 Brian Beerson, Chief Superior, Judge, testifying on S169. And unless the committee had other areas of the bill, I would focus on this section. I believe it starts on bottom of page four, as the draft I have as passed by the Senate. Is that what you're looking at? And at section five talks about an amendment to title 13, section 4062, reporting requirements. And it talks or it speaks to a company of a report due by the court administrator with the assistance of the Agency of Human Services. I filed a memo with the committee last week. And although it's not a big objection, because of the differing nature of the information, my suggestion was that the court would report to the committees on the data we collect and allow the agency to report. Because there's no in-between. It's really two different areas of information that the bill looks for. So for instance, on top of page five, B12 and 3 are really court data. The number of extreme risk protection orders filed in the number of orders issued was number one. Number two, the geographical data indicating the county where the petition was filed. We already gathered that information. Actually, I think we already reported them in our annual statistics to the legislature. So three is a little bit different. It says follow-up information describing whether the order was renewed or terminated. Again, that's data that we would have within our system and could provide that. The last item called for in paragraph three is whether the subject of the order was charged with violating it under a different section. I think we can gather that data on cold by our data people. That's a little more complicated because it probably involves some manual connection between the original order and the violation of the order because it's really in two different dockets. One would be in the civil family division. One would be in the criminal division. But I'm told that it's certainly possible to do some effort. I do not see any significant fiscal impact to collecting this data for the most part. Unlike some other situations, I can say that with some assurance I've cleared it for everyone that... And what were you saying? In other words... There wouldn't be an extra cost. You can have some of this. We're pretty much collecting all of this data anyway. Maybe providing it in a different format than we are now. But the data is there or can be obtained without any fiscal impact. The next section, Section C, is information from the Agency of Human Services. And the part of the information asked over there is certainly nothing that we would have in our database. And to me, it just lends itself to two separate reports. One from us on items B1 through 3 and C would be a separate report from the agency. Are there any instances where... I've seen with the assistance side, I've seen that before. Are there instances where you might have your data and your report and then just another agency gives it to you and you report it? Because I think that's what this is, isn't it? Yeah, and as I said, we don't have a real strong objection to it, it just struck me that in this case, unlike some other situations where there is some intermingling of the same kind of data, then it does make sense. But I think what you would end up with is a report probably from the Court Administrator. Here's our data from 1 through 3 and then here's the information we received from the agency. So that's the way the committee refers to see it. There is no real objection to it. The rest of the bill really is not something that we would essentially policy and we would not offer a position on that forward. I'm certainly available for any questions, if anybody has. I'll do upstairs. Okay. Thank you for taking me first. Yeah, you bet. Thank you. Thank you. Sure. I'm the Senior Policy Advisor for the Department of Mental Health. And I did send forward some slides. It's posted on the combination right here. Before I began, it's my understanding. You're looking for a brief overview on what AHS and I'm here because I'm the co-chair of the AHS Suicide Prevention Committee as well as the lead for the Department of Mental Health on Suicide Prevention. So I'm speaking on behalf of AHS in that regard. So my goal today is let you know what we know and what we're doing about it. Perfect. And so I think most of you probably have heard this year there's been a lot of testimony on the rate of suicides going up nationally and how the rate in Vermont is significantly higher. And so we are certainly following that state and we're digging into trying to get more specific on where our target populations where the problems and where can we make the biggest impact. And so as you'll see here nationally, it's the 10th leading cause of death suicide in the nation and Vermont, it's the eighth leading cause of death. And it's been growing significantly since 2008 and currently we're 30% higher than the national average. We do see a much higher rate of suicide in our male population. Interestingly, that is not necessarily equitable for suicide attempts. Attempts for females are higher. Suicide deaths for males are higher due to lethal means used. So men are more likely to use firearms, therefore there's more lethality with that. But they are less likely to attempt overall. And you'll see we have a significantly higher issue with males as they age. So our age is between 45 and 75. Either male or female. I never heard of the stat that females had more attempts but so that's new to me which is not a bad thing to get real information. So what's the reasonings? I know it's not one answer and this is the answer. There's a few reasons. So for instance women are more likely to seek help and be diagnosed with depression which means that they told somebody that they're having a difficult time and they sought support. And so if you're somebody who's truly seeking support you may choose a means, that's more of a private help sometimes we use that term but a way to show people that you need help. If that's what your intention is then you may be more likely to choose something that isn't fail but shows your intent and goes just shy of actually completing a suicide. There's a lot of other theories about that. I could get into some of them, some of them have to do with whether or not we do have a high use of substances that are accompanying with attempts so people who have used a substance in the moment are more likely to use a lethal means and we have some correlation to that but really it may have to do with a lot of the times it has to do with access to lethal means so if you're somebody who has access to something that is lethal in the moment you may be more likely to complete suicide. I know what I want to say, but I don't know how I want to say it. I guess for me anyway it still doesn't say why people are doing it. I mean over the last two plus years I've done a lot of studying and mainly around middle-aged men, imagine that with hormones with middle-aged men and if you look at the rates for middle-aged men it continually goes up and it is very well known and documented that as men get older their testosterone goes down which causes depression. So I don't know if your department has looked at any of that as being one of the problems as far as lower testosterone in men causing a depression which depression is going to cause more suicides and I know a lot of people whether male or female they get treated with SSIs but their systems don't have an SSI shortage. I mean you're bringing up a lot of interesting points. I can tell you the facts that as we know them we do have data that shows that there's an increase in sadness and hopelessness across the population as a whole. Some pockets more than others. We're seeing it more in our adolescence, more in people of color, more in our LGBTQ population. So we have this growing malaise. We know that a sense of sadness, hopelessness and a loss of purpose and meaning in your life is one of the major factors in suicide. So there's that population and then there's the life crisis. Someone who's hit a point in their life, financial, legal, men in our culture sometimes bear the brunt of that especially at this age group so that can be a factor. So you've got someone who's facing a life issue that they can't see themselves and their way out of. So those are sort of two separate groups that we take a look at and see in the second group is where we're trying to promote that sense of give it time. These things will pass. But a life crisis sometimes can make somebody make a decision in the moment that could end their life. We also heard this morning that the veterans' suicides are way up, correct? We not hear that on the floor? I can't believe we did. So is that, are they also figured in your calculation, sir? Yes, we have specific data on veterans' suicide. It's not in the slide deck, but I can send it to you. In fact, it's actually in the slide deck, it's just hidden on this one. So I can make sure that Mr. Bailey has that for you