 Oh, it's cold in here. Cold? I think it feels pretty good. Maybe you should wear a long pants. I brought it. It's right out of the case. It's secretly good in here. We'll bring a little blanket. I've got a coat, but it's not in the coat. Wrong. OK. So I would like to call the order. This up from the City Council meeting of Monday, July 1, 2019, Kate O'Brien Barrett Art Day. So our first order of business is the Pledge of Allegiance. Short space. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Conductions on exiting the building in case of emergency. In case of emergency tonight, please go out the side doors here and over on this side. And proceed out to the building beyond us to the south and gather at the parking lot just beyond that just before you get to the entry to 189. And I will make sure that the building is clear. So please move expeditiously. If you cannot get out this way, please go out the main door, out into the front parking lot, into the same location beyond the next building. Thank you. Agenda review. Conditions, deletions, or changes in order of any of the agenda items? Does anyone have any? All right. Seeing none, comments and questions from the public? I don't see any public. So no comments. Announcements in the city managers report. Thank you. Can you go to day 1 as I have just been announced? In the last two weeks, I really think back last two weeks busy. I don't think so. Not that I may have missed something, but probably did. Probably forgot something. No, nothing earth-shattering. OK, now I remember what I did. So I went to the steering committee meeting, which was right after the last city council meeting that we had because it was at the police station. Everybody else was there, so no surprise. I think was I the only city council that attended the Mascoma Bank branch opening on Shelburne Road in the Larkin building? Oh, I bet you were. I bet you were. I went to see everybody. And everybody was there. I have that information on the counter. They'll head forward out. The Mascoma VPs were there, and a lot of developers there. Eric Farrell was there. We had quite the greedy. And Janet Bavardier, former executive of the Coal Foundry, so went to GMP and now is another company was there. And you could walk out with a Ben and Jerry's ice cream. Oh, that's fine. And one of the little chocolate-covered ones. Yeah. That bank, this is a little lab. Trucking. You can get slice of cheese in that bank or Ben and Jerry's treat or something. And actually yogurt, I think, to the other couple of refrigerators, so. I also attended today the reading at the public library. Frederick Douglass' July 15th, 1852 speech to the Rochester Sewing Society. It was entitled The Meeting of the Fourth of July to the Fourth of Negro. There are about 20 of us, I guess, that took turns reading an abridged version of the speech that didn't take more than about 35 minutes. But it's a really powerful piece of literary history that I heard everybody in Google and perhaps show read on your own. It's relevant even still to date. And it's a really powerful product. Great. Thank you. David, too? Oh, you already said you didn't. No, I went to the steering committee. I'm like, too good if I'd forgotten about that. So yes. How's it? All right. So I also attended the steering committee meeting. And I also, with Kevin, every couple of weeks, we meet with the library board leadership and the librarian to just discuss the pending library if there's any issues. So I attended that. I had planned to go to the whole open space forum. I got my time mixed up. So I had managed to get there as they were ending an hour later. I thought it started at 6.30. And it started at 5.30. So I'll have to watch it online. And then I attended an airport commission meeting and did share once again with the commissioners some of our concerns. And I think we have a relationship. And the conversations are all cordial and good. But I think there's an opportunity for the city of South Burlington to work with the airport potentially in a really productive way by really thinking about how we might discuss or move in whatever way we plan to with the zoning, the area around the airport. If you recall, we had taken that. We carved that out of IZ. So that was not going to be discussed in any way. And it probably is time to have a conversation and to figure out what we can or cannot do. Because there certainly are companies that have come forward and are interested in some of the space. And I would like to think that we could help to utilize that space in a way that works for everyone and doesn't further denigrate the neighborhood, but rather improves it. So I think it's probably time that we think about that. And that's something we can ask the planning commission to do if the council is interested in that. So we talked a little bit about that. Should we ask right after IZ? It's over? Yes. I mean, yes. No, I think we should, after IZ is over, start that conversation and see what it is we want to do. And I am meeting with the mayor and Ms. Lott, Christine Lott, the new mayor of Winooski. And I'm meeting with them next week. So we'll continue that conversation as well. So, OK. Kevin. Thanks, Helen. Just a few things. Tom and I have completed the staff reviews for all of the management team. Went very well. And looking ahead to the future of the year ahead, trying to set some goals and some expectations around culture, work plans, those sorts of things. So they were very productive meetings with the team. And the team is very motivated and continues to be. For the public who may not be aware, we're very pleased that one of our lieutenants, Greg Jagger, is leaving for the FBI Academy in a couple weeks. This is a really high honor. This is really, in a lot of ways, prerequisite for higher positions in police departments. It's a highly sought-after placement. Greg has proven himself as a leader. Of course, the chief has gone, but we're very happy. He'll be gone for 10 weeks, I believe, to the Academy. And we'll cover his shift and all. But very, very pleased for Greg and for the department. As speaking of the department, I'm sure that you are all well aware of the arrest made just down the street here last week in a sex predator situation. Four or five of our officers and a member of the state's attorney staff were injured, non-seriously, fortunately. Several had to go to the emergency department. And they're all fine. They were out within a short period of time. But four of our cruisers were damaged. We're just very, very happy that this individual is off the street and that none of our officers were badly hurt, because it could have gotten much, much worse. And I credit the officers for their training and for their presence and all keeping this from being something could have been a lot worse. So thanks, kudos to the police department, all of them, and to the chief and to the whole team. Can I ask just a follow-up question on that? Is there any chance that that individual who rammed their cars with his car, that his insurance would be liable for that and cover? I have no idea even if he has car insurance. That might be a stretch. It was intentional. I don't know. So I'll check on it. I don't know. It just occurred to me, because that's a costly hit to our city. Our insurance will cover it. Yes, and then our insurance goes up. Yeah, you're right. I will look into that and I'll get a note out to you with that answer. Luckily, we have insurance against uninsured drivers, too. I would bet so. Which I think you're required to have. I think, yes, you are. It's no fault, actually. Last Friday, the chief and I joined Brandy Littlefield from Howard for a presentation before a group of staff involved in mental health at the Department of Mental Health and then some of the other organizations who work with them. This presentation was on community outreach. And we have some new statistics that I'll get out to you with the most recent quarter. Anyway, the last thing I wanted to comment on, I was very disappointed today, unfortunately, to get a letter from the attorney for the school district relating to the appearance before the Development Review Board of the city for subdivision for the community center. Subdivision is where the lot is divided off, and it will allow us to actually purchase the lot. The letter expressed the concerns apparently of the school board as it relates to two issues that are currently under discussion and under negotiation in an addendum that they have insisted on. So instead of letting this negotiation continue, they have sent an email or a letter to the DRB on a matter that's not before the DRB for subdivision. Anyway, it's disappointing. I assume that they still want to continue to negotiate on the addendum. But this came out of nowhere, we're blindsided by this. Can you say what the issues are? Their issues are relevant to the new road that will be put in that will provide access to their school and also some parking issues. Again, neither one of those is relevant to what's before the DRB. And we're negotiating. We're having active engagement between our attorney and this attorney. However, Elizabeth did state that that would not hold up signing the permits. Well, we're preparing all that information, but we have to be able to get the permits. And now they're raising concerns before the DRB on matters that have been in this negotiation. So we're doing this in good faith, as you'll recall, they insisted that the MOU was complete, final, I think the word was to be hung on the wall. Only after that did they come back and say that now they want an addendum to the MOU. So we're negotiating that. So this is just disappointing, it's going to cause more time. Now we're trying to get moving on those parts of the project that don't need storm water permits. It's possible, if there's no further delay, that we can get in the ground on the road in early August and have much of the work on the road done before students come back to school and parents come back to school. But we can't do that if there'll be continued delays. And so it is disappointing as we're trying to get our work done so it doesn't impede their access to the school, this sort of thing pops up. So anyway, we'll deal with it. But it's just, it's a disappointment. So that's all I got. Well, last time we met a week ago, 10 days ago, whatever the heck it was, it was they were going to try and we were going to try and have everything prepared for their signatures on their meeting on the 10th. Wasn't that where we left it? And we're still trying to get there, Dave. We're expecting to have the design work done by Wednesday and all the other documents. Now, whether or not we'll have that to them in time for their meeting on the 10th, in order to read it all, we'll certainly be there by the 10th. But whether or not they'll have had enough time to read it is another matter. They've indicated that they would be willing to have a special meeting, and I hope that they do. But either on the 10th or shortly thereafter. But we're hopeful to get this moving. But once they sign the permits, then we're still, then we're still at the mercy of the DRB in the new points they've raised. Is that how it works? Well, not really. These points are properly made under the form-based code to the administrative officer. The DRB doesn't have jurisdiction over this issue. So the DRB issues that they have would in theory not hold up the groundbreaking for the building? I mean, we can't buy the building until that's all cleared. I don't know, Dave. It could, it depends on what the DRB does at subdivision. So. Realistically, I would hope they don't have much question. This is not exactly like we started it yesterday. No. I mean, it's been a couple of years in the making. So hopefully there wouldn't be a question. Tim? Well, I don't know the motivation other than if they're just trying to ensure that they have interested person status even at that level for subdivision. I don't know if they're not here to speak to it. But if it doesn't impose any kind of an obstacle to the DRB, simply going ahead and considering that application, then I guess you don't have any choice just to move forward with it, right? I think that's absolutely. It will. Yeah, we should. We need to. The worst case scenario is the DRB sees a