 Do we have seren seren's not here. Okay. Do we have Jim? No Do we have Cody? Cody's Logged in but not physically present Okay, and and do we have Ian? Here's Cody Hi Cody Oh, there you are you're unmuted now Okay, well actually is it 1130? Yes, it is we have a quorum. Oh Here's seren so now we have five people. Oh good Okay, so Asa are you empowered to read the statement? Okay, I can't hear him No You have yeah, yeah, yes Yeah Pamela is trying to get in but um, she keeps keeps getting booted out I've been trying to up promote her to panelists, but it hasn't been working. Oh, okay Hmm Pamela I give any permission to talk at least All right, can you all hear me? Yes. Yeah, all right. Hi meeting hi For some reason I am not being allowed to join in as a Panelist but hopefully we'll try to rectify that soon the meeting is being recorded. You do have a quorum Yeah, so You shall be able to start this is one of the awkward days when I am both the DEI director and the Crest Director and so I have double duty going on it. So I'll be with you for the first 30 minutes of this meeting and then I'll step away briefly to get another group going and then I will rejoin you just so that You'll okay, you'll see me step off and in the meantime ace. Do you have the the Language for starting the meeting Okay, then if you'll if you'll go ahead and and get that started and I'll try to work on figuring out why I'm not able to To join you as a Panelist Okay, all right. So Pursuant to the governor's order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law general law chapter 30 a section 18 This meeting the disability access advisory committee is being conducted via remote participation This meeting is going to be recorded and upload uploaded onto the town's YouTube channel So the time is 1134 a.m Chair may you please call the meeting to order Okay, I'm calling the meeting of the disability access advisory committee to order. It's December 12th 2023 and Let's see who's here Sarah and Darren, you're here correct. Yes. Okay, and Elise link here Marty Smith Marty's muted. She's muted. Sorry. I'm muted. There you are And Cody Rooney Okay, great. Okay, and Ian Wrote are you in here? No, no, I don't see Ian. Okay, and Jim Kruneer Don't see Jim. He's not here either. Okay. Well, maybe he's maybe they're having the same trouble that oh, there's Ryan There's Ian. Yeah, okay Okay Okay, and so we're only missing Jim All right, and we have a guest who is Jennifer Mullins and I don't know if we have any other guests who came with you Jennifer Do we? Dave Zomac is here. He's the town manager and the director of conservation and Chris Breistrup is here She's the planning director Okay, so I Let's see I'm just trying to think ahead. We do have another agenda item which has to do with something that I believe was Brought to us by Jim and he's not here so if he comes we'll deal with it so I want to make sure we have time and I guess to the to the presenters I'd like to say that what you did send is a good history document and A bunch of aerial photos and a lot of Very specific information about how you're going to build this and that But there really isn't anything that's descriptive at all about the site and so I know everybody. Did anybody have trouble with the maps? I couldn't read them Yeah, it was small Say that again, please Sarin, what did you say? It's too Tiny and I don't know what direction what they're what we are trying to find in the maps Okay, that was my husband's experience as well. He tried to figure it out So the maps do not orient you toward the streets So it's really hard to tell and I'm I'm feeling like it's unfortunate That we don't have more descriptive information But it's not only me that needs it. So this might take more than one meeting because We don't I mean What I understand about the site is that it's shaped like a saucepan with a handle that goes out toward West Street and at the bottom of it the biggest part of it is on West Pomeroy, but I have no idea where Anything that you're planning is in that site. I don't know where the solar array is in that site I don't know if anyone else does so if it's only me that doesn't I don't want to waste the time But if everybody needs that description, it would be very good to know. I Certainly do Okay, this is Dave Zomek part of our presentation today is to describe the project to the DAAC and orient folks Okay, to the property because it is a very large property. So we We appreciate you having us today and we understand this may be one of two conversations We have about it because it is a big property so we're We're we're fully prepared to To go at whatever pace you all would like and we understand there'll be lots of questions. Okay, take it away Great. Well, again, I'm Dave Zomek. I'm I'm the assistant manager But also the director of conservation and development joined here by Jennifer Mullin Mullins our permanent administrator and Chris Prestrup our Planning director. I do apologize. I know you have another agenda item. I probably have about an hour today I have some minor surgery this afternoon planned I would much rather be with you all afternoon, but I need to go to that So I'll be here as long as I can and then Jennifer and Chris are well-versed on the project So if if I could I may ask Jennifer to show slide three Which was in your packet and I'd be happy to describe the project overall because I think it is important to to understand the context And maybe Jennifer could even make this a little larger, but that's probably there we go Let me let me help and Jennifer has a cursor, but let me let me describe the project In a short narrative. So a few years ago Just one second. Can I ask you to move your cursor more slowly? I'm legally blind. So it I can't focus very fast I'm currently not using my cursor, but when I do I will. Okay. Thank you So the Hickory Ridge site is a former golf course a few years ago the town took steps to purchase the golf course It's a hundred and fifty acres. It's located just north of West Pomeroy Lane in South Amherst Near the new roundabout and the village center where there are a number of stores and shops and restaurants such as Mission Cantina El Comolito Convenience store, etc. As I said, this is an old former golf course the town purchased it with multiple goals in mind One in short it was seen as kind of a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to pick up this much Hickory Ridge in South Amherst and we decided to do that and create a a comprehensive plan for the property we're in the midst of pulling together that comprehensive plan and one of the One of the leading goals of the project and I'll talk about a few other goals in just a moment was to make sure that we use some of the property to Help people who live near it to help visitors to help Neighborhoods to the north and south of the property to connect with nature and connect with this beautiful site So that's the main focus of our discussion today are the trails. However, the town had broader goals in mind So the property as I said is a hundred and fifty acres It is bisected by the Fort River a major tributary of the Connecticut River and the Fort River is an extremely Special river it contains a number of rare and endangered species who call both the river home But also the banks of the river home There are endangered turtles fish and mussels that make their their home on this property So overall we want to make sure that we protect that habitat for those species while at the same time Creating opportunities to invite the public to come enjoy and explore Hickory Ridge, obviously we are not intending to continue with a golf course We already own the Cherry Hall golf course up in North Amherst a nine hole course But the town's goal does not include Golf so we know to the north of this property off of East Hadley Road are a number of neighborhoods and Some rather dense neighborhoods that is the area where? Mill Valley apartments the Brook and the renew apartments are as well as neighborhoods to the north of East Hadley Road Which include areas near Columbia Drive Etc and to the south of the property is the neighborhood we call Orchard Valley So in planning for the acquisition of this property We knew that there were hundreds of thousands of people a few thousand people who live within walking distance within a short distance of Hickory Ridge Another goal of the property that that came really with the with the acquisition was solar development We we are not developing the solar, but we are allowing solar to be developed on the property So of the hundred and fifty acres twenty six acres are solar and so Jennifer is slowly outlining in green Two areas where there will be solar panels There's one area to the west and then there's one right in the central part of the property Which will be solar panels the town will benefit from the solar panels We will be getting what's called a pilot a payment in lieu of taxes for those solar panels They let me locate your right smack in the