all. But it is an issue, it is an increasing issue nationally and in Vermont. Around veterans, I didn't even give it a thought. There's a lot of veterans who are in a war zone and just explosions alone can, I mean, traumatic brain injury isn't what it used to be. In the sense that it's a lot easier to get a traumatic brain injury than people used to think it was. Kind of like the autism thing where there's a whole new scale to it. And I'm going to keep beating the same drum here, but traumatic brain injury can cause a reduction in testosterone. The other pieces that I wanted to let you know, we do look at means. So when I'll give you, in my background, I was a crisis clinician for years, so I met with a lot of the adolescents who were suicidal. So we talk with families about access to lethal means, including what medications do you have in your cabinets, all of that. And so when we're looking at the means for suicide, we do have it's about 55% firearms, 20% suffocation, 18% poisoning, and 7.3% other, which is other types of cell part. And it does increase from 10 to 19-year-olds up to 59% with firearms for that population. And we do know a little bit about those age groups as well. So we use youth risk behavior surveys to get a sense of how our adolescents and young adults are doing in Vermont. And we are seeing an increase in sadness and hopelessness, like I mentioned. 25% of adolescents are reporting feeling sad, hopeless in the last two weeks. We also know that that percentage goes way up for, it goes up almost twice for females and more significantly for people of color and for our LGBT population. Our older adults are less likely to be diagnosed through depression. They are more likely to have a physical health problem if they've died by suicide and more likely to have used a firearm three times as much. And other factors that come into play are legal problems, substance use problems, or recent relationship argument, things like that. So I'm going to get into the what are we doing about it portion here. We do have at the Agency of Human Services a, we have a committee, but we also have a suicide prevention coalition that we support. The Vermont Suicide Prevention Center organizes this for us. They do a lot of work across the state and bring tons of people together. So here's where we have our folks from education. We've got primary care in the room. We've got substance use in the room. We also invite people who can help us understand our target populations better. So how do you approach this with a view through scratch gender identity issues? How do you approach it with someone with a mental illness? And how do you talk to the older Vermonters? So this coalition meets quarterly, and we're working to address these issues on from a multi-prong approach. And then as I said before, I'm the co-chair of the AHS Suicide Prevention Leadership Group. I co-chair that with Tracy Dolan, who's the Deputy Commissioner at the Department of Health. And I point that out because as the Department of Mental Health, it makes sense that I'm the one speaking about suicide prevention, but actually of the deaths in Vermont, nearly 30% have been seen by mental health practitioners. So the majority are not coming in through the doors asking for help while being treated for depression or other mental illness. So we've really been reaching out to see where are they going? Does anybody know? Are they speaking to other providers? And so we've brought together all of the departments within AHS to talk about that and figure out how to approach this. So our goals for this year are to do the Act 34 Legislative Report, which is where we bring back to you all what we know and what do we recommend. And so in January we'll be coming back with that report. It will be the third year. We also are implementing Zero Suicide. And that is a public health approach. It's a framework for how to deal with suicide prevention in a state, and it's got lots of facets to it. Yes. Tell me about the third year with the report, you said? Yes. So we've done two so far. What new programs and preventions have been put in place the last two years? Last. Since our rates have been going up, so it was about eight. Yep. So some things that have been done, we've got three pilot regions in the state that are trying out a more intensive approach to zero suicide, where we're training staff on how to do collaborative assessment and management of suicidality. So if you think about it, we want to make sure everybody knows and is aware that this is a problem, right? And so we go to schools and we train them. And I'll show you actually coming up. Yeah, actually if you want to go through your slides or just a therapy. Yeah. I'll do that and then I'll get to your point. Okay. And the other big piece to know is we have, there's a lot of data, right? That's really hard to manage. And so AHS is directing the data surveillance group to collect this data from the various places to come together to get a full picture of what's going on. And so we do that through the National of Life and Death Reporting System. And that's where we can know, we've got the chief medical examiner who will let us know if there's a suicide and then we collect data on that. And again, I mentioned we also got the risk behavior survey and hospital discharge data and some other pieces to complete that puzzle. We are looking to continue the funding for the NBDRS is something we've been working on and it looks like that is going to happen so we should be able to continue to get good data on this issue. But coming back to the Zero Suicide Framework in Vermont, there's multiple facets and basically what we're saying to everybody is there's a place for you in this continuum and the work that you do, where do you best fit? So at AHS, we've got leadership buy-in. We want to know what are the goals, what are going to be the recommendations back to the legislature, what are the big picture pieces that we're working on. But then we've got our workforce. So we're working on training everyone from what we call gatekeeper trainers which are your community members, your teachers, people who interact with others but aren't mental health professionals to have, how would you know if somebody might need a referral to a professional? So we're on that level and then the next level up is say you do make that referral. Maybe they go to their PCP first. Maybe you just get them in that door. How do they know which questions to ask? And then the next level up would be if you get to your mental health practitioner. How are they trained specifically in addressing suicideality which is different than training depression. There's other skills that are involved and so then from there we might need to go inpatient to really try to manage these issues on the community level. We find that that's where they may be best served unless it's really an imminent issue. So what we've done, DMH invests, we give 191,000 in our in-year-lead grants contract to Center for Health and Learning and they've done a lot of the work with schools. They do the trainings with our counseling and staff in our community mental health agencies. They're also now reaching out to their providers so they're getting trainings for some of our blueprint and people who are in the healthcare industry to get them aware and figure out how they can be part of this as well. So that's where the both of them money is going. Department of Health also invests in the UMatter trainings in schools and then blueprint starting to get on board to have them come in and at least start the process of getting them up to speed. This is basically what we've done in 2018. So we have 1,971 people trained in some capacity over 2018 and I'll point out when I talk about the ground level, mental health first aid at the ground level, I don't know, many of you have heard about mental health first aid, it's pretty fantastic. It's for anybody. So basically can we talk about what are these diagnoses when you hear about them, what is depression, what is bipolar, and then how would you know if your neighbor, your coworker, what are signs and what are the researches in your community. So it's a basic ground level approach. And then UMatters in the schools and then we have CAMHS. CAMHS was the one I was talking about where that's where if you do have a lovelin and you get them where you think they need to go, how can you be sure that the person they're talking with knows what to do about it. I've been working to get evidence based practices for suicidality with our providers and that's what CAMHS is. CAMHS is the collaborative assessment management of suicidality. And I have a slide on outcomes with it and it's been really, really effective. So the next step for us is we've been piloting that in three regions and we're looking to expand. And then the other is calm and that's counseling on access to legal means and that's where we're helping providers just have a reasonable rational discussion with whomever's