 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. I am Paranjoy Guha Thakurtha and we are going to discuss an issue or a series of issues that are roiling the country, the credibility of the election process. We are going to talk about electronic voting machines, how they are stored, how they are transported, how they are kept and we are going to also talk about VVPATs or the Voter Verified Paper Audit Trail Machines. To discuss this issue I have with me here in the studio, Professor Rahul Roy of the Indian Statistical Institute who also happens to be a fellow of the Indian Academy of Sciences and with us here is Prabir Purokastu who is not just the editor of NewsClick but also the president of the free software movement of India. Rahul what we see is first we have a former chief election commissioner, urging the election commission, why aren't you clarifying? Speed is extremely important, this is Dr. S. Y. Kureshi. Then the election commission says, no, no, everything is order, no problems, everything is fine and all the reports, all the videos that are doing the rounds of the social media from Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Punjab, Haryana, Arunachal Pradesh all over that don't worry, everything is all right, everything is being checked. This is pertaining to pictures, videos showing EVMs being transported in private vehicles and so on and so forth. And even as we are recording this discussion representatives of 21 opposition parties are meeting the members of the election commission to express various concerns they have about the VVPATs. Okay, so now tell me, one key issue is what if there is a discrepancy found between the numbers in the electronic voting machine and that in the VVPAT. We are not clear what the election commission will do under the circumstances. Political parties including the Communist Party of India, Marxist General Secretary Sitarameshwari has said you should then have all the VVPATs in that entire looks of a constituency is checked. Is that feasible? Well, I think it's feasible because before the EVMs if you remember the election counting on ballot paper was actually done in three days and the election commission nowadays is telling us that it will take five days or a week. I don't think it's actually realistic. So election commission I would think is just exaggerating the number of days. On the 8th of April that's what the election commission claimed that the results would be delayed by five days. If 50% of all the VVPAT machines were matched with the EVMs and this is 50% of all VVPAT machines in every assembly segment. Well, first of all, so be it if that is what's required to actually ensure the fidelity of the elections. However, we don't think so one can do a real statistical analysis. I mean one thing which it's easy to understand is that so if the winning candidate and the candidate who comes number two, you know if the difference is let's say one and a half lakhs and a typical size of a constituency is around 10 lakhs in India of people who vote 10 lakhs who are eligible to vote but in less than that vote. And so if the difference is one and a half lakh let's say then you know to change the result you'll have to actually tamper at least 75,000 votes because you know if 75,000 votes were placed put for you by tampering then if you removed that It means the corresponding loss to your political opponents. Exactly. So in a one and a half lakh and let's say out of a place where 8 lakhs voted if the difference is one and a half lakh then just to ensure you know that voting has been done correctly the counting has been done correctly we need to sample a few not so many. However, if the difference is just 15,000 the difference between a winning candidate and second candidate is just 15,000 then just 7,500 votes would make a big difference. Okay you made your point earlier in the day the Supreme Court the vacation bench headed by Justice Arun Mishra dismissed yet another petition saying this matter has already been decided by the Chief Justice of India bench headed by the Chief Justice of India and he said why you coming again and again this petition is nonsense democracy will suffer. So the Supreme Court has stuck to its position that the Election Commission will have to verify not one but five randomly chosen polling booths the VVBAT matching them with the EVMs for each assembly segment is this adequate and you still have an answer the question what if there is a discrepancy. Let me take that up if there is a discrepancy because I don't think that's a scientific or a mathematical question. So I think the best answer that was what was given by Koreshi Saab he actually said in such a case all the votes in that constituency should be counted manually which means the the VVBAT slip should be counted. The important point is till date the Election Commission has not laid down any procedure if there is a discrepancy and that's a gap in the Election Commission's procedure itself which it addresses in fact that's been pointed out by a number of people and the Election Commission's defense is wherever it has been counted they have claimed that there was no discrepancy which is very hard to believe because you know human error would be there even if the EVM error is not there. So this seems to be. So you think that is the key issue that there should be a laid down procedure if there is a discrepancy. If there is a discrepancy should be procedure and I believe in the absence of a procedure what Rahul said was absolutely right that all the votes should be counted in that case manually because in that constituency clearly if you are saying EVM is always 100% correct a discrepancy would show that there is a problem and therefore it needs to be counted. And it doesn't matter whether the the the announcement of the results can deal it. Absolutely. I think the sanctity of the election process has two parts to it. One is to find out who is really one. Other is to convince both the losing candidates and the electorate that a just election has taken place and therefore the credibility of the election demands such a scenario that you count on. Okay. Now let me get back to that question. Instead of one VVPAT being matched with the EVM per assembly segment one polling booth now the Supreme Court has said five. The 21 opposition parties had been asking for 50% finally they were willing to settle for half for 25% but now it is five VVPATs to be matched with the EVMs in one assembly segment in each assembly segment. Right but there is really no scientific basis to have to have to having a number one or five or 25% or 50%. You know that's the the the thing which is if you if you want to really do a statistical analysis then it has to depend on the difference between the winning candidate and the person who is coming number two because that is that will tell you how many votes are required to change the results completely. But can this kind of micromanagement be possible? In an election of the scale that we've just had when you're talking about 