 Hello and welcome to the Runlet and Bold Archie Report. In the last few months, we've had some really big people on our show. We've had Senator George Mitchell, we've had Secretary of Defense Bill Cohen, we've had B.B. Buil, and we've had Gianni Russo. Well, in our mob theme, which we've enjoyed in the last year or so, tonight we have somebody really big. If you watch Netflix, one of the top shows on Netflix, right now it's called Get Gardy. It's all about John Gardy, who was one of the most famous mobsters of all time. And with us tonight is a gentleman who was on that show, featured huge in that show. And his father was also a member of that family. My only hope is that our show is good enough to be used on his podcast. I hope we pass the audition. Rob, tell us who our guest is. Well, I'm very pleased to introduce our very special guest, Anthony Ruggiano. Anthony, welcome via Zoom. We're here in Portland, Maine. And we're gonna take some time with Anthony today to talk about his life, the good, the bad, and the ugly, and what he's doing now, and how he's turned his life around. We've had a number of former mobsters on our show. We've had John Elite. We've had Bobby Luizzi, Paul Tanzo. I don't know if I'd count Gianni Ruzzo. I was gonna say Gianni's kind of on the front. Kind of in the middle there. But a real former mafioso, Anthony Ruggiano, who grew up in the family with, your dad was in the mafia. Can you, Anthony, tell us a little bit about your life, your dad growing up in New York and how you got to be a made man. You know, so when I was a kid, you know, I always knew something was different about my father than my friends' fathers. Or even my uncles for that matter. You know, when I used to go to my cousin's houses, I always knew there was something different about him. Just by the way, people interacted with him. And when he would take people with him out, you know, when he walked in a room like the atmosphere would change. And I always felt that something was different, but I never knew what it was. You know, I put my finger on it because I was a kid. And even when I went to school, which I talk about this a lot, even when I went to school and, you know, the teacher would say, tomorrow we're gonna discuss your family school for a living. Well, back then only most of the households, just the fathers worked and the mothers stood home when I was a kid in the 60s and 50s. Not like today, everybody has to go to work. So, and I would go home and I would tell my father that I need to know what you do for a living because we're gonna discuss it tomorrow. And he would tell me he worked for a dry cleaners because he had some guy with him that owned dry cleaners and he was on the books with them. I found this out later. So, but I knew that wasn't true. And, but I rolled with it anyway. I would go to school the next day and I would tell the teacher my father works in a dry cleaners. And I knew, I knew that wasn't true but I didn't know what the truth was. But I knew that wasn't it. And I, but I said it anyway. And then when I branched off my block, because back then in New York, we all hung out on our block. We played stick ball and all that on our block. When I became a teenager, by the 12th or 13th, I drifted off the block into the neighborhood and I started hanging out by this pizzeria on a hundred and a first Avenue. And when I would walk up to the corner, the older kids would, I would hear them whispering going, that's probably Andy's son. And that's when I started to learn and figure out what and who my father was. Anthony, that description reminds me a lot of the beginning of the Bronx. Exactly. By the Chattis Pellimentary and the little boys running around and you live that life. You mentioned the stick ball. One of the things that Rob is going down that road is that once you realize, how old were you when you realized my dad is an organized crime? How old were you actually understood that? My very early teens. So now when I started hanging out in the neighborhood, my father started taking me to, it was a lot of social clubs and I was all part like the Burger Hut Fish Club where John Gotti hung out. This guy, Cyril Perron, he was a captain with the Genevieve family. He had a club and all these wise guys had clubs in my neighborhood. And my father started bringing me to these clubs and introducing me to these people saying, this is my son if you see him in the neighborhood. Because he didn't want them to hurt me if I did anything wrong and he wanted them to know who I was to look out for me. So that's when I started figuring things out. And then when I, through older guys, and then when I was about 15, there was some articles in the newspaper about him. And then I started getting in trouble on my own. And actually when I was 16, so there was an article. He got arrested. He got a diaper on his big book making case in Brooklyn and it was on the front page of the daily news. And I went home that day and my kid brother didn't know anything. And he said to me, did you read the newspaper? Is that true about daddy? And I said, yeah. And my father was, he used to come to all our Little League games. He was like a normal dad in the house. Took us to the Yankee games, took us to the fights. He loved boxing. We went to see all the boxing matches. He went to all my brother's Little League games. And I went upstairs and I knew then who he was. And my father said that Albert read the newspaper and I said, yeah. And we went downstairs and my father said to Albert, do you want me to still come to your baseball game? And my brother goes, yeah, of course I do. And we went to the game that night and all the fathers, nobody knew who my father was. They just thought he was a Little League dad. But when, so when he got out of the car and we went up to the grandstand, all these fathers like Thumb Rush, Carl Andy, my God, we didn't know and they were all up his ass. And later on in years, he actually got a couple of their sons into the car with his union and everything. So that's how I learned through that experience, through the neighborhood. And then when I was 16, I got suspended from school. I was a truant. I didn't like school. I was a bad student. And he sat me down with my uncle, his older brother Frank. We sat down in my kitchen and he wanted to get me a job in the Brooklays Union. And I told him, I don't want to work in the fucking Brooklays Union. And I was only 16 and he looked at me and he goes, well, what do you want to do? I said, I want to work for you. And he just looked at