letter and goes, what is this, right? I mean, it would be different if it were a case where it was like a PUD and, you know, we're in an interim zoning and the TDRs are in flux. It's nothing like that at all. It's simply a statement by an interested party concerning this application. It's just testimony, apparently, right? Well, and if that's what it is, then we should just keep moving. Well, we will. We will certainly try to. But they're asking the DRB to take specific actions that are on matters not before the DRB, which is confusing at best. But I have faith that the DRB can figure that out and won't get waylaid by something that. So what prompted you to say we might be able to get some of this roadwork going August 1st? What's changed because, last I thought, we were looking at pushing that all off till first thing? Well, not the building. The building can't move forward without the permits for a stormwater. But the road is covered under a different stormwater permit. So we could get that roughed in. And one of the things they want is what they're calling unfettered access. Well, if we can get the road in. They've got unfettered access. They've got unfettered access. But if we can't get the road in, and it's just a construction zone for, then it's it's feathered access, I guess. I've never heard that phrase. So why wouldn't we be able to get the road in? I mean, it seems like I thought that was something we were saying, unfortunately, we're going to have to wait till schools out next year to do this. And now we can do it. Now you think we can pull it on? No. What we're waiting next year after school is to do stormwater stuff. Which includes the parking lot. And the parking lot. So if we can do the road. And paving the road, probably. So if we can get the road in, giving them the access that they want, before or as soon as possible after the students comes back, and Market Street's done, then they should, when it gets done and passable, probably in late September or early October, then they're going to have the good access. They should jump up and down and be excited. You'd like to thank them. Well, let's just hope it is. We don't know what the impetus is. Maybe they just want to underscore their concerns about safety. And this is just another way to do that, although it won't be responded to by the DRB. OK, let's move on to item six. The consent agenda. I would entertain a motion to approve ABC&D as presented. So moved. Is there any discussion? Yes, just very quickly. I want to thank Jennifer Smith for agreeing to be the ultimate member of the Development Review Board. I appreciate that as she filled out her second term completely and agreed to do this. And that fills an important vacancy for us that where we might need it. Just expressing appreciation to Jennifer, thank you. And the disbursements, normally, I know you've got some vacations going up in your offices, right? So normally we get a sales spreadsheet in the box for the warrants. And it was a PDF this time, but that's OK. I mean, I know it's July, August. Yeah, it was a little late putting it together. And so we had to send it out separately. That's OK. Yeah, that's all right. OK, if there's no further discussion, we have a motion that's been made and seconded. So to have the vote, all in favor of approving the consent agenda as presented, say aye. Aye. Aye. Passes. OK. Moving on to item 7, consider and possibly approve the tax rate. And we have Martha Lyons. She'll be presenting some written material. I mean, some material that was, this didn't go out in the box, did it? This was separate. This came out this afternoon. Yeah, because you didn't get the number. We got the school education tax rate. Well, you did. OK. So do you want to step us through this, the highlights or whatever? Sure. For the due dates, I just checked the calendar to make sure, and the only one is the March installment. The 15th is actually a Sunday, so I put the date as March 16, 2020. For the third installment I can do. Pleasure to meet you. The first two are fine for August 15, 2019, and November 15, 2019. And then I can walk you through if you want how I come up with the tax rate, if you like, or if what I handed out is sufficient. I don't understand how the TIF proceeds. Yeah, I didn't get the TIF stuff. So one of the things that I have to do is offer a report that Todd generates from the grand list is the TIF increment. And then the math behind that, this year the TIF increment was 9,373,866. Can I have just a little bit more detail than that, Martha? So Todd does the grand list for all properties, exclusives of whether they're TIF or non-TIF properties. Correct. Then you take the TIF properties and subtract them from the grand list for your work. Yes. OK. So once I have the TIF increment, we can keep 75% of it from the state, so I multiply by 75%. And then since our assessed value is per 100, you multiply by 0.01. And then I have to multiply that value by the municipal tax rate. So that comes out to $38,069.61, which goes in for the TIF proceeds. I then have to increase the tax rate to make up for that difference because it comes out of the general fund. So that's where you see the adjusted municipal rate. And under the city operating, it went from 0.5308 to 0.5320. And then you add in the open space and then the local agreement for the veterans exemption. And add those all up, and that is your 2019-2020 municipal tax rate. Penny for Path is built into the general city operating. The open space is a separate. Because I didn't see that. Yeah, OK. Yes, that's already added in. So that is added into the voted approved amount to be raised by property tax, the $16,431,649. That includes that Penny for Path weighs. Did we put into the city operating and not have it separated out because it has a time certain? It's only for 10 years or five years? The debt service is for 10 years. OK, and that's why we did that. But this is now incorporated in as part of the general fund. It's not separate. No, it's not separate. Like the open space, that Penny is separate because that's ongoing every year. OK. If there's something else that's going to be ongoing every year, we can break that out. But where this is for a limited time, it gets added into that. Thank you. OK, are there other questions? So we're going from 0.5308 to 0.5302. OK. Can I ask what the TIF proceeds were last year? Last year, they were 19,000 and some change just under 20. And do you remember what last year's final tax rate was? Municipal only? Municipal only was 0.5080, I do believe. Well, we added the penny for PAS. Yeah, I know. Which is part of it. And then? And I know that, well, keep going. So now add it in the education tax. Yes. So the total municipal rate for 1920 is 0.5427. And I just did some quick math because I know in the budget book there was for the average assessed home for what the increase would be and the average assessed condo. Those are now going to increase on the municipal side. The average home assessed at $337,856 is going to increase by $115.89. And an average condo assessed at $232,790 is going to increase by $79.85. And yes, there was an increase on both the education rates, both the homestead and the non-homestead tax rate. So the last sheet I saw on the internet said that the top three tax rates in the state were Winooski, Burlington, and Middlebury, I think. And it was like 2.4, 2.6, and 2.85, something like that. So I think this just knocked us up into like fifth place maybe, or sixth place. Probably. Any other questions or comments from either Martha or anyone in the council? What happens next year if, well, so what's going to happen next year is the Champlain Housing Trust comes online, building comes online, but it's from a non-profit. So will that TIF proceed go up even more than when that building is completed? That is more of a question for Todd. OK, I can wait. I can wait until then. That's right. To answer your question, yes. Yes. It won't go up as much as if it wasn't restricted, but it'll go up, yes. And there's also when the first commercial building comes online, let's say the following year, which we hope there will be. It'll all go up correspondingly, yeah. There's four new buildings at the east end of Marcus Street that were built. Oh, the housing ones, yeah. They're only partially built this year. I would say 30% or so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That'll come on also. But we do collect or assess on the 30% that's built by, is it April 1st or something, whatever it's done by April 1st? Is that right? It's on the ground on April 1st. So you get some tax. We got something there, yeah. Todd LeBlanc, I'm the assessor. OK, are there any thoughts we need to vote on this, right? No, there's nothing you really need to vote on. We don't have to approve the tax, right? We'll approve by the voters. Sure. In the past, I think you've approved the dates, but the dates pretty much flowed. It's more, make sure I looked at the calendar correctly, but should we look at our calendars to double check? I know they've already asked somebody to do that, so OK. Is there a way for, so the voters approved 16-4, right? But we're actually, it was 16-4-3, but we're actually going to be trying to raise, or 16-4-7 approximately, right? Was there a possibility of being able to predict that $38,000 back in March for that, to put a better number in front of the voters? Or was that the? That's for the TIF proceeds? Or was it just not known at that point in time? We could probably take a guess by using the current year tax rates to see with the new values what it would be. But then again, it depends upon, because that's based upon the education grand list, or the education, sorry, tax rate, is how I do the TIF proceeds. Maybe it's a proposal that when we do this budget process next year, that we at least offer that information, maybe not on the ballot item itself, but as an addendum in the process saying, but based upon what we think the TIF proceeds will be, the actual number that will be needed will be this, which means that the $89 increase could be $115, I mean, just to give a rating. If you don't really know the exact number, but you know it's going to probably be more, you might want to give a warning on what that range would be, if that's easy to do or feasible. If you, as part of that, you might want to say what is the total increase in the grand list for that year, which also we don't really know at that point. It's an educated guess. But I think you need to put it in the context of the total grand list went up $1 million. The TIF portion of that was $100,000, so the net increase for tax purposes for the grand list is $900,000. That would put it in the context of how much the grand list went up, which I think would be important to do. Any other questions, Tim, or David? No, not at all. It's pretty, I mean, it's complicated to begin with. So it's explained about it as well as it's going to get explained. I think it's relatively clear. OK, thank you very much. So actually, Todd, you can just get comfortable. Item eight is consider and possibly approve a contract award for appraisal services. I think Andrew has sent you guys all the pack of stuff that I got. We did put the RFP out. We got one answer. It was the company I had hoped it would be. It's the company who did our last one. I knew that they were going to be in Burlington at the same time period. And in doing so, we got a very, very verbal rate to do it. So basically, now it comes down to I just discussed with Andrew the legalities. He went through what was sent out. He doesn't see anything that can't be negotiated in making the contract. Nothing outlandish. And it should be fine. So basically, what comes down to is I need you guys to authorize me to tell them yes as I go. So they're going to be in Burlington? And they're reassessing parts of Burlington? All of Burlington. All of Burlington. Right. And are they intending to work in parallel on South Burlington with extra people or finish Burlington and do South Burlington while they're here? They will have multiple people. Neither municipality will be shorted. The people who are the experts running the show will probably overlap. One of the biggest benefits of doing it at the same times the sales data that they'll be collecting, Burlington and South