going through difficult time. What do they want to do about their access to legal means in that moment? Should they have a feeling member who's holding their weapons? Should somebody hold on to their medications? Those are conversations that they can have within their own, you know, rights and wants and wishes to figure out how to keep them safe during a period of time when they're having a crisis. And so this is a two hour free online training about how to have that kind of discussion. This is just to let us know what you matter is it's a naturally best practice and it's going very well in our schools. At some point you could bring to education or talk about that. But we do have some great results on it where from our surveys of people who've gone through it they really do feel we do it for youth and for the school providers and school personnel and both feel that they now there's a lot of nervousness, right? Like we're telling everybody you should ask about this. This is the problem but what if somebody actually walks up to you and you're a science teacher and they tell you that you know they're feeling suicidal. We're finding that if they go through the you matter training they at least know the first three things to do. You know they can get them to the next place they need to go. And for youth it's been a real benefit as well. And then CAMHS is the other thing we've done and these are the outcomes for CAMHS for our providers. Where they're finding that they are much more confident in treating suicidal patients than they did before. And then the last piece would just be letting people know about their resources. There is a Vermont crisis text line. This got at a population that we think we were not necessarily serving before. As many of you know sometimes it's easier to say things over text and it is to have a real conversation especially for some generations. And so we are getting huge hits on our text line over the past year. You can see it's gone up and up and up. And we do have you look at the majority of our texting for relationship issues but 28% are reporting issues with suicide when they text that line. Excuse me can you ask a question about that last chart? Active rescues can you tell us what that is? Those are the number of people who we needed to dispatch someone to be in person with them to assess them for care. Most of the time when somebody texts it ends up being nothing that someone needed to respond to. 911 wasn't called police or not responding. Crisis wasn't responding. It's just a conversation. So active rescue means that they had to send someone out to the home for a wellness check which usually is police on occasion it might be crisis if they know the person. But that would be something that had to be done in person. And the last is just we've got some feedback about how suicide implementation is going and this was to help show that where we're doing, where we do have zero suicide in the three pilot regions it's going very well. We're getting a lot of really positive feedback about it and so we are hoping to expand that. And then we've got our resources in Vermont which I do want to highlight there are specific resources for veterans and for LGBTQ population who both have reported that sometimes it's easier to speak with somebody who knows their culture and where they might be coming from. I had one on some of the graphs you had earlier specifically the one on page three just understanding what the numbers mean are these percentages of successful suicides or percentages of suicide attempts Suicide deaths This one, I'm talking about the one below this page three This one? Yes, these are suicide deaths Okay, so So attempts would be what the data we have is there could be 25 attempts up to one death. So every time you see a suicide death you can assume that the numbers in Vermont were 25 times that for attempts. So this graph is showing only those who died by suicide Oh, and either percentages of or these numbers These are on rates per population by rates of suicide. Per what, 100,000? Yes, per 100,000. Okay, so it's 39.1 successful suicides per 100,000 65 plus or more. I think that's it. So is it fair to say that we're doing a lot more training to prevent suicides. There's a lot more knowledge, there's a lot more help out there that's available to people that they're not taking advantage so the suicide rate is still very high in Vermont. I think it's fair to say we're doing a lot more to help and there's people we're not reaching yet. And any idea what the magic potion is for? You know my magic potion would be that everybody check in on one another. I think it was before there was this assumption that if somebody died by suicide there must have been this longstanding mental illness that the person just decided not to get help for. What we're finding is there are times where someone might struggle to a mental illness for a long time and not seek help but there are also times, especially with our adolescent population and our older male population where our life stressor crisis happens and the person just doesn't feel that they have the resources and doesn't want to bother somebody. There's a few factors in that and so what we're doing next with that is the one place people do seem to go without stigma is their primary care physician. And so allowing them to start asking that question we found that the majority of people who died by suicide did see their primary care for the last 30 days. And so that's a powerful statistic. We don't think that there's a cause to that. It's just that they're more likely, especially because we have an older population dying by suicide, to be seeing their doctor. So maybe somebody who has no stigma attached which unfortunately mental health providers still do. It's still perfectly okay to go to your primary care physician and tell your buddies about it, right? And so trying to get that conversation started in a different venue that might help people also putting mental health providers in those settings so that someone who might be worried about going to see a counselor or a therapist and might have thoughts about what that means for them. If that person just walks into the room after you've seen your doctor and talks to you that might help get the ball rolling. Yeah. So around some of the training and the programs and that type of thing I just scanned through real quick and it's impossible to count how many programs there are. You might know off the top of your head but I just kind of just from what I heard I'm not saying that's what you said from what I heard that I heard you say youth a lot more than you mentioned the older population as far as these programs go. And I think I'm probably on maybe not spot on but I'm on with that that there is more programs for youth and maybe more opportunities to interact with them but then I look at that graph and it goes through my mind the programs are more geared around the youth but the suicides are more around the older population. I'm not suggesting that you take any programs away from the youth but to me that points out there's a lack for the older population and I think in one place that there is is you know if people go to their health care providers which I think is a great thing I've heard, I've had some people say to me, what's the doctor today? Ask me if I'm suicidal. So it is, I don't know if it's working but it is being asked anyway but and I'm I know it's a tough touchy subject but I'm going to go to the blacks and you know they had the young gentlemen's guns locked away so you know this isn't easy for me to say to bring up this stuff because it's such a touchy subject so the parents knew there was probably an issue of some kind since they did have his personal guns locked away and so if to me if the state was geared more toward a little older population and there was more information out there for family members and loved ones would some of these be thwarted that way? One of the reasons why we have so many things geared towards youth is because we have a place to go to get their full attention we have a school and so that becomes a place to go to reach an entire population and so it's easier and it's effective where we don't have one place that all older adults go And in my opinion looking at those numbers youth is underfunded too Yes But can you tell us again what you are doing for the older population? The SASH program has started and unfortunately that's not on here as well but I can give you, we actually have a lot of information about what SASH has started which is a program that the older adult population and they did start home visiting and screening older adults for suicidality Do you have a question that I'm going to bumble because I'm not from the Department of Health and I don't know it off the top of my head and I should but I could give that for you actually sent it your way, I just don't have it in front of me but it is through the Department of Health and it does target