me and he looked at me and he tapped onto the table with his finger and he went, well, if you want to work for you, remember. Wanted jail was all part of the fucking job. And now here I am 16 and I was raised in that life. That's all I knew my whole life because he became a made member the same year I was born in 1953. And he was made by Albert Anastasia in 1953. He was only 26 years old. That picture and behind me, he was 26 years old in that picture and he put me to work the next day. He took me to this club in on Merrick Road in Long Island. This guy Philly the Pimp owned it. That was his nickname. I don't know if he was a Pimp or not. That was his nickname. And he had a blackjack game. And that was my first leading job. I worked in the blackjack game. Anthony, I know that you were born in 53. I was about to ask that. But what I want to know is what was the first crime, major crime that you committed and at what age did you commit that crime? The first major crime I committed, I was 21 years old. We robbed a liquor warehouse. We rented an empty store next to this big warehouse. And we went through the wall and we emptied out all the cases of liquor and we were loading them up on a truck and we were arrested. And I went to trial and I got convicted. And that was the first time I went to prison. I got a five-year sentence and I turned myself in when I was 24 years old. And I went to prison for two and a half years. So you got a five-year sentence on a first offense? First felony offense, yeah. So you had a record before that for those small things? Yeah, I had assault cases. I got arrested for possession. I had for drugs, possession of narcotics. But there was all dismissed and fines. I paid fines. I got arrested for an assault with a deadly weapon. That was dismissed because the person that got hit with the back didn't show up in court. So they dismissed the charges. But the first time I went to trial and got convicted was when I was 21 years old. How long was the jury out? Not long. The jury was out maybe about six hours. So we almost beat the case today. That's actually six hours. Six hours is a long time. Yeah, about six hours. Yeah, go ahead, Rob. Yeah, Anthony, at what point did you become a made man? And get straightened? So what happened was when I was proposed, when I got out of prison, they proposed me. So what that means is they passed around your name to all the other families to see if anybody has anything bad to say about you and to get approval. So my name was passed around and I was approved. So I was sent for by this captain called Lenny DeMaria. And in the Gambino family, he told me, listen, your name got passed around. Everything's approved. They gave me permission to represent myself to go and sit down. So I had the okay to present myself as a made member, but they just didn't have the official ceremony yet. They were going to have it in a few weeks from that day. But a week later, I was arrested for murder. And I never really, and we never had the ceremony, but I was a proposed member and I had permission to go on sit downs at that point in time. I didn't need any representation. So what happened after you, Anthony, what happened after you were accused of murder? Yeah, right. Well, what happened was so I got out of prison, I got out of prison in 2004. I just finished the way in eight years sentence. Where did you serve that prison sentence? Well, I start with, okay. So I got indicted for bookmaking, which is legal now, sports betting, everything's legal now. I got indicted in 95 on a big bookmaking case in New York by the New York state organized crime test force. So I took a plea. I got a two to four. While I was in New York state custody, serving that sentence, I was indicted by the feds in Broward County, Florida, what Nikki Karaza, who was the acting boss of the Gambino family at the time. And I got indicted on a case of Florida, the marshals took me to Florida and I took a plea and I got 10 years. So I did. So between New York state and the feds, I was in school kill for the last five years. I did eight years in three months. I got out in old four. And a year later, I got indicted for another recall with a murder predicate for gambling and murder. I was actually sitting in front of my son's house. I mean, I was working. I was driving the truck. I was waiting for the ceremony to get straightened out because I had a conversation with Lenny de Maria and I was sitting on a park bench relaxing with my eyes because the next thing I hear, I don't move you fucking scumbag and I opened up my eyes and his a gun in my nose and I was surrounded by FBI agents and they arrested me. Wow. Anthony got two points first of all, sounds to me like you should have had some better lawyers but the other point is that while you say that bookmaking is certainly illegal, they haven't made murder legal yet. Definitely not. Go ahead Rob. No, so obviously we all know that you were in the recent Netflix show Get Gaudy, terrific job, great, great show, highly recommended, absolutely, well done. Tell us about John Gaudy. When was the first time you met him, Anthony? And what was it like to be around him? Because from us up here in Maine, we'd see him on TV. We'd see him in the magazines and newspapers. He was bigger than life. And the thing I want you to hit on is the fact that he was so revered because he was good looking and dressed good and looked like a movie star or he was a mean and a bad man. So go ahead, tell us how you met him. So the first time I met him, I was 13 years old. Like I said, when I drifted off my block into the neighborhood and my father took me around to meet all these people, for there was this wise guy, Charlie Wagons. He's actually the main member of the mafia that proposed my father, that straightened out my father. He's actually the same member that proposed John Gaudy. John Gaudy and my father were made by the same member, Charlie Wagons. They were both proposed by Charlie. So I already knew Charlie from all my life through my father. So him I knew. And my father took me to Charlie's Club, which was at the time the Bergen Fish Club. And that's where I met John Gaudy and Angelo Quack-Quack and all of them. And that was the beginning of my relationship with John. I would see him in the neighborhood. He was always sharp. He wasn't even straightened out then. He was just a young man, he was just in the street. And we became friends. I would see him in the neighborhood. Then when I turned 16 and I started working for my father, then I would see him by the