Burlington at the same time. And that just gives it a larger base to extract our numbers from. So it's beneficial to both both Burlington and South Burlington, more beneficial to us because we've got a much better dollar figure. Is Burlington comp information relevant to South Burlington for assessment or, I'm sorry, for reappraising? Yeah, yes and no. Yes and no. They have leg front. We have leg front. They have much more commercial than we do. We don't have really any industrial. But the houses are houses. And if you have similar neighborhoods, then yeah, it's relevant. We came in under $50 a parcel. And most of what I had seen out there was probably a low of $75 to a high of $110. So that's pretty good. And can you just briefly tell us what their process is? I mean, they're going to randomly choose a number of properties to audit? They will inspect conceivably every property in person. They'll make three attempts. Yep, three attempts to get in. If you can't get in after that, you send a questionnaire. How many houses? We have about 8,000 total parcels. We have over 3,000 condos in around 3,700 houses. So they'll go. They'll inspect every one of them. They'll verify the information we have as far as bedroom count, bathroom count, finished basements, quality of the interior. Take pictures of the outside of the house on two corners so that we get four sides. Do a sketch and move on to the next one. They'll do a sweep of a neighborhood. We will have, they'll be identified wearing vests. The biggest thing that we do once we get this rolling, because they're supposed to start in August, as was our date, is public relations. Get it out to the people that we're going to be doing this for the 2021 grand list, not next year, the year after. So we've got a year, two years to do this. We don't want anybody surprised. They know it's coming. The last three appraisal, people were shocked because their values doubled. And it wasn't a shock to me. I knew they were going to. But the publicity, the people weren't informed as well as they could have been. So this time, we're going to keep an eye on that and get it out to the people so they're not so shocked, if you will. So what you're saying is people, the values doubled, but that didn't necessarily mean their taxes were going to double, and people didn't understand that. They didn't think their assessment was going to double. And because they didn't understand that the tax rate wasn't going to stay the same, that's when they got panicky. But yes, you're right. When the value doubles, you don't get to make any more money from a reappraisal. You get to adjust the tax rate accordingly. And a lot of people didn't understand that. Now, some people's values are going to go up. Right now, the market's higher than it was in 2006. So we're expecting it to go up unless something happens the next two years. When it goes up, yours might go up. And you're going to say, hey, how come mine went up so much? And yours may go down. And you're going to say, I don't want to say down. Lower than expected. And you're going to say, well, why didn't his go up as much as mine? What that means is you skated through for the last 15 years, and you've been overpaying for the last 15 years. That's the biggest goal for this reappraisal is that after 15 years, there's inequity, even on the street. One person comes in when the market's down and says, hey, my assess value isn't what you've got me at. And they're right. I've got to change it. I can't assess it any more than 100% of value. So when they're right, you change the value and you go on. The guy on either side never comes in. Now the equity in taxes is off. And that's the biggest thing of what we're trying to eliminate right now. So remind me, are we trying to get everybody assessed at fair market value or what? We're going to shoot for 100% fair market value, yes. And like I said, some houses will go up more than others. And we won't know until we're actually done. And the company makes the determination as to what fair market value will be? Yes. We look at the sales. The sales of all the properties, I'm going to use the airport, for example. Williston Road, Patchin Road, and the airport, that's a neighborhood. All the houses over there are roughly worth about the same per square foot. So if you grab 60 sales, you know pretty much how much a square foot is worth. And then you go through and you make the values on the properties based on their square footage and how many bathrooms they have and how many bedrooms, and if they have a finished basement, if they have a garage. So you put all the attributes in, and then you've got your background numbers that will be figured out by looking at the sales, and it spits out a number. And that number should be generally pretty close to fair market value. We're doing commercial as well. Yes, except for the airport. In general, if you look at the age of a home being the oldest of the newest, probably the disparities are greatest in those older homes as you approach the newest homes. Because when they're built and constructed, the price you pay it is the assessed value, right? In general, brand new homes. You could take a brand new home, saying over in O'Brien or in South Village. And the value that's established is based on sales. But one house may have all these extras that they added in. Gold faucets and chrome countertops, and God knows what. That in the real world aren't going to make a difference in the sale, OK? So you can't penalize them for that, because it's not the fair market value. It was a value to them, but it's not the general public wouldn't appreciate what they did. So that sale price isn't necessarily its market value. But in a newer development where the homes are all going for like 420 to 480, you're probably going to have assessments in the 480 range, let's say, right? There'll be first plus. Whereas in a neighborhood that was built after the Korean War, and it's getting a little hot because of a certain school that might be near, those neighborhoods, you can look at the sale prices and the assessed values are down here. And this is currently, when we're done, boy, right? That'll all change. Yes, exactly, right. Queen City Park is a good example. Queen City Park has been around for a long time. Traditionally, it wasn't one of the better neighborhoods. Now some of the sales are mind-boggling, and that's going to affect Queen City Park's values. It's an interesting process. It is. Yeah, there's a lot to it. I appreciate the outreach and education to the public because it is difficult for people to understand it, and it's become very personal, my home. Exactly. Well, remind me, when I bought my first house in 92, the assessment was 66 and 2 thirds, I think. That was the assessed value, and then they changed it to 100% of the assessed value. As long as I've been doing it, it's been 100%. In 98, so I think in 92, the assessments were based on 96 and 2 thirds, right? Then at some, huh? Then after that, they went to 100, and then there was a reassessment, and there have been two reassessments, I think, since 2006. There was one in 98, 2006. There's something called the common level of appraisal. Right now, it's 93. something percent. That may be what is being referred to. No, no, no. When I first bought my house on Meadow Road, the tax bill, the assessed value of the property was at 66 and 2 thirds, and then they did a change a few years later, and the value of the property was raised to 100% of its true appraisal. But then the rate changed as well, so it was a net sum of zero, a difference of zero. Well, that's what'll happen, and that's what it's so important that people understand, because if they don't get that through clearly, then people get really scared really fast. Right. And that's just, I see that. You just said it a few minutes ago. That's the most critical part of the whole thing, I think. In the last reappraisal, Pinnacle Drive was the hotspot, and there weren't any sales in the year or two before the reappraisal. But being the hotspot, they ended up having the highest increase in value. Now, there's, I think, 60 houses in there, and there weren't any sales. And then after the reappraisal, there was 15 sales. And it came down to the people were panicking over the taxes, when if they'd have just watched and paid attention, yes, the tax rate's going to drop. And you will feel an impact, yes. Will it be double? You've got, speaking to the public education plan that we really need to put together. When is the first date at which members of the public, homeowners, would start seeing activity and questioning it? Is it the May 1, 2020 field collection? Somewhere in there, yes. So we have a little. We have a nail down the date, but it'll be the spring of next year. About 10 months. 10 months to really start putting information out to the public as to what they can expect. OK, we'll be sometime in August. We'll get this done. They have to start, I forget what the date was. But it's in August. And that doesn't mean they come in with a whole bunch of people and start doing things. It means they come in, we sit down, and we iron these things out. How are we going to do the public relations? Where are you guys going to be in here? What do we have for equipment coming? Because the price that's in here is their contract. We're going to have other expenses on top of that. But we're going to hash out where they're going to work, what equipment we need, do they need a printer, do they need a color printer, things like this. So that technically is the start. And then they'll start gathering the sales data. That's something that can be done in the winter time because it's all numbers. The field inspections, generally in the spring when you can get out and not be stuck in a snowstorm or muddy roads type thing, which we don't have to deal with. But we'll get it done as soon as we can so that come the next spring, when we have to put out the values, we'll have that stuff ready. When they're done, they give you a CD with everything they did, all the pictures, all the spreadsheets, all the reports and everything. You did last time? Last time. So every picture they took of every house is on a CD that you were given? OK. Just making sure to go for 13 years ago and now it's somewhere. So when they pull sales data, where did they get it from? Clerk's office, MLS. They've been doing this long enough. They've been doing this for like 80 years. So it's not like it's their first rodeo. Probably have a pretty easy way to do that. They've found ways to do it, which is why they can do it inexpensively, comparatively. And they've got their methods, and I'm sure they're not going to tell us. But when I have to do it, I go to the sales. I Google. I got a sale that comes through. It's a half a million dollar house and it sells for $900,000. I Google the address, find the sales ad, grab the pictures. Oh, look, it's got a finished basement. Oh, look, they read the indication. These are the things that you find in the best way I can because I'm limited in manpower. But I'd be able to use those resources. It'd be nice if we had MLS, which we'll probably get for this. And there's an Allen and Brooks report. They're a company that does commercial reappraisals. And they have a big thick book. They do all the commercial sales in the area. And that's an invaluable tool for doing commercial stuff. And all of the money, the $389,000, that's set aside in Montpelier in the state. So it's funded in part. It's here. We have it. We have it. We're giving money every year, roughly $75,000, to maintain the grand list and for reappraisal. And that's been saved. And we're going to save $500,000 right now. And then over the next two years, we'll have another $150,000. So we've got the money to do it, which is good. Last time, we used five years with the savings and five years going ahead to pay for it. Otherwise, we'd have even more money now. But that was how they planned it last time because the window was so close, 98 to 2,600 in eight years. Well, I have moved to be approved to contract the word pilot. Pilot technologies, yeah. And not approve the contract because we haven't settled the contract yet. You're just authorizing me to, oh, yes. To negotiate the contract? Yeah. Would that be the right term? The word to award