 to order just make sure as we come in this evening if you haven't done so already just make sure you sign in we'll do our best to get everybody that's online any adjustments to the agenda are we good to approve as written we need to we're not gonna do the minutes they weren't in your packet so we will skip that and add to next week or two weeks move to approve as amended second okay all in favor hi all right and first on the agenda is to have the hearing in regards to the proposed zoning and bylaw amendments you want to so we have so Rick Benson here he's the chair of the planning Commission DRB town meeting committee and all sorts of things so we had had our public hearing and then we met so I should introduce some members so Benson there's Eric Webb Dana Colovec and then a couple other obviously other members that couldn't be present tonight so and Danny Dover's part of the Conservation Commission who was very helpful through the process so we had our public hearing and then met immediately following to see if there was any changes I think we might have made a couple of minor changes but you have it now then the only thing I gave you was what's in your packet was what Kevin Geiger drafted Rick and I reviewed it and then shared it with the rest of the PC so that our updated bylaws will match state statute because just became some of it he said in an email isn't even going to be effective until like December 20 24 like no way we have been working on these so we just included everything so as of right now we should match we're in compliance with state law so I guess if any of you guys have questions you can ask basically was making provision for subdivisions and compact compact divisions for multiple height waivers for certain you know multi-family properties to increase density to a certain extent which on both and for quite frankly for Bethel for new subdivisions or planned unit developments that are able to be hooked up to our town water and sewer there's not much land available to do that but we wanted to make sure we complied with state statute so in case there someone finds some area to do it we can make that waiver and that that was really the whole reason for rewriting the bylaws was was generated from the push for increased housing was it was the issue of housing and two rivers had a grant to do this and I think there were seven towns yeah agreed to go ahead and review their bylaws and they had a grant so they could guide us through those changes which we didn't have a whole lot that we could do to increase density but we did we did make some a few changes and really the rest of it was just all housekeeping stuff so there's no real massive earth-shattering changes here it's just tweaking it a little bit and making sure we're current with all the current statutes and laws that have come into play in the last few years and hopefully a couple things we want to do but we couldn't write that our next we're working with two rivers we have a contract to for revision of the town plan which which guides the bylaws has to come from that you know so there are a few little things we'd like to do in there only for and the plant the conservation Commission worked with us real closely as far as doing anything major to the resource conservation and rural development districts you know I quite frankly I was hoping to reduce the lot size requirement requirements in those areas and they had a very good position why that's not a good idea between forest blocks and and so on so we've we chose not to deal with those but medium density and there's another yeah just just for all I think medium density though we'd like to make a little tweak in in the in the the town plan because for whatever reason that one says it shall be four acres yeah and we'd like to make it two but that'll be a whole another process we're gonna start in September and we do have a contract we were lucky the last time we did the update of the town plan that would get a municipal planning grant this time we do not so it'll cost us about $5,000 so I'm gonna use that take we'll take that money out of the contract labor line so there just wasn't a grant available and and it's a process to the town plan update we want to update some census data a few things like that we want to cut some minimum acreage it was a couple things we want to do. Equity and inclusion I want to make sure. Oh equity and inclusion yeah and they actually the good news about the equity and inclusion section in the town plan is that the two rivers has grant money and they will work to update the equity and inclusion section at no cost to us they have a grant for that so their first estimate was $11,000 and we said we don't have that money. So we went through we looked at fear what we could do what they could do and then and they were great about it so and we don't plan to start in that till like September. The PC was gonna take the summer off. We're tired and we're hoping we have new members Russell roll off maybe Paul Valley I don't know. I think was that it just Russell and right so far so far so far we're still looking we need numbers right because the current chair was there on a temporary basis for a year which now three he'll be making his exit. That's right I would also like to exit so what we did tell the PC that that both Rick and I have done because didn't you know Denise was on and she was a member and then like remember she kind of she can be a liaison but can't be a she can be an ex officio but not a voting member so yeah you're looking your game was our loss on that yeah exactly so if you're interested in being on the Planning Commission please let me know are there any other comments in regards to the zoning bylaws we we can go in person first and then we can go to the Zoom meeting after either board or in person again I actually I'd like some clarification about this person I've seen with the state actually pass that actually work in terms of like the rural conservation district it's it's really just doesn't it only covers areas that are can be hooked up to the town water and sewer oh okay it's really village it's really nice there is a little bit where it's extended down if you but that's all floodplain it just where the were a lot that's rural conservation might touch on which might hardly be any place there's no place I can think of I see okay yeah I thought maybe this was a blanket opportunity for to encourage cluster development even in the world conservation district no okay no nothing in person anything from anybody on the Zoom see anything Paul's shaking his head no does that prevent clusters outside of the no just encourages it encourages it within the water district but it doesn't prevent no if somebody wanted outside in the my neck and woods no we already have provisions for that okay so Rick and I just looked so once you adopt the zoning regulations they will take effect 21 days after your adoption currently anything that has to be reviewed under the pending these draft zoning regulations anyways anything that came in you know once the PC had their hearing we've been looking had to look at both sets but they'll be official 21 days after your adoption hearing done do we have a motion to approve the bylaws okay all of Avery I just a note to Chris and everyone we did have fairly I was I would say a fairly good amount of people at our hearing that had few concerns a few misunderstandings that we were able to to address or clear up at that time so I guess we must have done that job I just want to thank all the planning Commission members always not here right now Adam's not here what's my missing Russell's not here like I'm missing somebody I said Zoe anyways just yeah of course you need to spend there but thank everybody for the time it's it's a lot of work I mean I think it's interesting but it and it takes a lot of work for us to look at it and look at the state law and get feedback and you know the Conservation Commission was great they brought proposed language so Danny was great and Mary and they attended several meetings so that was very helpful so I just want to thank everybody it's a definitely a team effort they really worked well with it was good it was good good to see them yeah active and involved in this process because that's what it's all about yep absolutely thank you all thank you all right yeah we'll just turn it over to public comment so if there's anything that's not on the agenda this evening that anybody would like to bring it up we'll go to the zoom first and then we'll do in person how's that switch it up I see Paul had his hand up first you okay yeah yes yeah so do we have an update on the phase to water system project tomorrow morning not yet tomorrow morning is our first meeting tomorrow morning at 9 is myself and Richard are gonna meet with the engineers and the contractor to see the schedule etc so currently I don't know any more than you do so but I will tomorrow and then we'll publicize that information our next packet thank you guys I'm gonna so so not yet Paul but next packet hopefully we'll have an update you're welcome Lenny you're muted can you hear me now yes yep yep I just want to make you all aware that Bethel is having its second annual Pride Fest this June from June 22nd to the 24th we've garnered more support we have the fire department they're gonna do some barbecuing for us at the outdoor picnic we have Shaw's donating the White River Valley School has donated food so we have a lot more support if these are community events yes it's about pride it's about queer pride but it's also about the community and bringing the town together so we have two events that are all age events and one is a mass queer aid ball on the 23rd which is a Friday and you know it's for the youth is for the young ones and their families and the other is a family picnic that's happening at the Recreation Center on Saturday all they have to do all anybody has to do is show up come in be safe have fun enjoy the community and that's what we're working towards it'd be great to see some of the faces of the select board at one or two of these events that's about it any questions I have a question how did your book group so how'd the book group meeting go do you know because I know you moved it to Town Hall a while at Owen answer that but I was more of a like a spectator there and it went really really well there was about 30 people there and it went really really well yeah we all right before to the next one it was a great day yeah it was a really great day and I'm really excited to announce that our next book group will be on August 15th and will be a very different type of book it's a graphic novel young adult graphic novel called the wash day diaries and the artist who did all the drawings for this book is at the Center for Cartoon Studies and she's actually going to come and talk to our book group about the process of working with an author and designing that author's vision as the artist and this book is winning a whole bunch of awards so it's really really exciting oh that is exciting what a great thing for people to learn about to about the book and just how they I've always wondered how illustrators you know capture the vision of the artist of the author that'll be great yeah on August 15th you say and it we're just gonna play on it being at the Town Hall we had we gave away 37 copies of the book and we had 32 people and two children come adult people and two young people come so it's great that we had childcare cocktail did the food lovely oh good that's great well congratulations that's nice and then you hear her to say that when we go to do the town plan that two rivers we're gonna start in September two rivers has a grant so the equity inclusion section a town plan they are actually willing to do for free so we'll certainly be reaching out to you and your committee around that chapter so you can work with the PC the planning commission all right anything else out there see any other hands nothing in person good they done a very good job I thought and one question was brought up to me about the I guess they called the skirt that goes off into the driveway aprons aprons how far do they both go off into the to that because someone asked me about it but I don't know because they thought it was too short it should look longer into the driveways see if I specified in that I mean the paved ones are normally about foot to two foot depending on the slope of the driveway and different things like that and then and then I think the town was gonna go through and do some we did some because we did that we did Kirk quite those two we did perks and let's see if I have my folder so I'm looking for my RFP we did the town is doing the apron so if somebody has an issue they need to talk to the road foreman but we did go through and we did some Kirk white and a couple others because in some places there was obviously a significant drop between their driveway and because by the time we added material and then five inches of paving so we'll have to so just have someone reach out to Morgan okay if they have an issue but we did not specify how many feet I it's usually just not as much as you can just make a quick transition coming down to look like it probably was maybe a foot and a half