Ravenite. I would see him in the crack games. I would see him all the time in the racetrack. He used to go to the racetrack every day until he got bought out. And he always had charisma. People were always attracted to him. And I talk about this a lot. My father told me when I was a kid, he said, he had a prediction. He goes, only three things are gonna happen to John Gaudy. He said, either he's gonna become the boss, he's gonna get shot in the head or he's gonna get 1,000 years in prison. And two out of those three things came true. So Anthony, you were talking about Gaudy, larger than life in your many, many connections with him over the years. Do you feel that his notoriety went beyond what you were taught and what you learned through your father and others that you don't talk to anybody about what you're doing, the mafia, the ometta, you know, your lips are sealed. You don't blast out the fact. Gaudy was the opposite. He was out there on the newspapers for page news. How do you feel about that? Do you think that helped to contribute a downfall of? My father and Tony Lee's father, they were old-timers. They didn't care for it. I mean, I was actually in John's company when he became the boss. And I actually saw him sign autographs. I mean, and when I went to visit my own man, my father in prison was Tony Lee. And, you know, he was, how could he do that? I mean, they didn't care for it. You know, people say he brought the mob down. I mean, in reality, the Rico Statue brought the mob down. They started with dying us for Rico's and put us away forever. That's what he did. He brought heat on us, the flash, the pizzazz. He brought heat on us. We paid the price for that. Like me, I was a nobody. And every time I got arrested, every time I had to take a plea or got convicted, I got the most time on the case. And I went to the worst prisons because first of all, I was Friday in the sun and I was hooked up with John Gotti. So that's the price I pay for it. Do people like getting their pictures in the papers? I mean, they would say no, but I believe a lot of guys enjoyed it. I mean, I don't know why it's a sick, it's not healthy, it's not good. But yeah, he brought a lot of heat on us. But he was just that type of guy. He was just a defiant guy. Like he defied the government. And he believed, he wanted none of us to hide. Like he put everybody on front street because he just believed, like fuck them. And I loved being in his company. I mean, when I went out, it was like being with a celebrity. I mean, we went to clubs. The girls would throw themselves at us because it was like walking in with an Academy Award winner. So I was only, I was young. I loved it. I loved being in his company. And he always looked out for me. I say this all the time, when people always ask me, like they sort of try to get me to bad mouth them or talk bad about them. But I have nothing bad to say. The guy always treated me well. He always treated my family well. I mean, for some reason, him and I had this relationship. I think because I went to prison when I was a kid, I was only 23 when I went to jail the first time. And we were both Scorpios for some reason. He liked that. And he always looked out for me. Actually, in 1988, when I went to treatment, I went to treatment because I had a problem with cocaine. And when I got out of treatment, I went to see him. And he actually asked me what I needed. And I needed, I had no car at the time. And I said, I don't have a car. And he actually sent me to a car dealership and got me a car. I mean, that was the extent of my relationship with him, how much he looked out for me. Anthony, I do like the comment from time to time in some of the things you've said. First of all, we began the conversation when I tell you I was very good friends with Bobby Rydell, whose name was Robert Ritterelli. And I, too, used to like hanging around with him because people wanted to come up and meet him. However, Bobby was not a murderer. He was a rockstar. And the other thing is, when you mentioned about hanging around with him and how women were coming up to him and so on and so forth, would that have been one of the primary attractions for you folks in the mafia, that women and money and mincotes and all that stuff, was that what attracted you to it? No, I think that's part of it. What attracted me to it was the power, was the respect. The power and respect. Like people like my father got. That's what attracted me to it. It fed my ego. I could only speak to myself. I never waited online to get into a club in Manhattan. I mean, I would open the studio, 54, I opened the Ritz, the Copa Cabana, just like the Goodfellas. I went into the basement up through the kitchen. So, I mean, the power, the respect you got is what attracted me. And of course, the money. I mean, the money, we will make a money, crazy amounts of money. Right, I'm gonna interrupt you, Anthony, because you got to stream a consciousness score in here, but like money, like how much money would you be making in a year around then? And I know a studio 54, what year it was, and I'm gonna ask you about that. How much money would you be making in a year? Oh my God, my father would make, create hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. My father was making, you know, I was made, I worked, like I had a, so I worked in a crop game, right? We had crop games. I would get paid, back then I would get paid $300, $400 a day in 1972. So, a lot of money. The money kept on rolling in. My father was doing scores. There were hijacking trucks out of Kennedy Airport. I mean, money was just coming in. It was, who knows the number? I mean, Michael Francis was making $8 million a week with a guest, you know, in guest tax money. Correct. A lot of people were making crazy money. Anthony, $8 million a week? Yes. That's correct. Yes. I know that story. You mentioned, somebody mentioned in the Get Garde series that you folks literally quote, owned New York. You ran the construction business. You had the so and so forth, the numbers game, the prostitution, everything was going on, the drugs. Is it true that as portrayed in the Godfather movie, the original Godfather movie, is it true that some of the dawns resisted dealing in drugs and heroin and all that stuff? Is that a true fact? Yes, very true. Paul Castellano was one of them. That was his demise. That's right. Listen, a lot of guys were dealing drugs on the down low, especially the Godfather crew. They were all major heroin traffickers. You know, Mark Ryder, Sally Quack-Quack, they