seniors and so we're some other things blueprint for instance, blueprint for health which does work with an older adult population but we are looking for one of the questions we have that we're asking ourselves is where is one place that older people go you know I mean for what it's worth since you threw it out there maybe the question could be turned around rather than there being one place but looking where to your point earlier about people looking out for each other and that just happened to a couple weeks ago gone on these 70 mile wheels on meals drive around and we're talking about the most vulnerable, isolated people and you know I know that it's completely a volunteer run program and I don't know what sorts of things we're already piling on top of people who step up to do that really challenging work already but for what it's worth I was just astonished at what important touchstones sometimes these were the only people that those at home, those seniors saw and it's not even necessarily seniors it's people who have been through a distress that stranded them from their regular life and they can't be participating as they used to so that was suggest to me that they're already kind of more vulnerable not to mention isolated, etc. Yes, I completely agree and I think that sometimes that person wants to be reached out to from someone who's not necessarily used to professional people are when I listen to, if you ever get the chance there's this great speaker Kevin Hines and he decided to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge and he survived and he talks about the second he let go of the railing he changed his mind but it was too late so he spent the whole way down trying to figure out how he could land to not die and he shattered his legs but he can walk now and he survived and he talks about his experience that day and he always said if one person had just come up to me and asked are you okay do you need and he made a pact with himself that if one person did he wouldn't do it and we hear that a lot how ambivalent people are in the moments before that I think a lot of people don't realize their own impact that if you just even make eye contact with a cashier at the grocery store that day and ask them how they're doing that could be it that could be the thing and so making eye contact asking someone how they're doing and meaning it we hear that all the time that that would have made a huge difference thank you thank you this isn't the easiest subject in the world to deal with I appreciate it David's here with the Attorney General's office the Attorney General unequivocally supports this bill and supports the waiting period we view it in our office as a especially suicide prevention we view it as a clear public health and public safety issue and this is a bill that addresses vital and important public health and public safety concern I'm sure the committee has heard from just did hear from and will hear more from clinicians and public health experts that can delve more deeply into the statistics than than we can and have more expertise than we do but certainly the headline numbers around suicide by firearm are compelling Vermont has 1.5 times the rate of suicide by firearm is compared to the nation three times as compared to other northeastern states the lethality of firearm use in suicide attempts is enormously higher than suicide attempts without firearms something like according to one study 5% of suicide attempts without firearms will result in death whereas 85% of gun suicide will result in death as was just discussed by the prior witness the anecdotal and data shows that people who are not successful in a suicide attempt are fairly unlikely to attempt it again so that lethality number brings a finality to something that would not necessarily be final without the access to a firearm in states that have waiting period laws I believe it's 51% fewer those states are 51% fewer firearm suicides and 27% lower overall suicide rate than states without those laws so this is there certainly is a strong correlation between waiting period laws and lowering suicide rates in Vermont one interesting piece of data that we've heard from or that I should say was sort of compiled by somebody and pediatric critical care Vermont has lower than average prevalence in terms of the rate of youth reporting severe depressive symptoms, suicidal planning and suicide attempts however there is a higher than average youth suicide death rates when compared to other states which speaks to that lethality issue that Vermont perhaps doesn't have a psychological the population wise has a psychological challenge that is no greater and probably maybe less than we see other places but because of access to firearms there does seem to be a correlation there not causation regarding lethality and suicide attempts so for all those reasons and those we believe are very compelling statistics we do support this bill and support the waiting period and believe it's an important public health and public safety measure to embrace and pass into the law so I know there's a lot of talk about suicide relating to this bill but it'll also inevitably have an impact on crime as well whether it's domestic violence or trading firearms for drugs I was wondering if you could provide any perspective on how it may impact those issues as well the belief is that it will affect both of those issues I should say I I bet there are other people we are less able to find specific data that really points to that reduction with this particular type of statute however it certainly seems from types of cases we prosecute in particular with regards to guns for drugs type of case types of cases those are often cases where people are coming going to a store trading firearms rapidly turning that around as you know in your other job I'm sure you've had experience of those types of cases and that this could put a break on those issues putting out that barrier could put a break on that type of crime with regard to domestic violence again very compelling data with regard to the lethality of having a weapon in the home I believe the homicides in Vermont every year are domestic violence related homicides and a little bit more than half of those are homicides that are firearm homicides murder suicides I think are something like 75% firearm related so anytime you put a break on access to firearms there should be a corresponding reduction in lethality of some of these crimes that we're talking about we do believe from a constitutional standpoint just to bring that forward that there's no question that this is within the state's regulatory power to make public safety judgments about how to keep people safe if there's not impede on either second amendment rights or the Vermont Constitution and so we see no concern there as with the bills that were passed last year Vermont has a compelling interest in protecting public safety and the data here is compelling yeah just real quick the 51% fewer suicides by firearms mistakes which we encourage what was the other figure for all suicides I believe you may be referring to the 27% lower overall suicide rate so is that from a study that you can get us a citation to that I can get you that citation I don't have it right off the tie I have notes that don't have the citation with them but I will get you that citation David I just wanted to know what your opinion is on the John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and the University of California Davis Violent Prevention Research Program that found California's the study from California which is probably the most comprehensive study done around this subject showed that there is no changes in suicides you're talking about a study specifically about a waiting period and background checks also when was that study done just came out December it was published in December or when was the study the date they started as far as the dates they started in 1991 when California implemented the programs so I want to take a look at it before I hazard an answer the data we see are from reputable peer-reviewed journals and I think it's reliable data and as I said compelling data but I want to take a look at that and learn more about that John Campbell, Executive Director of the State's Trades and Sheriffs thank you for having me here today this is Bill actually unfortunately as many of you know my daughter teaches at Parkway Middle School right next to Parkland High School she lost three of her former students in the Parkland Massacre actually just lost another one relative of one of her students the young lady who killed herself this past week so this is a topic that unfortunately just comes up in your face way too often and I can tell you before I go into this again many of you also know that I have background as a Proust Officer down in Florida unfortunately for Florida unfortunately for Vermont it was a situation where down there we often violent crimes and all too often a lot of those