report for a wish list and firefox to get them to adopt this because literally everyone else is But it's the closest we come and so someone mentioned Vivaldi and I just wanted to yeah recognize that does have that workspace feature I feel like it's the closest we do have to a true tab sync experience But workspaces in browsers is just I feel like it's the new like how tabs Revolutionized browsing in a way I feel like workspaces is going to be like the the next thing like that on that level If only firefox would implement darn it Yeah, I I want that not just for the bra well Okay, if you live in the browser like if that's accelerating our browser only future where like the browser does everything Which is worse seems to where microsoft seems to be going with all their stuff. Yeah, which is fine Ish, I guess But I want the whole I need I need the state of the whole desktop like my terminal windows my ssh connections You know everything. Yeah, I like all of that to just be like I don't it should not I've gotten to the point where I can context switch faster than the computer and that is Good point. Yeah, the only thing that I feel like comes close to what You know we would want is like having multiple users on your computer with fast user switching and every user has different apps open You can switch back and forth But that still doesn't solve the problem of and I know we're complaining because it's like how long does it take to boot your computer? I get it But at the same time You add up all these small little tiny Inconsequential things and it adds to a bigger frustration. So the more seamless things are The better overall things can be and I think that's why we care about these things because you know We think of it like this can be better the average person thinks of it like well, that's the way it is That's the difference between people That are not techies and people that are we want it. We want to see it better Everyone else either complains about it or they don't but they still at the end of the day The world the way it is I want there's a way I can reshape it to be but People probably leave it at that because we've gone on for about an hour here. Sorry No, this is all good topic. It's I really enjoyed this Also the the screensaver thing in genom. It's like one minute increments to 15 minutes and then off and it's like really guys come on That's still It on gnome because gnome has so many hidden features and things in there like This is how to put people in a rabbit hole like and I'll ask you wendell I might have told you so you might know did you know that you can name your workspaces and no No, I didn't know that This is workspace one two three four Right, that's what it is Now there's no visibility in the gooey anywhere. No settings not even in the tweak tool You will there's no such option But if you go into gcomm You can go in there and you could type a string for each of the workspaces And it looked like someone Started working on this and probably presumably was going to have something exposed in the in the gooey So you could change this and then I don't know they just moved on to something else But the framework is there you can name your workspaces Which and I used anvil to name my workspaces so I could say this is my sysadmin workspace This is my email workspace and have them actually labeled as such But it's like they started and they stopped so there's so many settings in gnome And my point is with the screen saver thing I wouldn't be surprised if you could probably adjust it down to the minute if you go through You know the settings under the no, you can yeah, you can okay That was an assumption and I was right. Why was I right because I've been fighting gnome for years So, yeah, um, yeah, I'm watching what system 76 is doing with cosmic and it's just like I get why Why they're working on cosmic after experiencing they're like Why can't I have a 20 minutes? Why can't I have an hour because sometimes You know I get distracted by things and it's like I need this to stay on for an hour So that I know it's like oh that computer's on I need to finish the thing that I was doing on that computer And that's just because I'm so scattered Yeah, I remember when I was looking forward to the whole cosmic release This is something we haven't seen in a linux desktop for a while. So I'm true excitement. I mean, I'm here for it I've asked them like three or four times if you could please make it so you can name your workspaces on demand I would really appreciate it. They said they're interested and they might do it I'm not gonna I can't speak for them But it was funny when The popo s tiling came out and I remember I was there Not when they first came up with it But when they were announcing it and it was you know carl had this ultra wide monitor And he's running gnome and didn't like the way gnome And I don't like the way gnome is on a monitor of that size because you do you split like you tile a window on the left In the right in gnome. You have like just your monitors cut in half But they started some people started using sway because you know that that worked out better than that Like let's put this in popo s or not even using our own Us we want to so they put it in there because you know they they scratched an itch as so many other things did And the next thing you know you have sway inspired tiling in popo s Yeah Yeah, it's and that's that's the nice awesomeness of open source But I think if we're gonna ever have the year of the linux desktop It's gonna take somebody that has this kind of a mindset to become a benevolent dictator like like linus And it's like this is what the desktop experience is going to be and it's going to make sense And then people are going to use it and say