to two foot come down that sudden drop off and what to me was that bump to come off because some low-riding vehicles and stuff yeah more class concerned about yeah I saw signs this morning on my way to work so I'm assuming I haven't seen anybody on the road crew today but they might have been up there working today because I saw us road signs okay they weren't on Christian Hill all right I just saw road signs up so anyways but yeah just tell them to reach out to the road foreman Doug please okay thanks anything else all right we'll move forward we have the water and sewer budget we had a table that last time to get some more up-to-date numbers which the current proposal that we have or updated proposal I guess you call it is a sewer budget of two hundred and seventy one thousand one hundred and ten dollars which is one point five five percent increase which which which the new proposed rate would be a hundred ninety five dollars and sixty five cents quarter and then the proposed water budget is two hundred fifty six thousand eight hundred and thirty two dollars that's a decrease of about three point seven five percent so the proposed rate would be a hundred and twenty five dollars and twelve cents quarter so that is I know on the water and I can't really talk too much on the sewer I know on the water and the rate the rate decrease percentage is less than the total budget decrease percentage and that was because we had some users that dropped off so we had less use to calculate in the formula with that so so even though it was down three point seven five percent which is you know I think when we sat here when we start this water thing four years ago yeah like four years ago when we started to this water I mean I think a lot of the gains we were hoping to do our long-term gains right we didn't think there would be really short-term gains actually be short-term pains right and we're already starting to see some short-term gains we are so that was kind of nice but at the same time just the way it fell with some reorganization of you know some buildings and stuff that there's there's been some less use on on these systems so and we're pumping it you know quite a bit of less of if you're starting with water first you know we we're pretty we pumped a lot less water than we did last year so that's a good thing that means that the lines are holding up that and we're so it's less electricity less water less repairs so there was some savings in the budget so but because of the change the reduction any use while the budget drops I mean the water rate dropped I think point seven three percent but for sewer it did not have the same effect the the budget the sewer budget was an increase of 1.55 but because of the lack of EU's it actually increased the sewer rate by three point three one percent so the trickier thing about sewer is it you know less water is great it makes the effluent a little stronger because it's not as diluted and the age of the facility is 35 years it's at its you know peak life cycle for some of the stuff we did take American Rescue Plan money and updated the pumps and put in a new generator but we're right now in the process in the next couple weeks Richard's going to be pumping out one of the tanks and having some welding done and there's a brass gear in two boxes and he's having one evaluated and hopefully it's going to be able to have that manufactured so it would be a lot less cheaper than replacing the entire unit so just a lot of things are at the end of their useful life so sewer you know doesn't have the luxury of reducing their budget and also to the sewer fund you know oh is the town usually there's a do-to-do from that we talk about water is doing good so we're not so good so but that's historic so so that's the deal with the rates and we are it's one of those things that you like to see the rates drop but then again you don't because at the same time we will our next water project which you know believe it or not when we started this one and we're thinking about the next one sometimes when your rates are a little higher you get more aid but you know obviously it's not a big deduction and you know it's what's right for the users and we want to pass along some of our savings from this you know last phase to the users now does that answer all your questions Paul I know you had questions last time about the budget and the rates well I'm just glad to see the breakdown the way it is you know it's always good to see exactly what my bill is now and what my bill is going to be next time you know we always like to see a decrease and that's that's all good and the rate of increase is not you know exceptionally high but it's just good to see the breakdown so everybody who asked me you know you can look and see that number and know exactly where what's going on so thank you yeah I wish the packet was online I'm gonna have make sure Kelly puts it up there tomorrow because you know Tim had come up with a created this great forum for the you know for us to count this how I calculate rates and after I look at all the use and so this is really handy and it really shows you exactly how many gallons you pumped because when when Richard provided me with the numbers of how many gallons of water he pumped I actually went and double checked them I'm like I can't be right because it was such a you know reduction so I was a little bit panicked there for a minute is it because I just look for it earlier not for today no wonder Denise no wonder Denise and I can't find okay well get that fixed because I could not find that thing today for Denise all right I'll get that corrected so thank you maybe we all missed a meeting wrong day well there you go we missed that meeting right church wrong he was they say I'm Teresa just for curiosity I appreciated seeing the numbers from your side of you know how how the budget was reduced based on the differences in what we're pumping now from pre phase one do you have any sense will it be a similar like are we looking to expect another drop in what we're needing to pump as we complete additional phases absolutely yeah I think so I mean I'm not sure how big of a difference we'll see this time because we're looking at you know Graham Street Highland by Centennial I mean although I will say this I definitely expect there to be some savings on Sandhill because we've done a couple repairs on Sandhill and a couple repairs on Bicentennial but I don't think it'll be to the extent of this because we had done such a big project so quality related not quantity like the new pump houses and absolutely and the lining of the tower and stuff those are more quality than you know you know those are things like that you're not gonna get a quantitative measure after the fact but I would I would assume that any any line that we do is going to save us water yeah and I expect increased usage on crystal drive so they you know but we showering yeah we can run the washing machine in the shower at the same time I know so yeah so I do expect you know some savings but not like this and then the next phase I know nobody wants here but I'm gonna tell you anyways it's gonna be like North Main because South Main got paved recently and River Street just got paved like you know North Main last week after South Main no did the pay the pavement here yeah it's made how far did they go just past Buffalo mouse no when all the way up to the neighborhood all right yeah that pavements newer right Doug I said the pavement up here was done after the pavement down in the village no on South Street I mean South Street from the town office you guys were just there like two years ago no three oh oh that one I was talking the village yeah it's about the same time that I that might be one year older yeah it happened before I came so I assumed it was older but anyways that being said it still is the oldest but I don't anticipate us doing another phase for a little while just you know the money the cost and you know at this point we don't have to see I mean we saw the big difference you know the first phase versus second phase just on rates right I mean you know it's almost double this time just because of the percentage rate that we're paying on the note yeah so we'll see what we'll just see but that's certainly one thing we've thought about because we did look at Christian Hill because I think they that may require a booster station as well for Cherry Lane and but there's not as many users up there and South Main was done recently River Street just done and and Main Street will be redone maybe 68 years so I would just get them together and have them on the shelf so that yeah the opportunity comes and because you know how it is I mean every five or six years everything changes exactly I think what one administration comes in one goes out or whatever and there's always money money yeah so what we'll do is the same thing we did before which is you can we can get a planning loan for no payback for five years and then if we do the project within the five years they'll wrap it into the loan yeah and at no interest so that's definitely what we'll look at to do you know phase three but do we not to panic anyone it won't be happening is there any significant upgrades I know we've been kind of doing sewer upgrades as you know we took some of the American rescue money and did some pumps and generating stuff but is there any major things that we need to be planning for well Richard Richard is currently going through the capital they had an asset management plan and he's been going through that but what's gonna happen yeah is some of the stuff is just being mandated by EPA so there is some but he was really lucky we actually got some equipment from another town that they're gonna give us to let us have he's also working to have things like why it's coming in to fix one of the digester and so he's paying so some of the stuff he's just doing in a very economical way and then having the person come in and redo the gear that's the word for that wrong like not they have to manufacture it or whatever there's a free tool they have to tool it so they're gonna do that and he has some trees that he's budgeted for to be replaced and but nothing you know obviously there's a couple of things that if they go it's gonna be major but we've had them inspected and to see what we could do for maintenance to kind of extend their useful life but they may be they may end up being what's next is a instead of a DW SRF loan is is CW we may end up borrowing money you know in the future for the treatment plan but currently we're trying to pay as we go and economic but I'm not aware at this point of anything major I say that would happen tomorrow so any further discussion on the water sewer rates and annual budget these will be effective July 1st so there's anything just need a motion to adopt so second okay all in favor all right all right and tire damage on Christian Hill so I did end up speaking with this is a story and a half so our insurance company out of the gate felt that they wouldn't said they wouldn't cover so we sent people directly to the contractors insurance because I didn't feel that we should make people wait there are residents that insurance company has also denied the claims and our insurance company also denied the claims today they feel that it's the contractors responsibility so I I did reach out to VLCT they have a municipal law where you can ask them a question I heard back from Garrett Baxter and he said you know as you know trees we're not they don't do contract law so I would need to speak to our attorney who's on vacation right now to see my concern is that certainly someone could go to small claims court towards the contractor but if it became like a big lawsuit of some sort and they listed the town as well I'm not sure and I'm not a lawyer I don't know how it would work out for us in the end but currently there are I know of one of at least I know of one couple who had a lot think lost at least two to three tires another one one Dave Eddie also was one he may have lost one or two tires himself so we have a few instances of it but certainly the road was paved the pavement was removed so everyone driving it would see that and I went up and down the road the road crew did we didn't lose tire you certainly have needed to go slow I was going about 10 as I went up through and somebody passed me so this is one of those situations where in our case the our insurance feels the contractors liable but they are already denying claims they've already come out of the gate and denied so leaves you in leaves people the option of going to small claims court with the contractor or coming back to the town and requesting that the town by replace a tire it's kind of one of those things I feel like we're stuck in it I did not specify in the RFP as I have never done exactly how many lifts of material or you know specific equipment it our insurance company felt that that was unnecessary you know when you have an experienced contractor that shouldn't be an issue so I'm not sure you know how it would turn out for us if we went to court if the if they felt the RFP was not you know complete and I obviously need our town attorney to review it to see what the son you know that obviously all