middle that big area right there is where it is That'll be the other solar. Thank you and those have already been permitted and they're under construction now and into 24 We were able to partner with a solar development who is providing the Solar benefit if you will to the city of Springfield So those solar panels will help Springfield green its portfolio of energy use So they are how we are helping if you will a city that does not have much open space does not have much Green energy potential to meet meet their climate goals and we will get a pilot payment So other goals that were articulated through a public process for Hickory Ridge as I said include Trail and trail connections outdoor Exploration fishing hiking biking running Things like community gardens trails as I've said we're also Charged with looking at the frontage of this property Which is the only frontage we really have is along West Pomeroy Lane and Jennifer can Slowly move her cursor in red along the frontage on Pomeroy Lane We're also charged with looking at what the town's needs are for other things that may be compatible with Hickory Ridge And we've done a pretty extensive public process on that and things that have come up for possible Reuse of Hickory Ridge on the frontage are things like affordable housing potential senior center location in the future a community center site an amphitheater and and more recently the possibility of citing a Fire station a South Amherst fire station along West Pomeroy Lane The property although it's a hundred and fifty acres most of it is highly constrained by environmental Regulation and law so we really of the hundred and fifty acres when you subtract the solar site, which is 26 acres You're left with about five and a half acres of developable land right along West Pomeroy Lane where the former clubhouse and the parking for the golf course all were situated So that's what's kind of left and our comprehensive plan is being developed to Present to the town council and other boards and committees in the spring of 24 Jennifer is circling the clubhouse building and then the parking lot to the right is a very large flat parking lot and so So what we're going to do is we're going to try to create a trail system that Compliments future development on the site And maybe I should pause there for a minute before I talk about the trails Why don't I just pause there for a minute and Myra defer to you if there are questions from the committee I hope I set the stage for the project. This is a multi-year project multi-year Development projects. We don't have all the funding for all the elements obviously and there is much more planning to go into What might happen here? Any questions? No, I have a question. Where's the river it goes how far north in You said bisect. Did you mean sort of like right in the middle right smack almost in the middle? It's a it's a meandering the Fort River is a meandering stream about 20 to 30 feet wide in some places and Jennifer's cursor is I think she could probably make that color you It is right in the middle. It looks kind of like a serpent serpentine there. It is beautiful Great at the color contrast. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Jennifer is it north of the solar array that you're gonna put in the center there Or is it south of it? The solar arrays are south. Excuse me north of the river That is the only place where they could fit Myra because those were high and dry areas outside of regulated areas for rare species flood plain So the one of them is on the west and one of them is in the middle and they're both north of the river And the the trail is going to cross the river in several places or in one place or How is it? So it's gonna make meander around great questions So we have there are seven bridges on the property that were used for golf carts and and walkers and Those seven bridges we are in the in the process of Analyzing those seven bridges. Some of them will be will remain and we will Improve them so that they can be used both to maintain the solar arrays, but also to Use for the trail system And I will say that some of the other uses I forgot to mention there are so many potential uses here But I think cross-country skiing in the winter wildlife exploration Yoga and I forgot dog walking. Oh the ever important dog walking in the town of Amherst People are already walking their dogs there bird watching nature study et cetera so So let me ask a question. Sure Um, and and I may have missed this so forgive me if you've mentioned it already, but Where will the the entrance to the trail heads be and and how close are those two? Bus stops. I know there's a bus stop near that small shopping center Yes, I will I am going to talk about that right now. It's a great question because it leads into access and another central reason why we purchase the property so um So let me if I could I will I will kind of go into the trail system the first two phases of the trail system But let me back up for a minute and talk about connectivity and access and so One of the things we noticed when we were studying whether the town would purchase this property is That there was fairly limited public access a golf course is used nine ten months of the year There's high liability, you know in terms of for the golf course owners But we looked at this very strategically and and we said wow here's 150 acres relatively flat land that's been used for 60 plus years as a golf course How can we connect those residents as I said earlier living to the north living to the south living to the east west of here is really the town of adley this property Really a buts farmland to the west as you're headed kind of behind the malls and think of that area out there So the the population centers are really to the north and to the south with a lesser number of people living to the east and so how do we creatively and And in a fiscally responsible way connect people So what we began to look at is is a north south trail connection And so the phases of of the trails that we're talking about here jennifer Maybe you could pan and get us the north up to the north of the property The north side of hickory ridge way up near mill valley apartments If you just yeah, I'm I'm getting there pull that down There's a lot I have to move the people So to Ian's question earlier what we're proposing is a north south core trail that would begin actually Way up on east hadley road and We're working with the apartment owners the the and managers of the brook mill valley apartments and renew We've already met with them They have we're in talks with them about connecting those apartment complexes and condominiums To this trail system There's general interest and and I think supportive interest in that happening Always questions about liability come up So we're trying to work our way through those But the goal would be to have a trail that starts up on the multipurpose Sidewalk on east hadley road And comes all the way down through the northern portion jennifer is outlining here The northern portion of the property skirts the side of the solar panels And then connects out to west street so that people can get to and from The village center at pomeroy village center Now the pluses here and the connectivity we see and what what excited us about this Was that we just redid the sidewalks to create multi-purpose path Multi-purpose pathways on east hadley road as many of you know those Connect again the the apartment complexes and the neighborhoods if you will north of of north and south of east hadley road with A grove park and the new playground and spray park there And we are now proposing to do a multi-purpose path from east hadley road all the way down And loop it over to west street Where we just redid the sidewalks north Of the new pomeroy village Roundabout and those sidewalks go all the way up to the entrance to crocker farm school So again, I'm trying to paint this picture of connectivity and accessibility In these sidewalks. So our trail would be six feet wide It would be a crushed stone Very finely crushed stone or trap rock gravel hard pack Accessible trail at five percent grade or less It would have Informational kiosks. It would have seating areas And obviously the kiosks and signage Would all talk about Obviously directional information as well as interpretive information as you're exploring the site So people would be able to move from the the north Neighborhoods all the way down to the village center Exit out onto west street sidewalks and get all the way down to do anything they'd like by bike Or other means on this accessible trail So that is one portion of our trail complex. I have a question. Yes Some of the material you said said six feet wide and then something else said eight feet wide Is these will all be six feet wide that will be our standard Um, is it impossible to make it wider? From a financial standpoint and a permitting standpoint. Yes This is a highly permitted project from the state So we are in estimated