oh, this is amazing That's the that's the that's the cult of part personality that apple has like apples Like somebody inside apple is doing this kind of stuff. It's like no We will obsessively get the latency on this down or we will obsessively worry about this thing And it's like there are people like that that'll do that In the in the community, but then they're also kind of hard to work with sometimes and so it's kind of like we don't ever Yeah, I tell people a lot like like I bring this up every now and then like, you know What would it take for the year the desktop to happen? It's not going to happen And you know in the way I see it I could if I could conceivably in another universe make a linux distro That is 100 compatible with every app that has ever been released. I don't care if it's ios android Windows linux, let's say this is the epitome of compatibility and everything runs twice as fast It's like the best thing ever no one's going to change to it. Why because it's change And I don't care how good it is The minute you introduce change the average persons that at work It's a work tool. They come home, you know, they socialize they relax or whatever They're not trying to introduce like a whole lifestyle change around their computer and the average person doesn't talk about operating systems So as much as I'd love to see linux take over the desktop I feel like linux is happy where it is. It's not losing any linux isn't losing any sleep about its inability to saturate the desktop So I think we're fine That's just my my opinion on the matter. It's people over analyze things It's just as soon as you introduce change Unless you have a company like apple to tell you why you need this change nobody's gonna go for it Well, I mean, let me turn the conversation. I don't know. We're out of time But this is this may be like homework go right ahead turn the turn the conversation on its on its side a little bit If you had an easier ability to do the kinds of customization that you want like the Screen saver thing which I had to dig in and find like you apparently had had the itch for the workspaces Yeah, then maybe we would see more of it's like it's easier to do the app development. It's easier to do the customization It's easier to abc xyz if you look at open source office suites Like open office like the code base and the methodology and like modern like how we do software development in 2024 And how that project is structured way different If we had a desktop environment that like if we just did What is the jolspalski had a word for this where you do the transformation like you don't change anything You just go and you do clean up and and you just make it The modern process if we did that if we did a pass like that on genom or something else like that So that you don't have to be A 17th level wizard in order to make these kinds of customizations I think that is what will lead to the year of the linux desktop because suddenly it becomes way easier for everybody to Do this llms might do that it's like asking llms like I want to customize my stuff or it's like this is weird It seems like i'm getting an extra frame of compositing what's going on and it's like Oh, you can do this or install this patch from the sky and it fixes it. Okay And I think it's a really good point because if you have to learn the technical debt In order to make the modification like oh You can't touch the hour thing because there's a chain reaction that happens when you touch it Those are the problems right once you get into kind of a modern code base. You're like, oh It's structured. Well, it makes it a lot easier to develop on that framework Yeah, and giving people better tools to be able to do those kinds of customization Making it easy making the whole development tool chain a little easier Is good and like having developed a couple of device drivers for the linux kernel for obscure hardware way back in the day um They made it really easy for developers and it's very easy to like, okay This thing doesn't belong in the kernel, but you need to build your own thing It's not an impossible task Um the way that it is for some of the other stuff so Actually, cool. Yeah, it is. Yeah. That's uh, wow Lots to think about lots of homework now. I love that's what I love about talking about home lab stuff It's like I always end up like Johnny. No, it's a good idea. That's a good idea. And then I know what I'm doing later So My favorite thing about home lab and like if you organize your documents and you organize your files Like I had I had a media collection that I stopped using for a few years Because it was like I'm streaming services are good enough and they no longer are and guess what I've dusted off My old media collection and so it's just like yes, that's what I'm guess we were having a conversation about later today Yeah, it's like the next thing me and jay were we have a uh two o'clock that we're doing and it's about that because In uh, there's actually even since chase invited me to that there's been like two more companies that have really screwed up Um crunchy roll. I think is one of them, but they're just really I didn't know about that Yeah, I got a list and I got I got I got notes I made because it's kind of crazy all these companies that you paid for You bought the media now you have no way you couldn't download it and now the subscriptions you bought and your ability to view those are gone And it's coming at quite a question. I know playstation Is one of them that did this some of the media bought it's it's kind of sad I mean we we talked about we like retro games and we talked about being one of the golden era of gaming But it's because it's the last time you can own your media games released today are so tied to