were suicides so I have personal experience of what it's like to go to a house where somebody has taken their own life by firearms and by other methods but I can tell you when it's done by a firearm it is one of the saddest moments not just for a responder to the scene to family members when they come in of course you try to prevent them from coming into the scene but it's amazing the feelings that are shown by some of these folks and saying what did they miss what could they have done to prevent this why is their child why is their husband, why is their wife flying in a van full of blood and so the thought of taking one's life and again we're talking specifically about firearms here is a very difficult one I know the data you're going to find data that shows yes maybe their waiting periods can help maybe they couldn't maybe background checks help maybe they don't just as anything else I think you can find data to fit in whatever you want but it really comes down to this in my mind is that you're talking about lives and all too often lives of our young, of our children those precious things that we have and if we as a legislative well you all as a legislative body have the ability to do something to stop it to discourage it even one life you've done something really important and we just can't turn our turn away from the fact that yeah these things happen in life and yes we don't want to infringe on people's rights to have own weapons that is something that this country is since it was first started people had weapons and they're going to continue to have them but that doesn't mean that we can't take steps that we know or we feel that will in fact help and I can't help but to think and actually I feel I can positively say that there are often times where if a person did not have a firearm next to them if they had they probably would not have done what they ultimately did do often times we find a lot of the people victims of suicides we find that they were these are the back of the day heavily intoxicated or on drugs mostly intoxication and it's one of those things where if the gun wasn't there the event would not have happened at least at that time and then people would say well if they didn't do it by gun they could have found another way to do it and you know it's pretty unlikely as far as I'm concerned with these people because again they're in a highly intoxicated state whether it's from and they're depressed or whether there's been a some of the personal issue that happened they have something that's readily available that they know that they can do and it's going to be over like that it's not going to be like okay I've got to wait and take some pills and you know wait go to fall asleep or whatever this is something that's right there just make that that commitment to take that gun in your hand and hold the trigger that's it just like when I forgot who was talking about jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge I often said living in Quichy and unfortunately we've had many suicides down in Quichy Warch I have often said is that how many of the people once they step off they say oh my god what did I just do can't take it back that guy's a lucky guy that he survived but anyway I guess I'm preaching more than I'm testifying you so I'll stop that but I can just tell you that I think anything that you all do as a committee and you all do as a legislature that can help give even just a little bit of time for somebody to think before they act you're doing something so important and you're going to save lives I can't tell you how many but to me there's one person that was one of your sons, your daughters sisters, brothers, parents it doesn't matter once you've adjusted I'll get back to the bill I don't know if this has been discussed before this actually went back to my old hat as a civil attorney and that is providing me the transfer of legal executed will I would unless somebody has said something I probably would have used that testamentary instrument because you can not wills are going away you can do my trust the other agreement so oh I'm sorry that's in the first page under C1A says immediate family members to another immediate family member of my lawfully executed will I guess I would put testamentary instrument testamentary instrument suggested and the only other thing that I think we could from our standpoint we do, the state's attorneys do support the waiting period and whether 24 hours is enough that's obviously a policy decision it was up to me it would be longer but that's just my own personal opinion I can't say that it's something that I have a collective opinion of the state's attorneys okay so thank you so we're going to start with so we do have a hard stop at 330 absolutely just because just give everybody a break before the hearing welcome thank you for the record my name is Jeffrey Wallen I'm the director of the Vermont crime information center with the department of public safety thank you for the opportunity to come in and briefly chat with the committee in each of you today what I want to do hopefully is primarily answer any questions folks have but I begin by just making a brief overview from my perspective of how firearm checks are conducted for individuals purchasing a firearm in Vermont through a licensed dealer I would like to say that the BCIC does not actually conduct these checks these are conducted in Vermont by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and their national instant background check system occasionally we do provide some clarification to them if they have a question or there's an open docket etc we may help them run down some information but we do not do the determinations in our office if someone is eligible to receive a firearm or not those again are handled by the FBI 48 transactions in Vermont essentially how it works is if an individual were to go to a licensed firearm dealer and I'll let you imagine whatever one you want to choose for that you simply go there you select the firearm you'd like to purchase you then complete a questionnaire that has primarily moved to an online process now where they may ask for your ID to verify your identity complete some information online submit that and then within no more than a couple of minutes for most transactions they're going to receive either a proceed that that transaction may move forward they're going to receive a deny that that individual is prohibited from purchasing a firearm at this time or they may be asked to hold that for three days because it's inconclusive and the FBI needs to do additional research on that and that's essentially how the process works it used to be a form you filled out that you either called or faxed it to the FBI now the majority of these are done through an online portal that the FBI has established for federal firearms dealers so let's say it's not an established gun shop but a gun show what would be the difference I'm not aware of how a gun show would be done if those individuals are not running the check through a firearm dealer through the FBI I'm not sure what if any in fact they would be doing thank you I feel like the new things the new personal identification the number which is I understand it and maybe you can correct me if I get it wrong it's folks who have taken the initiative upon themselves I think you have to get law enforcement finger prints you go through some sort of a background check and you then have this number so when you're filling out the 4473 you put in your U-pins and it I believe doesn't have you go through the background check in the same way I've had some back and forth and I can't recall my question to you would be are you familiar with that and are you aware how many people in Vermont have that status currently I'm not familiar with that particular process I'm familiar with that in our office so we're not aware of what if anything goes into that and I couldn't comment on the number of individuals in Vermont that may have signed up for some kind of service like that so the category of if it's put on hold because it's inconclusive is it the FBI that's doing this, ATF who is it that's doing the further examination typically if there's an inconclusive result that means there's some information that isn't definitive that would disqualify an individual so they typically have up to three days to do that and typically it's the FBI that does that the national incident background check system that does that that's when we may actually get involved for example if they see someone was arrested and arranged for a felony but there's no disposition they weren't found guilty not guilty etc etc they may reach out to us to go can you help us run this down and we can connect them with the court of jurisdiction to find out what happens so they can make a determination there we simply act as a conduit for information but they have up to three days to make that determination and what happens after those three days does the FBI still work with