habitat for rare species floodplain wetlands vernal pool setbacks It is Probably one of the most complex. It's certainly the the most complex trail system. I've ever permitted in my career It is it is that many layers of of permitting so to some degree the state has Determined a lot of these factors for us Just so if anybody knows anybody know the width of the stilvio county trail I don't know it. I suspect that is six. I've been on it many times, but I I doubt it is eight But I we we could know it's not a I know it's not eight And it's actually sort of tough sometimes when there are a lot of people And there are going to be a lot of people and it's not going to be directionalized So I can see a little bit of issues there, but okay, especially from the accessibility perspective Will there be bicycles that share this space too as well as walkers? There may be we're not going to promote it as a bike path. It is not a bike path and I think from It is not something like the norwatic rail trail for instance Um, but some users particularly north south may choose to use a bike But we're not going to be promoting it as a bike path So that is that is phase There are kind of two phases where we're we're doing at once one is the north south connection and then down in the lower left corner of this image is a Loop trail that we are developing off the parking lot. So jennifer may be able to circle the parking area So the parking area for this facility will Exist already. It is the old parking area for The hickory ridge golf course and we're proposing some improvements to that that I'll go over in a minute But we're also creating a loop trail that if someone wants to simply enjoy the the beautiful environment This will be similar as myra mentioned the conty trail. I'm glad you did because we will In some ways be mimicking the conty trail on this outline that jennifer is now completing This will again be a six foot wide very Very level less than five percent grade loop trail like the conty refuge You'll be going through fields and meadows And some forested areas and then along the Fort river There will be two small Very short crossings over wetlands two bridges very small short bridges and then Slightly elevated but still meeting code Boardwalk over a wet Sloggy meadow you might call it a wet meadow wetland. So there'll be an opportunity to Get out in nature to you know, see birds see animals see the fort river In a safe and accessible loop trail. It'll be about three quarters of a mile long There will be informational signs informational kiosks and benches along the way And so parking for That facility will be at the main parking lot off of um west pomeroy lane So when you talk about the accessible trail you're talking about the loop not the Um thoroughfare kind of one No, both the north south and the loop trail will be designed in a in a very similar way six feet wide Five percent grade or less with the exact same amenities That I just talked about I I want to mention in a minute on the map because there's a lot going on here On the map in a phase two. We are proposing to connect the two We don't have the funding for this. We have the funding for the loop trail And we have the funding for the north south connection But in the future in a phase two, we're proposing to connect the loop trail with the north south Through way or interstate. No, I don't want to call it that thoroughfare So what's the distance between the two that would need to be created as a connection? Uh, that's a great question. Myron. I came up at a meeting. I want to say it's I don't have it at the top of my head. We have a scale chris. This came up in a meeting It looks like that scale It looks like about I want to say 1200 feet 1200 to 1400 feet chris am I yeah, I agree with that. Yep. Yeah of a quarter of a mile Yeah, a little more than a gram a little less than a quarter of a mile So our goal in the future, we would seek additional grant funding cpa community preservation act funding and other funding to connect these two trails and what's the length of the trail from Pomeroy to east hadley road. Do you know that? That's a couple miles Pomeroy From well ultimately from the parking lot at west Pomeroy all the way to east Hadley road um It may be as long chris helped me out there again. Um Are we thinking that's probably it may be a mile? Three or four thousand feet three or four thousand feet, I would say That's all it is from Pomeroy to east Hadley three or four thousand feet five Wow I don't have I bet it's a mile and a half. Yeah, I don't have Yeah, okay, maybe But is again our our goal here is to try to make as much of the property accessible as possible To all people all users all visitors With a goal of of having folks be able to explore the the beauty the serenity the the wildlife And and go there with their family and friends and enjoy this this gorgeous piece of property You said dogs. Can you are you planning a dog park on it? We are not planning a dog park. Um, I have helped build one dog park for the town and I think having one dog park is a Really good number Yeah, I agree Especially now since they've shown that it's actually the huge spreaders of disease Well, we have we have 80 miles of trails in Amherst that are open to dogs on leash Our goal here would be that this would be not very similar to the Conti refuge that this would be dogs on leash only That is our good. Thank you Yep Interesting, okay, so pause here and and more questions if yeah, what questions do people have? I have one at least does um I know that you probably covered this but I didn't quite get it Um access to near bus stops Oh, thank you. Yes, um Thank you. I I I got Carried away as I sometimes do excited about this project and Ian had mentioned that So the nearest bus stop will actually be up on east Hadley road um As the crow flies there are also new new and improved bus stops Along west street down near the village center but there We do not have a way of there is no bus route that goes down west Pomeroy lane So to Ian's earlier question, there are bus stops near the new roundabout at the Pomeroy village center and then there are bus stops up on east Hadley road in front of the brook and renew Out on the the frontage there Hey, so if you're coming from like let's say the center of town north pleasant street Would there be a bus that can connect to that to you know, like how does one one one would need to Um, if if somebody were coming by bus they would need to Get off at the village center at Pomeroy lane And then pick up the trail which would again be right off of west street And jennifer, maybe you could circle where that is in pink Right there But there is no, you know, we we do not control nor fund the new bus routes for the pvta and I I I doubt at this point that You know, we could add a bus just to serve this facility In the future our hope is that we may have funding for a sidewalk to come from the village center down west Pomeroy lane So that folks could use that sidewalk to access Yeah, that kind of limits accessibility to a lot of people If you don't I mean, I understand that you can't cover pvta and all that but it does limit a lot of accessibility to a lot of people If they can't come from town Well, well they can come from town It's just they have to go to that location on west street so Yeah, so so so Once they leave west street, they are You know, they are out in nature. I mean they are on the property in in, you know But you have to get to west street. Yeah, there's a bus that goes down west street. Yeah, there's a bus that goes down west street Oh, it's not it's not terribly frequent Once you get past east Hadley road, it's not very frequent. The one that's frequent is the one that goes Down, I think it's I don't know what it's called anymore, but it goes down east West it goes down what's called south pleasant and the name changes at east Hadley road It turns on east Hadley road. So you can get all there On that bus the one that goes all the way to south Amherst Is not as frequent, but it would go right past. Is that correct Dave? Yes Okay, good to know. Thank you that clarifies that. Yeah Our goal as I said our goal We would love to have a sidewalk down west Pomeroy. It is again a very wet area So quite complex to permit and very costly I would not be surprised and chris could jump in here if she's still with us. Yes, there she is I would not be surprised if it were Three quarters of a million dollars or more to get a sidewalk from the from the roundabout to to the to the Parking there It's expensive because you have to cross a stream there. So there would have to be a bridge Which is very expensive. Yep Speaking of water When you have water you have Even pressure treated wood that doesn't last all that long So there's going to be high maintenance costs On this to maintain all the bridges to keep vegetation off the trail if it's going to be accessible To do all of that and I know that isn't part of the project and it can't because it's operating