543 Lok Sabha constituencies? Indeed I mean you you can just write a small little program saying that if the difference is 490,000 then this should be the total number of samples which are to be selected at random. So you're saying depending on the winning or stroke losing margin accordingly a certain number of VVPATs should be matched with the EVM? Right of course but we always you know there's all in statistics there's always to what degree of accuracy you want. If you want 100% accuracy then you'll have to count everything. If you are willing to accept some error then you'll have to count less of course if you're willing to accept more error then you have to count even less. Praveen you think it's feasible? Well the feasibility of it doesn't matter because at the end of it the sanctity of the elections far outweigh the question of feasibility I don't think that should be even brought into the question. The question really is why should we do this and we have already answered that question because the election is finally the test of Indian democracy that's the way we have what I would call an electoral democracy. A true democracy is something that we have yet to achieve that's something we have to fight for is a definition. And also if you remember before the EVMs came into the picture if the difference was less than a certain amount then it was recounted. Automatically recounted. Automatically recounted. I mean that means the losing candidate wouldn't actually have to file an application on apply for a recount it would automatically be done whenever the contest was closed. So but now we don't know what is the procedure if the difference if the difference is less are the VVPATs going to be counted or do you again plug in the machines and put in a Microsoft answer? This is a very important point Rahul is raising because till the ballot paper our understanding was the ballot paper is what would be called the ballot. With the EVM there was no paper for the initial phase. What is the ballot? The ballot became therefore the electronic recording in the EVM which is of course not tangible. Now that VVPAT is available for all the machines all the EVM the VVPAT is available. We'll have to consider the EVM as a printing and a counting machine and the ballot as a printing paper. This is legally how I think if you look at both the quote unquote counts and machine what is available. I think this is the only sensible way to define what is a ballot and what is the role of the EVM and I will say again repeat. EVM now is a counting come printing machine. It's no longer the ballot that is the EVM. But therefore the demand that the paper ballot be counted I think it's a legitimate one which the parties are making and I think the election commission is airing by standing on its prestige and not declaring a procedure as Rahul is saying. If this is the difference we'll do this. This is the legal position that we see of now instead of which they are really saying we believe the VVPAT we are doing under duress we don't really want it and EVM is enough and all this thing is really for sure and satisfying some disgruntled people. I think election commission needs to take a statesman like view of this scenario. The fact is it's standing on too high a moral ground. I wouldn't call it a moral ground. You wouldn't call it a moral ground? As much as not understanding that you know it's a question of not having just a fair election but people seeing that it's a fair election and I think that's the part which the election commission is. You are not only fair you are seen to be fair. In fact as somebody has said, a very famous security expert has said the purpose of counting in an election to find out who has won and other is to convince the loser that is really lost. And I would say I have a third purpose here to convince the electorate that their mandate has been really justly expressed. Would you like to add to what Praveer has said? No I think he has expressed it correctly. However the one thing which the election commission has not really spelled out and also in this court judgments you don't understand what do you mean by tampering? So for example nowadays we hear about these electronic voting machines in trucks. Exactly I'm glad you are mentioning this because there have been literally dozens of these episodes these days a lot of people have smartphones they are actually shorted these EVMs being packed in private vehicles there have been candidates who have been protesting outside the strong rooms you have even RTI applications right to information which says that Bharat Electronic Limited and Electronic Corporation of India Limited have all together supplied something in the region of 40 lakh EVMs but you can account for only 20 and the election commission saying no there is no discrepancy there are things which have been kept in reserve etc etc at the end of the day there seems to be a huge credibility issue and I'll take half a minute more we have even the former president of India Pradam Mukherjee saying he is concerned at reports of alleged tampering of voters verdict and the safety and security of electronic voting machines which are in the custody of the election commission of India is the responsibility of the commission and there can be no room for speculation the challenge the very basis of our democracy etc etc etc and he goes on to say that it is his considered opinion that it is the workmen who decide how the institutional tools perform and the owners of ensuring institutional integrity lies with the election commission of India so at the end of the day it's a credibility issue yes yes so you know so when suppose one of these machines which are outside now has been tampered with somebody has just gone and voted for a particular party and now it finds itself inside ok then but there is a there is a VVPAD trails which are there so then clearly there will be a mismatch between the two numbers right so the point which I was trying to make is that neither the election commission unfortunately neither the opposition parties expelled out what is tampering you know so that the supreme court to take to you know the election commission saying that our electronic machines are infallible completely true they're infallible let's suppose but what prevents me to take another electronic machine and replacing it that is a fear today that a lot of people are expressing you know there was this huge debate about whether EVMs can be hacked and there were all kinds of demonstrations done inside the Delhi assembly a particular person who happens to be an advisor to Mr. Chandrababu Naidu the chief minister of he election commission said no we can't have him there he's stolen a machine etc etc I would like to interrupt you on this issue I think there are two separate issues because they were saying that the EVM could be hacked remotely and that I think is very very unlikely nothing is impossible in the world but it seems to be very very unlikely you have to change the hardware you have to essentially change