bidders signed on form they submitted whether he feels that that's enough for us or not I don't know and he's on vacation so I won't have an answer to next week but I do know there's a couple people that are certainly looking for money to replace their tire one gentleman that I spoke with very very nice young man and he just said you know it's about two or three hundred dollars for his tire and he's I just don't have the money and I pay taxes and I had he had already found out by the contractors insurance he was denied and we processed his claim and then I just found out today so I will be honest I have never in all my years of doing this been in this situation so why is anybody responsible when it's obviously a construction site it's true if you ran your car into a pothole we're not paying for that the town is not it's it's you know because we had for example we had a sinkhole in front of the town office a couple years ago somebody hit it Tim and I thought for sure our insurance would cover and they said no did you were you aware of it I'm like no no there's like there's no liability because the town has well there's liability if you report it and it's not right we didn't know about it then somebody hits it then you can be liable but exactly but we that wasn't the case there so it's true there were certainly signs up during the day and obviously the road was pavement and then it was not so it wasn't like we just went out and graded the road up it was very apparent that there was construction done the product was purchased by the contractor to our specification and we have all you know all the material was purchased at spec at state spec so there was nothing wrong with the material that was purchased it was the proper material for the job so yeah it's a tough one because you get like typically when I have dirt roads there are state roads and the state just makes you pay all the claims so you because they'll just hold your money right so so there is no negotiate with the state but I don't know I mean towns it's tricky with the town because you can at the end of the day the town is still partially liable for the contractor's work on their road if that makes sense so it's kind of a you know go back and forth you know and we do make them carry insurance and provide proof of insurance to set limits and they did that and the insurance company their insurance company is denying it saying that they told I only know what they told David which was that the town purchased the product which and David he's like no that's not true he's like the contractor did so and I'm just not really sure how it's gonna sugar out but for me personally I feel bad that you have a couple residents that are caught in the middle you know it's it's you know and if you have a newer vehicle or if you have newer vehicle you're better off if you have an older vehicle then you lose one tire all of a sudden you have three semi-worn and then one new and you know it's so for me I can see all sides I guess but so at this point we're just waiting to hear what our lawyer sure I can I can do that I can he's on vacation I could ask Dave to review it and give us his opinion as to whether or not if we if it became a core issue whether or not we lose or or not you know first I had assumed because if we had a thousand dollar deductible so if VLCT was gonna pay the claims we would have paid we would have said you know pay it and we would have paid a thousand dollar deductible so you know hard to know I believe so I I would say five to six that I'm aware of I had let's see one guy two or three usually like two or three hundred dollars yeah so I'm gonna say maybe because Kelly had one today and I didn't know that person's name I hadn't heard that one so maybe seven as I believe that one family lost two or three I mean I think the tricky thing is well probably hat well the thing is going forward we're gonna have to do something to identify that and yes absolutely it's ridiculous that we have to get to that point where you know okay here's the bit specs for our project you know yeah they're gonna be as you know when it should be okay well it's kind of known how this process needs to work but I think what we do somehow we're just gonna have to protect ourselves going forward or say that any damages would be you know well what's the words not means and measures means and methods I mean it may be that's what would the ad is to say the means and methods need to be as specified in you know the state just like we expect the material but anyways so I just you know right or wrong or indifferent I feel bad for the resident so and it's hard because you don't want to set a precedent breaking the bank so excuse me we're not talking about breaking the bank no it is good will yeah I mean people pay a lot in property taxes and you know I'm sure it was a big certainly be a big loss I wouldn't want all of a sudden a $300 bill you know all of a sudden or two hundred for a tire that's people live on fixed income so but anyway so yeah it's just it's a quandary and I could certainly wait and see when our attorney comes back from vacation and ask Dave his opinion and you know he could say you know by the time you pay him for his opinion and this and that you know we probably just paid for half a time for his rate and then his opinion and but so I mean I would probably be more waiting you know I guess my opinion would be to wait for his opinion okay just because it's more than just this project it would be a precedence that we would set to the town possibly make it up before you do phase two of the waterline and somebody drives through a ditch line or something and yeah but that wouldn't be us that'd be whoever well would it be the same it would be the same thing that we're talking about now right well I don't think so I mean I just think this is a smaller contractor I think that their insurance company has the facts wrong despite me send spending several you know a while on the phone with the gentleman obviously he spoke to me and then Dave Eddie and he had two different that is not what I I told the gentleman so I think what could you know I think if our insurance company had paid they would have gone after the contractors insurance company and subrogated and they could have duped it out the league didn't have any no I think the leagues had similar issues with other towns right I mean Garrett just said as you know we're not you know the authority on municipal law they do what they do so he said I suggest you speak to your town attorney so I'm happy to send Dave an email for him to look at and tell people that we have not made a decision yeah he's a pretty straight shooter yeah oh for sure yeah all righty that's what we'll do they're very good with that okay well Dave Eddie might not have been but I'll wait a second Paul's got his hand away been he missed his time what contingency fund no no I did because it's a paving grant it's not like a bigger project so not really know we had hard bids for the dirt and hard bids for paving so and we only received you know $200,000 of paving money for a 350 or I don't have a 350,000 dollar project so we already were out of pocket money to do it so unfortunately not in this case unfortunately I thought maybe you had some money you were gonna share yeah right okay okay all right and we had some permits from babes bar that they would like to cater so first one's on June 24th at the White Church from 6 to midnight and the second is July 15th at babes bar parking lot from 7 to 1145 did anybody have any issues with any of the catering permits are we good to approve them as written I need to recuse myself because I work the door at some of babes event I don't want it to be a conflict of interest thanks approval second okay all in favor hi hi that one right yep all right oh one's dancing and then facility use policy update so yeah Kelly had worked on this a while ago and then we looked it over and I'm a little bit stomp on the outside portion because when you look at the you know it talks about how many people that you could have and so before it had said unlimited amount of people at an out at the outdoor and obviously that's that's not right we don't it's not it couldn't possibly be unlimited so I was trying to find a standard like how many square feet per person and then mo was one of the listers was kind of looking at all right how many you know if you if you removed the building or pavilions or whatever's on the property and then at first it was like saying if you're outdoor wedding then you'd need 14 square feet per person which would have meant that at pee vine we could have put like you know 4,000 people I'm like okay this is not right so what that point comes down to a sanitary exactly facilities per person exactly and that's why I put that provision in here now all facilities have restrooms and be the responsible and cost of the user to provide at least one bathroom or portal at per hundred people also remind their pack and pick out so I talked to Morgan a little bit about it and then looked at you know we're trying to figure out how many people were like on the van shell if they had during forward fast and just trying to be reasonable about like at the rec area and pee vine park especially so the rec area by the time you take out the pool and the skate park and how many people could you actually see because I have seen other towns have had this problem all of a sudden somebody wants to have a festival and your thing set unlimited no it doesn't work bode so well for you with all those people so I mean typically I think you're in the hundred plus or minus that you know at these events yeah from the ones that I've seen either at the rec department or at the ban shell or right usually somewhere around a hundred people yeah but you have parking to and that town hall was easy because the fire safety tells you how many people can have yeah so I guess I'm looking so I'm definitely looking for feedback on pee vine park the ban shell the rec area it do feel that you need to have a maximum occupancy unlimited is you're just asking for trouble but there was many ways it's like 80 square feet per person that's kind of how we all right if you do that at pee vine that's trains a little different and you could put where versus the ban shell so it's not I couldn't really figure out one size fits all here for a math formula which is what I like to do well it's kind of like we that year we had town meeting day here yeah you know we probably had hundred and call 80 maybe people and we were stuffed yeah you could even move in here so would you have wanted the occupancy is 250 so it's like I don't know how 70 more people are here but remember that your dog it was it was I mean we went to vote it was like it was it was like downtown Boston had six o'clock yeah nobody could even move exactly we needed some way direct traffic it was it was terrible I mean so I'm just trying to like look like like 500 people are like well one you only have enough to park maybe ten cars over there so after that you'd have to be down the street for ever yeah I mean the rec area 375 I mean that's that's a lot like I said they it seems high yeah but I've we've all been on I mean is there a shell during forward fast and you know she's easily had a couple hundred people by the time you have vendors and you know and everybody there so but it is so I was trying to look at how many square feet per person well it's it's tough because I was on e9 one viewer trying to map out the areas to come up with how many you know square feet and then like I said Peabodyne was insane it and what you needed a wedding is not if you've got people throwing a Frisbee or something it's different than I would think a big turnout would be like 200 yeah you know I don't know if I've seen any real events I've been over the limit so much that like should somebody want like just throwing random ideas out there let's say you know we get the trails going and they want to do some sort of bike fest and it really draws a crowd you don't want to limit it so much that it's actually detrimental because those types of things are for economic development right that'll help downtown businesses and other things and so yes there are other issues like parking but we're not discussing parking we're discussing a limit of a space right I think we want to be cautious not to limit it but I think then the bigger issue is you know like the festival example you don't want somebody who's gonna come in and throw a music festival say oh great this town has no limits let's fucking just yeah tear this place up we don't want that and so the limits are more to sort of push back on that yeah right that side of bad behavior versus limit something that actually could be beneficial and maintain control and those sorts of things right you know maybe bring up a good point is maybe in here as far as obligation of user maybe it should also be besides the trash and the portal it should be that they that parking that they have to work with the town and or please for for a for parking right do so maybe that's something we add in here but yeah so you know I just I would hate to see them the town shoot itself in the foot limiting itself too much right I think Chris is right we're not at