budget. However Have you talked to people about the commitment that's going to be required to keep this main? You know accessible more than two seasons Yes, no, we've we've talked um, we have our building commissioner Our planning department as well as our engineering um an engineer working on this. We had um an outside engineer um From dotson and associates. I believe the plans were in your packet help us to design this There's very little pressure treated lumber. This is uh quite Distinct from the kanthi if folks have been to the us fish and wildlife service kanthi walkway um That is I would say that 70 percent pressure treated lumber. Yep. That is not this trail How are you building the bridges? What are they going to be the bridges the bridges are very short? I mean the bridges i'm going to say are six feet long two six foot long bridges eight foot long bridges and then a walkway Um over a wetland, but um, this is not an elevated boardwalk like the kanthi refuge I think that's a really good point myrid and and makes us different Okay, we are going to have to maintain the six foot wide crushed stone path And that will require maintaining particularly the edges to make sure we don't lose it to vegetation And then it will require some annual maintenance As rain and snow and the elements Can affect the surface of that six foot wide path and that will require some maintenance We do have a lot of people who are very eager to help the town with this Including the kestrel trust and a number of volunteer groups and then of course we have the conservation staff So I think I think we have a a reasonable plan moving forward But it is there is not much pressure treated lumber in this in this proposal as with kanthi Cool. Okay. Other questions people Because I keep having them. Yeah, I have one question is okay I'm glad you clarified about um access along west pomemery road and I would assume I mean, I haven't heard anything about the um parking area Because the access from west pomemery road to the site is very steep And won't be compliant. Are you going to regrade it so that It is accessible We could I believe we have a slide of the proposed improvements to the parking area I also wanted to just um and I and we'll That's a really good question. Um, so we'll go to that slide in just a minute I think jennifer I I don't know in the packet if you included any of the images of what the trail would look like With people on it. Did you include any of those jennifer? I don't recall That was in the packet You had some sections. Okay, some sections through it. Okay, and I noticed pamela's hand is up as well. So Emma I believe pamela's hand has been up the entire meeting as um, she was trying to get my attention to Of earlier when I was trying to make her a panelist So, why don't why don't we go to the um, sorry just one one more quick additional question to My question about the buses and and elisa's question as well um Am I reading the map correctly that it's about either 2,000 feet from the the green roundabout to the yellow parking lot And maybe 1,500 feet from the green roundabout to the the pink circle That's about right if that scale is correct on the lower left. Yeah, okay Thanks So why don't we go to the image of the parking area? Can I ask one more silly fundamental question because I think I missed their whole point If if the handicap loop if the loop The three-quarter mile loop comes off the parking lot And you cannot get To it on a sidewalk How is it accessible? You can't get to it from the other path And you can't get to it. I don't I'm missing something here Yep, let's go. That's a great question and a great segue to the the image of the the proposed improvements to the parking Yeah Jennifer is going to take off some of the other So So so let me make sure I don't lose any of those questions. So let me start with myra's which is a fundamental question So Absolutely. So We are proposing to make some modest improvements to the parking lot So that um people every user all users Will be able to park safely Near the loop trail and then we will bring the loop trail out to the edge of that parking lot so that anyone Who with a disability can Access their vehicle or whatever vehicle they are coming in School groups, etc can park in the parking lot. There will be appropriate signage for those spaces and then they will be able to immediately go from the pavement The paved area which we are proposing to crack seal and then Reline with all the appropriate Um Signage etc and then they as where jennifer's cursor is indicating they will be able to go right onto the six foot wide accessible path And then enter the loop trail out in nature Um, but how do they get to the parking lot? How do they get to it if they don't drive a car? Which I think was in and alice's point that I sort of missed this this entrance like many other you know, we've been before you recently we came before you for the sweet alice parking lot off of bay road and also the podic kathryn coal zala parking lot off of 116 Where we're doing some trailhead improvements and trail access improvements But we are not envisioning at this time that people would be able to walk or access The the frontage of the property in a wheelchair And and get to this point you would you would need to drive to this point Um, and then Disembark from your vehicle and then access the trail very similar to again kanthi Once you leave the kanthi trail head None of that area is accessible. We can't that's the problem with it. No Yeah, exactly Only works if you're in the park but but again we we There is no sidewalk on west pomeroy lane. We we actually don't want Pedestrians. We don't want bicycles. We don't want anyone really Accessing the property from that location at this time because we can't we don't have the funding to make west pomeroy lane Fully accessible at this time. It would be as I said earlier, perhaps a million dollars to make well road accessible Okay, well Well, so you could get there at least if you got a pvta van But you couldn't get there if you needed to take a bus Okay, well That's a lot of trouble. Okay. Well have fun guys Um, I guess this is just a random question Could the parking lot be set up such that a pvta stop could be easily added there? Should pvta decide to that it's worth their while I think in the future that's a great question I think in the future as I said before as we look at the village center growing to the east near the roundabout And we look at you know other Other, you know future Transitions of the pvta system We could easily design You know a pull-off there. We are we are in the midst of looking at that entire area for what else would be there There may be a fire station there. There may be a senior center there There may be affordable housing there. So all of that is yet to be determined What's on the south side of west pomeroy? Is there a sidewalk there? There is no sidewalk on the south side of west pomeroy. Not at all. Okay No A pomeroy is a very narrow road high speeds Lots of wetlands as chris said and a stream So it's a it's a very challenging road to make improvements on So so this this spot is really more of a destination point disembark The the parking lot and the trail will be fully accessible and then from the north We are providing access to those folks who live in renew the boulders the brook and you will be able to come off the fully accessible sidewalk on uh east hadley road to access the trail to get down to the village center and back so if you're going for alise For alise's question if you're going From that drop off point on east hadley road and you want to walk You want to go for a walk? You can't access the loop because there's no connection between the two paths But you can go Down an accessible path From east hadley road to West street to the village center Correct Okay, so it'll like it'll like curl over It'll like it curves over so it starts north south and it ends up east west exactly one way The one way we might think about this is in phases is that the only way we could fund this and do this is We're trying to provide Access to the property in two different locations. I mean to some degree what you see on the loop trail It's a different path. It's a different trail But it's It's similar habitats if you will you'll be able to see the river on the loop trail Well, if you go on the north south trail, you'll be able to see the river as well. So we're trying to First in phase one provide access to as many people as we possibly can And then connect the two But we don't have the funding initially at the outset to connect the two So they're two different experiences if you will Somebody could even Again, it's it's a it's a decent walk But we envision this trail. Let's say you live in the village center down near mission cantina and and pomeroy you could If you you we're providing access up to the north you could then pick up the sidewalk on um East Adley road and make your way all the way to grove park for a morning with family at