the contract to Tyler. So can I move that we approve your ability to award a contract for reappraisal services? Second. Any further conversation, discussion? All in favor? Signify by saying hi. Hi. OK, thank you. And let me just clarify, we pay for that with our regular budget for this? No. As Todd noted, we get money from the state. I'm sorry, I missed that. We have a savings account that has the money. If you have ideas on how you want to publicize, get those ideas to me, and we can work them out. Can we talk about Hannaford and LaQuinta? What happened there? Oh, yeah. LaQuinta, they both appealed by headhunters. LaQuinta headhunters. Their companies out there that do this, that's their business, appeal properties. LaQuinta, when I looked at it, I was shocked they hadn't appealed before. They had originally been hotel and a piece of land separately because it was leased from, I think, Palma Lo in the shopping center. So they had two separate assessments. And at some point along the way they bought the land, it got combined together. And nobody ever looked at it. So when they came in this year, it's like, hmm. So I looked at it. And for some reason, their land grade was almost three times what everybody else's was, for one. And then their grade on the building itself. So I compared it to all the other hotels, Colony Inn, the new ones, all these hotels around in the area and graded them accordingly to be fair and equitable. And that's what happens, the value they were right. They picked a good one to appeal. They made money on that one. Lowe's tried to appeal last year. That's the Hannaford one, I think. Tried to appeal last year, they missed the deadline. They also appealed in Essex. And we worked, the Essex Assessor and I worked together to come up with a rebuttal to what they had sent in, which was correct but not as correct as they wanted it to be. So that one there could have been even less. But again, they were right. Lowe's here and Lowe's in Essex have two different values as they appear because in Essex they own the land. Here, they lease the land from Hannaford's. So it's in a different window. But the drops are real. Well, looking at that, what's the story with the latter day saints? That was a property that's non-taxable. They're looking to sell it. Being non-taxable, nobody ever looked at what it was worth on paper. It doesn't mean anything because it's non-taxable. So the people coming in who wanted to buy it said, hey, whoa, and I looked at it and they had an appraisal done. It was pretty simple. It was some simple number calculations, changing some grades and stuff. So that doesn't affect anything. The other big one is Morway, third one down. That was the Eau Claire Farm. Oh, okay, fine. They subdivided it up in the last. Now, something you don't see on there that affected your tax rate was the Tilly Drive sale. Two building sold out. Okay, you mentioned that. They were, yeah. Came non-taxable. Went from taxable to non-taxable. I've reached out to the medical center because they have a history of providing a payment and a lieu of tax tax. It's not as much as they were taxed when it was privately owned buildings that they were leasing, but they are working on that schedule for us right now. But that's outside of Todd's right. But I knew it had happened at Escalapius. When they bought those buildings, they volunteered to pay a pilot because they knew there was an impact to the city. And I told Tom, I said, you know, they do it over there, check and see if they'll do it over here. So, that was a big hit. Move some role in that legislation way back, wine. Pilot, yeah. Amy Devonport and I introduced it. Yes. Yeah. Are you aware of what the, Are you aware of what the original sale price was of the Latter-day Saints property? Boy. No, just, I mean, recently when it was first bought with a sign. No, it hasn't, but there's a sign up front, right? And I could have sworn I looked at it and I thought it was like 900 and some odd thousand. Then I read in the paper that the Islamic society wants to buy it, but they're looking at a price of 1.1 million and like, was there a bidding war that occurred on that property or what changed or what did I miss? I know there was other. I know there was interest. There were others interested. I don't know what it will sell for yet. Yeah, I know what the appraisal came in. Right. If it's in a butter, for instance, they may pay more for it. Somebody else may just want it more than somebody else. Yeah, I was just curious. There have been bidding wars that have been erupting lately in just regular residential real estate. Right, it's a good location. Yeah, that's something that will be compensated for in the reappraisal. Sales of properties like that don't happen a lot, but the more we can get, the better off it will be. Okay. Any other questions about any of these? No. Some of them are kind of shocking though. It's like, whoa, yeah. David, did you have another? No, that's it. I mean, those things happen. Oh, yeah, yeah. All right, thank you very much. Thanks, Todd. Thanks, Todd. All right, number nine, we need Amanda, don't we? This is a public hearing and possible action on amendments or repeal of city ordinances. I move that we enter into a public hearing on the repeal of city ordinances, motor vehicle and traffic ordinance, and parking ordinance if we can do them together. Do I have a second? Yep. Okay, all in favor? Yeah. All right. So we will open this public hearing and we'll take a moment and get our lawyer. We're ahead of schedule, so. That's nice. You know, usually we're behind, so. We have three members of the public here for the public hearing. Okay, maybe one member of the public here for the public hearing. Okay, got one. What is it about our agenda tonight? There's only one, really three people in the audience. Hmm, let me try and figure that out. I guess it's probably good. It's also to have put in these new ones. Uh-huh. Yeah. It'll be quiet. This doesn't usually happen. I know. I'd be glad to read you this speech by Frederick Douglass, while they're going. You don't want comments at this point. Is there anybody who can't have comments? I mean, I'm ready. Okay, sure. But I guess we can. Although Amanda might want to hear them to help us. Yeah. Okay. Shouldn't be long. How things your end of the street. Good. I'm going to mess up my house though. I hear a re-appraisal is coming. Let it over to Robert. But that does it. Ha ha ha ha. Well, be a good excuse for me to tell Jane to stop the landscaping. Yeah, right. No more of that. No more trips to Lowe's. It's amazing how those accelerate in the warm weather, you know? Okay, so we have opened our public hearing. And this is our fourth hearing on this. Greg? Hearings, maybe the second or third. But there have been some drops. Yes. I'm the deputy city attorney in Andalafri. And the council has seen the parking ordinance and the motor vehicle and traffic ordinance before. The only changes from the last time are from the, are to the parking ordinance. And that was to paragraph three A, the double parking. Explanation, and then in four, the opening paragraph, instead of 12 hours, it's 24 hours. Is the ceiling on the time period that these types of vehicles can be stopped or parked on a public road or highway. Those were the only changes from the last time. That's correct. Okay. Is that all I can comment on is the last changes? No, you can comment on the whole thing. So it's Bob Britt, three Adams court. Bob Britt, three Adams court. And I just want to say I'm so appreciative of the city and the council for adding sections of the ordinance. And I'm so appreciative of the city and the council for adding sections like on vulnerable users to the motor vehicle and the rec path on the parking ordinance. And that's been great. I just had one comment on the wording on the motor vehicle one and it was 10 E. And again, this is a concern. Right now it just says a person operating a motor vehicle shall not turn left unless the turn can be made at a safe distance from a vulnerable user. And I don't know why it wouldn't say left or right because the right turn is the one that's most dangerous for bicyclists and for pedestrians when people glide through the stop sign or the traffic light and just instead of just saying left and I'm not sure maybe there is a reason why it's just left. The rest of it the A through D. I mean does everything's great. I think it's because the state law for whatever reason didn't and that's I'm sorry I'd have to brush up on the details but the state law didn't directly address that either. They only had the language for a left turn in the maybe that's what it was was in the vulnerable user sections but I could be misremembering that. The vulnerable user in this case in making a left turn would be somebody on the opposite side of the road going in the direction you attend to go, right? Coming at you would be if you're taking a left turn in a car as a driver. I'm thinking if you're the driver of the car let's say and you want to make a left hand turn the vulnerable users I'm thinking of are the ones going from right to left on the road that you want to continue on to probably. I was thinking it was oncoming. I mean it could be oncoming. It could be the ones coming from both directions. Right. But I'm talking about a car taking a right hand turn which is where you get the most conflict. Sure because they're coming from your blind spot or your right shoulder. It seems almost the right is more of a concern than the left. Left turn crosses two lanes right where a right turn only crosses one lane. And if you have a vulnerable user in your lane gets turning right with you they should be either in front of you or behind you. They shouldn't be turning at the same time as you. As opposed to going straight. As opposed to going straight or whatever. I mean I see your point. Well pedestrians are included. Right. Okay. That's also part of it. Is there any legal reason we can't add right? No I just wish I could remember the explanation. But we were trying to make these similar to the state. Yeah. Or reflect that. So that's true. So Bob that was our template. And they were silent on it. But that doesn't mean we have to be silent. I mean I think your point is well taken. But why don't we you know I mean did that become a tickable tickable offense then. I don't if it you know somebody says well that's that's contrary to state law and where was I supposed to find out that South Burlington has a different rule. It would it would be deemed if that were included it would be considered and someone did not follow that then it would be considered a violation of the ordinance. And ignorance of the law is not an excuse. So no except if it's somebody that if it's different from every other town in the state how like do we expect somebody to know what it is in self-protection. Oh I wasn't making a left turn. I was making a right. So it's okay to hit somebody. That's an extreme. That there and there certainly if someone even if it's not expressly in you know the state the city's ordinance if someone is driving unsafely or you know sure that wouldn't need to be expressly but Bob's trying to avoid someone being hurt. Yes. I don't have the answer to that at my fingertips. Okay. If there's nothing legally preventing us from putting that in would you be in favor then of adding right into there. Right. I might. Yeah right. A little differently but I mean add more than just you know and right. But yes that's right turns to it's allowed. Yes. Well let's do I think that's probably the thing to do. But I don't have full knowledge you're going to you're going to do some research and find out if we're going to we're going to get ourselves into this and go through the process. Yeah we do. Any other ones that we got to think about Bob. This is our second round but sorry. That's alright. That'll give us more time to not like it. I still think 50 feet is too far from the intersection but that's okay. I have a that was okay. He's talking about parking. Parking. Yeah. It's fine. It was. D 3D. In the parking ordinance and that was I checked in. That was a request from the. Public works. And that's like. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Sorry. I don't like it's an emergency. So that's why you have all these hearings. Right. That's the process. So. Is everyone amenable to. Let's go for six. Okay. So if you will read draft that one section. So it includes in. Logical language making a. Right turn. And. The consequences to a vulnerable. User. We'll get it done. Okay. We need to move to close the public hearing. So are there. We need to. And then set the next one. Yes. Are there any other comments from the public. All right. Close the public hearing. Second. All in favor. The public hearing is closed. And we need to set a date for. The next one. So that is. Right. It has to be. Because three weeks. There's not enough time. And working with the. The other papers schedule as well. August 5th or the one after. Yeah. Anyone going to be here. I'll be here. I can be here. August 5th or the 19th. Right. I will not be here on the 5th. I will be here on the 19th. Tim. I should. I'm both. Yeah. It's not an emergency. You can wait. Either or. So go to the 19th. That's fine. Not like we're going to smash and hurry on this. Right. Doesn't matter. And. You know on the bright side it will also give the. City. Time. Additional time to complete the fieldwork for the. Resolutions that. Both ordinances. Call for. Right. Okay. So we'll work to warm that for the 19th. Okay. At a time certain. I'm 730. That's how good. Okay. On the 19th. For us. I mean if you could we could put the consent agenda on the. On the other side of if you want and get her into it earlier. If that works with the public so that she can. Go home earlier. If she prefers to do that. Either is. Well seven o'clock. 730. But. We can. We'll go ahead. No we can we can do it right after the right before the consent agenda. Sometimes you have executive sessions that are hard to anticipate at this point. That's true. Okay. Let's stick with 730 then. It's still light then. It's not the middle of winter. You'll be able to go home in the. Days will be getting shorter. They are. Don't say that. My husband does that all the time. I don't want to hear it. Start saying. We just started. Forgot. This will be forming on the milkweed. All right. So 730 on the 19th of August. And you'll have the resolutions. Perhaps. Ready. At that point. Thanks. Okay. Thank you very much. Enjoy the rest of the evening. Okay. Item 10. Council discussion and advice related to an interim zoning open space committee classification. And scoring of a 15 acre property in the southeast quadrant is Paul. Are we just. Like. Freewheeling this one. Paul's upstairs. If you need him to come in on this, I think he understands what's going on. Perhaps the folks. I think I do too. Would you want to come forward and. Why don't you sit down and introduce yourselves to the camera and then. I mean, I think I understand this that. When the open space committee. Was looking at parcels for interim zoning. The 15 acre carve out of parcel B in the sale with your family. Was in it was left in. So they were looking at the whole parcel. That and included your property. Yeah. Yes and no. So Robert and Jennifer more way. So it was really just a question I proposed and I think Megan wanted. An answer because she didn't really know. Which is how we're here. But so if you look at. That 15 acres and you go through every one of those maps. There's nothing. There's no. Right. Period. Or. There's no wetlands. There's there's none of the things that they're looking at for their. Tier one. Tier two. Tier three. There is slopes. Obviously that's the thing that does come up. Slope. So you said. Yeah. You get the highest point. So there are. Is this where the old. Barnes look. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So it's that highest ridge. Yeah. Yeah. But the one thing that does come up. That makes it a tier one and like a problem zone is. It's on the two thousand and two open space. Map. So that where South Burlington wanted open space. And so Megan was saying it had to be something related to. Environmental for it to be on this open space. Map. But then we couldn't find a backup for that. So no one was really quite understanding. Why just that. Curve is all blacked out for open space. So I guess the question that was being presented. And so the idea was is it that that was based on an old. Report. And maybe it's either outdated and valid or. In other words is it supposed to be on. Because if it's on a tier one. What open space is using for tier one tier two tier three. If it's on tier one is anything that's on opens. The two thousand two open space map. That's like a. Big red flag for. Being able to build something there. For points. That's like the second. I'm kind of going off of them. So they have it makes sense the way I'm not opposed to anything that they're necessarily doing on this. It's really just a question about it. But so what they have. Three tiers listed. And if the things that are most important are not necessarily on tier one. And if you get a certain amount of points on tier one then. It starts limiting building that can happen. Tier two there'll be other things. So on tier one. One of the top ones is is this land designated on the two thousand and two open space. So it is but it's not designated towards anything else but that can kind of cancel out. Everything so without knowing why. Without anyone knowing why it's on that two thousand and two open space. Report. That I don't know but I. But I also understand the. The few minutes I was there the open space. Committee is looking. I mean they're looking at all the property and then they're trying to winnow it down to the top. I don't four or five parcels it's not. Enormous. Numbers of parcels. As I understand it to actually. Say these are our top priority so if the city were to go about. Wanting to purchase let's say some and invest in some more open space. These would be the. Primary is to. Right and I that's kind of what I was honestly thinking of why it was on the two thousand and two open space it wasn't actually environmentally listed. If that makes sense is I know at one point this the town was talking about wanting to purchase that but then since then they've been given that opportunity they didn't want to purchase it. So I guess my question was if that was the case why. Why are they looking at it. Have you talked to them. Yes so she sent me here. Because she had a discussion with the committee about what they're thinking they're going to do it so basically what they're trying to do is they were trying to not look at it on a per parcel basis. They were really trying to look at it as a broad and it makes sense what they're saying she's saying. Anything that was on the two thousand and two open space report of what they wanted to keep open was really supposed to be environmentally related. So therefore if it was environmentally related then it should really be in the tier one to be able to say this is important that we take a look at it before we build something. That makes sense to me but when you look at the parcel on all of the state town those fancy maps that they have out now there's nothing else there that makes it environmental or. You're concerned that this could affect your ability to build that property later on. It would. And so I think what Megan was trying to be able to find out was she said she wasn't involved in the two thousand and two open space piece. So she was kind of looking for if I'm understanding this correct she was looking for guidance from the city council to be able to say why it was there in the first place so they could decide whether or not that should be a factor or if they need to make exceptions to factors or because they're really trying to look at it as an open space and you know and. Yeah no I think in two thousand and two is probably just most of the southeast quadrant was considered that's where the open spaces. Well if you look at the two that the map though that they're using I wish I had the and I don't have enough Wi-Fi in here to do it but if you look at the map. If you looked from like near Nato's do you know really. Yes. Oh yeah so basically right above your house down to pass Leo Nato's and then that strip all the way across to where Heather is all the way down to down to muddy brook. So there's a small portion of that which is in that view quadrant but the rest of it's not it's just they listed it as they would like to keep it open. I mean yeah but. I rather not. We didn't ask for this meeting Megan just emailed so what she emailed me was that she put this on the docket. Because we didn't ask for the meeting she said. She said the council will be yeah requesting this on Monday and I just said just out of curiosity why are we going to the council like why and she said the committee works for the council and on its direction. I think she wanted I'm sorry go ahead. It is also on the committee's agenda for the following night in case the council agrees. Yeah I think maybe she wanted us to say yeah open space committee you should look at this 15-acre piece maybe differently. I don't know. It wasn't clear in the emails. It wasn't for me I don't know if you get anything from the emails she said. Well I thought she was asking us to kind of task the open space committee to look at this specifically. And I'm okay asking them to do that because it sounds like you have some confusion they might also. I don't know what the outcome of that. I can't predict that they will say oh yeah we'll just carve that up and that's you know. Like I said we presented a question. I'm sorry we don't have the answer but you know we're sort of but we certainly can ask that committee to look specifically at that 15 acres to figure out if in fact it should be part of that broader conversation or if in fact it really isn't doesn't rise to I mean it's probably in one of the tiers because it's open space right now. Right and there's slopes and you know absolutely right yeah it just comes down to that tier one kind of stops everything. Well maybe not. I mean that's their recommendation. Right absolutely. It isn't I mean just because they've identified I mean I think the whole point was to have them come up with a grid have some parameters or issues about how you look at land and how you would then say oh this is really valuable land for you know whatever riparian areas or the watershed or whatever it is and we should be very careful with those. I don't think they anticipated I didn't anticipate them coming back and saying oh we should just have no development anywhere. There may be some people on that committee who would like that but I think they had this tiered approach so that it was really to focus on the most vulnerable properties or the most valuable. If I'm understanding how they're doing it it sounds kind of like the Williston the way Williston does it only in reverse so if you have certain amount of points like each thing you do gets a point when you get to a certain point then it reduces what you can build or could build you know again we're not hoping to put up some of it. It's not necessarily a huge deal minus fact that that open space area is exactly where we want to build our future home. What are you building up on the hill? So there's nothing it's just right now it's a like a it's just a trailer we're building so that while we're up there we can be sun wheels yeah so we can kind of move it around when we're up there and have a place to put everything that's currently scattered everywhere. It's a nice clearing of the land it's really really beautiful. And if it ever stops raining we might be able to ask. We might actually be able to brush hog if it ever stops raining. I think it makes sense to ask the committee to they're the ones that have been doing the work they've got more background and certainly than I do and I think they'll see it appropriately logically hopefully. I can ask the staff who will be staffing the committee to take up based upon this conversation at the meeting tomorrow have a discussion about it. Okay I'm sorry you had to come in. At least we're not running really late. I know you guys are going to be out of here at that time. Okay thank you very much. Okay. Council's reports from committee assignments well I already gave you mine for the airport. TDR committee has not been. Okay. I guess open space is easy meeting tomorrow so we can move on to item 12. This is the discussion on the possible approval