you to figure it out eventually and does it just drop that three days or does it continue on until it resolves the question is my understanding that after three days that the dealer may release that firearm to the individual I'm not aware personally if they continue to research it or not we typically provide whatever information we have as quickly as possible we're not made aware if the ultimate if it's ultimately a proceed or a deny or if they're approved or not we simply help them connect the information we're not actually given the results of the check again we're not really party to that so I'm not sure what would happen it took longer than three days to get that or what any potential outcomes if that firearm was transferred it was later found to be ineligible and the three days where does three days come from that's from the federal statute that establishes the national instant background check system which is almost always instant but not in every instance could you just let me know who might be your counterpart at ATF any more about the event I'm not I actually don't have a personal contact at the ATF I can certainly reach out to them and let them know the committee is interested in chatting with them and connect them but I actually don't have a particular counterpart there but I'd be happy to do that Kimberly we're asking for that kind of feeding off a Martin's question what happens at the details actually that was brought to my attention and I'm just trying to fit folks' opinions about it I wonder if the same person may be able to answer Martin's question kind of what happens after the three days or at the three day point which is kind of interesting I can certainly pass that along I'm not sure if the ATF or the FBI I'm not sure who the responsible agency but I can reach I do have a the number of folks at the ATF I can reach out to to find out and they can coordinate that the ATF and the FBI work very closely together on firearms related issues so I'd be happy to reach out to them and see what I can who I can for like one more day I could term wrangle up and maybe I'll answer some of those questions because again we don't do that in our office and I wouldn't want to speak for them but it sounds like after those three days that the three days is when it's complete is that well after the three days the FBI has two days to make a final determination after that the dealer may then release that firearm to the individual even if no determination has been made what's not clear to me is if they later determine on day four and day five it was an ineligible transfer what happens I don't know we're not actually directly involved in that if they put it on hold and then day one or day two they determine oh actually it's fine it's a different Jeffrey Wallen yes you may proceed more if it's denied it is the same Jeffrey Wallen he's got three felony convictions for take your pick I don't have any by the way so just to be clear but we're to have any then it's denied and then it's a deny and you may not release that it's only if it goes three days and they can't make a final determination it becomes a great area so just to be clear I could walk out of here tonight I have to go to a gun dealer and they could have something on me and I couldn't purchase a gun well the gun dealer wouldn't necessarily have anything on you but the FBI would have information available they would have it and they could deny that sale of a gun to me correct interesting actually are you able to talk about the different categories the profiles I think you referenced it earlier but prohibited persons or sure so thank you for that clarifying statement again because we don't do the evaluations in our office however I can speak generally to a couple of things there are a number of categories established at the federal level that would prohibit someone from receiving or purchasing a firearm the most common ones are a conviction of a felony a criminal conviction of a felony but there are also some other ones such as if you're dishonorably discharged from the military and if you voluntarily give up your United States citizenship if you're a known or suspected terrorist you would be denied purchasing a firearm so there are things other categories out there that may exist if you have a what we would consider a protection order or a relief from abuse order that prohibited the individual from purchasing firearms that would be entered and made available as well yeah but pretty much just one more so that's already out there on the computer or something like that that sees all these regulations are already out there and they're posted well the regulations are out there and they're posted however if an individual goes to a firearm dealer the dealer is not making a determination whether or not the gun can be sold or not it goes to the FBI as a criminal justice entity they have access to a lot of data and they would based on a name and date of birth and the other like if you provide a social et cetera and they can with a high degree of confidence say this is or is not the person who has five felony convictions that we know of right here they are denied and that will typically come back very very quickly as a community case or if there's actually no this person has no information at all there's nothing with this person's name or date of birth or other unique identifiers in the system it comes back very quickly as a proceed that you can release that thank you my question is when you reference the do not fly this we know from media reports anyway that there's a certain error rate and people have had various stories about their name resembling folks who are on a do not fly list and my question is what is the presumed error rate of the NICS system I'm not aware of any presumed error rate I'm not sure what a do not fly list is either there is a file the FDA maintains this and known or suspected terrorists and I don't believe that has anything to do with flying or not per se you're wording I'm sure is better than mine in terms of what it's called but for the vernacular and we don't enter individuals on that but it's something that if the FBI or other federal entities are curious about someone's movement and they have again it's a substantiated entry into that that they may be flagged I'm not sure I can't speak to any error rate may or may not be because we're not involved in that piece I do know the vast majority of checks based on information I've received from the FBI and from folks at the NICS section the vast majority of attributions or requests are either approved or denied very very quickly within minutes as well over 90% are approved or denied very very quickly if someone is denied then they receive information from the FBI stating the reason for the denial and where the record came from so for example if someone had a felony conviction in Vermont and that was the reason why they were denied it would say contact the Vermont Crime Information Center as the repository and we can say oh because you have these three felony convictions if they say that's not me then we can work with them to either evaluate that and sometimes remind them of something they did back in the 70's 80's or 90's or 2000's for that matter or if there was and it's very rare but if there was an issue help them get that if okay thank you if I had a dishonorable discharge a felony give up my US citizenship and you named a few other things is it against the law for me to go try and buy a gun that I can't comment on because we as the repository we simply maintain the data that others use for this I would encourage you to talk to your federal or what's up okay that would be a federal and now depending on the conviction it could be a state crime as well because you passed that two years ago but possession or transfer but I mean I don't think the attempt to purchase would be good okay it depends on what you would put in your application because the application has a provision that you have to swear that everything you've said is true and if you haven't you can fraud could potentially have potential that she actually so here's another question I don't know if this is on the form but I remember looking at one and isn't there a question on there about cannabis consumption and what about states where cannabis is legal I believe there is a question that asks individuals to indicate if they're using any federally controlled substances and I believe they did add a writer or a clarification that if you are using cannabis and the state that allows it to be illegal at the federal level and because these are federal laws they do ask about to indicate that so are you the provider of information into the system from our state I mean for convictions and such for criminal events yes for civil events for example if someone is found to be not competent to stand trial or they're committed to their will per se that would be the judiciary excuse me the judiciary that provides that information because it's