the hardware without that you cannot remotely hack the machine the other part I will say there is a responsibility of the election commission of course as Pradam Mukherjee has said primary responsibility of the election commission I think it's good that we are raising all these issues because a subsidiary responsibility also belongs in this particular case to the opposition parties there is a procedure laid down and that procedure involves the opposition parties they must also exercise the due vigilance and that due vigilance means also knowledge of the procedures and that I think is an important issue that we now need to educate all the opposition parties that they have a role to play in protecting the EVM from tampering and what Rahul was saying and maybe we can conclude our discussion at this point it's not an issue now of hacking tampering manipulation new style boot capturing where you sort of buy everybody or intimidate everybody and start pressing buttons it's a question of the allegation being made you are actually going to swap EVMs which are supposed to be in the strong room they are supposed to be always they are supposed to be till the from the time the voting ends till the time the votes are counted they are supposed to be 24 hours being protected under by the police authorities by the paramilitary authorities etc but the questions are today being raised as to I mean the doubts are being raised across by political parties of course and by sections of civil society about the integrity of the entire process yes Right and well a detailed study actually would involve if you want to have a real detailed study which the election commission I think should have is that in a particular locality let's say how have the votes changed over the last few elections because the changes would be minimal and you can therefore actually What do you mean by votes changing? You know so for example you know if there are three parties you know one would get 10% the other gets you know 40% the other gets 60% let's suppose or 50% to make it 100% Now the next election it will be changes because you know most of us are quite rigid about which party we want to vote for and the changes are not as sharp normally One could contest your claim but anyway move on but if in one particular boot or one particular constituency the swing is enormous just in one particular thing then I think it should raise an alarm and we should see whether this is for a long term study of the election processes we should see whether you know for example if there are let's say 100 electronic EVM machines and you look at the one which party A let's say got the maximum in which electronic voting machine and which party A got the minimum and you see that ok if there are only 100 voting machines if there are only 5 of these or let's say 20 of these where the party which won has got a lot of votes and in the way we change unusual changes those need to be double checked double verified Exactly So per elect per EVM unfortunately I don't know whether the electronic where the election commission of India actually keeps it per EVM Do the booths change A and also the numbers No per election the booth you know you have an EVM numbered for a particular I think that information is supposed to be there Exactly Now actually some changes even then takes place in terms of shifting of the people from here to be and even the geographical location of the booths can change but roughly yes if we see sharp changes in some not others there will be questions and therefore checking those would make sense but I would like to really conclude on a different note I'll say you know it's not that the election commission suddenly is coming under question mark only because of the EVM said VVPATs the elections commission's unfortunately credibility in this election has been relatively lower The count of a variety of factors including one member dissenting and complaining that his dissension was not being recorded management of assembly elections if you remember two years ago so no questions from a long time We have already raised not we but people have already raised questions regarding the shall we say neutrality of this election commission particularly the way they have treated as you said with various complaints that have come particularly the manner the speed etc all of these so it is with that lower credibility that these questions this kind of shall we say what you said videos pictures and all of this then create the uncertainty that the electorate has and the parties Before I conclude I'd like both of you to very briefly summarize what according to you are the most important changes that we need to make in the rules in the procedures that what the election commission needs to do to improve its credibility and therefore improve the credibility of the entire democratic process in what is supposed to be the world's largest democracy Rahul and that probably I think first of all they should be a completely laid down procedure of what happens if a VVPAT count doesn't match the electronic count that should be a completely laid down decision to be done after that I think that's one of the most important thing and then after that this entire discussions of the 14-20 lakh missing EVMs allegedly missing as we know it could just be that the order was what 40 lakhs because they wanted to make money for 20 lakhs but that's also those are there you can say I've kept half as a standby so those have to also protect it I don't understand how an EVM an EVM is like this indelible link it's only made by one company both public sector and it's impossible to get for me to make one in my backyard so this EVM is easier to make a fake currency note or something Praveen let's have the last word I think it's very clear that there is still very much grace in what the election commission has decided it doesn't lay to rest the doubts that people have so one part Rahul is saying is absolutely right that they should be laid down procedure I think the second part of it if any party contests the verdict of the EVMs then they have the right to ask the election commission to match and that right cannot be taken away saying it's a discretion of the election commission in this case I think between a certain gap certainly there is no question that they should be matched to the VVPAT but I think beyond that for the credibility of the elections if the losing candidates candidate or candidates ask for a recount with the VVPAT matching of the EVMs I think it should be a right for them to do so and this I think is the basic change that I think we will have to wait and watch and see whether these changes are actually made by the election commission of India thank you Praveen, thank you Rahul time alone will tell whether Nedwajan Saddan is going to change whether it's going to do all some of the suggestions that have been put forward by our experts here to improve the credibility of the election process in the world's largest democracy thank you for being with us keep watching news click