grove park And make it all the way back on On fully accessible trails. So that's kind of I at least in this first phase I would think about them as two distinct New resources for the town If that makes sense to folks So the first to be built will be the connecting pathway The second to be built will be the loop the third to be built would be the connect connector I might be mixing that up at the north south trail and the loop trail will be built first The connector will be in future years. Okay. So the first two will be built at the same time. Yes. Okay our goal They're separate and distinct actually because you can have two totally different experiences Um, our goal is to have them built by the end of june 2024. Oh my god So what questions do we need to ask them about? accessibility other than The problem with silvio conti and the the really only problem that i've seen Because i've seen people with wheelchairs on it is That they that the maintenance is extremely Um important because the vegetation spreads the water gets on the trail, you know, like things wash out and things Um, you know and gets covered with vegetation. It has to be cleaned a lot And I assume that that will hold true for all of these paths Even if there's no boards to rot out there is flooding, you know, there's stuff that's going to happen When there's a lot of water and ice Yes, and and to be perfectly honest These trail systems may close part of the year when the river floods um, we just got three or four inches of rain and If this trail were built right now, we would have had to close part of it until the water recedes Okay, huh. That's just working working working within nature Okay, what questions do we have about the actual accessibility of you know, like with the Not this I get now we get the big picture What questions do people have about the small picture accessibility issues? any um Winter time Will this be Accessible and will you have people Plowing the trails Sanding the trails or will it be closed In the winter time It it's a great question. Thank you for that question The short answer is no, we we don't have the resources to plow these trails in the winter So they would close in the winter um Even if we could plow them our concern would be to you know, that could we make them safe of free of ice Water puddles and snow and I think the short answer is no We we couldn't guarantee that so we wouldn't want to have them open to In the winter they will be open if people want to To uh, snowshoe or or cross country ski they can They can enjoy but we will not be plowing them in the winter They will close at some point That is if we get snow and the way winters are going these days It's anybody's guess other questions Yes I have one Oh, just here. Yes This is Jim creating here Go ahead And and this is well, that's a question. I guess that an observation about overall access To These new trails and and that has to do with I you know, I think the town as a whole Town government as a whole should be looking for ways to encourage Ways to get folks with disabilities To this area and I don't know, you know, whether honestly, I do not know whether the Council on Aging has a van Uh, I don't know what kind of steps the town might look into. So this isn't just a you know, it's not a You know, Department of Conservation issue or something like that But I do think there should be ways for the town to promote access I mean if if you build something to say, hey, this is open to all but you're not really encouraging People to get there then it isn't open to all and I I'm not foreseeing Something, you know with every hour During the summer that some sort of van leaving the bank center or something like that But I do think that there should be ways for the town to coordinate better transportation services there Maybe I'm nuts, but that's what I think No, you're not Thank you Yeah, maybe there could be Once it's built, maybe there could be a Every Tuesday and Thursday at nine o'clock You can take the van to the parking lot and there's a pickup at a certain time and it's regularly scheduled So that the town van could do that as a bus route and Then people could actually use it because Ian and Elise's point that they made earlier that I missed is Is is really well taken. I mean if they can't do anything about west palmery lane, then you know, I believe them that they can't um, but programmatically the town can do things that will Connect that will make it easier I have a question actually for Dave You know how people do things people who can walk They will go off the trail if they want to go from one place to another and there's a shorter route to do it, right? Like everybody always makes their own footpath through that Becomes a dirt path because when you built the sidewalk you didn't do what people would do so they did it themselves, right? And I mean you can see it everywhere where they put a sidewalk and then you see oh look That's how people go they go up at that dirt path because it takes because it's shorter So the question is is there's so much wetland in here that people are not going to Go off the trails and make and you know walk through the golf course area Or are they going to have to stay on the path? Well, that's a great question I did just want to acknowledge the earlier comment about Transportation and I think it's a really good one and I think Pamela and Chris and Jennifer and I can Take that back to the respective Folks we work with here in town hall and and our other committees and boards and I think that's a really good Suggestion, you know could we in the future if This truly becomes the resource that we all wanted to become um Might there be a schedule of transportation to it in you know the better months obviously in the middle of february I don't know if any of us are going to be out there. We might be You know home warm drinking a cup of tea, but um, but but you you understand where I'm going I do know that the Conti refuge Um, I believe there are numbers of visitors now. There's a lot of repeat visitors there But I think there are over 30 000 people a year at the Conti Walkway over in Hadley. So I would expect there to be significant use of this from both residents as well as visitors um So your question Myra was more um What are people going to do that isn't on the path? We call them kind of desire lines, right Chris um So so we'll we'll encourage people to stay on trails I think the Conti refuge does a pretty good job of that But yes, there are always going to be those folks who are kind of intrepid and and they want to get from point a to point b um We we also call them bootleg trails. We don't love them in the conservation planning world Whether you're cutting across a town common or a or a sensitive ecological area We discourage them. So we're going to do everything we can We may use split rail fence split rail fence is a surprisingly effective kind of subtle and you know, aesthetically pleasing way of kind of Corralling all of us to go in the direction that Planners want us to go And so we we're going to use split rail fence in some areas to keep people There are sensitive turtle nesting areas out here and we don't want people We don't want dogs going in those areas. So we're going to use that as kind of a subtle directional hints like stay on the trail and you know We might even put up, you know sensitive ecological Area signs in some places Okay, we'll do our best Other questions go ahead. Uh, pardon it. Um, just to the time check. It's um 12 30 now So I know that there are more uh more topics to get to Actually, thank you very much, asa. All right. So do you um, Dave, if you think of things you need from us I mean, it doesn't sound like we have anything to do except that we have Um, you know, we've heard the story And you might come back if you have some questions about what would be more accessible this or that Um, no, that that would be what that would be that would be wonderful. We would very much Like to continue to interface with you all as the project moves forward. I would I would you know, I would welcome a site visit out there as things are coming together, uh, you know, just to To to invite you out there in the spring of 24 We're going to be really on a very tight timeline because these grant sources want this all built By june 1 or june 30. So we are going to be racing to the finish line But we would love to to have you remain involved with us And it's an important town project and just one piece of Of many other things that might happen out there But we we we appreciate your input today and I think chris and jennifer and I will kind of take all of these comments Um, many of them just spot on about about access with pomeroy lane transportation. Those are really good comments And feet, okay Thank you all for coming This is very instructive So um, if we have questions, we'll know we'll send them to panel. I shall get them to you Myra jennifer has her hand up. Oh Thank you. Thank you, ann To follow up on what davis saying