of a letter to the city of Burlington related to the recent changes in zoning in the southern portion of the city of Burlington some of which borders on the city of south Burlington and we have the letter that Tom and Megan drafted together or somebody drafted it and then there were edits and I guess the question is is the council comfortable with sending this letter I think in some of the conversations and emails and how things were transpiring with the public and interacting with us and then the city of Burlington's actions I think it just to me illustrated an example of something getting not being informed and then acting earlier than after the fact but it sounds as if we still have I think a really important opportunity to be part of their process where they go with how they determine how you can use their DRB process and that we should be making a case because I think there are some issues that are affecting some of our residents in a similar way as it's affecting some of the neighborhoods in Burlington it's not just Queen City Park that is concerned about noise and traffic and then I think the whole issue with red rocks I mean that's kind of a separate I mean it might be aggravated by having lots of large venues of music where there's alcohol consumed I don't think it's lots, isn't it just the higher ground? I mean they changed the zoning ordinance for any... Oh I think no I think most of the there's a whole bunch of beer places and stuff I mean beer producers and they want to have more than just a tasting room they would like to make this and I think that was the whole conversation that Burlington was having in terms of this zoning change this is economic development this is an area in our community that seemed to many people to lend itself to that kind of development but it does impact some of their neighbors hoods and it certainly impacts ours and we just didn't get into the conversation and that's you know that was our responsibility and we didn't just did go to the planning commission but I don't think all is lost I think it's an opportunity for the community to work together that's pretty much what the letter says and indeed you know those concerns are valid and have to be addressed and I was down there the other day and you know you drive across that one lane bridge and then you see where Red Rocks is then you drive into Queen City Park and then you drive into Burton and it's all you know in one tiny little spot and you imagine what happens in a concert gets out and everybody's trying to go across a one lane bridge all at the same time and don't forget when the parkways complete and people come down 189 you're going to go underneath Shelburne Road curve around they get home ab they'll take a left and they'll be they'll be entering a facility from the north and they'll leave if they want to get on the interstate boom they take a right they're back on the parkway they're back on the interstate it's just not I'm not trying to so I enjoy the spirit of the letter right but I think there are probably some projection and accuracies that because we're concerned about things that we don't know are going to happen what might happen but I think that some of these concerns are unfounded but noise is a concern of mine which building is it if you look at Burton you know from the north there's two buildings co-joined and then there's a stand-alone big white building is it that big white building okay that's what I figured so that building is about I think 800 feet from the nearest building it's down central lab approximately or 750 the first house that's on the eastern side of central lab I bet a resident from that area could be very informative at this time yes good timing do you want to move up to the mic and we can just grill you about what you know talking about this letter that we've written yes your resident of Queen City Park so this personally Ken could you're familiar with the proposal for the higher ground in the town Kate Park that'd be installed in one of the Burton buildings which Burton building is it the one that's farthest to the south of the property so it is it's the one facing Queen City Park road that used to be a it was a general dynamics I guess okay for that it was was it ever Haber Tyler or something like that or they were in there but I think they were the next they had the other property okay I remember the tanks driven out of the big the big doors would open up the tank would come out on a flatbed going to the spiring range for testing so it's been industrial for I mean it's an industrial park so what's the distance from that the southern edge of that building to the closest house on central lab roughly I think it's like 600 feet 80 feet entrance to Red Rocks is there yeah that's right okay so you know I would say a thousand feet you know it takes about five minutes to walk there for the to the bus right how many complaints have we had noise for higher ground in its current location do we have any information on that and from noise from the neighbors yeah very few but we have had some there aren't very many neighbors right that's the issue there are very many neighbors right there but how close are they the ones that do that are there how close are they and how much noise do they do they feel vibrations to the ground or you know the door gets open do they hear I'm just I'm just curious yeah quantitatively you know what is that building going to generate based upon how much sound is inside oh my god we're in another sound problem well it's a different it's kind it's a different setting though right it's it's where they are now is a setting that is in a commercial area where you have the house and road noise you have other restaurants and things going on there so it's not like point city parks a little different right right so I would say for there haven't been that many noise complaints from neighbors and the neighbors are generally like alongside and on the other side of housing there are apartments I believe noise can be mitigated in a new facility by retrofitting and when you're renovating planning for that I'd be more concerned about the noise when a concert ends and you got a couple of thousand young people pouring out and I think that's our major concern is the infrastructure there is not made for pedestrians or cars there's no activity there at night now well and then we then we're concerned about the interrelationship with Red Rocks Park and gee on the way out why don't we go jump off the cliffs or something like that I we're faced with the quandary of trying to get some some status and as we have a you know we're a fire district and it's a credential committee that could possibly be some formal relation sources some request isn't a butter but we actually have people in their neighborhood who own property in Burlington a butting across the railroad track so I think a big part of big part of discussion is who will get status in their zoning in their permitting process plus the question about the the highway that's being built versus a traffic study they'll have to do a traffic study that'll be both with or without it but I don't know what that what that means at this point in terms of the issue for us is going to be access at night I agree with David that noise is going to be mitigated by there just they don't let people are going to hear music they're not going to let that out for free so you know that's a good point right yeah but in 1986 I stood outside Memorial auditorium with a sound meter and the amount of Steve Ray Vaughan coming through those brick walls was enormous why did you do that Tim why did I do that 30 something years ago why did you stand outside with a sound meter I was curious what's back to my car took the sound meter inside and approached the guy controlling the sound board and said it's already at a hundred spiking at 105 decibels why and he he used an expert he used an expert of deleted to make me go away but why were you interested then I went out because it was so loud and I went outside to measure the outside it was like 78 outside on the street where they had they cut hair across the street I'm like this is incredible but that was a long time ago never mind you was trying to geeky then too I'm trying to determine what kind of status the city of South Carolina can take in the process of the zoning process zoning or DRB not the zoning but the DRB do we know whether they have a set of uses that the zoning law that they just changed makes the administrative permit and not a DRB permit process believe it's a okay because it affects the entire south end including all the businesses on Pine Street all of the beer places want to have musical events indoors and outdoors and so it's all conditional use in terms of size and noise and indoor so yeah so there's a process and I think this is letting them know we're interested in being part of that process yeah I think so I mean I'm not I'm not jumping up and down about the exact wording necessarily I'm not I'm not excited about and necessarily how all this is worded as Tim just said but lets them know where we want to be engaged and that's all right good starting point what the proposed Champlain Parkway will also present a major obstacle for first responders getting to this remote sleepy corner of your city I mean if the parkways built whoever is responding they're responding from 575 what is this are they 575 as well they're going to get on the interstate and go straight down underneath root 7 and be right there when they take a left on a home ever to go or back on an industrial lab I mean they will get there quicker than they could today because they won't have to go over the little bridge so I mean there are just some things that we can't prove that are in here but I enjoy the spirit of it I support it because it establishes all the things that are potential risks to the quality of life for people in Quincy Park that's worded well you support the spirit of it but we've got some exactly well yes these are friends from Red Rocks condos in Burlington so Almy and Stephanie and they've been part of the Burlington side of the neighbors the neighbors on the Burlington side in terms of their participation in the process and we've been working together on a couple of things well Red Rocks will that condo association have an interested party status in this permit process do you think I don't know that's an interesting question yeah just introduce yourself to the camera I'm Almy Landauer and I live in Red Rocks condos which is in Burlington I don't know the answer to that but supposedly adjoining properties have automatic status but we do have Edland and Rhino Foods in between not Rhino Foods so much but Edland in between our condos and so I'm not sure how strict that is my name is Stephanie Merrick and I'm on the board of the Red Rocks 3B which is the condo association that is about 50 condo units and as a board we did vote to oppose this we have funded the we only put out a flyer and we have paid the expense of that and we will pay future expenses to a certain limit to oppose this any people and speaking I just want to say I liked what the letter had to say your letter but I thought it was well written and comprehensive would answer my questions are there other comments people would like to make we apparently arrived late we thought the theater for Red Rocks or for a higher ground was at 8.30 I know and it's very very unusual but we're ahead of schedule that's a great thing minutes waiting to get to 8.30 or 8.45 did the conversation just begin is there anything that was read prior to this we didn't read the letter out loud would you like to make a comment or are you just really here to listen it's fine you don't have to make a comment my name is Wendy Bratt and I live at Queen City Park I'm at Queen City as well well I'll speak up I didn't know there was opportunity to speak I did speak at the Burlington City Council as did Laura here and we are opposed to higher ground going in to the Burton location primarily due to a very quiet neighborhood potentially becoming much less quiet and much less safe and also Red Rocks is a huge concern for us because of the opportunity it affords for people after a concert to go in and we all know that cliff jumping is an issue so we're strongly opposed and that's