were all major heroin dealers that were around John Arnold Squattery. I mean, I couldn't go on and on and on of Charlie Wingy. I mean, I could claim 10 guys that were major heroin traffickers all on the down low. They were making crazy amounts of money. And guys like Carmine Persico, I mean, Carmine Persico, he was a captain in Florida named Johnny Ivers. They were dealing drugs. He disappeared. Paul Castellano wanted the tapes. That was his demise. Because John and them weren't going to give up the tapes because he wanted that would have been John's demise. So Paul got killed all over heroin, all over tapes, all over guys. Paul again, you know, is the one that started that. He put the kibosh to people dealing drugs. Rob, but I do want to, you mentioned the name that is familiar to me. It's not the same man. You said, did you say Charlie Ingui ING-UI? No, Charlie Wingy. Charlie Wingy. That was his nickname. Well, okay. Because the song Express Way to Your Heart by the Soul Survivors is done by a dear friend of mine, Charlie Ingui, his brother Richie. And Charlie actually texted me last night, I want to make clear to the audience that that man was not on the lobster. No, it's not him. No, I know that group was one of that group. It's funny you mentioned that group. Because you know, Jeremiah, Ali Jeremiah's brother was in that group. Because he comes with those on par. One of the Soul Survivors. It's well connected here, buddy. When I met Charlie and his brother, we went to dinner and I said, we're gonna order Francis Ford couple of wine. And what do you guys do when you're not singing? Breaking up legs or something. Anyway, Charlie's a dear friend. I could go on forever. One thing is, how often would you go to Studio 54? Well, I went to studio, so when I came out of prison in 1980, there was two major clubs in Manhattan. With Studio 54 was uptown. There was this rock club called the Ritz downtown. Now today it's Webster Hall. So I was more in the Ritz than Studio 54, but I would go to Studio 54 at least twice a month. I would say maybe three times a month. You know, I knew Steve Rebelle. He was a friend of mine later on. Him and I had a little disagreement there. After he got out of prison, we had a little disagreement him and I and we stopped talking to each other. Before he went to prison, we were friends and I would go there. But I basically hung out in the Ritz because Stanley London, he was the owner. He was very good friends with us. He was around this guy called Matty the Horse who was a big guy with the Genoveses. And we had a really good relationship. And so the celebrities back then, there was certain nights of the week they would go to certain clubs. And on Thursday night was the night they all went to the Ritz because upstairs was all VIP roped off tables and my brother and I always had a table upstairs. And who were- Yeah, right, what people? Yeah, who were some of the people that would show up with the- In the Ritz? Yeah. I only give Andy Warhol, Keith Richards, Diana Summers sat at my table one night. Diana Ross. Tina Turner, I mean, you named them. They were there. David Bowie, I mean, I drank it. David Bowie would come there. Mick Jagger was in there. Whoever used to go to the studio, 54, would come to the Ritz on certain nights. I'm in there one night. I was in there one night at my table and the owner came over and he said, listen, I just got a call from Diana Ross. I have no tables empty because she sit at your table. And I said, of course. And Diana Ross came with Gene Simmons and sat at my table. Who kills? She was dating Gene, because Gene Simmons back then dated heart and then share or maybe share and then her, I don't know, but he was dating both of them. And they both, and Gene Simmons sat right next to me. And I'll never forget, he ordered a club soda and she ordered a beer. No kidding. Was there any of those people that you didn't like, any of those styles that were arrogant or whatever, or did you like, were they all friendly to you? No, I had a little argument one night and they were Frank Zappler. Was Zappler? Yeah, Frank Zappler, yeah. So he was in there and the owner came up to me and we were in the back and the VIP had another private room and I was in the room and he was in there and I went in there and Stanley introduced me to him and he invited me over to his table. So I went over to his table and he just did something that I don't know. And I said something nasty to him and we had some words and he went to Stanley, London, the owner and told him I co-starred him and it was just a little thing. So me and Frank Zappler didn't see eye to eye. Well, and Zappler's also an Italian too, so, but a tough guy, yeah, just a little, just a little. Just while you're talking about some of these people in the clubs and the connection between some of the celebrities, movie stars, rock and roll icons that you've mentioned and organized crime, did you see the connection like growing up, I know your dad and you were friends with Frankie Valley, with all of the old time rockers. That's a great question, yeah, that's a great question. What kind of connection did you see between some of these guys and organized crime? I think the celebrities like hanging out with organized crime members. Yeah. I mean, we, they, Sweden, it was like, we didn't see them out, they sort after us. We didn't, like, I didn't walk into the Ritz or walk into Jilly's with my father and Frank Sinatra would be sitting at a table and I would go, oh my God, there's Frank Sinatra. Let's go sit with him. You know, we would go to the bar and then Frank Sinatra would send, somebody would say, would just like to come sit, you know, have a drink and then he would invite us over, you know, like they wanted to sit, he wanted to sit with us. Like I'll give you a, for instance, Frank Sinatra, okay, Frank Sinatra used to hang out in Jilly's when he was in New York. Sure. My father was very good friends with Jilly and his partner, Tony Lee. They would go in there and Sinatra would be there. And Sinatra would invite my father over to the table and my father would respectfully decline, saying, no, that's okay. And he wouldn't go, one night I asked my father, why don't you want to sit with this guy? And this was what my father's answer, he goes, because listen, he's a bad drinker. And I heard that he gets drunk sometimes and he abuses wise guys and they don't do nothing. He goes, if he abuses me, I'm gonna knock him off the chair and then I'm gonna have an issue. So he wouldn't sit with him. A little later