I would definitely welcome Um, you know a a list of you know, sort of a wish list of both, um, you know Things that you think based on our presentation could be accomplished within the budget And things that are more, you know, a long term along the lines of what We were just discussing and you know with van access or more sidewalk access or those types of things And really, you know anything it's like throw it all in there just so that we get a sense of what What would make a project like this more ideal for people who have accessibility concerns Okay Thank you May I add this is chris breastrup? That the planning board will be reviewing this next wednesday So it would be helpful if we had any comments that you wanted to offer to the planning board before next wednesday Okay, which is the 20th. Yes. Thanks chris. It could even be a brief memo chris, right with bulleted memo or something like that Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah All right, well try to come up with that. Okay. All right. I just I just wanted to thank you all. Um, I think we're all staff from the staff standpoint. We're all really proud that we're We're we we put this project out there as trying to make as many of the trails at hickory ridge as possible Accessible to as many people as possible. So that's been a goal from the start of this project So and that's not always true in lots of other towns and you know some trails We just can't you know, they're You know, there are challenges of topography and roots of tree roots, but this one we we really we led with accessibility So i'm really proud of it and we really want you all to To be there with us when when when we cut a ribbon and and explore this new habitat together. So thank you all Okay, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks very much. Bye. Bye All right, uh, jim you brought the the uh, austin visited a Can't say that word visitability materium idea to us um and Why did you tell us what you had in mind? I think we all read it. Um, and it's fascinating to me. So, um Uh, take it away Is jim there jim you're muted. Yeah, I just I just unmuted I my phone wasn't behaving as it never has been Yeah, I I think I probably oversold it a bit when we first discussed this maybe two or three months ago uh, because I Repeated what people had said to me as opposed to looking at the materials I think that they're I know that there are more restrictions in massachusetts in terms of what Uh ordinances can do as far as private Homes are concerned or even developments to some extent and texas is notorious in a lot of good ways because it means housing is cheaper Um, and we also see that uh, you know, if you google some around housing and austin Uh, one of the things that developers will say well the reason that housing is more expensive in austin than in other places is that, uh, you have this stupid visitability Ordnance, so It's more expensive because they can get away with it Yeah, exactly. Um So I I think that but on the other hand, you know, I think that in this community This is it obviously We have folks in wheelchairs folks with mobility impairments Who could definitely better, you know, a lot of times they simply can't Visit their neighbors now, you know with existing housing Forget it. That's not going to happen unless the the person wants to You know do some renovations, but the idea that the threshold of the home should be even With the sidewalk Uh, the idea that doors Doorways in the home should be, you know, at least 30 inches wide These are good improvements and they make um all homes accessible, uh Not only to visitors, but the idea that, you know, you're looking around you're looking at downsides or something like that is as you get older and we all know well not some of you don't know but anyway, some of us do that Things don't get more fun as you get older. They get a little more challenging And so, you know, you're looking around for a home and you don't want to do $20,000 worth of improvements But you'll find something that's visitable and you can work with that So I think from my perspective, it's definitely worth Exploring in terms of what is possible in massachusetts and what's possible in amherst Maybe we can't uh say you have to do this. Maybe we have to look at trying to create incentives Maybe building permits don't cost as much or something like that if You abide by visitability guidelines those kinds of things But uh, so I I really wanted the group to take a look at this and and start to think about it Um, I have a question to you. Uh, the thing that you sent said that there were pilot projects like in Oklahoma and utah and georgia and you know a place like that and they're all Low regulation states. Um, do you do you know of any in more high regulation states Do you know any place that we could use as a model that would be a place that I mean, I I think I can do more research and check that out Uh, but that you know off the top of my head and from what I've seen I do not and nor do I nor have I seen anything really in massachusetts I heard people say oh, well, it's in massachusetts, but it's not um, so I I can I can do more research on that and I apologize for not covering that base before I mean this no that would be cool. Well, one of the other reasons that they're doing that is they have so much They have so much new construction and we don't Yes, yeah, you know there. I mean austin is a boom town until it isn't but it's a boom town and and uh, you know, the Atlanta or Atlanta area is Booming, you know, and they're building building building and so it's really easy To do that and because there's so much call for new stuff. There just isn't that much building here um But it's absolutely right, you know, it's a great idea I mean if it makes a hundred percent sense Why didn't anybody ever think about that? Because you can't go visit my mother can't come visit my house Because she can't get up the two steps that you have to get in you know get to my house and my My place is so small that the bathroom door is 24 inches wide and there's no way to make it wider And you know, it's not like we built it. So um You know, if we were building it we would we would do it differently So just having regulations in what way marty and what way way that he's what he's looking for How does that differ from what you would what you'd be required to build in a house? Okay, there's a couple of things. There's there's several things about the proposed Visitability thing that that sort of struck me That it works in austin it probably won't work in massachusetts, especially in amherst um Because there aren't very many flat sites um I having the concept of having a a low threshold Is frankly a real issue in massachusetts in in our weather It works fine in austin, but it doesn't work here. Yeah, because we need to have the threshold above the The paving in order to not flood our house It is a real issue. I have I actually have A property in vermont and we built an addition and I made the threshold flush and actually created a problem So that is an issue um That we need that we'll have to deal with the other thing is we just don't have a lot of flat sites There aren't too many sites today that are available unless they're on You know the farmland That are that actually don't have um A height differential on the site that would make it very difficult to make it accessible um, but you know that said It's a nice thing to have the other thing that bothered me about the The presentation was that On a that the code that they had Allowed you to get into the house And these are all single family houses That allowed you to get into the house, but once you got in you couldn't go anywhere. In fact the plans they showed Yeah, maybe maybe the door to the bathroom was big enough, but if you're in a chair There's no way you're going to get in there and use the toilet. So that that's what I was wondering that defeats the purpose 30 inches is not big enough for a chair, correct Um, I like 36 you can do it in 30 You can do it in 30. I prefer 36 now the state of massachusetts requires all front doors to be 36 inches wide Right, so there's all you know my husband's in a chair right now and and We put a short ramp up to the to the Front door and then luckily our house is all one floor And I can get him with that if he doesn't have his foot rests and I can get him around into the bathroom Which has a 30 inch door But we have purposely Done a lot of work on our house to make it accessible as we age so That's a whole different thing, but In the state of massachusetts Any housing that's four or more units is required to have um accessible entrances um, I have experienced living in another country in turkey and there the The designs are so that all the doors inside the house are the same width And the whether it is the bathroom Or the living room or one of the bedrooms and all corridors are Wide it's not like here. So when we came here um And we were looking for a place where we could buy and