that point where we're drawing much more I mean no but you got to have the parent you know have the guidelines put in place to protect yourself from either somebody taking advantage of you or losing out on an opportunity yeah so maybe pee vine gets dropped maybe pee vine although pee vine is larger than the ban shell or maybe steer people in the direction of if they are really set the Bethel has to be the location okay here's your largest area you're not gonna have the ban shell if you think you're gonna draw 400 people right and maybe even is more like 375 like the same as the record or some things that we're thinking or do you put some language in there or as approved thanks for coming you know maybe if they're giving you an out that if for the opportunity to do something bigger if somebody have to go to the select board right if you wish to go over max occupancy then you go to the select board so then in that case I think we should since what you're saying about town hall I think we should drop that 250 just because the fire safety says that's our max occupancy we found that with the Arnold block we had the fire Marshall come and kind of give us advice and we did the calculations based on his and then we hosted an event movie showing and we were told we could have 90 people in the space we were doing the showing in and we got to 70 we just said no we can't fit more people and we actually had some people that were willing to leave because it was just it was not only uncomfortable it actually felt unsafe well when I looked at the 50 people I mean we've all been in the conference from downstairs yeah so so maybe we do 30 I don't know what you want to do downstairs 30 max sure 25 what would you like to do 30 if they line the walls yeah so you want to say 25 or are we allowed to set height limits to yeah I think it'd be hard to fit more than 25 people yeah so then it sounds like the Mac town hall maybe should not be 250 you think it should be 175 if you guys had or 150 you had 180 in here that must have been yeah and that was tight yeah it was very tight and there was people up there too yeah it was it was really tight so maybe we cut it in half and we do 125 as long as there is an escape class yeah yeah yep I mean the ability to say if we under utilize that there's the opportunity for them to petition the board to ask for more right yep absolutely where if we leave it out there like when they was saying 500 people to go to Peavey Park and someone decides to put on a concert well many concert there you know I don't know where 500 people on Peavey Park would even stand but I mean that's a lot of people right 500 a lot of people why don't we just cut this in half for cut them all in half so if we do 125 25 250 at Peavey the band shell because even like you know Ford Fest and you know things like that that I mean you're probably at the ban show you probably don't have more than a hundred and a half maybe at the band shell at a time you know the concert series is what maybe on a good night like a hundred maybe with so I mean gives it still gives a lot of room there like guessing and I'd rather not I'd rather not make it well and guessing based on current numbers versus guessing based on or coming up with a number based on you know me how often do we I guess how often do we even have somebody asked for Peavey Park actually you know surprisingly we do but we don't reserve it we just tell people that it's a public park and they can use it yeah exactly but if they were coming in thinking you know that we're gonna throw an event and you know rope it off and I mean I wonder if we just leave it the same and maybe spend this year trying to get some data from these places because they don't how many people they actually bring in to see what I think the only one really more than that fast because we don't get that many people that come to the family fun for I mean you get you know she's probably had a couple hundred I could ask her and but like it's a nice hot Friday in the summer there might be quite a bit of people over at the right between the car event that was a big yeah you're drawing people that wouldn't normally come to a Bethel event they're coming because of the subject matter right right so um so ban shell I mean I I would think she must garner 150 you know at different times people are gonna come and go it's gonna ebb and flow there for the whole exactly what if we did it this way which is leave the max occupancies as they are but set a limit of like if you anticipate your event to draw more than 150 people right it's below all of those and so if somebody thinks their events gonna draw more than that they need to come to this and then I think we should say that I think the max occupancy should be then said at 150 for everybody and then I guess my because it would be nice as you want control if they're gonna do an event you're gonna exclude people from having the conversation with us because somebody's gonna go on the town website pull up the policies and say oh 150 that's not gonna meet our needs and think the town's already saying no as opposed to setting it higher and saying if it exceeds 150 the requirement is to come talk to the board I see what you're saying so like instead of somebody not having an event here because they think the occupancies are lower even though we'd be a minimal to you know they're not gonna have that conversation with us bring them in to have the conversation I see what you're saying yeah all right that's fine we could and like I said I'm just made although I would like to clarify that I just made up divine park ban shell in the rec area so I do think 500 is too many to have here so so and it's good we have we have Owen on here because he can maybe weigh in with this but something like something that comes up in my mind is the Juneteenth event right and I know you know David Fair put a lot of energy into the first one or we're gonna have a second one you know David was probably planning that that first year was gonna be small but wanting growth and so if somebody's thinking oh I want I want to be able to do this event to be able to know I can have growth within my own you know annual event then they might choose Bethel earlier versus oh I'm gonna go to Randolph and choose a spot where I know I can have growth in an event because you know first years aren't usually the most robust it's the yeah right when years right absolutely it's like the stage race wasn't as big as it was come out of the gate so I'm fine with that I think that's a great attitude but I do like I said I don't feel comfortable with the numbers I put in here so that I totally yeah but you did a square footage I did I kind of look at the map and then I did some research online to try to figure out how many square feet per person and like I said at a wedding it was like 14 square feet and I'm like oh you know but that it was just it's just hard to find and then what I felt was a square footage at pee vine terrain is different whereas when we've seen the band shell use for forward fast it's pretty efficient and people can kind of meander through and so why you know by the time we had vendors and so it's just I don't know what the formula is I don't you know especially taking into terrain etc so and parking I'm comfortable with the numbers that are here okay and if we want to do some research to fine-tune it over the course of the next year to see you know how many people are there at the summer concert yeah that's yeah how many people when you have forward fast or you have the food or the town market farmers market farmers market all ten of them well so but so that's ten people but what kind of space are they taking and that's we can do some research to get a better idea sure I think this is this puts a limit it's probably safe yeah I'm not comfortable with pee vine that number 500 I mean I looked at it and I wrote it down as more of a placeholder but I mean if we went that one down to 300 or keep you know put them all 375 even yeah I mean I think research on today's numbers is great but doesn't doesn't count and so you know we don't want to shoot ourselves in the foot if we're if we're making this economic development effort you want you want to cater to the people who are going to bring the economic flow into town not just the ones that exist here today and so and I can put out an email to Deetree or I can ask Deetree but I put an email out to Mary Floyd to see if she's ever counted to see how many people she's got it to do that so well I'm gonna draft this then because I want to add Deetree Mary Floyd I'm gonna add something about parking yeah because I definitely think that that should be an obligation of the user to if they're gonna have the thing they should deal with parking I've lived on Church Street over here for the forward festival that red duplex I there's that supposed to be lawn in the front but I had two cones there and people moved them and I came back from the forward festival the cones are moved and people were parked there I almost had them towed and people were parking kind of in front of people's driveways because there are a lot of apartment houses there that no I mean the pool no it's not town property no that's school property so yeah was there any other things you want to change or that you approve a long larger scale events I think I do we will say if you're gonna you want to say if you're gonna go over max occupancy because we didn't lower it right how do you want to work it I don't care I can write down whatever you say I'm curious what others think is there people and they come to the board and I think at that point they should have some kind of idea about where people might be parking even though it is the space there people were talking about it's like where it would depend on what what day it is to because like on a Saturday this is empty if there's nothing going on at the white church people can park there but there's a wedding at the white church and people are parked up and down church Street it's kind of like when they do the the coin drop you know if there's something going on at the church a wedding reception or funeral and that starts at noon then the people get done the coin drop at 1130 because they can't be out in the middle of the road so your your point was to leave the numbers higher to encourage people to come and then but set a lower limit of if you if you expect your event would exceed 150 or 200 which is lower than the number of max occupancy you know you're required to just come have a conversation with the board you know and in some ways it also puts larger scale events on our radar so we can say oh by the way do you know about this coin drop or this thing that's planned you know then it kind of at least gets it on the town radar that okay this is gonna be a bigger event and we and then we can ask those questions like right how do you plan to deal with parking how do you you know maybe they've already planted out or maybe they said we should add that or we should make sure we have the right number of porta-potties for you know so it kind of gives us a an end to kind of weigh in on some of those issues that they could sign this and then not follow through whereas they've come and talk to us we can kind of push on those buttons so I could put a little asterisk under max occupancy and then put the asterisk under the table which says if you expect your event will attract or exceed 150 people you you know you need to make an appointment to select board so when we say we want to leave them the same so we're saying we're going to leave them the way trees has been because we have unlimited on those ones yeah I'm assuming we mean the numbers in the first page that trees has yeah except for because our current facility use we have no limits for a recreation p-vine and show I think we're all on agreement that's a bad idea yeah and we seem to agree that 500 is too much at p-vine so we'll put 375 on here that's the only one where to change that's in my table we're 375 yeah I don't see the harm of spillover into the shooting range yeah yeah yeah Paul's saying 250 is at the town hall is too much dropped 150 yeah we actually yeah that's it is too much Paul that's what it's just what the fire Marshall said but and currently the select board's gonna leave it at 250 is that way you're still do you want to are you changing those to 125 and 25 the town hall since these you know you've done an event here personally right we know that this not be yeah so if we do 125 at the town hall and 25 at the conference run and we always have the option of the school absolutely that we can ask the school we can ask the school if they could yes so there's gonna be a rock concert mm-hmm thousand people yeah go to the school body the word about the athletic right I mean that's another yeah absolutely so all right so I can make these changes and do something of parking yeah exactly the next woodstock what you want yeah sorry I will drop to the reality that we all know is that you know an event such as what we're talking about will draw what it draws and if it exceeds the limit how are we gonna know that they're over 250 or 500 you know it's we did that as long as they show up in agriculture vehicles they can go to the new lot that's