not criminal in nature but if it's a conviction etc that does come from our office so how quick of a turnaround is it to get somebody on there and to get somebody off well we receive weekly updates from the judiciary as far as updates to convictions etc so as soon as we get the information we'll update that and it's I don't want to say real time but it's minutes from when we get it and we upload it we process it we check it and it's available for that piece if there's a question we do have I do have a staff five days a week eight to five that are available to answer any questions that the FBI might have so if they have a question about something we'll respond within one business day and minimum to provide that information to them we can also if there's a if we get a fax or call from the court hey this person was just convicted of this and the judge wants you to know immediately we can update it immediately and we can update that information immediately doesn't happen very often but occasionally we may get the fax over a disposition sheet and we'll go ahead and manually update that rather than wait for the weekly update the reason I ask is that we have we established the extreme risk protection order correct and that would sounds like that would go through the court but right now I don't know that those are being provided to the mixed system that might be just something we may have to look at unless you know something well the extreme risk protection orders are handled like a protection order they're not a criminal conviction etc so they're handled like a protection order so they're entered into the National Crime Information Center the same way any other protection order would be and within that there's language that's very or permanently is barred while this order is in effect from receiving a firearm it's up to the FBI to see that and act on it and deny that particular action but we do make that available so that does come through VCI it doesn't come through VCI now but I'm just aware of those because they use systems that we manage and maintain but we actually don't see the orders ourselves and what is this I'm sorry what's the system the federal well those are entered into NCIC it is in the background check correct yes it would be in that process they are correct as with any other protection order relief from abuse where they're handled the same way great thank you very much did we cut you off no no no no any other questions I can answer for anybody and I will reach out to my contacts at the ATF about the dependency if I can get some information or someone that can speak to that more because again I don't want them to speak thank you thank you again we have a hard stop at 3.30 my name is Ed Cutler I'm here representing the Gunners of Vermont an organization representing all about 6,800 people right 6,800 members 6,800 members you have paid members how much did you pay how much 6,800 members yeah and how much is 20 dollars a year before I start push the button again push the button again I'm a computer ready to get sorry about this but before I actually start my testimony I would like to play a short video it has something to do with suicide which is what this bill seems to be all about so this wasn't done by us this was done by somebody else it's supposed to be about helping people find their way out of the kind of misery that these deaths seem to bring it's supposed to be about suicide yeah I agree and we're going to talk about those things because suicide in Vermont is a serious issue not to be used by politicians as a device for pushing their favorite agendas and with the primary suicide prevention we are currently under consideration by the Vermont legislature being a waiting period for firearm purchases we are forced yet again to talk about gun control the preponderance of evidence generated by a large amount of research points toward the ineffectiveness of waiting periods for firearm purchases and reducing gun deaths repeated studies have found no measurable statistical effects on gun deaths following the implementation of waiting period laws one study published in 2000 in the Journal of the American Medical Association indicated that these policies may be associated with a small reduction in the rate of gun suicide for those age 55 and older but noted increases in other suicide methods in a possible substitution effect resulting in no reduction in the rate of suicide overall in contrast to the broad body of research one 2017 study often cited by gun control proponents claims that waiting period laws exclusively to handguns caused a 17% reduction in gun homicides and a 7-11% reduction in gun suicides in peer review it has been noted that this study failed to account for relevant variables relied upon statistical comparisons geographically rather than temporarily to determine effect and measured change cumulatively over periods of time rather than looking for the statistical cliff that should be evident with a policy whose full effect would become apparent within the length of the waiting period itself the vast majority of research done on the subject is in agreement that these policies cannot be shown to have caused any decrease in firearm related deaths and a report from the center for disease control found insufficient evidence for any determination that waiting periods measurably impact firearm fatalities noting the inconsistent evidence of effectiveness and limitations in design and execution of available studies but the purpose of the proposal in Vermont is really limited to preventing suicide when we look at the numbers at the national level the greatest correlation with suicide rate is not the extent of gun control laws it's population density the suicide rate in the United States is 14 per 100,000 Vermont's is higher than average at 17.2 but if you controlled for Vermont's demographic makeup and the high proportion of populations at increased risk for suicide it is actually about average but how much could a waiting period decrease Vermont's suicide rate? According to the CDC there were 1,308 suicides in Vermont between 2005 and 2018 during that time the number of reported cases of the method of suicide being a firearm purchased the same day was one Vermont is suffering through a mental health care shortage of crisis proportions Vermonters wait months or years for appointments with mental health care professionals Vermonters in crisis seek care through hospital emergency departments and some have been turned away returned home and killed themselves or others in the absence of mental health care facilities to meet community needs our emergency departments are so overcrowded with mental health patients for whom no other space can be found that people suffering massive internal bleeding from car accidents have waited several life threatening hours for a physician to triage them and old surgeries have been postponed indefinitely there is enormous room for improvement in this area and the legislature has the power to act decisively that the primary suicide prevention effort in a state with woefully inadequate mental health care resources is a misguided gun control law with over $56,000 in lobbyist spending behind it in the first two months of this year alone which under the best of circumstances can only impact 1% of Vermont suicides is immoral inhumane and profane under the circumstances so what can be done the Vermont suicide prevention center has a list of recommendations which include building integrated mental health and suicide prevention infrastructure improving access and coordination of mental health and substance abuse services and development of programs to promote social and emotional wellness and provide training to community members on how to recognize suicide related behaviors and how to intervene all of these are within the power of the legislature but many of them will cost money other recommendations can be implemented quickly and inexpensively these include the gun shop project a cooperative initiative between the Vermont suicide prevention center and the Vermont federation of sportsmen's clubs to educate firearms retailers about the science of a person in crisis it is also recommended that the media discuss about how and how much they report the issue of suicide more than 50 studies have found that certain types of news coverage can increase the likelihood of suicide in vulnerable individuals resulting in suicide contagion or copycat suicides the media recommendations include avoid big and sensational headlines and prominent placement of suicide in the story avoid including photos of the method of death and grieving family and friends avoid describing recent suicides as an epidemic, skyrocketing or other strong terms avoid describing a suicide as inexplicable or without warning avoid quotes or interviews about the causes of suicide with non-experts in suicide prevention but what about us what can we do the most important thing is to educate ourselves about suicide