renovate We could not find anything suitable the corridors were so Narrow and if you put a wide bathroom door it there wasn't enough A dimension for you to curve in to get into the bathroom So that really has nothing to do with the Weather conditions outside, whether it's new england or south it's just an understanding that the designs should be Made so that it is at least inside the building it's easily accessible Like in your case with your mother Myra, you know, if the doors are wide Once she's inside So you'll just try to find an accessible entrance, you know, like build the Portable ramp or do something, you know, but inside it is not comfortable She can't move around so I know I face the same situation But I didn't face it Once I'm inside the building in turkey. We didn't really have any problems at all So it is just the concept that the builders the architects should have I wonder what it is in europe In other countries like what it is in germany. I think I'll try to See if I can find anything European buildings are pretty tight. Yeah, pal European buildings are pretty tight Part of the issue is that you're talking about sarin is is the cost of construction um It's well, I mean larger. It's a much greater cost I mean turkey is I assume that the buildings that you were in were largely masonry and Yeah, we're not wood frame. Yeah, wooden field frame is very different. You also in turkey You don't get a lot of air conditioning. They use the building as a breathing It's it's a whole different concept because of the the climate in turkey Right, but why does it have anything to do with the width of the bathroom doors? It's not just the bathroom doors. It's just the when you go into those structures In in those climates you find it in greece. You find it in um other Areas in that kind of a climate where they have larger um Everything's a little bit larger than we have here in the states and it's largely because of They use it as a climate um Keeping the house cool, you know, it's like the nubian structures that have the dome on them Well, that dome is really important to keeping your house cool in the summer So it has a lot to do with with the environment here in new england where it's really cold We build much smaller Because you don't want to heat as much space And that's where the you know, you look at old new england homes and they have 24 inch doors They have 30 inch corridors. It's if you live in an old house It's miserable to try and put a queen size bed into a bedroom. Yep Just getting it up the stairs, you know, you look at the old Their stairs are really steep and shallow and they turn Yeah, and they turn and that's because they the old builders squeezed every single inch Out of the building because they didn't want to heat it You know, when you think about trying to heat a house with a wood fire You're going to make it as small as possible And that's the difference. Um Yeah, I wish we all could live in nice spacious places Right but marty times have changed they have more they have changed but it still It's still an issue of Of heating and cooling It's the cost of that and the cost of building it itself That's that's and I'm not justifying it. I'm just saying that's where the decisions are Yeah, maybe we can do some advocacy and try to make a change Yeah, so Jim is going to be only on the person who is building the property Yeah, we're probably not going to get an ordinance But it would be I think the place Jim said to start is a good idea if we can find anybody in a high regulation Uh northern colder state that has created this kind of Incentive or anything that thinks about the visitability of homes That would be great because if there was a model out there Then we could jump off the model and do you know make some do some advocacy, but you know if they're There are a lot of reasons proposed by jim and marty That might make this very difficult. So jim are you in a do you have a network of people that you might be able to Contact about this Absolutely Cool. All right. So bring that. I mean, they're still talking to me and it should be fine My record is okay, kody No, they're all people out there who think they are being Uncessible friendly, but they really Not They don't think about x y z it's unless Get this done and today Even if it was We see poorly made The Call accessible friendly build You know Even with this idea You know, it's old job that we Surveys a really big Is a contract to the network for ways to just get the job done and I don't feel they really care or want to go back to the drawing board and say well this needs to be changed well that needs to be changed They don't want to do that Oh, yeah, okay. There was a lot of crackling on his feed So at least for me I didn't catch a lot of it because there was a lot of crackling Um, does did anybody hear it better than I did? Um, I think I got the end. Um, I got the end. Yeah It just was it about um how you were disappointed with the hickory ridge project not coming to us earlier about planning and like Not going back to the planning to the drawing board about that or um um, no I'm just saying in general I just think when we talk about accessibility friendly places that I know we see a lot of already development places in a country especially us at a point where it's different Okay All right. Thank oh, thank you Um, we have oh, yeah, um pat isn't here correct pat de angeles Correct, okay, so we don't have any uh information about becoming a commission um The other thing that is at the end I forget what they were the other little ones Um, what were they? Let's see Um, the collaboration with the north hampton disability commission. Oh, yeah, Ian, um Do we have anything? I'm sorry. I don't um, I will After we get off the the call now, I'll send them an email. Um, so I Lose it on my on my radar. Okay Um, let's see. Wait. I'm looking And what's the what's the other one? Um Oh the elementary school, okay, so We were they were supposed to come back to us Today we were talking about the playground surfaces We made a deal Then I got an email from kathy shone About shane who said basically we're voting which was last friday on this. Have you gotten any chance to discuss it? We really didn't get a chance to discuss it. She wasn't at our meeting I guess they didn't communicate with her and they wouldn't voted it anyway So I don't know that we have anything to say about it And that's as far Pamela, do you understand that differently or is Pamela not there? No, Pamela I don't believe so. Is this about the um About the packet of information that had been sent to us very short notice or um, no, no, no But the elementary thing that we did. Yeah, that short notice thing apparently got cancelled amherst college apparently Decided they didn't want to pursue something. They didn't even let us know So we didn't know what it was about and we didn't know that they why they resolved it But they don't want us involved. I guess I can give you a little Tom davies called me okay The board had the same reservations I had about those stairs that they were too narrow yep, so the architect was in town last week and Um, tom davies said they pulled it because they decided they're going to revisit it And he thinks that they may be back um in the future with some request for um parents on it, but they're rethinking those two stairs Fabulous. Yes So they actually do turn things down sometimes good to know Yeah, it's it's sort of dicey. I I have to say I'm I didn't I didn't see this as our purview um Because the width of the stair is not an issue um in the code, but evidently the board Determined that it was in their purview. I would have thought the building inspector would have been the one who would have uh turned this down as a problem in the main code Because winding stairs are not allowed in public buildings Well It's a jurisdictional issue okay So and and our building well building inspectors have allowed other things to go by that We didn't think we're such a good idea and not ours only the state sometimes. Yeah, um, so yeah Okay, so we have three sets of minutes um, which I think Yeah I did have a question about the elementary school. Oh, yeah, okay I missed the last part of the discussion because I had to be someplace else when we talked about it back in november and I Wondered whether you I I'm sure you did cover emergency uh exits Uh and how that would work um, and I just one well I'm I'm assuming that that happened because it's a multi-story building And it's not always easy to get people out of the multi-story. You would be incorrect in assuming that we covered it Okay, because we didn't Um, we we were trying to cover a lot of other things. We needed more time with them We arranged for more time with them and then we were told they were voting last friday and that's pretty much that So i'm very confused Because we were we invited them back And they agreed to come back and then two days before Like last wednesday. Maybe I got this thing from kathy shane that said we're voting