on, he was in Jilly's, they went to the Copa one night and after the Copa they went to Jilly's and my mother was with him. My mother, my brother and his girlfriend, my cousin Joey and his girlfriend and they went to Jilly's and Sinatra was there. And he invited my father over to the table and my mother wanted to go sit there. Of course. Because he was Frank Sinatra. Sure. To appease my mother, he went and sat with Sinatra and hung out with Sinatra and they became friends. And later on, he actually put Jay Black, the last movie that's not your main contract on, right, the last movie Sinatra made contract on Cherry Street, Jay was in the movie and Jay killed Sinatra at the end. That's how the movie ended. That's Sinatra's last role. Wow. Anthony, by the way, that story was fantastic. Yes. What was the name of the movie? Contract on Cherry Street. Okay. Cause I've- Are you familiar with the dairy? Yes. And I've met the new Jay and the Americans. There's been three J's. You're talking about the original. Jay Black. Jay Black. Who passed away. I'm talking about the best one. No, the best of course. The best of course. The voice. All the hits. The call him the voice. The voice. Anthony, all the hits from Jay and the Americans came from Jay Black, a wonderful man. That was a fascinating story. So I think Rob, what Rob was getting to was, do you think there was any official connection? For example, Raidell did not have any connections to that business. But he was friends with him. Right. He was friends with him. There you go. But in terms of, was there any official- Right. Yes. To answer your question, yes. There was absolutely people. Sinatra was on record with Chicago. He was directly with the Chicago crew. Jay Black was on record with Fat Andy. Frankie Valley was on record with wise guys from New Jersey. So there was always an affiliation between the mob and the entertainment industry because first of all, they ran the unions. You've got to, people have to understand. The mob had it, first of all, the mob owned all the night clubs. So back in the fifties and forties and fifties and sixties, where were these people going to make money? Where were they going to entertain? They owned Vegas. The mob owned Vegas. They owned the Culver. They owned the, every night club, name a night club, the mob owned it. So these people had to do business with the mob. You walked in my house, Louis Prima used to come over my house for Sunday dinner. Wow. Frankie Valley used to come over my house. Frankie Valley would call my father up, and ask my father to make pasta for Zulfa. I mean, you know. Pasta, just like pasta. Do you still have, Anthony, do you still have some of those recipes? Yeah. If you do. You know, it's funny that you asked that, because my father, we used to ask him like how he made things and what he put in it. And he used to go like this with his finger. Used to say he started with his finger. So, but I know, yeah, I know some tricks he used, but I don't have anything written down, but I have basically know how he made certain dishes. So, I met Frankie Valley just very briefly when he came to Maine, by the way, he appeared for the Malt Shop cruise in Puerto Rico. I think the fee was a hundred grand. But then even, did you like Frankie Valley? Did you like him? Oh, I loved Frankie Valley. Yeah, no, he treated me really well. He loved my mother. He would, you know, he would come to the front of the stage and tell my mother, this one's for you, Jenny, you sing to my mother. Wow. No, he was a great guy. My father really cared about him. He would come to my house and have dinner and I would meet him and, you know, take, he would take me with him to shows. No, I had a great time with them. And I was young, he was a really good guy and he really, really was close to my parents. He really liked my parents. He was a good guy. Go ahead. Anthony, yeah, just, Anthony, and you understand that Bobby Rydell, who was featured in the movie, The Green Book, they opened with Bobby Rydell at the Copa. At the Copa, yeah. And Bobby, indeed, was the youngest performer ever to be at the Copa. Did you ever see Bobby at the Copa? No, I never saw Bobby. I saw Bobby Darin at the Copa. You saw Bobby Darin? Did you get to meet Bobby Darin? I'll tell you, I could tell you a little story about Bobby Darin. Yeah, please, please do, please do. So my sister is graduating from eighth grade. Bobby Darin was appearing at the Copa that weekend. So we all go, I have pictures of the, I have pictures from that night at the Copa. So we go to the Copa and we see the show. He's phenomenal. Bobby Darin is in person, phenomenal. Played every instrument. I mean, he was dynamite in person. Bobby Darin, rated to Dana. So a lot of times after the show, when I went to the Copa, we would go upstairs to the lounge in Carmine. He was the head guy. He ran the Copa for Julius Spaddow. He would bring over the entertainers to meet us. Like Don Rickles, they brought Don Rickles over one night to meet my father. And he was pinching my cheek, Don Rickles. So my father wanted Bobby Darin to meet my sister. So after the show, we went upstairs to the lounge and Bobby Darin never showed up. So Carmine came over and he was kind of nervous and he says to my father, he goes, Andy, listen, this guy left. He goes, he left and he know we were waiting and he says, yeah, but he left. So we left the Copa. The next night, my old man comes home. He tells my sister, now my sister's a kid to get dressed. And I say, where you going? He goes, I'm taking your sister to the Copa. I said, oh, am I coming? It was no, just how and I are going. He took my sister back to the Copa. That night, my sister came home with albums, pictures, autographs, Bobby Darin showed up the next night. That's crazy. Anthony, I got to tell you something. I knew we were going to talk about them all, but I love talking about these celebrities. I mean, that story, and I got to tell you what I enjoy most about you and Gianni Russo and Elite is that I tell people their stories are real and they're credible. Right. The way you tell them, you don't embellish them. No. Because you could have said, I went to the, I saw Bobby Darin and he put, and you talk about Don Rickles, one of the greatest comedians of all time. I'm just enjoying this show so much. Yes. Oh, you have it. He was great when he came. So after we saw Jay Black. So what happened was Jay wanted to go. My father didn't want to go see Don Rickles because of how he abuses everybody. That's right. That's right. So Jay Black and his