like a park you have to show up in agriculture at Carlos Meadow I will say we had a much bigger policy than this but it got into the weeds in another town where they were like if you have this you had to get a facility permit and it it was a lot it was daunting to write and agree but they were afraid that if you had a big event you want to make sure that have these people called the ambulance did they have somebody on standby you know emergency vehicles like they obviously didn't want to be surprised because they did some major events of 4th of July was a huge event in that town and there was a ton of people so and then you know I would have a gathering you want to make sure people have I would almost think that if we're gonna have a major gathering of something like that that would come before the board or or there would be an hour doesn't have to but right or that you know or the town administration would be looking at that a lot more thoroughly than really you know somebody that wants to rent the conference room you know I mean exactly that's a way bigger deal you have to figure out EMS and you know different things like that for some of the things like mine we don't ask a ton of questions we just we have passed on the facilities policy but in the past it said unlimited that's just a way to happen okay so you need a motion to it no I'm gonna make some changes and bring it back to you once I put the parking language in and you can adopt it next time I don't want any more work than I have to have yeah I'm not sure that you know bringing it to the select board is maybe the town administrator would report to the select board so we know what's going on but I don't see yeah it depends how big the event is and you know what you get the stage race comes to you well because they're using town roads but you do get the opportunity to ask them questions and they're always like super prepared but when you have an event like that or an event go through your town I have worked for a town where you had trouble before and so it's okay nice to have seen them and take you five minutes like a proven liquor license I mean and I think we have we already have people you know like Mary Floyd always comes in checks in with us about forward fast before it happens so existing events already sort of do that it sets a precedent that it's a bit more expected and it's yeah not a long adventure unless they're gonna be something where we really do want to take the time with it Paul's asking about firefly but that's on private property so we have no reach there I mean you would if you set up a ordinance but ready but again I believe you know even if it's on a private residence they still have the obligation to provide certain amenities based upon population I would assume so but so many so many restaurants for X amount of people and food right alcohol you know there's all those that's a state law if because we don't have an ordinance to government so it would be state law for like noise in the nighttime and obviously firefly I've never heard of them having any issues they always seem very responsible about you know bathrooms and this and that but that would be somebody there who was injured or whatever would sue the property owner be us if we had a big parking issue we you know someone call the police but okay so you'll bring that back to us yeah and we had energy improvements in rural remote areas program so I got the from Jean and he asked me to put it on the agenda and then I read through some of it and was scared but I did email as I said here with airy and said can you guys take if we were going to do an application could you do it and and I kind of wrote back what Harry had said was like if you just want a sesame he felt that there would be other ground opportunities and me personally my personal opinion is hopefully GMP comes through they've got 19 million I'm assuming it's coming out of something like this they're also working on renewable energy sources you know for people and so I mean it just it it seems out of reach for us right now so it certainly is outreach for me right now when did when did Green Mountain say they were going to find out about she was last time I spoke to her she said yeah the first region was June they're hoping to know by July because Richard and I met with her about doing something but anyways this is your thing I put it on here but I read some of it and talked to Harry and because you said you know what about Harry so I did reach out to him yeah hey well what do you know about this thing he's like I didn't even read the whole thing he said I just said I didn't read the whole thing I just sent it to Gene because we'd had a conversation about geothermal and in this network geothermal and maybe there would be a way to do it with this and I'm like so he didn't even read the whole thing and I read sections of it and I'm like holy cow and you know not to mention the fact that I would assume that you know bigger towns with bigger poor because it's rural we're all rural in Vermont right it's well here's my rationale yeah the this money is available for rural development pilot projects that can be replicated throughout the state yeah and a geothermal network doesn't just take care of the town buildings but from the firehouse to your office every property has can get rid of their fossil fuel right energy and save money so we're talking about it's the same principle as having a water system it becomes a win-win for the residents it becomes a win-win for development because if I move my factory or my business in here into this network I'm going to have less expensive fuel and it also because it's a network not just an individual each individual drilling their own it shares the excess heat from those buildings that are releasing more heat than they're than they're saving the school for example is a great waster of heat yeah so is GW it's a great waster of heat my guess is that some of these buildings along Main Street if that heat were recovered it could then be used to heat all of the people and so this would be in my mind this is not this is not something for the town there for the town properties right this is community right and it is potentially a pilot project for other small towns in Vermont because we're we are big enough to do it to to benefit from that kind of a network then I saw the the due date yeah me too and I oh my god because the legislature the legislation going before the state next summer would permit the establishment of a utility right to use utility kind of financing models even to meet the needs of such a grant yeah and and I what I I'm assuming our quote town charter does not provide for us to be a heating utility I don't know I mean you're already a water sewer utility I don't know but you know my thinking is twofold which is one is we haven't even upgraded all the water sewer systems like to add to do another you to trump a new utility when we haven't properly managed our own base utilities the issue and then I look at like Addison County there's towns over there that are rural towns that had Vermont gas come in and people were promised that it was gonna save all this money and this and that but those towns already have the infrastructure so right you know maybe they you know re they I always hate to reinvent the wheel but that's just me but maybe one of those towns that has some they get the money and maybe they're just further along in development because at this point we two rivers won't manage it they're not gonna write it I can't write it and that you saw the turnaround so I just wonder if there's somebody out there in Vermont poised to to get the money that we don't want to compete with that can do it you know what I mean does that make sense you know because you and I aren't doing it and two rivers isn't doing it so and the deadline is but it almost seems like much like the Green Mountain Powerpiece yeah you'd almost need to partner with an entity that can make this happen right like like you said it's like it's not really a direct benefit to the town the town might be the sort of arbitrator of the utility itself but you'd need to find the right partners in you know who's doing the actual work and and then I think kind of to Teresa's point of capacity for us to apply in this kind of turnaround is it's just not viable but if you could find somebody who says hey look actually it is viable we'd be making money off of this grant should you get it we'll we'll do the like work of the grant and the writing and so you know obviously I don't think a partnership like that's just gonna know that's a good point because you're right if somebody I mean can't I'm assuming maybe you know Jean that other someone could start a utility right they would have to go to the PSB and I mean don't we expect to see people if this is available that there'll be other utilities that may not be towns like GMP and other places or I guess maybe they become legislation goes through next year that's part of that legislation any organization private public whatever could establish and become the utility to do this and then we can tax their infrastructure I feel like I'm not well versed in this but I imagine something like EC5 or where it's it's not a town thing but they are there a utility a version of a utility right and you can contract with them as the individual user and then use their system and you know so I just wonder if there's a different mechanism maybe that isn't the town directly because if we do way I mean like Comcast we do assess them an amount on the value of their infrastructure so they actually do pay property tax so I mean and we don't do anything to collect or deal with you know Comcast bills so if an if a if a company came in and became the utility yeah maybe they would partner with us and maybe without you know a lot of whatever on our part maybe maybe this could be like a non-tax revenue stream I mean I don't know but and obviously what I know about geothermal you could write on ahead of a pin I had to research it when you brought up the first time I'm like why don't know what this is so I had to read about it and then I think I'd shared the article a couple times ago so I don't know I mean I you know I know we we obviously can't do it in this turnaround and if two rivers isn't willing to help us and we're what we're gonna do yeah he just said well he CC'd Peter Gregory and Pete they're just the same boat there's their short staff they've had you know turnover and so they're tight and they they're thinking that we want to do an assessment to see if we were viable they feel that there may be a just a great manageable grant out there than this monster I agree and that may be something that they Harry would be on the lookout for and that may be something that they could do that's more manageable because I said to Peter I can't do this and he was like yeah it's you know they would they were he was like yeah we're tight too and I know they just lost someone because Rita end up taking over another project that Connor was doing and now he's gone and so I think they're having their own internal you know staffing but we could certainly I could certainly email Harry and say hey keep your eyes open please for you know a grant that maybe assesses this sort of viability and see if that surfaces and then we could see if that is at the time if that's manageable that's a that's just kind of reading through it I mean maybe I'm wrong but when I was reading through it kind of indirectly talk about how there's three hundred thousand dollars worth of up to cash prices that could be well they call prices that can be used towards the development of the partnership or for putting together what I would perceive is the the need you know assessment and then it becomes like a half a million to five million dollars worth of project money I think the only thing I was like a little concerned on well I first as I checked in there was no match money or it said there was no match money in there I think I saw but then I just got thinking like you know a system whatever might be but you know to you know let's say you just did the village area right like I gotta think that's way more than five million dollars you know and then how and then obviously you don't have to match it but you know you don't want to just like build build a pipe to nowhere right or whatever a system to nowhere so you know I mean if it ended being I mean just I mean we're just looking at just a water system right is one of these two and a half million dollars and then when you bring in federal money it comes with federal ties so you're gonna have federal wage rates you mean all those things that are much much higher so I just wonder how how expensive one of these projects would be the only other thing as I said here under submission deadlines it said the concept paper submission deadline was April 14th the full application submission deadline is all I get back and then I got thinking with thinking with you know how grants work with you know like now that once they were partnered with Green Mountain but we kind of are like they've used our name right yeah so even if we did submit one would we even be acknowledged for a grant knowing that Green Mountain maybe the same pot of money