all I'll say but I think Lori and Laura might have some things to add I think the biggest issue for me is that we just don't know what's going to happen and there hasn't been enough discussion about what exactly is going to happen and if you know our neighborhood is kind of quirky it's got roads that are narrow and people drive too fast as neighbors we know that and we accommodate each other but I've seen after events the kind of patterns that come down to the beach when the Red Rocks is closed and the police are called often so already there's some issues and we face those issues all the time and often we don't have anything to do with them they're just going to go and the police take care of them or don't but this is a whole new world and I was thinking about that the other day that one lane bridge is our only those are two ways out but that is the only way out for us so if a fire truck or an ambulance needs to come in and there was a lot of traffic I don't know how they do that they could probably maneuver but I'm not sure how that would happen and for us it's about we have great quality of life we all kind of take care of each other and the fear for me is once that's gone it's gone and so because we just don't know how big this growth is going to be or how many people are going to be at these venues I'm not opposed to the concept I think there's some great ideas about vitality but nobody has asked us who live there and who understand what it's like to live there what the impact will be so that's my concern possibly that was our issue that we didn't jump on it quicker but so that's my big concern is that things have moved forward without really understanding how it's going to impact people who live there there are 80 homes at Queen City Art 80 Has Burton offered to meet with the Davis yet? Did once right? Yes they did in terms of the beginning and kind of outlining the plan but not in terms of kind of disgusting what is going to happen with our road it's going to happen one lane bridge how are they going to deal with noise light pollution whatever I've talked to them but they seem to be very clear that they're moving forward so So my concern is with traffic studies I would hope that the ERB can go technical and enforce the traffic study that they force the developer to pay for them we see that often on the ERB so we get a third party to do the traffic study that you know is there's no bias you know there shouldn't be anyway but that's not a interesting process to see what happens there If you would add technical review on noise that would be good too because we have to think it's real the issue of noise is going to be if not from traffic and from the doors opening when when Lowe's went in our neighborhood actually had status in the actual 50 hearing and noise was a big concern and there was technical review and there was a noise we did a number of things and it's the reason the potash broke actually the channel for noise and so you know barriers and so basically Lowe's ended up with a big barrier a noise barrier you know that's certainly something that well there you go Lowe might be right that's what this will suggest a technical study might be if you were to indicate those technical and you have the background on the DRP those technical aspects in the letter to suggest that's what we would look for our Prudential Committee probably echo that in sort of a municipal way so I guess in terms of the timing of this letter and their whole process you don't have a time frame when this is coming before their DRB so if we wanted to make this letter include those technical studies which I think makes sense if it's coming from the city council it probably ought to be more than some of the you know emotional perhaps unsubstantiated assumptions but really make it a much more logical letter to say these are the issues that are important to the South Burlington city and the council and this neighborhood and here are some you know we want to be part of that conditional use discussion and potentially would really request that several studies be done that really I mean I certainly would help the neighborhoods in Burlington as well that could either appease some of your concerns or make them even greater I don't know it depends what comes out of it and what they propose to do would be the best way to approach this not Seve? One of the being a conditional permit I'd like to see it conditioned but on the right now the higher ground has 8 to 10 concerts a week and they usually get out at 11 o'clock at night some of them obviously others are held during the day but you know times and numbers of concerts those could be conditions that you could request Right, but I think that would have to come out of some technical information and not just this council saying we think a good noise time is 10.30 based on well that's what we have here so I So is the next step in the process the DRV? I think so The next step in the process is really discussion presumably between higher ground and Burton about the use coming to terms on the rent coming to terms with FIDUP who's covering those costs for the landlord in the parking lot those sorts of things and then they would file an application with the development review board at some point once those things are worked out and we don't have any involvement in that discussion right? I don't think the city would or the neighbors would it's a business discussion between the tenant and the landlord but once it becomes public it becomes public permitting process I think that's where you're going to have maximum impact because the conditional use means that it's not an allowed use it's a conditional use and they have to meet certain obligations to the city of Burlington and to the abutters who get party status I guess so that's when you can actually have impact on these questions That is very well explained so I think for a second I'm not saying is it a good idea, bad idea I think Burton and their market is somewhat matched to what higher ground wants to attract and so probably if it can be made to work amenably then it's probably a decent idea economically having said that when we talk about noise abatement and traffic studies and all that I guess beyond that I think somehow and I may have expressed this to somebody before the concern that okay concert let's out at 11 o'clock at night it was a loud concert people were a lot of, I presume they're going to serve they serve beer? and so everybody get once it's a summer night or something like that get out in the parking lot let's not stay here, you know there's this red rock park let's go park there not summer night, why don't we go swim and we know there's a beach down there and so those are some of the concerns that I'm not sure how they get addressed quite honestly those are my greatest concerns I feel reasonably confident that with the Champlain Parkway coming to pass and Tim brings up a very good point about emergency access probably enhanced not inhibited and noise mitigation through construction I feel reasonably confident a lot of those things can be addressed it's this other stuff that really, you know I was a kid once and did things like this we all did yeah exactly and so those are the and how that gets addressed I don't know but I think that's something you need to look for when it gets to that point that those points have to be discussed I think those would be the greatest concerns well I think that one of the biggest things that we need to look at in reflecting on what you said is enforcement law enforcement it's all part of it, sure yeah but who's going to respond whose cost is that is it South Burlington because once they get into Red Rocks Park and once they're down in our neighborhood raising all sorts of cane then it becomes South Burlington's responsibility well part of the conditional use could be I think they use Green Mountain Security or something like that a security guard that they pay for has to be posted at the entrance to Red Rocks at the end of the concert for an hour and a half or whatever I mean that could be part of the condition during the war months so is it all open in terms of the condition so like we could say we would like to have that street somehow unavailable to folks coming yes into Red Rocks Park is that a possibility that we could do something like that I think you can ask for anything like that you can probably ask for anything but it seems to me that the city has the obligation to really press for that because it should be on South Burlington's police to be showing up Burlington and their and higher grounds bouncers are not going to be over there grabbing kids out of Red Rocks Park as they're heading down toward the beach Burlington will be there watching the parking lot closely oh yeah well the South Burlington police watches that parking lot are very close they've made several contacts with people coming out right there were 119 police incidents last year at higher ground some of those though are directed patrols they're not what you would think that they were which were the police get called a directed patrol is when the sergeant on duty to say the concert at higher ground swing by a couple times tonight and so each one of those swing buys counts as a directed patrol so we don't know there's anything going on there that's of a concern it's just a directed patrol so a big concern for us is that there's a lot of activity that happens in Queen City Park and the beach and the park itself that no one ever reports because it's a drag to call the police on your neighbors or it's just a drag anyway you don't want to call the police so that happens all the time and when you do call the police they respond so this already happens a lot and so my concern is that so it happens more the police are going to get really burned out being called for nuisance stuff like that's a real issue so I like your idea of quality of life it totally well I think it's totally right so the idea of having somebody who is kind of blocking that or something but that's the stuff that I don't think many people understand because you don't live there you know how well and that's I think our point is that has to be conveyed in the process and the venue to convey those very real issues and asking for a solution or offering perhaps what you think would be a reasonable solution is very important how do we do that? are you talking about that being through a letter that South Burlington City Council writes including this third party no I think for maximum effectiveness we would have a letter that would lay out all the concerns for the city and we would be there our attorneys would be there to deliver that during the DRV proceedings okay but you folks should express your opinions as well and the only way I said a few minutes ago I don't know if this can work or not but the only way it's going to work is if all these concerns are answered and answered responsibly and you know and see what happens what's the nearest Burlington Beach to Burton? that's not far either is it? I would expect there's the same concern in Burlington you know what's going to keep kids going to South Burlington versus Burlington so I think you're going to see you've got similar concerns so you all have a very significant role to play in ensuring that if something goes forward it goes forward with all the T's crossed so it doesn't get screwed up so we weren't here when you read a letter or whatever the letter was it's online so is the City Council a position? I know Mr. Doran I don't think you are close to it this isn't working my only point was if it's not beautiful we are aware that higher ground has been talking to Burton it's been going out I mean they've had the discussions for a while whether or not they'll reach an agreement on lease of the venue you might recall the year and a half ago they were in the same discussions with the City of Wenuski they were going to go in on the corner there and that broke apart that broke down and they abandoned that someplace pretty far into the process of the negotiations and the business deal we don't know yet whether higher ground or some other promoter will reach an agreement with Burton from what the newspapers say they're having those conversations but I think once they are at a comfort level in their business