wife Kathy, they wanted to see him. And I wanted to see him with my wife, Alice. So my father gave in and said, okay, we'll go. So we go. So we sat in the copa. We didn't sit in the front. We sat in the back room on the rail. So he couldn't really get to us with his abuse. You know, like, you know what I mean? So he put on it. He was hysterical. He was great. Then we go upstairs to the lounge and Carmine brings him over and he had a broke coat on Don Rickles. And he walks over and my father says, what do you want to drink? And he goes, whatever you want. And he goes, whatever you're having on. And it was just a great night. And then he introduced himself to Jay. I mean, he liked Jay's music, you know? And then it was just, he was pinching my cheek and he was scooping on his broke coat and all that stuff. It was just, you know, and that, you know, getting back to them up. So you see that, that's how I got caught up in that life too. Of course. You've got to understand. I don't know any of my early 20s. And I'm, you know, this is my life. And you know, you think it's never going to end and you don't see the dark side of it. I didn't see the dark side of it yet. You know, but later on, you know, go into prison, you know, have an issue with drugs. You know, you know, then the doctor said it, you know. And we'll talk, we want to talk about that too. I wanted to ask you some questions involving your connection with Goddy and the Gambino crime family and your dad. Sammy the Bull Gravano. Yes. What's your impression of Sammy? Do you consider him a rat? I know we've had John lead on our show. And John, you know, obviously worked with Gravano, doesn't have a lot of respect for him. Had, John has tremendous respect for Goddy as a standup guy, wouldn't rat. But he said he doesn't have a lot of regard for Gravano because he ratted out his boss. John cooperated. I love John, like he's a very gift friend of mine. My brother was, absolutely, my brother was his literally coach. Oh, really? So that's right. He mentioned that. He mentioned that. My brother was literally coached. And I cooperated, Sammy cooperated. All I could say is I have a great relationship with Sammy. I always did before when I was in the street, when he was the under boss. And right now, you know, I just went out to Arizona a couple of months back. I did his show. I got, you know, it really worked out well for me. And as a matter of fact, I just spoke to him yesterday on the phone. So my relationship with Sammy is different than John's. John had other issues with Sammy that I didn't have over money or whatever. I don't have those issues. Sammy and I have a good relationship. He cooperated. I cooperated, you know. So we're both in the same boat, actually. But I have a good relationship with Sammy. We get along well. Unfortunately, John does it, which I wish he did, but he doesn't. But I, you know, I'm working on other things to do with Sammy. So my relationship with Sammy is good. Excellent, excellent. Thank you, Rob, for that one. And you mentioned John, who by the way, some of the people that watch our show have said to us, it sounds like you're glorifying the mob and so on and so forth on my responses. No, the casino movie did. Godfather trilogy did. You were part of the American culture. That's what that's the way it was. Exactly. But, and you mentioned John, who I, he came to Maine. By the way, I'm not gonna say this to you, but when John finished his interview here, I took off my microphone and said, John, I don't think you're so tough. And he laughed and then he asked Rob and I to do a tribute, at least a video tribute for his birthday. But do you know Gianni Rousseau? Do you know Gianni, who's been on our show? I don't know him personally, no. But he knows who he is. But you know of him. I know, of course, yeah, I know who he is. And I just wanna ask you some questions that Gianni has brought up. Number one, you were around in the 60s, you were there. Do you agree with Gianni that the mob was involved in the murder of JFK? Yes, I do. And do you also believe, as he clearly pointed out, that Jack Ruby was absolutely ordered to go and kill Lea, of the Oswald? I think Jack Ruby was definitely part of a mob conspiracy to kill Oswald, without a doubt. The guy had terminal cancer when he shot Oswald. He did, okay. Those are the kind of answers, because I watched the show again about Oswald getting shot the other night. And it's amazing. So I'm gonna ask you a question that I wanted to ask Gianni. How did the Warren Commission come up with Oswald as the only guy? Why did they come up with that? Was it a whitewash? Yeah, whitewash. I think it was a whitewash. I think it was just a major conspiracy. I think not only the mob had the hands. Don't forget, you got to understand, the CIA and the mob, they wanted the mob to kill Castro. I mean, they were loaded cigars. I mean, the CIA worked hand in hand, even going back to World War II, they came to the US government, came to the mafia in New York to protect the docks. I mean, Lucky Luciano got out of prison. I mean, we could go back to the 40s and 50s. Lucky Luciano got deported because they agreed to help the government protect the docks. And the payoff was that they would let Lucky Luciano out of prison, but he had to get deported, which was fine with him because he was a multi-gazillionaire. He would live like a king in Italy and Cuba was 90 miles away from the United States. So it was a win-win. So the relationship with the mafia and the government goes back so many years. Later on, of course, the government went after us with Dorico and all that other stuff, but back in the day, no. And I always heard my old man used to tell me all the time that the reason why Kennedy got killed was first of all because of his father. Joe Kennedy was a criminal. He was an out-and-out bootlegger. He was partners with the mafia. He was partners with Frank Costello. He was. And when Kennedy was running for president, they went to the teamsters to get the teamsters back, Kennedy, and they did. Kennedy became president. He made his brother, attorney general, and they double-pressed everybody, which they did. Which is what Gianni had told us when- I've got to say to you, Anthony, I've said that to people. I said, little did they know, one of the biggest jockfakes was that JFK gets elected and who does he put for attorney general but his younger brother. And what's the first thing he do? I'm going after Hoffer and Bob and- He's going after the people that his father made- Right, right. And sent him