maybe you know I mean I don't know if we could if you could if you get a free pot of money that will we could hire somebody to come into the town and explore ideas or something like that I think that's always good I just don't know if this I didn't have enough information with this no it this almost seems like this is one of those like you have your idea and here's your money type of deal not more like you're we're gonna give you like you know usually they're like $25,000 grant to go yeah right put together to do a preliminary study and then you come back and you file the other grant this one seems to be more like you have something that's like close to being on the shelf and you could qualify for as much as $5,000,000 so I don't know I'll email Harry though if you're open to that genius just have him keep his eyes open for a like some sort of assessment like small like he described in his email I mean if we could get grant money to have an engineering firm come in and do a feasibility study townwide but maybe you know maybe you start in a segment you know the assessment on what what our options are I mean who knows maybe there's more we can do with the river yeah they may say there's yeah and however we would do that a feasibility study yeah so I'll ask Harry the merge funds could be used to do a feasibility could be used to do a study on geothermal right but the energy committee already is that the $4,000 grant for the grant I'm working on that because they they want to use it on town buildings which I agree because we're hemorrhaging heat for sure out of the town office and and you guys had asked me to put this building in so I had done that so my intention was to complete the process I think you got cc'd on that from Harry it was Harry myself and Nicole and because I know Nicole was stepping back so that I would take over the Merp and we're trying to and he said he thought the application be out this week that's I'm assuming that's the same pot of money I'm not no I was talking about the the further down the road funds okay I was talking because that's the current Merp right okay $4,000 to use for assess for for energy basic whatever we want to use it for for energy yep so there's more Merp coming down the road so one of the so the $4,000 is to get the town ready to do right so it's a preliminary very quick energy audit this is not the kind of energy audit that is required for the bigger projects right that are down the road in the world that are available the reason Merp is challenged here is because we're not talking about just heating town buildings I see okay the only town the only way Merp would be helpful was because the town buildings are there okay now that doesn't mean that they can't take a look at whether or not geothermal is an option but with four thousand bucks we're not getting very lucky to get a couple well no second phase oh second phase it's hard for me I'm picking this up because energy committee was doing it now all of a sudden I'm doing a grant that I well much about so I'm like yeah so I'm trying to step up and take it over which is fine so it'll be second phase is coming then there is a second phase part of it and and the another thing that could be part of that four thousand and I think it all you only get one shot at okay is public education okay about these various alternatives that you know then we get some read on whether or not the public would be at all interested okay it's in going further down the road I'm gonna email Harry about the first and I'll ask him besides looking for the money can he send me more information on Murph and the second phase of Murph to make sure that we're that I'm yeah there's there's two phases second phase has both grant and loan okay all right let me all right then I'll reach out to Harry and ask him to because I only know the little bit I know so all and that's up to maybe five million per nice all right so could we build a town garage with it the most energy efficient town garage all kid him to get me the information yeah okay thanks I didn't realize anyway yeah so well I I understand the limits yeah and if we wanted I just wanted to say and a whether how or whether down the road this will come again for rural development right pilot projects yeah that can be replicated I don't know I don't need them but it seems like Vermont needs it yeah I agree I agree with that and I hope that there's a town you know multiple towns that take advantage of it that have you know just further along in it than we are and are obviously bigger staff than we are but just with the turnaround if that thing was really do in April we're already out of the mix so and we can't turn it around so why did he tell us I don't know I'm gonna talk to Harry to tell you what it says in the fine print but but I would request that we put some public education money in in that four thousand okay I'll make a note public and and the use for that would be basically to provide food and child care okay public education who come $4,000 all right I'll find out the whole nitty gritty on that from him because I've been out of the loop I knew it was exact happening but I wasn't when doing it now I am so I'm just trying to pick up job and the energy committee is yeah yeah fortunately meeting with them tomorrow I think and then we had the equipment committee yep so the first one is that they approved the purchase of a 2019 2020 Wackford-Newson with 300 hours for $59,816 dollars this is who the blower sweeper Bromley blade and so we have the money for that in the we had budget 75,000 so we're you know had a little savings there the road crew has had looked at this and another option and had them come to town and they were able to use and remove snow and this and that and they just felt like this would be a better option so I guess as in the past I'm just asking for the select board to approve the energy committee's recommendation to move forward with the purchase equipment yeah and then we can talk about the greater I had to chuckle when I saw that oh the equipment committee approved the purchase yeah well that's why we do it they come to they they're making a recommendation yeah I guess so we're I obviously knew that these payment schedules we had in here was greater greater yeah so you want to do the tractor first so what is the Wacker it's gonna come right out we're just gonna it's not gonna be a lot we're gonna pay for and how and that is and that's a used yeah yeah has has 300 hours on it yep it's 59,816 and they've tried it out and AJ what's a new one go for I have no idea because they have been with the equipment committee had been telling them like you have to buy use like we can't prices and we kind of were working on my schedule and and boy it's insane what happened with COVID and equipment prices I mean it didn't just go from here to here it went from here to like here so the guys tried they looked at a more expensive model of something else but they felt that this one in particular would be a little more could be used for more than just sidewalks to be used for more than one thing they looked at a skid steer and other as that had been something that wanted us to get for to get to the equipment committee wanted them to look at and they kind of measured some sidewalks to see where they could get make sure they could get through everywhere and so this one would be paid for out of the equipment committee fund or excuse me highway equipment fund and then this would just be blowing only doesn't have any type of sanding it has a blower sweeper brum v-blade v-blade pat plows use me muffle and forks but not nothing to dispense because they don't usually know they don't anyways here's what it's got right here yeah yeah I know they don't usually right the blower yeah so loader blower sweeper brum v-blade work so that lower to me I was the snow was the snow blower so little which actually be nice which is what we're looking for something that blows know a little bit makes it you know will nicer for travel etc so they have been looking at this for you know possibly two years they have to do something this the current sidewalk machine is it's just it's falling apart so this is their recommendation several pieces of equipment I get playing around with it a little bit last night but I mean you know that's just a lot of money plows sidewalks with yeah it is the other one we had budget and I was just kind of starting to break into it last night like maybe like a cabota type style tractor with a blower on it because at first I was like oh you're salting the sand I'm like oh there's no salt sand on this so basically this is attractors blowing snow right right it also can do and it's not like we're making up Woodstock that has all these sidewalks I mean we only have Doug what have we got miles worth the sidewalk you know you have more than a mile but also so it's I don't know that just the numbers to me seem very high to invest in that well let me tell you that they brought in another machine that was strictly a sidewalk machine and it was less versatile and more expensive the price of equipment is nuts right now and skid steer which is what they originally thought they would like just like I said isn't as versatile and they've looked they've been looking for a while so we don't generally sand or salt the sidewalks I mean certain areas and they can do it with the truck which is what they can do now but I don't know exactly what you think they could purchase other than this for I'm just I mean again help me out here like we're not salt and sanding so all we're doing is just snow blowing yeah the walkways I mean well but I think that there's a better option that doesn't cost there's not $60,000 I mean this also has a sweeper broom attachment which because we don't currently have the option anymore has for exist could be used I believe that this can be retrofitted to clean out under guard rails and so there seems to be more options because obviously they compared it to a skid steer and a skid steer was 74,000 404 skid steers not the right no and they patient for that that's just what the they had looked at originally and then they did look at a sidewalk machine itself a fancy one like Randolph and I think that was like 115,000 so and again if we're not sanding and salting much do you really know this seems like a point where you're at overkill I don't know I'm just I get this vision of like a Kubota style tractor with a snubbler on it that you could probably make brand new for 20 25,000 dollars or something now I don't think not for 25,000 not the price of equipment right now I mean if you look at like we had budgeted we were looking at like equipment pricing and we I mean we were looking at a greater and you saw the price on that thing but even just doing the truck that we purchased the Western star already looking at a huge jump we paid 198,000 for the first Western star now a couple years later we're gonna pay 257 8 so and it's the same truck just a different year and so it it's just it's nuts I mean and then even the guys went to the Municipal Road show up in Barry and they didn't even have much equipment there at all usually there's a whole bunch of equipment you can see and there was hardly anything they were back within a couple hours I'm like where didn't you guys go they're like there was nothing there people either couldn't get it or as I'm back where they had nothing to show so COVID is just you know still it's an issue so you know the Equipment Committee is obviously made up of yes Morgan's on a AJ's on it but Ryan Slack Jeff Gilman Moe Brigham Ray Blakeney you know and this was all their recommendation to move forward that's what these guys they do they deal with equipment so in a lot of ways I hear what I hear what Chris is saying but I also do think that we have tasked the Equipment Committee with you know doing that legwork for us and then bringing us recommendations and we've also been discussing this three or four years now and haven't come up with a better solution and have it you know and it's like we're limping along and as as somebody who uses the sidewalks regularly it is it has just gotten worse and worse each year and you can tell that it's a failure of equipment and it's somebody who has to constantly answer to other users of the sidewalks it's like it's it's yeah it's almost sort of like we're at a point of shame on us that we haven't done better we've known it's an issue we and I know that we've had a lot of reasons for why we haven't done better but I also think we sort of need to just make a decision and move something forward and to me that's what the Equipment Committee's job was was to bring us the recommendations to do that research what they do I mean these guys all know equipment and they were unanimous in their decision they also that you know they had they had tasked the road crew initially with or the guys looking at prices for a skid steer or something else and then or just a sidewalk machine and then when they saw the prices then they were like no I guess not let's go back to the drawing board and then they came up with you know somebody wanted to skid steer somebody want to track so they tracked down AJ and Morgan track there's a vent tracks for sale 15,000 yeah right well you think all