agreement they will file before signing any lease they'll file for the permits and it's at that point that the City if the City Council chooses to engage in that as a butter can appear and others who can get that status can appear as well so but as the City Council do you have a direction we're kind of lost because we're South Burlington folks who nobody's going to hear Burlington folks are not going to listen to us justifiably so I just wonder what are you going to do is there an effort to confront it or is it let's watch and see which I understand could be reasonable because we just kind of don't know what our options are in terms of well I think I can only speak for myself but I think there's pretty broad consensus on the Council that there are some issues involved with this that we need to communicate to Burlington in this process so I personally think we work on a letter that's a little more what you said before a little more focused and not emotional or assuming things that we don't but really factual and there's five or six issues and we state them and these are concerns that we would anticipate or wish to be responded to in the conditional use permitting processes that you use with whatever the venues are and I think we can ask we want to be part of that conversation before the DRB to state our case I mean so I think there's consensus I know Tom and Megan who wrote this and are concerned I certainly am I think Tim has expressed some concerns as David so I think that's the process I'm not sure this letter is the right vehicle to convey that so I think we have a little bit of time but I think that is of importance the DRB meeting it's a public meeting of that body we will receive notice as in a butter other butters will receive notice as well it will also be it has to be warned by the city of Burlington in a normal way that they warn their meetings and so you're going to be able to follow the DRB agendas as they come I imagine something that has gotten this much attention would also probably be updated in the newspaper yeah I think front porch forum people who are following along will let their neighbors know that the meeting is Tuesday night at 7 you're all on front porch forum Queen's City Park they suppose right we are the same you're the same one oh I'm sorry I can't remember your name Almy I'm giving up I wanted to let you guys know that we have a list from the south Burlington police of what the calls were and yes a lot of them were those but to me that indicates that they know that there are concerns there there's also many of them that are actual incidents of violence and crimes and hit and run leaving the scene of an accident sexual things so so it's not we can't just sweep that under the rug the other thing is that one of the so the red rocks we're in a room of about 10 people who have been meeting and have been trying to work on this issue and we share all the same concerns about safety and noise and late night alcohol field activity and we also know that the Burlington police are very occupied with our downtown after 9 p.m. at night and that concerns us because that's where you know when you read in the paper some violent crime happened in Burlington 9 times out of 10 it's downtown after the bars close and so that's where the police are so we're concerned are they really going to have enough coverage to be adequate at a new location like this the traffic issue some of the concerts start as early as 6 o'clock so it's going to conjoin with rush hour traffic in that little neighborhood so that was another point and then as far as Helen what you were saying about addressing the technical concerns and sort of the more legalistic things Joan Shannon who is one of the south representatives and I have been quite frequent communication about this and she was the only city council member who was really willing to speak up about these concerns at their meetings our other south and representative Chip Mason is recused because he has close ties with both Burton and higher ground he's an attorney so we are lacking some representation on the city council because of that so anyway so Joan has let me know that when you do work on speaking in front of a development review board that is really important to address the specific things that a DRB can address and one of those big things is that in Burlington we have a fully vetted and accepted and voted on by the city planning tool called plan BTV which I'm sure you're probably familiar with and there's a section of that called plan BTV south end and it specifically disallows performing art centers and that was the zoning that they changed through this process so far but they did that without any public meetings other than their council meetings they didn't go through a public vetting process saying hey we want to change our plan that we have and so from our perspective they're doing something that's really not a transparent and correct process as far as the planning process for the city and I think that's a really important thing to bring up with the review board as well thank you other comments redrafting something that I think actually would be more helpful because once you identify these are the issues and this is what we think might be solutions or request certain actions I think then a body can respond to that versus you know it's a view of a quiet neighborhood that don't want to change and I appreciate that sentiment and support that but that's very hard for DRB to respond to there isn't a land use regulation that says oh yeah okay this is what we can do our plan BTV South and does talk about preserving the quality of the community I don't remember the exact words but that sentiment is in our plan well and that's very important for Burlington residents to bring up I think it would be weird frankly for the South Burlington lawyer to get in the middle of well this is what your plan says and you're not adhering to your own principles I just don't think we can do that that's really overstepping our but you can't but all of us can look at in the additional uses that are allowed in the enterprise like manufacturing zone and try to speak directly to those okay well I appreciate you coming I hope we've satisfied you somewhat in terms of you know understanding that we plan to be more specific and pointed in both the letter and our engagement when the time is right on this issue we also very much share your concerns and if you want more detail in terms of making your letter more alive I think we can help you with that okay will we have access to that letter when we write it we can share when the council season will become a public when the Burlington City Council receives we will rewrite this then this council in an open meeting will review it and talk with our council and our administrators about how this might work out would be welcome to both listen and comment maybe even add things do you have a sense that this is like a month off or a couple weeks off are we just going to have to keep watching the agenda to see when this comes up the letter well I think the council needs to decide if and perhaps you should have a discussion sounds like you kind of want to have kind of a upfront declaration of concern that goes to the perhaps the city council of Burlington perhaps also to the DRB and the mayor and then something more specific if and when this ever happens that you then have a more technical document written by lawyers that lays out the concerns based upon what we're hearing on noise traffic other things that would be in lawyer ease how soon are we going to redraft the letter we haven't decided who is redrafting the letter yet so I think isn't that what you're they wanted sort of a deadline so I mean I think can the three of us agree that that would be a good process yes I I think that's a good process I don't know if I can put a timeline on it it's okay and we're missing it will not make it a secret okay and you've been in communication with all of us so we can respond with that you can certainly email in a couple of weeks and say what's up with the letter that's a great idea absolutely one more comment mostly to the folks in the audience but Chip Mason also informed me he's one of the thrown to counselors that we can write to the review board even before they meet and it becomes part of the public record of this issue so feel free to write directly to them as well because the city council at this point is sort of out of it we have been you don't have to do it thank you thank you very much it is so do we have any other business hang on oh I have one paper go ahead first screen and you and Trader Joe's still has a few apostles I mean some will repair but there are still some and they're aggravated everywhere else is pretty good I think what do we know when Pavy's going to start the of July Carol came out beautiful looks great and that section is swift the Eastwoods neighborhood Procter is nice and they've already turned the pump we didn't have a ribbon cutting we should do a ribbon cutting which one I want to be there the bell you don't want to turn it the wrong way because we'll get charged for that we will have something announced within the next week or so when we'll do that that would be fun what are you talking about the whole sewer we're taking our own sewage and we're not getting charged and I'm in a lake by Burlington sorry I'm still on concrete and potholes I just want to do another shout out to Leo who is Tom's uncle but my neighbor and he's a wonderful guy and at the corner of Van Sickland and Heinsberg Road the grass is really high so it's very hard to make a left or a right turn and since that's room 116 I usually call and Justin and he calls the state and when they see fit they come by and mow it but my husband was all set to take our mower well because he comes up and he's a biker and you can't see but Leo has a very large mower and he did it and so he often does things like that and it's really he was a former police chief in Essex and a great police chief so safety has been part of his life for a long time but it's always nice to have someone in the public who takes that initiative rather than just moaning groan about the state or the city not doing x, y and z I think that should show up in the minutes that statement okay what about the I noticed on Farrell today that bright Irish green paint the Kelly Green and that's to designate what? but what happens I mean there's white and there's bike lanes and there's bikes and there's dots and there's green Wilson Road had that when they redid it two years ago how long has the damn stuff got we gonna have to do that every single spring the winter wear is so bad on all of this stuff I know what's the alternative I don't know I'm just asking I mean I turn right off of Wilson Road onto Dorset Street the other day there's no lines at all anymore I mean they're getting to it it's tough I know I was just asking I'm hoping maybe the paint the quality of the paints improved they now make for example a paint that you can now use over pressure treated lumber that has longevity versus what they're used to every year there's something better and better and better hopefully that's happening I'm not complaining I'm just saying crap we put all this beautiful paint down and then the winter mucks it all up again I know well I mean that's the thought has crossed my mind that you have to redo the road well you say put dye in the pavement concrete they indeed do put the dye in and so you get the colored concrete that stays I don't think they figured out that for black unfortunately my concern is that there's now so much stuff on the roads that it's become a distraction to drivers we're trying to figure out what this is what that is and you're not watching traffic or pedestrians a couple of the police absolutely agree with it valid point okay, motion to adjourn all in favor this is the earliest in months 22 minutes before 9 is the record damn near for this current current year definitely this is a record my computer my iPad is not accessing the internet in here okay outside I get in here and put my password in it I guess I got a hold of Al again I thought it was okay it's not anyway, anything to go well, the tiling story, the electrician is going to come Wednesday and actually put power back on our bedroom