in office. Exactly. So we're all in agreement with that, and yet it's, Rob, do you find it sometimes hard to convince people of that? So if you watch that, JFK will be- Some people don't want to hear it. They only go that road. Anthony, go ahead. My old man told me when I was a teenager, the real mafia was the government. He goes, he goes, that's the real mafia. He goes, he told me a story once. He told me, he goes, let me tell you about the founding fathers. He goes, one day in Philadelphia, John Adams and George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and all these guys were in a pub in Philadelphia, drinking beer. And one of them said to the other one, hey, why are we sending this English bastard all this money and we can keep it for ourselves? And they started a fucking revolution. He said, and then after that, they wrote the book on treachery. He said, and think about it. I mean, he may have had a point. Anthony, I gotta tell you something, buddy. We've had a lot of people at our shows, but you're the first one to malign the founding fathers. John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, the fathers of our country are no much more. And you're going after them. This is the last time you were appearing on this show. Anthony. I'm just saying, listen, that was his theory. They wanted to keep the money for themselves. So they started a revolution. That's funny as hell. Listen, we talked about it. We mentioned movies, The Godfather, Goodfellas. Actually, in Goodfellas, your dad is mentioned in Goodfellas, isn't he? Yes. One of the classic movies of all time, but do you have any favorites? Do you? I mean... Of course, I think Goodfellas was the best one. I mean, it's funny because when it first came out in the movie theater, you know, I went to see it with all my friends and our girlfriends, and I'm in the movie theater. And I knew Henry and all of them were good friends with us. I mean, I knew Paulie Valio since I was a little kid. I used to go to his house with Tony Lee and my father. So I knew all of them all my life. And Jimmy Brook, I dated his daughter, Kathy. I just went out of his house. I mean, I knew all of them. Hold on. Hold on. Derry's just... Listen, you dated his daughter? Kathy, yeah, we were best friends. I dated his daughter when we were kids, yeah. Yeah, Kathy Burke, yeah. She was a very, very good friend of mine. And his two sons, I knew Frankie and that got married in unfortunately, and Jesse. I knew... And he named his two sons after Frank and Jesse James. Oh, boy. Get out of here. Yeah. Yeah, his son's name was Frankie and Jesse after the James brothers. Jesse. But they've never heard that before. Yeah, that's the truth. So the Bronx Tale, Chess Parliamentary and De Niro... Yeah, I should go and ask about my personal... What's your favorite? My favorite fellows, Asino, Donnie Brasco, I like. They think that was really real. Brasco was good, wasn't it? Yeah, very good, yeah. Yeah, I mean, the Bronx Tale was on the money. I mean, you know, those are probably my favorites. The Sopranos, I mean, that was pretty much on the money. Outside of him going to see a psychologist, that would have never happened. They would have murdered him. Right. That's not going to happen. That a boss is going to go to a psychiatrist. Anthony, I got to tell you, in my living room is a giant poster signed by the Sopranos. I bought it in New Orleans. I just hang it in my living room because that was indeed... Over the possibly... It's just a classic, yeah. And what you're telling me, and I can't believe how you read my mind in this interview, that when I left the house, I go, I got to ask him how accurate was the Sopranos. And what you're telling me is that it was accurate, except for the fact that there's no way that James Gandalfi and Tony would have gone to a psychiatrist. Listen, the mob. Listen, I know the dark side of the mob. I knew my... We had a very dear friend of mine. He was a soldier. He was a wise guy in the Colombo family. He was good friends with my father and Tony Lee. I was good friends with his sons. And he, back then in the 70s, he had a nervous breakdown. Now, nobody knew like today there's a name just bipolar. There's all kinds of medication. Nobody knew. Back then he had a nervous breakdown and he went to a psych ward. And he got medicated, whatever he got out of the psych ward. And about a year later, he had another nervous breakdown. Legit. He went back into the psych ward and when he got out, he disappeared. Wow. My goodness. That's how the mob dealt with those kind of issues. So, when you talk about the Zopranos, that would have never happened. Maybe today it might. Of course, the mafia is a different scenario today, but back in the day, in the 60s and 70s, that would have never happened. Anthony, I wanna ask you one question that will sound like it's... Well, anyway, I'm gonna ask it. The concern that I've got about your activities, their activities, is that, yeah, they were killing each other and whatever and whatever. But do you have any estimate about the number of innocent people that might have gotten caught in the cross-wire, the waitress that's in the room, the people that are walking down the street when the bullets are flying? Do you have any estimate as to how many innocent people, just a ballpark estimate, people that had no extra ground, that were either injured... What, in New York? In New York? Or anywhere, New York, that were killed or injured because of the activities of the mafia? Probably hundreds. I mean, I don't have a number, but I know for a fact innocent people that got killed when hits took place. I mean, I know this guy, a friend of ours, Tony Clay, he was in the 70s, he disappeared, he showed up at a restaurant with an innocent bystander that drove him there and they both disappeared. So, unfortunately, that happens. That happens and it happened probably numerous times. People disappear and people getting killed, people being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I mean, it happened probably a lot of too many times. But to say a Pacific number, I don't know, but I know for sure it has happened many, many times. Well, that was my... Because when we see the movies, we see the bad guys shooting each other. But I wanna thank you for your honesty because what you said was a lot. And even one is too many. Right. And the one thing I'm gonna ask you, I know I'm charming and more, but... Go ahead. Do you have any solution to the massacres that are taking place in this country on a daily basis? Just