these license servers and everything else Or only work with activation with an online server or interact with that server So once that server goes away the game itself becomes useless. So 20 years from now We weren't going to play those same games that we're playing in 2024 Um, they're not a lot of local install games I'm hoping to see a resurgence in that but it's really interesting because the whole concept of media ownership Like the streaming servers were supposed to solve it and they didn't the lawyers and got involved In the minute you introduce complexity into leisure time you failed I don't care if it's a game or a movie Music or a tv show whatever it is you're into You listen watch whatever to unwind Nobody wants to think about finances during that time They don't want to think about work during that time is their escape But now you know, they're being nickled and dimed at every single opportunity Constantly having to think about the money aspect of it They don't even know if the season they're in the middle of is going to be there tomorrow For them to finish it and that's the world we live in so that's just um very unsettling But we we have we'll have a lot to say about that That is a side mission for all of our audiences and all of our content is We probably should put more of an effort into organizing our audiences around Getting our congress critters to enshrine in law the first sale doctrine as it exists for books for digital media Great idea. Yeah, I mean yeah the the way I look at it if I buy a blu-ray from the store It's up to me to keep it safe if I step on it my fault if I lose it my fault It's my responsibility. But when someone else Is holding on to my media for me. I just like you're saying I want to see better stewardship of this You know, I want to see responsibility here because I'm not trying to lose an investment I want the right to format shift the media enshrined in law period. Yes, absolutely agree. Yep Absolutely One day we'll have it. I actually feel positive about the future It's up to it's only We'll only we will only have it one day if we mobilize our audiences and demand it because otherwise We're just going to be we're going to continue to be the slow boiling frogs that we are We've already seen the future. We're living it. Yeah, we're living it To me when so and when sony announced what they announced in this last thing I'll say about it I'll get off my soapbox Obviously in the end user license agreement they had the right to do this blah blah blah But I still think there should have been a bigger outcry from people people should have been everyone should have been screaming It's like people were too complacent about losing their investment Sure, it was all over the news But it was not that big it was just kind of a barely a blip in sony's Controversy history and that's surprising to me because I I feel like everyone should just make sure they understand That this isn't acceptable But as long as we let them do it they're going to keep doing it So that was that was true with books as well It's like when they before the first sale doctrine It was just they got away with a lot in terms of like well you agreed not to resale this book when you bought it And we're the only place you can buy the book So you have to agree to it There's a lot of that same sort of we're going to hold you hostage With all of this you have no choice like what are you going to do not use amazon? What are you going to do not use google and then The hilarious well not hilarious, but you know kind of hilarious story. It's ironic and it's hilarity 1984 being taken off of everybody's You know kindle a long time ago Which is like the the the worst possible book that you could take off of people's devices Yeah, I'm a follow-up or you doctor out when I do like I think he refers it to as not just the in shitification cycle But also felony contempt of business model Where you you are treated in a very poor way He's um his late his last couple books about that sees the means of computation great book along with His choke point capital as we talked tons about media ownership rights I read both of them and it's just your head's spinning when you're like god, these companies are bad Yeah, they will literally do what they're allowed to do under the law as amoral and Yeah, and they are determined to write worse laws continuously. Yeah Yep It's it's not sustainable like we we have like the fact that we have large language models that will enable the Individual to have agency like they have never had before which is incredible And so it's like let's put it to work how long until we tell something like a language model to Create a tv series centered around this kind of character with this kind of storyline in this setting and the next thing You know, we're just watching it. Yeah, but it regurgitates. It's not original. It regurgitates I can wish maybe in 50 years There was a joke that I made When I first appeared on the internet, which is the at the rate we're going We're going to be able to just say, all right Take peter jackson's lord of the rings replace all the characters with dany devido or nicklas cage and You know, let me see and that's you can you're so close to that so close We're not takingly close to that So I don't have to sink the dark side of the moon to wizard of oz manually anymore So somebody did dany devido from always sunny in bouldersgate 3 and it's just it's amazing It's just incredible. It sounds great. My favorite one so far was was uh, the cable guy in cyberpunk Nice Yeah, that was the best Oh, this is great. All right. Once again, wendell. Thank you so much for your uh, thank you for having me Yeah, that's great. Our pleasure. We'll see you around and uh, thanks. Thank you See you