on friday I hope you discussed the playground and like we didn't get to the playground You know, I had been asking her to bring us um material for maybe since last spring Telling her that we needed to be involved And they were you know, they had their cons their accessibility consultants and everything was great And we know that every time the accessibility consultants come to us. We somehow find things they didn't think about um, so I you know, I've been asking her for quite some time um, and then we got this big meeting which She wasn't able to attend and then we extended it to this month and then they voted before we Got to our next meeting which Was not a surprise meeting. It's a fixed date meeting. So I am very concerned about it And I will write to her with your questions about egress and the playground because somehow I feel like They didn't want us particularly in the process to begin with until the very end And then they didn't wait And I understand why they didn't wait because they're on a very strict timeline But they should have said we can't meet on december 12th. We need an emergency meeting and we would have had one so um anyway Marty am I from the uh from the uh architect perspective on my you want to throw things at me for what I just said so no they needed to know because We all know what happens Yeah, we all know that we as a group I think as a group we're very good at seeing things that other people don't think about And I'm very sad that they went ahead. I'm going to write to her as soon as we're done now apparently I have to write a letter about the um About what we discussed. So I guess what we discussed is that we're um You know, I mean, I think what's not to support about a project, but it doesn't seem like It has optimal accessibility unless the town Through the van at the senior center Yes, um provides access to the parking lot And because you know very well at least that if you call the pvta And you want to you want to be out there for two hours you might be out there for three and a half Yeah, no, it's just too much trouble and and the way they have the the silver van now They you have to like schedule something way in advance So Some other system So that people can I mean it bugs the hell out of me that people keep using the word accessible And it's not Yeah, you know So yeah Well, it may be accessible, but it's not available. That's okay. That's a better way to put it Um because you can you will be able to get out of the parking lot And get to the the path and it'll be a three-quarter mile and you can go a mile and a half go around it twice Very nice unencumbered. Um, however, if you can't get to the parking lot That's the problem. Yeah, exactly And that's a programmatic problem that the town has to address The pvta will not address it and the parent transit is very hit and miss You might want to go and you might get exactly what you want But you might end up sitting in the parking lot waiting for them for 45 minutes to pick you up I've experienced that. Yes. I have I have had many dealings with them I expect we've all sat and waited for pvta bands. Um, You know Waiting much longer than we wanted to and if it's a hot day in the summer You don't really want to sit there. So one thing we might want to suggest That there be a shelter in off the parking lot for shade That somebody they do want to wait for a van to pick them up that they're not sitting in the hot sun So that's one thing we could ask for or yeah Yeah, that's a good idea That's a good idea with it to to share the letter that we sent to um I can't remember what what committee it was at the state legislator Legislature that was working on accessible paths Um, but with this very very concerned back in early october, I think Um to share that with the town You know, I didn't um, I wasn't at the october meeting. So what did we do? Sorry, this was People from the committee on making paths more accessible Yeah, when it came like last summer they came. Yeah, okay Yeah, um, so they had a they had a hearing in I think either late september or the october and uh, I'd written a A letter on the behalf of the committee Raising these concerns about being able to get to The trail heads. Can you share that with me? Yeah. Yeah All right, or do you want to take the responsibility of writing this letter to the town Based on our conversation today I mean if you wanted you can use your letter you can jump off of it You can say that we really appreciate the the work that the town is doing and that we're excited about the possibility of two accessible trails and about joining them eventually But here are our concerns which are that there is no There is no availability of of um Of that we're not the access isn't available to people who don't have cars I mean, that's really the problem and it's not a conservation commission problem. It's a town problem to solve Right, this is not a conservation commission problem. What they're doing is very cool They can't change the top topography of east pomegranate lane west pomegranate lane They can't do that if they can't put a sidewalk there I understand that they can't put a sidewalk there But they have to have some programmatic access To the trail or they're building something for a whole bunch of people that don't need it Because they can go somewhere else with their car Yep, well, I think a letter is a good idea, but I also what I heard was was dave saying that Yeah, he was going to take this this and other suggestions back to town hall and and try to coordinate So I think we need to hold his feet to the fire a little bit Uh, you know sometime in the new year about what he said Which other suggestions are most pointing for you? For me? Yeah Well, I mean, I I think the transportation is Is the most important from my perspective. I think that the the details of access We provided good feedback today Um, but I would say that access for me is the most you know availability to use your term Of my rise is the most important issue for me. I I don't can't speak for anybody else, so I agree with him Yeah I agree with him more heartedly So either you're going to write the letter in or you're going to send it to me and I'm going to write it So whichever you choose I I I can write it I I have the the letter that I wrote to the the legislative committee already And I'll just adapt that Okay, um before you Uh, Pamela doesn't like it if you send it to everybody she wants you to send it to her And then she'll send it to all of us um to make sure Or she wasn't here. So she didn't hear most of it. Um So if you want to send it send it to her or you can send it to me You can't send it to a variety to the you can't deal with a quorum of the committee because then it's like Violation of the open meeting will so two of us you me and marty as marty's the Vice chair the three of us could share it, but we cannot share it with more than three people Or it sounds like we're having a meeting so we can't do that So if you want to send it to me and marty We can send you feedback and then you can send it back from the dea ac and Send it to pamela after we work on it. Is that all right marty? That's fine Okay, um The minutes came a long time ago Does anybody did anybody have any objections to any of the minutes because technically we have to have them We have to put them online Did anybody think of anything that we didn't send to pamela like I mean her minutes are very good. There could be like misspellings and stuff But other than that did anybody have anything of substance about any of the minutes? No I'm the minutes taker. I'm not quite done with the november 14th minutes because um, I've been having some medical issues lately and Okay, sorry to hear that increased crash responsibilities, but I'm going to be trying to get them done long minutes for this week Just by the end of the week How about september and october? Okay, and what about the group so um, I would like a motion about the september minutes I have a motion to move the september minutes Okay, thanks. We need a second second Okay, elise was first Yeah, I have to go so yeah, all right. So all in favor of september minutes I Anybody opposed to september minutes Any abstentions Okay, october minutes. I was not here. So I will abstain. I need a motion about october minutes I'll motion to uh, except october minutes. Okay second I'll second Okay, that's marty. Yes. Okay, and um, so all in favor of approval of october minutes I say I Okay, all opposed Well abstentions is me because I wasn't there All right, I need a motion to adjourn and happy new year to everybody and happy holidays And may everybody be in better shape than they're in right now. That's all I can say Thank you Okay, there's a motion to adjourn and I think jim seconded it So we need a vote to adjourn All in favor I Okay, okay. All right. Happy new year folks. Happy new year in january will be january 9th Okay, sounds good. All right. All right. Thank you folks. It's a great group. Thank you Bye. See you next year