happened here in Lewiston, Maine, the biggest one so far, 18 people killed by a gunman. Do you yourself have any suggestions as to how we stop this massacre? You know, it's mental... I mean, yeah, we have to, you know, it has to be done with mental health issues, guns, some kind of gun control. I mean, they're never gonna get rid of the guns in this country. Let's be realistic. I mean, the guns are never gonna... Well, let's modify it. Let's do... Do I think people need automatic weapons? No, I don't think they do. That's just my opinion. But I think they have to start with cleaning up. You know, like, there's a mental health issue in this country that's not being addressed. I mean, normal people don't get a gun and go kill 18 people. Something... Or where's the parents? Where's the family structure? I mean, when I was a kid, when I was a kid, you never heard of this happening. Never. Not like it and not like today. That's correct. It's suicide. Today, kids 14 years old, committing suicide. When I was 14, I didn't even know what suicide was. Yeah, that's true. Great answer, Anthony. Thank you so much. Go ahead, Rob. Yeah. You have spent your life being closely associated with the mafia. You've served time in jail. Now, your life today. Talk about your life today. Your organization, Reform Gangsters. What is that about? What are you trying to do with your life going forward here, Anthony? I'm trying to tell people that, listen, I lived in the beginning, it was glamorous, it was fun, it was action. And then it wasn't. And what came along with that was drug addiction, failed marriages, prison time. And I tell people, listen, guys like John Gotti and my father, Van Andy, their lives on with success stories, even get Gotti, as much of his smash shit as it was, and which it was, I wrote a thing on my Instagram and my Facebook that, listen, it was a great show, but it was about a tragedy because that man died handcuffed to a bed and along the way people lost their lives. Right. So it really, it wasn't a love story, it was a tragedy. And my message is that it's never too late to change. Listen, I changed my life in my 50s. It's never too late to change. Don't get lost by the glitter. You know, all that glitters isn't cold. And my message is that if I could change, you could change. I mean, I'm coming up in January, I'll be clean from drugs and alcohol for 35 years. Congratulations. I went back to school to become a counselor at 60 years old. You know, I had, listen, when I decided to get out of the mafia, I had no skills. My father didn't teach me how to use a tool. I had, I couldn't use a hammer. I don't, I don't know how to build anything. I don't know how to fix anything. I have, I don't know none of that. Do I know how to be a bookmaker and a Shylock and a distortionist and a violent criminal? I know how to do that really well, but I don't know how to change a flat. I mean, you know, I had no skills. I had, you know, I had my, I had no skills. So at six, so my life experience was my education that helped me become a counselor. And now today, because of all that shit I went through, now I could use that for something positive. And that's my message that it's never too late to change. And like that life may look pretty and it might look glamorous when you watch TV. But, you know, when you're in a visiting room and your little daughter and your son are crying because the visit ended and they're going, daddy, when are you coming home? You know, I'm getting emotional right now. Yeah. You know, is it, is it worth it then? No, no. Do you have, Anthony, do you have any children? How many children do you have? I have two children. I have a 40 year old son now and a 30 year old daughter and I miss him. The last, my son, the first 21 years of his life, he was, he grew up in visiting rooms. My father and myself were in prison the first 21 years of his life. My daughter, I went to prison when she was three and I got out when she was 11. My son was 13 the last time I went to prison. I got out, he was 21. They raided my house in 1995. The organized crime test was raided my house with a search bar. I was handcuffed on my couch and my daughter was in her diapers running around my house, asking me that I'm ripping my house apart, searching my house and my daughter's telling me, Daddy, are these your friends? Wow. You know, like, it's, you know, and that's what I want people to understand. This is the result of that life. Anthony, I've got to say to you, I was looking forward to this interview, but I did not realize I would enjoy it as much as I have. Your getting emotional at the end means you are, you are reformed. You served your time. And I say this to the camera. He served his time. Yes. As a lawyer, when you represent a client and they go to jail, they've served their time. I want to make one comment as we close here, my dear friend. And that is the picture behind you of your father and your mother when you said John Gotti had commissioned. I do want to tell you, it is the only portrait I have ever seen in my life from the Louvre to the National Gallery of God where your father is holding a cigarette. I see that. I see that. You know what I mean? My father always had a cigarette. I've always had a cigarette in his hand. What a great... In the picture, that was a little black and white picture. And that was, I was in John Gotti's house over 40 years ago. And I was in his house and he had all these portraits on his wall. I go, wow, John, those are really nice portraits. He goes, yeah. He goes, when I was in the joint, I met a counterfeiter that became a portrait artist. And for making money, he went to make a portrait. And he said he did them all photographs. So in my wallet, I had a little black and white picture of them, of my father and mother standing in my grandmother's backyard, dressed like that. And my father had a cigarette in his hand. And I gave John the picture and he goes, oh, let me see what he could do. And about a month later, he sent for me and he gave me that portrait. Fantastic. What a great story. Let me tell you, Anthony, that's the only good deed he ever did in his life. Thank you so much, Anthony. Folks, we're out of time on the Runlet and Baldachi Report with our good friend, Anthony. Thank you. Anthony, thank you very much. The hour went by so fast. Reformgangsters.com. Reformgangsters.com. Excellent. It was a pleasure. Have a nice day. Try to stay warm up there, okay? We will. Thank you. All right, thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you, fellas.