studies show that suicide very rarely occurs without warning one event in a person's life cannot explain the complex causes of suicidal behavior common explanations for suicide are isolation, stressors inability to seek help from loved ones or from mental health professionals and lack of access to mental health services with education about what to look for friends, family and even a person who is or may become in crisis can intervene making suicide preventable and the underlying issues treatable here are some of the warning signs of suicide please go to the Vermont suicide prevention center's website and learn more about suicide as a public health issue and about how to get involved in suicide prevention in Vermont if you or someone you know is displaying any of these warning signs here are some things you can do to get help if you believe there may be an immediate cause for concern because you or someone you know is depressed or having thoughts of self harm call 1-800-273-TALK or text VT to 741-741 take care of yourselves for honors and take care of one another we have actually gone beyond the gunshot project we have taken gatekeepers for a program which taught us that people were suicidal and we have done a number of the programs that have actually saved our lives I hate these things unplug it what are you doing anyway we have actually saved we have actually saved lives through our program it's a beautiful system I personally have saved three lives people that were depressed they came to me they talked to me one person I spent the whole night just sitting there listening to the problem is is these waiting periods would be very detrimental to the programs that we are now doing the background checks really gave us a click but these waiting periods are going to be even worse I've taken in guns from people who were contemplating stuff like that with a waiting period legally I can't do that with the background checks people are not giving them to me because we have to go to a dealer and then there's a record and a lot of people are afraid of that record 20 years down the road being turned over to the police or whatever happens in it it's happened in New York City it's happening in California California they actually have gun police that go around confiscating people's weapons because they're registered so this kind of a system and this bill as far as the waiting periods should be killed just eliminated completely the Rogers amendments we think are a great thing and we think they ought to go through I think there ought to be more added to the Rogers amendments but regardless of what happens with the Rogers amendments the most important thing to do is no waiting periods and no lack of your guns and I know that the committee or some people on the committee are contemplating that I'd also like to answer a couple of questions that were asked from the previous speaker one of the barring facts from purchasing and owning a firearm is if you have a medical marijuana card on the 4473 which is the ATF questionnaire it specifically says if you have a medical marijuana card or you use it you are prohibited from owning a firearm or a second bullet so it's not just felons and many of you on here are attorneys a felon isn't a murderer or mug or a thief it's also a traffic violator so all those felonies are barring people in this state from having firearms now I'm going to give you a list of people who have actually saved people saved their lives and defended themselves right in here in the state of mind and there's a lot more of these people than there are a person purchasing a firearm going out and instantly shooting themselves and these are actually I put an ad up for this Saturday morning I had 50 responses I'm only going to give you a few of them Bill DeCosmo from Brattleboro defended a woman from abusive husband he held his gun didn't shoot it and let the guy know he had a firearm the guy instantly left Luke Martin from Putney someone tried to jack his head his car I think you know where that is he had a handgun no shots fired but he let the guy know he had a handgun the guy took off Joshua Jones had a drawn fired and aggressive dog so this isn't just people this is animals too he fired into the ground and the dog ran off Trini Brassard of Randolph had to buy a firearm to keep an abusive spouse away no shots were fired but once she had that firearm he has never bothered her again Jim O'Nally from Ludlom had to fend off looters during a blackout at his store with a firearm again no shots fired Ross Satcher of Starksboro had to draw a handgun during the rogue rage incident no shots were fired Eric John of Barrittown had to hold a drug driver in his yard with a firearm the drunk driver went after him with a tire he held him off with a firearm Greg DeMars of Winisaki was confronted by a drunk pointed the revolver to the drunk and the drunk ran away again no shots fired I'm not going to go into the rest of these you all have a sheet but understand that 99% of all self-defense situations shots are not fired it's more of a warning this is typical not only in Vermont this is typical of Asian war now to my actual testimony I hate to be the devil's advocate here so all those examples you just gave how would they be affected by this bill the lady who was being molested by her abusive husband went instantly she issued a restraining order she knew he was coming back she went and bought a firearm he knew that she had that firearm the lady was on your list that was here trying to keep all these names in my head who's on the list Trini Brassard and she's from Randolph but she literally had a TRO on the guy and like most TROs it's a piece of paper that doesn't do anything I have a number of instances of stuff like that where women have gone out bought firearms and were never bothered again by their abusive spouses so this is not something that's rare or something that's actually quite normal I want to make sure that the record is clear on this because I don't want you to not be taking other friends firearms away from them if there's a suicide issue or you're some concern you suggested that you could do that anymore but that's not the case I want to make it very clear that the background check does not apply to a person who transfers the firearm to another person to prevent imminent harm to any person so just future take away the handguns the background check doesn't apply in that situation one person helping now I've had his firearms for six months how long is temporary for as long as the threat is in existence if you continue to feel this person is under a threat now I can see that's a transfer by federal statute a transfer I'm required to go to an FFB with him now to return his firearms to transfer him back that's not how the law applies in that situation I'm just saying if you're in that situation again you should not hold off taking some of these firearms because the background check doesn't apply on those kind of transfers you can go ahead I hate to say it but I do hear of things like that happening where people can I know just yesterday somebody was released from the self-defense situation the guy that shot the two guys in the vein now I don't want to have to spend 30, 40, 50 thousand dollars to clear my name if you understand what I'm saying lawyers are expensive believe me I know how expensive they can be so I'm not going to take the chance of somebody coming along and saying you're under arrest we have an attorney general who's making a case out of a minor magazine violation right now the state's attorney in Bennington didn't want to do it he made it his own personal bandetta now here I am cursing the ground he walks on no offense but if he had a chance to go after me don't you think he would and I'm not a paranoid person that's just what the way he seems to be was that federal law the state federal law I command anybody and it's a legal person a final one by federal statute this is for law statute but I'm not going to take the chance on the lock up okay on the lock up the gun part what is in your immediate control if I'm at the range I know you're thinking about it but it's not written yet but if I'm up at the range and I got to go 200 yards down range to put up a new target no club in the world will allow you to walk down range with a firearm you leave them on the bench there's an officer there to watch them and you go down range and change your targets that's no longer my immediate possession so that has nothing to do with the bill that we have okay you're right and if any such amendment comes forward you can comment later today okay if an amendment comes forward I hope you can have me back to speak about it just so just watching the time excuse me again I'm just watching the time as I said we have a hard stop at 3.30 okay well you all have my written testimony too I hope you all read it view this weekend if you can just down the street from here give me an hour and we give you my garden we can talk thank you everybody