ventracks one of them I don't think so it might be ours yeah so it's going around I know yeah exactly yeah yeah put some sand in your wagon yeah so what's so what's the lifespan of that of something of that caliber let me see if we have a replacement for it in see so 2023 we have it so about seven eight years we have it on the schedule to replace in like 2030 so you try to keep the equipment for like eight years huh oh okay I can't plug mine for about eight so anyways yes I'm sorry gene seven eight years which is about the equipment you know life of the we're looking to get over so in the schedule that I had worked on our schedule and then Ryan slot came in and that would be and I'd taken some notes after he went back and thought about it and send me something else from the state so so if we amortize that over seven years right 70,000 we're talking 10,000 a year yeah because this is currently yeah this is a $60,000 purchase so yeah so anyways that's their recommendation I agree with my and I know Morgan AJ agree with the recommendation so they've looked at you know at least three options different options and this is and they did do what we asked which was you don't have the money so stop you can't buy new all the time so we're trying to make a little bit of money stretch but also in Chris's request I'm trying to work with them to come up with a bigger schedule because Chris had said just tell us how much everything's gonna cost and that's what I'm trying to work out now and I'd sat down with them and then AJ went out and got a bunch of new pricing so we have a better idea but the pricing increase was ridiculous anyway so I don't know if you want to call that for a vote will they blow snow too yes it does have a snowblower Paul but we'll blow snow Paul onto if it's directable it doesn't have to have a blower it also has a V plow but I know in other towns if it has a snowblower you can blow it onto people's lawns obviously not in their driveways we do you know but if you forgot a place of an area then you just blow it up on the hill or on the lawns or whatever so we could pass an ordinance that tells everybody they have to shovel their own sidewalks but you the energy the equipment committee asked you you guys said no I want to save just 60 grand when we've discussed that is that there are these long stretches of sidewalk that aren't affiliated with an owner the bridge right there's sort of these huge swaths that then yeah for pedestrians it makes it impossible and so I still am against that just for the sheer fact I know but I think it's good to bring up the reasons that we've talked through exactly yeah no no they were just because they were they were trying to save money so anyways so I don't know what you want to do here but maybe go for a vote I lived on Church Street across the road the guy was plowing the snow and plowed it up and to clear his plow little plow thing he was plowing it underneath this woman's tree and man it wasn't pretty when she came running out because he did smash up a few little branches just trying to push it and the branches were going and it was heavy wet snow and yeah snow blower be nice if it could blow it into the back of one of our trucks as well well not be handy what you might be yeah well like you see them do that especially on yeah big trucks do that and especially going down the the sidewalk here on Main Street you got a yeah they can practice somewhere and get it right into the back of the truck we still have quite a bit of sidewalks on the street street to the center and they went through with a snow blower that blew it into their dumps and they hauled it to a parking lot when we would fit in an upper peninsula they have them on the highway wow oh yeah no kidding you burst monster I bet I want to fall down in front of that thing no pedestrians on this street anymore yike yeah yeah I don't remember I don't think I made it no I remember even though they said but I me I'm sure Morgan told me don't I wrote it down let me look no either private I don't think it was another town I think it was a no it wasn't it was a they found it through a I think through a dealer dog I'm looking to see if I wrote down all this information these are pictures we have this is like a what the machine would look like yeah one right here yeah it's not of this machine in particular yeah of course Doug can have whatever he wants you heard that right no I missed it yeah that's exactly yes I think this is what I had I just yeah I had the new one pictures in here but like I said it's used so you look for a way to talk about here you want to answer the question no trees you don't know all you want but I'm just saying I just found one point yeah but you can't say the same thing I'm not saying they do I'm saying that these guys have looked at their options it was approved by the equipment committee and are recommended by the equipment committee by a brand new Kubota for 24,000 plus 5,000 for the blower attachment so you're 30,000 brand new tractor yeah for one of the attachments what about the others what are you gonna use the ones for sweeper the brand to use that stuff probably have we all know we're not gonna use that I don't know I you don't want then just say no I am gonna say that but um I'm not saying no to a sidewalk I'm the same no to this sidewalk plugs I think that's ridiculous yeah I used version of that it's not that it's not this size I can't tell you that all I know is that it is a what I can tell you is this is a 2019 2020 Whacker Newsom with 300 hours includes a blower sweeper from the blade plow and forks as far as the other you know they I'm sure that they discussed it at the when we were at the meeting but if they had said that it wasn't it didn't you know if they talked about motor size and this and that and the other I would have got would have been on my head I was just taking it with the head of an actual picture of the actual machine that we purchased no I do not know that's all I have but this right here is too big yeah well yeah exactly well like I said they they measured they just they even did snow with it they someone brought it here they did some snow removal so they've tried out the machine it's not like it's nothing that they haven't you know they actually did look at it so all right right is your what I know so bring a just need a motion to approve the equipment committee's recommendation to purchase the 2019 2020 Whacker Newsom with 300 hours for the price of 59,000 816 so moved all in favor I'm gonna say nay you can't you already participated in the discussion and you have no financial gain so you can't and Dave's not here so you cannot sorry Jean all right I just have that money I think I think there's better ways to do it I really think that we could get something for half the price if we look below harder I can I can't say on that they've been looking I can't I mean I'm saying five minutes I've already found something that was half as much what was it I'll write it down it's all Morgan I mean I don't know why we need a Cadillac to go I'm not yeah so tell me what it was you found so I was looking at a Kubota it was pretty simple open cab Kubota open cab 25,000 yeah I mean you're about 30,000 with the blower I mean that's brand new all right well I can ask I mean I know how these things go I know a guy it's got a guy you know I don't know I do here roll it up you know like it you know but I think it's way too much well I'll talk about it but we voted so there you go why what it is all right moving on how many of you are no if you miss the greater so we need to talk about the greater no we're all done so the greater is in has some issues right now and what we are waiting on is we had what was called a it was called like a planetary kit of different oil samples that you can take through the for the transmission for the engine for this because we've had some issues we're getting getting trans fluid into the in with the oil so it's obviously we have a problem with the motor but what the equipment committee had asked the AJ and Morgan and Todd to do was to get this planetary sampling done where you can do everything and I have not I did not see Morgan today but as of frat Thursday or Friday they did get some test results back that said that the transmission was good because one of the things is when you're doing the motor it's makes sense to deal with the transmission and any other issues you know once you have it apart because if the transmission goes after you have to come into it so the equipment committee asked them for more information so once they get that the equipment committee will meet again but they did no tracks I think it was no tracks did come and look at or maybe it's John Deere came and looked at the greater and it's on the low end it's going to need maybe forty thousand dollars worth of work so that's obviously more than that piece of equipment is worth right now but the equipment committee is trying to balance that out because some of them feel that some of the new graders have so much technology that it's almost you know overkill or something to go wrong so we talked about a lease option through John Deere and you can lease but it's not like it is when you buy a personal vehicle it's you don't buy a portion of it you buy the whole thing so it's really just a financing option so I have I assumed I took a guesstimate on their interest rate obviously I think that we'd be better off borrowing money by going to the state of Vermont municipal fund because their equipment fund because that's only two percent interest versus me estimating you know the difference that saying I think I had said 5.5 percent you could with the 5.5 you could do the whole purchase price whereas if you do the went through the state municipal equipment loan fund you have to pay you have to come up with a down payment of 25 percent so obviously there's a significant savings in interest by going through the municipal equipment fund but we'd have to come up with that money up front which is tough you do not have to go to the voters if you're gonna borrow money from the municipal or from the states municipal equipment fund you don't have to go to the voters for that obviously you'd be budgeting for the payment and what years are greater I can tell you it's a it is a 2007 yeah John Deere greater what size blades on it I visit 13 14 what side laid 13 foot blade 14 so they just looked at they had a they are going back and getting the only received one price so the equipment committee did task them with going back to look at pricing on a Volvo and a cat and for different pricing on a on the greater and don't forget a few years ago maybe three the equipment committee had asked and you proved I think they spent 10 grand on doing some repairs to the greater but obviously when you have fluid in the oil you obviously have an issue in it so the difficulty is going to become is the timing because if we do you want to do the repairs so that you have the greater option rational or do you just want to move forward with a purchase and go through the loan the municipal you know the state loan and and buy and do that because it's just one of those things you know how much what are you going to spend and something that may be worth you know if you'd be lucky if you got 30,000 for it right now and maybe less if you they know obviously you'd have to make it known there were issues so what actually comes of it yeah you know if you're saying it could be up to $80,000 of work and then down payment with the municipal loan fund would be 98 it's like it's a no-brainer I mean I was at the good news as of Friday there's Friday I believe was that the transmission was good so you know that's a good thing but either way we're looking at either a very hefty repair bill on something that you may be able to get 30 grand for it's just tough and and obviously the equipment committee is working on looking at other options as far as different manufacturers and you know to see about pricing etc but really what it comes down to is I need to know what the select board is the select board willing to go to the state equipment fund and borrow money if the you know obviously you'll have more information in a couple of weeks once we have all the oil samples back and things like that but or we do the repairs you wait you go to the voters in March and then we either kick the grader down the road in the equipment schedule another year or so or it has you know the transmission goes or you know because it's kind of with hours on it I guess it's it's just tricky we just don't know and I and you hate to throw good money after bat here but the key is does is the select board willing to go borrow the money as is your right without voter approval or do you just are you only comfortable going to the voters and town meeting that makes a difference because we will be you know we may we will have to repair it and I just don't know what that price is yes so I just kind of want to talk to about it to see what your feeling was about that yeah that's what I just said yeah a few years ago they did about I think it was three years done maybe four yeah right about 10 grand I think put into it yeah but right now there's and you can certainly ask AJ and Morgan they said what the cost was and now we are looking at putting another 40,000 into it it's crazy I know and it's it's definitely not what we were looking at the equipment committee had hoped that the grader would go a little bit longer but you know they're trying to they're trying to minimize it with this planetary oil sample to see if they can go in and just fix the basic and that could be as high as 40,000 so and where did these numbers come from so what I did was I took their they had a price that the AJ had got a price on this greater right here for a 2023 John Deere 77 2g this is the price he got 394 7 and obviously they're looking for other graders because the equipment committee asked them to go back and then the trader sell is what that the somewhat the repair guy I think from John Deere somebody came up and looked at the greater the way it is now and kind of valued it said I don't think you're gonna get more than the graders valued lesser than the Whacker Neusen yep I'm not believing the story I don't die in a care about the greater or the Whacker now I guess research because yeah so I this is what I have so I can tell you as far as the this is the John Deere price that they that they had I have an actual right here company you could sell that thing on iron planet and more than 30 and that's exactly what probably get 80 or $100,000 for that so iron planet because we even if you have to dump 40 ran into it yeah and we did talk about those there's so many I mean equipment is expensive exactly and one of the things that we talked about was was exactly that was don't take it as a trade that was his estimate at 30,000 I used it because I needed a number that came from somewhere and then we you know whatever we spec out doesn't have to be you know I mean we just need a basic greater it's not a lot that the hard part is right now we don't need all the automation and all that stuff I mean there's no need for any of that stuff and even the guys don't want that right but even the equipment committee doesn't want it but sometimes you know to find what you want it's like if we want to buy a truck tomorrow where we crank down our own windows and how to manual lock you just you can only find what you can find but the bigger question here is the equipment committee needs some idea on next-step recommendations what is the select board willing to go see how good this Whacker Nelson does on the great roads I guess because that's where we just dumped all our money right Paul this year as well this winter because the greater was was a plow so it did get a lot of extra more use than it normally would it's very true I mean and you do use it we did it because the international has been down for six months I think the first piece is we need a lot more information so we need exactly the model let's look at the specs let's look at the money involved and how much is a trade-in of ours really gonna look like so I will ask Morgan and AJ look at iron planet and then how far out is it to get one if they say we can have one to you in a year and a half no it's sooner than that it's like four months three or four months and for this one anyways and obviously this was the quote that they have that they took to the equipment committee and so I have a full full in specs and everything for the equipment committee so really they the greater is still being sorted out what I just wanted you to be if you are totally opposed to going to the municipal loan fund without going to the voters then that's information that the equipment committee needs before they can make a recommendation because if you're only willing to go to the voters then they're gonna have it's gonna force us in a no-choice but to do a repair we'll have more information in a couple of my opinion on that is the voters have already approved an equipment fund that is used for purchasing pieces of equipment right and that's for us to manage that right but this would be a loan payment that would probably come out of the general fund and not out of there so alright I just wanted to know how people felt because obviously there's a lot of moving parts of the greater right now about pricing and reason but this is helpful thank you iron planet because we had just said I said I don't think you should take trades because we used to sell our equipment outright and make out much better they'll send that on a boat over to Saudi Arabia so yeah so that's good so thank you for that I will I will do that iron plants like the largest good thanks I've never heard of it equipment site awesome thank you so the graders just still out there and hopefully in a couple weeks we have more information so they should have all their oil samples back and and then other pricing because like Chris is saying the equipment committee did task Morgan and AJ with going to look at other options of what was out there and what's available so so you know so anyways that's more talking about just so you know because it's gonna be a big one well the Whacker-Newson does have some forks on it so maybe that can help some great work so just out of curiosity I guess if Chris is feeling like the capital fund is there to manage how do you guys feel about going if we needed to go to the municipal loan fund obviously that the state run program it's 2% it's better than a deal we're gonna get in the open market do you feel that you have to go to the voters or would you feel comfortable going to get alone well after reading what we have to go to the voters for it looks like we can make up our own decision obviously without going to the people just aren't comfortable with us I'm just trying to get a feel for how you feel I mean I think sort of like what Chris was saying you know they've created that this like work I think then it then it becomes we're voting in the best interest yeah I just want to make sure everybody is comfortable I mean we all get sticker shock but no doubt it's not like I mean if they voted down and say no greater and the greater goes down then we're not great no no great I will say this right I mean it's true and they contracted out and it costs you all kinds of money so and that was something else we we looked at was you know I did look at contracting out sidewalks and he I asked Rochester because they contract out their sidewalk work but they person they contract to has basically they're their clients so they store it and and they have not a lot of sidewalk in Rochester and I believe they were 18 between 16 18,000 a year and I was like yeah yeah I know so I did look at that option for whatever it's worth when the costs for repairs begin to exceed the value of the equipment yeah I think it's time and then we can have a better idea because I do think that sometimes the trade-in value that we get is less than what you get certainly I mean again I agree that you know we need something to plow the sidewalks with and I agree that we need to look for you know move forward on a greater fix but I don't know if the proposed pieces of the equipment were the way to go the other thing to use the more digging here but take say 30,000 on the sidewalk thing yeah and maybe you're at a deficit because there's already been multiple equipment committee meetings and they have looked at specs of other things that they haven't agreed upon which you aren't provided to with because they're the ones making the recommendation so perhaps that's a I will try to deal with that in the future and not do that all right town managers report so we did agree to the true up of 37,000 540 38 we will send royals in their check and then we'll keep our half of the same amount so we've now that they took you know the audit just barely they just barely finished the audit yes we had agreed on a portion of the price and the negotiation so yeah yep basically yeah no she had built well we built it into the value of the purchase price and then basically what we did is we just took the cash on hand the receivable and are just you know basically splitting down the middle because he's really all that was left so so no they were fine let you know that Coy Hill was arrested for burglary grand larceny unlawful mischief and operation of a motor vehicle without owner consent for burglarizing the town garage so we'll see what happens there they've already been charged with something else but so that gentleman was was caught we also were the recipients of a hundred trillion dollar civil suit and obviously we're making a motion to dismiss it was he just tells us that after we buy the sidewalk yeah exactly and VLCT passive is obviously defending us from that claim and we have we're working with an attorney that they chose Brian Monahan nice guy I've dealt with him before and they're just gonna issue obviously we'll be issuing a motion of dismissal this is something that really has nothing to do with the town there's no dammit just know nothing this is I don't even know how we got caught in the periphery of this but the person who's doing this apparently sued 20 to 40 people and including the judiciary system and the court system and so so we are dealing with a in the process hopefully that gets submitted the end of this week so we will that's where we're at with that and then tomorrow morning 9 a.m. we have the Richard and I have our first meeting with Hebrew construction and so we'll have a little more information about that well it's too bad they wouldn't the court wouldn't just release that coy person to us for community service thousand hours or so because you know how it's gonna go he's gonna go to jail for 60 days and get out he'll be back into the town garage in two months well the interesting yeah they don't care at this point no the conditions were the a he had to go to court when he was told yeah we had to stay 300 feet from the Bethel town garage yeah yeah and you know and then he wasn't supposed to drive seems like right now he's a law-abiding citizen he's gonna he's gonna follow these rules too yeah it's like and he's not supposed to drive but he was already criminally suspended that's why I told Teresa said what you do is you go to his hearing you go to his hearing and stand up and say your honor you know we don't believe that this gentleman should go to jail but however we would like to keep him for 2,000 hours and have some community service in our town right make it work it off they can paint fences and mow lawns weed whack there's all kinds of stuff we do we could say all kinds of winter maintenance stuff yeah so we'll see the only thing that we may get is that I'm going to do the victim statement so hopefully we will recoup our deductible because despite this we end up with a deductible so hopefully we'll be back yeah unfortunately so it's just I don't know it was a week for that stuff I guess and you had some trash ordinance pieces that you put in the packet yeah half dozen of those yep so people that like most of them had already responded back to you or have cleaned it up yeah that's good yeah one individual which and one may I think actually let me see who's might be missing one that yes one I have no response yeah and then everybody else is working that's kind of the way we had hoped yeah it would work with me tell you to clean up some stuff and you go do it yeah I had one gentleman who came in a couple days later and he was like it's all done trees and I mean this was like a significant amount he was like I'm all done it's all cleaned up and I'm sorry I got behind and explained his circumstances and was done like hell so people have been really great about it that's good because the intent was never really to panelize somebody you know yeah so what happens with no response nothing yet I'm gonna have to I know why because nothing yet because her letter came back just after I did the packet so we're trying to find a new address so it wasn't delivered so Kelly was contacting the post office to find out what the deal was and if I had a situation prior where the person did not have a mailbox so I actually hand delivered it and put it up against their door and put a shovel up against it so that there's no shovel so I will hand deliver it if I need to give it to mark and all his other hand now I didn't know at the time I came over that way it came out I didn't realize it had come back so we're still trying to locate an address and if so anyways once we find out we'll resend it and then if nothing then you know then I'll do a certified mail because my experience people open their regular mail sometimes certified mail especially in the town they'll just let it sit there so yeah and I can also have I would turn over to Oscar too because in the charge of events he has the right to enforce so we could do that too hopefully doesn't come to that yeah well the only one that he had to sort of enforce he cleaned it up with a guy yeah and that same gentleman took care of it himself this time so if it comes to it the town can clean it up and then we'll attach a lien on their property and take them to court just a whole thing all right and we had some committee minutes we had energy and Brett committee that were in the packet and any other business to come before the board we will we will enter a into executive session to go over town manager's evaluation but tonight it'll just be the board only right yes